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>No, [ACKS II] won't be released on the ORC License. The ORC License ultimately developed in a direction I very much dislike, as they took the position that the only thing that should be protected is what I consider "fluff". Accordingly I'm devising an alternative. There will be an open license of some sort, just not ORC.
What do you think "should" be protected by copyright in tabletop roleplaying games?
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>>93281355
As a reminder:
>Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted
>But expressions of game mechanics can be copyrighted
>Figuring out the boundary between mechanics and expressions of mechanics is very difficult
>The existing Creative Commons licenses do not allow any differentiation between mechanics, expressions of mechanics, and fluff
>OGL/ORC explicitly disclaims copyright on both mechanics and expressions of mechanics, but explicitly retaining copyright on fluff
I guess Macris wants a license that explicitly retains copyright on both expressions of mechanics and fluff, while disclaiming copyright on the uncopyrightable mechanics themselves. I don't know how well that will work out for him.
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You can't license gnomes, fairies, meeples or measuring sticks. Captcha is JM00 which means even cows agree with me
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>>93281355
>What do you think "should" be protected by copyright in tabletop roleplaying games?
The name of your game. And even then I am iffy.
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>>93281506
You can't copyright the idea of a gnome. But you can copyright a particular expression (statblock) of the idea of a gnome.

>>93281570
That's trademark, not copyright.
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>>93281355
I mean Macris is a lawyer isn't he? Surely he can come up with something.
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>>93281617
He has a law degree but hasn't passed the bar, and has never worked as a contract or copyright lawyer. At best, he might know who to talk to for creating his own game license.
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>>93281583
I refer to the case of the Crown vs Muh Dik that says otherwise. We should push back on this nonsense
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>>93281583
The particular expression of the gnome would have to be in the name and specific fluff characteristics. You can't copyright gnomes doing 1d4+1 damage. That's a game element that would theoretically fall under patent law if any potential patent hadn't expired decades ago, which they did. If your gnomes are called Nomes (don't do that, Wizard of Oz beat you to the punch and Nomes are public domain now) or some other dumb name like Gznooums (the Z, U, and one of the Os are silent) then maybe you'd have a weak case. If your Gznooums had an innate Gznooum-Beam attack, you could maybe add the word Gznooum-Beam as another copyright, and the idea of gnomes shooting beams as a very, very weak copyright (only useful to support stronger ones, really. If someone's copying every last detail, having the details all formalized adds up even if they'd each be individually laughed out of court. It might still be laughed out of the copyright office since it's not very specific or unique), but the idea of having a ranged attack or even an attack that uses a game mechanic that simulates beam effect is once again a matter of patent that's long gone.
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>>93281355
Isn't the only major difference between ORC and OGL "We can't rugpull it from under you" like WOTC did? Not agreeing with that means you just want to profit off people building on your work with your blessing.
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>>93282703
See >>93281411, he might want to copyright expressions of game mechanics.
It is extremely unlikely he wants to go back to OGL.
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>>93282645
>>Macris is apparently broke as fuck, he apparently spent a bunch of time ghostwriting a project that another diet nazi fucked him over on
Where'd you get that? He just ran a really successful campaign for ACKS II ($300k raised on a $50k goal), and is about to run one for Ascendant II.
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>>93282703
The way it works with upstream licensors and licensees is not the same, iirc, and allows for rugpulling in a different way.
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>>93281355
>What do you think "should" be protected by copyright in tabletop roleplaying games?
Very little. Only my very unique and awesome OCs should be protected by copyright, DO NOT STEAL!!!!1!1
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>>93281355
>What do you think "should" be protected by copyright
Almost nothing, because I don't think copyright is a remotely functional system. You need a lot of lawyer hours to either protect your stuff or to defend yourself from a charge of taking someone's stuff, so it only really benefits corporations.
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>>93281411
>>Game mechanics cannot be copyrighted
Just as a writer, wouldn't it make the most sense for Macris to claim copyright on everything knowing that portions of his claim are ultimately uninforceable. Honestly that should be the closest to original authors copyright then there are some open use provisions on his formating, being able to claim to be 'compatible' etc.
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>>93281640
>He's not a real lawyer.
huh. Weird. I thought he was.

