"I stole the links like WotC stole commander" EditionTQHow long until lotus is unbanned?
>>94053141Neither dockside, lotus or crypt are getting unbanned.
Never should have been banned. Should have been reprinted and stopped into every commander precon. Same with mana crypt
>>94053147Worse than banning
>>94053144>Neither dockside, lotus or crypt are getting unbanned.i will check your dubs, but i will not credit your mistaken opinion
>>94053151Hey man hang on to the copium. There really is no logical reason for them to unban.
>>94053153the same could be said for Nadu, it was literally made for commander
>>94053153There was also no reason not to print Jeweled Lotus in every precon since it's a card exclusive for commander, a (previously) unofficial casual format.
Gay Bolas.Straight Bolas.Same energy.
>They'll reverse the bans. My investments are safe. They'll reverse the bans. These cards were not design mistakes. They'll reverse the bans. My cardboard isn't worthless. They'll reverse the bans.....
>>94053170Actually there's a good reason not to do that. It begs people to literally send death threats and bomb threats and harass their employees to get what they want. There is no logical reason to unban the cards outside of genuinely just despising the RC and their employees and wanting to send a very clear "Fuck you."
I love non deterministic combos and vibed with Nadu. Now that he's gone do I go with Gitrog or someone for Eggs?
Damn weird how my decks went from jank to cEDH over night. I wonder if I'll even be able to play them again or if I'm basically out hundreds lmao
Gay Bolas
>>94053141Nothing will be banned except Shaharazad, Falling Star, Chaos Orb, Ante, Conspiracies, and Stickers. There will only be "Tier 4">Source?My future self told me in a rare moment of lucidity
>>94053193>people>actually WotC employeespick one
>>94053193That is now. They should have done it in the first place when they created the card. Even to put it in place of Sol Ring.
>>94053203also wotc is going to give us all a pony and run EDH for the health of the format and not money
Cap max life to sixty (60).
has anyone posted any evidence of these death theats anywhere yet?
>>94053180BUYTHEDIP
>>94053203Black Lotus into The One Ring, the horrors of 2024
Thirty (30) starting life is objectively superior to fourty (40)
>>94053219which bracket is 30 life and which is 40?
>>94053176where is asexual bolas?
>>94053213Sue them and go for discovery.
>>94053201Same energy.
Make all RL tier 4. Misers' cage is OP
>>94053237kookus too strong
>>94053237Me watching someone try to say that Chains of Mephistopheles makes you discard your whole hand and mill 1.
WIZARDS OF THE COAST YOU DUMB MOTHERFUCKERS I KNOW YOU BROWSE HERE. LISTEN TO ME AND LISTEN WELL FAGGOTS>pioneer edh>modern edh>legacy edh>vintage edhNO WORRIES ABOUT TIERS, NO NEED TO CATALOGUE AND RANK EVERY FUCKING CARD, NO BUTTHURT ASSMAD REDDITARDS IN YOUR EMAILS. THE FORMATS WOULD SELF REGULATE VERY FAST. IT WOULD HAVE SYNERGISTIC EFFECTS ON COMMANDERBABBIES TRYING 60 CARD. IT WOULD SELL PACKS.THIS IS YOUR ONCE CHANCE TO GET THIS SHIT RIGHT YOU GIGANTIC COCKSUCKING FUCKWITS. ITS SO EASY. ITS GOOD FOR YOUR BUSINESS, IT REQUIRES 0 FUCKING WORK FROM YOU LAZY HACKS. IT SELLS PACKS. DO IT. DO IT YOU FUCKING LAZY GAY FAGGOT RETARDS
>>94053223Obviously the superior.
How tf do I build miracle precon without it being gross stax shit or do I just play something else? (I like wet orzhov)
>>94053198
>>94053245I like it.
>>94053245are these the death threats i have heard so much about?
>>94053245>Standard EDH>MH Block EDH>MH Block EDH>MH Block EDH???
>>94053250I love this little froggy nigga like you wouldn't believe>>94053256I'm LITERALLY shaking rn and fearing for my safety, be better /edhg/
>>94053203Honestly, it's weird that there are 4 tiers instead of 3. Having a "fuck it, go wild" tier seems appropriate, especially since they just made a bunch of 30th anniversary proxies that you can get for cheap. Anything Goes is a very popular Smogon Format, after all.
>>94050788Previous thread because OP is a faggot.
>>94053256THE ONLY PERSON IM GOING TO KILL IS MYSELF WHEN WIZARDS FUCKS UP THE EASIEST SLAM DUNK OF THEIR ENTIRE FUCKING EXISTENCE
>>94053256Occam's razor says death threats happened
>>94053274Anything Goes is tier 6, bro.
>>94053284HE'S THEREATENING ME WITH A RAZOR NOW
>they think I'm going to read fucking spread sheets on tiers and shit to play a casual formatI ain't got time for that shit. Nor am I putting my deck into fucking bracket checkers.
>what's your favorite tier 1 cEDH commander, anon?
>>94053294This is my current tier 4 CEDH commander
>WotC officials says in their recent live stream that Sol Ring is tier 0 and never gets the axe'd.How lovely. My picrel always has a target.
>>94053290That's fine. Unregistered decks automatically go to tier 4. glhf
>guy you have never met and who has never been to the store shows up and asks to play>he uses a theft deck.I sometimes wonder if this just a sly and slow way to steal some cards by "forgetting" to give them back and then never returning.
>>94053305>Um I'M GONNA FORCE YOU TO USE THIS SYSTEM HEHEI don't think so pardner. I'll be using no tier and you'll enjoy it or ya gettin the ole 1 2 1 2 knuckle sangwhich
>>94053198Flip Heliod can be fun. You cast a wheel/timetwister effect and see what happens. If you're anything like me, you'll draw four lands, two mana rocks, and a counterspell and decide you'd rather walk into oncoming traffic then play the rest of the game out
>>94053308Yes, I will force you to use the OFFICIAL system.
How unrealistic is it to try and make him playable?
>only one of the SLDs actually sold out fast this timehuh. I wonder if they actually tried more stock or if no one gives a fuck about Miku anymore or Ghostbusters.
>oh are we playing untiered decks? ok, you guys will love this untiered deck i brewed....
>>94053332I 100% support unbanning Emmy. No objections here.
>>94053308"no tier" is the highest tier though. You're insisting on exactly what he said.
>>94053323I think he could be playable if you fill the deck with ping effects that can hit creatures to trigger his ability as much as possible and then just treat him like a voltron commander, but he'd always just be a worse version of Ob
>>94053346EDH a week ago was all cEDH? Cool.
>>94053323Impossible in a post bracket world.
>>94053349That's not a bad idea, also giving him deathtouch is solid. Thanks for the idea and yeah sadly ob does just completely outclass him
>>94053351Literally, yes. Last week EDH as we knew would be considered tier 4 by the new bracket system.
Let's face it, this bracket thing is not going to work. Maybe new players will stick to it but most older players won't bother and just carry on as they used to. Nobody with more than a few decks is going to reassemble them to fit in some stupid bracket lol. WotC just wiped a large portion of their playerbase who is just tired of this shit and created a 4-way rift among their new players.
>>94053369Needs the pauper players sitting on the floor playing underneath the vintage table
>>94053351Tell me, how did the EDH banlist differ from the cEDH banlist last week?
>>94053378I am shocked how optimistic people seem to be about this bracket shit. Especially with it being done in such a sloppy and lazy way
Jesus christ this art
>>94053401Not the most flattering angle, Tiff.
>>94053390>Optimistic We're gleefully awaiting the release of the tier lists so we can laugh at all the stupid decisions and point out broken cards that they accidentally made tier 1. It's going to be a total shitshow.
The whole idea of tiers is anti-casual. Any rules like that will just be gamed, leading to the creation of broken decks within each tier. Only this time the min-maxers will have an excuse that their super-deck is tier-legal and therefore not broken. This is the exact opposite of the intended effect.MtG is too complex for a couple of interventionist rules to be able to dictate the feel of low-level play. The only sensible way to figure out "casual" powerlevels is to build a consensus from the bottom-up based on the player's impressions, i.e. exactly what had been the case up until now. But this way of thinking is impossible for a corporation.
>Perverts the truth>Demonic>Harms self>Toxic to others>Grotesque body>StubbleThe ultimate tranny commander.
>>94053413There are many people who are cautiously optimistic about this. More people on twitter than in this thread.
>>94053415This isn't a casual format anymore. It's not even one format anymore.And yeah, an idea that clearly came up with probably in under 48 hours before sharing it, is complete shit with so many fucking flaws.
>>94053415The only way to enforce low level play is with point systems based on card price, but that requires formal acknowledgement of the secondary market
>>94053420>the joke didn't land the last 4 times....maybe this time!
>>94053415this
>>94053429Are you STILL seething about this? He only does it to get a rise out of you.
>>94053433Rule of goats, anon.
>>94053415It also gives players the ability to push back against rule 0 questions about their deck. If you say "we don't want to play with your deck that is officially recognized as fine by the company making the game we are playing" people are going to push back more than "Our opinion is your deck is too strong here." There will be a lot of "But WOTC says it's fine so why won't you let me play it?!?" followed by yelling and anger.
>>94053428You're still missing the point, anon. Regulating the cards by merely ranking each of them in isolation, even dismissing the obvious problems of keeping up to date, is not a sufficient solution. The problem is much, much more intricate than that.
>>94053401>GET PREGNANT
>>94053498I've seen her kid. I don't want more.
>>94053420>tries to get everyone to go along with their delusional nonsense>doesn't shut up about it>actively makes online space worse
>>94053422Cautiously being the keyword here I think. Personally I'd welcome a relatively simple and generally agreed way to build low powered decks, but chances are very high that WotC fucks it up somehow. I feel like bracket 1 will be a meme anyway. Where everything that generates even a bit of value automatically gets added.
Somehow wizards managed to fuck up brackets without even releasing the list by saying that tier 1 is the bottom tier instead of the top tier. There's people confused fucking everywhere about it
>>94053530we airplane control style
>>94053458I don't think an intricate solution would be a good one. The simpler it is, the better. You don't wanna make people cross reference a list with their deck for not only cards, but also some arbitrary values or combinations of cards. It very quickly gets out of hand and thus no one would be able to check a deck without a tool.
>>94053521I'm expecting things like Time Vault to slip through the cracks on the first draft because everyone is so used to them being banned under the old system.
Why do we HAVE to have something like points or tiers or whatever? What the fuck was wrong with before?
>>94053539"we need to shoot ourselves in the face, we need to fuck things upwe need to get our hands into something that was fine, and make everything awfulwe HAVE to destroy" - wotc's pathological drive to ruin things
>>94053539Nothing was wrong with the previous system but investorbros ruined everything as they usually do.
>>94053539wotc didn't like how it was before, and now wotc is in charge of how it will be going forward
>>94053545They will kill their golden goose.
>>94053535Ah, but that was exactly my point. I agree the solution must be simple, and also wanted to show that even "complex" rules are still naive and way, way too simplistic to have the intended effect. So since official decrees will never be sophisticated enough, the best thing to do is to defer to player judgement instead.
>>94053538That one summary mentioned that they're also open to more brackets with like 5 for cEDH for example, so for now I think they'll just keep the banlist anyway. But the first version is gonna be hilarious. Maybe we'll have sunsetting decent by the 5th version or so.
>>94053539makes it easier to sell pushed cards or something i guess
>>94053355this. it worries me they aren't even talking about commanders themselves in brackets, just single cards. OP commanders snowballing out of control is the biggest problem with modern EDH
>>94053250Flubs with a bunch of spell copy effects, a few good slimes and 25 copies of Slime Against Humanity is a blast
>>94053583It's going to be some shit like "Golos is tier 4 as a commander and tier 2 in the 99"
>>94053276you just earned yourself another no links thread tomorrow, pal
>>94053539What was wrong was that the banlist had served dual purposes of ensuring basic functioning of the format AND regulating high-level play.There are cards that are universally accepted to be ill-suited for commander, and including them in a deck has a high chance of breaking the format on a mechanical level. These are fine to ban always.But then there are cards, which are simply stronger than other cards, that tend to dominate the play. Here it's not so clear-cut whether they should be prohibited to everyone. Some players might have fun with them, while others want them gone. Especially cEDH people, who tend to exploit the rules and are more used to bans forcing meta changes.Both of these card types are in a single bag of "banned cards". This creates tension.The solution, instead of this tier idiocy, was of course for cEDH people to stop being babies and just come up with their own banlist, with the understanding that everything not forbidden is allowed. And the casuals could have continued to use the baseline banlist that protected basic integrity of the game while dealing with other problematic cards with Rule 0.
>>94053438>It also gives players the ability to push back against rule 0 questions about their deckLmao why is this an issue? Are you autistic, mute or what? Why even play with other people, go play some solo game by yourself. Fucking retards, I swear, no wonder this game went to this shitshow.
>>94053620the issue is he wants to pubstomp for easy wins to stroke his fragile ego
>>94053420and another one for the 4chanx filters
>2 days after the collapse>normies still think this was because of death threats>/edhg/ still crying about difficulties with tiers
>>94053420kek
all my decks will be tier 4 just because I run stax in my shit piles to try and keep upI will be assumed to accept losing to combo like thoracle every game because of thisI don't feel so good
>>94053583low power commanders often need some oompf from higher power cards to make up for the fact the deck is jank. Now, those decks that basically had to have power cards to even compete with precons must now face Top tier cEDH decks lmaoJank commanders are fucking dead.
