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File: 15309462181050.jpg (172 KB, 960x720)
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When a 45-year-old woman’s leg became caught in the gap between an Orange Line train and the platform Friday afternoon, she was in agony. The cut on her leg went down to the bone.Beyond her pain, she had another fear. Shaking and crying, she begged people not to call an ambulance. “Do you know how much an ambulance costs?” she wept.

A few people helped wrap her leg in a compress, Polanco said. Despite her injuries, the woman did not want anyone to call an ambulance, saying it would cost her thousands of dollars.

Polanco, who lives in Lawrence, said she didn’t think the accident was the woman’s fault, saying the gap between the platform and the train cart was too wide.

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2018/07/02/woman-got-her-leg-caught-gap-orange-line-train-and-then-begged-for-ambulance-because-cost/q6gBPV8ujcfH0qLrQ6HjEJ/story.html
>>
Ambulances have always cost money. People have just always been ignorant of this fact
>>
Doctor once tried to call me an ambulance when my blood pressure was "dangerous low" due to loss of fluids from vomiting,
Had to sign a form to officially deny the ambulance, cause fuck that shit.
went next to an urgent care clinic which was more expensive then a doctor visit but not to the insane level an ambulance would have cost. They gave me an IV drip and drugs to suppress vomiting and I got better.
>>
Inb4 if you can't afford it you don't deserve it.
>>
>>267388
Hatzolah/Hatzalah ("rescue" or "relief" in Hebrew: הצלה) is a volunteer Emergency Medical Service (EMS) organization serving mostly Jewish communities around the world. Most local branches operate independently of each other, but use the common name. The Hebrew spelling of the name is always the same, but there are many variations in transliteration, such as Hatzolah, Hatzoloh, Hatzalah, and Hatzola. It is also often called Chevra Hatzalah, which loosely translates as "Company of Rescuers" or "Group of Rescuers."

Hatzalah's model provides for speedy first responder response times. Each Hatzalah neighborhood's response time varies. For example, in Borough Park, Brooklyn daytime response in life threatening emergency are between 1-2 minutes and nighttime response times are 5-6 minutes. In the Beverly-La Brea neighborhood of Los Angeles response times average at sixty to ninety seconds.

In areas where the EMS charges a fee, lower income clientele lacking health insurance may have a reluctance to call for an ambulance unless the evidence of urgency is overwhelming. A volunteer service, with less overhead costs, tends to reduce that reluctance. Hatzolah will often handle "check-out" cases, without charge. In this way, the true emergencies among those check-outs may be recognized and treated quickly, where the caller might have otherwise not sought treatment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatzalah
>>
>>267371
>Be American
>Don't get told to Mind the Gap
>Get hit with $10,000 medical bill before you even get to the hospital
>>
>>267371
Shit wouldn't be so expensive if we didn't have so many people exploiting the system. From druggies and hobos calling an ambo for a ride across town, idiots calling 911 for stubbed toes (yes really), illegals receiving care then just skipping on the bill. And that's just the tip of the iceburg.

All that shit costs money. And guess who the bill gets passed down to? That's right, you, the people who will pay.
>>
I wouldn't want an ambulance for that, either. Unless I am literally fucking 100% dying you can fuck right off with your jewmobile.
>>
>18/7/2
Read the sticky, faggot
>>
>>267418
She had a huge gash down her leg that was to the bone and I'd imagine was bleeding quite a lot. I'd say an ambulance was definitely the best option here. I supposed she could have had someone drive her there if they were okay with the interior of their car being contaminated and needing to be replaced. If she tried to drive there herself there's a possibility she'd lose consciousness while at the wheel from either shock or the blood loss.
>>
When homogenous "multiculturalism" fully engulfs the major cities in this country, there won't be a tax base to fund ambulances or any other public services. That's liberalism.
>>
>>267371
>Polanco, who lives in Lawrence, said she didn’t think the accident was the woman’s fault, saying the gap between the platform and the train cart was too wide.

Not her fault? How the hell is it not her fault?
Why was she not behind the colored rumble strip the have at the platforms edge? It is there as an aid for the BLIND. It is totally her fault.

