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Would Look Good On A Metal Album Cover Edition

>>IF YOU ARE ASKING A QUESTION, PLEASE SPECIFY WHICH GAME YOU'RE PLAYING<<<

previous thread: >>92297435

/pfg/ (pathfinder 1e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/RSt0rF0T (embed)
/p2g/ (pathfinder 2e) link repository: https://pastebin.com/1zySxwm3 (embed)
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/3eg/ (D&D 3.X) link repository: https://pastebin.com/VMRsxB2m (embed)

The T̶r̶o̶v̶e̶ Vault (seed, please!):
bit<dot>ly/2Y1w4Md

TQ: Explain kineticist to me. Is dual gates a trap now? Which elements are good? How strong is the class, and what does it do well?
>>
kineticist is so cool to me but it's never appropriate for any campaigns I'm a player in and I'm not enough of a dickhead to show up as that guy playing some totally offbrand weirdo shit
>>
>>92365909
It's not anymore "weirdo shit" than the average caster. Just flavor yourself as a mage.
>>
Kineticist seems cool but my brain can't help wanting to just poach low-level stuff and put it on another class like fighter.
>>
so apparently the latest example of paizo having a completely incomprehensible arbitrary ass-backwards standard of what is and isn't a "D&Dism" and thus needs to be removed from the remaster is that the D&D taxonomy of dragons had to be removed and replaced but the equally D&D-specific taxonomy of giants can just stay completely as is even though the 5e phb literally has a giant on the cover and not a dragon. Genuinely what the fuck is their rationale here.
>>
>>92366829
the enemy is called dungeons and dragons ok not gaols and giants
>>
>>92366901
isn't called tunnels and trolls either but they changed those
>>
God 2e sucks
>>
>>92367105
yeah. but 1e also sucks
and starfinder is the worst
>>
>2e
Which damage types are the least resisted? Need help picking out weapon property runes.
>>
>>92367214
acid, sonic, force/I think they renamed it for the demaster
>>
>>92367214

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19htF0Ipoly7c2AaUECyBaHB5fCwXEkfhQewRUmWgTRo/edit#gid=1897053746
>>
>>92367214
I remember a guy named Exocist (yes, without the R) went through the bestiaries and compiled some tables, but everything he's posted on this subject appears to have been hyperlinks to fucking Discord, which blocks external access to old files now, so this is all off memory (which may be slightly faulty).

Of the basic energy types, electricity and sonic are better off than acid (iirc sonic is better than electricity); fire and cold both have the most resistances by far, but also the most weaknesses (with fire having more of each than cold). Vitality and void have their obvious drawbacks. Force has the least interactions but is typically "priced" differently.

Of the physical types, bludgeoning is best, slashing is a respectable alternative, and piercing is the worst, although overall resistances/weaknesses are rarer for these than for energy types, outside of some obvious staples like skeletons and zombies.

IMO: Sonic/Thundering at first, then add Impactful at 10th, and replace Thundering with Brilliant at 12th. If you're a class with (non-fire, non-precision) bonus damage like barbarian, I'd go Flaming instead of Thundering to trigger weaknesses since running into fire resistance will hurt you less than, say, fighter or ranger.
>>
Im thinking of running a 1 shot in PF1 to dip my toes into DMing as well as to give my DM a much needed break. I want to run a scenario where the players are all forest sprites and need to escort a lost child safely out of the dangerous and fey infested enchanted forest. My main problem lies in making a custom diminutive sized player race. Is it as simple as doubling the size bonuses and penalties for tiny races? How should I deal with HP considering their small size? Would I have an easier time if I just run their sizes as "medium" and simply scaling up all the creatures appropriately?
>>
>>92367666
>Would I have an easier time if I just run their sizes as "medium" and simply scaling up all the creatures appropriately?
Yes, 100%.
To not constantly fuck over your players with enemies having superior reach, consider throwing in some encounters with insectioid fey. Like angry wasps that are the same size as the players or smaller.
>>
>>92365714
It depends on what you want out of the class. Wood+Water later branching to Earth is tanky and gets great support and control options, Air is mobile as fuck and Fire throws dice. Metal is weak compared to other elements and plenty of junction bonuses are also useless.
Multiclassing is a bit weird since you do neither normal strikes or spellcasting, but evergreens like Medic, Blessed One, and Beastmaster work well.
Treat is as a build-a-caster with better proficiencies and no attrition.
>>
>>92365714
TQ:
benefit of dual gate is having a broader selection and qualifying for composite impulses without delay, if your stuff doesn't rely on junctions for scaling you can get more gates (or its level 20 one shot where you are free to pick the retraining on spot and larp atla avatar-state), otherwise you will likely end up leaning on one of the gates more than the other element, like, picking earth or wood armor is still something you would want to de-mad yourself and getting that out of the way early has benefits over starting mono earth/wood since their impulse junction isn't anything to write home about (especially wood)
>>
>>92367950
>mono earth/wood
Also, mono-wood's movement is kinda ass. Mono-earth's got the benefit of being a movement type that's nigh-impossible to get otherwise, on the other hand, so if you really gotta live your Just-Be-An-Earth-Elemental dreams, I can respect that.

Nothing has mono-air beat for move speed, though - 80ft fly with no reactions to movement with it? Yes please.
>>
>Sign up for a game
>Secluded to do a session 0
>half the players 'can't make it'
>"it's ok, it's a session zero, we'll have more for session 1"
>Most of the players still 'can't make it' and don't show up
>game gets cancelled
Why do people do this?
>>
>>92369271
If it's online, did they specify which version of PF? When it's online, it's much easier accidently sweep up timewasters.
If several players signed up thinking it was 1e, or vise versa, then it's no wonder. Also, late spring break.
I've known people who can't stick to schedules or keep promises to save their lives (and I do my damnedest to keep them as far from the table as possible).
>>
So has anyone given Sandpoint a play/read yet? Been considering grabbing it to try and run this summer and wanted to know if it was terrible beforehand.
>>
2e
Since Combat Grab doesn't specify a size limit to the creatures you can grab. Does that mean all sizes are susceptible with or without Titan Wrestler?
>>
>>92370994
Yes. You probably want Titan Wrestler anyways, but yes.
>>
>>92370994
I personally rule in favor of in-world logic over weaponizing the rules of the game against the world like a fucking lawyer, so I'd say combat grab's limitations are still beholden to size
but this is also why I don't GM pathfinder anymore. either edition
they're alright to be a pc in because I can just personally not be a dickhead, but GMing them is just asking to be at war with your players and how far they're willing to take RAW and ignore the fiction of the game world
>>
>>92371044
>>92371047
Thanks, my fighter got hit with a shrink spell last game but he is a Cavalier with a large mount. So while shrink doesn't reduce my range, I wasn't sure if I could still Combat Grab. I do have Titan Wrestler too.
>>
>>92371254

In that case, you couldn't have grabbed shit, due to 0 ft reach. Same goes for attacks if those didn't have reach.
>>
>>92369271
this is just how playing with strangers online is
>>
>>92366829
How do you even have the energy to get so mad about small, stupid shit like this
>>
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So I'm making a Metal/Earth frontliner Kineticist in 2E but I'm stuck.
Combat wise, the class builds itself and is settling solid, but I cannot for the life of me pick a good skill to lean into. being a rock/metal dude the obvious pick would be crafting but I fucking H A T E dealing with crafting in any game.
Nature seems cool but its all animals and plants.
Whats a good skill line for a mainly physical stat character like this? Athletics seems *fine* for all the jumping around but I was hoping that there may be a fun down-the-line skill feat to build towards im just unaware of
>>
>>92372959
Go Athletics, then go into Bastion, using a level 1 feat to get Shield Block to get into it. Then, you use Disarming Block with the metal shield, combining it with the free raise from sustaining from Alloy Flesh And Steel and the Kineticist free sustain feat. You won't need crafting because you can re-up your shield as a single action, and you can use both the Earth and Metal armours to get full plate equivalent and a steel shield - the Earth armour stats override the metal ones, but Earth doesn't have a shield so you can use the metal one. Plus, it beats out the "remove on crit" issue.
>>
>>92372959
alternatively, survival. lean into tracking and terrain traversal.
>>
>>92372959
You would probably just go heavy athletics since your impulses can prone and you can then just grab without map, you can take the earth skill junction, so on.
I'd actually dump out whatever metal you had and just go earth if you really wanted skill actions to be relevant.

Skills on metal/earth I wouldn't care about, I would just take a bunch of crafting investment for flavor.
Then post fight 10 minutes since you aren't refocusing or treating wounds you can either identify magic with crafters appraisal or just repair for your party.
>>
>>92373053
Luckily metal gets access to a shield and shield block via carapace, though I was wondering if you could combine the Alloy Flesh and Steel with the enlarge Earth stance?
>>92373115
this might be kinda fun, niche of course compared to a lot of skills but it would be fitting and I can accept not being the most powerful in RP. Campaign is pretty city heavy so urban survival could be a fun angle?
>>
>>92373158
>Luckily metal gets access to a shield and shield block via carapace
The idea is to get Disarming Block (a level 4 feat) via the Bastion Archetype, which requires the Shield Block feat. Having access to the ability to use the Shield Block reaction is not the same as actually having the feat, unfortunately.

>combine the Alloy Flesh and Steel with the enlarge Earth stance
Nothing in Alloy that stops you using Stances, so you can 100% combine them.
>>
>>92365909
I played an Earth Kineticist whose whole gimmick was that before he developed his powers he was just an EXTREMELY good farmer, able to till crops with high amounts of skill due to his innate connection with the earth around him.
>>
>>92373352
how did you flavor it skillwise?
>>
>>92373368
It was PF1e so I just put a bunch of ranks in Profession:Farmer and used it whenever it seemed relevant.
>>
>>92372959
>>92373158
Oh, worth noting - >>92373217 only really works if you're doing Free Archetype - you dump every Archetype feat you get into Bastion, getting yourself the Dedication, Disarming Block, Nimble Shield Hand, Shielded Stride, Reactive Shield, Destructive Block, Quick Shield Block, all that good shit. Very strong when you're raising for free, and Destructive Block is insane when you can resummon the shield for a single action and no material cost. Only gets better when you use Plate In Treasure to turn it into an adamantine shield instead of a steel one.
>>
>>92373439
I got Bastion and Wholeness of Body on my monk and my GM just decided to ignore me during fights lmao gottem.
>>
>>92372959
I'd go a athletics like other people are saying but also skills ultimately matter very little for kineticist compared to any other class. As the only class with a key score not tied to any skills, and the lowest amount of trained skills a class can have, you're quite literally the worse skill user in the game. A lot of impulses can also achieve things that you normally might need a skill check for.
>>
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Lads, retarded question from newbie GM.
Let's say that Niggerman Mc Nigger, the npc, is trying to grab the PC. His stat block doesn't have the athletics skill for me to roll grapple with.
Do I use a flat level dc of 14 for a level 1 creature as his baseline, and roll the pc's fortitude against that?
How do I proceed for these skill rolls where the skill isn't in the statblock?
>>
Abadarbros I'm getting pretty worried...
>>
>>92374644
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_8TAXtxrKU
>>
>>92374694
Shiiiet excellent, thank you!
>>
>>92374656
>Halfway through
>Iomedae still isn't safe
>They actually might kill Iomedae
Dare I allow myself to hope?
>>
He isn't trained in Athletics, so it's not listed in his stat block.
Paizo assumes you know that every NPC has access to every untrained skill action, and that you'd just use their ability modifier, plus/minus any status, circumstance, item, or fortune modifiers.
So he can attempt to grapple, he's just not likely to succeed.
>>
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>>92374656
Abadar survives at least another ~2,000 years since he's still alive in Starfinder.
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>>92375085
different timelines, state of sf/sf2 gods has no impact on war of immortals
>>
>>92375131
Really? I had no idea, is that somewhere in the SF books?
>>
>>92374992
Paizo is insanely defensive of Iomedae's writing, she isn't going way any time soon.
>>
>>92375019
>So he can attempt to grapple, he's just not likely to succeed
He actually succeeded.
And his buddy kept punching the pc in the guts till she pissed herself.
>>
So what's the point of wooden armor now? It's no longer anathema for druids to wear it, is it just flavor at this point?
>>
>>92375637
It's a way to avoid being ragdolled around by a high level caster dragon with magnetic dominion.
>>
>>92374656
don't worry, it's gonna be Sarenrae
>>
Is playing a wizard leshy pure trolling?
>>
>>92376047
You can choose to take 2 free boosts instead of your ancestry boosts and flaws.
Player core page 41.
So it's no worse than any other ancestry for playing a wizard.
>>
>desna safe
Disregard that I'm retarded. Still, I don't believe any of the gods in the minis box have any sway one way or another. I suppose if they do die they'll get more use from playing the AP.
>>
>>92374409
>As the only class with a key score not tied to any skills, and the lowest amount of trained skills a class can have, you're quite literally the worse skill user in the game. A lot of impulses can also achieve things that you normally might need a skill check for.