>>94053620Your post makes no real sense bro. And you seem to be itching for some argument that isn't there. Step outside and take a deep breath
>>94053654Yeah I'm just dumpstering my shit piles and building cEDH decks since there's no real incentive to not go all out anymore.
>join bracket 1 game>play an older commander>opponents value engines running out of control>can't tutor for an answer because they're banned>manage to finally cast my commander >die to 400 tokens with 100 counters on them
>>94053323Well, Pyrohemia and Pestilence (Maybe Pestilence Demon and Withering Wisps) are immediate includes.
>>94053665all answers will be t2 anyways
>>94053658I'm curious what you think low powered commanders need to compete. I'm playing Tasha who honestly sucks, but if bracket 1 or 2 really is just barebones stuff, I don't know how other decks will pull much ahead of her. Sol-ring+signet starts at great to get her out early and generate value, but my opponents can also do the same to never let me keep her on the board for example.
I hope they run this shit into the ground, crater all of the inflated prices and I can just buy some nice looking cardboard of shit that I like. It's not like I even fucking play anymore anyways.
>>94053665>his deck isn't good unless it has tutors
>>94053676>>94053665>>94053658>>94053654>>94053594>>94053583>>94053571No one is going to play with tiers. Stop acting like they matter.
So this is the price I have to pay for not dogshit Gix art, huh?
>>94053663The truly hilarious part is that this post would be more appropriate for a change from a tier system to a single banlist. You guys are lost in your own fantasy.
>>94053677Tasha isn't something like, say...Dwarf tribal or imnami all is one or any other total shitball kamigawa commander. Yes, those decks need some power because their overall power of their theme is low.And certain themes would need certain cards just due to how the commander and theme works.Though yes Tasha will be hurt if they touch any mill, any steal cards etc.
>>94053698Shockingly after we learned people dislike sudden changes last week, it turns out people still dislike massive sudden changes.lmao half the complaints about the bannings were "THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT ON A WATCH LIST OR WARN US" but a total redesign of the format one morning out of fucking no where ain't no big deal.
>>94053698They just want something to complain about
>>94053699I don't play any mill, I just take what I get honestly. My deck is just Tasha strat, ramp and control.
>>94053687Refusing to play with tiers means you automatically get shunted to bracket 4. You'll play with tiers whether you want to or not.
>>94053706Pretty easy when your deck is entirely invalidated one morning because investorbros got mad.
>>94053705It's been 2 fucking days, you don't even know what the fuck a tier system is and you're still crying about it.At least Wizards put out a call for community input on how it should work. More than the RC ever did.
>>94053715>IT MIGHT BE GOOD ANON!!It could come with a free blowjob and I don't like it. I will complain because no scenario outside of rescinding the idea is acceptable to me, wotc shill.Unneeded change is bad.
>>94053712>>94053714>your deck is entirely invalidated>you automatically get shunted to bracket 4By whom exactly?
>>94053694or you just proxy like a sane human being with a healthy relationship to money
>>94053705>THEY DIDN'T HAVE IT ON A WATCH LIST OR WARN US
>>94053694Lol thats the art from the Vanguard cards on MTGO. still good though
>>94053725>a reddit post from 3 years ago by a dead guy is fair warning!!!
>>94053717WotC. Haven't you heard? They've taken over the EDH format.
>>94053717It's literally a case of you cannot not communicate. Even if you ignore it, your deck will be categorised into one of those brackets by definition. And people will be able to evaluate it as you play.
>>94053729>if you're considering paying a premium for the card on the secondary market, caveat emptorThis will never stop being true
Still not using your brackets.
>>94053730>>94053734Sorry I missed the bit where Wizards kicks in the door and holds you at gunpoint.I didn't know they could do that, I thought you'd turn up to your LGS, say "are we playing tiers?" and someone says "no that's fuckin' gay lol" and then you play as you always did.
>>94053729>new card gets printed>founding member of the RC says it's on his watch list >this is somehow not a warningKeeping malding, investorbro. You should have listened.
>>94053744>shows up at a modern tournament with a legacy deck>WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN'T PLAY MY DECK WHO MADE THAT RULE
>>94053744>"are we playing tiers?""yes"
>>94053736>>94053747>3 years go by>the guy who said it fucking dies>there is no public watch list>there is no communication by the RC>they don't even tell their own CAG until a week beforehand>they protect Sol Ring because "muh iconic card"Yeah nah. That's not warning. How is anyone to know? What if the RC decided in that time that JewLo is actually not played that often? What if they decided that because it was designed for Commander it should have the same iconic status as Sol Ring?All I'm getting from you is "I think it was a good ban, I didn't own the card anyway, so I'm going to be dismissive about the actions of others as if my own inaction was a choice and not abject poverty"
All 5 color commanders will be tier 4 except for partner 5 color.
>>94053752When did EDH get sanctioned tournaments? Shit so much announced so quickly!>>94053757Said literally no one ever.
>>94053686this but Okaum and Zndrsplt decks without Krark's thumb
>>94053744You just fail to realise that the answers "no" and "yes, bracket 4" are functionally the same to that question.
>>94053767This is a profoundly retarded post, you should be proud.
Yes I only play basics in my deck.
>>94053760I'm not talking about JewLo specifically. It doesn't matter the card, doesn't matter the timeframe, doesn't matter who said it.If you pay money for a magic the gathering card, consider that money gone, stop justifying your spending habits as investments. You're paying a premium because the card is strong and/or rare and you want to play the strong and/or rare card to wind and/or flex.Caveat fucking emptor.
>>94053778reddit post.
>>94053760also yes, I think it was a good ban, I didn't own the card anyway (because I don't buy cards over £5), so I'm going to be dismissive about the actions of others because their actions were stupid by my viewpoint.you are also correct that sol ring should have ben banned
>>94053715>At least Wizards put out a call for community input on how it should work.ngmi
>last game of the night goes on for over two hours
>>94053744>i thought everyone else would think the same thing i thoughtliteral autism
>>94053788where's this from? I would like to read more
>>94053806>i thought everyone else would rigidly adhere to rulesliteral autismJust like you could always play with banned cards, or ban cards at your own tables, no one can compel you to play with tiers. Considering the general response to Wizards taking over is that it's a bad thing, I'm genuinely not sure why you think anyone would adopt the new rules in the first place.I think you just want to jerk off in your own misery.
>The bans were bad>Wizard taking control over committee is goodCan y'all stop seething? Despite all critics Wizards knows what they are doing, there are reason why this game is alive for more than 30 years
>>94053789>Last time you weren't there, all games were grindy and took agesGod forbid you have a way do deal with boardwipes and a way to actually win despite interaction
>>94053843Their design fuckups have become quite frequent in recent years, but at least their bans aren't that bad yet. So here's hope they at least do a decent job there.
>>94053854The best result is that they very quickly give up on tiers, have a banlist for casual, a ban list for cEDH, both of which include unbanning cards that got powercrept years ago, and only ban 1 or 2 new cards every couple years.
>>94053843Nice baitSigned: Modern, Standard and Pioneer.
>>94053687reported to wpn program
>>94053687propably not, but people will point and laugh when I lose with my tier 4 deck to a tier 1 deck and I lose all rights to feel good if I win because I was pubstomping with an officially higher level deck
>>94053914I forgot the police are personal enforcers of WPN store owners. I should have learned my lesson when I trespassed by playing Mana Crypt
>bans were good and justified>I was genuinely shocked to see the RC do something with the format (I was loudly saying for months that Nadu was going to be the litmus test for if they'd do anything post Sheldeath)>justification for not hitting sol ring was bullshit>they should have also got thoracle>the bitching and complaining should not have come as a surprise to anyone, even if they were wrong>"investors" deserved it>the RC folding like wet paper is embarrassing>in a culture where everyone has receipts on everyone else, the lack of a shred of evidence for these death threats is at least suspicious>WOTC taking over the format is going to be a net loss>anyone can see that their work to make the format rotating via insane power creep is not going to get better now that chose what is banned>we're going to see "tier 2" precons printed with absurd pushed cards that will only get sent to higher tiers when the decks go out of print and they move onto the next over pushed bullshit Thank you for reading my blog
>>94053843Commander became popular in the last 5-10 years significantly in part due to WOTC's mismanagement of all the other formats.Not totally, before you start quibbling.
>>94053922It is literally no different to power levels
>>94053926WotC shills will report a sanctioned lgs for not following tier lists and then WotC will unsanction the lgs until they become compliant. every store that wants to sell product will follow tier lists as soon as they're published.
>>94053868>have a banlist for casual, a ban list for cEDHThat's the same thing, just with two tiers instead of four.
>>94053927>>bans were good and justifiedNah they were stupid. If they only banned Nadu and Dockside no one would care.Mana Crypt is a 20 year old card, it was fine. JewLo was situational and not played at most tables.Even all of that aside, going after fast mana and protecting Sol Ring for being "iconic" is just proof that powerful cards are acceptable so long as the format is used to them, and that the bans were nothing to do with the health of the game but rather trying to curate the format.>>I was genuinely shocked to see the RC do something with the format (I was loudly saying for months that Nadu was going to be the litmus test for if they'd do anything post Sheldeath)After 3 years, so was everyone.>>justification for not hitting sol ring was bullshitAgree, but see above, it undermines the justification of other bans.>>they should have also got thoracleSure.>>the bitching and complaining should not have come as a surprise to anyone, even if they were wrongEvery time an internet personality makes a controversial decision they act surprised that people online say mean things. People saying those things should be ignored, and so should anyone making a big deal about the fact those things were said.>>"investors" deserved itYeah nah. Those "investors" are also your fucking LGS that depend on premium cardboard having value. I know my LGS buys at 75% value, and their JewLos sold at 50% asking price. That's an unpleasant hit.1/2I like your blog post, anon. Imma reply to all of it.
>>94053948other than now it's official
>>94053948and that armageddon was not a 10
>>94053725>>94053729>>94053736>>94053747That's not crypt, which was legal and fine for the life of edh until people who never used it got their panties in a twist, when it's like 93% the same as their favorite card ever and eternal t0 sol ring.
>>94053927>>bans were good and justifiedyes>>justification for not hitting sol ring was bullshitIt was but it still should not be touched.>>they should have also got thoracleThoracle isn't a problem in 99% of games.>>"investors" deserved itThey got the last laugh.>>the RC folding like wet paper is embarrassingYes>>in a culture where everyone has receipts on everyone else, the lack of a shred of evidence for these death threats is at least suspiciousNot really, if you have an IQ above room remp.>>WOTC taking over the format is going to be a net lossIt will kill the format or change it to the point it is not the same game anymore.>>we're going to see "tier 2" precons printed with absurd pushed cards that will only get sent to higher tiers when the decks go out of print and they move onto the next over pushed bullshit100%
>>94053927>>94053971>>the RC folding like wet paper is embarrassingYup.>>in a culture where everyone has receipts on everyone else, the lack of a shred of evidence for these death threats is at least suspiciousYup.Even if the fucking death threats were real (and I don't believe they are) they're certainly not credible.How the fuck words said online interfere in anyway with the "job" of the RC, I don't know. They did fucking nothing for 3 years, they could go back to doing fucking nothing.I think it's far more likely that when Wizard makes expensive bans it goes through a bunch of committee approval to make sure they've sold their stock, have replacements lined up in future, PR teams ready to manage the public etc. This wave of bans was too big, didn't do it the Wizards way, and so they decided they were never going to let it happen again.>>WOTC taking over the format is going to be a net loss>>anyone can see that their work to make the format rotating via insane power creep is not going to get better now that chose what is bannedProbably, they're not known for their respect for the consumer, but it has to be said at best the RC did nothing for 3 years and then hit bans that were overdue, and at worst they needlessly interfered with the format and completely mishandled bans they knew were going to be explosive.>>we're going to see "tier 2" precons printed with absurd pushed cards that will only get sent to higher tiers when the decks go out of print and they move onto the next over pushed bullshitPersonally I think that they're going to drop the tier system. I also don't see how this makes any difference to what is printed, they've always been in control of that.2/2
>>94053971t. Investor fag. Your local shop isn't hoarding hundreds of lotuses. Most probably lost less money than they fucking would over a rhystic reprint. Most LGS' also don't put their entire fucking hat on MTG, the like third most popular card game after yugioh and pokemon. The only people genuinely hurt were retards like you who pretend to be the fucking wolf of wallstreet, yet don't understand any fucking rules about investment. Probably because you're too narcissistic and lazy to think you need rules.
>>94053950They literally cannot stop you and your friends from playing how you want to play.>>94053969Yes.There needs to be a split. Casual players cry about powerful cards, powergamers cry about casuals banning their cards. Just fucking separate them.>>94053973Literally no more official than any other rule set in existence. I'm sure one day there will be officially sanctioned Commander tournaments with the tier system, but its a casual game, just don't fucking play tournaments
NTA, but I do think so as well. Why would players buy expensive Tier 2,3, and 4 card when they can play with Tier 1 cheaper ones?
>>94053990You cry so fucking hard about investors. Everyone is affected by the price of premium cardboard.You have this crab in the bucket mentality that those who can afford to take risks that you can't deserve to be punished. It's honestly quite repulsive.
