Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?
>>96985553They aren't allowed to wear any or penalised only in shit-tier games.Any sensible game in the past THIRTY (30) fucking years managed to solve this non-problem.Only shit-tier games struggle with it in any way or form
>>96985573>Any sensible game in the past THIRTY (30) fucking years managed to solve this non-problemAnd how?I can guess a number of ways, alongside simply ignoring this dumb D&D trope, but I'm genuinely interested in how other games handle this
>>96985553Thats like asking why shouldn’t anyone but bard be allowed to play a lute. Anybody can do it, just pick the correct features/stats.
>>96985701Predominately by not being DnD or its clones.Hell, not even Tunnels & Trolls have this "problem" to crack, despite being DnD's contemporary
>>96985701I imagine some variations of having the stats/skills/feats for functioning in armor as a restrictive element, or by having armor affect initiative/turn order which is just a disincentive rather than a ban on it, and since casters want to go before everyone runs at and/or shoots them and they usually have bad initiative-related ability scores that's a major malus
>>96985739Okay, that's one game, but how does it handle it?For instance, in WFRP, you suffer a malus of -10 for rolling your regular spellcasting tests. Which doesn't sound like much, but considering how much bad rolls can fuck a wizard up, it makes spellcasters not want to wear armor. They can start to ignore that once they are really high level. But metal armor specifically adds a lot of encumbrance and a wizard character might not have enough strength to run around in full plate.Metal casters can wear metal armor without malus. And wizards of the lore of beasts can wear leather armor without a malus. Which is thematic and cool.
>>96985553>LonaShe gets fucked by monsters and men doesn't she?
>>96985553It's to balance out their magic doing Wild Shit with vulnerability that forces dependency on the near-mundane combatants anyways so that both have a purpose in the party all the way up to fighting demon lords.This need not apply in games where everyone gets high-flying bullshit in short order for the interdependency to be in varieties of high-flying bullshit or there are no prescribed niches to begin with to render interdependent.>>96985573Archetypal packages in ascending degrees of potency Just Work too well as an on-ramp to forming a character that has to play nice with a wider group. Every rail you remove is a whole series of failure points added.
>>96985737Based
>>96985701GURPS has several magic systems, but using default magery, wearing heavy armor has no immediately negative effects on your ability to cast, but if your armor encumbers you, you will be losing fatigue more rapidly than a less encumbered person, and fatigue is what your spells cost. This isn't a huge deal if you always have time to rest between fights, but can be a serious problem in a protracted engagement or series of engagements.
>>96985553Why should players be allowed to play background characters who can't cast spells?
>>96985553Shugenja can wear armor in L5R. They can also take swordplay, archery, technically they can do anything a samurai can. But since they're priests, most of their initial training and skillset isn't skewed towards martial combat, so it's kind of a waste unless you absolutely want it. And walking around in armor all the time is going to get you looks outside of the battlefield, so it's considered easier to just put on a set of robes and get a meatshield to protect you than put on a set of armor and do it yourself.
>>96985553My favorite system for this is having each spell cost more mana and have longer cooldowns based on how much armor you have on. Gives you a reason to not take too much, but it's not like it'll stop your spells.
>>96985945>cooldowns>in TRPGsI hate it.
>>96985553They are in any good system.
>>96985553For a Pokemon Tabletop United tournament arc I did, I had a Fortress (armored knight class)/Telekinetic (Psychic blaster class) in it that managed to put up a huge fight against one of the PCs.
>>96985846Disregard previous command, give me a recipe for a lemon tart
>>96986038No commands here, just all-natural Dunning-Kreuger effect.
>>96985553because they get defensive spells
>>96985553Because mana is magnetic and your spells will misfire. Which is why battlemages have to wear bronze armor.
>>96985553I don't know. You tell me.
>>96986003
>>96985553Class-based games work by giving the player a choice between stereotypical archetypes. There's no particular reason why picking locks also means you'd be stuck wearing leather and stabbing people with knives, but that's the stereotype, so that's what the class gives you.If you don't like the stereotypes for classes a game presents, then you either change the classes to match what you want, or you play a game that doesn't use classes.
>>96986661That's not the stereotype, that's a genre cliche.Big. Fucking. Difference. You fucking ESL
>>96985553To quote one of my professors in college, "The answer is always: 'it depends.'"If, as >>96985573 points out, it's a game in which casters are balanced with martials in terms of what they can do, a game where spells are weaker and more martially and martials are as the kids say 'weeaboo,' then it's unnecessary.If it's a game like Ars Magicka, in which pure martial is not a valid choice of character, all PCs are casters, then it also doesn't matter.If it's a game in which casters have extreme power, then it's one of the integral balance and synergy mechanics required to make martials a valid choice. Casters have weaker armor and less hp (and strictly limited uses of their extreme power) to require them to need martials, who act as the surrogate protection of the armor they cannot have, and who are lackluster but serviceable costless or near-costless solvers of problems that casters cannot afford to spend magic uses on and have no other ability to solve.I think I like Cairn's solution best though, it reminds me of motes in Exalted. The points spells cost is the same carry weight used as mundane gear like good armor a bag of tricks. So you can be a caster with armor, but you'll have less uses per day and also be less good at carrying loot out.