>>93281411
Weird. Not that I was considering making ACKS compatible content, but weird nonetheless. You'd think with his law degree he would be familiar with that boardgame copyright precedent.
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>>93282703
and it works based on how the OGL was supposed to work upon release, as opposed to how later people interpreted it where you could take the open stuff and declare nothing you wrote was OGC even if it is dependent on OGC mechanics. its a no rugpull OGL with a potential untested loophole closed.
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>>93283681
Lawyers, and especially unbarred consultation lawyers, never really know the law. They just know what questions to ask their firm's law librarian.
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>>93283681
>>93283733
Fucking half this shit isn't even settled law anyway because nobody wants to be the big megacorp to ruin it for everyone by getting a definitive answer. If they get even the slightest hint that they might lose, they stall and stall and stall and hope you run out of money and then settle. Actually getting some of these questions in front of a court high enough to create precedent and figure out where the boundaries actually are almost never happens.
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>make game that is 90% BECMI and your home rules
>make money off this because of the OGL
>"ERM I DON'T WANT PEOPLE POTENTIALLY USING MY INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY"
This guy is a such a pretentious faggot. Your basic D&D clone isn't any more special than the other dozen basic D&D clones.
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>>93282752
One wonders how much dude actually makes on a Kickstarter. My understanding is the margins aren't great.
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>>93283167
>claim copyright on everything knowing that portions of his claim are ultimately unenforceable
That causes enormous amounts of confusion, because it exposes derivative works to uncertain levels of liability. The entire point of the old OGL was to eliminate this confusion.
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>>93283983
I would still assume that an end result six times over your goal nets you enough to pay bills for a while.
>>93282645
Macris isn't even right wing. His server manages to have active users from the US, Russia, Israel, Palestine, France, Australia and more get along and not talk politics or fight about religion. The only heated arguments you'll see will be about the metric system... for some reason.
I don't know if this is your idea of /pol/tards, but sweet God I wish /pol/ was this tame and civil.
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>>93284959
Save your breath discord ACKShills have come into every dungeon crawling server I'm a part of to push the game and only ever stop when they all eventually get banned for being obnoxious cunts and as cancerous as a fanbase gets and are incapable of not being retarded freaks over their mid retroclone.
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>>93285005
>without being fanatical
Lol apparently not that guy.
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>>93282752
That's not profit. Profit is what pays your mortgage and car note
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>>93285005
I know he's lying, he knows he's lying, I'm just making sure everyone else knows he's lying. I'm unfortunately more than aware of the Discord shilling too. They shat up the SotDL server for like a week by forcing arguments and then totally organically bringing up this hecking based game and posting links to the server.
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>>93285048
>being in a shadow of the poopoopeepee server
this says a lot more about you
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>>93285048
I just say what I know, dude. If you approach this discussion from the angle that I'm genuine but could be mistaken, you could teach me a thing or two and not make an enemy. People can be wrong and retarded on the internet without conspiring against you.
The tweet you posted doesn't seem very nazi either, although it is less neutral than what I've been used to. I don't use xitter so I can't check what's written on the blog.
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>>93283054
>I heard this talking point online and I believe it because I've never created anything worth selling
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I will not and have not ever read a substack or clicked a twitter link or kickstarter update and dont intend to change that today. Sorry about how you got ripped off or whatever over the game literally named -ACK!!!
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>>93283901
ehh. he has historically researched prices for gear and trade goods and construction (probably not copyrightable, but a lot of work), and his base building and domain management and warfare rules, I hear they're actually good.
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>>93285739
I personally hate ACKS because the creator or his shills spam threads about it here relentlessly.
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>>93281355
>literally named his game ACK-!
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>>93285739
I won't be much of a screecher, I just don't buy Hasbro or Paizo products, but if you want to make a thread to bitch about Hasbro and / or about 6e's new pre-order nonsense, or bitch about their employment practices and AI slop, I'll show up with popcorn.