>>94054001this but cEDH a week ago
>>94054001I am a retard. I meant to reply to this >>94053986>Personally I think that they're going to drop the tier system
>>94053837>i thought everyone else would rigidly adhere to rules>literal autismNot what I said at all. You don't want to play with brackets, that's fine. Enjoy your Emrakul games. You want a banlist? Pick a bracket. Don't want to pick a bracket, also fine. Enjoy your tier 4 games.Nice "no u" btw
>>94053990>t. retardI talked to an lgs owner who lost about 10k of stock. Not just crypts and lotuses of all flavours, but sealed product too like collector boosters and commander masters boosters that were a cash cow and instantly unsellable overnight. All their vaults and monoliths were scalped the second the ban dropped; we're talking like 30 copies within an hour of the announcement. These were nice passionate people with a real business and three kids, not some online douche with a portfolio of cardboard. They arent over invested retards, and they didnt deserve this kind of bullshit.
>>94053998they can and they will stop you, if you want to play at an lgs and not in a basement
>>94054009You're the quintessential nogamesThe ban list was always fucking optional you retard. Everyone flags when they have unpopular cards in a deck, and if anyone at the table objects you just remove it or play a different deck. That's how it's always worked, that's how it's always going to work.
>>94054001>he thinks t1 will be cheapOh I'm laughing. No anon, you're looking at 1k plus for a meta viable deck, but instead of having good valuable shit like mox diamond, it's going to be random bullshit that plays awfully and can be power crept on a whim.
>>94053998sure, for the people that have a tight group that have already been playing together for years, this means nothing. for the vast majority of players that regularly attend their lgs' commander night to find a game however, the tier lists will become the new normal.
>>94054014>They arent over invested retards, and they didnt deserve this kind of bullshit.That's literally what they are, and what they deserve.>These were nice passionate people with a real businessSure doesn't sound like it.
reminder that if this change ends up ruining commander/magic, the blame falls entirely on the RCthey showed no restraint or humility in wielding the absurd amounts of authority they lucked into.they should have realized the responsibility they had and used it with the mindset of "how to we upset the least amount of people while doing our job". instead they really thought "because we were right place/right time we are entitled to force our arbitrary and controversial view of this game onto literally 10s of millions of people whether they like it or not"
>>94054014Poorfags just want something to seethe at. They're miserable people and they want others to be miserable. Those that have more than them will always be the enemy so any misfortune they receive is deserved.
>>94054024>the blame falls entirely on the RCNah. I'll be blaming cEDH and primarily investors
>>94054018Ok, enjoy your Emrakul games.
>>94053998casual players don't complain about powerful cards, they complain about players showing up with competitive level decks pretending they're casual so they can pubstomp for an easy win
>>94054014>but sealed product too like collector boosters and commander masters boostersshould have sold it before instead of hoarding
>>94054021>sure, for the people that have a tight group that have already been playing together for years, this means nothingYeah nah.My LGS doesn't have a stable pod. Theres about 13-14 EDH players. You never know who's going to show up, you never know when they're going to play draft instead. I don't even know some of their names.We have never needed a ban list, we're just open about powerful decks and powerful cards and mindful about the fun of others.
>>94054025The exact basis of the bans in the first place. This guy gets it. Like look at this post:>>94054023$200+ slow moving but secure and desired cards got nuked over night. Entire premium sealed sets that were extremely popular suddenly arent with zero warning. All the cards that mooned were instantly scalped. And it's somehow the fault of the business and they're just retards who should have known better.
>>94054023Every LGS I've been into in the last 4 years that's still doing well has massively diversified their offerings, their stock, and what events they host. There's massively less shelf space being dedicated to MTG, there's less singles for sale.Weekly events board have gone from:>modern>commander>draft>commander>DND>standard>commanderto:>DND>one piece>other RPG's>standard/modern>final fantasy>FAB>commander
After the thread last night I'm having second thoughts about including white here. Initially i wanted to include zurgo helmsmasher and a few other tarkir orc cards but now I'm not so sure. Should I change that white pip on mork to black? I'm back to having a hard time making 40k orks fit into white. Again sorry for shitting up the thread with AI sloppa but I hate reddit and there is no /ccg/.
>>94054036if your lgs is WPN and hold sanctioned commander events they will use tier lists or lose their status. one of those randoms will make sure of it.
>>94054014They'll still be able to sell the stuff that supposedly became "unsellable". And they sold some of their card stock at the price they wanted. It was just under their worth at the time. But it's not like they lost money there.
>>94054046Change it to black, yeah. If you're splitting them down green/red then any third color should be shared.You should get slop that actually looks like WH orcs.
>>94054035Sure, in hindsight. Maybe even if the rc said something like "hey we're looking into crypt and lotus dont be surprised if there are changes to the banlist." Instead they said nothing for years, put out a warning aboit nadu and dockside, then dropped a nuclear bomb without precident and acted shocked people were mad. Worst part? The rc used budgetfag casuals as a meat sheild who went way too far with it and subsequently killed edh and all casual play.
>>94054057Who the fuck is going to buy lci collector boosters now that you cant pull a $1000ish crypt? I wouldnt have even bought them in the first place, collector boosters are a giant scam, but especially now
>>94054036yeah but in my opinion armageddon is not the most powerful card among thoracle combo. people now have a list to point at and call me out
>>94054066they hoarded it because they got greedy. a normal business would have sold it as long as it made a profit
>>94054086I don't fucking know, but at least it isn't food that expired. Their value might've went down, but you can still sell them, even if it's at a loss.
>>94053780yes that was a post on reddit made by Sheldon, you're very smart anon
>>94053198Unesh Sphinxes then run Dream Halls + Psychic Spiral to win.
>>94054098Unironically sounds like a cope. I checked. In the special fancy cards crypt is the only one worth more than $50 and there are five fucking versions of it.>>94054095No anon. A normal business would do exactly what they did, stock up on hot selling packs to make up for the inevitable god awful standard sets wotc forces you to buy. It's not like they were rubbing their hands speculating on them like rudy, they would have gladly sold you a box at any given time.
I think I am just going to play unmodified precons from now on. I've always hated the deckbuilding aspect of Commander, and now it is suddenly way more cancerous than before.
>>94054064Yeah I couldn't get the ai to spit out proper orks and I'm not a "prompt engineer", and the only official art of gork and mork literally don't fit the frame or thematically I think. I may try again in the future for better art
If a WPN is your local LGS that's your own fault
>>94054152Literally nothing has changed.
>>94054152>i've always hated the best part of the game
>>94054135>they would have gladly sold you a box at any given timeat tcgplayer's lowest price?
>>94053203>My future self told me in a rare moment of lucidityOh this happens to you too? Mine told me to buy Wendys stock at the beginning of covid. Idk why wendys, I could have made the same cash on literally any other ticker but the gains were pretty tight ngl
>>94054174How would I know? Depends on the price of a case relative to the price of a box versus the wholesaler price for multiple pallets some random warehouse gets on tcgplayer. But I dont really know how that works, and if we're at this point in the argument the initial premise, that the bans hurt stores the most for doing regular business, has been proven.
>>94054043Funny that you direct it to my post when I think EDH players in general are retarded and the (poorfag) casuals seething the hardest over the bans and the responses to the bans are the most pathetic.>And it's somehow the fault of the business and they're just retards who should have known better.They are. They chose to invest in MtG even though it's been so horribly fucking mismanaged. Of course something like this could happen at any time, the most popular format by far, the thing driving all your sales, was literally a theoretically casual format with no official oversight. The RC could have done this at any time, and had no reason not to, because they have no professional relationship with your store. Who would buy into that? If you're going to buy packs of cards then you want their value to be based on the actions of someone that actually has an incentive to continue to sell to you. Choosing to continue to invest heavily in MtG as your means of business falls on nobody but yourself. You bought into a bubble, it popped. Don't cry about it.>>94054045Precisely. Commander was never a stable format and LGS that bought into it heavily were mismanaged.
>>94053687It will, at very least, be cited when someone is mad with the outcome of a gameSo pretty often
I can't fucking cope MLD bros. I'm gonna lose to low tier deck and my "tier 4" decks can't compete but I also have no right to complain anymore
>>94054095>hoarded itOr.... people didn't buy them? Lgs have no interest in hoarding stock you fucking retard it makes no benefit to them.
>>94054204if your lgs wasnt selling the sealed products by the lowest price on tcgplayer when they released, they deserved this outcome
>>94054241>if your lgs wasn't selling at a loss they deserves this!What an objectively evil position to hold lmao
This commander idea came to me in a dream. Would it be fun to build and play?Madman McGee - BBFlashMadman McGee cannot block.When Madman McGee enters the battlefield choose a creature at random and destroy that creature. If that creature was destroyed and you controlled it, draw a card.BB: Return Madman McGee to your hand.1/1
>>94054241Anon my post literally just explained why that's fucked.
>>94054152>nothing changes>nothing at all>not a single atom in the universe rolled over>anon>EVERYTHING CHANGED WHY HAS THIS HAPPENEDI wonder what sort of illness this is. Your brain might be fascinating to study
>>94054165I never understand why you guys think WPN stores have to do anything special. My LGS is WPN. They don't ban proxies and they aren't going to do assigned bracket shit.
>>94054271>nothing changedSolid bait. Any reason you're so adamant to defend this change? Objectively, a lot has changed and discussion on it can be found in this thread. If you'd like, we can start on how every tier will have its own top tier deck that is cancerous and busted, but has to be allowed because it fits in the tier. Please tell us how this does not change deck building.
>>94054285I suggest looking into what a doomsayer is.
>>94054298I don't understand.
>>94054296He's right though. Nothing has changed. The game is the same as it ever was, and Wizards is taking feedback on a completely unenforceable tier system that no one is going to adhere to.
>>94054305C'mon dude.. hearthstone even has a card to make fun of them.>REEEEEE>game gonna die>this ruins everything>*random lies to bait the weak minded*>more reeee95% of this thread is doomsayers. They all make up weird ass fantasies and lies. It's basically an /x/ thread
>>94054314>>94054271>nothing has changedI mean, just flat out and objectively false lol. The game has very clearly changed. It is under new management and they are implementing new rules. There's no way you can say with a straight face that nothing has changed>unenforceableAlso objectively false. The reason rule 0 was so memed on before was precisely because IT was unenforceable and there was no standard, the age old "what is a 7" question. But we don't have that excuse anymore, we have a ruling from on high precisely what a 1/2/3/4 is. It will no longer be >well I don't feel this card is a 7 so wcyd!It will be>that card us a 3 according to wotc and this is a 1/2 podWhich allows them to point to who and how the rules were broken and the lgs owner can dish out a more direct ruling.In short: you're both myopic retards who likely have convinced themselves being ignorant is smart.
>>94054296Why would I have discussions about tiers? Do I look like I give a fuck? Or anyone for that matter?I'm fighting my mates cedh decks with my shitty precons if I feel like it. Who cares
>>94054331This card isn't making fun of anyone anon, it's taken directly from WoW. It is in no way a reference to whatever your retarded mind thinks it is lol
>>94054350Your friends will care because you make for boring games lol
>>94054352Whatever you say, retard bro.
>>94054356Sure, they will suddenly turn into braindead hiveminded individuals over night like you are one. Solid story
>>94054345Do you understand the difference between past and future? Nothing has changed means until now change has not happened yet. It might happen in the future, but so far that just hasn't happened yet. You can still play the same decks with the same people.
>>94054350What kind of weird cope is this?
>>94054359Being ignorant on the internet isn't cool anon https://wowpedia.fandom.com/wiki/Doomsayer_(Legion) (they were right by the way)>>94054364You're too dumb for words anon. You are forcing your friends to either sandbag or just have boring one sided games because you're a narcissistic faggot lol it has literally nothing to do with a single word in your post, it's sad I had to spell it out for you
>>94054375>get totally and mentally dominated>aha.... what I meant was the changes haven't even gone into effect yet aha....Embarrassing anon
>>94054388I'm not even either of those anons, I'm just pointing out that you can't read. Or don't want to read apparently.
>>94054388That wasn't even me you replied to you shithead
>>94054391>>94054392>get totally dominated>your position is shown to be objectively false>cry that it wasn't even meIt just keeps getting worse and let's not forget CHANGE HAS HAPPENED. The RC no longer controls commander. WOTC does. Even in your dogshit "explanation" you are still objectively incorrect ^.^ really terrible attempt at saving face lol
>>94053203Duh, the highest tier is the banlist that they can sneak all the reserved list cards that have no reprint equity to Hasbro. The first thing they stated was a desire to yeet Grim Monolith to tier 4. Lots of things will initially be tier 4 but will be moved to tier 3 where people actually play. WotC doesn't want tier 4 to appear as a banlist just yet. Tier 3 will be the actually playable tier that they target with powerful shit like the upcoming infinity gauntlet. Tier 2 will be battlecruiser EDH with like 100 banned cards.Tier 1 will be weenie hut Jr. Precons and Foundations cards only.
>I totally DOMINATED you
>>94054400Yes or no.Does wotc now control commander?Yes or no.Before this week did the RC have control of it?Yes or no.Does that count as change?
>>94054406Nobody controls commander outside of official tournaments. Nobody can. That's like the gov trying to control the internet.Watch me and the guys forbid stax at our tables and play silver border like before.Guess we control commander now
>>94054024The RC's job was literally "don't be WotC", and they fucked it up.It's not like WotC couldn't have taken the reigns earlier. They could have started promoting Official Commander or some shit and started to issue their own rulings. They didn't, because there was the obvious opposition in the form of entrenched, existing RC and it would have generated unnecessary turmoil and generally been an uphill battle.With RC gone, the WotC is free to sweep in and finally go full corporate stranglehold on the format like they always wanted. To prevent this, all RC needed to do is pass the authority to some other independent group if they are so tired of playing arbiter. But no, they folded like wet cardboard and gave WotC the keys to the castle on a golden platter.
