Scandinavia editionhttps://youtu.be/9je6y06KWFcThis thread is for the discussion of music in the Western classical tradition.>How do I get into classical?This link has resources including audio courses, textbooks and selections of recordings to help you start to understand and appreciate classical music:https://pastebin.com/NBEp2VFh (embed)Previous thread: >>123722678
brahms
I love WagnerI love BrahmsI love MahlerI love Bruckner
>>123751823you love cock
>>123751830Especially yours :3
Reminder
>Bachpure ethnic hungarian>Schubertfirst generation czech immigrant>Haydntried to hide it but he was croatian
Favorite recording(s) of each of Brahms' symphonies?
I love Wagner, I love anime lolis and I'm a weak beta male IRL. Cry about it.
>>1237518881: karl böhm with berlin (NOT vienna)2: charles munch or pierre monteux3: bruno walter4: van beinum or markevitch
>>1237518881: van Beinum2: Monteux3: Walter4: Kleiber
>>123751906terrible taste.
>>123751914i’d love to see you do better
What is your favorite requiem?
>>123751936Brahms, then Berlioz, then Verdi's, then Durufle's/Dvorak's.
>>1237518881. Giulini2. Karajan3. Walter or Jochum or Klemperer4. Kleiberbut honestly I love tons for each
What would have Beethoven thought of Wagner?
>>123751982fucking horrifying
>>123752001pls no bullycurrently playing Kurt Sanderling/Dresden's Brahms' Tragic Overture into 3rd
>>123752045i will bully anyone who likes karajan’s brahms
>>123752117What is Karajan good at?
>>123752185Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, Strauss
>>1237518881. Bohm, Beinum2. Munch, Kleiber3. Steinberg, Walter (either stereo or mono), Mengelberg4. Markevitch, Beinum, Furtwangler (1948)I've come to the conclusion that if you play Brahms' second symphony with the first movement repeat tha, it pretty much just fucks up the entire interpretation. Due to the extreme length of the first movement with that repeat, there's always inevitably some sort of sense on the part of the conductor to rebalance the entire symphony, causing all the other movements get longer as a consequence and it can really drag the whole thing down. As much as I love Monteux's recording of the 2nd symphony, especially since we have so few Brahms from him, I can't help but feel as of it suffers somewhat due to that repeat. Good reference, though. I should probably re-listen to his mono San Francisco recording of that piece, because from the timings at least it does seem to be a little bit more jubilant.
>>123752185NTA but I'd say Karajan is good at many things, great at a handful, the best at a few. Granted, the ones he is best at are masterpieces.>>123752117You don't even like any of his?
>>123752216Interesting, thank you. Didn't even know Kleiber had a 2nd.
>>123752185bruckner, strauss, and then mostly 20th century repertoire like sibelius, the second viennese school, prokofiev, honegger etc. >>123752225no, he’s one of the worst major brahms conductors of the 20th century.
>>123752238He has a few actually. All of them are live. The one that I particularly like is probably going to be the 1988 Vienna recording. There's a few others, but I feel as if that one's the best. It was actually set to be commercially released initially, along with an Ein Heldenleben. Unfortunately, due to Carlos's extreme autism, that never came to fruition.
>>123752216brahms is really best played without exposition repeats, the man himself said it.
https://youtu.be/ylSrzlphVq0Thoughts on Scriabin's piano concerto?This concerto is controversial in that it has provoked comments as diverse as any could be. Here are some:It is frank and has pure outbreaks of emotionMy favourite ScriabinIt makes me cryIt is a great piece; a lovely concertoAs good, if not better than Rachmaninov.Scriabin is a god.SublimeProbably the worst Piano Concerto ever writtenIt is better without the awful piano part.It fails because it imitates Chopin.The theme and variations of the slow movement are truly beautifulDrivelShould have the Victor Borge treatment to improve itTruly awful music but it relieves my constipationMany of we concert pianists will not play it – not because we cannot play it, but because it is sucha poor piece.Melodic nullityThe best bit is in the finale which we now know was written by and orchestrated by Rimsky.It is a piece that makes many physically ill. To listen to it is torture like having your testicles or breasts electrocutedThe most boring composer... ever Marvellous cure for insomnia.I would rather shoot myself than hear this again! It is just notes, just bloody notes! Well, you make up your own mind. These are not my personal comments.
>>123752245How's Bernstein's Brahms? Was gonna be the next cycle I try.
>>123752255Love Scriabin but that piano concerto is so, so boring. Maybe I just haven't found the right recording.
>>123752255thanks for the wall of useless text scriabincel>>123752258godawful, the last thing brahms needs is to be dragged out and caricaturized.
>>123752258It's actually a pretty good cycle to listen to because I don't think there's any other Brahms out there that's interpreted quite as horribly as Bernstein's Brahms. I'd rather listen to Norrington.
>>123751888Abendrothhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhOUX0_TBTEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSvMESCoz4E
>>123752282thanks hisstranny
>>123752272>>123752270lolol alright. Yeah I figured it was probably no good when I didn't see even Hurwitz list him as a reference recording for any of the symphonies given how much he loves Bernstein, unless I missed it.
gonna walk to the store for a cheap beer while listening to Bach's Motets :)
>>123752286
>>123752282I'm a big fan of his recordings of the third and fourth, and even the first, but unfortunately, Abendroth always got horrible recording quality. East Germans didn't really start to get great sounding recordings until the 60s unfortunaty.
>>123752297thanks hisstranny
>>123751806holy shit, that illustration is from my childhood book. thanks op for reminding me
Scriabin had these disorders. He was mentally ill.He believed that the world could and would only be saved through art. He suffered from hallucinations that is to say seeing things that were not there. There are also voice hallucinations usually associated with schizophrenia, mania or other mental illnesses. He said that the world would end with everybody involved in a sexual orgy. Men would be shagging men aswell as women and little girls and everyone would be happily involved in gang bangs. He said that all his music contains eroticism although he called it ecstasy. He was narcissistic. Narcissism is another serious personality disorder of being excessively preoccupied with self and self interest He was a megalomaniac. Megalomania is a very serious psychopathological disorder characterisedby personal power and self-importance. Not only was he into spiritualism but other dangerous cults and promoted them.He was effeminate, a real pansy. Effeminacy refers to a trait or traits in men which are historically and traditionally feminine.He was a notorious drunk and much of his music was written under the influence of alcohol which resulted in poor quality and incoherence in his music. Like Nietzsche, he campaigned against morality so he could force sex on any girl or woman. He resigned from the Conservatory over yet another sex scandal. Not only was he a paedophile, he was a rapist.
>>123752325you left out the part where he was an incel
>>123752337read the last part
>>123752325Literally me
>>123752325>Not only was he a paedophile, he was a rapist.Source? Also Nietzsche wasn't a rapist, wtf
>>123752255They are okay. Don't strike you in the head. I guess if you unconsciously start humming a tune, you can say that the music has damaged you. Scriabin fails to do that, atleast to me.