Just another example of Democrats and their pushing of false narratives to "tug the heart strings."

Pull the other one, it has bells on it.
>>
>>267445
she could have walked it off
>>
Years back I got hit with a kidney stone and the pain was so bad, I thought I was freaking out and thought going to die, as I was vomiting from the intense pain and literally crawled to the kitchen and called 911 (this was in 1998, so no cell phone).

When the ambulance arrived, the loaded me on a gurney and drove me (no IVs or any medical treatment like that) to the hospital emergency room, (two miles away) where I spent the night hopped up on morphine (which also made me puke) and other pain killers.

After five days of laying around the house in continual pain and sleeping 14-16 hours a day while high off my ass on Vicodin, (this was back when they’d prescribe them like candy and they were fucking horse tranquilizer tier) I woke up one morning feeling no pain but needing to piss like a race horse and passed the stone.

About a month later, I was shocked to get a bill for _$980_ from the ambulance company but when I took it in to work, the boss passed it on to human resources dept. and they got with the insurance co. and I never paid a dime.

This was 20 years ago, so I can only imagine what an ambulance costs nowadays…
>>
>>267450
yes, it is the brown man who is responsible for why we can't afford her an ambulance.

>>267573
all 40 million americans living below the poverty line and their children are all at fault; any investment from society is wasted on them

the wealth should be concentrated on folks who make only right decisions and contribute to society, like donald trump and steve mnuchin
>>
>>267371
You faggots still believe in the Trump Russia shit, even though there's little to NO FUCKING EVIDENCE to suggest any Russian tampering, other than a bunch of Vodka drinking, CS:GO playing gopniks stealing a bunch of emails from the brainlet known as Hillary Clinton.
>>
>>267606
>Everyone in his campaign lying about meetings with russians, getting caught, lying more, finally admitting it but saying it was not wrong.
>Director of FBI fired by person he was investigating
>Trump having to be talked out of firing the special counsel mullee by his lawyers
>half a dozen campign staff already charged and trying to work plea deals
>Nonstop damage control being run by fox news and trump family members

But guys, its NOTHING! Nothing is there, believe me! Its all a witch hunt.
>>
>>267841
to be quite honest, if the russians did interfere and throw the election for hillary then i thank them.
>>
>>267841
and when the convictions start falling, the whataboutism will really hit the fan.
>>
>>267850
go drink your bread
>>
Amerifag here. This chick I dated for a couple years was an asthmatic, and she owed something to the tune of $115,000 in medical bills by the time she was 20 years old. She would have an attack somewhere random and other people would call ambulances. Sucks to be American and have health issues.
>>
In the worlds largest economy how is this even a thing... we need to do better America

And don't give me that it's too expensive shit we print money if we wanted it done in ernest it would be.

By sticking to out ideological guns we are falling behind the curve when it comes to health care
>>
how can Americans unironically say their system is better than Europe's?
>>
>>267854
How can that all be from asthma unless she was absolutely terrible at managing her condition?

>>267856
>too expensive
>lol, just print more money
If we just gave everyone a billion dollars, than no one would be poor. Get your act together America
>>
>>267858
She was absolutely terrible at managing her condition.
>>
>>267402
>I'm retarded
Thanks for letting us know. Things are expensive because everyone in the medical industry is overcharging as often as they can.

>All that shit costs money. And guess who the bill gets passed down to? That's right, you, the people who will pay.
Taxpayers are covering the bill in every country. The average American is still paying far more than the average Brit, German, Norwegian, Swede, Frenchman, or any other first world citizen that you care to think of.
It turns out that distributing costs across the entire population is more effective than preying on patients that had good credit. Crazy, right?
>>
>>267371
Her fault for not buying insurance as required by law.
>>
>>267852
go drink your liberal tears
>>
>>267878
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WnS96NVlMI&
When are we going to get Grocery Insurance?
>>
>>267880
still expensive with insurance, with my insurance plan I ambulance ride would still cost me 500$
>>
not much is covered in the US, 80% coinsurance [20% coverage] is very common, then there is the co-pay and stuff the so called insurance just plain doesn't cover. but insurance companies buy the ad space so the talking heads promote it as a good thing instead of the scam it is
"Coinsurance
The percentage of costs of a covered health care service YOU pay "
https://www.healthcare.gov/glossary/co-insurance/
>>
>>267887

imagine there is Soviet Union, where they just take a phone and call the ambulance for free instead to count the fuck out how many dollars it will cost you.