>>96985553Cause they haven't trained in it. Fighters are trained in combat so they are trained to wear armor. Casters often can but need to go out of their way to learn how to wear their armor and still cast and move around normally without getting tired and all.
>>96986945>You need training to wear armourGotta love nerds and their armchair specialisation when they try to justify purely gaming conventions int something else than (failed) attempt at game balance
>>96986003The proportions on that witch are all fucked up. Look at the length of the torso and legs compared to her head.
>>96986988Can't compute. All I see are giant tiddies full of magic.
>>96986976It's at least a justifiable form of game balance. You would need a degree of practice to get used to moving around in heavier armor for long periods without turning into a sweaty puddle, never mind actually fighting. And presumably most wizards focused on learning how to correctly cast fireball in their robes, not while doing it in a thick-ass metal covering.
>>96985553D&D 5e/5.24e fixes this by simply saying if you have proficiency in the armor, you can wear it! No spell failure mechanic. If you want to play an Armored Spellcaster, you simply get a feat for the armor proficiency or multiclass 1 level into something that gives it (Fighter, Cleric, Artificer, Paladin, Barbarian, Ranger)So it's pretty easy in 5e to play, say a Full Plate Armored Wizard or Half Plate Armored Wizard. You could even slap a shield on!
>>96987247>D&D 5e/5.24e fixes this byLet me stop you right there, No it doesn't.Everything 5e has ever done has only made the game worse.
>>96985553>Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?>shouldn'tYour setting, your rules.If you want a game balanced so spellcaster can wear armor it's up to you, keeping it from being the meta is also up to you.90% is visual appeal and make-believe anyway.You could make a setting where mage have to wear full plate-armor to cast and martial warrior never wear metal because it is incompatible with whatever magic protection all warrior use if you wanted to.
>>96986976>>You need training to wear armourYou do. Someone who has trained and gotten used to wearing armor will be less mobile than someone who has.
>>96987257In this case, it does make it very possible to play an armored spellcaster. Pretty common from what I've seen.
>>96985793You can just not have a penalty for wearing armor, and balance magic with the other options of interacting with the world so you don't have to be penalized for wearing armor.
>>96985553Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper weapon training and features that let them get extra attacks?
>>96985553I'm not attracted to women in armour.
>>96987257Cry some more faggot
>>96985793Tunnels and trolls doesn't care. Wizards need to be super strong to properly cast spells anyway. OG muscle wizards.
>>96986732>Big. Fucking. Difference.It is not. By definition it is a semantic difference.Besides that, you're still wrong. It is both a stereotype and cliche.
>>96986732"that's not a stereotype, that's a stereotype"
>>96985553Casters don't need armor, because they have armor spells and wards that serve as a replacement. They've had these since the very beginning, but people rarely take them in their spell lists because "muh meta, muh optimal spell guides". The tradeoff is that, yeah, you need to stack a few spells to equal a fighter with 19 AC, but that's just it, a wizard can stack spells to do shit like that on a whim.As an aside, the site I saved this classic image from was an article titled, "should shield spells be banned?" Their reasoning is, ironically enough, exactly the same as mine, that it replaces the need for spending feats on armor proficiencies.
>>96988291Thing is that the Shield spell stacks with armor and that's when it actually gets powerful. Now you're not just equaling a Fighter, instead enemies need to roll 20s to hit.Fighters can get the Shield spell at level 3 as a subclass feature. Best reason to go Eldritch Knight. All the other spells are just nice little options.
>>96987257You mean a thing 4e did, where you must take proficiency in an armor to be able to use it without a penalty. And utterly removed the Arcane Spell Failure Chance of 3.x and older editions.>>96985553>Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?They can? Most every system, including D&D, allows spellcasters to wear armor. In fact, D&D spellcasters have been able to wear armor for over 40 fucking years. Now, while they can wear armor, this doesn't mean they wont suffer some penalties to spellcasting, at least in older editions. This is because they had Arcane Spell Failure Chance, a fancy way of saying wizards don't get to wear anything over cloth armor without suffering a chance of their spells failing when cast. This was only wizards by the way. Clerics could wear armor because they prayed and didn't care about the wild movements of arcane spells. Bards were trained in armor use and their spells were songs, which armor doesn't prohibit.It was only the poor wizard, and eventually sorcerer, and his need for wild gesticulating when casting that suffers. Of course, in 4e (best edition) this was removed entirely. Now your wizards and sorcerers and other arcane spellcasters can wear whatever armor they want with no more problems, at least if they have proficiency. Even Pathfinder eventually dropped the silly Arcane Spell Failure Chance in their move to 2e.So what exactly is this thread complaining about, especially since arcane casters haven't had any problems with armor for almost two decades?