>>123752325>Like Nietzsche, he campaigned against morality so he could force sex on any girl or woman. He resigned from the Conservatory over yet another sex scandal. Not only was he a paedophile, he was a rapist.holyfuckingbased
>>123752373Nietzsche slept around. I read somewhere that he raped a prostitute.
>>123752325In other words, he was /our guy/
>>123752390>raping>a prostituteimpossible.
>>123752390None of that is true. Furthermore, the whole death by syphilus is also spurious character assassination with no real evidence.
>>123752255>As good, if not better than Rachmaninov.This got me interested. So far I've only went through Scriabin's sonatas, symphonies and some smaller works. Will be checking this out
>Scriabin arrived in New York in 1906, having abandoned his wife in Russia, and was soon joined by his mistress. But he discovered that his amorous wrongdoings would have career repercussions, as Mrs. Scriabin certainly had her revenge. From 1906 to 1909, Vasily Safonoff, her husband’s former piano teacher and a good friend of hers, conducted the New York Philharmonic. Safonoff took her side and banned Scriabin’s works during his tenure, thus curtailing the composer’s success in America.
>>123752325As an aside, and to reinforce this aspect of Theosophy that appealed to Scriabin, there have been many famous men who have been paedophiles… the composer Benjamin Britten is the most famous and, without doubt, he was the most loathsome man I have ever met. Many homosexual men are also said to be paedophiles, for example, J M Barrie of Peter Pan fame, Lord Montgomery, Baden Powell, Laurie Lee, Swinbourne, Lawrence of Arabia, L S Lowry, Wifred Owen, Lewis Carroll, Lord Gordon and John Ruskin are all said to have been child abusers. Britten also said that bestiality was the next step up from homosexuality. He told Walton that if he had never buggered a boy he was missing out on one of life’s greatest pleasures. But it must also be said that many homosexuals do not and would not practise bestiality. I have to repeat here that I do not hate homosexuals. In fact, I have friends who are like this. I am not homophobic because I do not have an intense fear or dislike of them.
>>123752445Based, adultery is a heinous act and one of the great sins.
Kempe might be my new favorite conductor of Strauss next to Karajan, I'm blown away by each recording I hear from him.Don Juan, Op. 20https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkDDunxjwJc&list=OLAK5uy_lB7iqQzPfr_8KqfHPtRjo93HXfnokvlkk&index=10start of Ein Heldenleben, Op. 40https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dysaIdrX8PM&list=OLAK5uy_lB7iqQzPfr_8KqfHPtRjo93HXfnokvlkk&index=10https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lB7iqQzPfr_8KqfHPtRjo93HXfnokvlkk
>>123752445righteous retribution
Plot twist the cock poster is an actual biological female
let's try<---->A superb performance full of fascinating things. One which is excellently played and recorded and deserves to be considered alongside the very best versions such as those by Bernstein, Horenstein, Gielen, Scherchen and Abbado. Zender's Mahler Seventh is that good and I recommend it enthusiastically.
>>123752903>the very best versions such as those by Bernstein, Horenstein, Gielen,LMFAOOOOO
>>123753017you have a good time laffin'?
>>123753054it’s very funny, yes
>>123753017I debated giving the Gielen recording another listen but thankfully I found out about this Zender one. If it doesn't deliver though then I'm just gonna resign myself to the fact that there is no perfect recording of the 7th yet.
Mozarthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rL9BXN7uf8
now playingstart of The Wedding. Russian choreographic scene (Les Noces)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OTpzoKBgFI&list=OLAK5uy_nd5MEVYrZKTLqFAK1piJMGJc8Y488Av64&index=2start of Cantata for Soprano, Tenor, Female Chorus, Two Flutes, Two Oboes and Cellohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBPUZ1i6Zr0&list=OLAK5uy_nd5MEVYrZKTLqFAK1piJMGJc8Y488Av64&index=6start of Mass for Mixed Chorus and Double Wind Quintethttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jEU7s1Twqxo&list=OLAK5uy_nd5MEVYrZKTLqFAK1piJMGJc8Y488Av64&index=12https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_nd5MEVYrZKTLqFAK1piJMGJc8Y488Av64
Maybe autism but one of my favorite little moments during Brahms' 3rd symphony is when the cellos come in during the recapitulation in the finale. I really want to hear them. Not many conductors bring them out as strongly as I like.Toscanini does:https://litter.catbox.moe/j6iu0n.mp3Cantelli is even more extreme:https://litter.catbox.moe/9t6uuq.mp3Steinberg is the best I've heard in stereo:https://litter.catbox.moe/92l8sw.mp3Not really a make it or break it moment for me but still something I'm always listening for.
>>123753195>Cantelli is even more extreme:>https://litter.catbox.moe/9t6uuq.mp3Someone having sex in the room nextdoor or what? That Steinberg recording sounds great though, definitely gonna be the next cycle I check out.
>>123753246Well, it's with NBC Orchestra and they always played in a stupidly dry acoustic, so it probably sounds more taut than it would in a more normal concert hall. >That Steinberg recording sounds great though, definitely gonna be the next cycle I check out.The 2nd and 3rd from that cycle are both very good.
https://youtu.be/JKG8ZxEOdwE?si=Oo0UCf_l92gqLKeHIn Meistersinger's harmonies, one hears the echoes of Bach's intricate counterpoint, as if the ghostly specter of the Baroque master had momentarily forsaken the organ in favor of the opera house.Richard Wagner once said of Johann Sebastian Bach’s music: “That made me what I am. My unending melody is predestined in it.” In Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, Wagner demonstrated to post-Tristan sceptics his mastery of traditional musical forms. Sonorous chorales, an overture which Wagner described as 'applied Bach', a fugally-inspired toccata, an unforgettable quintet and counterpoint worthy of Bach all feature in this magnificent score celebrating the marriage of inspiration and tradition.The whole of Die Meistersinger— shaping itself before our very ears — is Wagner's answer to his critics, a song offered them to meet their specifications, filled with all the things they demanded and found wanting in his other work: diatonic structures, counterpoint, singable tunes, ensembles, folk dances worthy of Weber and chorales worthy of Bach.
Where can I learn how to identify all the motific patterns in Parsifal? Any books analysing the music?
>>123751936Morales
>>123752903The search is over, this is the best 7th I've ever heard.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRKGvkR39FQ&list=OLAK5uy_knhdCb1Mm8yrTR7kfYw_BHC08Los1F780&index=1
now playingstart of Dvořák: Stabat mater, op.58https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tf0oYxPrjc&list=OLAK5uy_m4PqsU9KfKGXxgFsWgp8dLukpfzDpy6sc&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m4PqsU9KfKGXxgFsWgp8dLukpfzDpy6sc
Perotinhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyfdxNIdcW8
>>123751936Brahms
>>123754114not surprising, he has the best 9th too. But don't forget to give Alexandre Bloch a shot as well.