This is actually straight up wrong. Pure earth Kineticists are among the top 3 grapplers in the game right behind Monks and Barbs.

Sure, they start with 1 less STR and therefore, 1 less in Athletics in the 1-4 range, so you are better off just Kinetic Blast in that level range. But once you reach lvl 5, you are suddenly 1 point better in Athletics than everyone else thanks to your Skill Junction. This lasts until level 8, at which point Monks and Barbs jump 1 point ahead again (Clinging Shadow Stance/Furious Bully), but you are still better than everyone else. Later, you can pick up Assume Earth's Mantle, which gives you a free Apex Item for STR 3-4 levels earlier than any other class/build in the game, thus putting you ahead again.

Now you might wonder "Why the fuck would I want to go Athletics on a Kineticist?". Well, because you can drop your own hazardous terrain and throw your enemies in it. Just pick up Wrestler Archetype with Free Archetype or squeeze it in between your normal build, since only 2 feats here are important: The archetype itself and Whirling Throw. With Elemental Overlap, you pick up Jagged Berms, which give you insane hazardous terrain spam and tetris mechanics on the battle field, which you can then abuse to throw your enemies into. A small/medium enemy eats moderate damage walking through the spikes. Anything larger than that evaporates walking through them.

Later, you can spice things up by spamming earthquakes thanks to Rattle the Earth and thanks to your Aura Junction, any non-flying enemy is straight up fucked thanks to all the terrain fuckery.
>>
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Alright, hear me out.
Would it be reasonable for a high level wizard to make their money running an interdimensional shipping company?

Like, I bet they don't get much fresh fruit down in Alushinyrra right? You could have peasants pick them for pennies then float crates of them on the interdimensional market.
Not just that but, I bet they have all kinds of nice forage to to bring back, maybe not in the abyss but they could deliver to Elysium too. Worthless to the locals but insanely high value back on Galorian.
>>
>>92377435
I forgot that skill junctions existed. Fair enough
>>
Has one of your characters ever legally owned land in Golarion? Whether by having it bestowed by a King, Queen or similar, or taking and maintaining it through your own power.
>>
1e. I would like to play a priest of Abadar but am looking to break the mold compared to my traditional cleric or inquisitor builds. Pitch me your ideas or favorite build for an Abadaran cleric that still has access to divine spellcasting!
>>
>>92377559

Ye, the fortress ruin in AoA. We renovated it as a monster brothel by capturing and enslaving different monsters in all the areas the portals led to and earning good money from people who wanted to rape those monsters.
>>
>>92377444
Higher planes likely have better quality than mortals considering majority of them are a paradise-type plane
Only lower plane that wouldnt try to get in way of bussines would be Hell, others would exploit your shipping to invade
On either end the preferable currency is souls and not fucking fruit
>>
>>92377732
So what you're saying is, they don't value their gold?
>>
>>92378039
more as a thing to tempt idiotic mortals with than actual valuable thing
>>
I'm confused on how spellcasting works. Outside of spells with a cost do any of them require you being able to do anything but speak?
More specifically, can you cast all spells with your hands full?
>>
>>92378559
manipulate - you must have unrestrained hands to do funny stuff but they can be holding stuff, be it a sword, shield, wand or staff
verbal - you must be able to speak, sometimes its replaced in a way by a class feature with flavour version of it (like psychic)
only like a spell or two have actual material costs, those got mostly shifted towards rituals
vanilla 2e had material pouch that was all-encompasing and more so for legacy flavouring than mechanical reason (unless they giga rare scenario where you're captured and stripped of belongings)
>>
>>92377444
Dunno if there has been lore changes, but from what I remember, basically everything in those planes has been made from soulstuff. I don't know if it has been expanded on how does that soulstuff interact with the material plane, or how does the material materials interact with that soulstuff, but I suspect beings in those planes would not find much value in non-soulstuff.

But if you want to go that route then soul trade/smuggling has been mentioned as lucrative trade between the planes. There is however beings doing that which would probably find mortal stepping on their business irriating and move on to remove said irritant.
>>
>>92379393
Afaik there is active trade via the elemental planes. Sky King's Crown had traders from the Fire and Metal planes coming through and if I'm remembering right those same planes connect to the Outer ones in some places so I assume trade flows just slowly.
>>
>>92379461
Elemental planes are kinda exception on that soul stuff thing and are actually made from material and energy. But yeah, actually lucrative business would be outer planes and unless you have souls to sell they would probably not be that interested.
>>
>>92374644
The best option is to assume that not having Athletics is a mistake and give them a level appropiate Athletics modifier.

RAW would mean it attempts the Grab Untrained, so d20+STR mod with the DC being PC Fortitude+10. Which basically means they aint grabbing shit.
>>
>>92379577

Just like a PC is not trained in every skill, why would a monster be?
>>
>>92377561
Knight of Coins Paladin half-orc with the Skilled and Overlooked Mastermind alternate racial traits. FCB into skills and 12 INT. Seven skill ranks/level allows you to be the elusive skill monkey paladin.

Lover of the Law is also a good Abadar specific character trait on any low-will character like a Ranger.
>https://aonprd.com/TraitDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Lover%20of%20the%20Law
>>
>>92374656
Abadar is looking worried, too.
>>
>>92381236
I think if they're gonna kill somebody it's gonna be Abadar, Gorum, or Iomedae.
>Abadar
He's "problematic" because he's unapologetically Capitalist and still associated positively with capitalism. A God who charges you for healing at a temple and laughs at the idea magic healthcare should be free is simply at odds with Paizo's current morals, even if they're fucking hypocrites who still make even Chaotic Good sluts and CN hippies charge full price for the standardized and codified Spellcasting Services section of the rulebook for gameplay balance reasons.
>Gorum
He's always been Great Value Tempus, has never been involved in anything significant despite being the god of war, his death is most thematic for something called War of Immortals, and he's a god they can comfortably kill off knowing even his fans won't care as long as he went down guns blazing
>Iomedae
her reputation is tainted due to WOTR retardation, she's a "problematic" Paladin who advocates smite first ask questions later, she's redundant if Arazni is also a core deity, and she's the "inheritor" of Aroden whose most famous act was fucking dropping dead.
I could also see them killing Torag because he's just "the dwarf god" and doesn't have cross-species appeal the way Calistria does even if she's also head of the Elven pantheon, but the problem is Torag is such a fucking boring choice he's basically safe by default, nobody would care if he died, there's like four other gods in the Dwarven pantheon who would immediately take over his portfolio anwyays, it would be the biggest nothingburger imaginable. For this same reason I doubt they'll kill Norgorber, either.

The nuclear option is Rovagug "dying" and going missing from the Dead Vault, causing an end to the cold war/detente between gods and plunging the world into open war between gods now that they don't need to worry about the universe blowing up. But Paizo are too fucking pussy to do something actually cool like that.
>>
>>92374656
>my transcendent monknigga confirmed SAFE
Feels good to be an Irori bro.
>>
>>92381785
in the exemplar Iconic they specifically call out that the dead god gets ripped in half over the surface causing god-juice to spill all over
>>
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>>92382682
Yeah the fact exemplars are empowered by dead god juice makes me think it's Gorum. Side note this is literally just Paizo ripping off the Time of Troubles, Exemplars are LITERALLY just Godsblood Spellthieves from 3.5.....
>>
if they kill gorum they are getting rid of one of their last like four based gods
not like golarion canon is ever worth considering
>>
>>92383390
Gorum dying could be entertaining as long as they actually follow up on the ensuing shitstorm as the Kellids lose their main god and the neutral/evil ones all turn to Rovagug or Demon worship as the next best thing and the Good ones have no clue what to do with their lives and swap to something stupid like worshipping a Giant or Draconic deity.
>>
>>92382834
i would like torag to die to move dwarves forward but i know they won't do yet another dwarven AP, just one that uses mythic rules
>>
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>>92381785
>problematic
I don't think Paizo is going to decide which god to snipe on that basis anymore.

They didn't kill the Good Patriarch God. They didn't kill the Evil Patriarch God (who also carried shenanigans with WOTC). And they didn't kill the S&M Freak God.

It's not gonna be based on "problematic" terms. Gorum might kick the backet due to how irrelevant he is among the core ones, but killing the personification of War in...well...a war is kind of retarded.

Also, if they decided to go after Iomedae, what would that say? It would result in two patron gods of Humanity (at least that's what the setting implies Iomedae to be) which ties to each other dying one after the other.
So I guess fuck Humans in Golarion, amirite?
>>
>>92383671
>Also, if they decided to go after Iomedae, what would that say? It would result in two patron gods of Humanity (at least that's what the setting implies Iomedae to be) which ties to each other dying one after the other.
>So I guess fuck Humans in Golarion, amirite?
yes, humans are white-coded so they must suffer and die
>>
>>92381785
What if Norgorber dies but sires lots of children to kill each other off and take over the last surviving one?
>>
>>92383671
war dying would mean jack shit since there is barely any in the setting anymore
however the whole prophecy shtick might have an extra layer - so far the only consistent thing is the idea dying, but what if its the opposite and Gorum dying would cause war to become unbounds and uncontrolled making due for some real fucking war
>>
>>92383671
golarion's races are all just humans with different paint anymore anyway and they've always got the most broken racial abilities
they'd be doing themselves a favor if they killed iomedae and that also happened to kill all humans
the playerbase at large wouldn't feel it because they're all playing half-orc half-vampire half-metal elemental leshy fire kineticists adopted by gnomes
>>
>>92383756
Yeah the death of a deity in the prophecies doesn't always mean their portfolio vanishes. Several include the portfolio going out of control or rampaging, which would perfectly fit with War of the Immortals. Urgathoa dying doesn't mean all undead vanish and the world is simply better off, it leads to an even worse scenario than with her alive
>>
>>92383767
>the playerbase at large wouldn't feel it because they're all playing half-orc half-vampire half-metal elemental leshy fire kineticists adopted by gnomes
human and half-elf are literally the strongest and most popular races in both 1e and 2e
>>
>>92383756
Makes sense in the theme they're portraying thus far with a deity's death, I guess. We saw it the most with Urgathoa's zombie apocalypse. But then, if wars are uncontrollable and constant, what would that spell for the setting. I doubt they want to turn Golarion into High Fantasy 40K - aka near constant war.
You said it yourself that war is a rarity.