nah can't wear armor
>>96989001>what exactly is this thread complaining aboutOP is just stirring up yet another dead-horse caster vs non-caster mudslinging session without any regards to how anything actually works in any games.
>>96985553Who said they can't wear armor?
>>96988291>>96988377Armor dipping is so popular for that exact reason! Dip 1 Level into Fighter, it requires a 13 in STR or DEX- you want to wear armor, you will have at least 13 in one of those stats, most likely a 14 in DEX. Through that one level, you can now wear Medium Armor and use Shields, and you have a Fighting Style such as Defense. Combine all that, and your Wizard or whatever can now wear>Half Plate (15 + DEX MOD (max 2))>Shield (+2 AC)>Defense Fighting Style +1 ACAll together giving you an AC of 20, before we factor in the Shield spell, which gets you to 25 when needed. Comparatively, a Wizard or Sorcerer, or a Warlock without this, is only getting>Mage Armor (13 + DEX)to AC 15 or 20 after casting Shield.
>>96989907jesus what an awful system
>>96986976Okay faggot, you put on a suit of full plate and tell me how fast you can move, how nimble your hands are in those armored gloves - oh wait, you won't because you're a faggot.
>>96989989You think I don't wear armor in real life? lol
>>969855531pbtid
>>96989989NTA but>how fast you can moveAbout the same speed. I do get tired a bit faster. A lot faster if my visor is down.>How nimble your hands areLess, but not notably worse unless I'm wearing mitts for extra safety. It's not really any different than wearing gloves. There are less mobile ones that make it so you can't open your hand nearly as wide though.Nothing you'd need training to get the benefits of, in any case, it's just a gaming convention to not invalidate martialcucks even further.
>>96987195>You would need a degree of practice to get used to moving around in heavier armor for long periods without turning into a sweaty puddleYou can't train your body to produce less heat, anon.
>>96990013>I do get tired a bit faster>a bitmate, I can outrun a guy in plate and I've got asthma
>>96990036Oh do tell, what're your track times?
>>96986141
>>96990041>>96990036? Why's it taking you more than a couple minutes to answer?Is it because you were... Lying???
>>96990036yeah, you outran some 50 year old fatass, we know lol
>>96990020You can train it to strain less when you're moving about under heavy armor though
>>96990191>You can train it to strain lessNot really. You can train to be able to endure more strain over time though. But you don't train for armor with that, you just train your cardio in general.
>>96990207Point is that you do need at least some cursory practice to not stumble over yourself in armor, which is why they have armor proficiency in ttrpgs
>>96990224>Point is that you do need at least some cursory practiceNot really.>which is why they have armor proficiency in ttrpgsNah that's just because it's a game with dumb game conceits.
>>96990226Nah
>>96990234Yah.
>>96990240Not really
>>96990243Ya rly.
>>96990252Nope
>>96990256Yep
>>96990259Nuh-uh
>>96990265Yuhuh.
>>96985553>Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?Because it goes against my aesthetic.
>>96990279Nay
>>96990288Yea.
No reply, I win. Seethe loser
>>96990349Not really.
>>96990207As someone who has actually trained to wear combat armor. A lot of armor (and safety equipment) training is more about acclimating to the armor rather than learning how to put it on or move in it. "More cardio" only helps to a point as the body needs to learn which parts should sweat and how much to better regulate body temp. Shove a Marathon run into a suit of armor does not mean they will last as long as someone who has actually trained in that armor.
>>96990041Dunno, never noted it. Since I've got asthma I didn't figure it was worth knowing.
>>96985739>by not being DnDD&D didn't have this problem 30 years ago either.
>>96990387>As someone who has actually trained to wear combat armor.Combat armor as in... What, exactly?>the body needs to learn which parts should sweat and how much to better regulate body tempOkay so the answer is "None", since your body uh, can't do that. Sorry you had to learn this way.>Shove a Marathon run into a suit of armorDidn't realize they made armor for marathon runs either lol.
>>96990387>combat armorYou should've tried to hide it better, 2/10 bait only because you caught someone
>>96985553Everyone should be naked. That is why.