CAPITALISMM WORKS GAUUUYYS!!
>>
>>267903
Sounds like a lot of heroin junkies get free rides to hospitals so they can feign pain and get morphine injections, all on societies dime
>>
>>267921
>things that never happen
>>
>>267967
I can't tell if this post is ironic or not. Because it does happen, and even society pays for it right now if they have free govt healthcare.
Used to I have a buddy that was an emergency room doctor. He would always tell me stories of all these junkies that would come in either off the street or from an ambulance claiming they had massive back pain and screaming and crying. In reality they were just going through withdrawals and needed a fix, he knew it and he needed to move along the patient's so he would give them a shot of morphine and send them home.
>>
>>267968
>it does happen
source
>>
>>267921
Even if junkies did abuse the system is it really better to give everyone the finger just to make sure a few people wouldn't fuck about?
>>
>>267880
Euro detected. Most American insurance doesn't cover shit, especially any reasonable priced insurance from the marketplace. It differs from state to state but I'm currently paying around $5,000/year in premium yet I would still have to pay hundreds of dollars or even >$1,000 for an ambulance ride. Let alone the actual treatment when I get to the hospital.
American healthcare is fucked and a lot of companies don't even offer good health insurance anymore
>>
>>267988
Some insurance companies cover a specific fleet of ambulances, but it's hit or miss whether you'll get one in that fleet, and they still won't cover the fire department branch that comes with them - which, for some reason, doesn't come out of your taxes like near everything else the fire department does. They almost always come along, even for just the report of a broken leg, whether you're pinned or otherwise in need of them or not.

That's what tends to make a ~$500-$2K ambulance bill hit $10K. (Or suddenly make what would otherwise be a covered ambulance more expensive than a used car.)

After that, we can get into the financial pain you'll be in should the nearest emergency room not be in your HMO's network.

Talk to any white homeless guy over 25 who doesn't look like nut job or drug addict, and 9/10, it'll be the result of medical bills, and he'll have thought himself fully covered at the time. During my stint as a social worker, this was much more common than nutty folk with no one to care for them, and maybe 40% of my particular workload.

Insurance is an illusion - get a medical savings account, and keep a bunch of money out of the bank, since you usually can't Chapter 7 over medical expenses.
>>
>>267980
look you blithering faggot, i told you a story that an ER doctor relayed to me.
I also knew a junkie in southern california which would do the same thing. when he was having withdrawals he would go to the ER and claim he has massive stomach pain (which he probably did) and would get morphine or whatever for it.
just because you are fucking ignorant doesnt mean it doesnt happen
>>
>>267985
I generally agree with you but you have to realize that America is the world's number one consumer of illicit drugs and drug-related hospital visits put a massive strain on our society. It's one reason the hospital visit is so expensive because there are so many junkies visiting hospitals and never paying for it
And just between 2004 and 2009 the number of hospital visits for drug abuse doubled
https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugfacts/drug-related-hospital-emergency-room-visits
>>
>>267995
>>267994
>It's the gall-danged junkies I tell ya!
Sure. It has nothing to do with the fact that Americans pay more than any first world country for any given service. I'm sure it has nothing to do with doctors handing out opiate prescriptions like candy either.
>>
>>267995
This can easily be attenuated with methadone clinics.
>>
>>267980
Ask any nurse or EMT who works in an inner-city hospital. Hell, read any blog by any nurse or EMT who works in any hospital at all. Everyone writes about it.

>It is estimated that up to 20% of all ED visits may be due to drug-seeking behavior. “Drug-seeking patients have been known to use large amounts of medical resources,” says Dr. Grover. “They may occupy beds in EDs that would be more appropriately used for people truly in need of emergency care.”