the reason I don't play ACKS has nothing to do with his politics(I'm not convinced he's actually a nazi, but also nobody making new TTRPGs these days is 'decent folk', (though ACKS is one of very few recent games in English I might consider decently designed) - well, maybe Monte Cook is an okay guy, I dunno. but his recent games suck), but while I'm happy to skim Macris' books for ideas to use in other systems, I don't terribly want to play ACKS, because I'm not terribly interested in a rigid-class game system, or AD&D math, and I want a fleshed out detailed skill and task resolution system, and AD&D-likes tend to fail at that as well.
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Do you guys think there would be a market for either a more faithful B/X based ACKS style game? Or alternatively, one that leans more into nuD&D but much different. Like based on a 2d10 mechanic and more freeform classes

>>93281640
What the fuck does he do for money then?
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>>93281411
>I guess Macris wants a license that explicitly retains copyright on both expressions of mechanics and fluff, while disclaiming copyright on the uncopyrightable mechanics themselves.
Sounds a lot like the "BRP-OGL" Chaosium wrote that forbids you to make a horror game or otherwise compete with them.
https://www.chaosium.com/brp-system-reference-document/
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>>93281355
>What do you think "should" be protected by copyright
Nothing.
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>>93284307
>I would still assume that an end result six times over your goal nets you enough to pay bills for a while

That depends entirely on how much his pledge per user is, how many are getting print copies vs. just PDFs, how many physical stretch goals he has, and how fucked shipping is when he's done. There have been several high profile kickstarters that over successed themselves into bankruptcy; I'm not saying that Macris is gonna do this, but, as I said before, the margins are these things are really thin, and coming in over your goal doesn't mean you're rolling around in cash. More backers usually means more product you're on the hook for.
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>>93285739
>You aren’t allowed to discuss WotC’s egregious practices or Evil Hat Games’ scummy behavior or Paizo’s retardation,

This happens constantly. People discuss this constantly. Why lie about this?
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>>93281355
>ACKS
based
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>>93281355
All Gaming is Open
Unless you're a Shill
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>>93287123
Imagine fellating a corporation holy shit.
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>>93287617
Anyone who likes ACKS is a shill, they are all the same. No other game has this cult like mentality or sense of persecution. I submit for proof that Macris has been banned from every forum that he has made a presence on.
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>>93288004
>Everyone who disagrees with me is my enemy
>They all believe the same thing
>And they deserve to be persecuted
>My evidence for this? The fact we persecute them
K
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>>93288004
Anyone worth reading is banned from RPG.net. That site's a powertripping trash heap. & ENworld likes to sell things (like moderator rights), take the money, and then not deliver the goods. Is he banned anywhere that's not run by power-tripping dbags or thieves?
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>>93289452
I was going to list therpgsite, but you said no powertripping dbags or thieves (this umbrella includes Macris himself). I'm pretty sure he's banned from Dragonsfoot and anywhere else worth mentioning.
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>>93291259
>Dragonsfoot
Why must you turn this board into a temple to your lies?
https://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=90900
The chutzpah to try and bullshit about this when it's a google away because 'I need somewhere that isn't run by obvious scumfucks with an agenda to reference' is shameless.
Have some self respect for once in your life, anon.
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>>93282734
>he might want to copyright expressions of game mechanics.
He doesn't need to, those are already copyrighted.
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>>93283681
>I thought he was.
He graduated from Harvard Law School magna cum laude.
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>>93283901
>game that is 90% BECMI and your home rules
Tell me you haven't read ACKS without telling me.
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>>93285761
You could say that of every single game, retard. Just ignore the threads for games you don't like. It's as simple as that.
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>>93285350
> I hear they're actually good.
I know that because its substantively the same chassis as basic D&D, we won't be interacting with those things at all 90% of the time. Dungeon focused game doesn't stop being because the prices aren't retarded anymore and its got a mediocre wargame attached to it.
>>93294177
>read ACKS
Nigger, I've played and run ACKS. Tweaking the prices and throwing in population distribution tables that most people aren't gonna bother with doesn't change that it's the samn game I've been playing for nearly 50 years.
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>>93287123
>The more I read the Companion and Master rules of BECMI, the more I see him just having copied them without the expanded level range.
Yeah, that's bullshit. There's a total of what, two pages on domains in the Companion and nothing in the Master set, and it's the usual unplaytested crap we've come to expect from Mentzer.

ACKS, on the other hand, had hundreds of pages on the topic, fully fleshed, painstakingly historically researched and thoroughly playtested.