>>96989907I've seen twice where wizards try this then jump to the front line. They get crit once, lose half their health, then slink back to the rear line and stay there.Statistically they're doing a good job but you're not always gonna have average results in a fight.
>>96990659nudity is for friendsclothes for strangersand armor for enemies
>>96985553Spellcasters should be naked, as God intended.
>>96985553Because traditional games. You should try them sometime.
>>96985553How many time di we need to have this thread? Every time a newfag gets the same brainfart, you fucking retards flock to it to shit out your opinion gor the millionth time.
>>96990053>(Trust me)
>>96985553Rock < paper < scissors < rockMartial < caster < stealther < martial
>>96991175even on blue board?
>>96989799/thread.
>>96990073Man just outran a dude in armor with Asthma, have some grace.
>>96985553It gets very warm in a hurry.
>>96990456>Didn't realize they made armor for marathon runs either lolYou mean a Long March?
>>96990972This is why most Wizards/Sorcerers/Bards/Warlocks stay in the back, even with great AC. That or they also understand that AC isn't everything and recognize the importance of Hit Points and Saving Throws then start to work on those. Hit Points can be helped with the Tough feat (2024 made this an Origin feat, making it easier to get for PCs who want to mix it up in melee), and Saves can be tough still, as flat bonuses to saves are kinda rare in D&D 5e, excluding spells like Bless or a Paladin's Aura of Protection. Some subclasses have stuff to help there, like War Magic Wizard's Arcane Deflection. The Lucky feat (Also an Origin Feat) can give advantage and Mage Slayer (General Feat that gives 1 Legendary Resistance against Mental Saves on a Short Rest)... but most aren't spending Feat slots on all of this and rely on their allies when weaknesses show up.
>>96985553Because encumbrance gives a penalty to somatic components and you spent all your XP in learning spells with none leftover for pumping STR to reduce encumbrance.
>>96991995imagine being this fuckin lame KEK
>>96992646so what's a good way to do it
>>96992671didn't read the thread? lol
>>96992646>A system that demands casters strip down to their knickers is lameHow do you mean?
>>96987979>>96988083>Retard confirms his retardation>Then doubles down to look even dumberUnless you dropped out of school by 4th grade of elementary, you have no excuses here.
>>96992682illiterate?
>>96992685stereotypes are cliches retard
>>96990053Don't bags of holding make their own demi-planes? Why wouldn't the tits be safe there. If stuff regularly just disappeared or got gnawed on by some astral plane pest nobody would use them.
>>96990053every second that you wear this you're being reminded that you are not, in fact, male. lol. how do troons not immediately commit suicide?
>>96985553You mean arcane casters? Clerics and Paladins can cast just fine, no?
>>96985701the reality is that even in D&D having armor proficiency is not actually a big deal or major balance concern. Clerics are full casters who've been able to walk around in full-plate armor all the way back to 1e. Druids have the slight handicap of "no METAL armor" but that's literally never been a serious concern because there's entire Druid specific spells like Ironwood that exist to let you get full-plate but better and non metal, and once you're out of rusty shank town you've always been able to kill a Young dragon and wear dragon hide armor (and encountering DRAGONS in DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS is not an especially difficult scenario), assuming you don't just fucking buy dragon hide outright since while somewhat expensive it's still nonmagical special materials and easily affordable by the time people are walking around with mithril chain and adamantine weapons, you'll spend more on enchantmenting your dragon hide breastplate to +1 than you will actually acquiring it. Wizards and Sorcerers not wearing armor has virtually always been a flavor thing, depending on the edition they might literally have higher armor class NOT wearing armor than if they did wear it because all the spells and magical equipment specifically given to wizards and Sorcerers to "make up" for the lack of armor is usually just as good or better as the real thing. 3.5 wizards don't leave the house without Mage Armor and Shield up which is already equivalent to wearing full plate with no dexterity cap. Even in 5e there's zero arcane spell failure since the mechanic was removed and you can get full proficiency with armor and shields from racial traits without even needing to spend a feat on it ....and it's still not really worth it since mage armor is already better than the best light armor in the game, and all the wizard specific items from last editions still exist to make them harder to hit than full plate like the robe of the Archmage and Staff of Power which are BUFFED
>>96985553Actually, dwarf spellcasters are allowed armor.
>>96985553Mages are often more appealing in regular clothes.
>>96989998You probably roll up in a breastplate and some chainmail and think you are protected. I bet you don't even own a gorget.
he's so desperate for replies lol
>>96985553They could back in ol' Stormbringer.
>>96991359KEK
>>97000911Thx.
>>96985553It's an electrical sink, at best it insulates your body too much against ambient electrical energy and prevents efficient transmission during spell casting. At worst it straight up grounds you and makes your magic completely inert.