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/drug-seeking-behaviors-emergency-department/

That said, this is only 20% of people, and drug-related ER visits in general only account for at most another 20% I think, so all these "free riders" are only making your stay more expensive by, oh, 66%.
>>
>>267994
>>268104
Why doesn't this happen in Europe? And what's the rationale behind you claiming that having to pay for an ambulance out of your pocket is better than not having to because junkies don't pay?
>junkies don't pay therefore i want to foot the bill
>>
>be Spanish
>Have free healthcare
>FeelsGoodMan.png
>>
>>267402
you're just shitposting but in political talk
>>
>>268212
Isn't the Spanush economy pretty fucked right now and youth unemployment at ludicrous levels?
>>
>>268200
>>268104
Really, I'm not seeing what the logic is here.

Single payer system = The cost of medical care is distributed across the entire population

Private healthcare system = People with money (Meaning you) get stuck with a ridiculous bill because the hospital needs to recoup the losses they incurred by treating patients that could not/would not pay.

Is his grand plan just to avoid medical care altogether or something?
>>
>>268314
Hi, a common error systemic bias error among the unwashed masses such as yourself is anti-market bias. People don't understand the benefits of a market. Another example is people wanting protectionist policies like Trump is spewing out.

Our current system is not a free market, but a cartel system. Free market pushes down prices. The reason costs are so expensive is because of the cartel system.

Single payer may actual be better than our current fucked up system, but a free market system would be far better (and more moral) than either.
>>
>>268319
>Look guys, it's not REAL ancapism, okay? My perfect ideal ancapism just hasn't been tried yet
Fuck off
>>
>>267605
>>>267573
>all 40 million americans living below the poverty line and their children are all at fault; any investment from society is wasted on them

If you are living below the poverty line, you shouldn't be allowed to breed and if you do breed, you lose any right to ANY help from the system
>>
>>268072
This could be solved if you could shop around for prices.
It's the health insurance that's the problem.
>>267883
>>
>>268320
Go back to that video I posted.
>>267883
People are using insurance for things that happen regularly, and are planned. Things like physicals, or chronic conditions, which isn't the point of insurance. That's why I brought up grocery insurance, and the inability for people to shop around. If you call up 5 clinics to look for the price they won't tell you. You can't look for sales, you don't discriminate as to what you will get, you will get everything, after all someone else is paying for it.
>>
>>268354
>>268355
>I need urgent medical attention RIGHT NOW
>but first let me shop around to see which ambulance service and clinic are cheaper, i might shave off a couple hundreds off my 10 thousand dollar bill
>>
>>268368
What percentage of medical procedures are urgent medical attention being required right now?
>>
>>268324
the majority of people with this sentiment never hold themselves to their own standards.
>>
>>268371
most that aren't regular checkups
>>
hospitals and other medical providers have "list prices" that are 5x to 20x higher than what most commercial or Medicare insurance will actually reimburse.

How is this not a scam?

Uninsured and under-insured patients don't have the bargaining power that a large insurer has , so they are billed at the "list price" that no business would ever pay.
>>
Imagine a crazy world where you need "food insurance".

You go to the supermarket. There are no prices but someone tells you that milk is probably covered by your insurance , but if you want it you have to sign an agreement to pay for whatever your insurance doesn't. The list prices for milk is $50. You go to the checkout register and show them your food insurance cards. They can't tell you how much milk will cost you , but you'll receive a bill in a few weeks.
>>
>>268394
retarded comparison. food produce is cheap and mass produced, health require technology, human capital, skills and research and they aren't cheap to come by
>>
>>268399
>food produce is cheap

lol. where the fuck do you get this shit?
>>
>>268399
technology and skilled labor doesn't justify the gap between wholesale and retail prices and lack of transparency.

