I contend that based on mechanics, ease of use and adaptation, ease of modification (though I would stick to Pondsmith's version as much as possible as it's just about perfect), it's rules being shown as accurate to real life firefights in a study done recently and the fact that it's modular and can be dropped right in and used in ANY tabletop game with firearms: that R. Talsorian Games/Mike Pondsmith have created the GREATEST tabletop system for gun fights in the history of TTRPGs.Thoughts? If you disagree I'd love to hear why or if you agree please post why. Let's get a discussion going on this stellar and very unique combat system and frankly, game overall itself.
O shit, I had no idea it was system agnosticThat woulda come in handy when playing that gritty modern-day not!supes conspiracy thriller adventure
>>97076792My PC got shot the first round then I spent the rest of the evening doing nothing while my character was unconscious due to shock until they bled to death.I had better time playing RED.
>>97076897Red just uses an (inferior) modified and mangled FNFF system
>>97076864Iirc first edition Cyberpunk has the rules for FNF as a separate booklet and uses a separate small sheet for combat, while the actual character sheet itself is used for out of combat stuff. The idea being that FNF would be modular for other systems. I’m pretty sure that got dropped with 2020 though.
>>97076792>shown as accurate to real life firefights in a studyExplain further.
>>97076897Working as intended. Getting into a firefight is a fail state, and you should be happy you survived, gayboy.
>>97076792From his own description it's not only pretty boring in general, it's diametrically opposite to the specific characteristics of cyberpunk fight. Which is to mean cinematic, mood-driven and not at all realistic.Pretty close to my CP experience, in fact.
>>97077297>Getting into a firefight is a fail state,>The thing the system is based around, and has the most rules for, is a fail stateOSRites need to be killed. I'm not even joking. We need to start rounding them up and putting them in gas chambers for the damage they have caused to this hobby.
>>97076792I disagree with your assertion that FNFF has a focus on realism foremost, as you can stack modifiers like dual-wielding and run and gun to instead emulate a more action movie format where the best option is to undertake radical stunts by stacking bonuses.Also, martial arts doing more damage than most light firearms is badass but not the most realistic.Cyberpunk 2020 has a focus on emulating action films and 80s anime/manga (they even rip designs straight from Appleseed) with a veneer of advertised realism. It is more deadly than the average system, but it still lets you get away with pretty out there stuff in the name of Style over Substance, which is something they directly bring up verbatim in the book.
>>97077297I didn't survive, but that's not the point.I wouldn't mind character death if I didn't have to spend the rest of the session doing literally nothing but making stun/death saves.In RED, even as I see my character getting caught up in a death spiral, I can still do stuff even with a big fat malus. So hiding behind cover, throwing smoke grenades under my feet, flipping switches, closing doors etc. remain possibilities.
>>97076897Somehow I disbelieve this unless your character had next to no BOD, the combat lasted only two rounds or you were hit so badly by such a huge caliber you shouldn't have even bothered rolling.
>>97077294Disclaimer: This is from Reddit but this dude provides sources and Pondsmith himself replies to it:>_<Some folks might not really appreciate the genius that is the core mechanics of Friday Night Firefight. To be frank: With the exception of ludicrously effective armor, you will not find a more realistic system of combat resolution out there.>Time and time again, I've watched police bodycam footage, watched competition footage, read AARs, watched combat footage... and every time, bar none, I've been able to create a turn sequence and series of modifiers in Cyberpunk 2020's combat system that would result in the exact events that played out in reality.1/2
>>97077724>Recently, there was a question about rifles and the realism of 100m/200m/400m/800m range bands. I went ahead and thought about the stuff I've viewed and the rifles I've shota nd I was struck once again by how accurate FNFF is to reality. I decided to use a 12 second clip in this video.>Reference Video, cued to the 12-second clip in question.>Starting at 17m 39s in this video, there is an interesting string of fire that lasts all of 12 seconds, and is (in my opinion) very instructive of what is possible with a rifle at medium range. Here, we have Russell Phagan, a skilled competitive shooter that I would peg to something along the lines of REF: 7, Rifle: 8. He's approaching a position that features very small poppers (probably about 6" wide) at a distance of about 150 yards, or 140-ish meters. To translate that into layman's terms for those of us who haven't shot rifles at distance, those are difficult, but not extremely difficult shots. These are the modifiers I'd place on this shot in Cyberpunk:Medium Range To-Hit difficulty: 20Tiny Target: -6Target immobile: +4Telescopic Sight at Medium Range: +1Rifle WA: +1The roll: 7 + 8 - 6 + 6 + 1D10Turn One: Russell takes a knee behind the tank trap. At my table, I'd give him a +2 to-hit for bracing the rifle, but that would only offset the more severe -8 Tiny Target penalty that I use, so my homebrew is a wash with the system as written.Turn Two: Two shots at the first target. Miss, Hit.Turn Three: 2 shots at the second target. Miss, Hit.Turn Four: Two shots at the third target. Miss, Hit.>Neatly, this lines up with a semi-automatic ROF of 2 shots per round without penalty for three rounds, with a total roll of 15 + 1D10 against a To-Hit of 20 precisely matching his 50% hit rate over 12 seconds.>I'll say it again: Don't deviate too much from the core mechanics of Cyberpunk's combat system. When it comes to realism, Pondsmith et al. pretty much got it right the first time with FNFF.
