>What is Exalted?An epic high-flying role-playing game about reborn god-heroes in a world that turned on them.Start here:http://theonyxpath.com/category/worlds/exalted/>That sounds cool, how can I get into it?Read the 3e core book (link below). For mechanics of the old edition, play this tutorial:http://mengtzu.github.io/exalted/sakuya.htmlIt’ll get you familiar with most of the mechanics.>Gosh that was fun. How do I find a group?Roll20 and the Game Finder General here on /tg/. good luck>Resources for Third Edition>3E Core and Splatshttps://www.mediafire.com/folder/b54o6teut3fx6/Exalted_3e>Errata for Third Editionhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1n3ooTmopm3CBxW5jwPp1761xsaIccea-5XIhVM_PQEc/edit>Other Ex3 Resourceshttps://pastebin.com/fG1mLMdu>Resources for Older Editionshttps://pastebin.com/BXSGuFdQ>Current Quixalted Extended QE Version (Fanmade Supplement)https://files.catbox.moe/rjgmo5.pdf>Optional Quixalted Exaltshttps://www.mediafire.com/file/jg86yrewnhx2ov3/QE_Reject3eExaltHomebrew.pdf/file>Exalted Demake/Black Vault (Now with updates):https://pastebin.com/Tt1PjuYthttps://pastebin.com/qHRW9N51>collection of Exalted Hackshttps://pastebin.com/gtZnycJs>stuff that might be interestinghttps://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/the-exalted-thread-with-no-original-ideas.317216/Last thread: >>96984627 TQ: Vibe check on the new Infernals, of course! If you want something more specific: if you had to make an Akuma/Warlock Pact, who would you go with and what would you be looking for?
I like them a lot so far!>mistreatment of lower castes>PCs encouraged to participate>one of the examples of Infernal candidates is a drunk incelI'll accept an apology from everyone that thought they'd go too traumabrain.
>>97032271>I'll accept an apology from everyone that thought they'd go too traumabrain.First post the pdfs so we can see proof of this. Second considering how their castes were described in everything before hand as the literal SJW exalted there was no reason for people to assume they weren't going to be complete dogshit.
>>97032143I just started reading the first preview, but Infernals seem alright so far. Not a fan of keeping the antagonism for antagonism's sake angle for the Ebon Dragon, though.
>>97032324This. I haven't heard anything that doesn't make them sound like a waste of page space.
>>97032414The new version of akuma that was posted at the end of last thread seemed like a big improvement to me. I much prefer making a dark deal with infernal powers and having it be real on both sides (as in the early 1e version) over the 1e Alchemicals and later/2e version where the person making the deal stops existing, replaced with whatever the demon makes of you, regardless of what the deal was.
>two free Eclipse charms>free mutations>free Sorcerous Means>+1 Essence to learn native charms>immunity to Shaping (Soul)>free merits/powers equal to a Solar circle workingBesides having to roleplay as doing what a Demon tells you to do once a story, is there any reason not to take Hellish Investiture asap for any character
>>97032471I actually hate that. Akuma were brilliant antagonists and I honestly would have liked Infernals better if they were Super Akuma instead of the weird corrupt solar but also primordial shit we got
>>97032515Honestly no. It needs to get nerfed like fucking crazy
>>97032515I'm banning it instantly unless they tone it way down or introduce some harsh as fuck drawbacks. What the fuck, man
>>97032520>I actually hate that. Akuma were brilliant antagonists and I honestly would have liked Infernals better if they were Super Akuma instead of the weird corrupt solar but also primordial shit we gotI also would have preferred Infernals better if they were Super Akuma, or even Just Akuma, with the exceptional part being the sudden influx of Solar Akuma that've suddenly cropped up. Especially with the old plot point that some demonic taint from Akuma-hood sticks around for a reincarnation or two. What I'm saying is that I would prefer this kind of Akuma to 2e's Akuma, especially and specifically as it relates to me wanting Akuma to be Infernals, and thus PC-playable.>>97032515>Besides having to roleplay as doing what a Demon tells you to do once a story, is there any reason not to take Hellish Investiture asap for any characterI see two main downsides. First is that demons will know where you are and have good information on you at all times, and with demon cults the way they are that's a lot of plots that'll start exploiting your presence even without the direct influence. Second is that you can't take a second Infernal Investiture, and the top tier one is N/A and unbuyable in chargen, so getting in ASAP locks you out of long-term payoff from a better pact - though 2CD you can theoretically go beat up are generally going to be more flexible with you than 3CD who you probably cannot.On the upside you don't even have to roleplay as doing what the demon tells you if they don't respect you properly, since the once-per-story influence is just social influence, working under the social influence system. I'm pretty sure we can assume the demon's going to surpass your Resolve, but 1wp and even Unacceptable Influence works to protect you if they don't pay attention to your Intimacies. We should assume they know your Intimacies too. That leads to a kind of fun dynamic where the quality of your character matters even in a demonic pact with tyrannical beings.
>>97032471>as in the early 1e versionBefore we can proceed can somebody post both versions of 1e?
>>97032982Player's Guide pg86 for the early section, but it spreads across like four pages and I ain't copy/pasting that. Frankly you should be thankful I even tracked it down - scanning through non-indexed books is a pain in my ass, and even though I knew that it should've been in Player's Guide I think I went past it three or four times and had an aside of checking half the other books in 1e after the second time I skimmed over. Buh.To paraphrase it, Investiture of Infernal Glory redistributes XP like the 2e version and the Exalt is enslaved, unable to disobey their master or other Yozi. They still have their nature/intimacies and it could be said their soul. The infernal taint is carried into future reincarnations, with their next incarnation being forced into 5pt Throwback as a slave to the Yozi, and each incarnation afterwards reducing the Flaw by two. Akuma are treated as princes and kings in Hell, the exact same treatment the whole Green Sun Prince / rockstar of hell thing in 2e is based on.The Autochthonia revision is pg72 of that book, first paragraph, where actually Akuma are just eaten and Exalted demons are shit out instead. The strong implication that demons can be Exalted is followed up on not at all.>RECYCLING OTHER EXALTED>The Deathlords crafted their Abyssal Exalted by ritually tainting Solar Essences. The templates for this blasphemy were the akuma, Exalted who gave themselves to be consumed and excreted by demon lords asprinces among slaves. Infernal Exalted gain some of the properties and magic of demons as they become artificial souls of their masters. Those changed by Third Circle Demons belong to the Second Circle, while the rare Chosen devoured by one of the Yozis (such as Dukantha, see Blood and Salt, pp. 91-92) belong to the Third Circle. Akuma lack subsidiary souls and cannot be bound, as their demon halves are permanently bound to the tattered shreds of their Exalted halves.
>>97033150>who gave themselves to be consumed and excreted by demon lords asprinces among slaves.I think this is just purple prose.
>>97033197Keep reading. They become Second Circle Demons. Demons don't have human souls, and it talks about how the demon and Exaltation are 'halves' - no hun or po. The human that Exalted is gone.
>>97033247>as their demon halves are permanently bound to the tattered shreds of their Exalted halves.Enough of their human selves seem to remain.>Dukantha in blood and sailThis dude is (in)famous for having an Infernal exaltation in that book.
I find it funny how they assert that Investitures can exceed Solar Circle Workings in power, then proceed to give absolutely no clarification on what that even entails, merely that it's apparently only possible within the confines of Malfeas. It reminds me of how there is this nebulous "beyond Legendary Size" category that the game completely refuses to define in any capacity.
>>97033285>This dude is (in)famous for having an Infernal exaltation in that book.As the first mention of Infernal Exalted at all, she'd be running on the first version I mentioned. She's written up in Blood & Salt, and that version's in Player's Guide, which was published right afterwards, a month later - they were written at the same time. Exalted: Autochthonians came out a little more than a year later, and in 1e development that's a long time for changes to perculate and/or headcanons to diverge.
>>97032632>I also would have preferred Infernals better if they were Super Akuma, or even Just Akuma, with the exceptional part being the sudden influx of Solar Akuma that've suddenly cropped up. Especially with the old plot point that some demonic taint from Akuma-hood sticks around for a reincarnation or two. What I'm saying is that I would prefer this kind of Akuma to 2e's Akuma, especially and specifically as it relates to me wanting Akuma to be Infernals, and thus PC-playable.On this, I think Infernals (and Abyssals too) are just wasting their potential by having to tie them to the Solars. They are so much less interesting because in the end, they're just Solars again. This has something that's been in the back of my mind for years now
>>97032143i'll tell you when i see the manuscript
>>97033492You can get the previews by backing the kickstarter right now
>>97032143Weekly Update>Art DirectionInfernals (BK) – Launched on Backer Kit>Layout QueueAlchemicals – Some tweaks being made to artwork>PressExigents – It’s about that time: talking with printer about Deluxe printing specs for filesit seems they're willing to try printing again. from the meeting notes, they've found a relative calm spot and are trying with a domestic printer to see whether they can avoid the tariff bat, and the exigents bundle is being used as a proverbial canary in the mineshaft. we'll see how it happensinfernals is on backerkit of course. donate if you give a shit. anyone providing a manuscript would be appreciatedhttps://www.backerkit.com/call_to_action/13111d66-b3cd-4af1-8981-a1857089de78/landingotherwise another relatively sparse week. next week will be a holiday so it may also be small
>>97033325>As the first mention of Infernal Exalted at all, she'd be running on the first version I mentioned. She's written up in Blood & Salt, and that version's in Player's Guide,She? Isn't Dukantha a dude?
>>97033596Yes, misremembered. Honestly, how often do you think about Dakantha? I didn't really care much for the Lintha even when I was running for the West.
>>97033612Dukantha was outright mentioned as a dude in the other post.
>>97033552Before I post, are manuscripts from OPP crowdfunds clean?I may be busy a lot so I won't post the manuscripts on time.
>>97033653>Before I post, are manuscripts from OPP crowdfunds clean?From what I know, they aren't. So have them washed thoroughly to make sure you won't be doxed or OPP try some legal action of some shit.
>>97033150>The "Infernals are artificial souls of Yozis" thing goes back that farHuh.>>97033612>how often do you think about Dakantha?I think about Gorol more often and I haven't thought about him all year until now. Is Gorol retconned in 3e? There's some new dude called Feng Huang (they changed his last name from Morningstar to Dawnglory) who is the first warlock now, which was Gorol's entire defining trait. I mean, back when warlocks were Akuma.>>97033840Serious question, how does washing PDFs even work and is there a site you can just do it yourself on? Is it enough just to compress the PDF and call it a day?
>>97033854The manuscript previews are all unidentifiable to individuals, and there are no consequences to posting them since the massive backlash to the original core book shenanigans. That said, don't post them, make the penny-pinchers wait.
>>97034086The Primordials could communicate directly, in becoming Yozi and Neverborn they lost that ability. Otherwise how would Autobot and Gaia hang with the gang?
Now that I think about it, if the yozi are incapable of directly communication, how does their relationship with eac other and gods work? Or them playing the games of divinity? Was the primordial war just a big misunderstanding?>>97033854#>HuhIt started with Dukantha.
>>97033533>You can get the previews by backing the kickstarter right nowI have proudly never spent a dime on this awful edition and I never will. These shit devs will never get my money
>>97032515Role-playing niches."Okay, so is there anyone here who didn't make a deal with the Yozis?"Also, minor and major investiture can be kicked out by an Exalted exorcist with the "I go inside your spirit and clean house" Charm for each respective type of Exalted. So it's fairly easy to just put someone in demon juice rehab, requiring that they try all over again, but the demon is pissed off and/or frightened this time and doesn't want to risk it. Or you get kicked up to the third circle and the only option left is Defining Investiture...
>>97034841Protip: Wanna play a heroic mortal? Stat him like a Solar minus the Charms. Storyteller needs to stat a heroic mortal? Stat him like a Solar minus the Charms.Never fails.
>>97035873> a Solar minus the Charms
>>97034127>It started with Dukantha.No. The "infernals are artificial souls of Yozis" thing starts with Exalted: The Autochthonians. There are no implications of it in Player's Guide or Blood and Salt, where Dukantha was introduced, and Infernals/Akuma are not mentioned earlier. This was explained with references earlier ITT.
>>97035961It is literally in his Blood and Salt writeup that he's a 3CD and that's why he's not allowed out at Calibration.
>>97036066It is literally not. He comes out every Calibration but it's not said that's the only time he can come out, nor is it in his writeup that he's a 3CD.
>>97036220it saying so, in his description in the gods and monsters chapter, he is only able to be in Creation for a brief time.
>>97036303>it saying so, in his description in the gods and monsters chapter, he is only able to be in Creation for a brief time.Yes, anon, we're both looking at the same place, pg91-93. Only being in Creation for a short time is not a telltale sign of something being a Third Circle Demon. 3CD aren't limited to appearing only during Calibration, that's purely a limit on when third circle sorcery's binding spell can be used as far as summoning goes. Likely he can only be in Creation on Calibration because he's a known Akuma and Heaven's keeping an eye out for him. He can't stay in Creation outside Calibration because he'll be struck by a thunderbolts and get Heaven's armies called down on him (and the Lintha) if he's in Creation while the gods aren't on holiday. It's also possible Kimbery just told him to.You're extrapolating that he's 3CD but it's a faulty deduction. It's not actually said directly, in the book, and there are both better explanations with the information given and some of the information we are given is evidence against the idea that he's a third circle demon (like him appearing in Creation without a summons, no iteration of Akuma making them 3CD, and every 3CD being way way stronger than him).
>>97036672In the page describing his unique powers, it mentions that he is only able to stay in Creation for a short while, and in other parts mention that he only acts during calibration.
>>97036672Forgot to mention, the smiting season only happens when he summons kimbery herself.
Advice for desginging Evocations? I've read Arms of the Chosen and it's been little help.
>>97037115If you want a little more help, read the exigents book's advice on charm design.It's not that much more help.Honestly, exception-based rules design is a pretty terrible model.
>>97037115Just keeping am idea in mind.>Making artifacts is more of an art than a craft.T. Holdorke is a lost to time podcast.
>>97037067Neither of those traits are traits of 3CD, anon. 3CD can stay in Creation unbound as long as they like, and can appear in Creation outside Calibration. You're clinging to this idea that they can only appear during Calibration to justify them being 3CD based purely on the spell, which doesn't reflect their normal circumstances.
Do only Immaculate monks have access to Martial Arts in Lookshy too or is it something only the Realm does for whatever reason?
>>97037321If you're talking about the Immaculate Dragon Styles, they originated during the Shogunate era so they're available to any of the other surviving branches of the Shogunate in addition to the Realm. Immaculates occasionally teach people outside the order these martial arts, so its not strictly limited to the monks.
>>97037321No. For starters, the Immaculate Faith in Lookshy doesn't involve native monks. A few imperial monks are stationed there, but they're from the Immaculate Order instead of the Immaculate Faith. Beyond that, Immaculates don't have a monopoly on the Immaculate Styles in the Realm either. Dragonblood go to learn them at the Cloister of Wisdom without becoming monks regularly - to quote, only a small fraction of the students of the Cloister of Wisdom ever join the Immaculate Order, but all who study there benefit from the Immaculates' wisdom. This includes intense training in Immaculate martial art styles.
NTA but since we're talking about Lookshy what's their counterpart for the All-Seeing Eye?