Thoughts on Hans Rott
>>123754477ooo thanks for the shout, on both -- was gonna listen to Masur's 9th tonight but Zender's it is! And added Bloch's 7th, hadn't heard of them before either.
>>123754477bizarre assertion
I just listened to Stravinsky and Wagner back to back and I am disgusted. Going from the sculptural abstraction of Stravinsky to the emotional fluidity of Wagner, and vice versa, was just awful.Is it normal to have a palette clash like this when listening to music, or should I just get used to switching between wildly different styles of music?
>>123754820>to the gender fluidity of Wagnerfixed
>>123754493The ancedote about Brahms giving him a mental breakdown is more interesting than the music we have for him. Would he have been great had he not gone crazy? Who knows. Mahler thought so. But I also don't really think it's worth contemplating.
>>123754820>should I just get used to switching between wildly different styles of music?That is not the elephant in the room. The real problem is volume. I cannot raise and lower volume simultaneously. That is what destroys the piece (especially symphonies) for me.
>>123754973Unless you're jumping between multiple recordings during a listening session of the same work, I don't see how this is an issue. A good recording should be relativelu consistent within itself as far as the dynamics are concerned.
What are some good, lesser known composers of Singspiele?
>Stravinsky was born when Brahms was still writing symphonies and died after the Beatles broke upwhat the fuck
>>123756511this is only hard to believe because the rate of historical change in the 20th century is unprecedented compared to the 19th century and before.
>>123756536The change sucked if I'm honest.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5saZwaSCezw
>>123756511There's a lot of very famous people who were born around the 1880s and died around the 1960s. They all saw the same transformations of society. Carl Jung, for example, who analysed the sexual revolution.
>>123756613thanks tranime avatarfag
>>123756654Not an avatarfag.Also where were you last few threads?
>>123756536Sibelius was a contemporary of Rossini and John Adams.
>start listening to an orchestral recording>people start coughing all over the placeso this is the power of classical, huh?
>>123756946Thats why you listen to studio recordings
Was there ever a pre-microphone attempt at amplifying a single instrument to be played across a concert hall? Kind of curious.
I don't listen to german operas or songs if the singers aren't ethnic Germans. It's extremely annoying listening to amerimutts trying to perform musical pieces like Schubert's Winterreise, Die Zauberflöte or any Wagner opera. It degrades the overall listening experience severely.
>>123757087Concert halls
>>123757316No shit, but I mean if there were any further attempts of amplification
>>123757658Walls of the concert halls
>>123757708:/
now playinghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH8HcV2YXD0
Bartókhttps://youtu.be/uGuE20hKaDw?si=ciIK3ksnEvcX3UCU
https://youtu.be/CWuQbpSiFto?si=ACNSNxwpRmFpifyjIt doesn't get any better than this.
Scriabin https://youtu.be/oFn6202nrqk?si=sYqOg8aSwWSmpKWJ
Messiaenhttps://youtu.be/biJCU8jK3x4?si=44uQisqXyp0GTnIl
Xenakis https://youtu.be/Yu95HFDYkeY?si=EPeHZtJzz0W8o6qv
>>123757002They don't feel as raw, if you catch my drift.
If Chopin and Scriabin are not in your top 5, or at least 10 composers, your opinion is utterly discarded.
>>123758008Good stuff.
>>123758819>ScriabinI don't even know who this guy is.
>>123758819I do love both of them, but I'm just not really into solo piano music much these days and their other work (piano concertos for Chopin and symphonies and concerti for Scriabin) are fine but nothing special.
the best 5th and 7th, no competition here
>>123759086lmao
>>123756729great question tranime avatarfag>>123758819so true scriabincel, so true. >>123759086the best if you like fondling kids maybe
>>123759870>the best if you like fondling kids maybejust like Beethoven, truly in the spirit of the composer
>>123760290schizophrenia alert
Chopincels and Scriabincels unite. Both in harmony and name.
I played minuet in g for my new piano teacher and now she’s making me learn this etude. Seems quite difficult bros, kinda nervous
>>123760624Forgot linkhttps://youtu.be/B24psgm8ibg?si=eUFpTFSjY7J3Zhpm
These conductors should become memes.Albert CoatesVolkmar AndreaeHeinz RögnerHerbert KegelKurt EichhornOswald KabastaOtto KlempererFritz LehmannWilhelm FurtwänglerEvgeny MravinskyIgor MarkevitchHermann AbendrothGuido CantelliErich KleiberHermann ScherchenPierre MonteuxBruno MadernaJascha HorensteinFritz BuschHans RosbaudWillem Mengelberg
>>123760863So who are non meme conductors in your opinion.
How the fuck did Wagner became the final boss of both Classical Music and Literature?
>>123760863https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTaDBUa3F64jej
>>123760863fuckwhacker is already a meme tho
Any recommendations for music that sounds epic, something like Ride of the Valkyries, 4th movement of Dvorak symphony 9.
>>123761425https://youtu.be/zpMdr9nBJc0?si=TlQPngrddzgVdL24
>>123761489I hope you kys fart nigger spammer.
>>123761064>LiteratureGet fucking real. Nobody would still be reading his poetry if it weren't for his music.
>>123761516https://youtu.be/zpMdr9nBJc0?si=TlQPngrddzgVdL24
https://youtu.be/8moYkeBP59cSimply out of this world.
>>123761425Try Strauss' orchestral works, like Zarathustra, Ein Heldenleben, Alpine Symphony, and the singular pieces. And Wagner's other overtures and preludes and such, of course.
let's get chamber with Vanska
>>123761862I always found it funny how this arrangement gets primarily attributed to Schoenberg when Riehn did like 90% of it
>>123762001That's marketing, baby.
>>123758819le emo pianofag
>>123760863memes suck if they don't come naturally.
The second movement of Bruckner's 9th is so strange, there's nothing quite like it except for one movement in the 7th and one in the 5th, which I've similarly found odd but not as much as this one in the 9th. It's like from another musical tradition entirely with its rhythmic, almost hypnotic repetition, like Bruckner drew inspiration from Africa or some other culture with more rhythm-based styles.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejxov8j1kmA&list=OLAK5uy_lSfeor0w9z8JuaB_U8xenyjPv2g83iWl0&index=2
>>123762504it's just a variation on the scherzo of beethoven's 9th you pretentious twat
>>123762533Not familiar with that work.:^)
>>123762533But thank you, interesting if that's the case, I should listen to it afterwards to see the similarities.
Bruckner sucks imo
Really liked van Beinum's Bruckner 8. Is there anything at all like it in stereo?
>>123762839In terms of tempo, Bohm's (not the Vienna recording) is almost as fleet. In terms of everything else? Not really. Haitink has a recording of the 8th that sort of apes it in some ways but it's really characterless.