>>97077689I had 8 BOD and thought I was safe and then I rolled 9+ on Stun Save five times in a row. :-(Actually no, not in a row. I passed the save once, but since it happened at the end of the turn, I couldn't do anything that turn and before my next turn happened, the PC was shot again to continue rolling 9+.
>>97077724>>97077772This sounds pretty retarded. The 2020 book has for movie references (easier to come to mind than the books... which are probably even more distant)Blade RunnerMax HeadroomRobocopTerminatorAlienLiquid SkyThunderdomeCyborg Total RecallMad MaxYou gotta look REALLY hard to find something even distantly seeming "realistic" there. Not even Blade Runner (which is not absurdly violent, but still). Why would the game go into that direction? It's like having appendix N and then DND going into the direction of mercenaries killed by cholera more than battles. Can you see Conan diying on the shitter? This kind of autism might of might be not interesting, but having a game with THOSE aesthetical aims and then wanking over realism it's incoherent as fuck.
>>97077772Links in his post: (ya ya reddit i know)The turn sequence he said he came up with a series of modifiers:https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunk2020/s/qhpkkphDipHere is the reference video he refers to:https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yhp-ZZxz71o&t=1058s&pp=2AGiCJACAQ%3D%3DThe original post, good discussion on FNF:https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunk2020/s/0a0UD7cvsh
>>97077793See>>97077817Pondsmith himself replied go this post. Here is what he had to say about the iconic system he created:Mike Pondsmith:>The reason FNFF combat is so realistic is because I very deliberately set out to simulate real ranged weapon combat as closely as I could. Damage, for example, was based on muzzle velocity, bullet weight and referenced against real ballistics damage reports from the Army and FBI (as well as two buddies who were actual Ranger medics in Iraq). Range difficulties came from police and FBI records from real gunfights and range data. I also own and shoot a variety of handguns and rifles so I have a pretty good "feel" for how they feel and operate. Because there's no replacing experience.>And although people complain about the armor, that was also constructed based on real armors of the type--in most cases, handguns aren't going to penetrate Kevlar body armors while rifles will plow through it with ease unless you add plates. And the stuff is heavy (I know, I own body armor), which is why stacking and encumbrance are a real thing in FNFF. >Most people don't believe or accept the tons of work that we put into making FNFF realistic. LEOs and military guys do though, and they tell us all the time. So I appreciate the work you put into this demo and would like to thanks you for taking the time. Bravo, choomba. Well done.So provocateurs can fuck off, FNF is the best gunplay combat system ever maxe cof a TTRPÞ
>>97077847So yeah, not an answer. I'd be surprised if grognards would even think of that, anyway.
>>97076792The -3 applied over consecutive actions is dumb and unintuitive to the system and the GM guidebook even makes note of how players will abuse this while giving no actual constructive feedback on ways to fix it beyond “just be a dick to them.”I instead homebrew it so players must declare all actions being taken and take an additional -2 to every rolled action for each extra action they use.-4 modifier for headshots is ridiculous in this game where beating aim DVs is incredibly easy, should be -8 like RED (where said modifier is also ridiculous for the opposite reason)The cover mechanics are either very poorly thought out or very poorly explained.Martial arts just seem a goofy mechanic to me and the expanded rules don’t help. I really don’t think a person with literal 1 point in tae kwon do should have an extra +3 to punch accuracy and damage or whatever the bonus is.Autofire can be a pain in the ass to resolve.
>>97077724>in a study done recently>some guy made a reddit post>in which he plucked some numbers out of the air>the game's 50% accuracy matched the video over six whole shotsI believe you're serious. I just can't work out why.