>>94054412>t. Always played by the banlistPost a deck you own that has banned cards in it right now or this post is a larp and you followed the rc. Also again wrong, in the statement wotc themselves said they are taking control from the RC. Ignorance is not intelligence
>>94054418But hey, I have laughed a lot the past 30mins so thanks for that. My cheeks hurt from smiling
>>94054430>laughing when you're wrongYou should really get that checked out. It's a very common defense mechanism
Just play Tier 1 decks wih cheap cards. Forget other tiers exist>they will print expensive staplesproxy>muh wpn lgsproxies from chang
>>94054417I don't think the RC really had a choice. once WotC decided it was time to take over the format the matter was settled.what the RC is to be blamed for is acting like retards and giving WotC the pretext to take control of the format. RC decided to not give a fuck and do the most controversial ban in the history of magic, and pissed off half the playerbase in the process.under any other circumstances people would be VERY upset about WotC taking over commander, but since a lot of people have lost all trust in the RC this shit is getting tolerated.
>>94054458>giving WotC the pretext to take control of the formatI still think it was planned
any knowledge pool enjoyers this morning?
>>94053760>W-what if?What if the world was made of chocolate pudding? >"I think it was a good ban"Yes.>"I didn't own the card anyway"Yes.Turns out if I don't have faith in a card's secondary market, then I'm probably not going to buy it. That's a brilliant deduction, I'm amazed you noticed
>>94054470I have it in Tasha, but I have yet to fully enjoy it. Also had it in Prosper. Was a pain with painful quandary when an opponent had it out.
damn I might actually have to build a green deck that only ramps since nobody can stop me sub tier 4 where everyone wants to play in order to avoid thoracle
>>94054466Biggest sign it was planned is the RC keeping the advisors in the dark about their biggest decision ever which was guaranteed to leave bagholders livid.
>>94054470Have it in Blim. Didn't get to cast it, but I did cast its smaller brother
>>94054514Yes. That and everything happened too fast to be a coincidence.This is why I don't put the blame on anyone. It was an unilateral move by WotC and the RC together.Nothing could be done about it and they will push it as much as they can. Will people start playing as WotC want? Only time will tell
>Be playing at LCS>See bans>No ones decks even need to be changed>Just keep playing>See new bracket system>Everyone just ignores the suggestion and keeps playing like we wereBeing chronically online must be brutal for you guys, so many whining posts.
>>94054048>sanctioned commander eventslmao could you imagine actually modifying your deck to play in some soulless WotC approved event?
>>94054451>>they will print expensive staples>proxyand then he lost to thoracle combo in tier 4
Should I build this? I imagine there's lots of cool combos, but I wonder if other creatures won't just do it better. they also have an incredibly low edhrec rank which is a plus
Is commander still just waacfaggotry masquerading as kitchen table magic?
>>94054539Except this literally never happened anon. You're making it up. The tiers haven't been. Implemented and you can't see the future. Weird post!
Alright guys my deck is technically a T4 but its only really like a T4 4, gameplay wise its more like a T2 7, so its fine to play it in T2 with you right?
>>94054562Yes. The casuals are desperate for a win but they refuse to admit it, they just stack their decks with FIRE design and cry about those who build better decks and seem to win without caring about winning.
>>94054516I love this card. It's always a delight to see it hit the field. Last game I had someone use a Perch Protection from someone else to cause shenanigans. Big fan.
>>94054575I will go back to Utopia format
>>94053213Literally no evidence exists for death threats. No screencaps, no police reports, nothing. WotC bans you from the discord if you ask for proof, which is all you need to know.
>>94054539I don't wanna play with thoracleI don't wanna play with thoraclejust let me play armageddon with others
>>94054587>No police reports>if he saw a Screencap doubtless he would either disregard it or call it fakeNot that it even matters lol you're retarded anon, genuinely. I sent then death threats by the way!
>>94054558You trying to shove 20 tutors and revives into that deck? Relying on a single card in 99 is a little absurd
>>94054575this will get even worse with the brackets since all the wrong cards will be high tier and new cards are tier 1 by default from new decksand then they have an official list to point at and refute any arguments against how sorcery personal tutor to top deck for board wipe is way better than their instant speed swords to plowshares
>>94054613The charisma combo is what piqued my interest, I wouldn't build a whole deck around it. I'm trying to think of other interesting combos with their ability.
>>94054617Mhm the fact that this is going to be official is the real nail in the coffin here. There can no longer be a subjective disagreement on power levels which will allow people to just shutup and move on and play. Which is actually a huge deal. It is far easier to enforce a social rule than it is to ignore an official ruling.
>>94054624This is the only thing I can think of.
>>94054002>that those who can afford to take risks that you can't deserve to be punished.If you take a risk and it cripples you, that means it wasn't an affordable risk.
>>94054608Pic or didn't happen
>>94054451>he things t1 one will be cheapWhy on god's green earth would that ever be true?
>>94054608Yes. To olivia for disagreeing about the ban, which are the only provable death threats.
>>94054470T4 card
>all this fucking cope that commander will be finein 2 years this general will be so fucking dead that it will have to merge with /mtg/ just to not get bumped off the catalogue
>>94054679i hope not, its a card that made my pod's resident cedh player ragequit our group forever
>>94054687>epsiode 3748383 of edhg larper not knowing what cedh is
>>94054687it's at least t3. I already got hit with armageddon and propably all the mld in t4 and will forever be cast into the thoracle shadow realm
>>94054687>he doesnt know lavinia knowledgepool has been an antimeta (read: bad) cedh for yearsLol. Lmao even.
>>94054712didn't stop armageddon
>Okay, so you have your commander, what are your other 99 cards?>Okay, so you have your commander and your sol ring, what are your other 98 cards?>Okay so you have your commander, your sol ring, and your mana crypt, what are your other 97 cards?>Okay, so you have your commander, your sol ring, your mana crypt, and your jeweled lotus, what are your other 96 cards?>Okay, so you have your commander, your sol ring, your mana crypt, your jeweled lotus, and your mana vault, what are your other 95 cards?>Okay, so you have...
armageddon is just as bad as thoraclearmageddonthoraclearmageddonthoracleAHAHHAHHAHHAHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRH HELP MEEEEE
>>94054698not complaining about cedh anon, they were a self-proclaimed cedh player that came from yugioh
I don't really have an issue with an official tier list for decks in theory, since it's basically the same concept as power levels except the tiers are actually defined so everybody can't just say their deck is "about 7 :^)" regardless of how good it actually is. But they way they seem to be grouping the tiers is dumb, since an optimized but still clearly casual (non-cEDH) deck and a cEDH turn 2 infine combo hell deck would both be tier 4. Which basically makes tier 4 the new "about 7", as that's going to be where just about every deck that isn't an unmodified precon will eventually end up as you keep upgrading it.They should either make an additional tier for the cEDH staples like Thoracle and Demonic Consultation, or drop tutors down at least a tier. Tutors themselves just add consistency, which is also the case with fetchlands which are apparently tier 1, and there's a huge difference between using tutors to search for an answer to an opponent's board state or the last piece of a multi-card combo and using them to ensure you get the Thoracle Consultation combo off by turn 2. They're only really broken if you use them to tutor in broken cards, which can be solved by banning or restricting the broken cards themselves. Though that being said, I don't think this would actually be much of a problem since people usually differentiate between normal commander and cEDH, so people who want to play optimized casual decks just say their deck is non-cEDH tier 4 or whatever.
>>94054748>optimized but casual OxymoronTake out the tutors fag
>>94054719Anon, do you know how knowledge pool works? What about armageddon? That's a silly statement, you obviously dont know how one of those work.
>>94054712I don't even combo it with other stuff that slow the game, i just think its a funny card on its own or mixed with other funny cards like hivemind or fractured identity
Tier 1 operator deck coming through HOOORAH
>insane schizos online complaining at me about mono red while they play 5 color, 4 color, 3 enemy colors, artifact decks, with made-for-commander cards>IF YOU COULDNT PLAY WITHOUT YOUR 1 CARD YOU SHOULDNT BE PLAYING ITIt's all so tiresome.
Hello everyone it is me, Mr. Wizard of the Coast. To formally apologize for the inside job destruction of our beloved format Id like to offer you a sneak preview of what to expect for the future of Commander™.Post your favorite Commander™ and I will tell you what Tier we have placed it in. Hopefully this will balance the playing field and serve to better inform your purchasing decisions!
>>94054767red has gotten so many good made for commander cards since 2019 its kinda insane
>Be me>Just use mausoleum secrets as mostly an extra sylvan scrying aside from the chance where it might tutor up a higher cmc card>Now deck is a 3 or 4 because a tutor>Rest of deck is just skeleton and plant.
>>94054748Thats a nice post and a lot of complaints about thoracle, but you realize there are now 4 tiers of cedh and 0 tiers of casual, right?
>>94054748>Tutors themselves just add consistency, which is also the case with fetchlands which are apparently tier 1No, you dork.The reason searching for basic lands isn't a problem is because even in singleton, you're expected to have multiple copies of lands to begin with. Tutors don't just """add consistency""", they are effectively duplicates of your win victory in a format designed to ensure you have only one copy.There is a massive gap between "I search for basic land" and "I search for win con"It's the same reason tutors get banned or restricted even in vintage and legacy formats but fetches don't.Quit running fuckin' tutors.
>>94054771I don't even win games its just a time to virtue signal to your friends about how You Agree/You Disagree about the bans. "Fuck having FUN" I guess, "if these bans made you upset you are an investor! You probably buy cards get fucked nerd" FUCK YOU NORMIES FUCK YOU
>>94054748RIGHT?!like fuck me for running jank with stax because I find it enjoyable I guess
>>94054770Hello Mr. Wizard of the Coast. My Favorite Commander™ is Rocco, Street Chef™. My group hates him, because he is powerful enough to swing for lethal on t6-7 with very high consistency and without using cards™ over $10.
>>94054758Considering how big difference there is between cEDH and regular commander there is definitely a space where people want to play decks that are well-built but still actually have you play the actual game instead of just turning every game into rocket-tag with infinite combos where the first player who manages to make infinite mana and vomit their entire deck on the board wins.
>>94054790>duplicates of your win victoryWincon. Mad newfag who doesnt understand tutors, it's a wincon or a key card.
>>94054770Sure, Lord Of The Nazgûl.Speaking of, any kind casuals care to provide feedback on this deck? I'm not looking to pubstomp, but I'm not looking to lay down and die on on turn 5. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/NQXqqdks4E60zq3uXhxa8gY'know, the tier 3 sorta deck where I can win a booster pack or a play-mat at the Friday night fight.
Anyone know of a card that tutors me chandras ignition? Outside of fervent mastery.I only have green, white and red.
>>94054748It's going to fall flat because they've already batched things in a retarded fashion, where it's more about perception than actual power level. Imagine getting your deck shunted to tier 3 because you wanted to play Drannith so that you had counterplay to an opponent casting a bunch of free spells.Tutors are correct to place in high tiers though. They add consistency. Consistency is power, especially in a singleton format.Same thing goes for fetches and better lands as well though. Those are things that they could actually shuffle to higher tiers and meaningfully impact the power level of decks.Depending on how bad the tiering placements get, the system will be worse than useless
>>94054767Things that never happened for 1000
>>94054805>rocket tag with infinitesAnd tutors enable thisTake out the tutors and play in t3
>>94054806Anon, this isn't reddit.No one is going to upvote your for posts like this.
i dont see my lgs caring about tiers and just sticking to how the format's handled power levels since always
>>94054770Hi, MaRo! I have a Ghen deck that runs Overwhelming Splendor, Blood Moon and the likes to slow down my opponents. no wincons tho, the deck only tries to beat face with Archon of Sun's Grace or Doomwake Giant. Thank you!
>>94054786>black card>land cardOh no it's retarded.
>>94054826which tutors anon? Not all tutors are 4s ya know.
What tier is it?
>>94054790Fetches don't let you just search for basics, but any land with the relevant type. I usually use them to search for shocklands, or if I don't need the mana that turn, a triome. That adds a ton of consistency since I can generally search for whatever color of mana I need, since if you run all available shocklands any fetch should be able to find any one color of mana.
>>94054790Most tutors are legal in vintage and legacy anon :D
>>94054835Because everyone knows it isn't going to work. Even a lot of casual players will likely end up with at least one accidental tier 3 or 4 card they wanna play in their deck and bam now it's that tier. No point in getting worked up over it since its just gonna fall on its face.
>>94054829>calling things reddit>replying to everyone who disagrees without really saying anything of substance>when you are objectively wrong about tutors>not only that, but you dont even know common game termsYou realize this is the shit that killed edh in the first place, right? Well, I guess you dont, but you should show some awareness.
>>94053620if you complain a deck is too strong when it's in your tier you will be called a little bitch, the store owner will say>his deck is fine, don't be a childand you'll have to deal with it. Do you actually think normal people crack their deck open every time bitches at stores cry about it? Nobody is taking their deck apart for you and no one ever has because it's a rude and unironic inappropriate request to ask for
>>94054860>bam now it's that tierNo it's not! You'll be judged by the average tier of your cards not by the highest. Wotc even said that in their retarded "tomb themed deck" example and ancient tomb.
>>94054861Anon redditors LOVE semantics. He said win victory, you know he means wincon, he even says win con elsewhere in the post. You are objectively acting like a redditor for getting hung up on minor semantics. Really annoying I had to interject to clear that up for you two
>>94054860In practice I except tier 3 to be the standard tier of deck for anyone not playing with unaltered precons, since that's where most strong but not cEDH tier cards likely end up. Or since pretty much everyone who can runs low-manacost tutors, people will just run tier 4 decks but specify they don't want to go full cEDH.