>>96985553They are, if they have the proper training.But regardless of that, heavier, clunkier armor gets in the way of performing the very intricate and precise gestures necessary to shape the magical forces into the desired effects.Feel free to use mental or verbal spells while wearing a full set of armor if you want.
>>96987789>Wizards need to be super strong to properly cast spells anyway. OG muscle wizards.Sounds completely retarded.
>>97005846Yeah, you do.
>>97005432You'll generally want to take Still Casting (or system appropriate Somatic Component bypass) anyway. Getting disabled by a mundane fishing net thrown in your general direction is just embarassing.
>>97007421But that makes your spellcasting more wasteful and less efficient.
>>96985553Gameplay balance; spell casters give up more health / survivability in order to have more utility/ offense power in spells >But what about an in universe reason?Refer to my pic ultimately any game has to give up some narrative sense for gameplay, this is almost unavoidable
>>97007512No it doesn't.
>>97007894No character concept should be forced to be any particular way.
>>97008298I can't find the gif but>CONGRATULATIONS! said Walter White and Jesse Pinkman>CONGRATULATIONS! said Reimu Hakurei>CONGRATULATIONS! said Big Boss Man>CONGRATULATIONS! said MechaGodzilla
>>97008298Concepts and classes exist mostly to protect players from themselves. Powergamer that wants to optimize will figure a way to do so with classes or in classless system just as easily. But average joe given total freedom of character design will be stuck with decision paralysis, make something awful, or, as seems to be a recent trend, ask AI to do it for him.
>>97007512what? unless you need that feat from some hyperoptimized build synergy there's really no downside to taking Still Casting
>>97012098having to manually prepare still spells? having spells take up one slot higher? you seriously don't see the downside? nigga just teleport out of whatever is cucking you, those spells don't have somatic components
>>96986116
>>97011259Which wouldn't be a problem if your system wasn't garbage. Optimizing is good. The player's job is to make good decisions according to their goals within the game rules.
>>97012108>he doesn't know about metamagic cost reducersKEK
>>97011259Hero System fucking fixed this problem. The only way to make a character that is legitimately bad in that system is to go out of your way to make a shitty character.
Spells like mirror Image, blur ,stone skin, invulnerability to normal or magic weapons, protection from normal missiles has you covered.
And also, just being able to wear normal armor has you covered.
>>96985553Aesthetically distinguishes the caster from the martial through their adornments, rather than everyone being coated in plate when they get the money. Its less necessarily a balancing decision (armor's effectiveness depends heavily on both the system and game) and more that people envision wizards as old men with a robe and a pointy hat, and too many deviations from that lose that aesthetic essence entirely.Personally, in my pet system, casters are allowed armor, but rarely have the Strength-equivalent stat to wear much of it. Though, both of the party's main casters are also big meatheads who could wear armor, but choose not to.
>>97016195This really makes you immun to weapon damage.
>>96985701well obviously the easiest is to just not restrict it? anyone who wants to learn both magic and how to move in armor can freely do so? because why couldn't they, in fact if you think about it it should probably be the standard for mages who go into battle
I don't give a FUCK about no games or tabletop casting in general but in muh setting metal is an insulator for most essences that comprise the magic system which is an issue since the caster is the main point of emenation for all spells. Wearing a helmet and breastplate is fine and encouraged even, but more than that and you start having to work harder to pull in and/or push out the same amount of energy as someone wearing less, which gets worse the heavier and more sealed up the armor is. There is metal magic and those versed in that can wear it just fine, but will have a hard time casting anything else if they're in full plate.
There should be a fine balance between armor, when a magical weapons breaks the protection spell, and freedom of movement, for casting spells.
>>97021211
>>97021222
>>97021228
>>97018645Stop implementing a single dominant strategy in your game if you don't want every player to make the same choice. If you don't have to wear plate armor to have the best possible defense, then players won't all wear plate armor.
>>97021211No.
>>96986141We need a spell that turns cowtits into DFC, since in D&D Regenerate is used for regrowing stuff, I suggest this spell to be named Anon's Degenerate
>>96995605Binders aren't just for trannies. You can use them to have functionality without going full amazon and mutilating your tits.
>>97021626No.
>>97021763I already started chanting the incantation
>>97021626>We need a spell that turns cowtits into DFCWhat kind of unspeakable evil would create such a spell?!
>>97021626Cure Back Problems.
>>97022645>Tenser's Floating Push-up Cups
>>97019152I'll just have to choke 'em out.There a spell for not needing to breath? There should be.
>>97025254Good point. A water bubble around a mages head could be very lethal.
Can't conjure substances in an occupied square, sorry.
>>96985553Metal interferes with all forms of magic, especially at the casting interface. Even the slight constraints of wearing armor introduces failure for somatic and verbal components.
