>>94239369
My apologies, I somehow managed to screw up the Previous Thread:
>>94046071

>TQ
i had the kzinti show up post-dominion war, having barely progressed in technology since ToS but causing a lot of problems by being belligerent retards in a politically sensitive time
i've wanted to use the Hydrans from Starfleet Command at some point but haven't found the time

>>94239464
>but causing a lot of problems by being belligerent retards in a politically sensitive time
That sounds like a day ending in y for the Tellerites!

I'm surprised there is an actual pirate code on Orion and it doesn't have an, "Eh, whatever works," clause.

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That time of the year has come.
See you on the other side of the Badlands, /stg/.

>>94240153
That's because the code is more of a guideline than a law, that part is implied.

>>94239369
>TQ
Liberal use of ideas from the old activision games. Mentions of the Kessok and Taubat as independent, friendly polities towards the Federation. An anti-infiltration program instituted by Starfleet Security referred to as the Warden Protocol. A couple appearances of Hazard Teams as a new Starfleet marine contingent. Nothing too blatant, but its there.

>>94241894
Apparently it's both a law and a guideline.

I know it shouldn’t bother me as much as it does, but I’m so sick of alien cultures having some stupid trial by combat shit as their ultimate arbiter of right and wrong. Fucks me off something fierce.

>>94246273
What if it was nude Greco-Roman wrestling and also they won't be wrestling in the traditional sense?

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>>94246273
I get that it's a matter of personal tolerance, and that's cool. I liked this, and for a number of reasons. Keeping the peace between such disparate factions is going to be tricky at the best of times, relying on such contests works because a. they're ancient traditions and who can argue with ancient traditions, plus b. the loser is at fault for not gettin' gud son (including at cheating). So basically it's a passing the buck for ruling against the various families and letting them decide the competition based on their skills. The outcome isn't, therefore, the fault of the Pirate Queen, because it's all on the participants.

Also I dig that a traditional pirate culture uses a contest with ancient solar sailing ships. Tickles me in a good way.

>>94246507
>>94246273
Also makes sense that the ancient pirate culture would have an ancient tradition based on ancient piracy. Shooting each other, wrecking each others' ships, and boarding each others' ships to pirate the booty that was already pirated are a-okay. Blowing up the booty is not, resulting in the party who blew it up and the party who allowed it to be blown up both being losers.

>>94246586
>Shooting each other, wrecking each others' ships, and boarding each others' ships to pirate the booty that was already pirated are a-okay
That most definitely was not okay, and for similar reasons. While the booty wasn't being lost the internecine conflict was only damaging Orions and resulted in trading the same already stolen booty back and forth. As the Queen said, she needs them to stop attacking each other and get back to work pirating other people and actually increasing the amount of overall booty. Of course that was largely self interest since without the new booty coming in the Syndicate was losing overall revenue.

Also for what it's worth Tendi did mention that the use of this particular run and solar sailing ships hadn't been used in hundreds of years, so while this run is traditional being invoked now was a big surprise to everyone.

>>94246868
Normally yes, but the stakes were that the winner would basically absorb the assets of the loser because they couldn't stop fighting each other, so it was one last big fight winner takes all.

>>94246921
Fair is fair, it turned out House Azure didn't have much to begin with.

>>94245003
a lawline

I have to admit, I was kind of disappointed at the reveal for what was "wrong" with Tendi's sister. I'd have been happier if spoilered for the sake of anyone who hasn't seen the episodes yet, the ship they obtained turned out to still be carrying the ancient virus causing a new plague among the Orions with Tendi's starfleet medical training being the solution. The way they talked about the old medical ship they no longer bother with medical ships, reminding me of how the Klingons, when they went full warriortard, stopped caring much about healthcare (carrying over into the 24th century per Martok). A nice example of how Tendi following her own pursuits benefited her people and opening the way for more to follow suit.

On the other hand a pandemic plot might still be a bit much right now.

>>94247490
I think that might have been done as a tip of the hat to SNW. We know Roger Korby's showing up next season, and TOS establishes that he discovered ancient Orion vaccine technology.

Also there's a future episode titled Fully Dilated which I assume will explore the consequences of the actual secret.

>>94247490
I felt it was a good twist.

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SEXCELSIOR!

>>94246273
Normally I dont mind but I do in this specific case. I understand the reasoning behind it as the Orion Queen, wanting to quash something before it blows up into a lot of internal bloodshed, but I can also see through the writing and know it only happened because they needed Tendi back more quickly and cut the more interesting potential of an Orion Civil War short. That being said, if any culture would have trial by combat to settle a dispute I think it's the Orions.

>>94239369
>>94239464
I feel like having the Kzinti do something almost feels like something everyone's done. And I dont mean that as an insult I support this.

>>94247490
This is a good idea, I think that it doesnt work character wise because they wanted the sisters caring about each other to be a two way street and your idea lacks that. But otherwise, solid. I also think the little tidbits of Orion lore are tantalising and anything that would give us more has my support.

>>94251032
it's pretty easy when you think about it, the Kzinti are one of the most detailed races out there that have barely done anything in Star Trek proper. all of that info from Niven's books is just sitting there for a GM to appropriate.

>>94251188
because the Kzinti of star trek aren't EXACTLY niven's. he just used his kzinti. but they are different.

in star trek the kzinti are a 100% zero contact species. by interstellar treaty they cannot be allowed any advanced technology of any kind, or they immediately go full interstellar warlord and weaponise it in insane ways. anything else, like lower derps having a kzinti crewman. is utter bullshit fucktardery. the kzinti's schtick is they're insane, utterly incapable of being reasoned with in any way, wannabe galaxy conquerers. even the federation HAD to kick the shit out of them and stone age them, marooning them on their planet.

>>94251229
>the kzinti's schtick is they're insane, utterly incapable of being reasoned with
Something about this strikes me as immediately wrong based on their appearance in TAS, but it's been a while since I watched the episode so give me a little bit to go refresh myself.

>>94251272
in their appearance in TAS, they got their hands on transporter tech, ONE. and they turn it into a wierd do-insane shit gun. threatening the enterprise and crew.

>>94251286
that's not what happened, they just dug up a superweapon from a previous civilization (also from Niven's work (you'd think that someone would mention the whole 'there was a race that psionically wiped out all sapient life in the galaxy' thing past that but nope)) that had a bunch of random settings
they say they "stole" their ship but that was a false flag to operate as raiders without incriminating their government

>>94251229
>by interstellar treaty they cannot be allowed any advanced technology of any kind
Wrong, the treaty only specified weapons outside of police vessels.
>>94251286
It wasn't transporter tech, it was a Thrintun (renamed Slaver) weapon, a hyper advanced species from a billion years ago.
At least get your shitposts straight, but you can't even be assed to do that because you're not here for legitimate conversation.

>>94251317
they dug up a transporter. one. and turned it into the crazy weapon. then immediately started to try and take over the galaxy. because they are insane lunatics

>>94251330
again. a 'slaver weapon' being a transporter. which they turned into an actual fucking weapon.

>>94251331
>>94251336
Anon, we're literally explaining the episode to you, because we watched it and you haven't. Sit this one out.

>>94251360
I did to watch it. and I re-watched it just a few months back.

>>94251409
And yet you got two important plot details completely wrong. For a 22 minute episode of a 70s kids cartoon. Curious!

>>94251286
I dunno, I'm rewatching the episode now and have the transcript open from Chakotaya. The Chuft Captain mentions Kzinti archaeologists, the existence of which is dependent on large, organized societies that are generally peaceable towards at least themselves. Doesn't quite line up with the idea of the Kzinti being, as you said, "insane, utterly incapable of being reasoned with in any way".

For that matter the Chuft Captain is pretty nice towards the psychic despite the psychic being described as "neurotic". He sympathizes with the psychic hating to read the minds of vegetarians and reassures him that he knows that reading minds takes a lot out of him and he'll need time to recover between mind-reading sessions.

I dunno, nothing about the Kzinti in this episode strikes me as being utterly incapable of being reasoned with, certainly no more so than the Klingons from the same era.

>>94250924
I have never liked the look of the Excelsior, it just looks off.

The idea that any species that is inherently bloodthirsty and insane becoming warp capable without having some psychic powers is stupid as fuck and should be dismissed just on that premise alone. I havent seen Voyager but the Kazon apparently stole warp tech from the Trabe? I can accept that as an exception.

>>94251478
Even the Kazon aren't strictly speaking bloodthirsty and insane, they're just a fractured clan-based society with frequent inter-clan squabbles over power and resources. It would make sense for one clan to get warp tech somehow, even by trade, and the others go after them to get it by force.

>>94246273
It's a trope in fantasy too, it's just a cheap way for a writer to go "well actually talking things out is extremely boring and hard to write so why don't they just fight instead."

That reminds me of an idea on this board for basic fantasy orks to like arguing and debating as much as they do fighting so a fierce legal debate is a battle to them.

So where are all the Klingon lawyers at?

>>94251800
I was about to say, you're describing Klingons. I can buy that Klingons are actually a lot more civilised than Orions and spend more time arguing things out

>>94251478
This is also the reason the Gorn storyline in SNW is fucking stupid btw

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>>94251800
>>94251820
There's the one guy in the DS9 episode who basically says exactly that. Courtrooms are just another battlefield, ect.

Also Kirk's trial in Undiscovered Country, of course.

>>94251800
>So where are all the Klingon lawyers at?
Working hard. For the Empire.

Wasn't it that earlier Klingons were more dedicated to the state, rather than pure warfare? They favoured a Spartan lifestyle and focusing on the betterment of the whole, rather than themselves. A scientist working hard being equally honorable as fighting. There's also the possibility to be like the Cardassians, where they were a more liberal society, but social problems allowed the military to take over and they became more authoritarian and militaristic.

>>94252117
They took this a bit further in ENT when they had Phlox working with a Klingon doctor and Not-Martok as a lawyer defending Archer (before both are sent to Rura Penthe for bonus Undiscovered Country references; and people say LD is full of memberberries!). Klingons used to be as diverse as anyone else, making advancements in art, science, medicine. But then a movement to return to their brutal roots started and swept their worlds. Suddenly all the kids wanted to swing around blades and chant about honor and get super fucking drunk (my embellishments but it's probably not too far from the truth). Even by ENT it had reached the point where their knowledge was so pisspoor they were resorting to subterfuge and espionage to obtain new technologies. We're told their knowledge of medicine was always pretty shit, though. Historically wounded were left to fend for themselves or commit honorable suicide. Of course all the redundant organs help with survival.

Anyone got good space sector maps?

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>>94255276
A bunch have been shared here I think

>>94254279
I'd say they likely managed to eek out some scientists and lawyers and the like in the 24 century though, people in Orioon seem to have their dreams suppressed if they're a pirate but Klingons seem able to be celebrated scientists

>>94255613
I do like that the lawyer in DS9 parses his role as a warrior...in the courtroom. It's funny to me because when I watched the episode the first time for some reason I had a vague sense that he was in on the frameup, but on recent re-watch I'm convinced he's legitimately just doing his job as best he sees fit. I suppose it's because he's the defacto antagonist, plus he's kind of a smarmy bastard about it so it's easy to hate the guy. I guess he still could have been in on it. I mean we're well familiar with corruption among the Klingons and the Klingons who set the incident up could have taken no chances, but most likely he was just a guy doing his job. Rather like the guy who "defended" O'Brien. I mean he wasn't helping O'Brien's case any, but then that's not his function and he sure as fuck wanted out of the job. Kind of makes it sad, in a way, when he's stunned at the end convinced that his superiors will kill him - but no sense in feeling too much sympathy because you have to wonder how many people he helped his government railroad.

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>>94255958
>Klingon teacher
"I FIGHT IGNORANCE!"
>Klingon postman
"I FIGHT TARGS THAT GOT OFF THEIR LEASH!"
>Klingon plumber
"I FIGHT LEAKS AND ALSO DISHONORABLE BOWEL MOVEMENTS THAT CAUSE CLOGS!"
>Klingon dentist
"I FIGHT THE CAVITY CREEPS!"

How are The Lost Era novels? Just finished The Romulan War novels and looking to read something else before moving onto the next ENT books.

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>>94239369
I used the Cybermen as Borg stand-ins for the TOS era, albeit far lower-scale as they were confined to a single system and got nipped in the bud before they snowballed like the Borg did.