>>97037436The Security Directorate is the most direct parallel to the All-Seeing Eye as an agency, though they're more internal/military counterintelligence rather than running spy networks. They also have the Intelligence Directorate, who do the spy networks, and who have a lot more of a leaning towards summoning and wielding spirits to their advantage. Funnily enough the best and most reliable and available information Lookshy gets is something that isn't paralleled in the Realm at all: having good reliable relationships with their partner states. Lookshy's regional defense arrangements combined with their excellent post service are actually pretty great at keeping them up to date on the goings-on in the Scavenger Lands.
>>97032515>sell your sour soul to a Yozi for "greater than Solar Working" power>travel to Malfeas>become retroactively anointed as one of the Cosmic Exalted>refuse to explain>leave>>97034121To be fair, Luna is crazy so it's possible Gaia and Luna fell in love while being batshit in ways that just happened to complement each other. As for Autobot, strictly speaking he could at least tell the Divine Ministers a general idea of his intentions to bring forth to the Incarnae under the current paradigm.
>>97037568>To be fair, Luna is crazy so it's possible Gaia and Luna fell in love while being batshit in ways that just happened to complement each other. As for Autobot, strictly speaking he could at least tell the Divine Ministers a general idea of his intentions to bring forth to the Incarnae under the current paradigm.Don't think too much into it, this is just the writers really hating the idea of the players dancing with Malfeas
>>97037593The writers confuse me deeply. They want you to just take some things for granted then deeply overthink others, like Exaltation simultaneously being an eternal impulse the Sun physically cannot stop himself from doing anymore than he can play the Games of Divinity but NOT automated, all because they want you to know every Solaroid is most definitely Exalted at the will of the Sun (even when it makes no sense, as if he has some agency in anointing new Abyssals or Infernals)
>>97037600>They want to change idea A, but idea A is tied to idea B, that is in turn tied to idea C & D, that are...Some people really dislike the view of the sun being a nihilistic hedonistic neet, so they changed stuff to clean his image, and also validate the players who disliked not being personally chosen by the sun.Similar to the ones brought by Exigents, those changes crashed hard with the world built with neet sun in mind.
>>97037593>Don't think too much into it, this is just the writers really hating the idea of the players dancing with MalfeasIf they're going to do this then they should have commit properly by removing all jouten you could reasonably talk to in any way other than plot-device style whispers/revelation into third circle demons. The Brass Dancer as a third circle demon, the Ebon Dragon never downsizes but there is a shadow of a man running around who can deliver his will, Adorjan has a third circle nightmare wind that brings thoughts of her into people's dreams and mixes them to make children, etc etc. Obviously this would be bad and the correct path to take is to just let people dance with the Dancer, but it'd be better than the half-and-half fiff faff they're doing now.
>>97037652Yeah.Fundamentally, the problem is that the sort of devs that have been working on exalted for a long time simply doesn't compare to the quality of those that set it in motion. They mostly don't have ideas as good, and when they do, they can't put them together as well.Which says something, because early 1st edition was pretty schizo and unsure of what it wanted to be in a lot of ways itself.
Is RotSE really that bad or is hating on it for its own sake just a popular pasttime?
>>97037709It is really, sincerely that bad. Bad enough that I have to cite page numbers and screencap text to make people believe me when I tell them just how bad it is. I went on a readthrough last year just to actually say that I've read it and not just skimmed the worst bits, and holy shit it's actually worse than people who only know some of the worst points think. Most people only refer to the Ebon Dragon writeup if they care about mechanics, or the Lotus Massacre or Alchemical diplomatic conference if they care about how it butchers every other character to wank infernals and drive a nonsensical narrative, but there's so much more going on.
>>97037726My favorite part was the underworld assassins
>>97037600It only works IF you change the lore about Abyssals and Infernals being twisted Solar Exaltations. Especially in the new lore when those things are more like actual blessings or enlightenment instead of Soul Widgets that can be tinkered with. I know some people will clutch their pearls, but i personally approve of it.
>>970378202e!Infernals were mostly doing their own things, and some anon(s) talked about how cool it would be if the Liminals' body horror was the basis of 3e's Abyssals instead of removed to become a separate splat.
>>97037868That's what I'm getting at. Not only does the idea no longer fit with the current vision of what exaltation is, but it takes away from both the splat and Solars every time they want to make a nod to it. All the Solaroids would greatly benefit from not actually being related.
>>97037820>>97037868>>97037911I think it's fine to do away with the corrupted exaltation angle. I think it was dreamed up in the beginning to make sure that you had antagonists that were on your level, and also to please the existing VtM fans in the user base. I think it has become a straight jacket to the corrupt Exalts and it definitely steals a lot of Solar's thunder, and that's before we get into how exaltation has been somewhat reimagined.
>>97038055>5 Paradoxbux have been deposited in your account.
>>97038077As if those are worth anything. If I was shilling I would be telling you to play VtM2.
>>97037726Well?
How do Raksha work in 3e? Do they have intimacies or Graces or what?
>>97037709I mean... the writing is fine and art is okay and the names in it are cool. It was also the end of a meta plot so your enjoyment depends on how much you like that.Gotta be honest though, all those things considered I still think it was pretty terrible. It did a terrible job imo of what the players should be doing and what they should be fighting and how to make that fun. All for some metaplot wank.
>>97038625>metaplot wankYozi material in a nutshell. I said it before and people got mad at me but I feel like the obsession with the Titans that are supposed to be fucking irrelevant is the result of their stupid official forum influence. You could write tomes with all the yozi yap that was on that thing. And I get it, you know. They originally left a lot of stuff kind of blank or mysterious. But holy shit, RoTSE was like every stupid fan theory rolled up into a mediocre burrito.
>>97038624They just make up generic spiritual powers of arbitrary scope, theme and capability, slap them onto a statblock they think a lobotomised player can handle, and call it a Raksha.I'm sorry. Graceful Wicked Masques was by no means a perfect product, but it has been replaced with literally just random bullshit that, if you close one eye and squint, kind of looks like a Raksha.>intimaciesYes, like everyone else.>GracesGraces do not exist. Like Shinma, the 3e devs think they are too complex and will scare away smallbrained players.
>>97038960You have to admit that they were stupid before.
>>97038683RotSe because it forces everyone to be retarded to enact muh heckin' kino reverse Usurpation, but I love Yozi yap. For RotSE itself, it's a bit of a guilty pleasure in the sense I recognise it's an objectively bad product overall but there are bits and pieces I like to take and play with-devoid of the original context they're presented in.>>97037709I still remember how the Ebon Dragon gouging a Black Spiral Dancers reference into Creation somehow brings Gaia to the brink of death after all those other writers trying to stress Gaia is no longer Creation and please stop treating Exalted as the oWoD's prehistory even though WE OURSELVES will continue making cute little in-jokes to that effect, to the extent of literally naming Infernal castes after DtF demon houses and having Grand Maw cameo in 3e as a necromancy tutor.What I'm trying to say is that the Exalted writing team has a serious problem with shooting itself in the foot while trying to accomplish their purported goals.>>97037638>Some people really dislike the view of the sun being a nihilistic hedonistic neet, so they changed stuff to clean his image, and also validate the players who disliked not being personally chosen by the sun.You know what.Maybe the anons complaining about taking forum yap too seriously have a point.Because if that's how it is, the problem seems to be that like Progenitive Essence and the Law of Diminishment, they are trying to solve a problem that only exists for the terminally online.>>97037820I would be open to like, "Solar-tier" being it's own tier of Exaltation powerlevel above "Celestial-tier" (like how Solar Sorcery is more powerful than Celestial Sorcery, natch). After that then yeah, you can do whatever you like as long as Sun Guys, Death Guys and Demon Guys are all roughly equal in tactical utility though with their own niches and specialities.
>>97038970They were. I just don't think what has come after them is an improvement for any situation other than it's 15 minutes before a game and you just realised you've done literally no preparation for it, and need to whip out an antagonist NPC right fucking now. A lot of things in 1e and 2e are objectively fucking retarded, but also captured my imagination in a way that motivated me to put in the work to homebrew them into something functional. They were stupid, but fun. 3e has things I genuinely like such as Karvara and Gajam-Un (apart from his pointlessly comprehensive immortality) and sorcerous workings, but they're so far and few between I'd rather cheerypick and backport them than engage with it's increasingly incoherent creative vision. The rest is just retarded, as well as unfun. And numinous.
>>97037638I definitely feel like making Sun a nihilistic hedonistic neet is swinging too far in the other direction as a reaction to the late 2E Basically Jesus version of him.>>97038055I think it'd be good to do something other than the corrupted Solars thing if Abyssals and Infernals were being introduced as new kinds of Exalts to the game. I think that, with 3E editions of precedence now, it'd feel free if hypothetical 4E we might get in the future would change that. Obviously new editions are allowed to change things, and should, otherwise there would be no point in having a new edition. There's also much to be said for slaughtering sacred cows. Still, a new edition of a game with established lore should respect its roots, so to speak, to build on what came before, and to think any changes to the previously established lore through very carefully. Even changes that are individually fairly minor can in the aggregate change a setting more than was intended or is desirable. I don't think Infernals or Abyssals something other than corrupted Solars is very high on the list of things to change if we someday were to get an edition with the balls to put those sacred cows to the knife, and I think that changing their origin would only be beneficial if the new take on them was something truly exceptional.>>97038683While I'm in the school of thought that fleshing out things that aren't that relevant to most actual games can be good and make the setting feel more alive, I kind of agree about this.
>>97039060>it'd feel freeNo idea what kind of a brainfart I had here, but "feel weird" was what I meant to say.
>>97039060I more or less agree with you on most things except the premise of 4E existing at all. I'm just tired of all the bullshit. From the devs not knowing what they're doing, to Onyx Path kneecapping them, to the most vocal part of the online fandom becoming an autistic hivemind incapable of accepting the game has any flaws at all while simultaneously insisting their headcanon is the one and only true interpretation of the game. It's been literal years, and while Exalted is technically still high-flying too much has been sacrificed to get to this point for the flight to feel worth it.If they announce a 4e, I'm tapping the fuck out.
>>97039072>I more or less agree with you on most things except the premise of 4E existing at all.>Essence quietly whistling in the background
>>97038998>I would be open to like, "Solar-tier" being it's own tier of Exaltation powerlevel above "Celestial-tier" (like how Solar Sorcery is more powerful than Celestial Sorcery, natch). After that then yeah, you can do whatever you like as long as Sun Guys, Death Guys and Demon Guys are all roughly equal in tactical utility though with their own niches and specialities.Let me open with saying that I would agree to that sort of compromise. I'd rather have 3 distinct Exalts instead of 2 (light/dark mode and linux). With that said, I think it's just not thematically appropriate for Yozi and Neverborn creations to be on the same level as a Solar Exalt. Why? They fucking lost. Some by armies, some by duels, but all their cosmic power could not stop the Exalted as a whole, but especially not the Sun's Chosen. And that's also a big draw to being a Solar. YOU are the pinnacle of power in the setting, or you will be some day. Every time we make something as good as Solars, it takes that fundamental draw and excitement away from them. That sucks, and it especially sucks when people do that and then turn around and say Solars are boring. People like Abyssals and Infernals for their themes and interesting interactions and I don't think they would like them any less if they were like Celestial+ instead of Actually Solar.Sorry I've been keeping this in for years
>>97039072I do think it'd be best if Exalted IP changed ownership, though obviously things could also get a lot worse than they are now. There'd definitely need to be a new set of devs. I don't think the current Exalted team is lacking talent, necessarily as there are actually cool ideas in 3E and parts that are written well, but the overall vision is the problem. Or maybe lack of vision - my impression is that the current crop of developers and writers is both too fond of 2E to really make a break from it and too embarrassed by being fond of it to really play their fondness straight and continue on the same track. I'm not bothered by most changes 3E has made, but I think there's just sort of a confused, half-assed thing going on where the edition can't decide whether it wants to do something bold and new or to stick with the old and safe and doesn't really do either, but one thing it does know is that it doesn't want to be edgy even when edge would be needed. I think Holdemorke might've actually made for decent devs if they'd had a good, strong editor to keep them in check.
>>97039078I have been told so many times Essence does not count and I should NOT judge any potential ramifications for 3e, lore or otherwise, off it, that you know what?Essence does not, in fact, count in my book.>>97039085Okay that's a bit more of a controversial opinion especially when the whole point of Abyssals in particular is to be unprecedented harbingers of a force unknown to the Solars during the Primordial War, but I could still see some room for compromise as long as we can at least agree Abyssals and Infernals should have capabilities and potential avenues for power that Solars simply do not. Sure, let the Solars roll the most dice and hit the hardest for the smallest amount of Essence, but they'll never evolve into Devil-Tigers (which strictly speaking aren't a flat upgrade on being a Solar given the Solars route the Primordial Host before E6) or rule death nearly as absolutely as Abyssals.If we can agree that at the very least Abyssals and Infernals should be more powerful than Lunars and Sidereals, then I think there's room for compromise.>>97039091Utterly, utterly agreed. Give it to someone who wants to wipe the slate clean AND has a better vision to replace it with, or to someone who embraces 1e and 2e's sheer gonzo-hell, have the balls to admit it's supposed to be oWoD's past again.But if I've learned anything from 3e, it's that half-measures are worse than doing nothing.
>>97039085I think a lot of people forget after playing for so long that the selling point of solar exalted isn't being yellow, it's that the game sells you on the world being fundamentally fucked and only *you* can save it. And then you get into playing and realize that this stance has been negotiated down over years of complaining.
>>97039078You mean the Storypath Ultra playtest they tricked us into paying for?
>>97039106>Sure, let the Solars roll the most dice and hit the hardest for the smallest amount of Essence, but they'll never evolve into Devil-Tigers (which strictly speaking aren't a flat upgrade on being a Solar given the Solars route the Primordial Host before E6) or rule death nearly as absolutely as Abyssals.I agree, but this is something that conceptually needs to be policed very carefully. It's the same kind of thinking that got people to say things like Solars shouldn't do army stuff as good as Dragonbloods. Unique mechanics are fine, they can even be quite strong. But better mechanics is different and we need to remember that.
>>97039106>I have been told so many times Essence does not count and I should NOT judge any potential ramifications for 3e, lore or otherwise, off it, that you know what?>Essence does not, in fact, count in my book.Who's been telling you porkies? I think every other mechanic from Essence made it into 3e, and I can't think of a lore piece that didn't make it through (if toned down).>>97039113>You mean the Storypath Ultra playtest they tricked us into paying for?Yeah, that's the one.
>>97039123>Who's been telling you porkies?Discord users on the fancord, the same kind who have gone full parasocial with the devs. It's what's made me intensely suspicious about any and all discourse around the game.>>97039121Completely fair. That much, I can agree as a good compromise. I personally would prefer Solars, Abyssals and Infernals to be overall the same level of world-changing power but with separate niches they're individually better at (with Solars by far as the best generalists due to not being CoDs, nor the other kind of CoD, nor compelled by Yozis/whatever you end up deciding Resonance actually is if presumably not the Neveborn literally breathing down their neck, nor really burdened by any kind of expectation by higher power "benefactors" other than their sunny patron's intrinsic urge to excel Virtuously)
If we're talking about killing sacred cows then I want Solars to be sun themed rather than human+. And Lunars to be the Wyld exalted rather than the animal exalted but that's a whole different thing.