>>92383767
For real anon, I share your thoughts on OC donut steel characters, but I they would never remove humans form the setting. They need to be there looking "normal" and "boring" at the very least for modern fucktards to project on them how unusually "awesome" their snowflake characters are.
>>
Pathfinder First Edition had teeth.
This second edition has dulled and watered down any of the edge this setting had.
>>
>>92383946
Agents of Edgewatch is pretty edgy.
>>
>>92383850
>>92383902
urgathoa was pretty much the only one with extra apocalypse attached. And that's where you'd que in as players with mythic rules when war dies and find a replacement (or your party finishes up as a minor dieties of war with whatever modern political bs that is implied for gm to present)
>>
>>92384052
gaygents of smegmatch was the worst adventure I had laid eyes upon or taken part in I think just ever
what an absolute shitshow. I genuinely can't believe they printed it and sold it as a product
it barely functions, it's an absolute "your boss tells you to go and do this thing on this day. if you don't, there is no content" railroad, and the logic is just not tenable. "you do this shit for free, but you can also just loot anything you want from these peoples' personal quarters and stuff" was just not tested or ran past any players
it requires you don't even treat it as a rpg. you don't get to play Characters, you have to play a unit in a video game and a story is happening and you're just along for the ride and rolling dice at severe/extreme encounters until TPK or everyone gets fed up with it
>>
So the new book detailing Tian Xia is coming out soon.
What location are you excited to see in depth?
>>
>>92384593
Wherever the hobgoblins are
>>
What made you guys choose pf over other games? How is 2e? Do you play other games too?
>>
>>92383946
>I have to be told how to be edgy
What a colossal faggot you are
>>
>>92384910
I was introduced to the game through 3.5 and PF1e was introduced to me as "3.5 but better" and I never looked back since.
>>
>>92384910
>What made you guys choose pf over other games?
Went from AD&D to 3.0 then 3.5 and PF1 after 4e ruined a lot of things (turning tieflings into dinosaurs, adding more dinosaur races, fucked up warlock class beyond repair, and removed almost all minion options among other things). For a while Paizo kept adding more things I liked than things I hated to the core, so that's why I'm still using more of 1e in my games than anything else. No more Golarion campaigns, though. Done with that mess of a setting.
>How is 2e?
Absolutely worthless. I don't know how the Remaster changed things, but everything I read leads me to believe 2e somehow got worse.
>Do you play other games too?
Have played BtW, oWoD, nWoD, LotFP, d20 modern variations, and a few B/X oneshots. Currently playing CoC and a combination of PF1e, 3x, ACKSII, and BtW.
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>>92385515
dinosaurs?
>>
Are there any good podcasts to listen to that are entertaining and can help me learn the rules as I'm reading the core rules? Played a ton of DnD 5e with my friends but our DM has kiddos now and until it gets a bit easier I said I'd step up as a DM but really wanna try 2e as I've heard for years it's better.
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>>92385559
>dinosaurs
4e tieflings had huge tails and dragonborn were added to core. To me, someone who didn't want to play Jurassic Park RPG, it was wall-to-wall dinos.
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>pf23
what am i missing about savage critical? why is this rated so highly? If I need 19 on the dice, i'm probably critting anyway?
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>>92384910
>What made you guys choose pf over other games?
I started with 3rd edition D&D before moving onto other games like WFRP and Dark Heresy. I played a little 4e and then went to college and didn't touch D&D for years. When 5e came out I was immediately skeptical of it and didn't touch it for all of 2014 to 2020, where I finally tried it for a bit during the pandemic and came to the conclusion it was too simplified and characters were too boring and homogenous.
I followed the 2e playtests and thought the game had a rough start, but thought that the game could be decent if they expanded out-of-combat gameplay with stuff like 4e Martial Practices, and made Rituals actually useable and not a total joke. I hoped every 2e class would be equivalent in quality to Fighter and Bard. They weren't. The game is even more combat focused as time goes on with even less immersion, they removed alignment and spell schools to replace them with a post-it-note, the entire Book of the Dead is such a joke it put the nail in my hope for the system.
So now I just play Starfinder and Pathfinder 1e as my go-to "d20 fantasy" games. I'm not a WOTC fanboy or Paizo drone who's never touched other systems, I don't think it's the greatest thing ever with no substitutes, but it's pretty fun for the type of game you usually play it with and hits a good sweet spot of crunch where there's rules for a lot of stuff but not full-on GURPS tier and it's still ultimately heroic fantasy. I have zero interest in playing PF2E at this point, if I had some masochistic friends begging me to run it I might GM for them, because the monsters are the only ones allowed to have fun in that game and straight up cheat all the supposed rules and "muh balance" limitations PCs have to adhere to.
>Do you play other games too?
Yes and frankly I judge anyone who doesn't and has no experience with non-D&D systems (and pathfinder is still D&D, fucking Chad-Zak was literally dreamt up by Robin D. Laws) rather harshly.
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>>92386515
>what am i missing about savage critical? why is this rated so highly? If I need 19 on the dice, i'm probably critting anyway?
it's if you're swinging with MAP. a 19 with MAP still probably hits but won't crit.
>>
>play strength of thousands
>it's a fucking meatgrinder
>look it up online
>find a bunch of glowing reviews that hardly breathe a single word about the difficulty
>but also turns out a few people ARE having trouble with it
>they get responses like "uhh actually have you tried flanking and status effects? :)"
>we started with a sorcerer, a cleric, a trip fighter and a barbarian who spams intimidation so status effects were aplenty (at least when they actually fucking managed to make it past enemy saves)
>several TPKs and lone deaths later the party has gone through a variety of different classes, but for the most part we always had 1-2 casters and 2-3 frontliners
>our casters can barely survive a single fight
>the frontliners go down in almost every fight leaving the casters to somehow deal the last drips of damage with their assholes clenched and constantly on the brink of death
I feel like a fucking schizophrenic. How come the amount of people having trouble with this shit is such a tiny minority?
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>>92387217
No you're playing it entirely correctly, PF2e was designed by people for whom "we did the math so that everyone will go down at least once every other fight" seemed like an acceptable way to design a system. The people who wrote those glowing reviews went into it understanding this and so it completely met their expectations.
>>
>>92387288
>make Superheroes With Swords (not fantasy) system
>The Math is designed so that you're always failing at shit half the time
>encounters are designed so that you're always getting knocked unconscious and waiting 20 minutes for the table to come around to you again so you can make a death saving throw
>martials are 100% married to their one weapon they can afford to keep up with the rune treadmill on
>combat is a mess of prone>kip up>prone>kip up breakdancing nonsense
they really should have just made it a skirmish boardgame and not """tried""" to make it a rpg
>>
>>92387217
>>our casters can barely survive a single fight
your first mistake was assuming that the "I BLESS THE RAINS DOWN IN AFRICA" Harry Potter wizard AP was actually about playing a wizard, and not just being a Figther with a Wizard Free Archetype so you get free 7th level spells and access to the entire arcane list for scrolls and wands.
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>>92387217
What encounters in that AP were giving you so much trouble? Also, what level have you gotten to? Low level PF2e is swingy as all hell. Somehow my AV group of mostly new players managed to get through the first three floors before our first death but those low level fights were scary as shit, we had people going down much more often than we do at the point we're at now.
>>
lmao there removing the reptoid race from starfinder 2e because it's "anti-semetic"
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>>92387737
proof?
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>>92387830
The 2e AMA they just had. someone asked if they could be removed because it's anti-semetic and they said they are
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>>92388053
I'm not digging through a reddit thread for a wild goose. post proof
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>>92386666
Those quads make me afraid to ask, but would you recommend some games/core rules for somebody trying to get their group to try more things than 5e? It's not that I hate 5e, I just don't like that we haven't even seen what other game are out there and if there might be something that really catches us more than the standard DnD. I tried learning PbtA but that system is a little to simple.
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>>92389066
nta but my first suggestion is always forbidden lands
it's a very different experience while still being a fantasy adventure game
that and shadow of the demon lord, which has much more in common with D&D while still being very much not D&D
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>>92389074
Forbidden Lands looks really cool off the cover art alone.
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>>92388069
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1x5txh4yIFoDKZ0HKcYKKCrnKIzEtuUNQCgZOOT-uTek/
>>
>“Will Solarians be cool?”

>Thursty (M. Creative Director) — Today at 1:15 PM
>Solarians will be AWESOME, and I'm not just saying that because I worked on the original class chasis... >_>

Ah, so Thursty & Owen KC are to blame for that dumpster fire
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>>92365714
>1e
party just hit 17, i'm playing a magus. what feats should i look at, as i'm getting 2 this level. party is down to 3 players and we're all differing types of melee/very close range, so the oracle suggested i take Lunge so that casters we're fighting can't just shuffle out of combat with because we're fighting a lot of casters. any suggestions for my other one? was thinking either Elemental Spell to give a bit of versatility with my Shocking Grasps (i've got a ring of wizardry 2 so i've got plenty of level 2 spell slots to allocate) or Iron Will because we're at a point where none of us can really afford failing will saves, or Minor Spell Expertise so that i can have an extra pair of shocking grasps at my disposal. Iron Will seems to me like the least useful because I have Paragon Surge and can always chose that as the gained feat because i'd only majorly need it during combat or situations where i have more than a few seconds to react to something coming at me.

also, any advice for spells? took Greater Dispel and Decapitate because i'm already sort of crit fishing. Should i continue to double down on Greater Dispel (we're playing Rise of the Runelords and i'm functionally the only counter to magic enemies) or look at expanding my offensive spells list? GM did some extra legwork for us to give us each mini arcs that ended with getting a variety of minor buffs and mine ended up being Plane of Shadow related and i've got some affects from that, and i was contemplating taking Umbral Strike and Shadow Invasion for the thematic angle.

this is the farthest i've ever got with anything resembling a primary caster and to be honest i've largely had no idea what i was doing for the past 13 levels and sort of have just been winging it
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>>92390073
>Ah, so Thursty & Owen KC are to blame for that dumpster fire
1e Solarians made me so sad - as a concept, a solar-powered pseudo-Jedi with magic weapons and armour and shit is cool as hell, especially one powered by a dead star instead of a living one. Such a fucking shame that the mechanics were such dogshit.
>>
>>92365714
In PF2, I have a conrasu fire/wood kineticist with the wrestler archetype that turns on their aura and just runs around grappling people. Occasionally i pull a random wood/fire impulse out of my ass and throw it in my enemy's face.
I eat quite a few crits, but between maximized constitution & Toughness, I have so much HP that it rarely ends up mattering before my allies can heal me.
it probably isn't optimal at all, but i enjoy it a lot.
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>>92390366
That sounds fun as hell - guessing you use the Fire junction that gives weakness to your impulses? If so, Oracle Dedication for Incendiary Aura might tickle your fancy - it doesn't trigger the weakness from the Fire junction, but it does trigger from your stance damage
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>>92390376
I do in fact use the fire aura junction! I'd go into Oracle Dedication, but I plan on going into Fighter to get Reactive Strike; i'm one of the group's two frontliners and I need a tool for punishing people who try to just walk past my durable wooden ass.
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>>92390401
Yeah, no, that's fair, especially if you have a grappling weapon to work with. Personally, I'd be aiming for Aura Junction + Thermal Numbus + Incendiary Aura + Aura Shaping, just so you could have, at level 10, a 20ft radius aura of 6d4 persistent fire damage, but your idea might honestly work better.
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>>92390412
I do aim to take Aura Shaping asap; the biggest idea behind the build though was to grab Furnace Form at 12 so I can grab people and burn them to death even faster.
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>>92390418
I'd honestly hold off on Furnace Form until the free Impulse feat at 13, unless there's a Wood one you want there. If you do, you can get Effortless Impulse at 12 and get free sustains on it
>>
Was thinking more about it- I actually want to be in Monk, not Fighter. While I'm wearing armor all the time(wood armor impulse), I want Stand Still, not Reactive Strike- it has the potential to force them to stop in my aura instead of continuing past me, which is exactly what i'm looking for.
Plus, I get Ki Rush, which is a stupidly good mobility tool.
...I might look at what it'd be like going full Monk dedication instead of Wrestler.
>>92390477
My problem with taking effortless impulse is that at 16, Furnace Form stops needing sustain, and then I have nothing I want to be sustaining after that. I suppose I could retrain out later.
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>>92390483
>I suppose I could retrain out later
Failing that, pick up a different Impulse that needs sustaining - Sanguivolent Roots, for example, is a great lockdown effect from Wood and gains benefits from both sustaining and holding the line
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>>92390483
Stand Still is still a strike, which only goes up to expert on a Kineticist. If you still want to go Monk, grab Whirling Throw (and Perfection's Path) in addition to Ki Rush for an exit from the dedication.
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>>92390576
Can you not make an Athletics-based Grapple in place of a Strike if you've got a Grapple weapon, or is that just for doing weapon-based Grapples?
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>>92390576
But none of those abilities threaten people trying to walk past me and ignore my bulky ass, which was the whole point of getting reactive strike / stand still.
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>>92390585
Both are attacks, but a Grapple is not a Strike, so no.
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>>92390653
Fair enough

>>92390650
This is why i suggested Aura Junction + Thermal Numbus + Incendiary Aura + Aura Shaping - the threat isn't walking past you, it's existing in the same vicinity as you.
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>>92389904
Its all so tiresome. So they have just removed one of the biggest sci fi tropes in their sci fi game because jews see themselves in every negative fiction trope thats produced.
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>>92390728
The problem is that I'm one of two things standing between my enemies and a group of people who really don't enjoy being stabbed, and I need to better serve that purpose while still pulling off the character fantasy of being a burning grapple tree.
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>>92390775
Yeah, I hear you, but a reaction strike that's at best -3 below par for martials ain't gonna be that useful. Meanwhile, an ability that doesn't roll to hit or against a save and forces anyone near you to burn like the bitch they are? That's gonna keep people on the far side of you for fear of being set the fuck on fire.