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>>94255276
Here's one of the templates I've used for my games. Get gimp and it's easy enough to add whatever details you need. For marking out claimed territories, if you use a brush tool with 50% hardness I find you get something approaching the Starcharts maps. Install an Lcars font, use the symbol ● liberally and you can't go too wrong.

>>94258617
The weirdest collab with the Borg has got to be the Borgtinels from the X-Men/TNG crossover. But then that had Wesley Crusher vs Kang the Conqueror, so weird was built right into the plot.

>>94258617
I kind of hate how seemingly unstoppable so many people in Doctor Who are, impossible to nip in the bud in a way that matters. Star Trek at least has defined limits on most of their guys

>>94261796
Last I recall the Cybermen had basically become Borg where they adapt to whatever you throw at them and become immune to it. Some episode that had Willow in it.

>>94261796
>>94262047
As pop culture congeals, everything is just going to copy each other until they're all interchangeable. Corporate AI will just accelerate this.
I blame Blizzard personally.

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>>94255276
If I ever do that TOS-era campaign I have planned, I'll be using this thing I put together, based on the Star Trek Star Charts and supposed to look like the map we saw in "Balance of Terror".

>>94262047
>some episode that had Willow in it.

god damn you Alyson Hannigan's giant ass in those tight dresses on Penn & Teller: Fool Us, stop standing in front of beloved actor Warwick Davis in my mind, it's really impeding my ability to remember episodes of shows

So any ideas for characters you want to play as? Personally I have had one stuck in my head for years, one I even used for STO, being a half-Risian science officer who, while accepting of her heritage, cringes when people use her heritage as an attempt to get jamaharon. She also has a mild fear of transporters due to an accident she witnessed.

>>94263084
This is great, anon. Nailed the style.

>>94266416
The real trick is figuring out what TOS-style Cardassians would have looked like with a TOS-style budget.

>>94268010
Gold skin with scale makeup rather than prosthetics. Maybe some big shoulder pads to imply they've got their neck arches.

>>94268032
Gold skin? Not gray?

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>>94268010
Jewel on the forehead and yellow contacts for snake like eyes. Maybe some painted scales around the eyes.

>>94268046
In TOS? Nobody is grey in TOS. Gold to imply lizardlike skin, as well as that they come from a warmer climate.

>>94268098
Hmm, good point. Wanna show off that color TV.

If the Klingons were the Russians, and the Romulans were the Chinese, who would the Cardassians be in the 1960s? Yugoslavia and maybe the Non-Aligned Movement generally? Franco's Spain?

>>94268130
Apartheid South Africa, actually, come to think of it.

>>94268098
I can see it. Maybe a bit of texturing to it. But how would their culture be compared to TNG era? It was in the 24th century that they became a military dictatorship. Before that they were all about art and culture, but how long was the bad period before things got so bad the military had to take over?

>>94268130
Per TNG/DS9, Cardassia wasn't a military dictatorship yet. The Central Command and Obsidian Order rose to power some time between 2280 and 2310. So you could play them as a nation on the brink of collapse. One of the African colonial states, maybe. But that might be a clumsy comparison seeing as they weren't enslaving anyone yet.
A South American republic on the brink of a revolution/coup.

>>94268010
I think in at least one of the books for STA 1e there is art of TOS era Cardassians, I just can't look it up right now because I'm at work.

>>94268158
Depends on a lot of factors. Italy was technically a winner of WWI, but the influenza pandemic plus economic crisis meant that Mussolini could take power in 1922, just four years after the end of the war.

Meanwhile the Weimar Republic in Germany, despite facing far harsher conditions initially than Italy did (being on the losing side of the war and all), managed to last for 15 years.

And then you've got Spain, which lost major colonial possessions to America in 1898, plus Cuba, which the Spanish didn't even think of as a colonial possession, just a disconnected part of Spain; losing Cuba was as painful to Spain psychologically as losing Valencia or Andalusia would have been. Yet the Civil War didn't break out until 1936.

>>94268258
That definitely looks like something plausible from a 60s TV budget.
Though give them gloves so makeup doesn't need to worry about the hands, and give the skin more of a sparkle, like they're using gold sparkle paint that will give the actor cancer in a couple decades.

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>>94268258
Maybe a hint of ancient Greece in the dress? For some reason, considering how much TOS aped human history with Klingons being like Spartans, Romulans being like Romans, etc., I imagine pre-dictatorship Cardassia with the art and culture being like Athens.

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>>94268314 >>94268317
Hang on, now with less horrifyingly deformities.

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I assure you, she's quite fertile.

>>94268564
I'd keep her warm any day of the week.

>>94268323 >>94268564
Now the trick is figuring out what a TOS-era Cardassian ship might have looked like. A quick Google search yields surprisingly little of anything meant to match up with the '60s aesthetic.

>>94268743
It shouldn't be too hard, their ships are rather basic shapes. Take some Border Wars era ships and simplify and round out the designs. Doubt you'd need more than one basic ships to use for a few episodes. Maybe make it a bit more fancy, rather than militaristic.

>>94268806
Well the main thing is figuring out how to stick nacelles onto a Cardassian ship and still have it look like a Cardassian ship. The TOS era was pretty firm about nacelles being a thing, given their presence on the Warbird and the D7. Also it'd be some shade of gray rather than yellow.

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>>94268858
Put them on the long hull, behind the front. Maybe reduce the size of the front. To make the nacelles more vulnerable and the ship less warlike. When the military takes over, they can redesign their ships to be more streamlined and the nacelles more protected, giving us the TNG designs.

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>>94268858
>Well the main thing is figuring out how to stick nacelles onto a Cardassian ship and still have it look like a Cardassian ship
Bridge Commander had a hybrid Cardassian ship. I think the curved nacelles would work for a TOS design.

>>94268323
>>94268564
I feel we still need something done with the necks... Maybe just some makeup over where the ridges would be?

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>>94271359
High collar to give them a more hooded viper look.

>>94271510 >>94271359
I kept trying to get Bing to generate a high collar for that exact reason, but it wasn't cooperating. I do like the collar on >>94268564 though.

I have no actual artistic talent of my own, sadly.

>>94247509
> that future episode title

I feel like I can predict in advance the plot of that episode: In a callback to DS9, something happens to Tendi's sister and they have to emergency transfer the baby to someone else to carry it the rest of the way to labor. Like the infamous Kira pregnancy plotline. But because this is Lower Decks, something goes wrong later in the episode and they just have to keep transfering it over and over to different people in the midst of some other crises.

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>>94271613
To boldly MSPaint where no man has MSPainted before.

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>>94271695
nta but you guys are good people. Really enjoying seeing this discussion and people working together. But then I'm coming from several days of /co/ being absolute dogshit arguing about Star Trek being woke and a bunch of non-sequiturs about "the jews". I miss when you could actually discuss media there. Hopefully it's just election tourism.

>>94272039
I feel your pain, but 4chan never recovered from the last bout of election tourism 8 years ago. I don't see why the spell should break anytime soon.

>>94272039
Star Trek is the strangest hill for the right to die on. I will never grasp it. It's like watching a Commie argue about how the right ruining Atlas Shrugged

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>>94272176

>>94272201
To this day I see people upset about that scene as being hugely contrary to Roddenberry's vision and proof that DS9 was not true Star Trek, never realizing that the scene involves two non-Starfleet, non-Federation individuals. The person say it is also a criminal, habitual liar, abuser, etc. That isn't to say Quark can't make a point, just pointing out that he's about as far removed from a noble, decent, enlightened 24th century Starfleet officer as you can get.

Odo often has different value sets as others, too. One line I hated was how if it wasn't for Kira he'd happily be goosestepping alongside the other Founders. I mollify it a bit in my headcanon since Odo has some pre-programming involved. Admittedly that was just to return to his point of origin, eventually, but I think there's wiggle room such as he's mentioned that his strong sense of justice is him expressing his people's desire for order over chaos. Then there's the way the Female Changeling so easily wrapped him around whatever shape she took she wanted to wrap him around during the Dominion occupation of the station. It's that easy for a more experienced Changeling to flip some switches in a younger Changeling's head and alter their values. It took learning about Kira's scheduled execution to knock some sense back into him.

>>94272483
Even if they were Starfleet officers, even Picard would see that having a personal issue hinder the war effort would be out of line. On multiple occasions he has reprimanded his crew for letting personal issues get in the way of their duties, even if he feels for their personal struggles.

>>94271647
I dont think this will happen but this is a hilarious idea

>>94268743
Speaking of this, we need more progression in ship designs, it feels like alien ships are less interesting than starfleet ones

>>94272575
You raise a good point about Picard. TNG Picard, at least, would surely be understanding but knows you don't have to agree with the fantastic racism to realize there's a time and a place and right now it is likely to increase tension and lead to confrontations that would just make everything worse. Man, in so many ways Picard had it easier. He just had to worry about the Prime Directive but generally knew how far to push things and still have Starfleet back him up. Sisko had to deal with damn dirty politics.

Hard to say who had it easiest. Archer was pre-Prime Directive but still managed to cock things up. Janeway demanded they follow the PD but since she was basically The Law in that quadrant she abused the fuck out of it wherever she wanted.

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>>94268912
That's pretty neat, though I think if we're being honest with TOS the ship would probably just look like a blob of light. Curse their low budget.

I will say congrats to LD and SNW for bringing back the spin to Orion ships.

>>94247157
oh it's the animated TOS reference, okay that gets more traction.

>>94239369
I know there was a TOS/Transformers comic - I personally didn't care for it too much since I'm not much attached to TOS - but how do you anons think other Trek series would react to meeting the Transformers?

I like to imagine that G1 Optimus would probably be okay with TNG Picard but aghast at Janeway, although Bayformers Prime and Janeway would amass quite the face collection, for example.

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>>94273505
Odds are near 98% that within five years Section 31 will try to build their own and wire a human mind to control it as their ultimate planetary pacification, er, I mean interplanetary peacekeeping unit. Of course it would be cheaper to find a Cybertronian, have them scan a useful mode, then lobotomize it THEN wire it into a person's brain.

>>94273505
Transformers meets TOS? They'd better have a scene like:

>Kirk faces down the Decepticons and starts laying down the paradox smack
>Megatron says, "Foolish flesh creature, we Decepticons are far beyond your simple-"
>Shockwave's head explodes
>".... Well shit."

>>94273897
Headmasters. Hmm. Hmm.

>>94273948
I don't think Shockwave shows up in it. Megatron, Soundwave, Starscream - the usual suspects.

>>94273948
This is why Megatron made Starscream second in command, and put Shockwave on guard duty.

>>94275874
We need more Trek Transformers

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>>94275874
>Kirk's Enterprise somehow has smaller tits than a standard male Transformer
Blasphemy.

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>>94273505
Wait. You're transporters only work at short range?
And they can't even go through TIME?! (intentionally...)

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>>94246507
Though Tendi getting back to the Ceritos really did mirror Boimler's brief Riker vacation, lasting only two episodes before she is back on the Cerritos, it's nice that her sister wasn't secretly manipulating her or some other nefarious shit. Also I'm weirdly glad they had different tones of green for the skin color without there being some kind of Aenar offshoot situation or a backwards handwave due to different production values between appearances, though nothing will explain what STD did to the Ferengi. I like it when they take the time to make an alien race have as much variety as humanity. It's a nice touch.

>>94281127
I think the Discovery Ferengi is likely a hybrid

>>94281266
Has been confirmed to be a fully ferengi individual

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>>94281127
>her sister wasn't secretly manipulating her
I guess I have already forgotten the previous season, but what WAS her motivation, then? Or D'Vana's, for that matter? It felt like D'Vana was going undercover, with D'Erika having her own plans. But... neither was true?

>>94246507
>>94241484
>Orion women have actual fucking super powers to control their BIG BUFF men to do anything.
>Have them do all the Really dangerous stuff because yeah, who the fuck else would do the Dangerous stuff but all the BIG BUFF men
> The show could have played on that but doesn't

Can someone just delete Star Trek from reality?

>>94282135
She certainly wanted her sister back, and was definitely crappy when neglecting to mention the quality of the ship they were loaning Starfleet. I suppose the ship could be seen as typical pirate deception. I mean they aren't going to play straight with the space cops, right? They were still truthful to the letter of the deal.