>>123762574if you're not intimately familiar with beethoven's 9th nothing you have to say about bruckner has any relevance. every bruckner symphony is an extended variation on the structure and characteristics of beethoven's 9th (minus the choral finale obviously)
>>123763012Fascinating, I wasn't aware, thanks.
now playingLiszt: Piano Sonata in B Minor, S. 178https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIrYL_vJUpY&list=OLAK5uy_m3NU_y5riphTs13fI-enucJgOvxl64S74&index=1start of Scriabin: Piano Sonata No. 2, in G-Sharp Minor Op. 19 "Sonata Fantasy"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJR07HKlbIQ&list=OLAK5uy_m3NU_y5riphTs13fI-enucJgOvxl64S74&index=2https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_m3NU_y5riphTs13fI-enucJgOvxl64S74Read someone call this the best recording of this Liszt sonata, so definitely excited.
>>123763081I'm pretty sure there's an opinion like that for every recording
There seems to be a misconception that Wagner was a "bad person" in his life, where nothing could be further from the truth. He was a vegetarian after all, and developed morality philosophically to the extent little do.>Only the love that springs from pity, and carries its compassion to the utmost breaking of self-will, is the redeeming Christian Love, in which Faith and Hope are both included of a—Faith as the unwavering consciousness of that moral meaning of the world, confirmed by the most divine exemplar; Hope as the blessed sense of the impossibility of any cheating of this consciousness.>AFTER recognising the necessity of a regeneration of the human race, if we follow up the possibilities of its ennoblement we light on little else than obstacles. In our attempt to explain its downfall by a physical perversion we had the support of the noblest sages of all time, who believed they found the cause of degeneration in the substituting of animal for vegetable food; thus we necessarily were led to the assumption of a change in the fundamental substance of our body, and to a corrupted blood we traced the depravation of temperaments and of moral qualities proceeding from them..... We cannot withhold our acknowledgment that the human family consists of irremediably disparate races, whereof the noblest well might rule the more ignoble, yet never raise them to their level by commixture, but simply sin to theirs. Indeed this one relation might suffice to explain our fall; even its cheerlessness should not blind us to it: if it is reasonable to assume that the dissolution of our earthly globe is purely a question of time, we probably shall have to accustom ourselves to the idea of the human species dying out. On the other hand there is such a matter as life beyond all time and space, and the question whether the world has a moral meaning we here will try to answer by asking ourselves if we mean to go to ground as beasts or gods.
>>123763150True, but I put more stock into it if they say they've listened to many other recordings of it.
>>123763172t. adulterer
now playingstart of Sibelius' Lemminkäinen Suite, Op. 22https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CliRHWKEf6A&list=OLAK5uy_lw3njNpGeefV69iwZA9cZEkvfYIHQX2Ac&index=1The Wood Nymph, Op. 15https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERkI6BSC3yU&list=OLAK5uy_lw3njNpGeefV69iwZA9cZEkvfYIHQX2Ac&index=5https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_lw3njNpGeefV69iwZA9cZEkvfYIHQX2Ac
>>123763345the worst composer in the world
>>123763374I know, I know. If it makes you feel any better, before this I tried giving his symphonies another try, as the urge strikes me from time to time, and after the first movement of his 5th I turned it off, so boring, nothing even happens, it's like ambient classical lol. But his other orchestral stuff has always been better, so we'll see, don't think I've heard this before and so far it's not bad.
>>123763416>so boring, nothing even happenssibelius in a nutshelli find it endlessly entertaining that conservatories always discuss every other 20th century composer at nauseam. schoenberg, berg, webern, debussy, ravel, bartok, varese, ives, carter, stravinsky, even scott joplin gets occasional mention. but never sibelius. sibelius is never studied in classes. he's never brought up as an example of anything in classes. he was genuinely a nothing composer.
Sibelius' claim to revolution comes not from making the tonal center unstable (which he did, both polytonally and modally, notably in the Fourth, Sixth, and Seventh symphonies), but in his total obliteration of form. Schoenberg latched himself to form and motif as the structure of his works; Bartok did so by creating tonal centers of gravity that didn't rely on standard tonality, and the folk rhythms of Hungary and the Balkans. Szymanowski drifted to folk rhythms of Poland, Stravinsky to just about everything under the sun, but early on he drifted to repetition characteristic of Russian folk music. Ravel loved his dances; Debussy made great use of the major triad, even if it wasn't used to indicate a precise tonal center. Every work must have a precedent, something for the ears to hear and understand as the basis. The basis for Sibelius was the tonal center and the general sound of a piece. The Fifth Symphony seems to concatenate entire sections into one and in one instance it overlays two separate tempos up against one another. The Sixth is semi-structured in typical form of a symphony, but the forms of those movements is subject to severe speculation. The Seventh turns the entire structure of a symphony on its head.
>>123763647in other words, he was bad.
>>123763647It's easy to deny the modernism of Sibelius because it is not obvious. But study reveals the work of an unrelenting modernist that was hiding just beneath the facade of late Romanticism. Sibelius is also a master of rhythm and form, as well of modality. He's a great "quiet" innovator. Perhaps one reason Sibelius has attracted both the praise and the ire of critics is that in each of his seven symphonies he approached the basic problems of form, tonality, and architecture in unique, individual ways. On the one hand, his symphonic (and tonal) creativity was novel, while others thought that music should be taking a different route.
>>123763669a bad composer who was hiding beneath the facade of shitty forms.
>>123763669There are things in Sibelius's symphonies that music had never done before, new kinds of sounds at the outer limits of orchestral possibility. At one pole of his imagination are the evocations of epic landscapes, as in the unforgettable big tunes at the end of the Second or Fifth. At the other, there's the microscopic detail of his orchestration, the subtlety and shimmer of his string-writing-- as if Sibelius had taken the lens of his musical imagination and zoomed in on individual pine needles in the vast forests of his Finnish homeland.The quarter-century journey from the hyper-romantic four movements of the First, written on the cusp of the 20th century, to the convention-smashing single-movement of the Seventh, is one of the most astonishing stories in the history of music. Sibelius started his symphonic life in the throes of a love affair with the Russian and German Romantics, like Tchaikovsky and Bruckner, and ended it by opening up a new way of thinking about musical space and time. His symphonies didn't just brilliantly capture the ghostliness of the Finnish landscape-- they were also way ahead of their time.Sibelius's later symphonies plunge into a darker, interior world, above all with the agonised dissonances of the Fourth. While it's true the Fifth ends with another big tune, a majestic horn melody that Sibelius conjured after seeing a flock of swans in flight, the piece also contains some of the strangest textures in the orchestral repertoire: shimmers, tremors, and shades. The avant-garde experiments of György Ligeti and Iannis Xenakis are simply extensions of what Sibelius was up to in the likes of the Fifth. Sibelius was such a brilliant creator, we are still trying to find out what he really did.