>>97039121Dammit, post cut off. Just wanted to add that I can still see the game being more or less functional done your way as long as the policing is, indeed, very careful. I think there are a lot of things in Exalted, in every edition, that while bad overall could be good if only done with better execution.>>97039149Both sound good to me, although I think 3e has noticeably shifted Solars towards being sun-themed (and sometimes, Sidereal-themed. Fucking Soul Reprisal. Fucking Cup Boils Over. Fucking Dual Magnus Prana) what with the flying Charm and holy brands in the Brawl tree.
>>97039085Its cool when the strong good guy has an equally strong evil guy to fight, so the Abyssals and Infernals should stay as corrupted Solar Exaltations. If you can't take joy in being a Solar or are upset when other people don't like Solars as much as you, that's your problem.
>>97039174Nah. I will always remember when someone asked if they could outdance an infernal and the community overwhelmingly said no because they weren't "made of dance" or whatever. They have to be a little unequal so that solars have their niche protection.
>>97039149>Lunars to be the Wyld exalted rather than the animal exaltedYes.>I want Solars to be sun themed rather than human+.Absolutely not. I'd prefer to strip the sunlight themes away from Solars further, or even entirely. The human+ powerset is one of the main ways they draw people into the game and frankly is one of the few things making them worthwhile.
>>97039182>the communityThe community does not matter. The strong good guy must have a strong bad guy to fight and its cooler if that bad guy was once a good guy.
>>97039149Why not just let Lunars be moon-themed if Solars are to be sun-themed? Keep the Wyld out of it. I think defining what Sun and Moon are about in Creation's context would be a necessary starting point for that, though. Like, Sun's probably more than a big ball of fire warming Creation here - actually, is it even what warms the world, or is that the Essence of Fire flowing throughout Creation? Does Moon reflect the light of the Sun here or shine with its own light? Anyways, I think that defining the themes, qualities and mystic properties of sun(light) and moon(light) and then working on that basis to write Solars and Lunars might be the way to go.
>>97039189...as a starting point, I would like to get a primer on what being "moon themed" actually entails. Because I'm not sure 3e communicates it well, or that it's as obvious as what being sun-themed means.
>>97039188I don't care what images or platitudes you oost, I know that in order to play a game you need to have people in the community. So the community does matter. Especially in a game with dwindling player base like this.
>>97039198Lunars have never really been Moon themed. It's always just been werewolf remnants and weaker versions of other people's abilities. For me, the Moon is illusion, mystery, purity, intense emotion/madness, the passive/feminine.
>>97039198>primerAs I said, you should start with defining what it means in Creation's context. Personally, I'd like there to be some kind of a contrast between sun and moon, and also there to be more to the sun and than light and warmth. Sunlight enforcing the natural laws of Creation, drawing tight, clear borders between different realms of existence (making it more difficult for the Wyld to act on Creation, preventing ghosts from passing into Creation or living in the Underworld and so on) and sort of making things more "real" (more set-in-stone, harder to change through magic) would make sense to me and mostly fit what's already there. Letting moonlight, in contrast, soften the hard edges of reality, draw different realms together and allow passage between them, make things more malleable, maybe soften the borders between dreams and reality too, would also make sense to me and feel like a thematically appropriate counterpart to sunlight. That's at least one possible pair of definitions for sun themes and moon themes, and one possible pair of basis for Solar themes and Lunar themes.
>>97039211Intense emotion and passivity don't seem like the kinds of themes that go together.
>>97039189Lunars being Wyld theme is both inspired by Luna and also gives them a theme and a role that's very separate from Solars. Being the animal exalted is also lame as shit. Rather than spending all this time sitting on their asses accomplishing nothing in their war against the Realm the Lunars in order to protect Creation have forged their own kingdoms and empires out in the borderlands and in the Wyld itself. They have access to the most potent wyld shaping of all the exalted.
>>97039226Intense doesn't always mean that you're going to be the instigator. But not every single thing has to be true at the same time, not every solar charm invokes all of their own themes.
>>97039233I didn't suggest that Lunars should be animal-themed, nor that they should be focused on warring with the Realm. I siggested that Lunar writing should start with defining what Moon's about in Creation and work from that to figure out what Moon's chosen should be like.
It was revealed to me by Essence that the reason why I thought Solars were boring was because they only had the skeleton of an Exalted. The design of Solar charms from 1e to 3e was limited to baseline wuxia trope fulfillment. You could do wall running and punch through steel and swing your sword very fast, but since all of that is critical to the genre, what do Solars have to themselves? Largely nothing but the highest dice pools and a few piddly charms that hurt creatures of darkness just a little more than usual. The subconscious understanding that they were not truly fully formed like the other Exalted is what drives the insecurity of certain fans when they "take away" something from Solars (read: have something at all instead of nothing). 3e's Solar charms, being handled by very uncreative people, addressed this by pilfering a few Sidereal effects and calling it a day. However, Essence, by making it so that the wuxia baselines into Universal Charms everyone can use allowed the Solars to actually *become* something for once. In Essence, their charms revolve around their Virtues; a Solar fighting for what they believe in is nigh-unstoppable, and their social charms make converts of even the most stubborn to their cause. Their most powerful techniques reach further than the other Exalted, but make it harder for them to be ideologically flexible, penalizing them for actions not in accordance with their Virtues.
>>97039236>Intense doesn't always mean that you're going to be the instigatorNo, but often it does.> But not every single thing has to be true at the same time, not every solar charm invokes all of their own themes.That is absolutely true. I just don't really see passivity particularly associated with the Moon, myself, and I don't see it as a particularly useful theme in terms of figuring out what Lunar powers should be like.
>>97039245It's a classical association that has a lot to do with being traditionally seen as feminine. But with that said, I would envision it in terms of things like favoring redirects or evasive maneuvers (physically or otherwise) instead of raw grit and toughness.
>>97039263That seems like stretching the definition of "passive" by quite a bit. I mean, I think that, say, dodging a strike is pretty straighforwardly less passive than just taking that strike and surviving it unscathed through sheer toughness.
>>97039316 to be frank, that kind of thinking is really trying to dissect concepts down into uselessness. Not contesting by getting out of the way is what most people would consider passive instead of taking it head on and challenging it
Also consider that a lot of it is just flavor. For example, a damage soak that instead of bolstering your actual toughness in fluff, it makes the strike pass through you, rippling your form like a reflection on the water.
>>97039364I really doubt most people would consider doing something (for instance, evading) passive and doing nothing (for instance, just taking a hit) active. I might be dissecting the concept of passivity down into uselessness, I'm not going to deny that, but similarly you're defining "passive" and "active" in ways that dilute those concepts to uselessness. The root issue here is that concept of passivity is just sort of inherently useless in this context. Solution's very simply to just not have passivity associated either with the Moon or Lunars in Creation's context, and to not try to base any part of Lunar powers on that concept.
>>97039233>Being the animal exalted is also lame as shit.I think this specific piece of criticism has crippled the argument for years. It gets brought out and repeated every time, but the thing is that some people really respect the power of animals and appreciate them as symbols of strength, wisdom, and so on. Saying they're lame makes you enemies and polarizes opinions on Lunars, because it's very subjective and has people on both sides of the isle.What should be used in it's place is 'Animals are relevant in chargen, fouling playtesting, but don't scale up to the level we want Lunars to be able to play at (ignore that the reason they don't scale is because we keep saying Lunars can't use anything high level), so Lunars should be themed around the Wyld first and animals second if ever'.
>>97039233>Lunars being Wyld theme is both inspired by LunaLuna is not of the Wyld or does much of anything with it beyond hunting and killing that which emerges from it.
>>97039403Personally I think you just have a very specific problem with the terminology, when I was just using it as a more neutral term for feminine, which is the traditional association.
>>97039420Changing that wouldn't be hard either, and would definitely be part of a dramatic Lunar shift towards Wyld affinity.
>>97039431Don't care for the attempts to make them the "Wyld Exalts" at all, to be honest. Really infringes upon the space the raksha have for themselves in the setting.
>>97039211I think this is a good list to start with. Pretty much anything Moon related has a lot of these keywords.
>>97039436>rakshaRaksha exist to be bullied. They also have virtue/fae-based powers rather than powers which actually help engaging with the Wyld as the Wyld, with the sole exception of wyld stunts, which basically (actually?) none of their charms enhance. Shaping combat isn't really a wyld thing so much as it is a virtue-based raksha thing, for example. For another, their wyld artifact forging and creature-making don't use the wyld, they're fae having sex or being harvested for resources directly. The Wyld is just their social background.It's kind of like how there aren't any Exalted based on Creation, even if there are a lot of Exalted in Creation. Heaven, Hell, and the Underworld have their own Exalted, why not Lunars and the Wyld?
>>97039464Graces are made from the Wyld, shaping is the literal manipulation of the Wyld, gossamer is of the Wyld, and their charms (which stem from the Graces) are the extensions of their innate shaping abilities. I have no idea how you got the Fair Folk so wrong.>It's kind of like how there aren't any Exalted based on Creationthis is so stupid that I want to slap you through my screen
>>97039487>Graces are made from the WyldMight as well say that human organs are made out of Creation, or trees, because they exist in Creation and eat things that come from trees. Graces are made from virtues and faerie organs. They aren't part of the Wyld and fae generally aren't using the Wyld as anything but base materials for them.>shaping is the literal manipulation of the WyldShaping combat is a fun little minigame for fae to engage with each other and prey on people. It doesn't engage with the Wyld as anything but terrain. The Wyld is a backdrop, not something they actually work with. Shaping actions that engage with the Wyld as more than that exist (see: Wyld stunts), but are rarely relevant and fae charms don't extend on them at all.>gossamer is of the WyldMeaningless drivel.>their charms are the extensions of their innate shaping abilitiesNow that I'm going to call bullshit on. Shaping combat charms yes, but that doesn't actually engage with the Wyld, that engages with other fae.>I have no idea how you got the Fair Folk so wrongI have no idea how you came to the conclusion that they're more than inhabitants and residents of/formed from the Wyld. They aren't champions of it and their powers aren't based on it even if they rose from it.
>>97038960>>97039009>They just make up generic spiritual powers of arbitrary scope, theme and capability, slap them onto a statblock they think a lobotomised player can handle, and call it a Raksha.>I'm sorry. Graceful Wicked Masques was by no means a perfect product, but it has been replaced with literally just random bullshit that, if you close one eye and squint, kind of looks like a Raksha.Oi Sandact, you forgot your tripcode.
>>97039575Just about all of this is incorrect. You should reread the book.
>>97037911They can be still be related, but completely different, the problem is that the devs went with capeshit style carbon copy foils.The same problem applies to Sidereals and Getimians.>>97038055>pleasing VtM fans.I think Abyssals being corrupted was to tie them to the kueijin lore.But you are right in that Abyssals modified a bit to bait vampire players, since they are built around the worse selling Wraith line, than added vampire elements.
>>97039651Actually wait a minute are you pulling from Fair Folk or Graceful Wicked Masques? If its from the latter, that might be why everything sounds wrong to both of us
>>97039464>It's kind of like how there aren't any Exalted based on Creation, even if there are a lot of Exalted in Creation. Heaven, Hell, and the Underworld have their own Exalted, why not Lunars and the Wyld?They actually exist; despite the devs trying to push Lunars in the role of "Creation/nature's exalts", those are the Terrestrials A.K.A. The Dragon-Blooded, who even renamed themselves in honor of the 5 elemental dragons.
>>97038683>metaplot wank.You talk like the devs don't want this, in current edition it is Rakan Thulio and the Realm.>>97039060>I definitely feel like making Sun a nihilistic hedonistic neet is swinging too far in the other direction as a reaction to the late 2E Basically Jesus version of himLike an anon mentioned above, it was just forum yap and memes.Similar to Mnemon destroying the first magical school.
>>97039750Gaia isn't Creation and neither are the Elemental Dragons.
>>97039872Tell this to early 1e writers, and the 5 elemental dragons are deeply tied to the 5 poles.>Exalted: The Autochthoniansalso mentions that the Elemental Dragons are the Third Circle souls of Gaia and that most of her Second Circle souls are actuallydemesnes.
>>97039680>They can be still be related, but completely different, the problem is that the devs went with capeshit style carbon copy foils.I don't have the belief that people actually want anything else. They really want to treat it like character classes or differing specs. Plus, I also think it's bad for niche protection to have several people of the same caliber when your entire deal is being the highest caliber.
>>97033854>I think about Gorol more often and I haven't thought about him all year until now. Is Gorol retconned in 3e? There's some new dude called Feng Huang (they changed his last name from Morningstar to Dawnglory) who is the first warlock now, which was Gorol's entire defining trait. I mean, back when warlocks were Akuma.This is just irrationally make me angry. Why the fuck would you retcon Gorol? I'm actually fine with many 3E retcons because most of them have some logic behind them, but throwing out the Gorol' story for some rando evil sorcerer is just crappy writing all around.And Gorol is not even from 2E, he comes from Time of Tumult - one of the earliest 1E supplements. I thought nu-devs like early 1E?
>>97039992Depends on the person, there were loud ones who seethed about Infernals being fun to play, instead of being an Abyssals-esque miserable experience for the sin of not being a Solar.In fact; some want every exalted to be the same with little differential.
>>97040047>I thought nu-devs like early 1E?No.Ironically enough, genre or fiction purists are likely to be the ones who most dislike the source material that they base their own views upon.A notorious example is hard-scififags hatred for older foundational sci-fi for not following the "guidelines and tropes" of "proper" sci-fi, despite using these same works as examples of how great sci-fi can be.
>>97040143Infernals are the thing that convinced me that reformatted Solars are a dumb concept, actually. What's the point of making the connection if it's only to crib the stuff you want from it? And then after that, I realized that I kind of felt the same way about Abyssals--especially, as people wanted to just run them as Goth Solars in the underworld. There is no value to this connection, it only exists to make these guys a higher tier of power at the expense of what was the exclusive draw of the original
Is being the best really a niche?
>>97040253Not really; super strenght, toughness, agility, etc... aren't really niches.In Exalted, it just ended with numbers bloat, while the higher concept powers went to SMAs.
even super powers don't really amount to shit in the big picture
>>97040253I think it is for Solars. Everything about them is written to and meant to evoke being unparalleled, perfect, the peak of mastery and power overwhelming. That's not just fluff, the game tells you literally that they are. So yeah, if writers then turn around and say "Well, you're actually paralleled here, and this guy's technically got a more important ability than you, and this guy's you but he listens to Evanescence", then your niche WASN'T protected.
>>97040305>I think it is for Solars. Everything about them is written to and meant to evoke being unparalleled, perfect, the peak of mastery and power overwhelmingIf that were true then they wouldn't have died in the usurpation.
>>97040309That doesn't matter because I'm also referencing the out of character text which also spells out that this is what they're meant to be. It's the literal design intent, powerscaling autism doesn't have relevance
>>97040305Solar still beats Abyssal and Infernal in multiple aspects though.Lorewise the difference is that both Abyssal and Infernal get a lot of resources and underlings right off the bat while Solar largely have to fend for themselves for a while and would have a bigger target on their back thanks to Sidereal working with the DB.
>>97040321You're mistaking a bit of dramatic language for cold hard fact like the powerscaling autists you're raving about.
>>97040309Anon, the Usurpation has been stated to not really be something to represent by the system many times. It's like the ancient backstory war: don't fuckin worry about how it happened, it's not for the rules to represent.
>>97040341Wrong.