But her sister trusted Tendi enough to honor the deal and return to Orion. I think she also realized how different her sister was and how unhappy. Starfleet had left a mark on her. Tendi was still able to bring in the booty (ha!) as a pirate but her thinking and reasoning was very Starfleet. Given no one blamed her regardless for what happened with the race they were honestly willing to let her go back to her life in Starfleet. And that in turn paid off for them. Not sure how much cash they lost, but acquiring an entire post scarcity planets load of formerly precious jewels and metals has got to set them near to where they were, if not far beyond.

I'm curious that Tendi's pirate crew were expressing interest in pursuits beyond piracy. I assume they are not near done with Orion yet.

Speaking of LD, is anyone else curious about the line regarding spatial anomalies popping up more than statistics suggests they should? Is that just a line about how Starfleet vessels can't have an ensign fart without hitting a freaky spatial rift or is that a hint at something weird going on with the fabric of space?

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>>94282215
I thought the revelation in ENT was to show it was deception. The females really run the show as the secret power. Which in turn was to try to account for that weird bit about Pike once fantasizing about going back to the farm to raise green animal women (I'm joking by combining a few things, but it's bad either way). Especially when TOS showed us that Orion females were not mere animals, albeit via a batshit crazy example.

And also for what it's worth LD revealed not all female Orions have mind control pheromones, which is actually pretty fortunate since making all female orions mind controllers against mean who cause women to suffer migraines and other issues. I really wish they'd revealed those three in ENT were modified in some way to make them more effective. Still you take what you can get.

And, hey, if an entire (small) crew of female Orion pirates upsets you they also had an entire (small) grew of blue male Orions pirates.

I would have preferred it if the piracy and pheromones were both a syndicate thing instead of making piracy the "hat" of the entire Orion race.

>>94282414
I don't really come to expect anything from Lower Decks, I just watch it passively and hope to be pleasantly surprised occasionally

>>94282414
Piracy has been the Orion’s hat for decades now, Anon. LD didn’t make it that way. Instead it’s been showing that even though piracy is their hat, it doesn’t necessarily make individual Orions happy.

>>94282222
>they were honestly willing to let her go back to her life in Starfleet
Thanks for the recap. Maybe I need to rewatch the episodes more closely, and not while drunk, as usual, LOL.

>spatial anomalies popping up more than statistics suggests they should?
They also had that part in the trailer, which I think means that it'll be a recurring theme this season, yes.

>>94283929
This. Let's hope they get better.

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>>94283929
No, piracy has been the hat of the Orion Syndicate specifically. Their first hat was for Orion women, a sexy little number as they harem dance for the pleasure of pinkskin men. That is NOT the same as making it the hat of the entire species, because we simply haven't seen their homeworld or their colonies. Hell, in DS9 we saw the Orion Syndicate but the members of the group O'Brien infiltrated were mostly human! When LD began it seemed, per the holodeck scene Tendi requested, that our first glimpse of Orion civilian life showed no hint of piracy or brutal industrial hellhole like the slave station we saw in ENT, but later on Tendi had that line, "And for your information, many Orions haven't been pirates for over five years!" They've been running the piracy bit to the cutlass hilt every since.

There was no reason to make the Orion Syndicate the de facto government of the Orions with the entire species revolving around piracy. Why can't they just be a powerful criminal organization that began in Orion space but spread to many different worlds beyond their borders? Alas, it was not to be.

>>94286613
>There was no reason to make the Orion Syndicate the de facto government of the Orions with the entire species revolving around piracy.
It might not be the de facto government so much as the government as it pertains to only the pirates and their families. Give it time, the Orions will come around and realize piracy just isn't it for most of them anymore (thus why so many of those pirates working for Tendi were trying to be super violent with her since they assumed that the "mistress of the winter constellations" was SO violent it gave her an out and they are wanting that out themselves).

Tendi is just the Orion's Nog, no need to overthink it.

>>94288251
She doesn't want to end up like her father?

>>94288251
No need to oversimplify it either. The first episodes of the season show us that even the other pirates have been anxious for another way of life, they just don't think they have any opportunity because it won't be allowed.

Nog wasn't shown as a source of inspiration for the changes we later saw on Ferengi society. That was actually his grandmoogie via the aging and mentally unwell Zek. Rom, of course, would later build off of this and we've now seen the Ferengi taking their first steps towards joining the Federation.

>>94288467
Really impressive how things changed during the show's run. Some of the non-main characters got the biggest character arcs. I like how both father and son both decide to change their lot in life with even Rom realizing that he wasn't happy just standing in Quark's shadow waiting for his brother to die. What a turn of fate that Rom would finally acquire the bar only to gift it back as he assumes the role of the Grand Nagus.

>>94288867
All hail Keldar the Lobeless. If he wasn't such a failure, who knows how things would have turned out.

Picked up Captain's Log. Any tips?

>>94289187
>touching poo
Ew... Put it down and wash your hands.

>>94289187
Just follow the prompts and have fun, anon. Also we know you're doing for lewds, but that's fine, just know someone will need to clean up the mess when you're done.

New episode was good, a few things I don't buy in the Boimler plot but it's interesting to see them play around again with the idea of what Admirals even do in Starfleet.

>>94289187
I only got to the character making stage but it was super fun. I don't remember anything that didn't get sorted by just going through the process as presented. I think the only thing it lacked was modern ships which sucked as someone that wanted to use LD/PRO ships with stats

>>94289611
My wife and I are too pulled thin on work for weekly time commitments and without me running games, nobody does. So we're trying to find ways to play that don't hit on a weekly schedule. We're going to see about piloting the same character to learn the ropes, then do some duo games with a fun cast.
Captain and number one feels like an obvious choice, but it also means those characters could never away mission together.
On the other hand, that could be a good chance to expand the cast of the ship. I'll have to read through the book and understand the logistics more.

>>94291869
>My wife and I are too pulled thin on work for weekly time commitments and without me running games
Fuck modern capitalism, they have played us for absolute fools

New season ain't grabbing me, so far. I get a sort of STO vibe off of this alternate timeline business they seem to be getting into.
Also it's the end of October and Into the Unknown is still marked as preorder so I don't know what the fuck Wizkids are playing at.

>>94255958
>I do like that the lawyer in DS9 parses his role as a warrior...in the courtroom.
I don't. It's really hamfisted and a poor way to expand Klingon culture. I liked how Enterprise revealed that they're dominated by the warrior caste politically.

>>94288251
Nog was the son of an absolute loser; Tendi is basically a princess.

I actually liked this episode for expanding the lore. The Cosmic Duchess is a great setting for people sick of Risa.

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Starfleet would love a teeny tiny itsy bitsy little starship.
And Starfleet crew.
I'm sure such a problem like getting them home will take time.
(Look at Prodigy, look at Voyager.)
But I am sure they could keep them occupied.

>>94286613
We are seeing Orion life through the lens of a crime family, of course we're going to see the crime. There's no real indication that the entire planet is this way

>>94282222
As per the reveal in episode 3, definitely the season arc now. Also explains the Harry Kim's from the trailer. My guess is either the next episode or episode 5

What Trek game systems are the easiest to learn? I'm interested in running a one shot this weekend.

>>94302147
This weekend? I’d maybe go with Lasers and Feelings, it’s simple and it’s free. But if you want something official, STA is your best bet.

>>94246273
duelling wasn't outlawed in the US until 16 years after the fax machine was invented

>>94282215
why would you send the people you know are susceptible to mind control and need constant direction to fight your wars and do your delicate stuff

>>94281457
yeah but you're a fully human individual and you don't look either like Homo heidelbergensis or the majority of other humans alive today, or the archaic humans you probably carry a few leftover genes from passed over by interbreeding with H Sapiens

Star Trek gets around racial politics nonsense in offshoot species by the expedient of simply pushing the others off to another planet when they start to look very different (and leaving a range of possible appearances for those that remain, just as with humans)

with this particular Ferengi there's a couple of ways you can go - the Voyager explanation (holo-imaging was in its infancy compared to now) that means any pre-Discovery 32nd century Ferengi is simply lower resolution; or the Daniels explanation, that Daniels is a human man from the 32nd century but also "more or less"

you don't know enough about Daniel's genetics to know what genes he got from what sources, but he's clearly human in both appearance and mannerism; Jake Sisko is clearly human despite being 1/4 worm god

likewise this Ferengi (who being in Starfleet is quite un-Ferengi in many ways) may simply have Dopterian or Vulcan genetics somewhere in the distant past, or for that matter could exhibit deliberate cosmetic modification or be the only Ferengi we've ever seen who isn't walking around with a chub-on

as far as the facial wrinkles go, we've probably seen wrinklier Ferengi

>>94304218
>duelling wasn't outlawed in the US until 16 years after the fax machine was invented
oh well that’s alright then. This lazy, overused writing crutch is good now because WASPs could technically blow each other’s brains out with revolvers until the late 1800s. But seeing as we disagree, why don’t we settle this in a civilised manner. The first one to find the Jewel of Gom’Juut in the Maw of Despair and return it to the Judge-Monarch is right.

>>94246273
>>94304218
>>94306542
Guys you're missing the real reason trial by combat is featured so much

It's because Lower Decks sucks

>>94307791
Fair.

>>94298840
But ENT pretty much did the same thing with the Klingon lawyer at court. ENT wasn't just political domination, it was domination of their entire damn culture:

>KOLOS: My father was a teacher. My mother, a biologist at the university. They encouraged me to take up the law. Now all young people want to do is take up weapons as soon as they can hold them. They're told there's honour in victory, any victory. What honour is there in a victory over a weaker opponent? Had Duras destroyed that ship he would have been lauded as a hero of the Empire for murdering helpless refugees. We were a great society not so long ago, when honour was earned through integrity and acts of true courage, not senseless bloodshed.

You're literally praising them for doing what you're condemning.

>>94301283
>There's no real indication that the entire planet is this way
Except the way everyone talks about them? Even Tendi, a non-traditional Orion who got away from the pirate life, admits that many Orions haven't been pirates...in the last five years. At the end of the second episode this season Captain Freeman even said she considered the arrangement a way to improve relations. That certainly suggests it would improve relations with the Orions as a whole and not currying favor with a criminal org.

>>94307791
>It's because Lower Decks sucks
To prove that you'll have to fight me in a trial by combat.

>>94309321
I dint think so, I think Freeman sees value in furthering relations with a high ranking family that has a lot of pull on Orion. Im not saying the pirate stuff isnt a big part of their culture, but I dont think it's presented as everything. Even Tendi's crew is speaking as something they can get out of to persue what they really love, and Tendo tells them they can just leave if they want.

>>94309641
I mean it would be a high ranking syndicate family. Not sure how Starfleet would view it if they were enriching a disgraced pirate faction if it weren't tied to the government, as in having someone who owes them as a player in Orion politics. But then I'm just guessing. I suppose whatever the writers wants to happen happens. Then we bitch about it here.

>>94307791
No, that doesn't track, Lower Decks is objectively good.

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>>94239369
>TQ
Pic related was in a game along with Gary Seven. Due to her eyebrows she was revealed to be an undercover Vulcan, however some in the group (myself included) suspect she is actually a Romulan agent. Unfortunately we never found out because we haven't gotten back together to finish the story in, shit, almost a year now. That fucking sucks.

Whatever, I'm still saying she's a Romulan. Way too emotive to be Vulcan, even if it was pre-ENT.

>>94311276
Well, in S4 it made sense for them to make inroads with a high ranking Syndicate family given apparently, not much progress has been made with Orions before. But now that the Tendi's are somewhat disgraced, I think it's even better that the Federation have a relationship with them so that when they do come out of the hole, they remember who helped them there. If the Mistress of the Winter Constellations tell them they need to ally with the Federation during a crisis, a lot of people will be on board.

Also, for a somewhat nobody ship, being the origin of furthering relationships with the Orions, discovering the increased might of the Pakleds and starting the talks for Ferenginar to join the Federation seem like pretty top tier diplomacy feats, even if some of it is luck. What they did at DS9 with the Karemma probably count for something.

>>94309641
>>94311332
Carol does appear to be a top tier diplomat, remember how she easily dealt with almost all the Mixtans except the asshole whose personal world was going to get polluted back in Cupid's Errand Arrow?