>>123763688i don't think we need music about how much of a desolate frozen shithole finland is, nevermind seven symphonies that say nothing
>>123763688Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations. The completeness and organic feel of this synthesis has prompted some to suggest that Sibelius began his works with a finished statement and worked backwards, although analyses showing these predominantly three- and four-note cells and melodic fragments as they are developed and expanded into the larger "themes" effectively prove the opposite.
>>123763726Symphony No. 7 in C major was his last published symphony. Completed in 1924, it is notable for having only one movement. It has been described as "completely original in form, subtle in its handling of tempi, individual in its treatment of key and wholly organic in growth". Tapiola, Sibelius's last major orchestral work, was premiered on 26 December 1926. It is inspired by Tapio, a forest spirit from the Kalevala. To quote the American critic Alex Ross, it "turned out to be Sibelius's most severe and concentrated musical statement." Even more emphatically, the composer and biographer Cecil Gray asserts: "Even if Sibelius had written nothing else, this one work would entitle him to a place among the greatest masters of all time."
>sibeliusspammers have so little to argue in favor of their pet finngolian monkey that they have to spam walls of text repeating the same tired shtick about "revolutionary form" (that none of them seem to be able to analyze) and "motivic cells" (also unanalyzed) over and overroflmao my ass off even
Holy shit... Sibelius haters BTFO
>>123763781so true sibeliusspammer, so true
Extract from Jean Sibelius's diaryfrom December 1917.Sibelius's year ended in a harrowing lamentation. According to his diary he considered suicide, but decided to hold on for a couple of years more for the sake of Aino and the children. "I haven't heard an orchestra for nearly a year. Neither have I met any people. But - what else could be expected. And Aino is more uncommunicative than ever. Isn't it peculiar that she, whom I love, does not utter a word about the things that are tormenting her. No smile, no laughter for weeks. Everything is greyer than grey. - My whole life has been wasted."The lamentations form part of Sibelius's annual rhythm in the phase of the darkest period of the year, but now the lamentation filled almost one and a half pages. Did Sibelius already sense the horrors of the spring of 1918?
>>123763937certified 41% moment
now playingstart of Verdi: Requiemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKtKgltM_8A&list=OLAK5uy_ku0BOON2ONIFiQaBFMR_fvhDY-JO0PICU&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_ku0BOON2ONIFiQaBFMR_fvhDY-JO0PICUFavorite Verdi Requiems? I still need to listen to the Muti recording. Perused the Ralph Moore survey on the work and here's how he closes:>To conclude, my personal shortlist consists of the following six and obviously excludes worthy historical recordings: Karajan DVD 1967, Reiner, Solti 1967, Bernstein, Mehta and Barbirolli. Beyond that, I leave selection to the reader’s own preference.Reiner's and Solti's are great. I like Shaw's more than Moore does, as well as both of Abbado's, not sure which is my favorite though. Maybe Karajan's will be it!
>>123763977try giulini's.
>>123763989Added, thanks. What do you think of his Beethoven Missa Solemnis and Mass in C by the way?
>>123764007oh so slow and tired. giulini was not a good conductor of the classical era
The sistercuck is falseflagging to make Sibelius look bad.
>>123764131no falseflagging needed, he looks bad on his own.
let's try<----and speaking of Sibelius:>Jean Sibelius, upon first hearing Bruckner's 5th, said "Yesterday I heard Bruckner's 5th Symphony and it moved me to tears. For a long time afterward I was completely transported. What a strange and profound spirit, formed by a religious sense... as something no longer in harmony with our time."
I recommend this recording.
>>123764322i recommend you do some ear training exercises so your standards for intonation are higher.
>>123764388https://youtu.be/N6lnIRh26aA?si=-vH72ATFMjRMaVZX
>>123764445yes, i know their intonation is vague. that's why they're the vague quartet.
Gulda https://youtu.be/FYTQQtwYYbQ?si=FJ8Fj6gTBxjlGsPp
>>123750850The key is to ignore all posts written in lower case(which ironically would include your post but hey ho eggs and omelettes)
>>123751806>Not how you spell Nordic Nation. By a long shot..Were you born Yesterday, OP?- Cuz sure af, looks like it.Do (You) wonder which 1 Naton stands above the other 2 in Song making, As well..?
>>123752255I don't really like any of Scriabin orchestral output. And he's like the least-known composer that get performed quite frequently in Europe. But any of Medtner's piano concerto's? Fuck you, we'll never play that.
>>123764573
>>123763977My favorites are Markevitch, Fricsay, and Currentzis (Yeah yeah I know)There's a recent Muti live one on BR Klassik which is good toohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeFhXT6Eju8&t=411Fricsay's live Libera me fugue is genuinely insane. No one even approaches him here, especially towards the end. Shame it's in mono.
>>123763977https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Br1SfUqwFRo
>>123764573thank you schizo sister>>123764760hisstards will literally post anything as long as it was originally issued on 78 RPMs.
>>123764781https://youtu.be/23u0-MpZFHE?si=NKxfvt8lEx5w7RSd
>>123764491>>123764388Suggest a better one then.
>>123764708>>123764760Neat, thank you. Didn't know Currentzis had one, I like his recordings, though he often sacrifices emotion for precision or flair (eg his Mahler 6 and Tchaikovsky 6) but still good.
Why is Ravel so peak?
>>123764921peak cringe, maybe.
>>123764921Favorite pieces?
>>123764205Goddamn this is my new favorite recording of Bruckner's 5th.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKY1rOD3e6M&list=OLAK5uy_leVnDwRq9AWLOBLpfDieTWatnYuBRkhD0&index=1I mean listen to this Adagio:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wfx0lQXv4JQ&list=OLAK5uy_leVnDwRq9AWLOBLpfDieTWatnYuBRkhD0&index=2Definitely gonna finally listen to the rest of his BPO cycle.
>>123763977>Bernsteinthis album cover is so good
>>123763172Mahler > Bruckner >>>>>>>>>>>> Wagner
>>123764948I just started really getting into him so I have no firm opinions yet but he's a new well to drink from and the water is sweet.
Does anyone actually prefer Mahler over Wagner?
>>123765058Not even Mahler himself.
Me and my friend need to settle an argument. Which is better, Shostakovich's 15th Symphony, or Bach's The Art of Fugue?
>>123765098Shosta 15.
>>123765098Bach
>>123765098Art of Fugue, of course.
>>123764906anything with good intonation>>123764960this fucking sucks dude, i think you've lost the plot. >>123765058just cis people. >>123765098shostakovich sucks cock.
Hurwitz is always right.
>>123765315>this fucking sucks dude, i think you've lost the plot.Nah I stopped listening to Celibidache, I've regained the plot if anything. You really don't like it though? In recent times I've started to not really like the 5th much at all no matter which recording I tried, but listening to that one just now, it blew me away, perfect in everyway, and I finally felt an intense emotional response to the work. Oh well, to each his own.