An honest criticism would be that it is excessive. Saying that he copied that stuff from BECMI means you are lying, nobody is that stupid.
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>>93294185
Funnily enough, When people started attacking Macris about this when he was a nobody I did a little bit of research on him and found he did a crazy amount of pro-bono stuff for blacks. I think the accusations of being 'alt-right' broke him he actually became a right-winger.
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>>93281778
baum's nomes are better than standard fantasy gnomes anyway
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>>93281355
The logical continuation of my stance on buying games. I pirate everything, but I'd never consider charging money for my game material either.
This is a hobby, not a job. The constant attempts to get rich writing elf games really twists my nuts. Hundreds of presumably smart people wasting their potential.
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>>93294253
It isn't about getting rich, if you give away your material for free it'll be considered worthless and nobody will ever seriously engage with it solely because you gave it away.
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>>93294277
Another fact to consider when you work for free even if it's your hobby your working for free for the benefit of a company, everything you do for free will be monetized by somebody else. This will eat you alive.
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Macris politics are the same as Gygax. Both lolberts. Gygax was a fucking Jehovah's witness, which is even worse. Doesn't matter.
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>>93294226
>mediocre wargame
Literally better than any wargame ever attached to a d20 game. Kill yourself. Hex and chit is based and so are tens of thousands of troops.
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>>93294367
>any wargame ever attached to a d20 game
What an incredibly low bar against which to measure anything hahaha
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>>93294397
>What an incredibly low bar against which to measure anything hahaha
idk mate, ive had a lot of fun with chainmail and its improved by book of war, it just doesn't scale to antiquity sized conflicts. battlesystem was ok too. the only shit one was the half-assed swords and spells system. what wargames do you play faggot?
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>>93289452
>ENworld likes to sell things (like moderator rights), take the money, and then not deliver the goods.
really? they are based for that, retards paying for that suff deserve and need to be robbed
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>>93281355
>Some shit nobody cares about nor should care about
>Let's inform people, so they can learn about it and rise both awareness and online positioning
Are you fucking retarded or something? Did you start using net last week?
If you want something to die online, the only step is to not link to it.

As for your question:
I think you are retarded and should rethink your life
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>saves your hobby
>does it for free

Another day, another thank god I play bfrpg and I don't have to deal with this nonsense.
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>>93294975
This. Also based Gonnerman had the courage to expose the XP for gold retardery for what it is.
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>>93295591
>expose the XP for gold retardery for what it is.
Alright, I'm curious.
Lay it out for me, why is XP for gold retarded?
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>>93295604
NTA but tying the system's character progression to a setting's economics is intrinsically stupid.
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>>93295934
>tying the system's character progression to a setting's economics is intrinsically stupid.
with fiat currency it is, with currency backed precious metals or other such limited physical guarantee it's fine
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>>93295591
What do you use then?
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>>93295934
>intrinsically stupid.
Explain how, be specific. I find it's a useful way of putting players in the right mindset.
You don't have to fight the world, you don't have to take jobs you don't want to, you just need to get the money.
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>>93296448
NTA, but my understanding of things is that XP for gold reinforces the worst kind of gameplay loop where the players are encouraged to do everything short of physically leaving the game to not interface with the systems of the game.
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>>93296448
>Explain how, be specific.
In a world, or even a region low on treasure, you are unable to earn a sizable amount of gold and thus XP. It's as if picking trash on the New York subway gives you more life experience than being an astronaut who flies to the moon.
>I find it's a useful way of putting players in the right mindset.
There is no one right mindset.
And my experience with gold-as-XP and classic TSR modules is that whether we manage to find and open the treasure chest is what decides whether we get 10k XP this session for clearing the dungeon or just 1k. As if the chest was the most interesting and instructive part of the experience.
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>>93296774
>In a world, or even a region low on treasure, you are unable to earn a sizable amount of gold and thus XP.
I see where you're coming from on this, but at that point you're being too literal in your interpretation. Treasure is a legitimate source of gold and moon rocks are obscenely valuable treasure (to use your own metaphor).
>There is no one right mindset
Hard disagree, if there's a wrong mindset (that being 'Every fight needs to be a slug out to the death because XP is gained from combat and if creatures acted realistically it'd be 'too easy' for players') then there are right-er ones and eventually a right one.
Which I believe to be something along the lines of:
>XP is gained through thoughtfully engaging with the world and playing within it
Gold is just the measuring stick of 'things my character has done and survived'
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>>93281355
ACKS? More like -ACKsss
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>>93294975
>does OSR before OSR and better than any OSR since
>makes the pdf free
>print at dirt cheap cost
>realizes OSR retards don't consider BFRPG a retroclone
>for spite, makes one of the best LBB clones
>pdfs still free
>print at dirt cheap cost
>for spite
Can't top him. Too based.
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>>93294294
Eat me alive? How would I even notice?
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>>93281355
>GW, WOTC, and every other TTRPG company do practically nothing but blatantly rip off other established settings, concepts, and historical shit
>Get extremely pissy and sue/threaten people for breathing near "their" IP even if it doesn't violate shit or literally isn't their IP