Of course, if you're going for thematics/character fantasy, you do you, and don't let any of us shitweasels on this Mongolian underwater basket weaving forum stop you.
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>>92389066
>but would you recommend some games/core rules for somebody trying to get their group to try more things than 5e?
I'm the anon who wrote >>92386666 , if you're looking for 5e alternatives there's basically two schools of thought. If your players are retarded and insist on using 5e for everything because they claim it's a "universal" or "adaptable" system and therefore they refuse to learn anything else, the best advice is showing them something that is basically the polar opposite of 5e that it's outright incapable of modeling and demonstrate why other systems are important. In this case Call of Cthulhu or Delta Green are good games, they're both popular and the setting and focus is the outright antithesis of 5e's dungeon crawling heroic fantasy, even the most braindead 5e drone can see why they migh need to learn a different system to play it. The focus on roleplay and character interaction also makes it an easy sell, and since it's a percentile system it's easy for players to understand what they're good at and bad at and their odds of success.,

On the other hand, if your players are NOT legitimately retarded and are interested in other games for how their mechanics might differ and aren't immediately going to start whining "how come we can't just play this in 5e?", I'd recommend something like Shadow of the Demon Lord as a 5e alternative. It's similar enough to be familiar, but has a very different theme and approach and knows exactly what kind of game it wants to be, unlike 5e. Only ten levels, you level up after each adventure, Banes and Boons directly counter each other 1:1, only 4 ability scores, a fixed target number for skill checks, and a fun and interesting initiative system where instead of rolling you declare at the start of a round whether you're taking a fast turn or slow turn, and the order is always Player Fast Turns>Monster Fast Turns>Player Slow Turns>Monster Slow Turns, with fast turns letting you move or act and slow both.
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>>92390773
yeah I've never heard or even seen anyone ever link shape-shifting lizard people into being exclusively Jewish. people were saying this about the skrulls from marvel too. It just seems to me like it's the same thing as the okay handsign where no one thought it was a "white supremacist" symbol until people started crying that it was and it inadvertently made it one
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>>92391603
>It just seems to me like it's the same thing as the okay handsign where no one thought it was a "white supremacist" symbol until /pol/ deliberately spread the word to use it as one
FTFY
>>
You know that im looking into mounts companions... im kinda shocked that there isn't an option for griffon despite it being called out as a thing in-universe, not even as late level feat/very expensive buy-in. You can have fucking oozes, dinosaurs and other wacky shit but a griffon is out of question? Even in limited capacity for the le balance, level 8 casters can cast fly and air kineticists just flies like fucking Zahir spouting emptiness bullshit but no griffon? Hope that maybe Call of the Wild at least sorta adresses the option or gives a baseline to reflavour.
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>>92372959
Currently playing the Season of Ghosts AP, the GM is happy for me to change from human to human/Hunderseed once it officially releases. Playing as the son of a family blessed? by Yamatsumi. Took dual gate and took fire and earth. Have a shit ton of fun with the class. Three sessions in by the way. We are playing the free archetype said GM is happy for players to respec for free if their any thematic archetypes in the world guide.
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>>92392146
aren't the character options coming in like july and first book is just fluff?
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>>92392025
>/pol/ deliberately spread the word to use it as one
/pol/s entire thing with that was to prove how stupid and gullible the media was. If mainstream media wasn't so desperate it would have been ignored
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>>92392164
Hunderseed will be released in July
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>>92392164
nevermind but for different reason, character guide to tian xia is in fucking august while world guid is end of april
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>>92384910
Played 3.5 for years and after playing the Kingmaker crpg I realized it fixed a lot of the issues I have with martials so I started pushing my 5e group to convert over.
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>>92392397
>Tian Xia again
Goddamnit can we get some proper rules and lore for playing in Arcadia. It'd be a dream come true for a proper book about colonialism on the coast that has more depth than calling pilgrims evil.
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>>92390228
So, uh, what feats do you already have? And have you taken the Familiar Arcana yet? I'm guessing you're going with the standard dex magus type beat. At this level I'd take a good hard look at the Deific Obedience feat. Lunge is not something I recommed as the increased reach only applies on your own turn.
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>>92392521
sorry paizo read Coyote & Crow and are now terrified of including anything native-american adjacent for fear of being cancelled because white people might want to play as fantasy Geronimo. Tian Xia is okay because Asians are honorary white and liberals are comfortable being racist against them and paternalistically talking down to modern day chinese/japanese/koreans, especially when they can look down on them for not being "progressive" enough, like shaming koreans for the "gender war" or saying Japan is "xenophobic" and needs to accept immigration, or how it's completely unacceptable movies are edited to remove LGBTQ content when released in China.

Pic related was almost 2 years ago and there's been basically nothing since.
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>>92392922
I hate current year politics, give me back Sargava.
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>>92378039
If you're interested in gold and have those kinds of resources, you're probably better off mining the elemental plane of earth.
>>
>>92392922
surely he'd just poach sf2 parts for tech right
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>>92391590
The only problem with Demon Lord is that it might be a bit too edge for my particular group so I'm leaning pretty heavily towards learning Forbidden Lands as I'm seeing a lot of GM's talking about how they've ran it for years and it's still fun. Two of my friends know 5e so I figure I'd like to learn something actually different to change up the flavor of our sessions every now and again. Like I said, initially I learned the PbtA system, but if you already play DnD it's kinda simple (though it'll be a great system to play with my cousin at least). Right now I'm down to Mouse Guard and Forbidden Lands.
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Do I play a Desnan clown bard
or
An impoverished wizard rogue.
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>>92394435
Full cosmic caravaneer
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>>92392198
And yet people were doing it seriously.
>>
2e kingmaker question here, if anybody has experience with it.
My group opted for milestone based level ups despite my protests that that is a shitty idea for sandbox games(most of them are 5e imports who have never even done exp level ups), and I feel like we have been consistently underleveled. We have just gone into the stag lord fight and we are still only level 2, this must be wrong right? I dunno if there are official milestone level up guidelines for kingmaker, but I feel like I am just struggling to do shit.
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>>92396635
Oh yeah, if your GM runs the stag lord without alteration he can probably without exaggeration oneshot anyone in your group from 600 yards away.

I'm running 2e kingmaker and very early into looking at it I decided that milestone leveling was the wrong choice for it, XP all the way.
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>>92396679
>without exaggeration oneshot anyone in your group from 600 yards away.
Okay, 600 yards is a large exaggeration. 200. feet though.
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>>92389904
God dammit. Reading betwen the lines it looks like SF2e is going to be just a space expansion for PF2e even if they claim otherwise.
>>
What's a solid aoe blaster? I like kineticist but it doesn't seem to have many good aoe options I assume it's going to be wizard for aoe blasting?
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>>92396827
Literally nothing.
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>>92396827
Kineticist is your best bet, take it or leave it.
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>>92396827
any caster above level 7
sorcerer is likely the easiest to build on arcane/primal because you take dangerous sorcery and you're pretty much safe, just don't go x3 fort or dumb shit like that for your repertoire. oh and just say that you don't have signature space for heal for others to not pressure you into being a healcuck for retards who would rather stand ass to ass with enemies rather than reposition because they had to strike 2-3 times on their turn
>>
pf2e
quickly I need some water-themed loot to give my players
they're level 11
summoner, kineticist, witch, fighter
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>>92397018.
The Weezards decanter of endless wee
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>>92397018
water sword
sword made of water
makes things wet
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>>92397018
lionfish spear
staff of water (major)
vigilant eye spellheart but change humanoid eye to kraken's
Helsman's recourse (major) if they want a shield
Electric Eelskin
Tideplate
Reef heart
weapon of whatever with frost and shifting rune
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>>92391603
>>92392025
Lizard people have never had anything to do with anti-semitism. Once again, the leftist goy gets it in his head that he needs to protect us poor heathens and "people of color" from threats he invented, so he can pretend he's a morally good person and brave freedom fighter while doing as little as possible. Tomorrow we'll be the threat oppressing one of his other little lambs, just watch.
If they make GW cancel Lizardmen I'm going to be fucking pissed. None of us wants this. You can call me a lizardman right now and I'm just going to laugh, lean back in my combat wheelchair, and eat some more flies.
>>
forgot to respond to
>>92396827
Oscillating Wave Psychic is pretty good for this. If you need more offensive spell access, take Wizard Dedication.
>>
>>92397330
It's not lizardfolk that are the thing they're backing off over, it's shapeshifting lizard people that control the world.

I don't agree with it and the primary conspiracy theory around shapeshifting lizard people in the world today involves the British royal family and not the jews but you should probably know what exactly you're getting mad about.
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>>92389904
>>92390773
>>92391603

wow that is fucking amazing.
what the fuck is wrong with paizo?
alien infiltrators are a classic scifi thing ever since "V" and "They Live"
and what the fuck is wrong with paizotards?
i legit think they have paranoid schizophrenia.

will they delete yuan ti also? same thing.
>>
>>92384910
I am being held prisoner in the shitty 2e system my friends are all enamored with. I'm stuck here until I can convince them to move on to a better system or we croak, whichever comes first.
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>>92372959
what impulses are you planning to take from among metal and earth?
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>>92398013
And you'll have the same attitude about whatever they play next.
>>
>>92384910
>What made you guys choose pf over other games?
My friends wanted to start up an online tabletop group with PF2 and I wanted to play tabletop and sort of invited myself.
>How is 2e?
Pretty great IMO, but I don't get a stick up my ass about things being suboptimal.
Miss me with the woke pandering, though. My advice: avoid the APs, play your own group campaign where you deconstruct(or ignore) the setting's newfound wokeness.
IMO it's better at doing what D&D does than 5e is, and I found 3.5e really dense and disliked a lot of what it did, so pf1 isn't something I particularly enjoy. A lot of the time it felt like playing martial was a complete waste of time unless you really knew what you were doing.
PF2's three-action system is novel enough, I just wish they did more with it for casters. More spells that could be cast as 1 action would be nice. It feels like they either didn't have enough ideas for 1-action spells, or overbalanced in martials' favor. I do like that casters don't tend to end combat with one turn, though.
>Do you play other games too?
Yeah. I play Lancer, WH40k, and MTG with the same group. All through foundry/tabletop sim and discord.
>>
>>92398331
X
Wrong.
We have played games in multiple different systems including 1e which I was fine with despite its flaws.

Any other cope you want to throw my way about 2e sucking?
>>
Reading the new Monster Core, so Erinyes is out? seems kinda wack that they got retconned out. Still gonna use them
>>
Do you all hate playing healers?
>>
>>92398409
2e made healing way less painful, between medicine checks and healing font. So no.
>>
I love healing being tied to a % chance to miss actually.
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>>92398409
I hate everything that isn't the most optimal strategy. So yes, I do in fact hate playing healers.
>>
>Optimal strategy
Oh boy, I sure am looking forward to seeing this strawman get spammed everywhere anytime there's valid criticism of 2e. Hopefully the 2e sisters will get tired of spamming this one soon.
>>
>>92398443
Medicine and the Medic archetype are so good that medicine's one of the things I actively consider every build. Basically anybody with a free hand can benefit tremendously from Battle Medicine for in-combat healing, and the way medicine works, if you're set up for Battle Medicine you're like two skill feats away from being a damn-near optimal out of combat healer capable of handling your whole party as well. Super low barrier for entry, accessible to all classes, extremely potent depending on build. Medicine's one of the things 2e did right. It does not feel like you're hurting yourself by being a healer.
>>
>>92398704
>wasting your combat actions on healing
>>
>>92398740
That's a meme as old as time. Every theorycrafter for both editions makes the same argument: dead enemies don't do damage, so killing an enemy a round earlier is effectively preventing a round's worth of damage, therefore damage is the best healing. Anything else can be handled after combat.

That's true, so long as your party's capable of outputting enough damage that nobody on your side goes down before all the enemies do. If you're a full group of optimized DPS beasts playing through an unmodified AP, you probably don't need any combat healing at all--you're going to shred enemies before any of you drop. But if the rest of your party isn't set up to nuke the bad guys every round, or if for any reason the encounters you're facing are challenging enough that an ally dropping is a real risk, then in-combat healing isn't just optimal but necessary. Dead enemies don't deal damage, but unconscious allies don't either. An ally that drops to zero wastes a ton of actions and potentially provokes Reactive Strikes when getting back into the fight. An ally that drops to zero and stays that way wastes three actions every round until the encounter's over. It's a huge damage loss.

Keeping allies above zero is important, and keeping them healthy enough that they're able to continue dealing damage without risking dropping unconscious allows them to play more aggressively more consistently. The difference between charging past the big melee opponents to get the boss or having to crawl past them with Steps (or even kill them first) is the difference between having enough HP left to eat a Reactive Strike on your way past or not. Healing translates to big damage.