>>123765315Anyone who uses the term "Cis" is automatically marked as a tranny.
>>123765315You're just trolling about Shostakovich, you either hate music or really just trolling.
>>123765326no, i think barenboim is a terrible bruckner conductor. i don't have any idea how you could have any emotional response to his soft, mushy, lifeless conducting. >>123765331so true wagnersister, so true.
>>123765333it may amaze you to know that there are people with standards in the world who find shostakovich's finnicky faux-mahlerian neuroticism repulsive.
>>123765340>people with standards These people are usually called Shostakovich fans, yeah.Imagine being filtered by an emotion in music
>>123765356my sewage filter filtered out shostakovich's dogshit counterpoint and inept handling of form, yes.
>>123765098stupidest question ever asked
>>123765369Even ignoring the emotional content(which is not far from Mahler either way), Shostakovich is magnificent at melody, counterpoint, harmony and form. Only a sore loser would find him completely repulsive and unlistenable.
>>123765389it may surprise you to know this, rockist newfag, but saying something is "magnificent" is not enough to substantiate your claims in classical music. we usually prefer to back our claims with compositional analysis. go on, post your analysis of shostakovich's 15th, show me where this "magnificent" counterpoint and form is.
>>123765370>bach is the le... greatest! >some scholar said so!>>>reddit.com
>>123765431bait is supposed to believable
>>123765389no Russian composer has ever been good at any of those things
>>123765420You never do that though. You just say everything is dogshit and call people trannies.
>>123765431stop wasting both our time
>>123765461i'm not the one claiming shostakovich is a good contrapuntist, lmfao. no one has ever claimed that aside from newfag slavesloppers.
>>123765336>soft, mushy, lifeless conducting.What, did I accidentally post Haitink's recording? jk. I think it's just right, instead of too dry and severe most recordings of the 5th imo. It's a very warm, human reading.
>>123765492you've been reading too many amazon reviews if you think "warm, human reading" is a good description of a performance.
>>123765326>>123765492The sisterposter dislikes every recording you post.
>>123765523categorically untrue
>>123765474You can similarily claim that Mahler is a shit counterpuntist, it would hold the same weight as your own statement about Shostakovich's counterpoint.
>>123765542a cursory contrapuntal analysis of the rondo burleske would instantly disprove this, which is why no one has ever bothered making such a claim.
>>123765506why, is that music supposed to lack warmth?
>>123751806Sibelius was one of the greatest 20th century symphonists but there are those who dismiss his symphonies on account of their "unconventional use of form". Go and ask these critics what "conventional form" is exactly and why it should be conventional. Their replies will invariably expose them as the anti-Nordic uncultured bigots that they are.Sibelius' idea to use the three elements of motivic modulation, modal polyphony, and pedal points to build symphonic movements was an ingenious solution to the problem of reconciling nature painting and form in the Nordic tradition.
>>123765564it has nothing to do with the qualities of the music in question. a “human performance” literally doesn’t mean anything. every performance is played by humans, so fucking what?
>>123765555>a cursory contrapuntal analysis of the rondo burleske would instantly disprove thisOnly in your mind lmfao.You can make exactly the same claim about Shostakovich.
>>123765584use the right tripcode when pretending to be someone else.
>>123765576only an autist would be unnable to grasp the obvious meaning inferred from a phrase such as "a human performance". You aren't autistic... are you?
>>123765575Keep posting Pathetic Loner
I mean it's true though, Shostakovich plays with clichés most of the time, I find. It's like olive oil, when you have a second and even third pressing, and I think of Shostakovich as the second, or even third, pressing of Mahler.I think, with Shostakovich, people are influenced by the autobiographical dimension of his music.
>>123765594what claim? where is shostakovich’s great contrapuntal masterpiece? certainly not his preludes and fugues, the unresolved dissonances in those pieces are hideous to behold. >>123765600we get it, you changed your tripcode to ban evade. maybe try owning up to your pedophilic behavior and stop ban evading?>>123765607i don’t care what it’s trying to infer, because it fails.
Schubert https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtAAq7PDzQg&list=OLAK5uy_k0KC_YNSSz6VZAO8PO6znlmErfPxBP4qA>>123765584stop ban evading shlomosister
>>123765607They obviously are- very much so lol
>>123765615You are a naive child groomed by sisterposter and his awful taste. I do feel sorry for you, yoh probably can't even read sheet music.
>>123765615Why wait till everyone else has had their fun with olives?
>>123765627what ban am i evading, schizo wignat sister?>>123765631only an indian could use something as elementary as reading sheet music as bragging rights. what next, are you going to boast about knowing your ABCs?
>>123765611That's all I have for today, but I will leave you with this quote:"Critics are like fleas." - Alan Hovhaness
>>123765631The SP enjoys grooming naive children
>>123765631I heard the first cello concerto twice over the years, and I am not saying that it made me physically sick or anything like that, but Tchaikovsky was more radical than Shostakovich. I heard the Fifth Symphony a few years back here in Chicago; it is so conventional. And Symphony Fifteen, this business of long quotes from Rossini, what a poor excuse for some imagination. If we are to play Shostakovich, why not Hindemith?You know, in the history of music, there are composers without whom the face of music would be completely different, and composers whom if they had never existed, it would have made no difference whatsoever.
>>123765630why do autists talk to real people like we care what they think? do they like wasting our time?
>>123765624>certainly not his preludes and fugues,Certainly his preludes and fugues as well as well as symphonies and his other works.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPlTeQD7sfo
>>123765650“I love cartoon child porn” - the pathetic ‘pedophile kraut’ loner>>123765653you’re thinking of the PK>>123765665>b-but richard atkinsonLMFAO
>>123765675>b-but my copium pills!
I have come to save this thread, take the Schoenbergpillhttps://youtu.be/mFvtSGCFVO0?si=euaF8i7nRuWWRPvY
Barenboim is a fantastic Brucknerian
>>123765506lol perhapsI didn't study music so fuzzy, metaphor-heavy descriptions are all I got beyond just saying it sounds good to me lol. A lot of people when talking about Bruckner's music (ie the recordings/performances they've heard of his music) often say things like it sounding like it's transcendent, cosmic music for Gods or cold, mystifying music as if sprung up from nature. Couldn't explain what causes these things in technical terms but I know it when I hear it, and I know what these people are getting at. So my saying Barenboim's approach sounds 'warm' and 'human' isn't a vacuous description in my eyes, on top of tempo decisions which are on point and phrasing which brings out the best of the music, it all just works.
>>123765675Atkinson is smarter than you. Cope.
>>123765697*decenthe is also a decent Wagnerian. His Ring is top tier but the rest is just bad to good.
Wagner, retards, Wagner. Nothing else matters in classical, stop discussing subhumans and discuss the "God".