>>97076792FNFF is fucking awesome, it's also not very good to play with and I eventually stopped. It's too much hassle.>>97077793Robocop and Blade Runner is where I lay my hat. There's guns, then there's big guns, and both are lethal but one is more lethal than the other. What's the point past that? Sure, simulation is fun in and of itself, but when you want to actually have gunfights like in an action movie, it just gets in the way. Call of Cthulhu is better suited for fast paced action than FNFF and that makes me very upset.
>>97077793I am talking about the gunplay combat system Pondsmith developed for the game, the original of which is modular and can be used in any setting that has small scale gun fighting realistic, NOT the setting with fucking robots and shit skulking around as realistic, goddamn how autistic are you?
>>97078360Every RP game is "good" solely regarding the amount by which it can generate a certain fiction.Does this shit generate Mad Max fights, anon? Notice that I used the most non-cybergadget movie because of your non-cybergadget example (you're actually right gadgets and implants would make the comparision more complicated, even if I wasn't thinking about those).
Hey fellas, speaking of Cyberpunk, I saw RED just put out a Single Player Mode book that you can, in conjuction with the players handbook, be able to play the game alone which sounds awesome.Would anyone happen to have a link to a pdf of Cyberpunk RED: Single Player Mode? Can't seem to find one anywhere yet.
>>97079394You can try asking the cyberpunk general, but the cymbergaj place doesn't have it.
>>97076792>Thoughts?FNFF Is incredibly mediocre and does not work well from a simulationist or gamist approach, nor as a fun middleground.It's good for when it was made though and a good GM can still make it work.
>>97077724>and every time, bar none, I've been able to create a turn sequence and series of modifiers in Cyberpunk 2020's combat system that would result in the exact events that played out in reality.You can do this with DnD too kek. Is this how our redditards think when they approach game design, bass ackwards?
>>97079573Is there other ways to make an RPG playable solo? Like took Cyberpunk 2020 and used another system to make it solo able?
>>97077297it's not called friday night deescalation
>>97079720GM Emulator. Or a more simplistic oracle, like the One Page Dolo Engine.
>>97077034>I’m pretty sure that got dropped with 2020 though.I'm pretty sure I agree with you. It got much bigger, more intricate, more integrated into the rpg and incorporated into the main book, not a standalone booklet.
>>97076792it's very simplistic and frankly kind of boring to actually play in my experience>ease of use/adaptation/modificationbecause there's barely anything there>realisticwho the fuck cares?>uniqueit's pretty fuckin similar to a lot of other shootan rpgs
>>97077724>you will not find a more realistic system of combat resolution out there.Phoenix Command exists.
>>97077847He made Armor too cheap and lightweight. Doesn’t matter how good it is, there is a fundamental disconnect between the setting as written and how it’s played.
>>97079991And it sucks>>97080022Armor plates are heavy and expensive in our modern day. In the future of Cyberpunk technology has advanced to make cheap strong lightweight armor. With the state of the world, it was in high demand and technological breakthroughs happened, as they do
>>97079861Can you link me to those please?
>>97080485https://inflatablestudios.itch.io/one-page-solo-engineOr Google"MythicGM Emulator"
>>97076792where do the studies come from? I tried to look for them myself and haven't come up with any
>>97076792FNFF isn't as realistic or well-researched as Pondsmith said it was. That's just a marketing gimmick he used to advertise his game.The whole ranged combat resolution is based on anti-aircraft artillery shooting, where range and target speed are the main factors affecting hit probability. In reality, everyone doing combat shooting knows that the shooter's movement has much more impact than range on hit probability. In this regard, Advanced Recon is way more realistic as it uses three distinct shooting types: 1. Turkey shot (you're in ambush, take time to aim, and your target is unaware) 2. Like 1 but the target is running moving towards cover or dodging. 3. Everyone is running and dodging.Also, while gun damage is fairly realistic, martial arts and melee damage are absolutely unrealistic, because FNFF doesn't differentiate between blunt damage (punches, kicks, baseball bats, nunchakus, etc.) and piercing/slashing damage (bullets, knives, swords, Wolvers...). So, you have knives doing less damage than martial art kicks, and a nunchaku doing more damage than a heavy handgun (3d6 + damage bonus vs. 3d6). Also, don't get me started on the martial arts which have bonuses according to how much Mike Pondsmith likes them.Small arms ammo types aren't modelled properly, too. For some reason an AP round does less damage than an FMJ round, while in reality both types simply do icepick wounds (excepted maybe 5.56mm M193 that tends to fragment).My last complaints would be that: a) the system is Hit Point based instead of Wound Level based. Okay, the hit points are divided in 10 levels (of which 7 are just different mortal levels), and a solid hit to the head will instantly kill a character (but not in the torso for reasons).b) explosive and buckshot damage are very poorly simulated.