>>97040346I am extremely sure that this has been explicitly explained by several devs and you're just trolling
>>97040305>Everything about them is written to and meant to evoke being unparalleled, perfect, the peak of mastery and power overwhelming.Some odd passages from 1e, imples that Sidereals were secretly stronger.In 1e, Essence 1~5 exalted are mortal brained chumps, only by Essence 6 and living hundreds years, a rare few get to the a higher level enlightenment, that the chargen Sidereals get by default...
>>97040361I don't give a shit. The "devs" are a revolving door of fanboys just like you.
>>97040363lol, okay, have fun being wrong
>>97040371I'll have fun with the fact that the usurpation is a canon event across all editions.The most consistent part of every permutation of the setting is that the solars got their asses absolutely DESTROYED at the peak of their power.
>>97040379You're really making that case for just being a ragebaiter. Good luck, friend. May someone else bite your bait
>>97040386I don't really understand why the usurpation would make anyone rage, but you do you.
>>97040253No, not really, and at any rate 1E doesn't really treat Solars as being the best at literally everything, with the core saying that Sidereals are better scholars than Twilights. It matters that Solars are impressive even among Exalted, and that means they shouldn't be overshadowed by any other type of Exalt, but it doesn't really matter much whether or not Infernals and Abyssals are their equals in raw power. It doesn't matter in the terms of Solar niche protection, I should clarify. It does matter in the sense that there are obvious benefits to having peer-level opposition to throw at Solar PCs.
>>97040322I think it matters conceptually, especially since the places they are the most even are ones with easy comparisons
>>970403971e's verbiage on the different exalts in core is really shaky at best. 2e is more consistent, imo, even if I don't like how supplements overexplained the setting.
>>97040211>Infernals are the thing that convinced me that reformatted Solars are a dumb conceptIt doesn't make much sense in general; the biggest monster of the first age, can still be a second age immoral Solar, with no redemption needed.
>>97040397Mid to late 1e came in line with how to present Solar power, and it's been fairly consistent since (the execution though....). Frankly, the peer threat thing doesn't hold water to me since 9/10 Solars are fighting an enemy way more entrenched and dripping in resources they won't have. Being individually better is the balance point of the struggle
>>97040430This. I don't need my antagonist to be lime green. It can literally just be another Solar who is simply an asshole.
>start looking for an older post over rpgnet.>stumbled upon a discussion during 1e era (2005).>Saw a familiar face or 2.>Autosue was a nickname for Autochthon.>A poster joked about containing his hate for autosue.Oh, this explains a bit about the franchise development.
>>97040831>>start looking for an older post over RPGnet.Why did you do that to yourself? I'd sooner dive into Reddit than that trans glazing site.
>>97040904Looking for setting information about the seasons and day length.
>>97040831Autochthon wank is also pretty bad to be fair
>>97039966Early 1e writers were stumbling around in the WoD's shadow, and the adventures in Autochthonians are not known for being of high quality or rigorously canonical.>>97039241The moon is about shapeshifting, and predator/prey relationships.>>97039211It's unfortunate that you feel that way, because it's demonstrably not what Luna's been about for some time.>>97039149No one should be the Wyld Exalted. It's fundamentally not a thing of Creation, and Creation's gods doing the Exalting means that nothing of theirs will have deep connections to it.
>>97039377you just described a dodge charm
>>97039211i'm just so speechless that Morke was so adamant lunars were not allowed to have fun illusion charms because of a 3.5e specific issue with illusions charms + the fact Coyote didn't use illusions when his fat ass went to the library.
>>97039233I don't mind if Lunars had more animal themed charms that drew on their mythology and actual abilities. I actually don't feel like the ones they get are that fun.
>>97041245>the fact Coyote didn't use illusions when his fat ass went to the library.Funnily enough, trickster gods also didn't use that much shapeshifting, no more than the avarage god does.
>>97041268Lunars aren't technically the "animal exalted" either, they are the garou's "feral savages" stereotype made into an Exalt type.Because of this they lacked nature manipulation in 1e.
>>97034121Yozis can communicate too, just not with words. Maybe Incarnae are just awesome enough, as well as familiar enough with Primordials, to make more sense of their communication than humans.
>>97041515>as well as familiar enough with PrimordialsMore familiar than their own third circle souls?
>>97041553I did not say that, anon. Yozis can communicate with their 3CDs through "images, dreams and revelations". The preview doesn't seem to go into detail about how difficult 3CDs find to interpret these images, dreams and revelations. I'm suggesting just what I, you know, actually said, that maybe the Incarnae can make more sense of such communication than mortals.
>>97041553>>97041577>images, dreams and revelationsMaybe they just send them text messages and wet dreams.
>>97041636Sure, Luna and Gaia's romance being conducted through nude pics and emojis sounds plausible.
>>97039637Bro I'll be real with you, Raksha in Ex2 were the things that made my brain melt in terms of mechanics and themes.
>>97041924>Raksha are supposed to be brain-melting horrors from outside reality>trying to look at their themes and mechanics is brain-meltingMission accomplished. :^)
>>97041924I don't get this because I remember reading their rules and it came across as extremely basic and mechanically simple. I'll need to give it another check but the formatting was the issue, not how complex they system was.>>97041180Almost all of 1e, an incredible amount of 2e, and even still a bunch of 3e just keep reusing old world of darkness shit. I will never understand it but expecting these people to do something new is probably not gonna happen. Everything is a rehash of a rehash and anyone pretending that their edition is the most original is just lying to your face.It's funny because like another anon said if you say exalted is just a world of darkness prequel people get upset. Even though, you know, everything in it is based off world of darkness stuff. Even STILL. I blame autism and the fact that old people refuse to give up their games even if they need to port them to new platforms.
>>97042062no see, they dropped all the WoD elements before 1e was even finished and it is totally irrelevant besides names now. totally 100% true.
>>97042015New ideas happen from time to time.>It's funny because like another anon said if you say exalted is just a world of darkness prequel people get upsetIt is in a liminal state of both being its own thing and being a prequel; some connections were forced by the devs themselves like Abyssals to Masquerade, instead of Wraith.While others only make sense if you are familiar with the source of inspiration, for example; Solars and Hunters only make sense if you are familiar with the necroscope.
>>97042155I am exaggerating a bit for dramatic flare yeah. Although Solar and Hunters does feel like something you can sus out just by looking at em.
>>97042264I always thought the connection between Solars and Hunters was tenuous, than I read the Necroscope novel series and saw the protagonist soul being split in several golden pieces to empower several mortals each with fraction of his powers and the connection began to make a bit more of sense.
>>97041677>It’s just an endless strema of crying emojis from one direction and fire emojis from the otherTruly a numinous moment.
>>97042327Well, shit. Was Necroscope just WW's go-to for everything back in the day?
>>97042761Nta but I thought that was Tales From The Flat Earth. That and a grab bag of eastern mythology, and some kind of redhead fetish.
>>97042782>and some kind of redhead fetishYou say that like it's a bad thing!
>>97042761it seems to have been formative for them, a lot from masquerade is from it, and the common WW's soul plug trope too. the mc (solar) is the origin of vampirism through a time lop, which may explain why Abyssals are corrupted Solars
Can you summon raksha with sorcery?
>my twilight as the Directional Titan she made is driven over a Raksha freehold and watches the fireworksIt took over a year to make it out of game but god damn was it ever worth it.Now to drive it over to Lookshy
>>97043490Belting out the evil laugh is not optional.
>>97043552Oh I absolutely did that.
>>97042879I’m not! If anything I’m peeved that 3e has fewer redheads than previous editions because it’s harder to tell if Merela was canon. I think her name comes up briefly in one of the Sidereal fiction chapters but there is nothing. Literally nothing. About her either way actually in the published material. At least she’s not outright invalidated like Gorol.
>>97041180>It's unfortunate that you feel that way, because it's demonstrably not what Luna's been about for some time.That's because their take on Luna is fuckin retarded and only serves to justify their WoD shit.
>>97043800Yes, Luna was described as the queen of illusions in 1e
>>97043034In 3e: summon no, bind yes. At8D pg180. It wouldn't be wild to take the spell as-written (with a ~20m cost) back to 1e/2e either.
>>97043842Early 1e said a lot of things. A lot of it didn't stick to the wall.>>97043800Enjoy the constant declarations of "I roll to disbelieve!" at every effect, I guess.
>>97044355>you don't roll just to disbelieve the system automatically takes that into account, just play the game.
>>97044355I'm thinking shit like Ninja shadow clones. Yeah, they're fake, but they're also real enough to kick your ass
>>97044359Knowing that a character type works with illusions tends to skew the meta. In fact, it even skews the in-character meta, because if everyone knows that they're fake they're going to look for signs that it's, well, fake.>>97044361That's less of an illusion and more of a short-lived conjuration or transmutation, no? Kind of like a one-shot effect that turns a paper replica into something.(Lunar 3e duplicates start off as low-fidelity transformed hairs or the like, and steadily increase in stability as the Lunar learns to actually duplicate herself, turn into a swarm, etc.)
>>97044387It's thematically illusion. Don't be so strict with the interpretation. That kind of stuff, as well as ninja techniques in general, are mostly considered some kind of illusion or trick
>Expansive Form (•••) >The Infernal encompasses a wide area, allowing her to become a living tidal wave, a veinous root system or profane temple. This has the following benefits:>When she transforms, she can choose to displace terrain within short range, pushing it back one range band to make way for her grandeur. Depending on how this power manifests, this can be temporary, as she warps the boundaries of space for the duration of her transformation in the manner of Hell’s arcane topography, or permanent, as she crushes erodes away that which would confine her or crushes it like a layer of the Demon City.>The area within short range of her counts as difficult terrain for her enemies.>When she attacks an enemy, she can count as being one range band closer or further away from him, whichever is more advantageous. She gains the same benefit when enemies make ranged attacks against her.>She gains Dispersed Form and Area Attack for free.>Some variants of Expansive Form are immobile but encompass a much larger area. The Infernal cannot move from her location, but she destroys or displaces terrain within long range when she transforms, can count as being three range bands closer (but not further away) for the purposes of attacks, and can count any area within long range as difficult terrain for her enemies.Our thoughts so far (for those who don't recognise it, it's a sneak preview at the bottom of the fiction's 1st chapter)? I really like it for what it is, but I want to hear what you guys think since I've been so mindbroken by disappointment with 3e for so long, I'm actually scared of having hope.
>>97044569Stupid. I wanna play a guy, not an map hazard
>>97044446What even is an illusion, then?
>>97044611>The condition of being deceived by a false perception or belief.>To be tricked or deceived is to be put under an illusionHowever, when people talk about Lunar illusions would also (as they do now) allow for things that would normally be illusions, except real. When the magic man with his magic boxes tricks you into thinking someone teleported between them, the Lunar illusionist teleports someone between the boxes. Where the magic man does the funny smoke and mirrors trick that makes you think you see a monster standing in the fog that isn't there, the Lunar illusionist actually makes the image of a monster appear out of the fog (or perhaps makes an actual monster run out to grab someone and drag them into the fog).
>>97043857>At8D pg180I didn't even realize that I didn't have this book. Thanks anon
>>97044624Perfect explanation. Lunar magic should have the flavor of illusions, because everyone has experienced some mirage or optical trick under the moonlight. But the magic makes those optical illusions real. You are seeing two Lunars because in that moment, he has made a body double with his Essence so he can give you a left and right hook at the same time.
>>97044355this was also in 2e btw>yeah well...I disavow the specific periods of time that associated luna with illusions
I love how Alchemicals and Dream Souled have an illusion charm that works the exact way most who want Illusion charms would expect it too, and somehow it hasn't caused the prophesied balance nightmare. It is just insane how much D&D 3.5 and Chimestry has made it impossible for people to evaluate the effect of illusions in games.Hey retards! Illusions are fucking disguises. This has been figured out since 1e.
>>97044695Is there some reason Lunars shouldn't be able to just make an actual, physical body double, though? I don't think there's much reason to have both that ability and the ability to make an illusory body double.
>>97044721One of the old devs might've had weird hangups about illusions and game balance, but balance not the most common argument people who're fine with Lunars not having illusions make. I say "people who're fine with Lunars not having illusions" rather than "people who don't want Lunars to have illusions", because in my experience it's not that common for people to be really vehemently opposed to giving Lunars such Charms, and it's a lot more common for people to be just indifferent to Lunars having such Charms. Anyways, disagreements about how well illusions fit Lunar themes and desire to focus on expanding shapeshifting instead tend to be more frequently made points in these discussions. Illusions as disguises, for instance, don't seem that useful to a kind of Exalt that can also disguise themselves by actually changing their shape.
>>97044730why would they need a specific charm for specifically making a purely illusory body double when something like that can come under a broader charm about making phantasmal things. the way you're phrasing it is pretty bad faith.
>>97044730They can make body doubles right? It was a knack in 2e
>>97044751>Illusions as disguises, for instance, don't seem that useful to a kind of Exalt that can also disguise themselves by actually changing their shape.Lunars and Solars have disguises that cause illusions already. In the Lunar's case specifically, it's useful because they ARE limited by what shapes they can take. They cannot take a Dragonblooded's shape and replicate their anima in the base set without Essential Mirror Nature.When people talk about illusion charms, they usually mean things outside of the person - which are useful. Or, if you are a very strick and low balling reader of EMN, disguising yourself as a specific sort of demon rather than a general sort of demon.
>>97044730A body made of essence IS real. Essence is all things. It's just useful because you can establish this kind of stuff as part of other charms, like a multiattack charm working by making a bunch of phantasmal clones of yourself that attack at the same time. Flavor matters.
Hey look, it's Ma-Ha-Suchi!
>>97044730>Is there some reason Lunars shouldn't be able to just make an actual, physical body double, though?Different effects optimized for different things, and at different power levels, and in different ways, provide a lot of space for effects with similar ideas but different overarching goals. See, in order: Indolent Official Charm vs Venomous Rumors Technique, Easily Overlooked Presence Method vs Mental Invisibility Technique, and Seven Shadows Evasion vs Heavenly Guardian Defense,
>>97044811That's pretty clearly Strength-of-Many. He's the minotaur who cares about the marginalized and downtrodden subjugated by authoritarian structures. Ma-Ha-Suchi is a goat/wolf/man and is more about gathering a big horde of barbarians and charging directly at the enemy.
>>97044730They do have that ability in 3e, in addition to pulling out a reflection of themselves from a mirror that is modeled as a spirit familiar.
>>97044820>See, in order:On review, I fucked up the order lmaoIOC v VRT have the same idea (socially fuck 'em) optimized in different directions to different end effectsEOPM vs MIT have the same idea ('nobody sees you') at different power levelsSSE vs HGD have the same idea (perfect defense) expressed in different ways.
>>97044826Ma-Ha-Suchi is the mutant fuckboy though right?
>>97044863MHS is a swole goat who is 200% butthurt about basically everything
>>97044863He's not really a fuckboy by the time he goes mutant. He's filled with hatred by the time he's gone chimaera form. He was a fuckboy in the First Age.Strength-of-Many is very much the hotty fodder for people who like big bara bulls. There's a reason he got the long comic in Lunars, and was later shown making out with the hot infernal nun.
>>97044868In 1e, he was described as being lupine.
>>97045117He's got a wolf totem, but picked up goat-like Wyld mutations and a goat-based chimaera form, in 1e and 2e.
>>97045252I wonder if he is capable of lactation like male goats do.