>>94311282
I wouldn't go that far, and I say that as someone who appreciates the show and doesn't know what nu Trek I'll consoom now that it and PRO are toast. I'm sure it's jarring for some people, and others it just rubs the wrong way. The quadrant is big enough for different opinions and tastes.

I'll be honest, I didn't think I'd like it when it first aired. I figured there was no way it could make sense as canon. However once I watched it I realized it's basically what you'd get if all the wacky episodes from the old days were the norm. O'Brien and Bashir stuck to a wall leading up to Worf's wedding. Tucker and Malcolm left in their underclothing by Risa's local whores. Combine the two and we've got Worf being such a Klingcel he fucks up the sexy vacation of everyone on Risa, but Risa won't prosecute because if being that much of a prig is what gets him off it's technically okay by their planet's standards. Any episode dealing heavily with the Ferengi (the earliest ones being comedic by mistake).

>>94311377
She also did pretty good with the Pakleds (better than most could manage in that insanity) and the Ferengi. Also a pretty good job with the Gamma Quadrant negotiations given no chance to pre-prep.

>>94311332
For me what made it seem that way was House Tendi already being the fifth largest but just going through a merger with another powerful house via marriage. Also the expression Tendi had at the end of the episode could be said to imply an "everything is going according to plan" moment. Maybe that even was the plan pre-cancellation. I can't say. I hope they at least end with more Orions being allowed to pursue their own path in life. That, to me, is what suggests piracy is basically the biggest thing in Orion space, but I'll concede it could just be that they are members of families within House Tendi so what keeps them in the life is a familial obligation.

>>94311377
Yeah, even back in S1 she was being pulled in to assist with diplomatic issues that apparently Galaxy tier ships couldnt solve, assuming the level of prestige of the Parliament. Really makes sense hin hindsight (just like how Tendi as the Cleaner makes sense in hindsight)

>>94311437
I think it's a fair take. I do like that there was seemingly no issues from her family with her leaving, and that the only thing that might have affected her chances in Starfleet was Federation prejudice against Orions. Then again, what Tendi is able to do in House Tendi and what your average jane is able to do is probably different.

The section 31 movie looks so fucking bad holy shit

>>94306542
the major railways of Britain and Europe still in use today were pretty much laid down 20-40 years before dueling was outlawed in the US

in france it had been outlawed for hundreds of years, which makes france, not the US, the Federation

>>94316749
It's hard to imagine someone ever thought this was a good idea. I'd say the bright side is S31 is so tarnished by this point no one will want to use it again for years to come ... but I know that's not true. On /co/ someone was praising the new partnership with Skydance as somehow something that will solve all the problems. Kurtz will be out on his ass when is contract is up, LD will be de-canonized, STD too, all the nu crap will be swept under the rug with all that is woke and a new Gold Pressed Age shall descend upon us. Hands up who thinks THAT is likely to happen.

>>94317582
>will be swept under the rug with all that is woke
...Why are you a Star Trek fan?

>>94317594
I didn't give enough of a shit to ask him. It's /co/, anyway. The place used to be decent enough for some conversations about Comics and Cartoons but now it's just Bitching and Contrarianism. No longer /tv/-lite it's full on /tv/.

Makes me feel sad and old.

>>94316758
>which makes france, not the US, the Federation
Wait a second:
>Going to far away lands
>Boning the natives
>Having weird looking ships
I think we're on to something here.

>>94317669
True. I miss old /co/ (and when I say that I'm even saying how that board used to be 2 years ago, even since then it's devolved. I dont even go anymore).

>>94316749
I dont think Enterprise gets enough shit for making Section 31 be a thing that was around since the beginning of Starfleet. It's ground Zero for a lot of things that people dont talk about anymore actually and just focus on Discovery doing them

>>94322256
I think ENT's Section 31 was workable, because my interpretation was that S31 was basically a conspiracy that faded away and got resurrected later on. Like, the first S31 disbanded after the formation of the United Federation of Planets. The next one was during the Klingon War. And then Wolf 359 brought it back again.

>>94322298
I don’t know lads, I’d maybe name my super secret, clandestine intelligence agency something other than CIA 3: The Return Again

>>94322298
I agree that's a good interpretation, but it did open the door for the organization to exist in any era now because that's the nature of how Trek shows use past lore. Exelsior shows up in a BG shot in the Dominion War? Now there's lore about the Federation using 200 year old ships for this or that reason.

>>94322256
>I miss old /co/ (and when I say that I'm even saying how that board used to be 2 years ago
It does seem to have gotten especially the last few years. I would have thought the running down of the MCU would have helped at least a bit, since so many people used to blame live action for the glut of /tv/ tourists.

>>94322298
I never had a problem with ENT having Section 31. Maybe I'd just gotten a bit disillusioned by the end of their run. Does it make sense that Archer would be their at the founding of the Federation and yet tolerate Section 31's existence? Well, he IS Archer. That'd be another in a long line of weird decisions. But then it he does eventually become Future Guy it makes more sense.

>>94322298
>>94326994
I didn't have a problem with a shadowy cabal organization in Enterprise because it would've made even more sense for it to exist at that point in Earth's history with all the stuff going on. You had Earth leadership openly chafing against the Vulcans, all the interspecies conflicts they suddenly got entangled with, the fucking Xindi, and it culminates in the Terra Prime conspiracy. Perfectly reasonable that there would still be a group that wanted to make sure Earth's interests were quietly protected, and that their sphere of interest would expand to the Federation writ large over the centuries.
But it was dumb lazy memberberry idiocy actually calling it Section 31, and made it obvious there was no intent to do anything interesting with them beyond "hey look it's that thing from one of the good shows you liked, please stop treating us as an embarrassment!"

>>94322298
Section 31 should have never existed. It should have been a psyop by Sloan on Bashir, because Bashir was an arrogant jackass who was supremely confident the Federation could never be the badguys.

Sloan is just another Starfleet Intelligence spook.

>>94326994
>Does it make sense that Archer would be their at the founding of the Federation and yet tolerate Section 31's existence?

Yeah, kind of. If he thought that the Federation would sweep away that kind of thing, the way First Contact led to the massive social changes on Earth, which Archer was still living through and with the effects of four years into his mission. He was after all ever optimistic, even taking on formal first contact with the Xindi to find a way to save Earth instead of crashing Enterprise into the Xindi weapon at warp one and hoping it either bankrupted the Xindi economy or Shran was watching and managed to get a message back to Earth to send the other ships out fast.

>That'd be another in a long line of weird decisions. But then it he does eventually become Future Guy it makes more sense.

I never liked that possibility. Future Guy was a very vague character, intentionally so, but he was also like Mean Archer dragging people to the airlock and threatening to space them. Plus it then becomes possible that you have an Archer vs Archer fight where one of them wins and the other one ceases to exist. Much more of a Smallville plot, or maybe a high-concept X-Files monster of the week.

>>94327320
Future Guy being Archer is, no doubt, something that is genuinely believed (I vaguely recall it back in the day) however it's like Insaneway where it's achieved memetic status, and sure there's a TON of questionable shit that happened that can support it. And if we want to give him the benefit of a doubt a lot of that was the fault of the damn Temporal Cold War and Xindi nonsense. He wound up a broken man by the end.

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What are your thoughts on Kovich

>>94330236
A trashy cash in on a previous established character and lore by series with half the talent of the others.

>>94330236
Didn't care for him. Of the 3 major 32c authority figures he's the most consistently annoying. Vance had his moments and Rillak was boring at worst, but Kovich is like a culmination of every wrong turn Trek has taken in the past 30 years.I suppose it fits that he ends up being Agent Daniels because the Temporal Cold War sucked too.

>>94330236
makes sense, better than the old man makeup they put on Daniels in ENT; he did also out-smug Giorgiou when they met, which is very Daniels


still waiting for T'Pol to show up in SNW

>>94314331
Add Pulaski and you'd have a hat trick

>>94327204
This.

>>94331120
Does it count as a cash in if they didnt tie him to the old person until the end?

>>94332347
TPol is showing up in this season of Lower Decks before SNW mark my words

>>94334079
>TPol is showing up in this season of Lower Decks before SNW mark my words
We'll see.

>>94334079
>>94335606
Blalock seems to have fully left acting behind. I would be supremely surprised if she came back, even for a voice cameo.

>>94336566
Could just be a background appearance or something that doesn't require speaking.

>>94335606
>>94336566
If she just doesn't want to do it then we won't see T'Pol, which would be a shame, but it's not like she actually needs to act. Actually she'd have to do more acting for a voice part vs doing a few live appearances as a snarky old vulcan.

>>94336566
You could have said the same thing about bringing back Sonya Gomez or Sito Jaxa, yet they pulled it off somehow.

>>94337608
I swear to god if I woke up tomorrow a billionaire I'd offer stupid money to Jolene Blalock to play T'Pol in a flight-sim shuttlepod with me all day

like not even a sex thing, just two idiots cosplaying

then i'd throw some people out of helicopters the next day

>>94336566
>>94337633
Right, this show has had multiple people that have left acting, it's not out of the question

>>94333250
She really is the perfect third here

I guess I always assumed that the "blood" in blood wine was figurative.

>>94342652
What do you think Rokeg Blood Pie is made of?

I think Lower Decks lowkey does Klingon stuff the best, you just dont notice because we dont get it as often as Orion or Vulcan stuff

>>94342846
Agreed. The way they handle the Klingons is more DS9 than any of the other new series could ever hope and it works.

>>94342662
rokeg

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>>94342953
Possibly the best screenshot in the entire show

>>94330236
I stopped watching Discovery after the 4th season but that one interrogation scene gave me whiplash because it was so inexplicably good compared to the entire rest of the series.

>>94327204
I don't get this. Doesn't that just take what Section 31 is, minus the secrecy bit, and turn all of Starfleet Intelligence into that? How is that a viable solution? I'll grant you Starfleet already does a lot of skeezy shit, like their illegal cloaking program, but is it better to think rogue admirals happen all the time anyway or that there might be a secret corrupting force within Starfleet? I can honestly see people appreciating the excuse, but I can also see people hating the excuse. More power to both of them, as far as I'm concerned.

Personally I like Section 31, but within reason. You really need smart writers to handle it well. Conceptually it's fine, imo. Their explanation for their existence makes sense. The galaxy is a nasty place, full of nasty people, so someone has to be just as nasty if not more so. They do the awful deeds that break all the values of the Federation so that no one else has to. The thing is we can debate whether or not that's even true, but it's how they justify themselves. Unfortunately since then it's just been hamfisted largely mustache twirling villainy with a Starfleet veneer painted on. Or rather, that they are Starfleet with a Section 31 veneer painted over them, in deep deep black paint.

It's easy to imagine why Section 31 exists. The Klingons were nasty, brutal warriors, and could be sneaky as shit in the TOS days. The Romulans are less brutal but far, far sneakier. Those two alone show why some people believe they need to go dark to survive, but there's no shortage of nasties. The Orions, the Tholians, the Breen, the Tzenkethi, the Ferengi - and those are just the local threats. Other Quadrants are full of them too.

It really worked in DS9 because was an exploration of the deeds done in the dark made with the good intentions used to pave the way to hell. Sisko had to deal with that on more than one occasion, but never more poignantly than getting the Romulans into the war against the Dominion.

>>94331166
>>94332347
I don't know. It's hard to imagine Daniels actually giving up on time travel. This is a man who once accidentally whoopsy daisied the entire Federation into non-existence by bringing Archer to the future, but afterward he KEPT fucking with time. It's hard to imagine what would make him agree to give that up. You show him The Burn and the first words out of his mouth would be, "Let me go back and see what happened, I bet it was a Xindi Cabal or Future Guy trying to take us out of the equation!" I can't even imagine how they'd get everyone to outlaw that, any more than we'd be able to get every country on Earth to outlaw nukes. It's too useful (and has peaceful functions as well). How can you get everyone in every quadrant to agree not to use it, or develop it in secret? You can't! Even worse, every faction would know the person who saves their time tech in secret will have ultimate power to reshape time, thus none of them should do it. Imagine a new Temporal War only this time the aggressor has no opposition because everyone else junked their time tech. And it doesn't even need to be a government! A rogue group could do it in secret to remake history to their designs. No, a total ban makes as much sense as it does getting everyone to agree to ban their use of robotics. It's an idea that shouldn't even work on paper. Not sure why they felt they could use the same plot excuse twice in a row.