>>97077847Armor isn't that realisticly modelled. A real-life level 3A vest will stop completely a .44 Magnum round. So, it would have an armor value of at least 20.A level 3 plate can reliably stop three hits of 7.62x51mm ball ammo. Its armor value should be around 30. A level 4 plates can stop reliably one .30-06 AP round. That would be an armor value of about 60.
Sorry for the autistic rambling.
>>97087200>>97087233DVs to hit based on effective engagement ranges is definitely a choice.Bladed weapons do have a difference to blunt weapons in that they pierce armor.The idea of any armor completely blocking a bullet is honestly retarded. Not only does an armor vest not cover your entire body and leave plenty of spaces for that .44 bullet to just knick you directly but (ceramic plates in particular) a .44 round hitting a vest designed to stop up to .44 rounds will in most cases hit with enough force to knock you to the floor and likely render your armor practically useless. Even sustained fire from 9mm will shred light kevlar, because to no one’s surprise, bullet proof vests are not actually magically bullet proof, they are designed to take the punishment for you and, ideally, keep you alive. Yes a vest designed to block 5.56 will get fucked up by likely a single round of 5.56. Between these factors and BTM subtracting damage from penetrating hits, armor values are if anything well beyond realistic in FNFF
>>97087690>The idea of any armor completely blocking a bullet is honestly retarded.>a .44 round hitting a vest designed to stop up to .44 rounds will in most cases hit with enough force to knock you to the floor and likely render your armor practically useless.
>>97076792I generally like it. My main gripes are:>a small moving target is no harder to hit than a large stationary one (technically, someone with REF 10+ does give a penalty to hit when moving, but that doesn't make any sense because you shouldn't need superhuman statistics for movement to be a factor, and REF is completely unrelated to move speed.)>the More Than One Action rule seemingly has no limit if the action you're trying doesn't require a roll to succeed>Firearms always deal maximum damage at point-blank range, which seems overkill. If damage is supposed to be a factor of kinetic-energy/penetration, then a point-blank shot shouldn't be much more damaging than a shot at close range. If damage is supposed to represent variable injury from hitting different vital organs within a hit location, then that's already represented by the randomness of the damage roll. A point-blank shot inflicting maximum damage would only make sense against a totally incapacitated target.>Firearms, especially longarms, suffer no penalties in melee combat>grappling rules are nearly non-existent>blocking with swords always works and always has the same random chance to break your sword, regardless of weapon skill or sword durability or damage blocked
>>97086505>where do the studies come from? I tried to look for them myself and haven't come up with anyBoth police and military gather and publish a metric fuckload of statistics from IRL firefights. If you haven't found any you haven't looked for them properly.
>>97087967>the police and military study RPGs
>>97076792Nah, sorry. While I do agree that the rules are pretty good, there is ONE crippling thing about Cyberpunk's 2020's rules that make me reluctant to play it ever again: it has the HIGHEST chance of rolling a critical fumble that I've ever seen in a TTRPG, ever. It sucks so much to play a system where everyone ends up as a circus full of clowns because they are disastrously getting themselves killed because the chances of rolling a natural 1 over the course of a session makes a critical fumble at some point inevitable.
>>97088101that's a GM issue, not a game issue.Translating a crit fail to>you slip in a banana, fall on your ass and slide all the way into an open manholeis on you.
>>97087967>Both police and military gather and publish a metric fuckload of statistics from IRL firefights. If you haven't found any you haven't looked for them properly.guess not I can only find academic bullshit
>>97088158GURPS has that kind of meaningless crit fail table where there's a good chance of it just being a regular fail and I don't like it.
>>97088158If I recall correctly, there is actually a fumble table you have to roll on every time you roll a one. So, in this instance, it's hard coded into the game, not gm fiat.
>>97088486You clearly do not recall correctly as it specifies it is a suggestion, not a rule.
>>97087690https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaS_2l8nGdghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwBLL7Z3OvUPlease educate yourself before talking. Back face deformation can hurt, it might crack ribs potentially. But it's extremely, extremely rare for it to put someone out of the fight and there's been zero recorded cases of someone being killed because of back face deformation. Trauma plates make it even less likely to even cause bruising, much less significant injury; see the first video where the armor stops a fucking .308 round at the muzzle and the guy was entirely fine.