This shit is annoying and retarded
>>
Why pathetic losers are so obsessed with this copyright shit? Make your own game and forget everything else. And stop supporting and consuming corporate trash products.
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>>93281411
Expression of mechanics for tabletop games is simple in countries that dont have fucked copyright/keep to berne convention, its "do you have gimmicks with dice" ala wargaming scatter, deployment, area of impact and similar nonsense thats just "if number on Dn = x then its y". The x = then its y is the expression, everything else is mechanics.
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>>93294294
>everything you do for free will be monetized by somebody else
Okay. In fact, on some of the stuff I do for free, I openly invite anyone reading it to steal it and sell it elsewhere if they want to,
>This will eat you alive
No, it won't. I simply won't care and will continue doing the things I enjoy.
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>>93301636
Problem is sometimes you end up with things like Whelves, Dworbs, Orgs and Gobors.
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>>93299179
Also the amazing cover artwork, so bad it sorts the men from the boys why yes I do want to liv in that world it looks fun actually problem
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>>93287617
I literally only heard about the game from shills. Almost nobody I know talks about it, and frankly the name fucking sucks. I love GURPS and it has the same problem, you hear the name and you immediately lose interest
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>>93302414
GURPS is a joke, opinion discarded
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>>93302429
Yes G.U.R.P.S. was originally a joke placeholder name that they ended up keeping.
ACK-! is dead fucking serious
>>
Copyright literally should not exist. I don't think anything ever should be copyrighted or copywritten. It helps only the strongest corporations who can afford the most expensive and cut-throat of lawyers and hurts everyone else ever. Monopolies are trivial to make and maintain because of this shit.
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>>93294170
That just requires a sizeable donation or a well-timed photograph of a faculty member. Harvard is a meme school.
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>>93296600
I have never found this to be the case. Conversely when I have run XP-for-combat then yea the players interact with the systems... by killing everything I put in front of them. Too many innocent quest givers have been slain because a player thought he could take him.
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>>93303800
I play Call of Cthulhu and Traveller, so I don't really know how it works. That is just the argument I've seen bandied around by BFRPG fans.
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>>93296903
>Gold is just the measuring stick of 'things my character has done and survived'
It is a bad and nonsensical measuring stick for that. It obviously makes more sense that you get xp from actual experiences (encounters and turned in quests). I don't understand how you could even argue that.
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>>93303800
Sounds like you have retarded players, probably because they were taught be a retarded GM
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>>93302337
So? Why is that necessarily bad?
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>>93304183
It's arbitrary and low-value.
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>>93302796
>>93302414
there's a lot of stupid cunts on /tg/ but the ACK countershills are up there
whining about the initialism from a game published a decade ago because it reminds you of a spammed meme from 2021 is something else
your imagination must just be an endless parade of frogs and soijacks
dumber than a sack of potatoes
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>>93281355
Reminder that RPG licenses are a big stupid meme.
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>>93304104
Players respond to incentives. Xp for combat incentives attacking anything you think you can kill/defeat. My players weren't retarded the game designers were for using that as the default assumption.
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>>93304101
>xp from actual experiences (encounters and turned in quests).
I'll make the argument:
Give me a measure of experience that isn't just 'The DM says it's worth this much'
How can you, as a player, make a rational decision on what is or isn't worth the risk.
Beyond and above that, encounters-as-XP and quests-as-XP both restrict what players can do to gain XP heavily.
Encounters-as-XP always ends up as 'Combat as XP' and combat becomes the sole focus because otherwise you 'haven't earned it properly'; quests-as-XP necessitates players being tied to NPC quest givers rather than going off their own bat and being able to just decide they want to raid the Tomb of Ahmahteef, the Toothfairy Lich off their own bat and being rewarded for it.