>>94327204
>>94343858
My personal opinion (so please feel free to utterly disregard) is that Starfleet should not be the be-all and end-all of the Federation, just a single (admittedly powerful) entity and organisation within it that is headquartered on Earth and thus Humanity is mostly used for. So Starfleet Intelligence should be Military Intelligence. There should be a separate, official 'Federation Intelligence Agency' based on either Andor or Tellar, and 'Section 31' should be yet another (secret) Federation agency that has nothing officially to do with either Starfleet or the FIA.

The Federation is the Body. Starfleet may be the Federation's Strongest Arm, but it's also just one of the many appendages that the Federation should have.

>>94343897
I always thought that the ban undoubtedly had standby tech allowances and extensive time monitoring allowed by both sides regardless of the ban. The lower decks thong where observers have been under funded presumably due to the ban to the point where even dealing with natural timetravel threats is a challenging is interesting.

>>94343897
Well, time travel doesn't make a whole lot of sense to begin with, and they clearly worked it all out so that from some point in the 31st century no more time travel would be permitted by those factions; they probably still have time agents but only those who exist under multi-government scrutiny to deal with non-treaty factions using time travel to affect treaty factions.

But Daniels pretty much turns to camera and says "guys we're sorry about the time travel plot we don't do that any more". So from a professional standpoint he's Starfleet and has to follow the rules (we don't know whether to the letter or not because we never really saw that much of him in his element) and from a personal standpoint the dude did get turned into a time wrecked guy for a while and then died of it.

Plus if the 31st century time agents are the TNG of time travel starfleet then everything up to the TNG era are like the ENT of time travel starfleet where they're just taking first steps, and the 29th century time travel starfleet are like the Jim Kirk Ship of time travel starfleet, just doing crazy shit because they can and laughing about it. THOSE guys would definitely ignore the accords but the TNG-like guys? and you can bet the Siskos of that era all got taken out by the Garaks and/or Tal'Shiars or whatever in the first seconds of the hot temporal war.

This week's LD was fun. Migleemo's people are cool.
For some reason I wonder how avian people relations are. Klowahkans, Areore, Aurelians, Skorr... I guess they must all see each other as rubber-forehead aliens?

>>94344750
Was this the first time the name of his species was mentioned or was I just not paying attention? That's way too good a "getting crap past the radar" moment for me to have missed.

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>>94344762
First time, yup.
Also the first time we see any members of his species other than his mom.

>>94327204
They should have just been a part of Starfleet Intelligence that went off the reservation like Cerberus was in the first game.

>>94344032
LD has KIND of done that, to an extent, showing us other avenues for people to explore such as the outpost scientists, the collectors, the archaeologists guild. I wish there was a mercantile or cargo hauler association or something similar. Of course the kicker is with the archaeologists guild Mariner wanted to know who was funding it. You think the Federation would support that kind of operation. I guess they prefer to rely on Starfleet and the others just have to Vash it or get Picard to sugar daddy your digs (which might also be the Vash method).

>>94344766
>Wren in Black
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVAePIyC4kQ

>>94344219
Honestly? I figured that given the nature of STD it did not. I err on the side of the most hamfisted approach as being the one they intend. Hence the ban on synthetics not even allowing positronic research or medical treatments, especially given DS9 had straight up replacing bits of the human brain with positronics. Nevermind that the entire idea that Riker's boy would have required treatment with a positronic matrix (implication being not even a full brain and certainly nothing that needed to be sentient or installed in a body) in order to cure his silicon based infection.

Such a POS storyline, I have no idea what they were thinking. As if Riker and Troi couldn't have done a little Insurrecting in order to obtain time with a positronic matrix to cure their kid. You know Geordi would have helped. He had to have loathed the ban.

>>94345166
>DS9 had straight up replacing bits of the human brain with positronics

i mean

if you think about it progressively replacing more and more of the brain of a senior diplomat during negotiations with an enemy state probably wasn't the best look for a Federation doctor

it's kind of out there with the mad scientist stuff

>>94322256
It makes more sense that Section 31 began as all the crazy ecoterrorists, warmongers, and 21st century normies with all their warts intact that the humans who would found the Federation were too bleeding heart to condemn when through their acts of brutality, they kind of saved the planet. Otherwise, they would had gone extinct by TNG.

>>94344750
>Klowahkans
It sounds far too much like cloaca for my tastes

>>94345312
Starfleet officers can do some pretty wild things for The Mission, but more to the point Bashir felt he was actually helping his patient with all he had that would work. The real problem was the people pushing Bareil to complete his work even though Bashir said he need to rest and recover. They pushed it and it did more and more damage until while Bashir could, and would, replace more he felt the essential part of the man was being lost and advised, as strongly as he could, stopping things where they were.

I just don't get the sense that he personally was deciding to do this for peace, but I haven't seen the episode in some time. Was he even ordered to do it? I remember it was mostly Kira and Winn, and Winn lost interest the moment the deal was reached.

>>94345384
That's the joke

>>94345384
stop tasting cloacas

>>94345454
I'm aware, I still don't like it
>>94345457
Don't tell me how to live my life

>>94345466
most aliens have cloacas you know, it's a very efficient system

>>94344032
Too many people think of Starfleet and the Federation as one and the same. They're not.
It's like looking at life at a military base and saying that life there represents America.
Yes the soldiers there are American, and no they don't represent all there is to America.

Starfleet does exploration and defence, and serves as a medium for diplomacy and scientific research.
And only it's frontier exploring vessels needs to be jack of all trades.
Starfleet Command has no say over the Federation Council.
There are probably like half a dozen other branches of the Federation that because of the nature of the shows we never see.

I imagine some of them are:
The Federation Council and it's many governmental functions
The Bolian Bank managing the economy. Food and clothes may be free, but space station and colonies still cost resources.
A Federation Subspace Network, in charge of managing communication across trillions. Maybe they have their own Intelligence gathering.
Starfleet Intelligence might be the military branch the Federation Diplomatic Corps
A Colonial Development Authority, in charge of allocating planets and settlers, aiding and safeguarding their development
Or how about a Cultural Exchange Organization, in charge of streamlining the exchange of art, music and culture as a trade good, or blocking it from those where it would do harm.

Point is that there is more to the Federation than what we the audience can see. And that's by design.

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>>94345600
This anon is a true cloacan connoisseur.

>>94345674
But that's more or less entirely wrong, because the federation is a nightmare dictatorship and civilians are subject to random and massive starfleet interference at any time and fairly frequently.
>It's like looking at life at a military base and saying that life there represents America.
It's more like looking at life at a military base and saying that life there represents the USSR. Which it more or less does.

>>94317594
NTA, but I'm a Star Trek fan because, among other things, it always explicitly rejected the regressive identity politics that are foundational to wokeism. Star Trek presented a future where humanity's issues were largely solved and we were free to concentrate on higher pursuits like lecturing alien fuzzy-wuzzies on why their societies were wrong and they should do what we tell them instead or forcing evil computers to self-destruct with elementary logic. In TOS Uhura treats the notion she should be mightily offended by the N-word as borderline laughable because she's so far removed from the context in which it would have been offensive. The TNG era shows repeatedly demonstrate the Federation being tolerant, even indulgent of cultures and beliefs that are completely antithetical to their core values because, at the end of the day, they knew *they* were right and when you're secure in that knowledge you don't need to react with performative outrage or try to suppress your opposition through force or shame; you're confident you'll win the day by simply virtue of being correct, and that in the end people will come to agree.

The screeching, petty, brattish, petulant, juvenile, repressive, regressive bluehairs who pretend they're the real heirs of Star Trek were explicitly rejected by its core philosophy before they were even born, and you're never going to be able to lie big enough to stop that truth from outing.

>>94346067
I don’t think you understand what “woke” actually means other than a definition that you’ve invented to justify your reactionary hatred of people who don’t think the same way you do.

> The TNG era shows repeatedly demonstrate the Federation being tolerant, even indulgent of cultures and beliefs that are completely antithetical to their core values
Yeah, like that time Picard collapsed the economy and political relationship and culture of two less advanced worlds because he didn’t like the nature of their relationship. Wait, that’s not being tolerant or indulgent, hang on…

Oh! That time he wouldn’t let an alien species carry out justice according to their laws that had been unambiguously broken by Wesley…wait…

Oh, you must be referring to when Picard fucked up the prevalent societal order of Angel One or Ligon II or Argosia III….um…

That time he was offended by the religious beliefs of Ventax II and intervened in them?

>>94346067
if you think the core of Trek is TOS lecturing people they perceive themselves to be superior to then Star Trek already lost you by TNG. You acknowledge this contradiction by finding an excuse why it's still fine, but this contradiction then undermines your point about TOS, where half the show is forcing or shaming people into following the Federation's ideals.

>>94344750
I like that we're expanding the avian species in Star Trek even if it's entirely through animation. Felt like mammals and reptiles had the monopoly. Hell there may be more non corporeal races in trek than birds. Also glad they actually fleshed out Miglemoo's race right before the end because that was driving me crazy.

>>94346298
I think I understand what "woke" means perfectly well, despite wokeist attempts to turn it into a definitionless protean unword that can mean whatever they want in whatever way is most convenient to them at the time. Again: we see you, everyone sees you, and your smug self-righteousness is so repulsive you've managed to get a literal clown elected to the most powerful political office in the world because so many are so sick of being tone-policed and talked down to.

>>94346374
Oh fuck off you cretin, do I literally have to type ITS A JOKE WEEWOOWEEWOO ITS A JOKE either side to stop you sucking your frilly panties up into your butthole? I used the term "fuzzy-wuzzies" ffs.

>>94346611
>I think I understand what "woke" means perfectly well
You demonstrably do not, and you're the one that's changed is definition to one that suits your needs instead of using its actual definition:
"aware of and actively attentive to important societal facts and issues (especially issues of racial and social justice)."

>and your smug self-righteousness
I'm not the one who's changing definitions to justify my hatred.

>you've managed to get a literal clown elected
Mmn, no. Exit polling showed that the driving force of the 2024 election was the economy, not social issues. So not only are you changing the definition of words, you're also denying objective reality.

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>>94346611
yeah you're so cool and funny dude

>>94346298
>Yeah, like that time Picard collapsed the economy and political relationship and culture of two less advanced worlds because he didn’t like the nature of their relationship
I really wonder what the planet was like during the middle parts of the mural

>>94345674
What can we point to in canon that's definitely Federation but not Starfleet? All that comes to mind right now is the Federation News Network.

>>94346700
>What can we point to in canon that's definitely Federation but not Starfleet?
The Federation's diplomatic corps, and members like Lwaxana. They might work with Starfleet but they're not part of it.

>>94346719
Oh, the Daystrom Institute springs to mind as well.

Really, just read the novel Articles of the Federation. It's basically The West Wing in Star Trek.

>>94346700
>What can we point to in canon that's definitely Federation but not Starfleet?
Federation Naval Patrol. For those who like their ship in non-star form.

>>94346719
And of course Starfleet has its own diplomats they use. Reminds me of the comment above about the Archaeologists Guild. You'd think they'd have Federation support, as long as they actually behave like archaeologists and not wacky adventuresome treasure seekers/sell the shit they dig up for personal profit. Instead when we see archaeology done it's usually just Starfleet.

And that makes sense, in its way. We overwhelmingly get the Starfleet POV so they tend to be a swiss army knife organization. They do diplomacy, archaeology, tackle engineering projects, explore and catalogue deep space, and xenobiological studies, among many many others. It means the show has a very wide range of subjects it can tackle with the main characters, this is true. Still, I can see how organizationally it an be frustrating since it means our view of the Federation is basically de facto Starfleet. We know so very little about civilian life and how their cashless existence even functions. Hell, Modi didn't even give us a decent accounting until, what, the Beta Quadrant supplement?

I don't know if they fully account for things like outpost scientists. I just refer to them as a sort of organization since that's how LD treats them. I wonder how much firsthand exploration they even do and how much they just respond to Starfleet discoveries for longterm study and analysis. You know, until Starfleet has to be dispatched because nobody has received any reports in months and has to solve the mystery. But then I wouldn't put it past Starfleet to have remotely stationed science officers. That one episode where Geordi falls in love with a woman by listening to her logs, then finds out she's alive but maybe a murderer, then her dog tries to absorb him?