>>94054851>Fetches don't let you just search for basics, but any land with the relevant type.You're not wrong, but you're also missing the point. You're not going to use your only "Vampiric Tutor" on a shockland.>>94054855>Most The fact that any of them are banned or restricted is a pretty good indication of what their power level and purpose is and why they should be balanced in a particular fashion.No. Vampiric Tutor does not belong at the lowest level of a singleton format.
>>94054861>>>replying to everyone who disagrees without really saying anything of substanceWhat substance was in your semantics post?Quit looking for upvotes.
maybe this is all a ploy by wizards to kill edh so that only Brawl remains
>>94054874Never been to reddit. Didnt read most of the post. Doesnt change the fact that tutors make good magic, strong enablers make fun games, and strong payoffs always dominate, regardless of the other two variables. Transmute is one of the finest mechanics ever created.
>>94054863>complain about thoracle>what are you playing then anon>armageddon>I see no problem here
>>94054912th8s is exactly what will happen and in tier 1 retards will build decks, lose to actual straight up precons and then bitch that xyz precon should actually be in a higher tier
>>94054867Oh so you CAN just slap an Armageddon in tier 1 even though its a tier 4 card because it's just a game of averages? So as long as your playing a high enough volume of tier 1 creatures, artifacts, instants, and sorceries you can just spoof it? How in the fuck does that work? How is it weighted? What's the cutoff? Multicolor gets just get autoslotted into tier 2 at lowest via landbase dragging its average up? This is why nobody cares, its ridiculous.
now that wotc owns edh they can finally make magic arena 2 with multiplayer and add it inI can't wait to turn my mythic wild card into jeweled lotus
>>94054892It's probably something like this. If t3 turns out as you say, then most of my decks will probably be there as well. Maybe have like 1-2 decks for t2 and t4 as well. T1 is probably gonna be a joke.
>>94054911It's cool you think that. We have a tier for you.
>>94054900>he's never demonic tutored for a basic to make sure he has the mana needed to cast his wincons next turn
>>94054248Sounds like mono Red.
>>94054922Pretty much. If everyone is just using tiers as guidelines based on what they think is an acceptable tier 4 card within a tier 2 deck or whatever, then it's no different than just having a normal rule 0 discussion
>>94054922>>94054867they straight up said it was vibes and used specific examples like>thoracle isn't actually so bad by itself or even with other cards, with tainted pact or ad naus it's a tier 4 thothe gist is about the efficiency of your deckif you have spiritually, a very efficient deck you are not playing in the spirit of the lower tiers but the higher ones so you should not build a deck like that if you want to play low tiers is essentially what they said
>>94054932Tier 1 will be green decks only
>>94054863That's not how normal people interact. I bet 80% of posters here never even visited an lgs.
>>94054922Gavin straight up said the sole purpose of these tiers is to force players to have rule 0 discussions at their table and self select while another person on the same panel said he fundamentally disagreed and wanted codified changes that allowed players to plug in their deck online, get a tier and be done with itthey have NO IDEA what they want, what to do or how to do it
>>94054855Vampiric, the one specifically called out as a 4, is banned in legacy and restricted in vintageDemonic Tutor likewiseThey're on a completely different level than shit like worldly tutor
>>94054939thats the whole point. and it is different than the current rule 0 discussion since it gives players a framework to have a more precise conversation about power levelthe whole point of the system is "pretty much a rule 0 conversation just clearer and easier"
Tbh if sub-t4 ends up being the standard tier of play, I'm happy to remove tutors from my deck. The deck is already not built around combos (there's a grand total of 1 "remove target player" combo and it costs 12 mana to pull off, so I've only ever managed to do it twice) so I mostly just use them to search for answers for the current board state (i.e. tutor in Elesh Norn after an opponent makes 20 1/1 tokens). Losing them would make it harder to get a specific card that I need at a given time, but if opponents don't have tutors that would make their decks less consistent as well, and it would free up space for other cards.
>>94054950Normal people do not complain about cyclonic rift in real life yet based on this thread you'd think the card killed the mom of some anons.So occam's razor tells me you're an equally ignorant retard who's never been at an lgs and actually believes 30 year old who spend their hard earned cash to build their decks actually give a fuck what the one bad player thinks when they get smashed (most people have a skill level above gutter trash so most people never feel the need to complain about a children's card game in the first place)
>>94054911>Doesnt change the fact that tutors make good magicYeah that's why they're banned/restricted in every format but commander, where they're just widely panned
>>94054932T1 is gonna be a hellscape where all of the good hatebears and interaction are banned, so there's constantly new degenerate combos taking over the game because nobody has the tools to stop it or slow it down. They already stuck Thalia in tier 2, even though a 1 mana tax on noncreature spells is extremely easy to overcome for any deck that isn't trying to storm out with a bunch of cheap/free spells.The Timmy decks you'd want to encourage in tier 1 that swing with big dinosaurs shouldn't care about Thalia existing at all, so it's just banning a potential safety valve because it's perceived as potentially unfun.
if it is just a law of averages then it will become a solved format as people will figure out how to counter the weight of higher tier cards. Where even if a deck is technically a 2, its actually a 1.99 and is still by legal definition a 1. If rounding ever gets involved, then the safe number is 1.49 for tier weight.
you act like these changes wont do shit but when the entirety of the format's playerbase has to homebrew the rules of the format getting new players in is going to be hell>woops our group went down a guy for whatever reason>lets go to the lgs or fuckin wherever to get a 4th>4th guy sits down>what tier are you guys playing?>erm we dont do that gay shit because we are... le based>check his deck for what cards go against our own banlist (the equivalent of bracket deck checking anyways lol)or better yet going to an lgs where everyone just collectively ignores the official wotc rules so every table has to spend 15 minutes figuring out how to actually play the game
>>94054960in their own tier list one tutor was t4 and another was t3grim tutor and demonic tutor will not be in the same tier
>>94054934>weAnon, you arent involved in this decision. You would never be involved with this decision. Using lorien revealed to grab an jsland is perfectly fair and a play that makes magic better while also being a tutor. Stoneforge is a strong card, but the tutor aspect is the least offensive aspect of the card. Being able to grab a silver bullet on demand helps everyone deal with degenerate nonsense. No one has ever had a problem with transmute. Why? Because, like you ignored, tutors dont break the game, they make the game better. Payoffs break the game with and without tutors. But I'm wasting my time arguing with a samefagging mongoloid more interested in sending people to reddit than learning about the game he has a tenuous grasp of, but many opinions on none the less.
>>94054804Excellent choice, my friend! We have been aware of the Rocco problem for some time (internally referred to as 'The Rock', or 'The New Rock'). While we all love Rocco, we have elected to place him in T3 so he isnt as oppressive for new players to encounter.>>94054808Ahh, Lord of the the Rings, one of our most profita... err, our favorite IPs! I am happy to announce that all (yes, ALL) Universes Beyond™ Commanders™ will be placed in T1. We want to ensure the barrier to play for fans of other franchises is as low as possible, and this decision will ensure these cards are legal in all Tiers.>>94054837Ghen is an excellent example of another T1 Commander™! Although I cant divulge too much information, Ill say to be wary of including Blood Moon if you want to keep your deck in a low Tier! Part of our philosophy is that cards should encourage players to play rare and chase cards, such as non basic lands. We want players to love their collection, so you may see cards that discourage buyi... I mean collecting are placed in higher Tiers.
>>94054982>you act like these changes wont do shitbecause they won't and you're a retard if you think otherwise, you try to explain this shit and people's eyes will glaze over and they'll ignore it. People like their cool cards and they'll play them regardless of what other people say or think with very few exceptions like mass land destruction
>>94054955It's not really any more precise though, because the tiering placements are really arbitrary. We have less than a dozen examples of card tiers and nearly half of them are out of place. If I tell you my deck has a 3 in it, what does that actually tell you about my deck?
>>94054978>T1 is gonna be a hellscape where all of the good hatebears and interaction are bannedWhere does the sentiment that all good interaction is gonna be banned there come from? Swords to plowshare is already confirmed to be t1, so it stands to reason that most removal spells will be there as well. Some free spells might not, but that shouldn't make too much of a difference. I also think most boardwipes with some exceptions like rift, toxic deluge and farewell will be playable there. Also what makes you think that combos will dominate there instead of being hard to assemble since good combo engines like ghave will probably be tiered higher.
>>94054991Tldr
>>94054998>sit down for a game>you guys do brackets?>nah thats gay>nah >no>t2 strip mine a cabal coffers>erm, anon that card is gay >well its not against the rules >yeah but that card isnt fair>point me to where it says Im not allowed to play it>well even if the old banlist didnt have it banned wotc still considers it bracket 4 so everyone knows its too good for this table
>>94054998This. I've got a friend who, god bless his soul, barely knows how his own cards work and accidentally tries to cheat and walks things back all the time. Guy is retarded as fuck and probably not much different from who the average casual is. You're never getting the information through to him that he has a high enough volume of tier 3 cards in his deck to make it a tier 3 and not a tier 1 like he believes. It will not happen, the average player cannot be fucked to figure it out.
>>94055016Oh you can write giant wanktastic posts and reply to others, but the second someone disagrees and proves you wrong, you're illiterate. Neat, what a handy ability.
This tier system is doomed to fail, it solves nothing. If you are just playing with your friends, then you already have a fairly good idea of what cards are/aren't over the line. So this is really only for playing with randoms at cons or a new lgs. I guarantee you that as soon as the brackets are known, people will whip up the optimal decks for each of the lower tiers, thus ruining the entire point of tiers.
>>94055017>dude you're 34, aren't you act bit old to be complaining about strip mine?and then the conversation would end because the 3 other people who just want to play and don't actually care either way will be staring at you because they've all seen this shit 500 times and are immune
>>94055010yea, but the system right now is that everyone has a tier list already it is just in their head and slightly different from everyone else's. considering how informally this tier system is going to get treated, a centralized official tier list is better than none
>>94055041>he thinks it would get droppedhavent been to an lgs commander game lately? Enjoy getting rage/spite targeted for the next few games
>>94054992so I don't get placed on rocco tier just because of the 1-2 stax I run?
At least half of you guys should just migrate to AO3 with all the fanfics you're writing.
>>94053245Unironically better idea than tiers.Literally what's legal in each format + what's been made in commander sets and precons and everyone will selfselect to what they find fun
>>94055041What does age have to do with game balance exactly?
>>94055048Yeah, the system now is that everyone has cards they think are too good that they don't like playing against. What does being able to say my deck is a 3 add to that situation?
>>94055040No anon, you dont get it. People have been begging for tiers for years. Why do you think they were complaining about pubstompers? Obviously they wanted to have skilled low power games where they can show off their low power deck building prowess they always brag about on an even playing field. After all, who would spend a decade lying to themselves and constantly advocating for bans to balance the format, right? R-right?
>>94055051I only play at stores, people don't act like that and they don't care. People, you'll find in real life are actually very unconcerned with things outside of themselves and their own decks. So yes anon, it does get dropped because there's a low chance it'll even come up at all.At my lgs I'm the guy who runs all the board wipes. I am known in the store as the guy you'll never have a board against me because that's just the thing I do with my decks, wipe everything off.Do you know how many times people have refused to play with me or asked me to change cards or decks? 0 times.Because only people on the internet or literal children feel entitled enough to ask that of another person
>>94055070Low power magic is the only place there is skill, which is why limited is the only skillful formatCope paypig
>>94053331I think people didn't know there would be multiple miku lairs so the first one got bought out mostly by scalpers and stores which is why singles of it are cheap.But they saw it sell out quickly and people complained so they quietly increased supply for this round of them
>>94055070what I find fascinating when casuals cry wolf about pubstomping is nobody is lying about their deck being a 7casuals just don't understand that 8 9 and 10 are real tiers and will DESTROY that deck that's oh so unfair and totally cedh that they just lost to!Casuals cry about everything so to them everything is pubstomping unless they win all their games.It's pathetic
>>94054982What I expect to happen is the same as how it works now. I go to the LGS, sit down on a table with an empty spot, and either somebody asks what their decks' power levels are (except now they would ask for what tiers they are) or everyone just tells what kind of deck they're playing (i.e. Teysa Aristocrats, mono-red group slug, Nekusar wheels, etc.). If somebody has a deck clearly stronger than the rest, people will ask if he could swap to something more in line with rest of the pod, and if somebody only has low-powered decks the others might swap to something less strong (even if it'd still technically be tier 3 or whatever) to make things more fair.However, unless one tier becomes the de-facto standard people build for I wouldn't expect to see the tiers themselves have much impact since you wouldn't be able to expect 4 randos in the LGS to either all bring 4 decks with different tiers or coincidentally all bring a deck of the same tier. In practice you'll probably see a lot of pods where there's like two tier 2 decks, one tier 3, and one tier 1 precon. That's more or less how the average power levels of a random pod end up now, and it usually works fine, since the one guy with a stronger deck tends to be kept in check by the other 3 people, provided it isn't an all-out "I infinite combo off any turn you don't have counterspells ready, gg" deck (which would probably be tier 4, and also something most people understand would be a dick move to use outside a dedicated cedh pod).
>>94055064If you're this old playing the game for this long you should've picked up the skills to not be retarded anymore. You're like the people who cry pudge is op in dota. Just get good, it's called a skill floor, you gotta rise to it too.