Both also gear the game entirely towards wandering heroes who turn up in a place, do some jobs then fuck off when things stabilize, never gaining power, respect or influence of their own beyond the point of their sword. Which is, frankly, the worst shift D&D has gone through over time.

I'd sincerely say that the reason backstory-as-character bullshit and every story having to be an epic fantasy about punching god in the dick have become so common is because of this shift.
When your backstory is the only chance you get to have lasting impact on the world or define your character, of course you're going to go all in with a Godblooded Hexblade who wields Kuntsmacka, the Blacksword of Bootyruination; and of course the game has to keep upping the stakes constantly to 'save the whole world' when you never put down roots anywhere and become invested in a specific area or group, so the only thing you can invest in is 'Worlds in danger; no more world? No more place to do things or keep your shit brah'.

Meanwhile if players get a chance to make an actual impact on the world? To gain influence, start a nation, ect, then it's fine to start off with little to no backstory.
Because you're going to build your legend as the game goes.
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>>93305656
And to back my case I'm going to give an actual example from an ongoing game;
This is Phawaq Ccora, she is a temple assassin, her backstory was a single line
>Offered to the temple as tribute by a local tribe, trained as an acolyte & assassin
Her only distinguishing features at the start of the game were having good Str & Int, and starting on 2 HP because the party found her as one of a handful of survivors of her temple being massacred. Because they saved the High Priest he told her to join them so she could help go stab the assholes involved in murdering their order.
Pretty basic, pretty boring. Over the course of the game she has:
>Negotiated with a pack of Sacred Temple Guardians (Vampire & Thralls) to save the parties lives because said Guardians were also Lizardfolk of her clan
>Delved into a long buried temple and helped the party make alliance with the strange things that lurked below because they followed the same god as her, giving the party access to its treasures with hardly any fighting, just pure negotiation, roleplay and in-depth understanding of her own faith
>Found and taken up the Obsidian Spear, a +2/+3 vs humans spear covered in ancient writings that is the symbol of her clan
>Uncovered the lost/forbidden holy city that her tribe originally came from and uncovered some of its strange secrets, including bringing back into the fold/alliance with her people the 'Last Spawning' (A tribe of Troglodytes, who in setting are Lizardfolk that came out all fucked up.)
>Danced before the 3 sacred altars of her ancestral city, qualifying her to be a chieftain and gained the blessing of their goddess (+8 on her Hide roll & moved into a custom 'prestige' assassin class which traded having d8 hitpoints for d6 hitpoints to instead gain slow progressing divine magic of the stabbing people variety)
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>>93305835
>Helped overthrow a usurper backed by heretical priests who had taken over a lizardfolk clan and in doing so set herself up as potentially their future chieftain, or at least gained access to a steady stream of would-be assassins
>Gained a Henchman called Ajtzak, whose entire gimmick is sneaking around and wielding/throwing spears
>Taken up the Black-Talon, an intelligent talon-claw last wielded by one of the ancient assassins of an earlier age after being pointed to it by the wraith of one of the High Priests of the ancestral city (+2/+4 on Sneak Attacks, roll twice on all sneak dice and take best, sneak damage is necrotic, silence effect on creatures in base contact during combat, acts as a bag of holding for corpses, Motivation: Train Master Assassins)
>Uncovered the secret at the heart of the great temple and brought it safely past the many veils that guard it (Beat a pretty damn complex puzzle and found a refluffed Iron-bound Codex)
>Gained a really nice hat, pic related is her new token after getting hold of it.
None of this required an NPC telling them what to do, none of those non-combat negotiations and alliances were ever a detriment, their player never felt obligated to get into a stupid fight because 'Otherwise we miss out/aren't letting the DM do the cool setpiece combat that they clearly had planned'
Hell, most combat has been intentionally avoided, instead the group scouts, they plan, they negotiate and have, many times, retreated from the possibility of some really nice treasures to instead focus on other things that you wouldn't even consider treasure.
And, very importantly, they were rewarded for actually investing in the factions they've encountered because they know that they're not going to be hustled on by the DM because 'Well I ran out of content for this area, the baron throws you a bag of gold and tells you he's giving you $100 to fuck off, then pointing you to the next town over for a new job.'
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>>93305841
Breaking into the mountain home of a bunch of winged humanoids only to be caught by a patrol of guards, then, instead of fighting them, to recognize said guards were slaves by their clipped wings and instead offer to enjoin in a conspiracy with them, raid some abandoned areas and then use that cash to purchase them so they can escape was a highlight I'd say.
And yes, they did get XP for the things they managed to steal and sell back to the winged folk, since it was treasure. They even managed to blag their way into getting a trade ring from the Winged Folk, which means they're now able to trade with them without worrying about being kidnapped to come serve as slaves in their decadent city high up on the mountain.
They also then took those slaves back to the temple Phawaq Ccora originally came from and paid the priests to restore their wings.
Instead of going into the dungeon as a slaughterfest they played politics and traded the opportunity to gain some cool ice themed magic items for an entire squadron of flying scouts who'll be incredibly helpful in mapping the area and accessing further content. What more could you ask for really?