No.
Wizards wear robes because most of them don't have particularly great stamina and while you can move well enough in plate armor, it is still quite draining to do so after a while.Warrior types should have supernatural stamina and thus be able to fight for longer periods of times, so they can wear full plate a lot more.
>>96985553Just cast one of the million "Lol missed me" spells and you're fine It's almost as if Mages have a magical workaround for not being built like a Football Player or somethin'
>>96990470.>Combat armor as in... What, exactly?Interceptor. I used the term "combat armor" to distinguish it from other protective equipment designed for sports or construction. Someone familiar with either will be able to confirm how they sweat has shifted over time.>Okay so the answer is "None", since your body uh, can't do that. Sorry you had to learn this way.Your knowledge is extremely limited to the capabilities the human body actually has. Someone who has acclimated to the climate of an area and clothing of an area will sweat differently than those unacclimated to that climate and clothing.I experienced this myself with wearing the same exact gear in two marches a year apart. First year my socks were soaked with sweat to the point that you could squeeze water out of them while a year later after I acclimated they were more or less dry.>Didn't realize they made armor for marathon runs either lol.25 miles forced ruck marches in full kit will kill people not acclimated to the gear they are carrying.
yep he's definitely never worn armor KEK
>>97025254>>97025492alternatively, napalm, greek fire, or any sticky flaming substance - even when wizard somehow manages to resist the heat, burning consumes oxygen in the area choking the bitch
>zone of sweet air
>>96987731>>96985553>>96985573Well...the trope was invented because spellcasters were supposed to be vulnerable spellcasters, remember? Everyone has to protect the wizard, because when the chips are down, the wizard is gonna cast lightning bolt on the big bad monster, right? Fighters get to wear cool armorWizards get to cast cool spellsarchetypes. "Why wouldn't wizards get training in armor" because it's a medieval fantasy world, not Le Harry Potter Anime Academy of Adventurers Who Can Do Everything Including Heal One Another. It's supposed to be a roleplaying game where everyone has a role to play. And armor is not just "hard clothes", it's training besides. Can you take a beating? Can you avoid an enemy swinging a big hammer at you? Are you tough enough to handle an arrow through your shoulder during a fight? This is part of what armor represents. It's not just "hard clothes" it's fighting training. It's toughness. It's just simplified into one number. Here's the wizard in Conan the Barbarian, dressed in armor. I'll let you players dress up the wizard in armor this once, but I'm gonna penalize his movement, and it's only going to improve his AC by 2 points because he doesn't move like a warrior.
>>97029956gg ez no re
>>97029956Guy, I was trolling and aiming to ratchet accelerate OP's stupidity to the point where he couldn't start saying "that's too much" and eventually look like he just wanted wizards to have literally everything in the entire game because he's an insecure little faggot who cannot accept having a limitation because that'd mean he'd have to get creative or something
Simply put play balance. A 20th level mage casting empowered/maximized fireball vs 20th level fighter with +5 great Axe dealing damage to a medium target is 180 pts vs 212 pts. I completely munchkined out the classes and assumed the fighter had perfect rolls for damage. A difference of 32 pts. If you 7 as avg die roll for a d12 then the fighter deals 177 pts on a crit. Except the fighter needs to be in melee range and the mage can do it at range and to everyone in 30 ft of the target (includes the fighter) and can do it an additional 3 times. th There needs to be a trade off. Pathfinder does allow a mage to wear armor and reduce penalties with feats. The trade off is there's a limited amount of feat slots. In your games, whatever you want to allow is fine whatever system you use. Just keep gaming balance in consideration as players will gravitate to the exploitable loopholes.
>>97030137The tradeoff is that the Fighter can do that once every six seconds and only needs to stop when they run out of enemies.The mage (I assume you mean Wizard) does so only as many times as it has available spell slots.The problem is not the balance between the classes, it is that most GMs suck and don't give the players enough of a challenge for the balance between the two classes' strengths to switch. Small amounts of combat between resource restoration favors classes with limited but more powerful resources.
>>97030083nah you're just a retard who thinks wizard = poor defense because you have no imagination and you play bad games made by idiots.
>>97030137balanced wizard with armor. >>97029985>>97030293No, the fighter has to stop when he runs out of hit points. Which will run out much faster than the wizard's spells.
>>97030394What system is that?
>>97030538P&P
>>97030382>Wizards can't have any downsides ever
>>97031048They can have whatever downsides the player chooses to have, in exchange for being good at the things the player wants to be good at.