>>97080472>Armor plates are heavy and expensive in our modern dayHonestly, a plate and vest isn't actually all that heavy in terms of raw weight. A fully complete IOTV with front and back plates, collar, groin protector and side plates is only between 30 and 35 lbs and it's reasonably well distributed. Compare that to the 50-60 of medieval plate armor. It's honestly a bigger problem that the plates are really restrictive rather than heavy since you're basically strapping a big slab of ceramics to your chest and back.
>>97090342Gonna bring this up but I'm fully retarded on the subject and you seem knowledgeable. A friend who served (I've met his mates on Remembrance Sunday) was telling me about a time when he saw someone get hit in the vest/plate/etc by a rifle bullet overseas. He said the guy went down, and needed to be picked up again to get moving. He said he thought it was psychological (not in a cowardice sense but literally brain malfunction) because he knew someone else found a huge piece of fragmentation stuck in their armour on the ride back to base and hadn't realised they'd been hit during the action. Should that be recognised/modelled?
>>97090600>Should that be recognised/modelled?In a tabletop RPG? No. Your friend is 200% right, it's purely a psychological thing when that happens. In reality, when you get shot, even with trauma plates on, you're absolutely going to feel it. Like someone just walloped you in the chest, your brain is gonna do a saving throw and decide whether not to make you believe you just died even if you're unharmed. All comes down to training/personal motivation/random chance in the moment. But in an RPG, no it's best not modeled because it's at the very least rolling yet another set of dice every time a hit is made; and it's not very conducive to a playable game when every shot has a 1/100, 1/1000 or 1/10000000 chance to stun you depending on level/skill investment/flaws and perks. Only make it relevant when there's no armor at all or you suffer cartoonish levels of backface deformation like a soft vest catching a .500 S&W magnum.
>>97090600NTA but shock damage is supposed to model that kind of thing.
>>97076792You sold me. Im going to give this system a shot
>>97090743This anon speaks the truth. It also leaves a massive fucking bruise more often than not.>>97090600Your friend might also be telling the truth here. Tons of guys feel nothing (physically or mentally) while immediately in the shit and have no idea what is going on except for what's immediately in front of them, then ten minutes after it's over hit the "oh my god what the fuck just happened" switch. Much more common than you might think,. t. former Army combat medic
>>97087690>DVs to hit based on effective engagement ranges is definitely a choice.It's a poor choice that contradicts his description of firefights (less than 5m distance most shots missing...), as it's way easier to hit a man-sized target running and gunning than it is to hit the same target at 50m while standing still in FNFF.I already took into account a 1 to 4 points of damage margin for backface deformation and stagged penetration in my armor calculations. The door gunner's vest still should be around SP 40, and not only 25.
>>97091930Ah the wonders of the bodies and bullets.My third world fat ass didn't felt the small handgun.22 that shot the side of my stomach till way later at the hospital, but I bitch and moan when shrapnel hit me while at the range because a retard shot a metal target at close range.
I had an idea based on a few attempts at "realisitic" SP values.If a bullet does more than 50% of your SP but does not penetrate, you take 1 point of Stun Damage. You don't make a Stun Save or anything, but you get the stacking wound penalties.Stun damage goes away 4 points for every 1 actual point of damage you heal or would heal.
>>97092952Congratulations. You've just invented Shadowrun's Stun/Physical damage system.
>>97090342tbf there is one recorded case of it, but it's such an extreme outlier of a situation that it isn't really worth considering.
>>97093190Okay yeah, that's kind of getting into the "comical amounts of backface" I'm thinking of. You ever see one of those guntubers shoot like a IIIa vest with a 12 gauge slug or .500 magnum or something and the whole thing gets spaghettified?
>>97093706comical amounts of blackface
>>97093190.45-70 isn't featured in NIJ standards. Armor deformation is also one reason why armored clothing isn't a thing. Even if a special fabric was to stop bullets, there would be nothing to prevent the clothes from being pushed inside the body as they're loose.
>>97098303>Armor deformation is also one reason why armored clothing isn't a thing.Define armored clothing. Because you can buy all kinds of ballistically resistant jackets and hoodies.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEDJI9PhfAM
>>97092922Damn bro. Good on you for surviving both.
Somewhere along the line, either SP is less for deforming or armour weighs/costs more because we don’t see every random thug dressing up in Kevlar suits to have street battles where Saturday Night Specials have the penetrating power of a baseball bat.