When you are rewarded for creating and exploiting your own opportunities rather than just following what the DM already has planned because that's-where-the-XP-lies, you end up thinking of solutions that were never intended and get to experience the joys of emergent gameplay.
It's a completely different mindset and it comes through in the course of the game and how you interact with the world.
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>>93305863
>>93305841
>>93305835

im.not reading all that. fuck off
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>>93305900
Well if you're the original anon, I'm sorry your brain is too fried by twitter to read more than 3-4 sentences.
If you're NTA then who the fuck asked you, fuckhead?
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>>93305908
you can easily condense your point into one post you just choose not too because you need to have some psudeo-intellectuial superiority complex about it
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>>93306334
>I-it can be said in one p-
Interesting you'd know that given you admitted you've not read it.
Go on, keep going, give it the ol' college try.
Though given how you're doing so far I'm sure we can accept grades 4-9.
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>>93282645
>m-muh /pol/!
It's time for your meds, polanon.
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The only one i'd bet on is the AELF one from Mythmere simply because he doesn't seem to be trying to claim ownership over Gygax's shit and he's a practicing lawyer who was part of the original OSRIC crowd.
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>>93305656
>quests-as-XP necessitates players being tied to NPC quest givers rather than going off their own bat and being able to just decide they want to raid the Tomb of Ahmahteef, the Toothfairy Lich off their own bat and being rewarded for it.
No. Entering the tomb automatically gives you the "Investigate the tomb" quest. Dealing with Ahmahteef, whether by defeating him or letting him pull your teeth completes it.
I'd add a smaller amount of XP for finding a new location and entering a new level of it and that's all the sources of XP my group would need.
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>>93305656
>>93305835
>>93305841
>>93305863
It's still stupid and immersion breaking to the highest decree.
I am not saying that it doesnt work as a system if players are invested in it and try hard to avoid how retarded it feels but it is no way better than any other exp system.
In the end it;s all up to the DM.
The amount of treasure you spread around the map is just another way to fix the amount of exp available. It is no different from giving a region a certain amount of exp for monsters or quests from dmpcs and letting the players drain them all.
The players may want to settle down, in modern dnd and do so with their funds, nothing is stopping them and because i dm cant properly handle encounters as exp and it devolves to combat as exp doesnt say anything about the system.
I am sure there are countless really bad osr gms that run awful games the same way there are awful modern dnd dms.
The desire to be a heroic character that moves from problem to problem and is not set for riches but glory or whatever is just flavour. If you prefer the one over the other ok, but one isnt inherently better and immergent gameplay isnt tied to gold for exp no matter how much osr tries to tout this horn.
Games outside the dnd spectrum have solved this issue a long time ago and are perfectly capable of emergent gameplay without any such retarded loop.
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>>93305656
>How can you, as a player, make a rational decision on what is or isn't worth the risk.
Instead of the character deciding based on in-game risk/reward. How very rollplay-y of you.
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>>93295591
source for this?



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