>>97043707>3e has fewer redheads than previous editionsABSOLUTELY CRIMINAL ONYX PATH MUST BURN
>>97044888>and was later shown making out with the hot infernal nun.That and she's his Solar mate. Nice trips by the way.
This conversation is truly saddening because it shows Lunars had any potential to be cool like the other splats smothered in the crib for utterly asinine reasons.
>>97045473But Werewolf,bro, don't you LOVE werewolf? Gaia! Furries! Tatts!
>>97044751All exalts already do illusions and essence constructs. It's only Lunars where these ideas get shouted down in favor of "well can't you just grow some horns?"
>>97044888>>97045459>Infernals go rogue because hot Lunar mate
>>97045485I have the theory that Lunars originally had them, and they were keyed to appearance, but the devs scrapped illusions at the last minute, so Lunars ended up with a giant hole in their charmset.
>>97045529Hot Lunar mate is the universal weakness among Solaroids. No matter how mighty and fearsome a Solaroid is, they will helplessly fall before the power of hot Lunar mate.
>>97045670It's very possible. At the very least, I know that I'd rather have a Lunar remake that focuses more on the stuff in >>97039211 instead of more shapeshifting and Not-Garou shit.
>>97045485>>97045670the most cursed theory that the reason they didn't, is because they'd get Graces and the ability to Shape, which is what FF let them do.
>>97045753My theory is because of the two holes in the design of the changing moons caste.We know that they were meant to get the illusions, and they are also missing a whole attribute.But appearance being the raksha stat makes some sense.
Are there any statblocks for angyalka in 3e? I don't care if it's official or fanmade, just give me a link if you have it.
>>97046347Give it a week, they'll probably be in Infernals when we get the Antagonists chapter
>>97046347I'm not aware of one, but I'd be somewhat optimistic about getting it in Infernals.
>>97032143When is the next draft document coming out again? And what do you think of what's been released so far?
>>97044624>Illusions>But not really. Teleportation!That's just a great value reality warper.>>97044695>everyone has experienced some mirage or optical trick under the moonlight ...No?>>97044713Vast swaths of 2e were just lazy copypastes from 1e.>>97044721An illusion Charm. A single one. That everyone knows is just BS and for show.>>97045485Why can't you? If you're an actual shapeshifter, shapeshift. Your real form is malleable. There's no need to deal with the questionably themed "illusion" effects.>>97045473Why, because some anon thinks that there should be illusions, but that aren't really illusions?
>>97046792>Why, because some anon thinks that there should be illusions, but that aren't really illusions?Because there are devs with a say on the gameline's lore and mechanics that have similarly asinine thought processes.
>>97046792>That's just a great value reality warper.What better way to prove you're a divine-tier trickster than to bullshit well enough to fool reality itself? Really, exercise a little imagination here.>Why can't you? If you're an actual shapeshifter, shapeshift. Your real form is malleable. Narrator: "And by malleable he meant just animals.">There's no need to deal with the questionably themed "illusion" effects.Heaven forbid that the deity whose godly porfolio includes change, trickery, deception and so on give her chosen the power to cast illusions.
Did Modern rules account for using social charms via tv/social media?
>>97046908Why not just expand on shapeshifting so there's more to it once more than animals, anon? I mean, we're talking about adding things to what Lunars actually have in 3E either way, and giving shapeshifting more power and versatility seems like a lot more pressing issue than giving them illusion powers.
>>97047082They count as written influence.
>>97047105Why not both? Why are you insisting on pigeonholing Lunars as "the shapeshifting Exalted"?
>>97047130I'm not. I'm not opposed to Lunars having illusion Charms in principle. My issue is that pretty much every illusion power people have suggested for them has left me wondering "why not just let Lunars do that for real rather than illusorily?" Anyways, I think the right way to add illusion powers to Lunars would be to first make shapeshifting all it should be and then think about whether there's actually some useful and distinct niche for illusion Charms left.
>>97047164Personally, I thinks shapeshifting sucks ass and the focus on it is the primary cause why Lunar abilities have been uninteresting and lame for 3 editions. We can shed the WtF chassis now, it's ok
>>97047201Do you mean that you think shapeshifting sucks ass on a conceptual level or that the way Lunars handle shapeshifting sucks ass? If it's the latter, I mostly agree, but if you meant the former then I'd have to vehemently disagree.
>>97047112Even videos?
>>97046908>What better way to prove you're a divine-tier trickster than to bullshit well enough to fool reality itself? Really, exercise a little imagination here.Pot. Kettle. Wyld-tainted.>Narrator: "And by malleable he meant just animals."Animal-looking special effects is a coherently-themed power set that's open enough to cover a lot of ground but not just "I wave my hands, whatever I want happens.">Heaven forbid that the deity whose godly porfolio includes change, trickery, deception and so on give her chosen the power to cast illusions.I feel like I actually get GCG now. I thought I did before, but seeing this and processing someone demanding that being a trickster and fast-talker be a variety of reality-warper is a new level of self-redefining revelation.>>97047082Yes! But it usually entails limiting the Charms so as to not make world brainwashing too easy.
>>97045473>I want Lunars to be cool like Infernals>Ok let's strengthen their ties to the wyld and monstrous loss of their humanity tying them to the wyld and chaos>NOT LIKE THAT>Ok so they are animal exalted and the reason they are next to non existent in lore is because they are ineffectual.
>>97047255I'd like to start making Lunars cool by broadening their shapeshifting, expanding on the sacred hunt to let Lunars steal power, memories and such in addition to shapes - which, to be fair, they already can to an extent, but I'd like there to be more of that - and by giving them a bunch of actual victories and other achievements in the lore. Why would strengthening their ties to the Wyld be necessary to do that?
>>97047273By broadening their themes to mytological monsters instead of animals.Lunars are dragons, gorgons, unicorns, phoenixes, etc.This would allow for a broader and cooler selection of possible charms.And tying them to the wyld would explain their lack of stron influence deep in creation and you can have a ton of stories of monsters stomping legions every time the legions try to venture beyound the treshhold.
>>97047311Dragons are elementals and unicorns are wyld-creatures in Creation. I don't think your idea of what Lunars should be meshes with the setting.
>>97047234If it's not in person, treat as written influence for the purpose of charms and other magic effects though obviously being illiterate offers no protection against non-text content.
>>97047346>I don't think your idea of what Lunars should be meshes with the setting.>Lunars monsters that dance on deliniations specially powered with their association with the wyld blurr the lines between types of creatures.This sounds cooler than animal exalted to me
>>97047381>strengthening Lunars' ties to the Wyld would make them cooler>by making them go insane and fuck off from Creation and into the Wyld effectively removing themselves from the setting>I am very smart
>>97047412>Solars, infernals and Abyssals aren/t cool because they didn't exist until now or were kept outside creation for a long time>I am very smart
>>97047376>If it's not in person, treat as written influence for the purpose of charms and other magic effects
>>97047381You can let Lunars shapeshift into things other than animal and also combine festures of different shapes to create hybrid forms without the Wyld having anything to do with it.
What were Lunar themes before the Usurpation? How did those become the fucked up shapeshifting wyld-ish powers? Lunars weren't the animal/illusion exalted by default
>>97047437>without the Wyld having anything to do with itThey have always had ties to the wyld, so why not use it as a plot point?Maybe the simple existance of Solars uses to help ancor their mercurial essence without Solars they fell into inbalance but now that they are returning Lunars are recovering sanity and new lunars have no problems.Or maybe without solars they need the energy of the wyld to replenish themselves effectively like how Abyssals had problems respiring essence in creation so it's much more benefitial for them to be there and come into creation with temporaty excursions before returning.
>Maybe the simple existance of Solars uses to help ancor their mercurial essence without Solars they fell into inbalance but now that they are returning Lunars are recovering sanity and new lunars have no problems.The person who wrote this says Lunar-Taming Leash in public without irony or embarrasment
>>97047491First age Lunars didn't really have a purpose outside being Solars fucktoys, or extra helping hands since there were not enough Solars around.
>>97047460>Lunars weren't the animal/illusion exalted by defaultIronically enough, according to 1e lore, they were, they only turned to anarchoprimitivism only after the Usurpation.
>>97047491>The person who wrote this says Lunar-Taming Leash in public without irony or embarrasmentI honestly do think lunar fans hate everything lunars are except for having shapeshifting powers.
>>97047551They used to have sick healing charms in 2e that my Eclipse would learn so I liked them for that
I know the real solution.Get rid of Lunar altogether and give Solars shapeshifting powers.There the perfect lunars, according to some anons here.
>>97047581Close. Get rid of Lunars, make the Sidereals the solar's bondmates and make Infernals the shapeshifters instead
>>97047551>I honestly do think lunar fans hate everything lunars are except for having shapeshifting powers.it is because of 1e, Lunars were only meant to have DBT and nothing more.Because of this there is this view that Lunars should only have DBT adjacent stuff and nothing more.
I've not read Gilgamesh, but I watched a youtube video about it. Are Solars and Lunars meant to be Gilgamesh and Enkidu respectively?
I really don't get this whole illusion discourse. It seems like something that other games have solved for a long time. Also illusions are vast so that makes it even more confusing. Personally, I think some kind of moonlight illusion that can cause super cancer would be really fun.
>>97047800the funny thing is that all three editions of the game solved it too.I think the most interesting thing about this discourse is that 99 percent of people complaining about it would be content with what >>97044721 is referring to, and they'd go on to complain about something else. But they would be happier.
>>97047346lunars are world walkers and perpetual outsiders that can still somehow ingratiate themselves into places.if your affront is that it'd be annoying mechanically to have Lunars be a Dragon/Unicorn, sure, but Lunars in 2e and even 3e have the ability to embody power from other realms. how that manifests mechanically can be in various ways, but out and out saying >Lunars should be meshes with the setting.when you are explicitly and exclusively referring to Creation, the non supernatural parts of Creation, is kind of shit.
>>97047428That's not the point and you know it.
>>97047626They're cited as an example of how the Solar-Lunar bond may play out, not a 1:1.
>>97047437Terrifying Argent Witches has permanently mutated Lunars discussion for the worse, as now posters will not shut up about them having "Wyld powers" despite the point being that they were made by the Incarnae that is most actively AGAINST the Wyld. You already have all the Wyld charms they're going to get: specifically, the ones that let them destroy or bind anything that comes from it.
>>97045459>That and she's his Solar mate.Is that actually confirmed canon, or just assumed because he's a Lunar pictured making out with a Solaroid?
>>97048384Does it really matter?
>>97046792>That's just a great value reality warper.Only if it's a general effect rather than a series of more specific effects.Also, that's why some people say they should have Wyld stuff and illusion stuff in the same breath. The one backs the other, and does it in a way that has it's own identity separate from fae shit.>>97047242>Pot. Kettle. Wyld-tainted.Yes
>>97048374Anon... Lunars being a joke is a decades old thing by now, in fact TAW was made as a answer to it.
>>97048374Forgot to mention, Lunars being tied to Luna is only an in-universe thing, Holden outright refused to make Lunars based on their own patron.If they were actually based on Luna, they would get more wyld powers, and new esoteric forms of shapeshifting beyond just the petting zoo.
>>97048444No it was just more Infernals 2e mindset spreading like the clap rather than a sincere attempt to make them more interesting. If they had their way, Exalted would be entirely bad China Mieville fan fic instead of sword and sorcery.
>>97048508Anon, they even removed Raksi baby eating ways, TAW is more earnest than anything officially published >If they had their way, Exalted would be entirely bad China Mieville fan fic instead of sword and sorcery.You just described 3e.
>>97048452Luna's powers relating to the Wyld are those of hunting it and keeping it separate from Creation. Thus, Lunars have the power to seize territory in the Wyld and stifle its mutative influence within that territory, force Wyld mutations and madness out of people, sense the influence of fae, devour fae to take their Eclipse charms for themselves, and so on.>>97048555This post is dumb but you did just get trips two times in a thread and they're also sequential so props for that. Go buy a scratch-off ticket.
Is this the Raksi simp?>>97048568He got really emotional out of nowhere
>>97048585Anon I am genuinely happy that you got trips two times in a row, why are you being mean
>>97048585What's wrong with simping for Raksi. if you don't want your babies eat stay the fuck away from the person who eats babies.
>TAW ruined the discussion about Lunars!!!>Lunars discussion was broken years before TAW was a thing.>You belong to a mental asylum!!!Is this a Getimian? He seems to have originated in a parallel universe where Lunars didn't cause shitstorms for years at this point.
>>97048679Anon, I'm genuinely confused. How did you get the impression that I said you belong in a mental asylum, and why are you vagueposting about it four replies below the post you should be responding to?
>>97032143to whomsoever updates, the final version of Pillar of Creation is on this g0phi13. i made sure to verify correctly this time/d/7QI16d
>>97048659Yes, but once it was pointed out that she also fucked babies, a simp hit his limit break.
>>97048679Can a Getimian send me to a parallel universe where Lunars haven't been utter shit for two decades straight? Or at least tell me a little about what it's like back home?
In hindsight maybe we shouldn't have made so much fun of Holden and Morke. They were the better option when it came to handling the gameline.
>>97048903they can turn creation into such a place briefly or more permanently with sustained effort, though it won't affect actual lunars
>>97039072>If they announce a 4e, I'm tapping the fuck out.>he didn't tap out after seeing the shitfest 3e core turned out to be
>>97048384Their makeout scene accompanies a paragraph where it's stated that at least one Infernal abandons the reclamation after meeting their Solar mate so it's really strongly hinted without actually setting anything down in stone. Essentially, "yes, but we're giving you room for headcanon".
>>97049047That and there was also another picture of her (likely) explaining the exclamation plan to other iconic Exalted characters.
>>97049047I think it was to avoid the Swam/Lilith/Desus situation, some people disliked Lilith to have been taken.It set up the way the current iconics are written.
>>97049109>some people disliked Lilith to have been taken.Too bad, she's mine. Die jealous.
>>97048679I dunno, but watching yet another explosion about Lunars in /exg/ is starting to make me feel like I overreacted to Infernals in hindsight, compared to how much worse things could’ve been. Granted I had literally no way of knowing the drafts would win me over this much with the progress of 3e before now, but every single complaint I’ve ever had about nu-Infernals (even the Penumbra shit) pales in comparison to what being a Lunarfag seems like in comparison. We got mfs trying to brainstorm the entire splat from the ground up and other mfs shooting them down.>>97048936I’ve always been of the opinion that Holdenmorke are better idea guys than everyone currently remaining with the gameline. The only problem is they need to be tardwrangled to avoid>coming up with retarded concepts like the Infernal Cosmic Exalted in the 3e Infernals preview>overthinking rules, nerfs, and weird shit “that has to be in the game” as evidenced by all of Holden’s homebrew
>>97047212I went to enjoy life. Shapeshifting sucks ass because it puts you in a dumb stupid box that makes you want to use it for everything, so it sucks conceptually and it sucks for Lunars. If their animal forms had explicitly been some kind of magical disguise, there wouldn't be decades long ass backwards discourse about what they shouldn't be doing
>>97049543If I had my way, Infernals would never have made it to print because they've been nothing but cancer to the gameline and the community at large, but Lunars not being Moon Exalts for 3 editions grinds my gears more.
>>97049653>If I had my way, Infernals would never have made it to print because they've been nothing but cancer to the gameline and the community at largeGood thing you'll never have your way with the gameline then, Mr. Wrongopinionson from Retardville.