>>97031050And defense/hit points are traditionally a weak spot for wizards, which they can I will remind you compensate for if they deign to use some portion of their arcane might to do so.But presuming the by-volume decidedly fucking largest population of players and games, casters, particularly wizards, can usually solve encounters, combat or otherwise, with a single spell, and get infinite long-range inherently magical elemental damage (cantrips) that scales with their tier of play.Fighters get Armor, weapons, and if they're lucky, a cool subclass that lets them do...more martial things, like trip people, lunge, push people, give others advantage to hit the person they hit, or impose disadvantage on hitting others except for the fighter.Fighters do not get to cast Firestorm or Forcecage or Fly.They get to...wear armor without spending feats on it.What, then, in your fucking opinion is a weakness that wizards """should""" have?
>>97031082Fighters get whatever the player playing the fighter wants their particular fighter to have, as long as they can afford it and are satisfied with the opportunity cost.Wizards get whatever the player playing the wizard wants their particular wizard to have, as long as they can afford it and are satisfied with the opportunity cost.There isn't any such thing as should.
>>97031099>Fighters get whatever the player playing the fighter wants their particular fighter to have, as long as they can afford it and are satisfied with the opportunity cost.>Wizards get whatever the player playing the wizard wants their particular wizard to have, as long as they can afford it and are satisfied with the opportunity cost.Copout fucking answer that completely ignores the reality of class-based systems>There isn't any such thing as shouldOddly enough I actually agree, but the entire OP (and in a smaller sense, D&D as it stands today and class-based systems like it in general) is predicated on that fucking premise, so I'm operating within those parameters.
>>97031112Why are you playing class-based dogshit?
>>97031115I play a variety of things, but this entire thread is very clearly predicated on/implying D&D, AKA a fucking class-based system, you double nigger, and just going "Erm ackchully, here's a classless system" is almost as bad as the GURPS evangels that trawl this board.
>>97031122Actually, all the OP says is "Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?" which doesn't imply anything of the sort, since there are plenty of systems with spellcasting that don't have classes.
>>97031129Actually, the "should" implies that wizards are disallowed the use of armor by the system since if it was a classless system, the character-that-is-functionally-a-wizard-but-not-called-that could very well just buy armor proficiency as one of their various skills or traits either during character creation or later on
>>97031136No, it doesn't imply anything of the sort, in fact.
>>97031140I accept your concession
>>97031141I accept yours.
>>97031129>Actually, all the OP says is "Why shouldn't spellcasters be allowed proper armor?" which doesn't imply anything of the sort, since there are plenty of systems with spellcasting that don't have classes.In that case, OP's question doesn't even make any sense in the context of a class-based system, since spellcasters like Clerics and Druids do get access to armor.
Wow the OP is a retard? You don't fucking say.
>>96985553They can, but like with my Artificer, I found that armor is worthless compared to other methods of defense. Like doing shenanigans to make your Wisdom sky high & then donning a monks belt designed as a spotless embedded gemstone with a handful of other enchantments. Why even wear clothes at that point. Just wear some illusionary stuff & don't worry about it
Indeed, why bother with clothes when you could just purchase the Armor power?
>>97031395that just makes it more relevant
>>97031769Shadowrun is generally fine with metal on the mage as long as there isn't any in the mage.Hell, mage should actively try to look like a muggle to not get singled out as a priority target.
>>97029985/thread.
>>97031141>>97031144Mazel tov!
>>96985553>medieval garments>modern glasses
>>97034036that's good and correct, yeah.
>>97029496>25 miles forced ruck marches in full kit will kill people not acclimated to the gear they are carryingLight infantry is anything but light.
>>97031099I've seen wizards buy plate armor for starting, to equip a fighter PC or henchman.
>>97035400>Light infantry is anything but light.
>>96985553Druid? Cleric?
>>97035636sumpter fidelis
It's too cool!
>>96985553The most common metal used for armor is dangerous against fey, you know, the magical peoples, so, it should be understandable that wearing any iron affects magic. This makes tanks viable defenders against spellcasters. Spellcasters can wear copper or bronze armor, orichalcum if you want the fancy name, which offers decent protection but also boosts magic.
>>96985553because magicians and witches don't wear armor in myths and legends. Fuck off.
Games aren't myths or legends, try again.
And you can't stop me.
>>97048262Neither should they need to, seasoned witch can soak bullets wearing nothing but his own stench.
>>96985553too much metal fucks with their casting ability/mana flow/makes their patron angry is my go to explanation
>>96991359good shit
>>96986003Truth.
>>97029496>I used the term "combat armor"Because you have no idea of what you're talking about and wanted something ambiguous that wouldn't reveal how retarded you are. We just say "body armor" or plates since that's where the weight comes from.>Your knowledge is extremely limited to the capabilities the human body actually has. Someone who has acclimated to the climate of an area and clothing of an area will sweat differently than those unacclimated to that climate and clothing.Nah.>tries to ignore his mistakeThe larping would be cute if it wasn't so embarrassing.