So, if your campaign is particularly easy, then yes, combat healing is unnecessary. If it's not, it's very, very important to have, at the very least, some.
>>
>>92398843
>But if the rest of your party isn't set up to nuke the bad guys every round
...then it's a shit party and you can do whatever the fuck you want since you clearly don't give a fuck about any kind of optimization, rendering your advice posts a waste of everyone's time.
>>
>>92398843
Sure. But even at Level 5 as an expert in medicine, you only have about a 70% chance of actually healing people a decent amount. Since enemies can easily output 25+ damage a round so the piddly 2d8 heal isn't going to cut it.

And you can only target one ally once per combat.

>B-but what about Continual Recovery?

I remind you that it was said

>It does not feel like you're hurting yourself by being a healer.

You don't get enough skill increases before most campaigns end to bump Medicine up to Expert in addition to your primary stat in a reasonable timeframe. Especially if you wanted to pick up something else that wasn't Medicine like Crafting or anything else.
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>>92398843
There's also no penalty if the healer casts it one or two actions then throws a Divine Lance, since
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>>92396635
There are.
But you guys are fresh so not reading things and getting it wrong is typical.
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>>92398903
The penalty is being a caster.
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>>92398888
Level 5 is just about the worst level you could pick for that example, and you're right, it's underwhelming. At level 6, Battle Medicine with the Medic archetype (Battle Medicine without Medic isn't a thing) jumps from 2d8 to 2d8+15, which not only outheals the one-action Heal from an equivalent-level Heal spell, it actually heals 77% more. The Medic archetype's ability to ignore Battle Medicine immunity also means that, at that level, you can double up (Battle Medicine twice in a row), effectively giving you access to a 1/day two-action Heal, which heals more than Heal does. Once you hit master proficiency your numbers jump again (and you're able to ignore that immunity 1/hour instead of 1/day), and even if you never go above master you're going to be outhealing Heal most levels for the rest of the game. If you take Godless Healing, you effectively have a 1/hr two-action Heal you can cast on yourself. That's nothing to sneeze at--and, of course, I haven't even mentioned that you're able to heal other people too, both in and out of combat.

On top of that, all of these DCs are beatable with Assurance, meaning that there's zero attribute investment. This is good, because the characters you're likely using this on are going to be free-hand combat style characters.

Regarding investment, I don't know what to tell you. If adding Continual Recovery to a build constitutes "feeling like hurting yourself" then I guess we've just got different pain tolerances. Even if you decide not to invest in out of combat healing at all, Battle Medicine's a strong ability to build around for anybody who's expecting to have a hand free. The fact that you're also 90% of the way towards being a fully set-up out of combat healer is just gravy. Somebody's got to do it, and Battle Medic characters just happen to have a really easy time getting there from where their build's already at.
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>>92399190
>(Battle Medicine without Medic isn't a thing)
You can get it from the Field Medic background. NTA.
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>>92399220
I think there's a misunderstanding; to clarify, I'm saying that you don't really build a "Battle Medicine" character without grabbing the Medic archetype. It's just too good. There's a variety of ways to get the Battle Medicine feat itself (for example, Forensic Medicine investigators get it as well).
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>>92387217
I had a similar experience with Ruby Fist. Strangely enough the tournament fights are piss easy, but the monster lairs you can discover during the exploration are just nonstop ass rape. You don't even get any loot from them. I guess they just added them to discourage exploration?

Nobody ever mentions them when reviewing the module either.
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>>92399498
Fists is the only AP I've played to completion (or even more than one book of before everyone decided they fucking hate this one too) and yeah the difficulty was absolutely all over the place. The island bit was cool but nothing really seemed to matter or be worth doing besides fragging other teams. Some of those creatures fucked us up hard for no real gain but it still felt neat.
Then we got to the city and it opened up with all this sandbox-seeming stuff with all the sponsors and everything seemed like it was actually pretty interesting, until we got hit with "There's a fight every day. You must attend or the campaign is over."
And all those arena fights felt like a waste of time besides the couple our GM put together as custom content. One of them in particular I have very fond memories of.
The whole campaign was an utter cakewalk until one part near the end, some kenku singer thing that used song of the banshee every turn and auto-degraded your degree of success every time, which was peak stupid.
The climax, Idunno how much of it was homebrew, but it was moderately enjoyable.
It's just that nothing fucking mattered, there's no room to make any real decisions besides who your sponsor is, and ultimately my character ended up not wanting anything besides money to retire with. That may have been a character thing though. But still, the whole thing's just a hardcore scheduled railroad. At least it was a funny hardcore scheduled railroad.
I wish we'd stuck with Abomination Vaults longer. That one seemed good to us (players) but the GM was struggling with the abysmal layout of the pdf and scheduling conflicts happened so it fell apart. At least it was moderately sandboxy and "at your own pace" instead of a rapid fire railroad sequence.
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>>92392809
ah, right, i'm retarded. was tired last night and forgot to mention that stuff
feats: Combat Expertise, Dueling Mastery, Weapon Finesse, Spell Penetration (and Greater), Quickdraw, Weapon Focus (Dueling Sword), Intensified Spell, Extra Arcane Pool, Slashing Grace, Improved Critical.
When I was skimming through character creation and was looking at equipment, i really liked the dueling sword and thought it'd be neat to build into because we already had a pure dexnerd building into critfishing with a rapier and a straight frontliner in the form of a samurai. Tried to build into more tricky combat stuff with Dueling Cloak Adept and some other bluff stuff early on, but ended up training out of all that when i realized i was spreading myself waaaay too thin. Took ancestral arms on my half elf to get the proficiency and combined with my less than great rolls when generating my attributes the rest was poorly tuned history.

Don't have Familiar Arcana, that wasn't exactly something i was thinking about early on and by the time i was seriously contemplating it it was already a bit too late to make much sense build and narratively wise. Deific Obedience, I'm not too sure about. My character only barely worships Irori and it'd feel a little weird suddenly having him undergo obediences every morning alongside his spellprep when he never did before. Lunge, i don't think I ever read the entry fully so i'm really glad you brought that up before i committed.
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>>92398888
>You don't get enough skill increases before most campaigns end to bump Medicine up to Expert in addition to your primary stat in a reasonable timeframe.
You've never played PF2 and it shows.
>level 3
>you can bump a skill up to expert
>bump up your primary skill
>level 5
>you can't bump up your primary skill at this level, so you bump up medicine
That's not even including that Medic archetype just upgrades you to expert for free when you take the dedication, so you can just be expert in medic at 2nd level if you're going to be doing battle medic stuff.
Or classes that get more skill increases(Investigator, Rogue).
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>>92387217
You're doing something very wrong if SoT is giving you a lot of trouble, the vast majority of it has only a single encounter per day and enemies constantly have some "runs away or surrenders if shit happens" clause. Like, the only pain points I can think of in its first half are the very first fight, the zoo and Froglegs's swamp
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If the new Versatile Heritage from Player Core 2 isn't dragon related I'm pretty sure we get a Draconomicon-type book next year.
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>>92399676
>>level 3
>>you can bump a skill up to expert
>>bump up your primary skill
>>level 5
>>you can't bump up your primary skill at this level, so you bump up medicine


Impressive. You completely misunderstood what I actually said. So this... is the power...... of the average PF2e fanboy...............
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>>92399864
I entirely understood what you said; what you said was very stupid.
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Playing in a 2e Kingmaker game and talked with my GM about going down the Fey ancestry feats. Was wondering if PF Fey have anything like Seelie/Unseelie or seasonal courts to try to hint at things down the line.
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>>92399885
It's not explicitly mentioned anywhere in Kingmaker, and Fey as antagonists really only develop or become apparent in the late-game.
The GM can go in and start doing a writeup to attribute certain key antagonists to courts but it's not necessary for the scope of the adventure.
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>>92399934
Yea, I came in with osmosis of who the big bad is because of the video game and told my GM ahead of time. Made two backstories for my Monk and he liked the more fey oriented one more.
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I'm finally (maybe) getting an opportunity to hang up my foreverGM hat for a minicampaign in 2e
all we've been told is "solving problems in a spooky forest"
should I make my schizo-nun a spirit instinct barbarian with blessed one and a greataxe, or a warpriest with probably a greatsword from ragathiel and just pretend she goes from "oh no how terrible who would do this, these poor creatures" to "blood-drunk maniac" without properly entering a rage
I'm also vaguely considering a gorilla animal instinct and flavoring it as a changeling claws aspect but Idunno. weapons are just cooler every time
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>>92400043

If you wanna wield a 2handed weapon, then Warpriest is ass for that, since most of the best feats he got want you to have a shield. Namely Raise Symbol, which is among the strongest lvl 4 class feats in the entire game. So go Barb instead.
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>>92400043
I find it's more fun to play very simplistic stereotype characters.
Elf ranger with a bow and a cat pet.
Dwarf barbarian with an oversized dwarf waraxe.
Accumulating powerful features just isn't as fun as trying to accurately portray a character.
I would probably take cleave on that barbarian for example.

Something I've been itching to try though is a blender wizard, probably boundary school. And it'd probably suit problem solving in a spooky forest.
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>>92400131
I mean I am just playing to concept I'm just not sure how I want to go about doing it
>>92400070
that's good advice though, thanks. I hadn't looked too hard at what warpriest gets
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>>92400043
you can always go battle oracle but it's bit of a tricky commitment
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>>92400043
Is there a class more schizo than Thaumaturgist?
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I hope Player Core 2 adds Eldritch Knight.
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>>92400758
The Magus is in Secrets of Magic.
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>>92400911
Yeah but magus archetype can only spell strike once a battle.
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>>92401094
Have you considered using the magus class?
Is it somehow inadequate for your purposes?
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>>92401094
A part of me wishes that was the case for the actual class too. Just so the class wasnt straightjacketed into the same combat loop over and over again. God i wish it was built more like the swordmage from 4e.
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>>92398333
How is lancer? My group is a sort of short block grab thing where the GM has amassed a bunch of rpgs he wants to run and lancer seems to be the first he wants to try.
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Maybe they do a PC3 and revisit Magus and the other pre-Kineticist classes.
Thaumaturge and Psychic are fine, but Dark Archieve is somewhat messy.
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>>92401317
I'd love a PC3 that collects and coalesces most of the classes and items from GnG, SoM, and DA.
That's just 6 classes.
But would they ever do that?
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>>92401504
Slight reworks in order to resell content they've already made, whilst ensuring GnG, SoM and DA remain relevant due to the other stuff in them? You really have to ask?
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>>92401707
Gunslinger and Inventor are pretty dependent on significant parts of GnG.
SoM is pretty much APG2 - Magic Bugaloo (or Ultimate Magic).
Dark Archieve is a GM book, aside from the classes (similar to RoE).
But a PC3, with some updated content from those books in addition to the classes and those ancestries from LO:AG that won't be in Starfinder, as well as generic LO and AP Archetypes like Wrestler should work.
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>>92400758
truth be told there isn't anything specifically forbidding you from just taking spellcasting multiclass on a martial bar spell critical which we know wouldn't make it through in its current form to 2e. Bespell weapon, spellcasting feats even without FA and just focus on whatever dumb 1a spell if you want to strike more than once or anything that you got if you're fine with striking just once after a self-buff
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>>92399670
Pfwhew, alright.
You can use Bladed Dash with your spell combat for a psuedo-pounce and have Monstrous Physique for the real deal so you probably have mobility covered.

Rather than Lunge, you can "easily" get 15 ft reach if you cast Long Arm and activate a Swordmaster's Flair (Blue Scarf). This will prevent casters from just 5-ft shuffling away and casting. As a Magus you qualify for Disruptive so you could retrain your Combat Expertise into Combat Reflexes and then take Disruptive->Spellbreaker. Teleport Tactician is also very relevant.
There are of course a lot of feat paths you could have chosen but that would require hefty retraining by now.

A single feat that can have a huge effect would be Additional Traits. I'm guessing you already have Magical Lineage but Meditative Rest is absolutely busted at higher levels for prepared casters.
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Need some advice here
So I’m running my first pathfinder campaign in almost a decade. Naturally I am rusty as fuck. Luckily I had six months of prep time to relearn everything since we were waiting for one player to get back from deployment. I also gave a pdf of the rule book to all of our players so they could learn as well, told them I’m rusty and that the best way to help me was to read the rules, and to ask me if they had any questions
Well I’m now two sessions in and 3/5 players have clearly not even looked at the rules. Both sessions were spent having 90% of the time being devoted to explaining (attempting to) basic mechanics that they have yet to grasp, so basically no progress has been made. They all have prior 5e experience but no pathfinder experience, yet they asked me to host this for them
I’m sick of repeatedly walking them through every single thing they do when they clearly aren’t reading the rules after basically begging them to. I’m about to stop the campaign for this reason. What do?
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>>92403663
tell them they can either rtfm and stop slowing the game down for the whole table or drop out of the game
if at least one of them sticks around 3 players is the ideal group size anyway
it is not selfish to make demands when they affect the activity everyone agreed to get together to do
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>>92403663
Just accept that some people can't learn how to play just by reading the book, they have to apply it in play to get it.