>>97049674Sorry, mate, but I have zero love for the yozi yap so the splat that's nothing but primordial wank misses me by a country mile. You can't convince me there's anything good there, so instead of getting your panties in a twist about me not liking your bespoke fanfic exalts, how bout instead respond to Lunars part which was my main gripe?
>>97049543The problem with them was that Hatewheel and Holden are both forum faggots, and I don't mean that the way you think, I mean they think like forum posters. They want to win the argument. And they appeal to two different kinds of toxic autism. You can't have them in an online community or they'll start to get followers, who will want them to have more power, and then...
>>97048741But she doesn't fuck babies, though. What the fuck, anon?
>>97048741
>>97050114NTA (I'm this anon >>97049954), but I think I actually remember the discussion anon must be talking about now. IIRC it started with someone pointing out that 1E stated that Raksi's preferred prey were young men and women, and that she used them to sate her hunger of "the loin and the gullet", pretty clearly implying that she fucked them before eating them. This was talking about young men and women, though. Then the discussion proceeded to just how young people might be considered to be "young men and women" in a world like Creation, and somehow things got even creepier than the original subject matter of Raksi's cannibalism was. IIRC that was the discussion where one anon absolutely lost his shit at the idea of people distinguishing teenagers from both children and adults instead of just considering them children. I don't remember just how long ago that discussion was - it was this year, probably this autumn, but I don't remember more specifically - so I don't think I could find the specific discussion from archived threads withput spending an unreasonable amount of time doing so, though.
>>97050114>>97050163Alright, actually I did look it up as I was prevaricating instead of getting some real shit done, and I think anon's talking about this thread, probably starting from aorund here: https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/96287859/#q96312468. Pretty sure that thread was largely driven by one active troll, though, as the same thread has a couple of other pretty magical discussion, one about the definition of atheism and one about whether there might be somethign to magic IRL.
>>97050163I vaguely remember this - We had some anons talking about how they weren't pedophiles because being sexually attracted to 14 year olds was something different. Somehow Raksi got involved with anons saying that "young men and women" refereed to children. This was the thread that an anon got really detailed about how children are becoming sexually active way younger then they used to.It was a weird fucking thread.
>>97050203Nah, that discussion was more just anon acting like pointing out that the definition of adulthood has varied in different times and cultures was the same as wanting to fuck teenagers. I mean, I have definitely also seen people get really creepy about the differences between pedophilia and ephebopholia, but that wasn't what happened in that particular discussion.
>>97048727Updated
>>97050242I'm just trying to think of the context of where someone can talk about that stuff in an Exalted thread without coming across as a creep but I also don't want to read a bunch of stuff.
>>97050296The context was Raksi's lust and hunger for beautiful young men and women. One anon figured that "men and women" must refer to people at least in their 20s, other people pointed out that in a premodern world that might not be the case, and anon went "what the fuck, yiu guys must be pedophiles" in response. And sure, the anon who flung around those accusations did come across as a creep. If you meant that you can't think of a context where you can talk about differences between pedophilia and ephebophilia without coming across as a creep, well, you can't, not outside the driest academic context imaginable. As I said, that wasn't the discussion that happened in the thread in question, however. The actual discussion was creepy in an entirely different way and for different reasons.
>>97050311>One anon figured that "men and women" must refer to people at least in their 20s,It was less figured, and more pulled the modern view to avoid Raksi being labeled as a pedo.The book points out that, in the surrounding cultures, adulthood starts at puberty.
>>97050201I don't think it was a troll, since he immediately came with the "they are 20" argument, and tried to deflect really hard by calling others as the pedophiles.It is likely that he is still trying to do it.See >>97050203
>>97048374Luna was literally a bitch from the Wyld in her first incarnation in 1e, 1e Lunars for all its flaws tied Lunars heavily to the Wyld and exploiting it with things like Wyld questing, which was further compounded by 1e Fair Folk adding more Lunar Wyld connections like being able to use Graces and thus the entire Fair Folk Charm suite.The literal only thing people preach for is to make this more streamlined and better and less reliant on the fucking Fair Folk skulduggery charmset.
>>970507121e!Lunars pushed her more in a direction of an animal goddess, meaning Lunars made Luna worse by association.
>>97050712If I wanted to play a Fair Folk, I would. I just want to be a fucking moon exalt. Not a furry. Not a fey. Not a fucking lovecraftian horror (fuck you TAW). I want moon powers
>>97049029I got deep into copium following 3e because whether I like it or not, there's nothing quite like Exalted as competition out there on the market in terms of themes combined with scope. I'm just so strung out with how painful the journey to getting at least some of what I wanted feels so bittersweet and empty, that I'm finally ready to give up.>>97049653There is a time where I'd blow up at you and defend Yozi yap in long paragraphs, but as I said I'm getting mine with the 3e Infernals drafts while you're stuck with 3e Lunars as the most up to date representation of your splat. And I can't bear to kick a man while he's down at this point.>>97049931That is completely fair and another guideline for shit they have to be tardwrangled from doing. If only someone was better than them at writing punchy but intriguing fluff I'd be all for jettisoning them. The problem is judging from 3e's output, literally nobody else remaining with OP is better at prose and I don't think professional novelists out there are exactly jumping at the opportunity to write for a washed up epic high flying role-playing game about reborn god-heroes.
Also wonderful, character creation is finally here.
>>97050963Lunars aren't my preferred splat, but that's a nice attempt to try and justify the forum wank splat while also sidestepping an actual problem with the game.
>>97050996There is no problem. There is no need to be upset.
>>97051000There is a problem (they're written badly with poor themes) and there is a need to be upset (because it doesn't get addressed). I'm way past the point where new books can distract me from fundamental issues
>>97050963>There is a time where I'd blow up at you and defend Yozi yap in long paragraphsThere's no defense for it. I remember back in the day there were people posting their dissertations on the intricate soul hierarchy and nature of the yozi and then some faggot would come in and say "It won't matter when my Solar suplexes them". That guy was always right and they hated it. The yap was irrelevant
>>97051028>Yozifags put a lot of effort in their writing.>People come and say "it doesn't matter, since my character will blow it all up".Weird, since people claim the problem was the other way around.
>>97051028The yap's only irrrelevant if the people yapping don't have fun doing so. Also nature of the Yozis and their souls obviously and straighforwardly matters, because those are characters in the setting and their natures are relevant to their potential interactions with player characters.
>>97051037More true to actual play.>>97051055Yozi don't matter. That's the point of them. They've been defeated and enslaved forever, relegated to footnotes and special effects on the spells of the genuinely important. That's literally the intent of them; they can never be important characters again
>>97051090Regardless of the edition, the Yozis plot in ways that are at least potentially relevant to Creation. They're never going to be free again, they're never going to rule again, but their schemes may still end up causing a lot of trouble for the world. Their subsouls, of course, are less tightly imprisoned than Yozis themselves and therefore more capable of being important characters in the story of a given campaign.
>>97051145This is a late 2e thing brought to you by the same fags who would write that crap. Yozi aren't supposed to be important anymore because the universe has moved on from them, it is no longer their time to be the movers and shakers. This, more than their actual imprisonment, is the true punishment for their loss.
>>97051090>Yozi don't matter. That's the point of them. They've been defeated and enslaved forever, relegated to footnotes and special effects on the spells of the genuinely important. That's literally the intent of them; they can never be important characters againThis is not true. Even the Neverborn, who were defeated and are currently twisted wretches at the bottom of the Labyrinth, are still relevant. The Yozi were always supposed to be able to do something, to try things, to make themselves relevant. It wasn't always going to be a breakout attempt and the Reclamation wasn't always going to be a success, but as far back as the first Sidereals book a Third Circle Demon unbound in Creation summoning one of the Yozi into the world was a serious threat. The idea that they can't escape the demon city is a new one - or, well, it's only a decade old, as opposed to two decades ago when these things were being first written.
>>97051199lol, what? Dude this is one of the earliest directives of the setting handed down in no uncertain terms
>>97051090>Yozi don't matterThis goes against 1e Dragon-Blooded and 1e Sidereals.
>>97051162That is literally from 1e, where TeD personally kidnapped the Empress
>>97051199It's the age of the Exalted. They're the only ones relevant. Didn't we get told by the main writers that the Primordials aren't a threat anymore too? That was back in 1e
>>97051223And WW set it up ro break it through metaplot.
>>97051252>It's the age of the Exalted. They're the only ones relevantTell this to 1e Lion, or the heron to a lesser extent.
>>97051243>>970512501e everything else says otherwise. Hell, it was understood by everyone until it came into vogue to make gigantic posts waxing poetic about them and then people started to whine about not being able to use them. I was there, I remember
>>97051259And we all agree that metaplot is dumb
>>97051271>1e everything else says otherwise.The everything else, points to them being the main villains of the second season of the metaplot.Because of this the Deathlords got put to the side, since they already had their character arc completed.
>>97051090You don't play or understand how rpgs work on even the most basic level do you?
>>97051287Yes, but it doesn't change the fact that the yozis were set up to be main players.
>>97051267The Deathlords are something different, and generally considered a bad idea, but if you want to count them they are of Neverborn, not Yozi
>>97051300>You don't play or understand how rpgs work on even the most basic level do youIt is WW, for good or bad, WW revolutionized "source books as novels" format.Because of it ,they games are also so skub.
>>97051314>The Deathlords are something different, and generally considered a bad idea, but if you want to count them they are of Neverborn, not YoziAnd you think the Yozi weren't set up to be relevant players but the Neverborn were why, exactly?
>>97051297There were no seasons. This is pure revisionism
>>97051300I understand when the writers make out of character statements about setting intent, I'm supposed to take that as the truth over story seeds in a book.
>>97051321Because Abyssals were meant to be your antagonist splat
>>97051323The Infernal Exalted, and Ted's plans were set fairly early on
>>97051339The things which we factually know were not penned until a long time later by different authors and directors. Brother, this is why I can't take this shit seriously. It's like trying to hear somebody go through fucking Bible study
>people trying to use the worst written plotseeds and characters in the entire setting as defense for why they jack off primordials Grim
>>97051162Nah, it's not late 2E crap. Games of Divinity, for instance, says that while Ebon Dragon's schemes to free Yozis from their prison are doomed to failure, he "may damn Creation along the way, and of course Ebby is in general pretty active in 1E.>>97051223It doesn't seem to be a directive any edition of Exalted, including the one developed by Grabowski, has ever much cared about.
>>97051363Nobody used 1e Lunars to defend the primordials.
>>97051366Yeah, I said the worst. Lunars are still better than this.
>>97051355Grabowski was listed in 1e Dragon-Blooded and games of divinity.
>>97051365>>97051376I'm always going to take the main intent over story seeds, because story seeds are all over the place.
>>97051398I am very familiar with WW writers and books, so I know their intent.The main intent was; 1e is the Autochthon & Deathlords show, with the season 2 big bads in the background.Because of this 2e is secretly a sequel to 1e.
>>97051398>I'm always going to cherrypick things that support my point I am incredibly shocked and surprised by this.
>>97051398>I'm always going to take the main intent over story seeds, because story seeds are all over the place.What are you deciphering main intent from, anon? You wouldn't be extrapolating from a headcanon constructed based on offhand comments worth less than story seeds, would you? Seriously, if you don't think fucking Games of Divinity of all books talking about the Yozi is main intent I'm not sure what you could be thinking of.
>>97051427It's all cherry picking this entire thread. The books are made so that you can cherry pick >>97051424This has to be trolling though
>>97051441Other people have, at least, cited specific books to support the stance that Yozis are supposed to matter. What's your reason for thinking that they're not?
>>97051435The majority of references to Yozi double down on their relative impotence and authorial comments are those Word of God things we used to throw around. Fuck dude, I feel like this exact conversation happened like 20 times on the official WW forums and it always ended like this, with word of God versus plot hook what-ifs
>>97051467Whihc authorial comments are you referring to, here?
What level of working would allow an Infernal to use their Devil Body once per session rather than once per story?
>>97051482You are going to have to give me a little while here, because I don't know if you noticed but it's kind of hard to turn the clock back that far to find something that's not in a book, assuming you're not intentionally saying something in bad faith knowing that I'm going to have a hard time tracking those conversations down
>>97050712>Luna was literally a bitch from the Wyld in her first incarnation in 1e[citation needed]>1e Lunars for all its flaws tied Lunars heavily to the Wyld and exploiting it with things like Wyld questingNone of their charms or powers do much with the Wyld beyond killing it and resisting it in 1e. 3e Lunars does more by virtue of the fact that you can use your charms to have diplomatic relations with the fae in addition to killing them, including making them your familiars.
>>97051513Other people have pointed to specific books. You're referred to "the main intent" without specifying what you've inferred the main intent from, and on author statements without specifying which author you're talking about and what the actual statements. Where the fuck do you find the gall to even imply that someone else than you might be arguing in bad faith?
>>97051441>This has to be trolling thoughDid you ever read or play another WW's games? "X is impossible" only for X to happen in the next source book was a common occurrence.An example is Sobek, the mokole abomination.
>>97051597NTA but I can remember back to like 2008 people were giving speeches about Yozi being irrelevant and you can punch them in the face. I guess if you werent in the community then it's hard to say because almost all communication from that time is lost
>>97051760I also remember people saying that, but fans saying something on a forum 7 years after 1E core was published, at a point when Exalted was firmly in its second edition, isn't really Word of God. Even writers saying that at that point wouldn't necessarily say anything about 1E-era developer intent.
>>97051801You literally can't track it down because the few posts the 1e guys did make are on the now defunct and barely archived White Wolf forums. I couldn't even begin to tell you where to look to see if there's a copy of those posts anywhere, but it was the Word of God. Everyone considered it the Word of God, which is why Infermals making the yozi matter caused some people to rejoice and others to just swear off the game. I wouldn't be surprised to see an oldfag still clinging to that because that and a handful of other things (Essence 5 Solars can defeat anything in the setting being another) formed the mental bedrock of a lot of other shit.
>>97051822That's not the way I remember it, and while I don't claim to have a perfect memory, I'm going to need something more than "just trust me bro" to believe your memory over my own.
>>97051887I kinda feel the same way, because I remember longwinded hot debates about how the Ebon Dragon shouldn't be able to kidnap anybody and how Yozis can't be summoned into creation because of the oaths of defeat they took under their own name.
>>97051955TED did kidnap the Empress though
>>97052036
>>97051955>Yozis can't be summoned into creation because of the oaths of defeat they took under their own name.Talking about it, after reading Dukantha's write up, the oaths seem to be more gears than hard rules.Dukantha can summon Kimbery, which is described as a violation of the oath, which in turn sends heaven in a frenzy.
>>97052495Pretty sure they can only call in bits and pieces which is how summoning works in general.
>>97052550Yes, but it being an outright violation implies that the oaths aren't 100% infallibility like some claim.
Is Exalted: Essence a good place to start with this game? Or is it just a waste of time and money?
>>97052578Dukantha shouldn't have the authority to call any part of a Yozi, and that's how the oath is violated. Dukantha is the violator, not Kimbery
>>97052621>Note the use of this power is a violation of Kimbery's contract of imprisonment.Dukantha is violating the surrender oaths, the only consequence is that the Bureaus of Destiny and Seasons will go on alert and send strike forces.
>>97052664You're expecting Sidreals to be competent?