>>94348835
The episode with the murder pupper is interesting from a behind the scenes perspective. I'll just crib some shit from memory-alpha:

>With Colm Meaney (Miles O'Brien) and Rosalind Chao's (Keiko O'Brien) departure from the series to Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, TNG had lost its only married couple. It was hoped that this episode would show that marriage and serious relationships still existed in the 24th century. As Taylor observed, "We now portray the twenty-fourth century as being full of single people […] It seems to me that's not the comment we should be making – that marriage and serious relationships do survive into the twenty-fourth century."

A little reminder of the limitations where ships are full of single hotties with rock hard bodies in order to facilitate stories, but leave certain basic angles so untouched they actually worried people would think the Federation didn't have long term relationships, or that things such as marriage were just throwbacks to earlier eras done as exceptions to the norm?

>The writers struggled with creating a mystery that couldn't be solved by 24th century technology. Moore remembered, "We were at pains trying to make the murder mystery harder than it needed to be, so the script became very technobabble heavy." He added, "Technology had run amok on the show. People had gotten careless about establishing what devices like the tricorder could do, and we were stuck with that. Walk into a room with a tricorder and it could tell you who'd been in there, and what they'd done […] We were always trying to trip up the technology. It was just too powerful."

This one was fun, because it's very true and nice that they acknowledge it. You almost have to wonder why they bothered with scientists ta all, the tricorder could do basically anything and everything. With some jiggering you could even locate and open spatial portals with the damn thing.

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>>94346719
I guess I dont really count the diplomats but that makes sense

>>94346730
Daystrom though is definitely the kind of thing I was looking for, great example. I realize the best example of a civilian location in space are the things we see in Lower Decks, like The Dove, or Starbase 25

>>94349560
Alternatively I do like that member species in the Federation maintain their own fleets with their own missions. They don't put all their eggs in the Starfleet basket. The Vulcan High Command still operates its own science vessels, armored and armed enough to go toe-to-toe with a Klingon BoP and a Klingon armed Pakled ship. Yeah, they still needed T'Lyn's magic to save the day, but that a science vessel was that large and could survive so long was impressive enough.

>>94349705
I see people complain about the existence of these different fleets but yeah I totally get it. I dont think we need Starfleet to have the monopoly on Federation space exploration. Especially given the science is likely all being shared regardless. If someone wants to spend their time on a ship more curated to their comforts that's fine.

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>>94349890
I love it. A lot of these guys had their own little interstellar empires, makes sense they wouldn't sacrifice all of that to let Starfleet have all the fun. Besides it means that the sexy Vulcan ships are still in service.

>>94349890
Seems weird that people complain about something that adds depth and variation to the setting.

I personally think they don't go far enough with this sort of thing. 'The Federation doesn't have a military' is a big stated cornerstone, and I think it absolutely should technically be true... the Federation doesn't have A military; but perhaps of the constituent members Andor has a military, Bolarus has a military. Cait has a military, Delta has a military, Edos has a military, etc. If Starfleet it the US Navy, these guys are State Guard.

(This is also why I hate the 'Bajoran militia will/was be absorbed into Starfleet' discussion point. It absolutely should NOT have been, the two are very different services. Whilst it should absolutely have been opened up to use Bajoran militia knowledge, training and experience as a path for individuals wishing to transfer into Starfleet without going through a full academy process, you should not simply dump a planet's worth of Soldiers, Mall-cops and traumatised ex-child-soldiers into your primary exploration and response service and expect even the majority of them to float.)

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I found episode 3 to be pretty dull, but I'm glad they are back on the laugh track with 4.

PS: The painsticks can't hurt THAT bad... can they? I also always thought they'd feel more like burns, than electrocution.

>>94350493
The joke is that the guy in charge was being a dick because of his dead brother and intentionally interpreting the challenges to be something nobody could survive, with the last one being a catch-22 since a captain who would kill his subordinate purely for personal gain would be dishonorable.
If you want a serious explanation you could say that they were designed so that a captain needed to prove he had a loyal crew willing to back him up including voluntarily laying down their lives for him, but really it was just the guy being a dick.

Oh fuck >>>/tv/205480677

>>94350603
F

>>94350603
Damn, RIP

>>94350493
I actually found this recent episode to be more engaging than actually funny, though I mean that as a compliment. The Klingon stuff seems to always drop the jokes by the time the episode gets to something like >>94343073


>>94349929
Anything that means more fun Star Trek ships is worth it

>>94342953
It was nice that the Klingons in charge weren't corrupt assholes, well, beyond the one guy obviously but it was personal for him. Though he was clearly just a dick in general.

It's nice to see a bit of civilian life and Boimler still trying to, you know, grow his beard. Ma'ah still goes fucking hard, too. I also appreciate the nod towards Martok more humble beginnings. It kind of puts him in a better spot, in a way. He didn't just luck his way into a command by the circumstances (not saying he didn't earn it, but being made a second like that made his right of challenge Klingon legal). Having to fight his way back will probably do him a lot of good. In all I rather like the direction for the season thus far, especially T'lyn's extreme poker face expressions of friendship. I'm honestly surprised more people didn't waifu Tendi's pirate girl squad.

>>94346067
On the other hand, you can see how the Federation's acceptance of extremist ideologies anti-ethical to them ultimately bit them in the ass during the Cardassian Wars. They sacrificed planetloads of innocent people to try and prove their "point", only to create a new nation of ex-Federation citizens who distrust them rightfully for using them as glorified experiments before having to dismantle the Cardassian government with force anyway.

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>>94352934
>"Hey don't settle here."
>"What if I want to."
>"Hey so the planets I told you not to settle on don't actually belong to us."
>"WTF THIS IS ALL YOUR FAULT!!!"
Maquis were never in the right.

>>94353234
The Cardassian Union under Central Command was an illegitimate state. It had about as much a right to those planets as the Ekosians had a right to Zeon, and Kirk made the right call to coup the latter before the situation exploded in the way it did with the Cardassians.

>>94353452
The Cardassian Union was a dictatorship, but not an illegitimate state. It had interstellar recognition for one thing and the military power to (just about) back up its territorial claims for another. In some ways DS9 would have been better if it weren't about the Cardassians at all because of their portrayal in TNG setting them up as a kind of late-Soviet failed state but that was the feeling at the time, that there would continue to be superpowers even if they were failed states.

>>94353234
But there's some truth to this too. You feel for the Chakotay Planet in TNG because they've got generations of history on that planet and then this bullshit with Wesley means they never even get closure. You feel for the Aqueduct Planet because they've got generations of history - on a very difficult planet - and at best everything they've built will end up in a Garbage Monster Species museum or at worst dragged through an industrial replicator. It's not that staying there is the best decision or a smart decision or even a legitimate decision, it's that they have this history giving them pathos.

With the Maquis you're hearing stuff like "this is our hovel-cave, we've been living here eating this slop from the big processing machine that makes slop for five weeks, IT IS OUR HOME". They're always raw colonies, always angry at the material facts of the universe. They probably could live under Cardassians for a while - it's not like other species never have after all. But they want to fight for their hovel-caves and slop machine lives long after they could have returned to the Federation. They're much more like one of those failed human or near-human species colonies in TOS where the Enterprise turns up to find them living in an ironic deadlock with some bullshit or being preyed on by a machine labeled "This Machine Preys On You, Do Not Use" in some alien script nobody can read. Kirk would blow up their aqueducts and relocate them, not arm them.

>>94354957
>But they want to fight for their hovel-caves and slop machine lives long after they could have returned to the Federation
The Federation should support hovel-caves and slop machines. simple as.

Garak was right, even though he was being sarcastic and cruel. The Cardassians got everything that was coming to them. They were so upset that they couldn't be big swinging dicks on par with the Klingons, Romulans, and Federation that they signed up with the eugenicist space freak civilization that is known almost solely for how poorly it treats its client species. They then proceed to try to be big swinging dicks with their new masters and get horribly smacked down for it. This leads to them rising up in arms, and 'oh no we got genocided because we signed up with the empire that genocides you if you betray them, and then betrayed them'.

The worst part is Lower Decks (and in brief glimpses, Picard) make it clear that they learned nothing from this. They're right back to 'we want to be big swinging dicks' and acting like assholes to major powers that by all rights should exterminate them for never actually de-Space Nazi-fying. The Federation, Romulans, and Klingons really let them just go back to being Space Nazis because 'well, they suffered during the war, too'.

A few months ago, some Star Trek magic cards were posted, allegedly leaked from a future product. Would anyone have them saved? I can't find them with googling, which has me willing to believe they're real.

>>94356875
I know in STO the Cardassians are highly factional but the official government is inching its way towards Gederation membership

>>94356875
What did Lower Decks do with the Cardassians? All I remember is Mariner's holoprogram and a couple being part of Locarno's suckers.

Before they decided to connect Mariner directly to Sito Jaxa I thought it might have been nice if they did an episode featuring the Cardassian operative she helped get back home, reveal he survived the Dominion War and was now a key part of the rebuilding efforts.

>>94356875
>they signed up with the eugenicist space freak civilization

The Cardassian legitimate government of the time - the civilian government of the Detapa Council - did nothing of the sort. The Cardassians 'joining' the dominion was nothing less then a counter-coup by Gul Dukat and the former members of central command in revenge for the Central Command's own earlier ousting by the Depata council and dissident movement. The Detapa Council was dissolved permanently by Gul Dukat's new Dominion Government of Cardassian occupation, that's not something you would immediately do to an organisation that's willingly joined up with you.

>>94357563
DS9 really missed a trick not going for a thread through multiple seasons with the guys from the aqueduct planet being resettled, becoming Maquis, losing everything to the Cardassians/Dominion etc

it would have been more Continuity than anybody was ready for in 1992 (and I'm sure came up in discussions at the time but was nixed for that reason) but it would have been a lot more interesting than endless new Starfleet defectors to the Maquis; watching these guys fail over and over in real-time would have been a better indictment of the Federation's inability to fully protect its values (which is ultimately what DS9 is about)

bit grim tho

>>94311390
It's okay to be wrong, but you don't need to be pedantic about it. Once you get past the first couple episodes, its the best Trek we've had since Janeway frightened a fear elemental, which makes it objectively good.

>>94358083
DS9 was never about indicting the Federation. Testing them, to the fullest extent they could in ways TNG could not, but ultimately Federation values prevailed.

>>94358228
It's not an indictment to say a system is imperfect or explore its limitations.

>>94358373
But it isn't imperfect. There are no flaws as the Federations values prevailed.

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>>94358228
>but ultimately Federation values prevailed.
Eh...

The Federation won the Dominion War because of superior firepower and better command of tactics, strategy, and logistics. Its values were tested but it didn't win because of its values. Even Odo going with the Founders was more of a "win more" situation. By the time that happened the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Alliance was already poised to stand victorious over the Dominion.

Federation values prevailed not because of their inherent worth, but because the Federation had the firepower to back up those values.

Every time I watch the end of the Dominion War I can't help but compare it to - what else - the end of Babylon 5's Shadow War, which I'd argue was way, way, WAAAY more in-keeping with Star Trek's general motifs. As Lorien in that show said, that conflict was only going to end if Sheridan could "understand" his way to victory, not fight it.

I'd even argue that the Iconian War from STO ended in a more Star Trek-like fashion, because Admiral (You) is able to get the Iconians to stop fighting by figuring out why they're doing it, what's driven them to it, and presenting them with an alternative.

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YOU- THE ANON ATTEMPTING TO FORMULATE A SHITPOST RIGHT NOW...

Experience bij!

>>94358462
Having a bigger stick has never been against Federation values, only when and how to use it.
The firepower won the war, but it could only happen with the alliance building with the Klingons and Romulans (even if the latter was initiated by subterfuge, diplomacy kept it going several times), extending the olive branch to the Cardassians via the support of the resistance, and most importantly the doctor and the everyman giving their enemies the cure to prove they didn't want their enemies exterminated, only an end to hostilities.
DS9 was about putting the Federation in a situation where it had to go to war against an enemy that refused all peaceful solutions, and then exploring how Federation values would be preserved in the conduct of that war. The Federation wasn't perfect, but that's just being human. In the end, hope for a better more peaceful tomorrow won out over the alternative.