The administrative overhead of hundreds of different insurers and polices is a significant fraction of costs
>>
>>268403
that's why single payer works the best
>>
>>268404
yes , the Insurance Market has failed at providing health care at competitive prices

contrast with US dentists , mostly pay for service , limited insurance
>>
did you know...

if you have a primary doctor who is in their own office sometimes and in a hospital other times

you will be charged (I mean your insurance will be billed) much more to see your doctor for even a routine short visit in the hospital

medical coding (billing codes) are a game

your insurance might cover a free colonoscopy but if that free exam finds anything to biopsy/test the billing code will be different and your exam will cost $5000 thank you. (some biopsy occurs in over 4 out of 5 exams)
>>
>>268409
telemedicine is vastly underutilized because
of a lack of billing codes
>>
>>267371
If you have insurance they Jew the ambulance companies down to lije 500 dollars-if you don’t you pay full price. Our system is assbackwards -the people that can’t afford to pay get charged more than those that can.
>>
best government that money can buy
>>
>>268426
Ascension Health - owns 76 hospitals in the mid-west US
2017 profits - $1.8 billion dollars
2017 CEO Anthony R. Tersigni earned over $17 million dollar salary
A "not for profit" company

also, did you notice, mega hospitals and pharmacy chains are buying insurance companies (e.g. CVS pharmacy is buying Aetna insurance)
>>
>>268404
Is that you Bernie Sanders?
Bread Lines are a good thing?
When the government is providing food so you half to spend an hour waiting in line for bread is the best?
>>
>>268440
t retard
>>
>>268475
You are talking about single payer "working best" in a response to food insurance.
20th century can tell you why central government planning is so awful.
>>
>>268479
>food ad healthcare are the same kind of products and markets
>free market always produces the best results
>>
>>268489
Name one time a government solution was better than a market solution.
>>
>>267878
I don't understand why you are comparing America with first world countries.
>>
>>267880
A fair amount of insurance plans don't cover ambulance trips. If you got your own insurance instead of sponging off your mom you might know this.
>>
>>267600
I've had 14 stones (no doctor was able to tell me why, I changed my diet a hundred times the no avail, and they eventually stopped showing up as mysteriously as they appeared - still paranoid and guzzle water line crazy 6 years after the last one) and either got driven or drive myself to the ER. All of them were between 6 and 9mm... First one came on in 2007 and calling for an ambulance was already out of the station by then.
>>
>>268493
>what are natural monopolies
>what are externalities
>>
>>268493

Hoover Dam
Federal Highway System
Tennessee Valley Authority
>>
>>268440
I'm amused at how Socialism has become such a nasty word. Less than a hundred years ago cities were littered with sweat shops and no one even dreamed of things like limited work shifts, weekends off, disability pay, retirement benefits. Those things didn't fall from the sky.

If you live in a country that protects you from war, famine, provides you with education, has criminal and civil wars that enable you to work for a living instead of being a slave, then I wouldn't complain about having to share some of your wealth to help others less fortunate. If you live long enough you will be at the receiving end of some of the benefits that you think others are stealing from you.
>>
>>268539
Agreed on all counts. Any remaining apprehension I have towards social programs and taxes and the like revolves purely around the pitfalls of massive bureaucracy, mismanagement of money, corruption, and various combinations of the three. How the fuck do you fix THAT, though?
>>
>>268551
>How the fuck do you fix THAT, though?
Law of Jante
>>
>>268633
You'd need mass cultural overhaul, the kind that would require heavy focus on a societal scale and could span generations. Hell, it'd probably even take generations before people looked around and were like, "Fuck, this is what we need."
I don't know if that's even POSSIBLE in the States. Focus on individual success is ingrained in the people, it's practically taught as a virtue from early youth. I mean, altruism is emphasized and respected as well, but individual success is first and foremost.
>>
>>268636
it has always been that way in the us. Even before the US, in north american colonies, there was a popular religious/economic way of thinking equating money with virtue, and the idea that making money is a virtuous act in itself. They also believed poverty was a symptom of living a sinful or otherwise non-virtuous life.
>>
>>267856
>In the worlds largest economy how is this even a thing... we need to do better America
>And don't give me that it's too expensive shit we print money if we wanted it done in ernest it would be.
>By sticking to out ideological guns we are falling behind the curve when it comes to health care
There's a ton of people that get cheap or free healthcare in the country.