>>97052608Absolutely. It's a self-contained book which covers all the main points of the setting and lets you build actually working characters that you can actually run a campaign with.
Once again, any attempt to address Lunar problems is swept aside by Infernal fanboys wanting everything to be about them
>>97053050Infernals is being released now, there's a good reason to be discussing them
>>97051567nta but>do muchthis is kind of why people want there to be more. everyone already knows 1e fumbled the bag on this, and they tried to patch it with giving them fair folk charms (lol). what is your point here exactly, other than agreeing with everyone?
>>97053058I don't really care. It's always like this.
>>97053058Anyone posted an manuscript yet?
>Infernal shintai's (or whatever 3e wants to call them, still calling them shintai's) are now a build-your-own option.Someone pick up the phone as I called it a LONG time ago.
>>97053102lame
>>97053102Demon the Fallen / Kindred of the East bros...we won.
>>97053121I really don't see it that way and never have. Allowing your own shintai allows for greater flexibility on a personal character level in addition to expressing your own yozi. Most of the old shintai's can be made using this, but even better versions of them. The only thing you're missing the psychoanalysis portions of the yozi's fluff. It's the same thing as solar. If you can't describe your Infernal's custom shintai in a cool way then that's a you problem. You get as much out as you put in. If you're lazy then just take a pre-canned option, which are in the book and will no doubt exist by the hundreds soon enough.
>>97053170infernals as the "whatever you want" exalt is inherently lame. they are the gayest shit and when this franchise is dead I'll piss on their grave
>>97053181Ironic considering they are the reason for why the franchise lasted so long.
>>97053310imagine the splat entirely about your purple prose masturbatory nonsense being popular among the diehard ghouls who do nothing but produce that shit.
>>97053181>infernals as the "whatever you want" exalt is inherently lameI said that with Devil Tigers yet people considered them one of the greatest things of the franchise.
>>97053339Yeah, that has literally always been the target audience for everything White Wolf. Your point?
>>97053339...That's people who like Wicked Graceful Masques and Elder Essence.
>>97053353>Your point?my point is apparently i hurt your feelings and infernals are especially shit because they exist to invoke that overwrought prose instead of heroic fantasy.
>>97053358>Wicked Graceful MasquesActual garbage.
>>97053339Funnily enough, Infernals and Solars were the less mastubatory purple prose splats.In fact, the most were Dragon-Blooded, Sidereals and Abyssals, who are also the most WoD like.
>>97053366You might as well toss everything aside from Solars and Dragon-Blooded, not a single one of the other splats actually invokes anything with the feel of heroic fantasy. Pigeonholing Exalted into the "epic heroic fantasy" system has been a lost cause since 1e, so it's a wonder you've somehow stuck around like a stubborn leech for 20 years..
>>97053407this is incredibly disingenuous. exalted bills itself as heroic, epic fantasy constantly throughout nearly everything. every piece of advice you got was to be a larger than life hero with big aims and big goals. especially in 2e when infernals were introduced.>>97053403i guess that's a subjective opinion, but generally, i felt the opposite. solars, dbs, abyssals, and lunars always felt pretty on the nose. sidereals were on the borderline.
>>97053407 >Pigeonholing Exalted into the "epic heroic fantasy" system has been a lost cause since 1e, so it's a wonder you've somehow stuck around like a stubborn leech for 20 yearsNigger I started in second edition and you couldn't go 2 pages without talking about Epic Heroes. The fuck you get off calling anyone a stubborn leech with obvious lies like yours. What the fuck do you think the game even is if not a game of epic heroism? (Disregard that post fuckup)
>>97053380doesn't matter, it's that book and the Inkmonkies stuff that's filled with the most purple prose bullshit.>>97053351It's a build your own exalt type in a dead game that people got super obsessed with. They are literally exigents with worse lore and far worse mechanics. I'm not surprised people fell head over heels for them.
>>97053486Remember when fags wanted to redeem yozi by inventing charms? Retarded as fuck
>>97053486>They are literally exigents with worse lore and far worse mechanics.I would not say that lol.Building up to becoming a primordial is vastly cooler than exigent numinous lore.
>>97053516yes yozi being charms, infernal charms being yozi charms, and infernal endgoal of stopping to be an exalt was stupid>>97053543thanks for reminding me of that stupid shit as well
>Heroic fantasy.This was only a niche for Solars, and maybe Lunars.The latter is more like the antagonists of said genre.Other splats are based on other things, for example, Dragon-Blooded are political fantasy like game of thrones.
>>97053516Like a lot of 2e stuff it sounds neat as an idea but if you put it into practice it sucks ass. You want Infernal charms to fit a certain theme then go ahead and say that you can change said creature by designing charms that go against that theme. It makes no fucking sense.I like the Yozi so them being redeemed isn't an issue to me. But my god is 2e the edition of "neat ideas done the stupidest way." Did you know that Infernals have the fewest amount of charms of any solar tier exalted? You'd think they'd have focused on that instead of turning it into "Build you own custom splat during epic level play."
>>97053560yes exigents are an abortion that should be forgotten or atleast made apocryphal.
>>97053543I totally look forward to stopping playing the game because I became a setpiece instead of being a cool character. Gay as fuck, dude.>>97053569Dragonblooded are still heroic fantasy. What the fuck is this nonsense? What is the genre to you?
>>97053560Having played a bunch of 2e it's less "End goal of stopping being an exalt" and more an "End goal of being a super fucking cool non-human god thing." Some of the permanent charms 2e infernals could get were really cool.Basically people really wanted to play Sephiroth.
>>97053574>Like a lot of 2e stuff it sounds neat as an idea but if you put it into practice it sucks ass. You want Infernal charms to fit a certain theme then go ahead and say that you can change said creature by designing charms that go against that theme. It makes no fucking sense.It is like mantling from Elder Scrolls, you walk like a primordial until the primordial walks like you.
>>97053569>The latter is more like the antagonists of said genre.this is what I try to drill into anons head lunars are not silver solars or animal exalted but monsters full of wyld power.
>>97053591>I totally look forward to stopping playing the game because I became a setpiece instead of being a cool character. Gay as fuck, dude.The only thing that stops you from playing them in 2e is the fact that it's elder essence play and all that stuff depends vastly on the table you're playing at. Plus, you know, you have to put in the actual work of designing all the charms. And balancing them.It's like that infernal charm at essence 10 that turns you into the ebon dragon. You could still play that character! Good luck though because the rules melt at that level, the same way they do in DnD.
>>97053591>I became a setpiece instead of being a cool character. Gay as fuck, dude.Woah calm down there is at least a few alchemical fans out there and the problem is easy to fix by allowing you to control a humanoid body instead of your city body.
>>97053603>.>this is what I try to drill into anons head lunars are not silver solars or animal exalted but monsters full of wyld powerIt is an identity crisis, they try to ape Kull, but end up as a worse version of the snake men.
>>97053581that is also true
>>97053597Mantling from Elder Scrolls is more complicated because you can't really mantle something that's trying to stop you. Besides, Dagoth Ur was right and CHIM is a lie. There is only the beating of the Heart.
>>97053591>Dragonblooded are still heroic fantasy. What the fuck is this nonsense? What is the genre to you?Something Howardian.
>>97053595Your shit isn't cool though. It's lame and I haven't seen a single devil tiger concept that I would even wipe my ass with >>97053612So basically I stop playing the game. Thanks>>97053603That also sounds very unfun. I wanna be enkidu. I don't wanna be grendel
>>97053643The souce material is fucking manga and epic poems
>>97053633>you can't really mantle something that's trying to stop youConsidering Akatosh and Lorkhan's deepest lore, it is actually the most common form of mantling. For example, see the opening of Skyrim.
>>97053667There are several references to Conan in 1e, Yurgen's exaltation is a copy of the ice giant's daughter.
>>97053597Whatever you say, it was retarded. The people who like it have bad taste and I'm tired of pretending they don't.
>>97053680Yes but that doesn't change that epic poems and manga are also major parts of their vision
>>97053705I didn't say that they weren't, I just said that heroic fantasy is more like Howard's works, instead of Dragon-Blooded who are more in line with Martin's political fantasy.
>>97053650>That also sounds very unfun. I wanna be enkidu. I don't wanna be grendelDeeply homosexual.Besides my idea doesn't even proclude that concept Enkidou was meant to be the Grendel to Gilgamesh but end up becoming his friend after Gilgamesh extends his hand to him after defeating Enkidou.
>>97053672Much like Exalted the Elder Scrolls lore changes a lot between games. Maybe it's possible to mantle something unwilling now that's trying to stop you. From what I remember though that's not really a thing. It's Elder Scrolls lore so it's all a bit of a mess.tl;dr in order to mantle something you need to do way more then just walking like them. That's more a first step sorta deal. It's also all a bunch of Vivec propaganda - the only power that's real is the Heart. Wake the fuck up Samurai. It's time to restart the game and talk to Daddy Dagoth.>>97053650Yeah, pretty much? Some people played epic exalted. I always found the rules to be too much of a headache to run at that essence level though. Some people love that shit though.
>>97053724>Enkidu is the Grendel to Gilgamesh.He is literally and figuratively the man (whore) of his dreams,
>>97053744>He is literally and figuratively the man (whore) of his dreams,???Enkidou was created by the gods as the perfect nemesis for Gilgamesh.The problem was that their plan was subverted by him being seduced by civilization represented by a prostitute.
>>97053768nah man it was super gay. read a book.
>>97053768>In the dream, a heavy meteor falls from the sky to Earth, which Gilgamesh is unable to lift. The people of Uruk gather around it, and Gilgamesh embraces it "as a wife".>His mother, the goddess Ninsun, interprets the dream for him:>The meteor represents amighty manwho will soon arrive in Uruk.This man will be Gilgamesh's equal in strength, a belovedcompanionand friend who will help him perform great deeds."Meteor" is a summerian slang for male prostitute, similar to how "sheepfold = vagina".
>>97053724Grendel is not Beowulf's near equal who became his best friend. Grendel got fucking btfo because he didn't realize that beowulf was the baddest motherfucker this side of Scandinavia
>>97053804True. His mom gave him a run for his money, but Grendel was a fucking pussy who was only a threat because Hrothgar was a bitch who couldn't fight his own battles
>>97053603>this is what I try to drill into anons head lunars are not silver solars or animal exalted but monsters full of wyld power.Then you should stop because it's a lame, retarded, unfun premise.
>>97054114You guys are retarded and will never have fun Lunars because of this retardation
>>97053795So iare both Gilgamesh and Enkidu male prostitutes?Both are compared to meteoritesThat something can be used as slang doesn't mean its being employed so everytime,
>>97054127I don't get this because Moon has so many themes to work with. Animals and transformations and chaos are just a few. It's literally the Moon. Of course there are a fuck ton of myths to draw on.My personal favorite are the furries and madness but that's me. Tbh I'm not even sure what you people mean by Wyld Power. It seems like you mean Moon Power.
>>97054147>Tbh I'm not even sure what you people mean by Wyld Power. It seems like you mean Moon Power.Woah you are getting it!The ide aof making them monsters basically gives them free reign to encompass a vast range of themes they can induce madness, breathe fire, petrify with their gaze, extended blood powers, etc.They are nightmarish monsters and being alighned with the wyld offers infinite possibilities.
>>97032143What do you guys think of the 3e Infernal Castes and Devil Bodies so far?
>>97054184I like both. Yozi names being math stuff is interesting even if I don't really get it. Architects of creation and all that I suppose. That's really all I know so far so if anyone has any extra info I'd love to read it.For Devil Bodies I'm wondering if there will be transformations/parts that don't align with any Yozi. I imagine no; that all devil-body pieces will in some way be represented by a Yozi. Like Oramus being able to turn himself into an egg with his wings or whatever. Or turning into a bunch of spheres. But it all still aligns with the demon/yozi theme.desu desu I just want to read more about them. Gonna be awhile before we can play them so........
>>97054202The caste names are navigation / astronomy terms aren't they?
>>97053069I don't see the need for there to be more. Lunars seem to be popular with the player base outside of the outlier that is this general's regular posters, so I'm unsure as to why they must change to suit this thread's needs and not the needs of, say, the Discord.
>>97054260Yes? Maybe? I thought it was just a math thing but seeing as how it'd math it might be both? Gotta be real I'm brain farting super hard on these and it's making me feel a bit silly.Azimuth,Ascendant,Horizon,Nadir,Penumbra.
>>97054260They are based on celestial coordinates.
>>97054356but what about penumbra.
>>97054382Penumbra is the shadow of the moon/earth that causes eclipses
>>97054180>Aligned with the WyldCompletely unnecessary.>the wyld offers infinite possibilitiesCounterproductive to actually writing up an interesting character type. What stretches creativity is when you put yourself under more and more substantial restrictions.
Can you leverage multiple intimacies in a single social influence roll without using Charms?
>>97054534Sort of. If something forces a decision point, you have to leverage another Intimacy aside from the one that applied to the initial roll.
>>97054180Nightmare monsters fucking sucks, though. This is why TAW sucks, because it takes the humanity out of the splat. If I wanted to play a Fair Folk, there's already ways to do that.
>>97054202>Yozi names being math stuffWait, what?>>97054356>>97054401Oh, is this what you mean?
>>97053574>Did you know that Infernals have the fewest amount of charms of any solar tier exaltedBecause they can do more with less. Pick a bunch of Adorjan Charms and you're an invincible ninja blender running at Mach 5 on crystal meth.
>>97055111And frankly, we NEED smaller Charmsets. 3e Solars alone are a perfect example of what Charm bloat does to a game.
>>97054496It really feels like most of these suggestions are just playing Raksha
>>97055219While also ignoring that the promise of everything infinite in the Wyld did jack all to keep the raksha relevant or interesting. It just amounted to free-form stunting on actions, most of them shaping combat actions.
>>97055111Doing this right now: Just started a game and my rabbit beastman scourge only started with adorjan and crystal chameleon charms. Her shopping list for upcoming charms has about 11 or 12 adorjan charms on it and only 6 others split between Malfeas and Cecelyne.
>>97055111ehhh. The game still boils down to dice rolls and actions. I'm not doubting that infernal charms are powerful and I personally think they should be equals with Solars but "less is more" is just a fancy way of saying "less".I mean, infernals have the coolest charms of all the exalted but still.
>>97032143I don't have the PDF to know exactly what they're doing with new infernals, but abandoning having flavourful yozi charms was an objective mistake.Yes, punt the Lillun stuff into the sun and never speak of it again, but don't throw the good out with the bad.Also I'll be real I've never vibed with Devs of any RPG trying to hardcore push that anything is totally impossible. Sure, the reclamation being an impending threat at every table would be lame, but I'm afraid you couldn't do jack shit to stop me if I wanted to run a reclamation campaign and found it cool, so your attempt to go "Waaah that was a terrible idea and we need to emphasise it's completely impossible" is impressing no one. Your job making a campaign world is to build a sandbox people can adapt and run in different ways according to their own tastes.
>>97055417They're not abandoning the Yozi themes. They are abandoning the Charms as being the same Charms that the Yozis use. The only things they're ditching is the process theology angle of forcing changes on the Yozis by making new Yozi Charms, and becoming Primordials after shucking your humanity and Exaltation.
>>97055462Except then they reintroduce soul hierarchies for Infernals? That's confirmed and was like a third of what made Devil-Tigers a thing (along with custom charms and the world-body, which might also still be a thing).