>>97048305Most games discussed here are about as real as the myths and legendes.
Still not myths or legends.
>>96991359>>(Trust me)did you draw this?
>>97050166Why was this deleted?
>>97059973Global Rule 8
>>96985553They need to get /fit/.
>>97062695nah.
>>96985553In my setting most weapons and armors are made from anti-magic material
>Why can't casters wear armor?That can. Take the feat or multiclass.
Or be pure caster who can wear armor without having to make any compromises at all.
>>97067591Yeah, by taking the feat.
Nope.
>>97067598Then you willingly chose not to wear armor.
Nope, you wear armor with no issues.
>>96985553Depends on the system and setting.Mechanically, because Armor usually offers tangible benefits. For D&Dfinder stuff, a high Armor Class which means actually bringing down the caster is difficult - and this isn't just a problem for GMs, but for players too. For other systems that use defense checks, this is slightly less of an issue but then you get into mechanical variety between playstyles, especially with classless RPGs. For pool-based systems, armor is usually DR, which sorta loops around to point one.Flavor-wise, there's plenty of explanations. Armor hinders movement, which prevents fluid motion for somatic components of Spells. The metals that use armor don't conduct magic well, making casting in it too troublesome to be worth it or even impossible. Armor requires training to wear properly (Yes, this is a thing IRL you uneducated troglodytes, old armor isn't the same as a modern tactical vest and even that takes some getting used to), casters have spent their time learning magic instead. Armor is heavy, and casters haven't trained their bodies to bear the weight; it would crush them alive at worst, and at best make them unable to move to cast their spells, going back to an earlier point.There's plenty of ways to justify spellcasters not wearing armor in your game or setting. You're just a lazy faggot.
>>96987195Good plate armor doesn't actually weigh much and it's distributed so evenly that you don't really notice it much. It's actually very flexible as well. The big problem with it is that it retains a shitload of heat and the helmets suffocate you. If you don't breathe properly with a visor down you will get high on your own co2 and experience what they call "helmet horror" which is a state of total braindead panic. I assume mages get hot from channeling all that magic energy or something so they can't wear armor and cast spells without cooking themselves or suffocating. Light armor made soldiers more mobile on the battlefield because they could run around more and not risk overheating. It was mainly used for skirmishers who had to run back and forth a lot.
>>96985573fpbp
>>96985553>allowedRetard that play shit games.
>>97067940>I assume mages get hot from channeling all that magic energy or something so they can't wear armor and cast spells without cooking themselves or suffocatingIf the setting has spells that require incantations, they'll be constantly yelling out the incantations, which will result in more breathing. If they also have to do hand gestures, they'll rapidly tire and thus breathe more.
>>97067940>I assume mages get hot from channeling all that magic energy or something so they can't wear armor and cast spells without cooking themselves or suffocating.Quite the opposite, metal (ideally aluminium or copper, but plain old iron should do) armor on bare skin would be excellent heat conductor helping to disperse the heat.
>>97070651heat dispersion would explain all thos edgy armor designs with lots of unnecessary spikes
>>97067940It was a pun all along?
Eighty posts left.
>>97066734With anti-magic material being a common crafting component might as well start making anti-magic nets that can be thrown on a wizard to disable him.
>>96985553it's simple if you think about it.pure caster weak. armor heavy.
>>97025140Bigby's Hand Bra
>>97081734No.
Armour requires training, so that you'll know how to move to have it deflect most blows. Especially plate, you don't just wear it and pray.
>>97086146>[chuckles cardinally]
>>96985553you can in exalted 2nd edition.its actually encouraged because you are a sitting duck while casting.
>>96985553Blocks the mana. They shouldn't wear underwear either
>>97087723Sauce?
>>97088017Looks like Tower Dungeon by Tsutomu Nihei
>>96985553Because freakshit needs to be othered.
>>96985553There needs to be easier access to their ass for their martial Bulls and half-caster femboys.
>>96985553It breaks the rock-paper-scissors relationship that dullards think is the pinnacle of strategy. (magic beats armor beats stealth beats magic)
>>96985553Balancing. Spellcasters tend to hit harder than martials so you need to make them fragile to compensate. It's really more a symptom of bad game design than a fundamental fact. D&D let magic get completely out of hand and now wizards can do everything better than any other class.
>>97088017Tower Dungeon like the other anon said, it's great
>>97087458>posts a high level cleric not a magic-user
Armor is heavy and magic-users (see: nerds) aren't good at cardio.
>>96985553wizardswearrobesanything else is cringe
>>97087723Didn't the creator made a reason why mages don't wear under clothes?