Run the first couple levels like a tutorial for them instead of expecting them to be masters of it without having played it.

td;dr learn some patience.
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>>92403663
>Here's the rulebook, read through hundreds of pages of dry text with conflicting rules
Will unfortunately not work for many players. They expect to pick it up as they go which really doesn't work with games crunchier than "tree-stat indie" shit.

You need a slow start like >>92404333 says and you need to give them homework. They don't need to know every single rule, they just need to know their own character sheet. The (un)rogue needs to know their stealth bonus by heart. The wizard exactly what their spell DCs are. The Fighter what their attack and damage bonus is before and after power attack.
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>>92403663
just tell them to read the rules you retard
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>>92384910
>Why Pathfinder?
It just kind of happens to be the system most of my long term GMs have used. I played in one 4 year pf1e campaign, then moved on to another group who used 5e. They grew sick of 5e eventually, and when PF2e entered the tabletop zeitgeist we moved over to it. So far I've played in two PF2e campaigns, one to level 12, another to level 20. The main reason they picked it is that it has very good VTT support with Foundry, and because it's apparently quite easy to GM.
>How is it?
While I have some fondness for PF1e, I think it's broadly shit. PF2e felt like a breath of fresh air, a real improvement at first, but over the years I've grown quite sick of it. It's not all bad: the three action economy occasionally shines quite nicely, though many turns wind up playing out more or less exactly as they would in PF1e. I like the math being tighter, less easy to break, though those constraints also make the exceptions to the rule (eg: classes that give big bonuses to math, like Fighter or Bard) even harder to keep up with. I like the -idea- of ancestry/skill/general feats, but how -good- different ancestries and skills are varies significantly. Compare something like Medicine or Athletics to fucking Performance. Likewise there's a ton of ancestries that don't get 13th or 17th level feats. It comes into play with classes too. They introduce options like Inventor or Investigator and then completely stop supporting them. But the thing that really kills my enjoyment of things is how utterly petrified Paizo seems to be of making options "unbalanced". I respect they're trying to keep the game balanced, but they're so wary of upsetting the balance they make a ton of options worthless or just boring, unexciting. That's what killed my enjoyment of PF2e.
>Do you play other games too?
CoC7e, various 40k systems, Star Wars Genesys, D&D5e, Lancer. Planning on GMing and introducing my friends to a bunch of systems.
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>>92403663
if you use a VTT, foundry does a huge chunk of automation for players so they can forego learning a bunch of shit
realistically all they really need to know is everything on their character sheet
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>>92374656
>Erastil, Desna, Cayden and Irori are safe
good. don't care about the rest
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Are there any good spells in the divine tree? I'm playing 2e for the first time as a Cloistered Cleric of Abadar in a Kingmaker campaign and I'm struggling to find fun or cool spell choices.

We just hit level 4 after defeating the Stag Lord and are beginning to build our kingdom but all of my spells kinda suck and I'm wondering if it picks up at level 5 with level 3 spells and I'm wondering if it's just a divine spell problem or what I can do
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>>92405897
Heroism.
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>>92405905
We already have a Bard in the party providing a status bonus with Courageous Anthem. Does it stack with that effect or no?
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>>92405897
>Are there any good spells in the divine tree?
besides being a healbot? no.
> I'm playing 2e for the first time as a Cloistered Cleric of Abadar in a Kingmaker campaign and I'm struggling to find fun or cool spell choices.
welcome to playing a caster in 2e. at level 6 when the bard gets Dirge of Doom you will enjoy being a Bless-bot to make up for no more inspire courage. No, Heroism and other status bonuses don't stack. Only the highest ever applies.
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>>92366829
Well the issue is that its about color.
The industry is very sjw so like what did you expect. They want to move away from anything regarding skin color.
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>>92384910
So my experience is this.
Played loads of systems WoD, Shadowrun, etc. in the 2000s.
3.X trumped them all for simplicity and easy to adjust and homebrew anything you disagreed with.

4e hits and I personally really liked it because combat needs to be fixed, but players hate that they cant just move, action, defend in combat.

So no one plays it and it dies off,
PF appears and continues support, but regardless of revisionism, unchained was incorporating good things from 4e. so I liked it.

2e added a little more 4e and because the math works its fantastic.
You CAN attack freely with MAP. You CAN cast more than one spell. Most actions have fun ripple effects which I like.

Any complaints about 2e can be homebrewed away.
Want drawing a weapon to be free? okay then thats fine, but its a little imbalanced, but no one gives a SHIT
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>>92365714

Our baby dragon just shrieked at a securitron.
It replied with "Please address all complaints to the front office"
Take aback, out baby dragon blinked a few times and said "How rude."

One of our inventors speaks draconic so we know they weren't saying anything, they were just shrieking.
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>>92396827
>I like kineticist but it doesn't seem to have many good aoe options
WTF? It has plenty of aoe's and they don't cost slots, just actions
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>>92399874
You're arguing with fighterfag, who has never played PF2 and consistently gets rules wrong.
>>92403663
Make oneshots for them to play through. Set them at odd-numbered levels, one at 1, maybe a couple at 3, a few at 5. Give them the opportunity to make new characters each time, but encourage them to use basic, universal mechanics like Strike, Casting, Skills, and maybe focus spells.
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>>92405897
Guy in my game just prepared exploration spells to speed up the hexcrawl.
create water
marvelous mount
create food
water walk

Then he will also typically have command and translate prepared.

After a few levels he got a staff of providence and now he prepares revealing light, calm, and blindness. Clerics can actually charge staves with their channel slots which is wild.
>>
Hey guys, long time no see. Took a break because I was actually making physical versions of the sheets I'd made before now so I could hand them out to the streamers they were inspired by at a recent convention. It all went well, though the hundreds-people-long meet and greet lines DID NOT help.

Anyway, as for this sheet, Kabhaal is actually someone I like quite a lot, and it's not just because his persona is basically a Cleric (my favorite class).
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>>92387377
>Math is actually designed so that your chance of success goes up if you invest in the skill as you level up
>Encounters require a team of 4 to play like a team of 4 to succeed
>Can literally transfer runes for only 10% of the cost of the rune so long as you have 1 day of free time

You've never played more than 1-2 levels of a 20 level game and the levels you did play, you sucked at because you're a troglodyte.
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>>92407588
Stop trying to usurp fighterfag's meaning. Fighterfag is the anon who shits up the thread anytime someone mentions the 2e fighter in a slightly disparaging way.
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>>92408065
>usurp
nta but that's not what usurp means. ironically, by diluting the meaning, or conflating it with something else, you're doing the same thing.
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>>92408048
Skills are by far the least interesting thing to get more proficient at as you level up which is signaled by the fact that the devs basically do not care nearly as much when you can succeed wildly at them with minimal investment compared to combat or spell-based utility, both of which are scrutinized so heavily that 90% of the same combat tactics that were "the best" when the game first launched are STILL the best now, several years into the game's life cycle.

Seriously, there's a reason why, let's say, Acrobatics has exactly ZERO skill feats you can get that require you to be at least level 7 before you can take them, and then compare that to how Swashbuckler's whole kit, which relies on that skill check, specifically calls out that in order to succeed at his maneuver a Swashbuckler has to succeed at a VERY HARD DC as a BASELINE, which basically means that at every level and NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOU ARE AT IT, to succeed at this check you may as well just toss your modifier out the window and only rely on seeing if you rolled above 15 on the D20.
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>>92401317
all they need to do for magnus is
>spellstrike no longer triggers opportunity attacks
boom fixed
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>>92408152
What they're actually doing seems to be removing aoo from most of the bestiary except 'trained soldier' creatures.
Trolls don't have it anymore.
Inakurse doesn't have it anymore.
Anyone who wants to peruse monster core and compare it to the old creatures could probably find more.
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>>92408182
thats a retarded fix then I feel like
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>>92408077
He is trying to usurp the title of fighterfag and give it to someone else thus changing its meaning. Only a fucking sperg would need this explaining to them but here we are.
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>>92399864
>>92408065
>>92408183
>>92408240
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>>92405928
No, but there's still probably some useful buffs you can cast.
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>>92408146
>Acrobatics has exactly ZERO skill feats you can get that require you to be at least level 7
There are multiple level 7 acrobatics skill feats and one of them (Kip Up) is widely considered to be one of the best skill feats in the whole game
>Swashbuckler's whole kit, which relies on that skill check, specifically calls out that in order to succeed at his maneuver a Swashbuckler has to succeed at a VERY HARD DC as a BASELINE
That's not how panache works. Have you ever played a Swashbuckler? Well I have. Swashbucklers generate panache by succeeding at certain skill actions (tumble through universally, and another/other actions based on your style). You don't need to beat the very hard DC for your level to gain panache, you just need to beat the DC of the creature you're targeting. The rule you're thinking of is for GMs giving out panache for performing "Daring actions" outside of using the skill actions that normally generate panache, and even then the way it's worded makes it clear that using the very hard DC is only a suggestion.
>At the GM's discretion, after succeeding at a check to perform a particularly daring action, such as swinging on a chandelier or sliding down a drapery, you also gain panache if your result is high enough (typically the very hard DC for your level, but the GM can choose a different threshold).
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>>92405897
>Cloistered Cleric of Abadar
Why Abadar? Please tell me this is for character background reasons. Abadar gives you Earth domain and a whole lot of garbage.
Fear is overpowered for awhile for every non-Primal caster, Divine the longest.
Protection is good. Runic Weapon is amazing now, but will be awful once people can get their own Striking Runes.
Boneshaker is great if your GM allows it.
Dispel Magic should be prepared at least once among your two highest spell ranks.
Silence should always be prepared in 4th rank slot or higher. The version you get now is awful and completely different.
Your best rank 2 spell is very controversial, but using Summon Lesser Servitor to conjure an Imp and having it use Infernal Temptation to give someone advantage... just make sure they DO NOT DIE IN THE NEXT HOUR. It flies, imp poison is a nice debuff, and boar form does decent damage.
Holy Light will be very useful to prepare later. You get that and Heroism at level 5.
Rouse Skeletons is some nice battlefield control. It targets reflex and creates a large patch of difficult terrain.
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>>92401300
Dunno if you're still around but here's my answer. I only played a single adventure worth of Lancer but I really enjoyed my time with it. The game is a wargame, like 1% of its rules are dedicated to rules for social encounters and the like. In a way, it's basically two systems in one. The mecha shit is very crunchy and has a ton of options and rules while the pilot facing stuff is freeform and very loose. Just the bare minimum to support out of mech problem solving.

Anyway, combat felt really fun. Due to the breadth of options I felt like I had a lot of possibilities for what I made my mech into. The talent system is a lot of fun and really get across your pilot's specialties. I made a supportive leader character who could mark out enemies and give my teammates bonuses, which made me feel very useful. Popcorn initiative (any PC takes their turn, followed by any enemy, followed by PC, etc.) helped keep everyone from zoning out and allowed us as a party to strategize more effectively. I really adore Overclocking and heat as a risk reward system. You can basically give yourself half an extra turn and remove some action restrictions by overclocking your mech. This gives you heat, enough of which can damage your mech's systems in various ways. The heat cost kinda escalates as you do it, from 1 to 2 to 4 and so on, so there's a nice sense of always having options but also potentially screwing yourself bigtime.

Not sure exactly what to say, and I probably need more time with it to give the system any substantive analysis. But I enjoyed it. Less sure about the quality of the setting, but I don't mind it and there's parts of it I enjoy a lot, like the NHP shit and stuff relating to the outer rim bits, everything far removed from Union.
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>>92408670
Awesome update anon. How would you compare the combat to PF2e?
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>>92409977
nta but played a bit of lancer
rather busy, there is a lot of options that interact with each other in sometimes surprising way especially once combined with pilot talents
it's still really cooperative game where teamwork is king and it's really bloody disruptive if you got a retard who has to phone/tab out during game as there isn't a set initiative and you have to make a choice of who's going when in player-enemy-player format because catching them up to speed and if they should jump in now even more of a hassle
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>>92409977
I feel like giving a full breakdown of the system is kinda inappropriate for this general, but in short, I liked it a fair bit better. I think a big thing in the system's favor is that switching things up is pretty easy, whereas retraining or buying different weapons in PF2e is an expensive process that generally doesn't make a whole lot of sense, story-wise. Being able to just... pick up a different mech and through that have a different playstyle is quite nice and freeing.