>>94054953>2 are bannedCool argument
>>94053971>Nah they were stupidStopped reading there because you're dumb
>>94055028Anon, imma make a serious post for you because I love you. <31) You suck at sticking on topic2) You demand engagement when it's clearly unwanted3) You're easily incensed.In all, you're about as fun to talk to as you are to play with.
>>94055101I have skills and that's how I'm capable of understanding card power level, unlike youYou're coping so incredibly hard that a good player can't recognize badly designed cards and call them out for being badly designed
>>94055092Yup. Look at this guy:>>94055077He unironically thinks I was saying low power wasnt skilled. He thinks he is some super secret master of the power level oppressed by the wallets of unrighteous paypigs. Then t1 will come out with a unified banlist, the decks will be low powered, but they will be expensive, they will be incredibly unbalanced, and he will inevitably lose because he never learned to win.
>>94055118>I have skillsclearly not
>>94055117That sure sounds like a bunch of personal insults in an abhorrent post because you were wrong, but we all knew this is what would happen when you started down this doomed path.
>>94055012On one hand, given that StP, the best single target removal spell in the history of the game is in t1, it would be hard to imagine what spot removal warrants going higher.On the other hand, the leaked Brawl matchmaking data showed that putting interaction in your deck was one of the easiest ways to increase your deck matchmaking modifier.
>"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1">"My deck is a 1"
>>94055120yep and in a few months he'll be back here going>gggrrr these tiers are useless wotc are so dumb of course the paypigs are ruining tier 1I once had the pleasure of watching a table during precon night and thry brought precons from random years, one of the guys brought the mkm deck, the green white red commander that flips cloaked cards.That dude decimated the table every single game taking their assess up and down because he was straight up a better player and you know what the others at the table said?>that precon is really fucked up what were wizards thinking, try a different one insteadIt's genuinely never enough for bad players
>>94055132Yeah, but Brawl's weights are automatically evaluated, right? So it basically just confirms that running removal is good for you. Not that it's super strong. Something like druid of purification might be higher, but we'll see.
>>94055144I know you're not smart but it's been explained a bunch. Power levels has no standard, tiers do. You can lie about being a tier 1 but people will have an objective measure they can hold it up to to tell you you're wrong and yo can't just go "well everyone's 7 is different.."
>>94055150Brawl's weights are manually assigned and fucked up, part of the video I watched was showing that key parts of old standard/pioneer decks were still sitting there in the top tier, shit like history of benalia and lyra dawnbringer from the DOM mono white aggro deck.
>>94055113I'm sorry you can't count, I don't need to name every card banned in legacy for youMystic tutor is also bannedGoblin Recruiter is bannedImperial Seal is bannedDemonic Consultation(yes it is a tutor)is bannedStop trying to defend overpowered as shit cards and stop embarassing yourself
>>94055176>4 are banned>50+ exist:-| I mean I wouldn't really care except you hinged your argument off the fact that >tutors are banned in vintage/legacyAnd that's simply not true. You need to make a new argument because yours is now full of holes.
>>94055066because now when someone says "my deck is a 3 with X exception" they are making specific reference to a known list of cards and it gives a clearer picture what they are playingpeople do that now but everyone has their own personal list of cards that can differ a lot. this is why everyone says "my deck is a 7" and that means fucking nothing helpful to anyone.
>>94055178But they are banned in legacy, as I've just named half a dozen that got banned.>b-but what about 7 mana tutorsDishonest cope
>>94055160What do you mean anon, the averages of my deck is 1.99. I am not a 2.
>>94055178Read the context: >There's a reason tutors get banned but fetches don'tThis doesn't say or imply that tutors are collectively banned, just that they are fast higher in consideration for bans than fetches are. If that said "There's a reason creatures get banned but fetches don't", would you assume this means all creatures are banned? Or would you understand this is with respect to fetches?
>>94055193Hint: most tutors are not banned in legacy because most arent very good.
>>94055211>my image of enlightened tutor fell offSasuga.
>>94055185They're referencing a known list of cards that varies wildly in actual power level.It still doesn't actually tell you anything unless you actually ask me what the 3s in the deck are. And at that point you're just doing what you would normally do and thinking of how you feel about any given card and whether it actually deserves whatever tier it was arbitrarily placed into. Like if somebody's deck is a 2. Is it a 2 because they're running Fabricate alongside with all of the best artifact synergies they could squeeze into a deck, or is it a 2 because they like Thalia as a commander for their pile of overcosted angels? Simply saying it's a 2 is, at best, an indication that you are trying to begin an in-depth discussion on the power level of your deck. But that discussion still needs to occur and the initial number stated has no bearing on the outcome.
tier 4 here I come
>>94055229>second worst demonic tutorStep it up senpai.
I still can't believe any of this is real
Step aside, tier 4 commander coming through.
>>94055193Oh sorry 6 are banned. That's still less than like 5% of tutors so yes, saying tutors are banned or restricted in legacy/vintage is wrong, dishonest and a bad argument.
>>94055238I like the bolas art
>all green commanders are tier 4>all white commanders are tier 1
>>94055229Gavin said just having vampiric tutor doesn't make your deck a 4 even if it's a "4 card" the question is, what are you tutoring for?
>>94055250>That's still less than like 5% of tutors so yes, saying tutors are banned or restricted in legacy/vintage is wrong, dishonest and a bad argumentAs opposed to what percentage of fetches?As opposed to what percentage of artifacts? What about creatures, or hell, even lands in general? Why are you so insistent on tackling an argument that clearly wasn't being made to begin with?
>>94055263
>>94055263The other half of the blood/bond combo in my timmy rats deck
>>94055272ooh yeah sorry, tier 4 tables for you only
>>94055132The logic with the tiering seems to be that common staples like removal, land tutors, manarocks etc. is tier 1, with tier 2 and 3 including stax and other strategies that are considered at least somewhat annoying to play against, as well as rare cards with outsized impact on the game (Cyc Rift will probably be tier 3 while the stock wraths are t1, as the former is one-sided and more likely to let you set up a turn you swing for lethal, while the latter a primarily reactive to counter an opponent's stronger board presence). Free removal might end up in tier 2 as those are generally considered kind of cheesy.T1 wouldn't really be "low power magic", as stuff like fetches and StP are very good cards, but more like "fair magic" where you win by turning creatures sideways instead of comboing off. Aka. Timmy magic.
>>94055271Anon your argument hinged upon the fact that tutors are so strong they are banned in legscy/vintage. That is not the case, your argument has fallen apart. You need to further justify your position now instead of crying about being proven wrong
>>94055272>5 lands>basically 5 mana>for freeomg it's like mana crypt on steroids
>>94055263I identity as a tier 4 chud, fuck off with your hateful attitude.
So I've got a question if my friends lose to my deck and call it op do I get to have the last laugh if it turns out my deck is low tier?
Post secret tech to catch bracket jumpers
>>94055287https://www.autismparentingmagazine.com/autism-context-blindness/
>>94055287Dont worry, he already knows he's retarded. Soon you'll get tl;drs and insults when it dawns on him.
>>94055287you can't reason with bad players
>>94055301>anon who was wrong about tutors resorts to insults in the absence of argumentClassic scrub.
>>94055299
>>94055263If having a tier 4 card doesn't actually make your deck tier 4, then what's the point of even having tiers? Unless they establish something like your deck being considered the highest tier where the cards from the tier make up at least 10% of your deck. So a deck with 10 tier 3 cards and 4 tier 4 ones would count as tier 3, while one with 10 tier 4 cards would be a tier 4 deck.
>>94055311>feel bad discard spellThat's locked to [3] thankfully.
>>94055287Tutors are so strong they are banned in legacy and restricted in vintageThis is objectively true and I've already demonstrated itTrying to move the goal posts to>well if they cost multiple times more mana, are limited to sorcery speed or heavily restricted they aren't bannedIs pathetic and dishonest. A lot of cards stop being good if you triple the mana costYou know the discussion is about tutors actually seeing play in commander, not any card in the game that can possibly tutor no matter how limited it is.
>>94055228thats great, but the current system is exactly the same but with more guessworktier system is imperfect and will only be used as a loose guideline, but it is still better than what we are doing now (same thing but slightly less clear)
>>94055310>wrong about tutorsNoting said about tutors was wrong.All that happened was you misunderstood the premise and instead of seeking clarification, you hyperfixated.That's okay. That's a normal symptom and I have plenty of friends with autism. But you should still try to learn when you're doing it so you can adjust accordingly.
>yfw you swan song some nerds tutor
>>94055315you're an imbecile, the tiers are supposed to be an indicator of how "efficient" your deck is at actually winning the game. They said that like 10 times. If you have a shitpile that will never win the game then it doesn't matter how many tutors you throw in it, dumbfuck it won be tier 4. That's the whole point, because it wouldn't make sense to rate a shitpile as 4 just because the cards in it are good in a vacuum.They also put heavy emphasis on balancing between strength and "fun" and outright said if a card is powerful but everyone loves it it's going tier 1, like sol ring and the same is true of card combos
>>94055324Hence why Vampiric Tutor was the "tier 4" one, because it's instant and ridiculously efficient. Demonic only beats it by putting it right into the hand but both are probably on the same level for that tier consideration. More narrow/inefficient tutors are probably tiers 2/3 except severe outliers which'd be tier 4 (I'd say Tinker but that's banned already so I'm sure there's another one of similar power that isn't just an anything tutor) and land tutors which're more in 1.
>>94054770I started playing during Ixalan, and Elenda's been my favorite ever since I pulled her.https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Lo9Vqlu_PESFZh-U9woCHwAny upgrades? Preferably within 10 dollars.
>>94055332You've keep failing to explain how there's less guesswork. I set two tier decks on the table in front of you and say each is tier 3. Are they the same power level? If you can't answer that, then what steps do you need to take to figure that out?
>>94055334Anon I was right like an hour ago and you threw a hissy fit. You're arguing with more than one person.>>94055324I literally said enlightened tutor as an example of a bad tutor in legacy and you convienietly ignored it.
>>94055338>Uses the 1 mana tutor>After that resolves...
>>94055338every time I see a player like this I cast thought distortion on them and it works like every time.People keep telling me it's a bad card but idk...always manages to save my ass against blue players
>>94055350>You're arguing with more than one person.And so are you.My point remains.
>>94055356it's "bad" because it's like a feast or famine card, it's either a giant middle finger or 6 mana to do basically nothing and it only hits one person at the table so you need to make sure you're absolutely hitting the guy with the most interaction
>>94055359So you're saying 2cmc instant speed tutors are fine because they're fine in legacy, not so subtle wrong about tutors anon? Assuming they arent banned in legacy of course.
>>94055348because now power level estimates refer to a literal specific list of cards, not someone's mental list that can potentially differ wildly from yoursif there are two t3 decks on a table, and both adhere to the tier 3 ban lists while also playing a relevant number of cards that aren't allowed in tier 2, it is likely those cards are of a similar power level and it makes sense for them to be matched against each other.
two (2) banlists is better than four (4) brackets.
I hate how eager you idiots are to discuss WotC's 'TIERS' idea, assuming that it won't be a complete unworkable trashfire.
>>94055381You've made this post 20 times. Your complaints are noted.
>>94055381I'm enjoying speculating all the different ways they can/will fuck it up
>>94055381
>>94055350And Enlightened/worldly tutor don't outnumber the count of banned tutors The restrictions on those cards make them worse
>>94055368>while also playing a relevant number of cards that aren't allowed in tierNot a factor in a deck's tier placement. A tier 3 deck can have 100 tier 3 cards or 1 tier 3 card. You already need more than just the tier listing, since you need clarification on how many tier 3 cards are in a deck.But beyond that, those tier 3 cards could be things that are a month away from being bumped up to tier 4 due to being too powerful, or it could be things that deserve to be dropped to tier 1. You're running into somebody's mental list varying from yours again at that point in terms of what particular quantity of specific tier 3 cards makes a deck tier 3 from a power standpoint rather than a legality standpoint.So if you need to look through someone's deck and evaluate all of their most powerful cards, what has being told that the deck is a tier 3 actually helped with?
>>94055406Sure. So the bar set by legacy is all 2cmc tutors that arent demonic tutor are fine and all one cmc tutors that arent seal, vamp, or mystical are also fine, correct?
>>94055365*I'm* saying that tutor effects are much harder to balance than fetch effects. And they're effects that can (and have) been broken to a point that they can offer too much reliability and consistency even in circumstances where it's intentionally avoided.Fetches in the case being used to provide additional reference for how scope of the card can affect balance.
>Buy mint cards from Zhang in China.>Delivered in 2 days by FedEx to my door.>paid $1 instead of $80>dont care if card is damaged>seller scams me because the cards he sold me increased in price by $10>buying directly from WotC takes months. free curling out of the box included.
>>94055381I think it's ironic. The cynic in me thinks the tiers are based on the idea that if a card is included, it's going to be used in the most degenerate way it possibly *could* be. It wouldn't necessarily be an incorrect assumption from Wizards, this is a playerbase that minmaxes for efficiency wherever possible, but it is kind of an insulting assumption to make. Say what you will about the RC, at least they played the game.
So was it ever explained why Sam Hyde was chosen to be the face of that deck?And who was responsible for this terrible art in the first place?
>>94055424And my original point that was ignored was, tutors are fine, the card being tutored for is what's degenerate, because the payoff is strong regardless of enabler. Tutors can be used for a variety of things, payoffs have only one use. If payoffs are correctly tiered (lol like that will happen) tutors are significantly weaker.