>>97055499They get to build a demonic soul hierarchy, but they remain human and Exalted. Their spot at the top doesn't turn them into a Yozi, no matter how many third circle souls they get. They're perpetually working with the flavor of Yozis and the broader environment of hell, as the Chosen of said things.
>>97055412It's actually annoying because they can get so much more with less. While it can be somewhat harder for them to branch out, it's really easy for them to just make a very solid character archetype because the devs only apply lessons about charm efficiency to them for some reason. Everybody else requires a higher level of system Mastery in order to do the concept you want.
>>97055532It is because of the charmsets being already made characters, you just find the 2 more compatible yozis and be happy.I once played with a dude who only went mono yozi.
>>97055462Devil tigers don't shuck their exaltation, they become an elder exalted with many borrowed primordial traits including third and second circle demon minions.The only way to fully become the primordial your devil tiger designed based on themselves is to die and hope some idiot takes your entire charmset including the final one that causes identity death and turns them into a jouten of the themes the devil tiger designed.Which would take millennia, require the guy doing it to be a total moron and still not include the original devil tigers deceased upper soul.
>>97055532>>97055550What is wrong with streamlining Charmsets and making them more efficient?
>>97055417Exalted lore was built on a couple core things, like you're not able to change the past and dead people don't come back to life. You're obviously for you to ignore this at your table, but a lot of these decisions were made in order to hammer home the point that consequences are forever.>>97055568There's nothing wrong with it, but it should be applied to everyone.
>>97055578>There's nothing wrong with it, but it should be applied to everyone.Then we're in agreement. I'll raise a toast to that.
>>97055550Yeah it's like solars who only take charms that are good for combat, or diplomacy, or stealth. Like I think infernal charms are some of the best charms it's still just lacking in a bunch of stuff.The earlier chapters go big in how infernals are going to be generals of infernal armies and the tip of the spear and they really have none of that. Again, while having the fewest charms. Also you don't WANT to be too unfocused, because if you are you can't get anything done and conflict with other players.Point is the reason infernals have fewer charms is because charm design is hard and they were the last ones made. Same reason why they don't have any war charms despite the books mentioning a bunch of times about how they're supposed to be generals and shit.Another thing that's funny is that from what I've been told this stuff about infernals being the fastest isn't even true. Other splats can and are faster then them, probably because they have more charms that support that kind of play. I don't have enough system mastery to say for sure though. Hopefully 3e will be better but I also expect a lack of infernal content for them.
>>97055587Adorjan plus some support stuff like crystal chameleon is definitely the fastest archetype, but hilariously there's a pretty early lunar charm that makes you one yard per tick faster than anyone you're chasing, so a chargen lunar can be faster than an E10 adorjani exalted specifically when chasing them.
>>97055603I'm like... 70% sure there are a few other charms that make you as fast as the thing you're chasing or to that effect. Could be trippin though.
>>97055614Probably, but at that point you're just leeching speed off the guy actually generating it.
>>97055622True enough. There is also that charm being something you repurchase, a mechanic that comes up a bunch for Infernals in 2e. So that one infernal charm is actually five charms with slightly bigger numbers then the last. I mean other splats have that as well, it's just worth mentioning.
>>97055614I think there are a couple things that also just negate the concept of relative speed. As in, you're just there or you always arrived first.
>>97055640Wind borne stride raises your base speed by an amount that increases each essence level and can be repurchased, yes.It's not actually mandatory to repurchase it but it does grant bonuses to multiple other charms based on how many times you have it, and one charm has taking it three times as a prerequisite.
>>97055650>97055650Yeah. I'm not selling infernals and their speed short though, shits super powerful and you can go really, really, -really- fast. It's just not the end all be all and it takes a fuck ton of charms. As it should be when you can do something so insane. I guess at least lol.My personal favorite charms besides the shintais are probably shadow spite curse or fucking By Rage Recast. That charm is insane. If we include the shintais then I honestly don't think I could decide.
>>97055663My table homebrewed this:**Malfeas****In Fury, Finesse**Cost: - ; Mins: Essence 3Type: PermanentKeywords: NoneDuration: PermanentPrerequisite Charms: By Rage RecastMalfeas' ever shifting body, a city without limits yet constrained within itself. His boundless rage however, is greater, driving this shifting formation of a city to make even greater wonders, but also to control what the city builds. This Charm enhances it's prerequisite in the following ways.The Mutation Point Library gains a Secondary pool of mutation points equal to (Essence x 5) on top of the original points. These mutations stored in this Secondary pool are not included when Devil-Tyrant Avatar Shintai is activated. You can perform a 1 hour meditative ritual to shift around mutations between your Primary and Secondary Libraries.The Mutation Point limit when Anima activates expands by (Essence) x 2.This charm also enhances Fealty Acknowledging Audience by increasing amount of mutations that can be granted with By Rage Recast by (Essence).
>>97055672honestly where did Malfeas even pick up mutation themes (as applied to himself; he mutates others sure, but Malfeas itself is very stable, just big). Surely you'd think there'd be a charm that makes you a big lad, or turn into archetecture, or build buildings faster, before that was even an idea, especially since Cecelyne, Kimbery, and SWLiHN already dabble with it.
>>97055614While trying to track down my own confused recollection of an “always fast enough” Adorjan Charm, I came across the wording of the E5 version of Adorjan’s Splintered Gale Shintai specifically saves an Infernal’s life by moving their souls and Exaltation “infinitely fast” to one of their mortal clones. So because Holden was too autistic to just write the word “teleport” or “portal”, it’s canon that for Adorjan’s E5 Charms can, for the cost of 30 motes, provide infinite speed over arbitrary distances within fairly narrowly set destinations and as long as there’s no teleportation-based warding in the way.
>>97055785What does infinitely fast even mean. Speed is only a measure of the time it took you to travel between two points.
>>97055417Because the very implication of the Reclaimation freeing the Yozi's made all other stories obsolete. If you want to run it at your own table fine, but the reason they're downplaying it is because of how big it was in Ex2 and wanting to explore other areas.As for the flavorful yozi charms, nigga we haven't even seen any yet. Unless you mean the "Infernal charms were yozi charms" stuff which I didn't like. It wasn't about exploring Infernal's, it was about exploring psychological factoids about the yozi's. My favorite fluff for charms were those of Infernal Monster, if only because it didn't cover any yozi and explored themes of the monster the yozi's truly created.
>>97054184My overall assessment of “Holy shit it’s nowhere near as bad as I thought this was going to be” continues. I’m vaguely annoyed they felt they need to make Infernals resonant to Orichalcum and capable of learning SMAs even though it’s objectively an upgrade, it just feels less on-theme. Also is it just me or does the Horizon and Ascendant caste statspread have a bit more overlap than usual? Anima banner powers are kind of underwhelming but that’s very, very low on my priorities right now.I’m gonna miss 2e Limit Breaks at least. 3e ones just making Infernals into unhinged loot goblins kind of just seems like normal player behaviour desu…there’s something really funny about the fact that Legendary Size is such a big deal it’s worth a whole 2 points in the Devil-Body section. If I didn’t know from the Discord there are allegedly going to be ways to dish it out without relying on the relatively harsh activation conditions (except for fucking Penumbras, goddamn it’s Conviction supremacy all over again) and IIRC more ways to get points than just the starter 5 I’d be concerned. As it is right now, it seems like a very trite and flavourless way of recreating the 2e Shintais for now-but if there’s ways to take it even further beyond, I’m as cautiously hopeful as I’ve been since the drafts started dropping. I wish it was explained what Fate-Suborning Doom and Mind-Corrupting Puissance actually do at different dot ratings, though. That said, I do like how it lets you basically make up your own bad touch effects if you want to fluff your immortality-killer as sending someone into the deepest corners of Isidoros’ asshole instead of Exiled By Wicked Hate. It feels like a subsystem Exigents needed to have actual defined effects instead of “just make up whatever lol”>>97055776I could see it as working off the radiation/twisted fertility thing he has going on, with all those biometallic plants he has.
>>97055821Considering it’s directly contested by anti-teleportation effects, I think Holden had some kind of autism fit where he decided Adorjan CANNOT teleport, she MOVES REALLY REALLY REALLY FAST AS FAST AS A TELEPORTER BUT IT’S NOT THE SAME THING OKAYIt’s like how he put prayer-eating in ExWoD because he seems convinced someone will really want to use it to play Kindred of the East for some reason
>>97055838>Because the very implication of the Reclaimation freeing the Yozi's made all other stories obsolete.Wasn't that one of the original reasons given why it couldn't happen? Like, so you don't feel pressured by an almost certain Armageddon
>>97055848>I could see it as working off the radiation/twisted fertility thing he has going on, with all those biometallic plants he has.but that's exactly why mutation makes sense effecting OTHER people, but not him/the infernal themself. Yet self-mutation is almost entirely his.
>>97055929It's because the entire thing is just a reference to the hulk. Sorry, that's it for real.
>>97055852>It’s like how he put prayer-eating in ExWoD because he seems convinced someone will really want to use it to play Kindred of the East for some reasonCome again?
>>97055848>I’m gonna miss 2e Limit Breaks at least. 3e ones just making Infernals into unhinged loot goblins kind of just seems like normal player behaviour desuMaybe there's a way to rework some 2e Limit Breaks for 3e Infernals? I don't remember 2e Infernal Limit Breaks, so forgive me if that's wrong.
>>97055848Malfeas 100% has a feminine fertility aspect that he's ashamed of in 2e. The Brass Dancer is just part of it.
>>97055852>MOVES REALLY REALLY REALLY FAST AS FAST AS A TELEPORTER BUT IT’S NOT THE SAME THING OKAYI mean the obvious reason is to keep it from being a 100% get-out-of-jail card by making physical obstacles actually relevant. So if you pop it while inside a cell or some other place you can't actually leave, it doesn't do shit.
>>97056175You could also use much simpler verbiage such as "move instantly" instead of dumbass bullshit like infinite speed.
>>97056178It's fucking stupid, but also you would absolutely have tismos arguing that "move instantly" is just a synonym for teleportation and then the charm would need an extra sentence explaining that it doesn't bypass physical obstacles like Holden kept slapping on ExWoD speed charms.
>>97056183As far as I know, teleport isn't even a game term is it? It's only ever used descriptively
>>97055776>Malfeas 100% has a feminine fertility aspect that he's ashamed of in 2e. The Brass Dancer is just part of it.>>97056170Isn't one of Malfelas' Souls literally a loli prostitute that is also Demon's City largest and most depraved Red Light District?
>>97056190No jokes, I'm pretty sure that's a thing. Not 100% on what book it's in though, you'd have to ask someone else.
>>97056197>>97056190>Ipithymia, the Street of Gold Lanterns>This soul of Malfeas is the personification of the Yozi’s lust and urges; the model for all other lesser avenues of sin and vice throughout the Demon City. The street is paved with the bones of virgins and lined with vast pleasure houses of brass and crystal. Brothels, torture theatres, and other such establishments operate under gold-colored lights which stretch for miles in each direction, no matter where one stands, and can be found on many levels of Malfeas simultaneously. Her lantern lights can be seen everywhere on the street, pushing aside the greenish light of Ligier to cast golden rays on all manner of strange and fantastic pleasures (Ligier allows this as part of an ancient agreement with his fellow soul, the details of which are a secret between the two of them).>When it takes her fancy, Ipithymia takes a mortal form and moves among her patrons and employees. >Ipithymia's favorite form is that of a golden-skinned, four-armed young female in the scant clothing of a dancer or courtesan.She appears a bit too young for her highly sexualized dress and manner. In this guise, she is often solicitous and sexually aggressive, especially toward powerful beings of non-demonic origin such as the Chosen.Other times, she might be summoned to Creation to aid a sorcerer in the arts of seduction, power-brokering and the breaking of the human spirit. Everywhere she goes, lust and debauchery escalates. Where she passes, the scent of sex and opiates hangs in the air. She can generate a longing and lust in all but the divinely chaste, and the thought of being denied her causes a pain so profound it physically harms. She has taken and destroyed more lovers than any can remember, and shows no signs of ceasing.
>>97055120Perfect time for Ink Monkeys 3.5
>>97056190>Malfeas 100% has a feminine fertility aspect that he's ashamed of in 2e. The Brass Dancer is just part of it.not sure what that has to do with anything though
>>97056265I'd be up to it after finishing another project but I'm going to be honest, I don't think I would have the motivation to do it with my current grievances on the setting. I'm one of those guys that's got a bone to pick with how Lunars AND Infernals are characterized. And that's not even getting into the weird new third edition specific stuff.
>>97054184I was originally worried that Devil-Bodies were going to be a real bitch to ST for and use as NPCs even if they are very stylish, since they're these huge social or combat power spikes with somewhat unpredictable triggers and win-target-fight abilities that need specific planning for on the ST side, but I've chilled out a bit since it was pointed out that if you get incapped and go devil-body, you are still incapped after it wears off, so if a non-Azimuth doesn't finagle the trigger they don't get to use it to just remove all stakes. They have to either find some emergency healing once they turn back or their devil-body is just a dying rampage.Narratively, very cool, definitely looking forward to getting into these.
>>97056241>would you fuck me?>I'd fuck me
>>97055578>Exalted lore was built on a couple core things, like you're not able to change the past and dead people don't come back to life.It's really endearing how people actually assume that 1e, even books by Grabowski, followed these rules.
I looked into Exalted because of T-Rexes in F14s. Anything that's not that, I'm not interested, and I don't care what purists think
>>97056687Based. As much as I used to be concerned about Devil-Bodies, I do appreciate they’re a solid example of the T-rex in F14 school of Exalted thought.>>97056382Are they really that big a concern? Stylish, sure, but nominally an Infernal has to await an alpha strike before dishing one out (except Penumbrals lol) and 3e is a bad place to eat an alpha strike in. Fancy, yes, but unless the 3e version of The King Still Stands is meant to specifically bandaid that like you said, by default Devil-Bodies only become relevant when shit is already going south for an Infernal. It’s not like a Lunar’s warform where they can just whip out a Legendary Size combat mode at will, and the tradeoff for Legendary Size is much steeper for Infernals.
>>97056681Don't give a fuck about what you think is endearing you twat, those rules were good ideas and in there for good reasons.
Actually, come to think on it, those guiding principles on what should and shouldn't be in the setting where things that I remember the community boasting about as far as good design ideas. This was particularly true because Other Game (D&D) doesn't treat these concepts as importantly, like time travel, meaningful consequences, death, etc. Why is that quaint now?
>>97056792It's not, it's just genwunners acting superior for no reason
>>97056723I'm more worried about the assorted curse stuff, overwhelming reduction and extra init track, since a -3 on all combat pools can make it really hard to bust through something like Legendary Size withering defence during the inevitable phase 2. If you couldn't punch someone through -4s and get them to "this is going to suck when it wears off" territory without beating the devil-body first it would be very rough to deal with, since this is still presumably on top of a Solar-grade innate combat suite and you just used all your init and probably a lot of resources to get them to that point in the first place.I think it'll probably work out fine for the real bosses, since they'll be built expecting Devil-Body and have the danger level to be relevant anyway, it's just a potential concern that a more normal scene might just get completely rinsed by a devil-body trigger due to the volume of options in there that demand particular counters (have hit dematerialised/shaping defence charms or lose) when barely any pre-written enemies have these things, and that might be unsatisfying for someone to have used their super mode on.
>>97056687You're into Exalted because of something that wasn't in Exalted?