I like that movement is separated from other types of actions. Spending one of your three actions in PF2e to move around never really felt that good or rewarding to me, so being able to reposition as part of your turn is nice. The overclocking system I mentioned is a lot of fun, and I often find myself wishing I could take on a bunch of damage in PF2e to get just *one* additional action. Power with consequences is something I love.

Really, I think it's up to whether you love mecha or not. If you dig giant fighting robots you'll probably like it better than PF2e. If you're more of a fantasy guy, I can't imagine the system gelling too well with you.
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>>92409994
>>92410034
Thank you for the insight anons. You have both made me very excited to try out the system. The only problems ive heard about it is that the foundry module for it is abit out of date and the online community is full of unironic throw you in the gulag communists.
>>
So if my character has an orc mom and an elf dad, as is apparently possible now, are they an orc with the aiuvarin versatile heritage or an elf with the dromaar versatile heritage
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>>92410135
Either or, I imagine. I'd take the base ancestry depending on who the mother was.
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My group was supposed to have a session literally just now. Some viking campaign around the Lands of the Linnorm Kings where my party was just gonna fight the graveknight of King Opir Eightfingers. One of the chillest dude didn't show up — he left the group and seemingly ghosted all of us.

We love you man, please get in touch, you know how. You genuinely never bothered anyone with anything, though if you *did* intend to burn all the bridges and distance yourself, I can respect that. I just wish we could've talked and made amends.
>>
But why can I play a human elf combination, a human orc combination, an elf orc combination, an elf dwarf combination, a orc dwarf combination, but not a human dwarf combination?
Wasn't the ability and practice to breed with nearly everything one of defining traits of humans?
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>>92410262
Seems like an incredibly easy thing to write.
You do know how to write, right?
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>>92410273
Versatile Human and Natural Ambition for everyone?
>>
>>92410300
No, yes.
>>
>>92410262
I would hope Paizo doesn't intend for elves and orcs to be able to breed with literally everything, like presumably an elf or orc can't have kids with one of the ancestries that aren't even mammals or vertebrates or capable of biological reproduction at all but that's not explicitly spelled out, it's just dumb that elves and orcs could interbreed with humans but not each other.
>>
>>92410262
The player core gives guidance for doing exactly that, it mostly boils down to giving something weak as an initial benefit from the heritage and then access to all feats from the parent that make biological sense. They just can't be fucked writing out unique feats for every bastard.

Elfs and orcs are iconic so they're grandfathered in.
>>
>>92410329
They might be a ring species.
>>
I'd really like an official book dedicated to homebrew and how to balance it.
How to create feats, classes, items and ancestrys, and how to balance them.
>>
>>92410222
tell me more about your campaign
sounds based
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>>92410222
Sounds like what happened in my group a few years ago just before covid. Good friend just suddenly ghosted the entire group, turns out his FF14 discord friends convinced him to troon out and cut all ties to his former friend groups.
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>>92411899
A member of my 5e group broke up all contacts due to a toxic girlfriend. But it seems she left that relationship and is now looking to start playing again.
>>
holy fuck do I regret letting one of my players have a gun sword.

Not because it's broken or anything, I just can't visualize what it looks like without getting an unfathomably retarded answer. Why does it shoot projectiles? Why does it require two hands? Is it a sabre? is it a rifle? is it a broadsword AND a rifle? why couldn't this guy just have asked for a gun AND a sword?! I would have happily given it to him!
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>>92412686
Plenty of historical examples you can look up.
>>
no gunaxe?
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>>92412814
left one for my players to find last campaign, they never used it
>>
How's starfinder 2e?
I want to run something scifi
What sort of games/media would it be best to compare to?
>>
>>92413776
It's not out yet, and there's no playtest until August. Mechanics-wise, it's confirmed compatible with Pathfinder 2e, so that's your starting point there. Setting-wise, it's kitchen sink fantasy plus space. Everything about your standard D&D-style fantasy setting is still present: wizards, psychics, monsters, elemental planes, all of it. It's actually exactly the same setting as Pathfinder's default setting , Golarion, just fast-forwarded several thousand years. The primary hub is a giant metropolis/space station; you've got your honorable warrior space empire, your space elves, space zombies, etc. There's a bunch of setting books for Starfinder already out which will presumably all still be applicable. Anything else you probably gotta wait until August.
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>2e
>be fighter in heavy armor
>enemy has an attack bonus almost as high as my AC
I hate Adventure Paths.
>>
>>92414486
>Laughs in Champion

Some of the APs are seriously busted though. There's a boss in Dead Suns (Starfinder) that was printed with like 10 more AC that it should have had and you basically just have to survive until you roll enough 20s to crit it to death, it's ridiculous. Sometimes it feels like the numbers for AP-specific enemies just get drawn out of a hat.
>>
>>92413776
Seems like it will be basically just a space expansion pack for PF2e with zero unique mechanics. Setting was barebones kitchen sink in SF1e, and they seem to be scrapping most of the interesting parts for SF2e.
>>
>>92414486
>ugh I cant make this encounter challenging
>the math is too tight
>I have no creativity, I was born with a crippling case of 5ft hallway disorder
>there's LITERALLY NO WAY I can make this a challenge for anyone who is not brand new
>fuck, I'll just fudge the math. they won't know, they buy everything we write anyway
>>
It's kinda weird how till Arrow Salvo the only way to have a rather classic fantasy ability of aoe arrow rain was a fucking level 18 feat which feels like way later than you'd think it'd be available
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hi gang im looking at archetypes for my untamed order druid, am i right in thinking that if i take a barbarian archetype i would be able to rage while in an animal form as long as I shift into the form first?
it seems to me like while in animal form i cant cast spells or speak or do things like that, but rage is just an action right?
>>
>>92415346
>If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties
Yes, but why you would want to I'm not 100%, as you don't get damage benefits from it
Marshal however does work wierdly
>>
>>92415438
Hmm i googled it now that i realized i was using bad search terms and it seems like people are split on it, ill just ask my DM if he'd allow me to still get it because as I understand it the issue is that the damage bonus from rage is untyped (same with the AC penalty) right, which seems a little weird from a like "practical" view since the way I personal envision raging is just disregarding your own wellbeing because of aggression, which is just a behaviour/state of mind and not like changing your being really which i think the essence of the polymorph rule is right? but regardless, seems people are split, ill ask my DM about it
Marshal would be interesting but I dont really think it fits my character and i didnt like the looks of it because of that
>>
>>92413776
its gonna be shit
>>
So I read the new Monster core, this OGL thing really fucked around with a lot of stuff.

Barghests are now just some sort of demon dogs instead of demon goblins, which kinda fucks with their lore.

Erinyes, Balors and some other fiends got yeeted out of existence. Very sad.

The new dragon types are cool, but they leave a lot of gaps now where the old ones were. I guess the idea is to take a horned dragon, make it blue, and then give it lightning breath if you want a blue dragon
>>
>>92417172
Watch them claim that just like the jump from 1e to 2e that this has zero lore implications.
>>
>>92417172
>Erinyes
The hell, I get that parts of their design are based in D&D with the whole devil thing but couldn't they at least excise parts of it out and lean into the Greek Mythos stuff by making them LE outsiders with relations to Iblydos.
>>
>>92417172
If you want a blue dragon, you grab Bestiary 1 or AoN and use the stats of a blue dragon.
I like the new dragons, but I agree that they don't cover all bases. You don't have ice dragons, either, so I'm hoping that the next creature book will focus on dragons.
The Darklands also needs some love, with the removal of the Drow.
>>
>>92418248
I figure if you need a dragon for an arctic environment you just slap down an adamantine dragon.
'insert element' dragons are so passé.
>>
>>92417172
>>92417255
queen abrogail thrune now being advised by two big black-and-purple checkerboard patterned rectangles
>>
>>92417586
They just got replaced with other winged humanoid devils but with more of a fallen celestial vibe to their abilities and weaknesses.
>>
>>92417255
honestly i respect the approach that wotc has where every new edition the default setting has some kind of cataclysm that explains why magic and stuff works different a lot more than this
>>
>>92418372
Technically they did that with 2E as well, with the whole Age of Lost Omens stuff.
>>
>>92418421
the age of lost omens has always been the current age of the setting. it didn't just enter it when 2e came out.
>>
Fuck guys, I have a session soon and have no clue what to do, my players are halfway through a dungeon with a time limit and heavy casualties
>>
>>92419166
Give them the chance to fail. Time limits are meaningless if they aren't enforced.
>>
>>92419166
that's why you do victory points if you want tension but no actual chance of failure
a lot of people say they want the wargaming experience on hard dice results, but not a lot of them want to go through possibility of failure so you have to Wizard of Oz some shit (just not enough for once its evident to get blacklisted as gm by your players)
>>
>>92419166
There's literally nothing that can't be solved with enough magic items and potions.
>>
Curious what the PF2e haters hate about PF2e? I've kinda stopped enjoying the system myself but outside of "none of the feats or classes really inspire me" I can't point out anything else that bugs me about it.
>>
>>92419584
PF2 killed PF1. Casters in PF2 are so weak that even Fighters are more viable.
>>
>>92419584
you can't specialise to autistic degree in 1 thing and be rewarded for it
a lot of things are underpowered to eliminate the possibility of it being a problem in the future
some things are overvalued in class design, like full caster progression (ie legendary and 3 slots costing you hp die size, perception, saves)
special equipment is also overbalanced to a point where there is no reason to go for it over generic gear with runes
not all classes were designed equal on feat quality even if they're in the same group (ie some martials barely have feats worth taking, others would free archetype into themselves if they could)
even in games where you know you don't have to giga-optimise your build and could go for flavour you feel like you're overpaying for it
a lot of classes build the same to a point where it's like the toy story meme with buzz astral in store
>>
>>92419584

As someone who plays PF2e primarily, there is a lot wrong with it:

- You have like 7 skill feats and like 4 general feats that are actually doing something. Every other one is entirely useless.
- 3 action system leads to activities that are not really worth an action to cost at least 1 action (such as interact), leading to your character doing less per turn than in 1e or dnd 5e.
- Discrepancy exists not only for martials vs casters, but also for melee vs ranged martials where nothing can compete with melees and the compensation for that is a joke balance-wise.
- You have over 1000 spells in the game, but less than 100 are actually useful.
- Recall Knowledge is still ass, even after remaster and subclasses that rely on it (Mastermind, Outwit) are unplayable.
- Static item DCs means many items can be played for like 1-2 levels and are then useless.
- Specific items are useless 99% of the time.
- Consumables except for scrolls are too expensive (gold and action cost) for what they do.
- Battle forms do not work, summons do not work, mounted combat only works if your char is small and your mount is medium sized.
- APs are absolute dogshit, without exception. Balance is all over the place and maps are too small to ever play tactically.

That's off the top of my head. I'm sure there is a lot more wrong with it.
>>
>>92419584
>Curious what the PF2e haters hate about PF2e
Mostly just Paizo itself novadays
>>
>>92419765
why dont battle forms work
>>
>>92419955
Stats are too low; they have fixed AC and attack bonuses and on even PC levels you're 1 short because of how spell ranks work.
And the base armor class is usually low to begin with.
>>
>>92419980
Don't forget having to spend a turn shifting into them for all that.
>>
>>92419584
I wanted to like it since I bounced off 1e but I got so frustrated with it as a GM that I dropped the system entirely.

Exploration rules feel half-finished, the framework is there but without any soft timers (encounters, etc.) it's really just mindless bookkeeping until the next encounter.
Rules have convoluted, long-winded explanations for basic concepts that need to be rewritten so they can be referenced in play (stealth, hexploration).
Absurd amounts of situational bonuses. Getting a +1 to secret rolls to sense shapeshifters sure is worth a feat.
GM support is rubbish for anything except extremely linear adventures, and it shows in the APs. Most APs will have bizarre leaps of logic to keep players on the plot or paragraphs of information inaccessible to the players by default.
AP design tends towards meatgrinders and encounters where you're fucked regardless of tactics because the APL+3 enemy can down someone every round and you barely scratch its AC.
You're pigeonholed into squeezing out every bonus possible, maximizing your ability scores, and choosing the most efficient feats. Any roleplay decisions must be weighed against the fact that you will bring down the party for being suboptimal in both numbers and action economy.
A lot of this is is fixed if the GM runs their own stuff but I have never seen a GM run their own adventures.
>>
>>92420001
>AP design tends towards meatgrinders and encounters where you're fucked regardless of tactics because the APL+3 enemy can down someone every round and you barely scratch its AC.