Then there are a ton of working people who don't meet the criteria for free/ cheap healthcare, but they get charged like the rich.
>>
>>268493
The Finnish public school system.
>>
>>267402
the shits expensive because US Health Care is mainly a "for Profit" endeavor.
>>
>>268993
So then why is it that for profit procedures that aren't covered by Health Insurance have significantly dropped in the United States?
Like laser eye surgery?
>>
>>268995
I believe it's because hospitals set procedure prices and want to keep the lifesaving stuff as cheap as they possibly can. They charge more for the uninsured stuff because they know only the rich will go for it.

It's not particularly effective because we still have $5,000 ambulance rides but administrative costs (the primary markup between us and great Britain) are just that bad.

Source: my mother is a doctor and rants about this exact topic. Frequently.
>>
>>269035
You missed the entire point of his argument. Anon said that uninsured things like laser eye surgery are dropping in price and the insured things like going to the hospital and receiving a single aspirin are skyrocketing in price
>>
>>269035
>It's not particularly effective because we still have $5,000 ambulance rides
Also generally covered by Insurance big surprise
It's almost as if there was a contract saying that insurance will just cover anything over x amount of dollars that people can just charge whatever the hell they want
>>
>>269053
>>268995
Because any doctor that can scrape the money together for the equipment can open their own lasik clinic. The whole procedure is fast and greatly assisted by partially automated equipment. Hospitals are often dealing with far more serious and complicated matters.
This is expensive, but it's more expensive in the US because literally everything in the hospital is sold at a significant markup.
>>
>>269059
What's wrong with having more specialized firms who focus on specific ailments and make their money by refining the process and seeing what can be done to cut costs and be more efficient?
>>
>>269092
Because that isn't feasible for many things. Private surgery centers and clinics for minor ailments already exist, but they aren't equipped to deal with more involved issues or large volumes of patients. They simply do not have the logistical support network that hospitals have. If they did, then their costs would probably on par with hospital costs.

Most of these places almost exclusively treat patients that will be able to leave after an hour or two in the recovery room. The ones that perform major surgeries tend to be very expensive and only wealthy clients visit them.
>>
>>267371
>be American
>get shot
>can't call ambulance 'cause it costs too much
>die
>>
>>268528
Did your boomer parents vote for FDR?
>>
>>268528
>Hoover Dam
Giant boondoggle, money could have been spent better elsewhere.
>>
>>269193
>over two thousand megawatts of power and the creation of lake mead
>giant boondoggle

well I know YOU aren't a civil engineer
>>
>>269193
https://www.marketplace.org/2010/05/28/sustainability/why-we-might-not-have-built-hoover-dam-today
Totally wrong
Hoover dam was a problem because the government had different rules than the private market. 100 deaths during construction, any private company would be sued into bankruptcy building the Hoover dam.
>>
>>269159
>crime drops by 60%
>>
>>267392
I'd love to see volunteer EMS/FF make a resurgence.

>>267371
Former paramedic here. All we'd do is apply pressure, give fluids, and charge $1500+.
>>267378
Docs always do that. They have nothing to lose by sending you up the system, but everything to lose if they accidentally don't send that one person.
>>
>>269113
better outcomes for less money

the Shouldice Hospital in the greater Toronto area is a world famous clinic for hernia surgery. Canadians gripe about having to pay about $10 a day to stay there , while foreigners come for difficult surgeries and typically stay a few nights before they're cleared to fly or drive home.

I went there in 2012 and my cost for 2 hours surgery and 4 days of physical therapy was about. US$ 5200. I'm still happy with my choice going there as I received a more modern hernia repair and my costs were not much more than the deductible on my US insurance. I learned about Shouldice because it was a case study in business school.
>>
>>269308
if I needed very expensive dental work I could go to Germany or Israel and get world class treatment for a fraction of the US price.

Sending patients around the globe for medical care isn't a fix , there is much that can be improved within the US to produce better outcomes with less complications and fewer mistakes , infections , etc..
>>
>>269193
The Hoover dam paid for itself
Like several times over
>>
>>268539
Sounds great, except I absolutely do not trust my own government to do the right thing. The US government has shown repeatedly that it does not give a fuck about it’s citizens and actively screws them over at any given opportunity. If we were to have more government services, that would require the majority of the population to have a modicum of trust in the government, and right now it’s at record lows.




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