>>123765675Predictably the SP has no answer when confronted with real evidence so resorts to memeing
>>123765686yes, that sounds about right when you have to invoke youtubers. >>123765697bait is supposed to be believable. >>123765702you know what else works? having dynamics and not softening every orchestral tutti because papa fartwrangler did so too. >>123765703being smart doesn’t make him right.
>>123765714A Wagner fan who doesn't also listen to Mozart Haydn Bach and Beethoven is not a real Waner fan at all.
>>123765718Where is your formal analysis disproving everything he said in his video? I'm waiting
>>123765715real evidence of what, the PK’s pedophilic admissions? of course i’m going to meme about it, it’s too funny not to. >>123765725more like a wiener fan.
Best recording of Janacek's String Quartets?
>>123765718>post analysis hehe>NOOOOOO NOT LIKE THAT NOOO>uhm,he's not right this time because....Could cope ever be more copious? Holy kek
>>123765718>you know what else works? having dynamics and not softening every orchestral tutti because papa fartwrangler did so too.Well, that's just how I like my Bruckner. Like I'd rather listen to Tennstedt's 4th over Bohm's because, again, the former's is warmer and produces a more human performance. Agree to disagree I guess. I was just as surprised I ended up loving it as much, I was honestly on the verge of giving up enjoying the 5th ever again.
>>123765725Wagner is all that matters, not those four troons. I never touched another composer after wagner.
>>123765729his thematic analysis is right. what’s wrong is his interpretation of the music, he fails to account for shostakovich’s unresolved dissonances which would be laughed at by any serious counterpoint pedagogist.>>123765742i asked you to post your OWN analysis, not to parrot a youtuber. go on, don’t you have any original thoughts of your own?
>>123765731He presented you with an analysis of Shostakovich and you predictably have no intelligent rebuttal
>>123765751then stop wasting our time
>>123765756Why?
>>123765750if you prefer turning structured, formal music into a gelatinous soup of strings and brass so be it, but don’t be surprised if everyone else finds your favorite performances repulsive. >>123765757he presented me with a youtuber he parroted. i want him to come up with his own analysis (and i asked for the 15th symphony anyways because that was the work originally being discussed and unlike the same tired Db fugue no youtuber has analyzed it)>>123765762why what? why do serious contrapuntists find elementary unresolved dissonances to be a laughingstock? i don’t know, maybe because they read fux.
>>123765737I've only heard a few but hope you enjoy this one:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOSZQTXXunM&list=OLAK5uy_m9G9h8eCqVqgwg-oNM1fXjUqNmLiD8Hoc&index=1>>123765697I'm coming around to it. I know another poster here is a huge fan of his Chicago cycle, which while I still intend to listen to in its entirety eventually, the one or two I did try were just okay, but this BPO 5th blowing me away means I'm gonna further explore that one.
>>123761064>>123765714>writes chorales and counterpoint as good as Bach>writes operas as good as Mozart>writes themes and motifs as good as Beethoven>writes lieder as good as Schubert>writes orchestration as good as BerliozIs he the ultimate composer?
>>123765797the ultimate trans sister perhaps
>>123765777No your moving the goalposts:>what claim? where is shostakovich’s great contrapuntal masterpiece? certainly not his preludes and fugues, the unresolved dissonances in those pieces are hideous to behold.>>certainly not his preludes and fugues,Certainly his preludes and fugues as well as well as symphonies and his other works.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPlTeQD7sfo [Embed]
>>123765737Try the one by the Pavel Haas Quartet or the Skampa Quartet.
>>123765805you decided to disprove my claim about unresolved dissonances by posting… unresolved dissonances? k lol
>>123765756>he fails to account for shostakovich’s unresolved dissonances which would be laughed at by any serious counterpoint pedagogist.>implying unresolved dissonances are bad>implying shostakovich is not a serious countrapuntists himselfMy original thought is that Shostakovich's approach is more modern and varied than Bach's I - V - I - V's.He combines dissonant intervals, uses unconventional harmonies, and chromaticism. Not always adhering to ""traditional"" or rather "imperialistic" tonal resolutions.
>>123765737>>123765810Ah yeah that Pavel Haas one is very good.
>unresolved dissonancesBeloved and cherished here.
>>123765828>>implying unresolved dissonances are badby the standards of counterpoint pedagogy, yes, they are. even worse is writing unresolved dissonances that don’t exist in a non-traditional harmonic framework and instead coincide with traditional triadic harmony so they simply sound wrong instead of different, which is what shostakovich does. >>implying shostakovich is not a serious countrapuntists himselfno, he’s not, lmfao. >My original thought is that Shostakovich's approach is more modern and varied than Bach's I - V - I - V's.translation: you have no original thoughts and have never even taken a cursory glance at a single bach chorale or fugue. >Not always adhering to ""traditional"" or rather "imperialistic" should have just said you were baiting from the start and not wasted my time.
Just accept that Shostakovich raped your mind and move on.
I've asked before but favorite recording(s) of Shostakovich 15?
>>12376588315 what
>>123765873raped my ears more like
>>123765893Symphony. Already got my favorites for his string quartets.
>NOOOOOOOO YOU CANT WRITE COUNTERPOINT THAT DOESNT STRICTLY ADHERE TO 13TH CENTURY RULES NOOOOOODamn Shosty fucking raped this dude's mind
now playingstart of Bach's Sonata No. 1 for Violin Solo in G Minor, BWV 1001https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNYB20qsNhA&list=OLAK5uy_kXWlM8eDxCV8YOuYPoLOuvVZRnn1FFnuE&index=1https://music.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_kXWlM8eDxCV8YOuYPoLOuvVZRnn1FFnuE
>>123765910counterpoint didn’t exist in the 13th century, musically illiterate sister
>>123765867>by the standards of counterpoint pedagogy, yes,Maybe, if you are stuck in Baroque era.There are no standards of counterpoint pedagogy that do not account for Shostakovich's modernist style, so incorrect.>instead coincide with traditional triadic harmony God forbid someone does something unique and original.>no, he’s not, lmfao. Yes he is lmfao!His legacy will far outlive yours, or any false "pedagogists" you've met in your life(you probably misunderstood them anyway)>translation: you have no original thoughtsYeah I just posted it.>should have just said you were baitingYour entire persona is a bait, you never post anything genuine, even your recording picks suck usually.
>>123765883Listen to Sanderling Berlin if you haven't already
>>123765967I've listened to some of his middle Shosty symphonies but not his 15th, thanks!