>>94358617
And yet I still maintain that Babylon 5 and Star Trek Online handled the basic premise better.

>>94358816
I'd argue they only did if you're looking at their respective endings in a vacuum, when DS9 spent the entirety of the war examining what the other two didn't.

>>94358921
You can make that argument about STO, maybe, but not Babylon 5. Looking at the philosophy and values involved in the Shadow War was the central premise of the show.

>>94358462
>the Federation had the firepower to back up those values.
lol, they actually didn't though. The federation won because the wormhole aliens took their side. Also because they got romulans and klingons (and eventually cardassians) to fight on the same side, because their "treaty at any cost" strategy was a hard counter to the dominion "divide and conquer" strategy. Also because they managed to foil a bunch of changeling infiltration plots (any one of which could have broken them if it had gone undiscovered, though we're also told that there were untold other plots that did go undiscovered, so there may be some element of luck in that). But mostly it's because the wormhole aliens took our side.

>>94358462
>the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Alliance was already poised to stand victorious over the Dominion.

In the ALPHA Quadrant.

I do not think this can be stressed to highly enough.

The full might of the the Federation-Klingon-Romulan Alliance - plus a late Face turn by the Cardassians - was needed merely to defeat the Dominion's EXPIDITIONARY force.

Had the Wormhole freely opened again, the Dominion would have swamped the quadrant with so much backlogged war machinery that they'd have pushed all the way to Romulus.

The Dominion's grip on the Gamma Quadrant was not loosened one iota. The 'right' to freely send exploration ships through the Wormhole into Gamma Dominion territory, the thing that started up the initial hostilities in the first place? Yeah, no. The Dominion may have had to get back out of Alpha, but their expanded Gamma borders remain secure in the aftermath.

>>94359150
Foiling a plot isn't exactly a triumph of values, Anon. If I'm a member of the FBI in the '60s and I uncover and expose a Soviet spy, it's not because Democracy and Capitalism has triumphed over Totalitarianism and Communism, it's just because my investigation skills were superior to their infiltration skills.

>>94359225
>Had the Wormhole freely opened again, the Dominion would have swamped the quadrant with so much backlogged war machinery that they'd have pushed all the way to Romulus.
And even if they couldn't, it would've only kicked the problem down the road a few decades until the Dominion sent the aforementioned war machinery the long way, conquering everything in between to set up an endless supply chain. The Federation needed to win the peace, not simply win the war, and that's why Bashir and O'Brien were the real heroes, not Sisko and Martok.

>>94359260
Yes, anon. The Romulan/klingon alliance is the triumph of values. Also Sisko talking to the wormhole aliens certainly seems like a triumph of values at the time but they sort of ruined that by making Sisko's mom a wormhole alien

>>94359322
>The Romulan/klingon alliance is the triumph of values
No, it's just militarily superior to the Dominion, as evidenced by the fact that relations between the three powers went back to status quo ante right afterwards, while meanwhile as >>94359225 pointed out the Dominion was free to continue acting exactly as it had been in its home territory. No one's values "triumphed".

>>94358423
If it isn't imperfect, why In The Pale Moonlight?

>>94359473
The fact that the alliance was possible is the triumph of values. If not for the federation's treaty-at-any-cost policy then the Dominion would have easily divided and conquered the alpha quadrant. Why are you playing dumb here?

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>>94358145
>you don't need to be pedantic about it

>>94359684
>The fact that the alliance was possible is the triumph of values
No, it's not. It's a convergence of interests, nothing more.

>treaty-at-any-cost policy
That's not a Federation value, it's just something that the Federation was willing to do because the stakes were high enough that they were willing to compromise their actual values.

>>94359732
You heard me, Bajoran Scum

>>94358816
Maybe you're memory is wrong, but Captain Sheridan and Admiral (You) were handed third ways out on a silver platter. Sisko didn't have that privilege, he had to do the best he can with what he had. He sold his soul to end a war. While that may have rejected Gene's ideal, it did in no way reject the Federation values we've seen up to that point and definitely not since then. It's just a different path, and to pretend like its a worse path is sheer naiveite.

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>>94359967
But captain, it would be wrong to save these intelligent people from illness and not let the cavemen pick over their bones.

Section 31 was right to poison the Changelings, they were irredeemably evil. The "Great Link" was so thoroughly poisoned that only Changelings who hadn't been a part of it or who had been brought up outside of it, such as Laas or Odo, were capable of reasoning with other beings. It isn't 'genocide' to kill off the leadership of an explicitly genocidal empire just because that leadership happens to be the bulk of the membership of a particular species.

>>94359739
The Federation diplomatically using convergences of interests to push for peaceful alliances instead of continuing war is part of their values. Working together for a mutual self-benefit is the whole crux of how the Federation was founded to begin with.

>>94353452
Kirk had to coup Ekos to save his crew's life, but the moment you make that the Federation's MO you start releasing some uncomfortable questions on how much they should meddle with the Klingon Empire, particularly some of its less savory Houses' policies.

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>>94360214
More like they didn't want the competition for their spayed and neutered versions. Thank Star Trek Picard.

>>94360455
The funny thing is that the way the timeline stands up, Vadic must have already been infected with the virus before being taken prisoner. So Section 31 would have needed to give her the cure first. So if she'd just escaped a few months/years earlier she could have delivered the cure to the Link, and that would basically guarantee the Dominion winning the war.

>>94360492
Admittedly making them sick first would make it easier to catch 'em all.

>>94330236
Imagine getting David Cronenburg for your show and then not even having him do any cool body horror shit. God what a dogshit character. What a useless, indulgent piece of casting.

>>94360492
only if it's a one-time infection/cure scenario

and they may well have told her that it wasn't

>>94360455
So glad with Admiral Crusher's expert aid they managed to capture Ryan Reynold's Deadpool stunt double.

>>94358145
To be pedantic, it wasn't Janeway, it was one of Janeway's suicidal copies.
On that note, christ, I have yet to wrap my mind around the full ramifications of the federation having the ability to create insaneways at will. I mean hologram-people are a can of worms to begin with but being able to create disposable janeways is another level of power just because disposable janeways are so overpowered.

>>94361655
Star Trek Discovery overdid it's body horror with the tardigrade stuff, also making Cronenburg do body horror is what would have made the casting indulgent. Also Stacy Abrams was indulgent casting

>>94359521
>If it isn't imperfect, why In The Pale Moonlight?
Sisko just wanted to partake in a little tomfoolery

>>94359739
>No, it's not. It's a convergence of interests, nothing more.
You are drawing an interesting distinction between "interests" and "values", and I encourage you to explain that distinction in greater detail. I think that you may be tempted to define interests as correct values, and to define values as incorrect interests, but I may be wrong
Even when operating on the most cynical game-theory sort of level, when someone says "the federation values prevailed", what they mean is "the federation strategy succeeded because they convinced other actors to let them succeed". I know this is far-fetched, but I suspect that you might be trying to say something along the lines of "convincing other actors was part of the Federation strategy to begin with and at the end of the day they're just another player trying to win the game". In which case, if I were operating on the most cynical game-theory sort of level, I would say "yes, that's exactly right, thank you for understanding."
Alternately, you may be saying that the coalition was mutually beneficial to Romulus and also to Kronos and so they would have naturally allied regardless of federation "values". In which case, no, you're a dumbfuck. In a Milky Way without Earth, the klingons and the romulans would have kept shitting on each other right up until the very moment that the Dominion deprived them of their ability to shit on each other.

>>94364225
They're Romulans. If they fall for a human's scheme they deserve all the shit they get for it. I mean these are people who sacrifice the population of their homeworld just to fuck over Starfleet's brand new positronic retard labor.

>>94364265
I don't think that there is any possible world where the failed Romulan evacuation is compatible with futuristic technology. You have to pretend like they were sailing between stars with wooden vessels going 10 miles per hour and they didn't have enough coins to hire enough vessels in time. In the world of Star Trek it should have been trivially easy for them to just move to another star under their own power without any help from outsiders.

>>94364265
It was a Cardassian's scheme.

>>94364225
And the dead Maquis? The Federation citizens the Federation was incapable of protecting, let alone guaranteeing the freedoms and opportunities of the Federation to?

>>94364299
It's a matter of capacity, which is simple addition. You have 1,000,000,000 bodies that must be transported at least x light years, which takes y hours for the trip and z hours of loading and unloading; they require f resources at their destination (starting with habitable planetary biospheres and working up to food, shelter, etc; not knowing if Romulans share the Vulcan ability to go without water is not the same as this being a trivial matter). These worlds are ideally not inhabited at the time of emergency colonization, which may be a major problem in a region with centuries or millennia of warp travel and empire building, and also presents the requirement of completely building infrastructure as the refugees are arriving.

The Galaxy class can transport 15000 people in an emergency (in reality 14000 since it has a normal complement of 1000, and even without families would need those extra crew to wrangle the refugees); the Galaxy class travelling at warp 9.6 can probably travel out of the range of the supernova's remaining effects post-red matter (which may take years to arrive but which will arrive) in a few hours; but then it needs to travel a few hours back, empty, and can only maintain that speed in emergencies for a few hours anyway. So it probably doesn't do it both ways. Call it a 2 hour trip at warp 9.6: to evacuate 1 billion people takes 71,400 trips. To evacuate 1 trillion takes 71.4 million trips. All the while burning out one of the largest ships of the fleet. We don't know how much of Romulus has a fleet (possibly not much given Dominion war losses seem to have resulted in newer, smaller warbird replacements, and the potential for the main fleet to be caught in the initial supernova). But those 71.4 million trips of 14000 refugees a time take 32,600 ship-years with return trips.

How many trillions would you like to evacuate? The ones you leave behind will use what ships they have to try and steal yours to save the people they care about.

>>94366747
The human thought to ask his Cardassian superior for help. This makes the responsibility all his.

>>94366903
Fascinating, it appears to be trying to communicate despite lacking necessary brain functions.

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>>94366917
He's a red shirt worshiper. Yep, being a Red Shirt makes him feel invincible!

>>94366937
Tendi is trans (and so will be you)!

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I take it someone from /tv/ got banned and is spending his vacay here.

>>94367017
Actually there's a thread on /co/ which seems to have triggered him. Might as well rename that board /tv2/.

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>>94367100
You lucky loonie, you!

>>94367133
>Be Eddington
>tell Sisko about your Lucky Loonie
>don't tell Sisko about how you sewed Lucky Loonies all over your outfit so every single shot from the Jem'Hadar hit them meaning you survived and are rebuilding the Maquis in the Badlands

>>94367031
> the last cell of NuTrek shills.
…wait, are you implying that the next season of SNW won’t be woke? That the Section 31 series or the 31st century Academy series won’t be woke?

What makes you think any of that?

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>>94367281
He tried to make a new thread
and it got nuked from orbit.

I'm not even sure what was happening with the posts removed here. Was the guy sameposting to start a fight?

>>94360492
>>94362405
In a way S31 infected them with something else. As I understand it Vadic and the other surviving Changeling captives has the ability to "infect" other Changelings with their changes. No, I have no idea how that would work since S31 used an experimental formula with thelomium-847 stabilization. Maybe the brewed up some more, maybe it passed on to them. The drop becoming the ocean, as the saying goes, only it would be Joining into a polluted ocean. You'd think that would thing out the overall mixture but who knows. It's STP, they don't really think their shit through. For instance all that they supposedly gain by the alterations are things we already know they had. Scanners and transporters already couldn't detect a disguised Changeling from the genuine article. All they gain is they don't revert to a gelatinous state when killed. Oh, and they're also much, much weaker, able to die by blades or the cold of space, and they are no longer Timeless.

Really not sure why they would think it a good idea to share this with the others. There had to be hundreds of better and more effective methods of getting revenge on the Federation. This is just a convoluted POS that makes no logical sense.

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>>94366937
pour one out to all the aliens we'll never see again after the animated shows end

>>94368102
Looking at the archive, the deletion timestamp is the same *second* on those posts. It's gotta have been one guy getting wiped, so you're probably right.

>>94368102
>Scanners and transporters already couldn't detect a disguised Changeling from the genuine article.