I think this has gotten a lot better since blood lords, they seem to have had a drive towards making encounters more interesting.
>>
>>92419584
PF2 is just boring and unrewarding. You may as well play chess because it has the same amount of character customization and tactical choice.
PF1 is just better. It has some weaknesses, but all of its problems can be easily addressed with simple and obvious solutions. Don't allow Leadership, don't allow Sacred Geometry, that sort of thing.
PF2 though is just not fixable. It's problems are in its fundamental architecture and astonishing lack of content. D&D 5e lite is a good way of describing it... which should be considered a damning indictment since D&D 5e is the Fischer Price of RPG rulesets. It's barely even a game.
>>
>>92419584
>hate
There's no hate aside from the atrocious artwork. I imagine a lot of PF1E guys did like I did: took one look at 2E and decided not to update. There was just no point in buying into a new system that I would have to change even more than I did with 1E. It's a shame Paizo waited until the remaster to completely cut ties with D&D material.
Speaking of Paizo, I've no hate for them and I wish them well regarding the ORC license stuff.
>>
>>92420301
>PF2 though is just not fixable.

It is, but requires a lot of work. In my homebrew sandbox AP, I fixed:

- Lore autoscaling
- Skill/General feats being boring as fuck (https://scribe.pf2.tools/v/YYqyD1pB-skills-general-feats-redesigned)
- Recall Knowledge
- Aid
- Spells (DC/Attack progression on casters, including item bonus, much more spells being useful, restoring 1 spell slot after a fight, which stops casters from slowing a party down due to being out of spell slots way too quickly)
- Skill checks out of combat being fail forward (so the checks are not worthless)
- Item DCs autoscaling
- specific items being useless by giving them much more interesting properties
- Consumables except scrolls either being cheaper or getting auto-replenished once per daily prep
- Summon spells
- Exploration Mode by giving more Exploration activities and making existing one more useful
- Removing secret rolls and instead demand roll results being roleplayed instead
- fixed multiple classes and numerous class/ancestry feats and items

The game plays much better now and I much prefer it over dnd 5e or 1e due to the fight being much more dynamic than they ever were in those systems. And it's still much less work to do all that than to revive 4e from it's long forgotten grave, especially if you play on a VTT such as foundry.
>>
>>92419610
>PF2 killed PF1.
PF1 still exists and is complete. You still have your books and AoN.
>>
>>92377559
yeah, the citadel in AoA as well as the fishing camp and Castle Maunder from Troubles in Otari (our intro to Abom Vaults)
>>
>>92420581
Just chiming in with my two cents: I still run a lot of games with PF1e. You don't have to move to other systems just because there's a larger number in their name. It's ok to like and use what works and what you like.
>>
>>92420571
... It sounds like you ... it sounds like you like D&D 4e, anon. You... you need to leave. Get out.
>>
>>92421144
have you at least tried 4e yourself to be dissing or are you just part of the herd that only heard of 4e and never played?
>>
>>92421144
4e's an excellent game and the hate bandwagon exists for the same reason that the PF2e hate bandwagon exists - it was a new edition of a game beloved by many that tried something new in order to make the game more playable. Hell, we even got the sci-fi midquel with a lot of the ideas that would eventually be refined and forward-ported into the new core edition. In a similar vein, we'll probably get a 5e-ified PF3e in a few years, which'll pull loads of people away from D&D to PF but will overall be seen as a step back for the old guard.
>>
>>92421307
As long as WotC keeps milking 5e, that would be pointless. Pathfinder thrived when it offered an experience D&D didn't.
And there are already games like Tales of the Valiant appealing to disgruntled 5e fans.
>>
>>92419584
It pretends it's a 4e successor without actually going all in on anything I found neat about 4e, while stripping out anything from pf1e I found interesting. Its action economy is neat on paper but most of the barely feels more dynamic than move/standard/swift with the way 90% of classes interact with it. Its feats manage to feel more bloated with choices and yet still more bland and worthless than 1e's chaff. Every mechanical thing 2e does that supposedly "works" I found more satisfying to do in LANCER or ICON.

The worst thing is mostly that "it's balanced so it's good, this chart here says you should be having fun" paizo cocksucker fanboys are insufferable cunts who refuse to take any criticism as anything but bad faith from a PF1e/5e troll.
>>
>>92421511
It's easy to spot bad faith because you'll just say I fixed this by doing this and they'll say YOU HAD TO CHANGE RULES, PATHETIC, MIGHT AS WELL PLAY FIVEY trademark.
>>
>>92421538
>YOU HAD TO CHANGE RULES, PATHETIC, MIGHT AS WELL PLAY FIVEY
If I have to see one more person go "YOU NEED TO PLAY AN ENTIRE CAMPAIGN RAW BEFORE YOU EVEN THINK ABOUT HOUSE RULES" I will think very nasty thoughts about their ability to process information and visualize interactions.
>>
>>92419955
The spell basically makes you sacrifice a round of combat and the only good part of your class (spellcasting) to become a very substandard martial with a special movement speed.
>>
>>92420571
Would you mind going more indepth with the changes you made? Do you have a write up or something?
>>
>>92421751
yeah but i will still use it because its a roleplaying game and its what my character would do :]
>>
>>92421228
>>92421307
... Why are you here? Why aren't you playing a 4e game? Why is 4e so insanely unpopular still?
>>
>>92421511
>>92421538
>this chart here says you should be having fun
I am a big fan of 2e but my god these types of people are fucking insufferable to deal with. These assholes act like Paizo have solved game design and all the shit content is part of some balance master plan us mere mortals cannot comprehend when i dare say Daze is a shit cantrip and cantrips in general are a shitshow in terms of balance.
>>
>>92421842
And thats perfectly legit. I just dont think you get enough for what you are sacrificing.
>>
>>92421892
I dont know how to tell you this anon but pathfinder 2e might as be call DND 4e 2nd edition with the amount of homework it copied from that game.
>>
>>92421511
PF2 isn't even balanced, though... And the "chaff" in PF1e is inherited under the OGL and a legacy from 3.5 when Paizo had to tread very carefully or risk losing their hardcore tareget audience.
These days, you can address the feat taxes with like... not even three sentences of text house rules and it solves the entire damn problem if you even believe it's a problem.
>Weapon Focus applies to weapon groups (reference the Fighter class feature), Power Attack / Deadly Aim / Combat Expertise are just part of base combat and no longer feats, the Improved <combat maneuver> feats are all rolled into just two: Powerful Combat Maneuvers and Agile Combat Maneuvers, Point Blank Shot is gone, Dodge / Mobility are combined
That's literally it. See, not difficult.
Ignore munchkins who want Finesse removed. They're just trying to stack damage on their TWF Rogues by removing Strength from the game entirely. It's done in bad faith. Basically, if you are not enforcing encumbrance rules you're the problem in that case.
>>
>>92421927
... And that's why I don't use it. And it's why I ask everyone who applies at my table to tell me about the systems they have experience with and whether they like any of them...
>>
>>92421905
It's kind of marred my ability to discuss the game with anybody, because it's just instinct to poke at and ask "okay but why" in any game while I read through it, and doing that just made even people I thought were my friends assume I hated the game and was just there to shit on it.

Made even more annoying when errata literally changes things I asked about and got yelled at for questioning, to be more like what I thought they should be.
>>
>>92421948
>you can address the feat taxes with like... not even three sentences of text house rules and it solves the entire damn problem if you even believe it's a problem.
It only solves some of the problem, and mostly just highlights that PF1e players are far more willing to twist the game into a pretzel to suit their table. Like 90% of PF1e games I've played in the last decade used some form of EitR, and would always still run into "damn this has WHAT as a prereq? That's crazy and dumb wow."

>Ignore munchkins who want Finesse removed. They're just trying to stack damage on their TWF Rogues by removing Strength from the game entirely.
Sounds like a table issue my dude, the only time I see munchkin Str dumpers is some dork-ass freak trying to bait ERP with a hot girl spellcaster.
>>
>>92422065
EitR was not the first. It was being done in 3.5 as well. Removing five boring feats that do nothing but "+1 to a number" which only exist to make powerful feats more expensive is not "twisting the game into a pretzel"... It just isn't. It changes absolutely nothing about how the game works.
If you ask any munchkin, they'll tell you they should have an infinite number of feat slots. They're always gonna feign shocked frustration that there is such a thing as prerequisites. That's not the same thing as feat taxes, though.
Yes, you do need TWF to take Improved TWF. No, you don't get to just have three extra attacks per round for free. No matter where you draw the line between what's a tax and what's not, someone's gonna come up with some argument about why they shouldn't have to buy this or that feat. And that's exactly why people play with different forms of EitR: because some people think some things are a tax and other things aren't. It's like decided what pointbuy you want players to use for their Ability Scores.

>Sounds like a table issue my dude
It definitely is not. My table never has these issues - I get to hear about it from forums where munchkins and 5e refugees complain that they want infinite spells and infinite feats. But full disclosure one reason my table never has these issues is specifically because I do not remove Weapon Finesse from the game and I enforce encumbrance rules and all applicants to my table know about that because it's exhaustively documented for player reference before they get a seat.
>>
Was looking forward to having Merfolk in 2e, but now that I think about it, I'm worried that the "standard" way for them to get around on land will be that janky fish tank wheelchair from the Howl of the Wild previews
>>
>>92424397
watch merfolk not be able to breathe underwater but also not be able to walk the same way undead need negative healing but don't get poison or disease immunity
>>
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>>92424397
>>92424474
do we know anything about their stats, heritages, and feats?
i hope +dex -con +cha +choice
20speed
20swim +amphibious
8 HP

If they get -int ima rage and just make my own race.
>>
>>92419166
Update: went super well, the tension made them fuck up considerably without devolving into comedy, they played super tactical and took barely any damage
>>
>>92421968
and then said errata is praised to the high heavens by those same pople who yelled at you for suggesting it. God I fucking hate paizo faggots and shills
>>
>>92419584
PF1e was a game that offered a ton of character options in theory but in practice was miserable to run, especially as a DM, full of trap options and generally terribly balanced
PF2e is all of this, has new math for no real benefit and the top end, while still wildly imbalanced, isnt fun broken like PF1e, its just numbers broken
And all the modules are far worse, more wacky xD kitchen sink fantasy (which Golarian always was, but they tended to keep things more homogenous within a given region)

FWIW I cant stand DMing pf1e anymore either, I was hoping 2e would be a breath of fresh air but instead its just dogshit. Im just here to rip off what little value the APs have because the one saving grace of Paizo is they actually publish modules even if quality is declining
>>
>>92425646
I think the last few APs have been pretty good, gatewalkers being the big fat exception. Since blood lords, things have been solid.

Haven't got around to reading sandpoint yet though.
>>
is 2e duration unlimited the same as duration permanent in 1e? As in it lasts until it is dispelled. So if I use Rewrite Memory the memory changes would go away if the spell gets dispelled years down the line is that correct.
>>
>>92425680
Yeah. So long as the spell effect duration is up, the dispel has something to attempt to target and counteract.
>>
>>92425765
Thanks anon!
>>
>>92425661
theres just a very obvious tonal shift where they have a lot more lighthearted funny characters/encounters, which feels very jarring when there are still encounters of demons that rape your soul
>>
Procyal Philosophy, yay or nay?
>>
>>92425969
Forgot to link the spell
https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1224
>>
>>92425974
Good spell, the moment you could potentially cast it, you have an aid modifier of +15 and the Aid DC is 15. So it's a reliable +1 or +2 circumstance to one check an ally is going to make a round. Very good if combined with large all-or-nothing checks like 2 round horizon thunder sphere or vicious swing. Or just checks in general like trip and grapple.
Useful in a variety of situations.

Only problem with it is it's uncommon and situational, and competing with other good 4th rank spells like invisibility.
>>
>>92425646
>has new math for no real benefit
You mean gets rid of having 8 different calculations to only have 1.
>>
>>92426254
AC, flat-footed AC, touch AC, CMD, flat-footed CMD, crit confirmation AC...
Did I miss anyone?

Also, new thread
>>92425027
>>92425027
>>
>>92424832
That's a lizard, no? Or do merfolk not have a tail?
>>
>>92426356
Don't forget skills, multiple BABs, basically anywhere you get a roll modifier has been brought into the same TEML proficiency calculation.



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