>>123765948>There are no standards of counterpoint pedagogy that do not account for Shostakovich's modernist styletoo bad shostakovich’s style is barely even modern; you act like we’re talking about schoenberg’s serial fugues. if writing sloppy counterpoint is enough to be modern then i guess every species counterpoint 101 student must just be modern and not amateurish. >God forbid someone does something unique and original.apparently God did forbid shostakovich from doing something unique and original, that’s why he continued to rely on common practice harmony with added useless dissonances when the rest of the world had moved on some odd 30 years ago. >His legacy will far outlive yoursso will john cage’s, so i guess he must be a master contrapuntist too. >Yeah I just posted it.i’m glad we agree you have nothing new to say. >Your entire persona is a bait, you never post anything genuinecry for me, slavejeet. cry.
>>123765867>and not wasted my time.You mean you wouldn't reply? huh? REALLY?Impossible. I don't believe you. Even now that you think he's baiting, you'll keep replying to him, knowing that discussion won't go anywhere anyway.You're as rational as a potato, constantly in the state of seething.And there you go>>123765981
One could argue that he displayed a complete disregard for the rules of species counterpoint, which demands the careful treatment of dissonance. Shostakovich’s handling of suspensions, passing tones, and appoggiaturas was often brutal, leaving harsh, unresolved intervals that fail to lead the listener through a satisfying resolution. Instead of dissonances serving as purposeful, tension-building elements, they are left hanging, awkward and unresolved, as if he didn't care—or worse, didn't understand—how they ought to resolve into consonance.
>>123766007what, i’m not allowed to laugh at retards on the internet? then what’s the point of 4chan?>>123766035real as fuck
>>123766035Moreover, Shostakovich’s voice leading was frequently muddled. Contrary to the well-established rules of counterpoint, which require independent lines to maintain clarity, his textures often devolved into thick harmonic clumps, indistinguishable from one another. The independence of voices, a hallmark of great contrapuntists like Bach or Palestrina, was often sacrificed in favor of abrupt harmonic shifts that felt jarring and directionless.In short, Shostakovich's counterpoint can feel intellectually lazy, as if he was more interested in shock value than in crafting intricate, logical relationships between voices. While one could argue that his dissonances reflected the turmoil of his time, this does not excuse the technical shortcomings that can make his contrapuntal writing sound amateurish by traditional standards.
>>123765981>sloppy counterpointHas nothing to do with Shostakovich's counterpoint, which are far superior to serial fugues.>rely on common practice harmony with added useless dissonancesBy the same logic, Bach added useless dissonances and we should only listen to Palestrina.
>>123766046In short, Shostakovich's counterpoint can feel intellectually lazy, as if he was more interested in shock value than in crafting intricate, logical relationships between voices. While one could argue that his dissonances reflected the turmoil of his time, this does not excuse the technical shortcomings that can make his contrapuntal writing sound amateurish by traditional standards.
>>123766052>Has nothing to do with Shostakovich's counterpoint, which are far superior to serial fugues.shostakovich's counterpoint is sloppy though, and schoenberg was a far superior contrapuntist, especially in a tonal idiom. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY5NkPYRtfsshostakovich could never compose canons of this quality. >Bach added useless dissonances wrong, because he resolved his dissonances. shostakovich didn't. >and we should only listen to Palestrina.palestrina's music is full of dissonance, what are you talking about? insanely musically illiterate.
>>123766035>often brutal, leaving harsh, unresolved intervals that fail to lead the listener through a satisfying resolution.This only happens to Kraut's sissy ears.Harsh, dissonant harmony CAN be more beautiful than some cheap satisfying resolution.
>>123766097too bad the rules of consonant resolution in counterpoint were codified by the italian and flemish renaissance masters and are the standard by which all (tonal) counterpoint is judged. i'm glad we agree that shostakovich was a bad contrapuntist by every conventional standard.
bored so why nothttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRlnbd76ei8&list=OLAK5uy_lLQ-TFfB-aPYtf4ybM8--e8SfRZfwXKL8&index=1
>>123766080>shostakovich could never compose canons of this quality.Of this average quality, yes. Shostakovich's technique was more intricate.>wrong, because he resolved his dissonances>palestrina's music is full of dissonanceBach introduced more dissonance. Shostakovich was the only right next step.
Shostakovich frequently indulges in harsh, jarring dissonances without the necessary preparation or resolution that counterpoint demands. Classical contrapuntal rules call for careful management of tension, with dissonance used sparingly and resolved smoothly. Shostakovich, in contrast, layers dissonances in a way that can seem heavy-handed and abrasive, disregarding the principles of balance and restraint central to good contrapuntal writing.
>>123766125>codified by the italian and flemish renaissance masters and are the standardWere* standard. Not anymore, grandpa. We live in 21st century.
Another aspect where Shostakovich falters is in the development of counterpoint through clear motivic structure. In classical counterpoint, the interaction between motifs is tightly regulated, each voice having a distinct identity while contributing to a unified whole. Shostakovich often muddles the distinction between voices, letting them blur together or descend into chaos, undermining the integrity of the contrapuntal texture.
>>123766139>Of this average quality, yes.the op. 28 appendix canons are of insanely high contrapuntal quality, even if they don't make for particularly interesting music. your inability to differentiate the two only betrays your musical illiteracy. >Bach introduced more dissonance.no, not really. >Shostakovich was the only right next step.no, because shostakovich didn't resolve his dissonances. that's the part that you refuse to come to terms with. >>123766164living in the 21st century doesn't retcon the rules of tonal counterpoint, unfortunately.
>>123766156>Classical contrapuntal rules call for careful management of tensionClassical, Baroque are past. Modernism, not so.
In classical counterpoint, parallel fifths and octaves are considered fatal errors, robbing the texture of independence and variety. Shostakovich frequently uses parallel motion in ways that can feel lazy or uninspired from a contrapuntal perspective. His polyphony often drifts into parallelism, sacrificing the intricacy and independence of the voices for a thicker, blockier sound that flies in the face of contrapuntal subtlety.
>>123766134I used to think it was impossible to do the first movement of Mahler 6 poorly and in a boring fashion. I was wrong.
>>123766177>no, not really.Musically illiterate moment.>shostakovich didn't resolve his dissonances. Which are completely in terms with the modern standards.>the rules of tonal counterpointThe ancient rules of different era no longer apply I'm afraid.
True polyphony requires a balance between voices, where each voice is independent but contributes to the whole. In Shostakovich's counterpoint, voices frequently feel out of balance, with one voice dominating or others becoming lost in the texture. His tendency to allow one line to overpower the others suggests a lack of control over the contrapuntal fabric, sacrificing the interplay of independent lines that counterpoint seeks to achieve.
>>123766191>that can feel lazy or uninspiredYeah if are musically illiterate>thicker, blockier sound Original and unique. Shostakovich is a genius.
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>>123763726>Sibelius progressively stripped away formal markers of sonata form in his work and, instead of contrasting multiple themes, focused on the idea of continuously evolving cells and fragments culminating in a grand statement. His later works are remarkable for their sense of unbroken development, progressing by means of thematic permutations and derivations.This is actually what Wagner wanted to do in his symphonies after Parsifal.