I'm not convinced that was true during the whole of DS9; in particular it may have been an effect not just of Changeling morphology but of infiltration and sabotage - the transporters evidently could detect a Changeling (they transported Odo all the time, so *detection* isn't the problem) but we were told could not discriminate between Changeling and impersonated individuals. That left the blood tests which were not scaleable (consider the number of transports per day across the Federation; these episodes would not have been written post-911 or certainly post-Shoe Bomber when we all learned first-hand how the additional security measures would go - they're a DB Cooper fantasy set on DS9). So there must have been a way to detect Changelings other than blood tests (which were also far from infallible if you already had a Changeling on board - which a sufficiently talented Changeling could presumably do by drifting into the bussard collectors as hydrogen), otherwise Section 31 could never have captured and held any Changelings, which they were doing contemporaneously with the Dominion War. It's partly retcon but also partly reasonable inference - the Federation et al would not have functioned without transporters and with constant door checks at every level of every facility. Changeling ability to evade those scans and checks must have been limited and likely (as with the Martok changeling) down to sabotage and abuse of assumed authority.

The benefit of making Changelings part-solid is that they become better infiltrators: you can kill them and unless you know what to look for, they simply look like dead humans/whatevers. But for S31 the benefit might have been forcing the entire species to assume semisolid form permanently - which may have been the intent of the disease they created. Once they figured out it would simply kill the Changelings, they shrugged.

>>94368337
Also I was never convinced that the Changeling who detonated itself at the Federation conference on Earth died; that seems out of character for a species that created several expendable client species. I was never even certain why master cloners didn't simply clone their intended targets and use "evil twin" tech against their enemies instead of personally going there, but call that arrogance or foible.

If becoming a rapidly expanding cloud of toxic gases and shrapnel isn't beyond a talented Changeling's ability, I don't see why they would need to evade transporter scans at all - they can travel through space under their own power, probably even become a warp engine given sufficient numbers in a local Link. That is sloppy writing but it's the same kind of problem ST always has had - someone writes the tricorder detecting a fart in a locked room 400km away and noting it as life signs, so the next week you have to write a story that doesn't contradict that. The simplest thing to do is (as was often the case on DS9) ignore the problems that arise from earlier stories.

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>>94368107
It's actually one reason I like their use of animation. It allows them to showcase a lot of things that would be impractical or just too expensive in live action. Though I can't say I like the Gallamite reveal.

>>94368337
Odo makes it clear rather early on. If he's a rock and you scan him you'll detect a rock, and the Founders were far superior Changelings to him (which would supersede much of what we learn about Odo's species from him early on since he's basically a Changeling toddler by comparison). Detection in this case isn't about being invisible, it's about being unable to distinguish a Changeling from the thing they are impersonating, so that doesn't even come into it. And the transporter really can't distinguish between them, as in it literally cannot for story reasons, because it would be a ridiculously easy solution to discovering who is a Changeling.

But don't expect STP to realize that, because they did the stupid blood screening crap as if it hadn't already been defeated. It was INTRODUCED by Changeling Martok. True he wasn't originally planned as a Changeling but that's a moot point. He's still infiltrating a blood letting happy culture. They bleed for all kinds of rituals even beyond testing for Changelings. In order to remain undercover in that environment he had to have figured a way to foil the screenings, possibly using the method Joe Sisko proposed just off the top of his head.

>>94368377
Even in the episode they figure the Changeling at the conference escaped simply because there was no trace of it at the scene. A dead Changeling would be easy to detect, the only thing it can disguise itself as is a dead Changeling.

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>>94368554
It's always amusing when the person so desperate for attention runs into a thread and immediately begins blabbing about some inconsequential IRL BS nobody cares about before acting like everyone else is the one obsessed with same inconsequential IRL BS.

>>94368559
These two positions are mutually exclusive however. If Odo literally becomes a rock, then he is a rock. We're getting into the metaphysical to explain how he has mind when he's a rock - it's much harder to explain than how a human has a mind, since a human body at least has systems we can argue become a mind in their effects. A rock is a rock, horta excepted.

But if a Changeling becomes a bomb, then a Changeling is a bomb. If that bomb detonates then the Changeling becomes bomb residues. Not finding any traces of Changeling wouldn't be unexpected - just as if you smashed a rock that had been Odo, you would expect to find smaller rocks, not Changeling residue. If the Changeling becomes a bomb and survives, you wouldn't even find explosive residue - because there would be none. But that leaves a further question of why become a bomb at all, other than showing off? That Changeling clearly could react fast enough to kill everyone in the room and escape, a talent no other Changeling ever exhibited.

If the angel is permitted to dance on the head of the pin, however, then a middle ground is necessary: the Changeling is both the rock and Odo and anything else, but also a Changeling. Some conscious mind holds it together (per various grunting episodes), with effort. That is detectable, however unlikely it may seem, because it is a quality common to all impersonated things. Moreover it would be easy to observe in a rock - because a rock should not have those qualities, whatever they are. You just have to know to look for them, say by being given an existential reason to do so.

>>94368635
That's silly. He has no brain and yet he thinks just fine. Changelings are aliens. You're making the mistake of trying to figure out how aliens work. It's even worse given he's a fictional alien.

Also the Changeling on Earth didn't become a bomb. Where the heck are you getting that?
https://youtu.be/oOkwFkceVU8?t=191

>>94368635
>>94368685
When you consider how much dakka Changeling Martok gobbled up before he was put down you can undrstand how a Changeling might shrug off a bomb.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKW1n0v5z6k
The kinetic blast wave and shrapnel isn't going to phase them in the least. Apparently full Founders are able to mitigate energy based weaponry. Given they can transform into fire and fog it's perhaps not so surprising. Klingons as a warrior culture don't create tickler blasters, after all. I imagine they'd at least be on par with the brutal weapons you'd expect in the Mirror Universe which destroyed Mirror Odo pretty quickly.

I'd suggest people who are interested read up on them in memory alpha. There's a lot of interesting behind the scenes stuff. Shunting mass into subspace to become smaller, for instance, but also Founders are extremely adept infiltrators able to duplicate someone right down to the structure of the brain. That means they can duplicate your emotional capacity and memories. In many ways these fantastical properties are forced on them by the nature of the technological feats we see. A tricorder is able to detect brain patterns and scan for not only influence but also possession. This means in order to full scanners Changelings must be able to completely duplicate a person's brain and operate it in the same way as the original so a simple scan won't defect any difference. When the Federation is stuck with phaser sweeping rooms and possessions it's clear such "simple" tests as a a tricorder and transporter can't solve for Founders. Odo is easy. He admits that even if he can appear like a seagull, for instance, he can't even duplicate them to the extent other seagulls can't tell he's not one of them. A much more experienced Founder is waaaay beyond Odo in terms of what they can do.

>>94368773
Just an addendum but please keep in mind that this stuff is behind the scenes and speculation, albeit from the people who were authorities on the show at the time. For instance:

>Since Changelings do not eat, "Robert Wolfe used to theorize," said Ronald D. Moore, "that the Changelings pulled their energy directly from subspace (or some [other] quasi-scientific realm)." (AOL chat, 1997) Wolfe's theory also stated that "Changelings use some sort of subspace 'pocket' to store additional mass during a morph." (AOL chat, 1997)

It's best to assume that Changelings are like everything else fantastical seen in Star Trek, menacing they run on technobabble. What irks me about PIC is that there is a lot they didn't need to change.

>>94368807
Sorry, a link might also help!
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Changeling

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>>94368807
>Wolfe's theory also stated that "Changelings use some sort of subspace 'pocket' to store additional mass during a morph."
I'll allow it.

>>94368510
I'm fine with everything but the mouth

>>94368866
Heh, yeah, I forgot the Tranformers bit. I'm thinking more the silliness with the X-Men. Cyclops tapping into the Punch Dimension for (kinetic force) optic blasts and Wolverine to the Meat Dimension to regenerate.

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>>94368899
Personally I think I'd prefer more of a horse skull shape to the mouth. This looks like, I don't know, some kind of venus fly trap thing is going on with him. But an elongated curved mouth might look cool, especially if you give them a hinged jaw like a snake. I also wish the transparent skull was more integrated into the design. As is they look like science experiments with clear domes left after Dr. Frank-N-Furter did that sexy voodoo that he doodoo.

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>>94368925
If we're still doing X-Men references, No-Girl finally got a body back which just happens to have a transparent skull. Not sure why. Insofar as I recall despite having mental powers her deal was a villain removed her brain from her body and she was stuck in a glass suspension unit. When she was given a body they decided to keep the aesthetic for some reason.

>>94368773
>Klingons as a warrior culture don't create tickler blasters
They actually do, they want you to disintegrate slowly while screaming in pain, which may have been a factor here.

>>94368979
Checking over that issue, they specifically requested the clear skull modification to her resurrected body to stick her brain back into. But I know there's some other scifi series that have transparent heads and visible brain. Goddamn does my memory suck right now. There was that guy in Nu-Who who had an operation done where his skull opens up at the forehead to reveal his brain, but that's all I can really recall off the top of my head. Somehow though I feel like Gallomites should look more like Talosians. Pale flesh that becomes increasingly transparent until becoming fully clear around the brain. Something that looks more INTEGRATED you know?

But that's just me. It's honestly not a big deal, even if they look more bestial. Dax, as a worm in Jadzia's guts, would have no room to complain. More to the point should anyone in the 24th century complain? Does racism even make sense in the general capacity? With all of these different species running around, not all of them being human with different lumpy foreheads, what's the big deal? Sure I can imagine specific cases. Klingons, Cardassians, Romulans. All of them have well-earned reputations that might make someone wary of all members of a species, rightly or wrongly. But in general? Hard to see. I handwaved it for Kira. Bajorans are kind of a backwater species. This is not an insult, it's part of the tragedy. They used to be explorers. The Occupation beat them back into their hole. Kira, in my mind, reflects the isolationist time of her people when their world wasn't even their own but Cardassian. Practical prisoners on their own planet.

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>>94369262
I take your meaning, but I don't know. Even the lowest setting on painsticks doesn't suggest tickle rod.

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At the same time I always found it had to believe, despite all the different settings phasers do have, the Federation would design one with, "Slow and painful enough to scream as you are disintegrated." Try figuring out that compared to the ban on the Varon T Disruptor.

>>94369370
section 31 did it

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>>94369347
maybe for you

>>94369605
Pretty sure Hellraiser would enjoy Klingon painsticks. Their pleasure is pain. Doesn't really make it a tickle rod, though. If it was, they'd have no interest.

>>94369370
That's just because of Paul Winfield's power level.

>>94368685
>Also the Changeling on Earth didn't become a bomb. Where the heck are you getting that?

because you'd have to be totally incompetent to smuggle a bomb into a room then stay in that room when you could become literally anything? like that changeling could have just become a combadge it had previously also been on a person it impersonated to get that far, look discarded and be removed from the room before the conference; it could have become anything, there's no benefit to being there at all - if it wanted to eavesdrop it could have placed a listening device knowing where the bomb would destroy any trace of it

that changeling could have become gas and simply exited the room by being part of the atmosphere, but it chose to remain

that implies it became the bomb or at least the explosive gases, which is well within its capabilities since even Laas could become gas without training or access to the Link

i just changelinged in my pants

>>94370293
Considering it didn't die in that room, no, not so crazy. It either doesn't give a shit about bombs of that nature or had a way out. Either way it is said to have escaped

Now a better question is why it transformed right before the bomb exploded. Was it doing so to make said escape, or was it part of the plan to be seen and cause the exact chaos that happened in the aftermath?

>>94370293
Except that at least part of the point of the bomb in the first place was to get Starfleet paranoid about changelings.

>>94370368
NTA (fwiw) just saying that I always wondered about that whole mess. It's the timing that always got me. Leyton's plan was before the bombing with his operative causing the wormhole to open, right? Dude was stockpiling phaser rifles, portable force field generators, you name it, the refit of their ships, the promotions. But you can't force the president's hand on just the wormhole acting janky, right? BUT if there were a major crisis, such as a bombing that killed some ambassadors? Now we're talking.

So how does it break down? Did Leyton plan the bombing only for a Changeling to get caught up in it? Did the Changelings catch wind of his plan and realize a coup worked to their benefit? Was the O'Brien met by Sisko a Changeling or an operative of Leyton's? (not that "O'Brien" never shapeshifted) But then what about the fake Leyton?

And worse? With STP it's possible that it was Section 31 playing with their new Changeling operatives, getting some of them to cooperate through various means.