>>94055459predictive programmingSam Hyde will make Kaladesh real. right here on Earthget ready for your gold filigree cell phone powered by magic
>>94055459He can't keep getting away with it.
>>94055468Goddamn if kaladesh becomes real, imagine the smell. Poop filled filagree flying suicide drones and massive poop filled death trains riding on poop tracks everywhere.
>>94055466But the strengths of the cards are proportional to the format their in.Win cons will exist at every level and they're as much of a threat in a tier one to another tier one as they are in a tier four to another tier four.*This* is exactly method people are going to try and use to "break the format".*Insert strongest legal card here* and vampiric tutor it.It's pretty obvious that's what it's going to devolve to, so the point is to make the tutors at the lower levels less consistent.
>>94055324I never shifted goalposts. You claimed tutors are so strong they are banned/restricted. That is simply not the case!!! A very, VERY small number of tutors are banned. This changes your entire argument whether or not you want to accept it
>>94055419No, because every tutor still has different restrictions that either make or break the card and are not as simple as anything 2cmc is fineMerchant Scroll is still restricted in vintage despite being limited to blue instants because the vintage meta is different than legacy. Color matters, card type matters, what it can tutor matters, cost matters. The fact that so many tutors are on the banlist at all is clear evidence that tutor cards frequently break the game. And should be under constant scrutiny. Especially the ones that have already made the list in other formats.
>>94055515Do you often get into discussions like this anon?
>>94055445dock worker union bros RISE UP
>>94055513This. It's not an outlandish idea to restrict tutors, particularly low-cmc tutors, to higher tiers in order to reduce consistency. Consistency and power are fundamentally intertwined, especially in a singleton format.
>>94055515>You claimed tutors are so strong they are banned/restricted. That is simply not the caseIt objectively is. There are cards on the banlist that are tutors both in name and function>A very, VERY small number of tutorsActually it's many of the ones that actually see play and are contentious in commander. You are trying to shift the discussion to every card in the game that can possibly tutor. You know when people talk about tutors in commander the ones they are referring to, and are dishonestly trying to deflect from that
>>94055459>nu commander goes infinite with several +1 card combos>has an infinite in it out of the box>oh yeah mine is totally tier 1 since it's a precon
>>94055513I mean, I'm one of the guys who *will* break the format and tutors have little to do with my plan, in fact the lack of tutors is one thing I'm going to exploit, but I can agree with the logic here. I think my problem is I'm assuming a balanced format with removal and counters and such, but you're right. If good tutors are lower tier, they'll be used to grab lower wincons, but I still feel that the silver bullet aspect provides diverse answers to unexpected threats, and that's essential to avoid people like me making some uniteractable bullshit.
>>94055539Yes. There are arrogant wrong people everywhere and not all of us are strong enough to stand up to them but luckily for you I am!
>>94053789Sounds fun. Best games ive ever been in were over 2 hrs
>>94055559>There are arrogant wrong people everywhereWell at least you're self aware
>>94055571How am I incorrect anon? The vast majority of tutors aren't banned. What I've stated is correct lol
>>94055557Tutors can't interact with anything that other cards can'tEither your combo is uninteractable or other spells can address itAnd tutors allow you to get protection just as easily
>>94055579When people discuss tutors wrt. EDH it simply does not refer to as broad a pool of cards as you are pretending it doesAnd you know that, and you know you are wrong because of how many tutors are on the list. It's most of the ones people want gone from commander.
Going to my first FNM this week with a shitty precon (the valgavoth one)because the bits for my jank bat deck have not arrived yetWish me luck
>>94055341>If you have a shitpile that will never win the game then it doesn't matter how many tutors you throw in it, dumbfuck it won be tier 4In that case, shouldn't they just make tutors tier 1 and determine the tier of the deck by the other cards that you might be tutoring, instead making Vampiric (and probably Demonic as well) Tutor tier 4 but not really count as tier 4 if the rest of your deck is bad enough? That kind of defeats the whole point of having a tiering system for cards.
>>94055381>assuming that it won't be a complete unworkable trashfireWho says it hasn't? Part of the discussion has stemmed from how stupid their examples have been and how convoluted the system appears on face value.
>>94055605If you want to redefine terms for your argument that's fine but you need to do it from the getgo, not after you've been shown to be retarded
>ran it in a deck with Crypt and Jeweled LotusIs it still worth running Trinket Mage in a deck where the only targets are Mana Vault, Sensei's, and Sol Ring?
>>94055407then that is an outlier (just like exists in the current "rule 0 discussion" system) and you would describe your deck as "tier 2 but with X/Y tier 3 cards"you seem to be under the impression that because the system is imperfect and has edge cases where it isn't useful means that the entire thing is pointless. any problem you have described still exists in our current system because the entire thing is just "have a rule 0 talk"
>>94055635Leaked paste had all of those except Sol Ring at tier 4, at that point you'll also be able to run Crypt and Lotus anyway.
>>94055489magic febreeze would fix that like how wizards in Harry potter poop their pants and magic it away
>>94055581Let's use Uril as an example (read: this is not my only plan). Unless he's a higher tier because wotc lurks here and has seen me posting about it, he's a relatively underplayed commander that has little data to support a higher power level. He has no haste, he's expensive, and he is in weak colours that wont have great fixing. But where the hypothetical deck will be dominant is redundancy with cards that will certainly be low tier, like edh boggles. There are four ways to answer this deck: plentiful enchantment removal, which are objectively the hardest cards to interact with off the stack; extremely specific nontargeting removal, which needs to be tutored and can be played around easily; racing the deck, which is a losing proposition and; stax, which will be stuck at a higher tier. Tutors are the only viable way to grab an answer fast enough to stop this kind of thing in a singleton deck. Without them, it's going to be very difficult to stop, which is what I'm counting on.
>>94055646where's the leaked paste
>>94055663It existed once, then got taken down.
>>94055616>why didn't they work out all the problems yetbecause they said it's a rough idea, nothing is solid and the lists will not be solely determined by wotc but also by community consensus. We are at least a year from any actual concrete rules changes and you are mentally retarded for even trying to draw concrete lines at this point
>>94055663It was taken down but some guys on /r/freemagic have it.If you're willing to use d*scord there's also a guy that saved it.https://pastebin.com/bWPFVthV
>>94055627It's not redefining, it was always clear and if you weren't trying so desperately to be dishonest about it you would admit itYou know full well what kind of tutors are actually in discussion
>>94055635Just play tier 4 at that point, man, you're just going to use it for the most generic and obnoxious things possible anyway.
>>94055661The anime villain vibes of this post are hilarious. No one gives a shit about your low power Uril deck lol
>>94055639>any problem you have described still exists in our current system because the entire thing is just "have a rule 0 talk"Exactly. That's what makes it pointless. Because the entire thing is still just "have a rule 0 talk" except people will throw out different numbers than 7 which are equally meaningless.
>>94055682If it was clear then how come everyone disagreed with you anon...
>>94055616>Tutor tier 4 but not really count as tier 4 if the rest of your deck is bad enough? That kind of defeats the whole point of having a tiering system for cards.that makes no sense. why would decks ever have their strength determined by a single card when that's not how the game works?
>>94055697Except not. Because there will be an established tier list, which means there is no room for disputes or person opinions. It's not "I feel my deck is a 1 even though..." it's "you're deck is a 3 as per the official standard of the format". Ot is honestly scary how fucking stupid half of you are
>>94055703>EveryoneYou mean you and the other anon that was confused? Why do you insist on being so hyperbolic.
>>94055714>it's "you're deck is a 3 as per the official standard of the format"Aside from where you just said here >>94055639>you would describe your deck as "tier 2 but with X/Y tier 3 cards"There is no 'tier 2 but with a couple tier 3 cards'. That's just a tier 3 deck. Anything else requires a rule 0 talk, and the rule 0 talk will be contingent on each person's opinions about what they feel is a suitable exception.The only way the system isn't pointless is if you're 100% strict about tiers and refuse to play your 100 tier 2 cards against 99 tier 1 cards and a single tier 3 card. But people have been routinely pointing out how retarded that mindset is.As soon as you introduce any sort of wiggle room based on what people feel like making exceptions for, you're back to square one.
>>94055714>Except not. Because there will be an established tier listno there won't
>>94055743>There is no 'tier 2 but with a couple tier 3 cards'. That's just a tier 3 deckwrong, watch the stream before posting next time you retarded fucking animal
>>94055714>which means there is no room for disputes or person opinionsIt sounds to me more like you're in a pod that probably doesn't like you that much.You're projecting a lot when you say stuff like this.
>>94055693We're talking about tutors in the low tier and why they're important. I presented a cheap uniteractive deck that will be very powerful if you arent allowed to tutor and explained why you'd need them. You're free to disagree for any number of reasons, but without them you're going to have a bad time.
>>94055661And again. Tutors don't address any of thatPeople aren't likely to have considerably amounts of enchantment removal period. A boggles deck doesn't fold to 1 piece of enchantment hateIf players aren't already packing that niche removal then a tutor won't solve it.And in all cases access to tutors makes it easier for you to find protection. Tutors add consistency to both sides which still leaves them needing to find MORE answers because you have counters for their first onesUril is already not a menace while many players don't run those cards, and if it became a problem it would be handled the same way every cancerous commander is now: nobody will play with youBut you're obviously a friendless sperg to begin with
>>94055753These rulings are not for your pod anon. It's for randoms you play with.>>94055745Sure!
>>94055763you're right and the people replying to you are all wrong on the stream they were very clear that the tiers didn't mean anything and were just a method to force players into having a rule 0 conversation. So they're meaningless and people will continue to judge deck strength on its actual ability to win games rather than individual cards
>>94055703You samefagging isn't everyoneAnd "why are people losing an argument disengenuous?" isn't a real question
>>94055752So there's no standard to the format, and you have to have a rule 0 talk anyway? Glad we cleared that up.
>>94055743>Anything else requires a rule 0 talk, and the rule 0 talk will be contingent on each person's opinions about what they feel is a suitable exception.which is exactly where we were at prior to this change. you have to see how this tier system will work at least some % of the time and prevent the need for a rule 0 conversation, and how even it it doesn't at least some % of the time it will be a useful tool in the rule 0 type conversationthis system is meant to be informal and it is likely that there are going to be few if any tournaments that formally enforce the distinction between tier 1/2/3 decks.
Since WotC is in talks with the RC and CAG and they are discussing which cards to keep banned and which ones to unban, aside from the obvious ones from september 23rd, which ones do you think might get unbanned?
>>94055799Yeah, I hope that works out for you anon. I'm just gonna ignore it and look at the cards, since that's more reliable than arbitrarily chosen numbers.
>>94055302>Soon you'll get tl;drs and insultsBoy, this sure has been happening to you a lot lately, huh?
I feel like some cards should have restrictions beyond colors..Whenever I play mite deck with phyrexian dinos and eleah norns and mondrak it's awesome.. but then.I just had a dude play fluffy bears and he dropped an elesh norn. Yeah, sure, as if that absolute god of an entity would walk into the forrest to buff bears.I also watched someone drop a tyrranax rex in his dino deck and another a mondrak in his soldier token deck.That's not cool. It's so out of place
>>94055835This game isn't made for you anymore nerd, AUTOBOTS ROLL OUT
>>94055774Oh, you had no intention of talking about magic or game balance. That's cool, I want to build good decks and will continue to do so.>>94055777Yes and no. Rule zero shifted from the players to judges and the TO as an anon eloquently explained last night. Instead of negotiating with your pod, you need to negotiate with the organizers, which means there is much less wiggle room. Games at your friends house? Never mattered in the first place. As a result, tiers will be more or less enforced, the same way the rc's banlist was. The conversation is an easy one and the same on both sides: "my deck is tier x, your deck is tier y because of z card. I dont want to be pubstomped." It remains to be seen how those conversations will shake out.
>>94055835As much as I would prefer thematic decks be the norm, there's really not a good way to enforce that. The best thing you can do there is build a Cube to sate your autism and then convince people to draft it.
>>94055835I like to make "themed" decks for my friends based on their hobbies or events from our past.Not totally related to your post, but at least falls into that concept of flavor in design.I have a lot of fun making those decks.
>>94055859There is. Make like.. elesh norn and mondrak 1 mana more expensive, then make more lands like the seedcore but have it make 2 for that faction only. That way we aren't banning cards but make em fit better into the theme
>>94055870That pushes things in that direction, but it doesn't actually solve things, because the person running those bears who wants an Elesh Norn effect will just run extra ramp to make up for the increased cost. And that's when there is something as explicit as creature type to play around with regards to theme. There's ways to build thematic decks, but there's not ways to force other people to build thematic decks. At least not without making deckbuilding incredibly restrictive. And that doesn't even work fully in Yugioh where most cards are extremely specific in what archetype they work with.
>>94055846>you need to negotiate with the organizersI don't understand this logic. The only time you need to negotiate with organizers is when it comes to tournaments.That's the only time that you have no discretion regarding who you're up against. Do you seriously believe they're going to have judges wandering around forcing people to play with you?
>>94055883But ai'm fine with that. It would still make lots of people drop those out of theme cards. A push is all I want
>>94055835Sounds like you met with a grizzly fate.
>>94055835Yeah, it's why I dislike 5-color goodstuff piles that just throw a ton of random legendaries together into a themeless, tasteless slop. I prefer decks to have a theme, whether that's being built around a creature type or some mechanic or thematic trait.Phyrexians in particular feel off in most decks that aren't either Phyrexian tribal or mono-black (or maybe Rakdos) because they have such a specific identity. They particularly feel wrong in most non-Phyrexian tribal decks because lore-wise their other creature type is usually just what the creature used to be before it got compleated. Like yes, Tyrranax Rex technically fits into a dinosaur tribal deck but thematically it's first and foremost a Phyrexian, with the dinosaur type being just a leftover from its pre-compleated existence.
>>94055890Short answer? No. Long answer? Yes with a but. However, before I waste my time replying to someone who's intending to insult me, what other sanctioned formats do you play? What do those games look like and how do players feel about the banlist?
>>94055846I did talk about magic and game balance>I want to build good decksNo what you want to do is try (and fail) to defend tutors and seek attention by playing an archetype that historically people have lacked main deck answers to with or without tutors
>see artwork I like>look up other cards of artist>rest is crapmany such cases
Tell me what color hand is in your arcane signet
>>94055926Tutors don't need defending anon they exist and people enjoy playing with them
>>94055930blue or something
>>94055930white.
>>94055946spooked
>>94055930None
>>94055930Rainbow Extended Nigger Hands
>>94055950I believe you
What are some of the better put together commander precons out of the box in 2024?
>>94055930a bat
>>94055957DOGMEAT DOGMEAT DOGMEAT
>>94055936the same can be said about every broken and banned cardYou're too low IQ to argue properly
>>94055930Hand? What hand? I see no hand here!
>>94055967But they aren't banned anon...
>>94055661There aren't that few non-targetinng removal spells these days. Council's judgement, soul shatter, flare of malice, make an example and every boardwipe for example.
>>94055926>no you dont want to build good decks>you want to beat low power players with a low power deck, following the low power banlist, by playing a deck people lack main deck answers to, and absolutely cannot answer even with the cards in their deck without tutorsSeems like a good deck to me.
>>94055979Specifically aiming for archetypes people don't main answers for in a casual format is attention seeking troon behaviorYou can build good and interactive decks instead of seeking attention but choose not to
>>94055975Depends how they're tiered. Innocent blood or any other edict works too. That's why I brought up tutors. People might play these cards, assuming they're on the same tier, but grabbing a singleton copy of one of your five-ish answers without tutors before Uril smacks you to death is the whole gamble, and while Uril wont win every time, smart money is on Uril.
>>94055846No and No. The tier lists won't be enforced because they can't be because as they said on stream MANY TIMES it's not actually an archive of all cards set in tiers 1-4 it is a concept based tier list.One of the concepts explicitly mentioned is "efficiency of combos" so a combo like ad naus thoracle would be a tier 4 strategythoracle as part of a combo based on actual devotion instead of self mill would be a significantly lower tier. So you see, retard it can't be enforced because even in their own tiers there is no concrete or objective measure of strength which is why ON STREAM again (which everyone keeps ignoring for some reason) is there will be a singular ban list on top of the "tiers" because the tiers are a meme like power level and you are simply wrong.
>>94056002nta, but I can do that to in 60 card for mtg or even other card games. Its called anti-meta ya twatwaffle.
>>94055919>and how do players feel about the banlist?Mixed feelings at worst. The general feeling is that something needed to go and mostly arguing about whether it should be jewel or crypt. And it's only the sweatier players that don't agree it should have been both. Outside of draft, it's edh, 2HG, and FFA even if that's not sanctioned.Given I live with a cEDH player, I'd say he feels like he's been personally targeted by a lot of what's happened. And honestly, yeah, he's probably right. Most of the people in our pod have been fed up with his bullshit and he's been playing with other groups more now anyway.I'm actually really concerned for him because he seems like he's going into a spiral. He really doesn't know how to tone it down, and I genuinely hope that the tier lists will give him suggestions for how to level out a bit instead of seeing it as a personal attack. I hope the best for him.
>>94056002>no anon, you cant build a good deck using the official rules from wotc and the same cardpool as me>that's not fair, how will my bad deck win if I cant call you a pubstomper for beating me?Not my problem. You complained for a decade to have a low power edh format and you got one. Dont be mad that some people are better than others when all things are equal. If only you could tutor leadership vaccuum, right anon?
>>94056028no normal person thought both should be banned haha in fact I've only ever seen a jeweled lotus like 3 times irl and nobody cared when it happened because it was always just some guy trying to ramp his gigafuck expensive timmy commander that would just get counterspelled immediately anyway
being anti-meta is based
>>94055859What exactly is a cube and how do I make one, is it just a box full of decks?
>>94056046but dude it's like black lotus so that makes it like...le evil
>>94056013Sorry anon, we're playing t1. Dont bring t2 cards and try to pubstomp, that's not cool.>>94056028I appreciate your earnest reply, but my banlist question was about banlists in other formats. It was a trick, you see, because in any format, unless you're playing kitchen table with your friends no one will allow banned cards. Ironically he hasnt realized that the teir lists were made for him: he now has 4 formats of cedh instead of one. If he wants to play strong cardboard, nothing is stopping him from playing with likeminded people, but he can now brew 3 other formats too to the same extent. But if he just wanted to beat his friends using expensive cardboard and not play riveting games with people of equal power, he got what he deserves.
>>94056057You’re essentially making a sealed box to draft with the flavor/balancing/experience you want. You’ll have randomized packets of cards for players to pass around and draft. Idr the numbers anymore but there are guides for total number of cards and proportions.
>>94056067>Sorry anon, we're playing t1. Dont bring t2 cards and try to pubstomp, that's not cooltier 2 cards do not make your deck tier 2 that's why they said the tiers are not based on card strength but on combinations and strategies with the cards just there as a loose example.If a tier list were enforced you'd have to sit there and accept me playing ancient tomb in my t1 deck because it's relentless rats
All this shit is telling me is how many people thought their deck was genuinely a 7 when they packed it with random blowout cards.
>>94056077Interesting, thanks
>>94056046That's your personal experience, so I understand why you might be surprised that the bans happened at all. But it's something that's been on the table for quite some time. The larger opinion I've gotten from people is that the logic for keeping sol ring didn't make sense, which was the common talking point between those in favor and against either ban.
>>94056086>casuals are told explicitly that having an ancient tomb in your jank pile does not in fact make it cedh>they still cry and liethis is so sad lmao watch the stream bro it's actually that easy
>>94056046I don't know a single person in real life who dislikes "fast mana" in fact I hear the opposite everyone loves mana because it's the only way they can keep up with getting counterspelled constantly or having shit removed every turn
>>94056102Yet anons display a comical amount of fear over not being allowed to run those "unimpactful" cards.
>>94056085Nope. You can have the rule zero discussion and hypothetically convince people to allow it if you're charming or logical, but I'm going to say no every single time unless it's something very cool. After all, I dont want to be pubstomped by your mean cardboard wotc told me is more powerful than mine.
>>94056111hahaha you are so mad. watch the stream brothey said you can run ancient tomb in your t1 decks like explicitly that was the example they used.Time to grow up and admit there's no such thing as "blowout cards" only blowout combos
>>94056033Nobody is running leadership vacuum regularly to begin with, I've already explained this and you're too subhuman to understand >>9405601860 card formats have sideboarding
>>94056120So true bestie. You don't mind me running my smol bean t4 card in my t1 deck, right?
>>94056121commander has sideboarding now toothe rule the RC made to ban it was removed when wotc listed the rules on their website. Wish cards were silently made legal so I will be adding fae of wishes to every deck
>that guy cackling like a villian for two days straight was actually the good guyWell that's a fun surprise.
>>94056129No, I don't because that's not how tiers work and there's a ban list on top of the tiers :) a single ban list that applies to all tiers because the tiers are a rule 0 with no clear cut boundaries
>>94056137Yeah it was weird that they made Gay Bolas a reluctant hero but I like where the story is going.
>>94056129>getting this angry that Gavin himself confirmed you can do exactly this
>>94056067>It was a trick, you see, because in any format, unless you're playing kitchen table with your friends no one will allow banned cardsThat's not really a "trick".Not a really good or clever one to make at least, because at this point you're basically defining "sanctioned" as judge enforced. If I tell you I'm playing sanctioned but we make concessions, that's enough in normal conversation to communicate what general structure we're following and then explaining the specifics, moreso than just saying "we're playing kitchen table".
>>94056116>Anon says no>the two other players say yes>Anon either seethes quietly and plays or leavesYou sure showed them!
>>94056144Sorry bestie, but it's really not that powerful. It's just an extra turn and the new rules say the only cards banned are ante, conspiracy, Chaos Orb, Falling Star, and Sharazhad (they forgot to say the racist cards are banned)
>>94056121It doesnt matter if they did, they'll never draw it without tutors. Have fun losing to my variety of "bad" decks. Surely you enjoy losing with your fun janky deck and wont throw a huge tantrum when it never ever wins, regardless of tier.
>>94056165The ban list still applies anon...
>>94056156this is usually what happens and it fascinates me that people really pretend these rule 0 talks go nowhere the entire reason Maro hates rule 0 and calls them useless is because for every person at the table who hates a card there's 2 more who love it
>>94056169Didn't you hear? P9 isn't banned anymore. It's just tier 4.
>>94056168>bro you'll draw the tutors but not the cards delusion
>>94056180>Anon lies because his argument is so shit
>>94056188A 15 out of 99 chance is thrice as high as a 5 out 99 chance using only 8 cards, three of which are tutors, anon who was wrong about tutors and bad at math. But you knew that already, you're just pretending to be retarded.
>PLEASE PLEASE PLEEEASE LET ME USE JEWELED LOTUS IN MY POWER 1 DECK I PAID $200 FOR IT>No. This is a tier 1 table so you can only use tier 1 cards. If you try to play with it I will call the store owner over and he will evict you for trespassing>YOU'LL NEVER TAKE ME ALIVE!!! I PLAY JEWELED LOTUS TO CAST NADU, WINGED WISDOM! BEHOLD MY POWER 4 COMBO!!!>Hey Mr. Store Owner, this guy played a banned card can we rape and kill him?>NOOO!!! STOP RAPING AND KILLING ME!!! I- I EQUIP SHUKO TO- I CAST MANA CR- ACK!
>>94056240I say this and act like this.
>>94056203If I'm not running tutors, then I'm running more draw AND more answers, so the lack of tutors doesn't matter. Have you ever considered that might be something someone does? My playgroup fully believes in the "20 pieces of interaction", do you think your Uril deck would do so well in a playgroup like that, even without tutors?
>>94056130I was about to call you out as a bullshitter, but you're right. Nowhere in the comprehensive rules or the official mtg rules on their website state that. Rule 10 has only been on the, now unofficial, rules website for commander.
>>94054767I've seen people complain there non-cedh deck sucks now just because of the ban jlo like how fucking bad do you have to be at deck building and at magic
>>94056264Wow this is like L vs N from my death note Mangas. You are both so powerful.... oh my goodness who will win!
>>94056294>>94056130Commander has always "had" sideboarding retards. You can change your deck literally whenever it isn't currently in the process of being played. You can swap out cards for hate pieces good against decks you know you're about to play. No one can stop you. I did it all the time
>>94056328Umm... It's "Light" and "L" at this table, anon. We don't recognize "N" here, you can take that to T3. "Near" can stay tho.
>>94056297It definitely hurt my Szadek and Sisters of Stone Death decks. Overcosted cards for what you'd pay for the same effect nowadays, lotus definitely was a nice thing to draw in to.
>>94056339That is not what we are talking about anon. This is the only rules from the CompRules by wotc that regards wish-like effects in commander. Meaning the floodgates are open. We can actually make use of sideboards in the middle of a match.I can, for example, now use Mastermind's Acquisition second effect to retrieve a card from a sideboard during a match.
>>94055930I only play the superior mind stone
>>94056264>he pulled the "muh playgroup is so tough" cardYou've lost the plot. I'm not going to play pretend games with an idiot. I'll happily play real ones when the meta drops, that's why I'm building degenerate decks using the banlist in the first place.
>>94056367>I can, for example, now use Mastermind's Acquisition second effect to retrieve a card from a sideboard during a match.Wait, we weren't allowed to do that? Nta, but my buddy and I would play at that we were literally digging through our binders to whip out cards. We only played "side boards only" when it was tournament play and then followed the rule of cool. Like if you tried ancestral recall or black lotus, you'd get called out but if you tried something fun or interesting the sky was the limit.
>>94056403Yeah it was a rule on the RC's website that was enforced for years. But considering they, the RC, are no longer in charge, everyone can enjoy that, not just at home with friends.
>play with friends >Don't have to worry about RC or whatever the fuck with is smoking with brackets>Have fun Really simple
>>94056430>Play with friendsOooh, so that's why people are upset.
>>94056436Makes sense, my friends play shit ranging from meme unplayable shit to full power cedh rog/sigh and everyone has fun, it's really nice being able to play the game regardless of what people online or wotc say
>>94053539easier to separate cedh from casual players just looking to have fun and will most likely have products catered to both groups
>>94056679>>94056679>>94056679migrate when ready
>so guys we made this tier list it's basically about how your deck performs as a whole so you can be like oh yeah this card is normally considered really strong but the only purpose it serves in my dragon pile is to tutor more dragons so the deck still averages to tier 1>/edhg/ haha if you have a SINGLE vampiric tutor and 99 swamps you're playing a tier 4 deck!I don't understand how anybody can watch that stream and not understand it. They were pretty fucking clear about it
>>94056691What do you have against playing a ton of dragons?
>>94056430my friend is already laughing that my tier 4 armageddon can't even win games against tier 1 decks
>>94055957the ones that are above $50 in price
