>>97097470
>TQ
no, she's just dead. fell down the stairs of the imperial manse after nearly 900 years of life. she was trying to use it's rejuvenating properties, but you have to keep using it yearly to re-apply and that requires stairs or a trusted carrier.

I have no idea what to do with the Scarlet Empress. I do know I want her to be morally complicated and I don't want any of that RoTSE lore being used besides her name and maybe that stuff about the righteous dead.

If anyone has any cool ideas for what to do with her though I'd love to read it.

File: 265-afb550e3fd.jpg (338 KB, 903x1204)

338 KB JPG

>>97097696
Meanwhile in 1e.

>>97097696
I prefer her dead.

>>97075598
Previous thread

>>97097702
Hey not, it's just foreplay between consenting adults. You've got no right to judge. You're the weirdo for peeking on their intimate moments, you sick peeping tom you.

What's the most evil thing your exalt has done, wittingly or unwittingly?

>>97097702
This was back when she was a carry over for World of Darkness yeah? It just screams World of Darkness. As messy as this art is I just love it and wish we had more. Last thread had a badass fucking Hellraiser dude and I'm sad we don't have more of that.

As much as I'm liking 3e infernals I have to admit, I miss the gross gore. Not to say that 3e doesn't have gore, it does, it's just... not the same. Just not the same at all. But eh, nothing is perfect.

>>97097726
I have a habit of getting NPC's stuck in my area of effect powers. It's evil but when gods fight innocent people die so it feels flavorful to me. Very uh, anti-hero.

>>97097731
I think it is just the scrapped metaplot.
Reading 1e, you can notice that it was building to a second "season" featuring the Empress and the Ebon Dragon.

>>97097745
Honestly scrapping metaplot was such a smart idea that they hated following. There's a reason it always went poorly when they went back on it

>>97097731
If you're going to make suggestions, doing it during the drafting IS the time. Tell em you want it messy and fucked up
>>97097470
I don't run infernal games but I always just have her die an ignoble, petty death. I like to show all her politicking and lust for control was for nothing

>>97097779
I think that it is the nature of "rpgs as novels" aspect of white wolf games.

They seem to be incapable of disassociate the concept "the setting has history/lore" from "the setting has story(metaplot)".

Since when they stop with a metaplot/story, they will also nuke the history/lore of the game.

>>97097808
I feel like if I was a real fan I'd try drawing my own art for infernals. I'm pretty sure 3e Infernals art is all commissioned already but I have no clue.

I really hope people talk about how they love the messy Exalted art though, the devs seem to read a lot of stuff so maybe we'll see something. But I gotta be real, I think they already know.

>>97097696
What if she was in contact with the ebon dragon to the point she sold her last child to him (likely to be married to him and give him dragon blooded children) eventually she lowers her guard enough for the ebon dragon to trick her and kidnap her and then forced her to share the same destiny as her child.

So basically 1e lore.

>>97097864
I mean using stuff from other editions is cool. I do wonder, if you're in a setting where the Reclamation is impossible and the Yozi really are damned to be in Hell forever, why would the Ebon Dragon kidnap her? How would he react when he realizes that no, it won't free him and never had a chance to?

I think I like the idea of him wanting to birth a new race of Dragonblood, but instead of children of Gaia they're children of the Ebon Dragon. I don't really know what he could with that that'd be interesting though.

If you go the other way, with the Scarlet Empress having seduced the Dragon instead of the other way around then... Why would she do that. Why would a dragonblooded seduce the Ebon Dragon, what could they gain from it.

I really don't have any interesting ideas with her lol.

>>97097896
He does it because he is evil and he delights in others suffering, especially if he tricked them into it. A setting where it's impossible wouldn't change what he does in the slightest, because simply inflicting pain is an end goal for him.

>>97097896
>why would the Ebon Dragon kidnap her? How would he react when he realizes that no, it won't free him and never had a chance to?
Anon having basically a house of hell based BDs is huge for him they are basically proto infernals.
He would have a way to directly influence creation with agents that can come and go as he need them to instead of relying on summoners being tricked or fucking up and letting one of his lackies out.

>Why would a dragonblooded seduce the Ebon Dragon, what could they gain from it.
What could someone gain from a being that created the cosmos and holds ancient forgotten knowledge?

So what happened to those Dragon-Blooded with Underworld Aspects they teased here and there?

>>97097911
There is this idea that the Ebon Dragon is less evil in 3e and I don't really get it. the 2e Ebon Dragon and the 3s Ebon Dragon seem pretty much the same to me. Someone else is going to have to talk about why the prefer whatever edition of him. They both love doomed things, they both are toxic as hell, ect. The 3e Ebon Dragon feels less dumb but I think that's just because I don't like the metaplot he was involved with in 2e.

Lots of mixed feelings. I think a child though feels right - he has the queen of dragons and their child would be a prince of dragons, born from a dragon. Something that he couldn't do before being a Yozi because he was only a shadow. But now the erection is real and hard instead of ethereal and shadowlike.

Has to be some cooler options out there you'd think though...

>>97097921
Forgotten or pushed aside. Not that I think it's a good idea. Honestly my biggest criticism of third edition is that the setting was in dire need of simplification and instead we got more complicated bullshit.

>>97097938
>Not that I think it's a good idea.
Ah come on. Dragons of Another Color had potential as a setting element.

>>97097937
Personally I don't think he's important enough to focus on. He is a defeated shade only dangerous to the fools who listen to him, and in a way, that's what he would prefer to be. Besides, there are so many more interesting things in creation to base your story around instead of mucking around in hell with characters that had their chance and lost.

>>97097718
>>97097470

>>97097948
Like I said, the setting needed to be made simpler, cut the fat you know? Instead we have even more exalted complete with their own alterations and additions to the setting. Vaguely spooky dbs are not remotely on my list of necessary things

>>97097954
I mean I half agree. I do think adventures in hell would be very cool and it's one of the things I'm not eager about when it comes to 3e. Too much focus on the Yozi though is pretty bleh.

Saying that however, I like I imagine a lot of fans, I really want ideas for how to run a "redeem the Yozi" in 3e. You have people in super jail - it seems super obvious that people would want to fix that. I uh, just don't see that happening is all.

>>97097954
you sound gay

>>97097979
*One of the things I'm very eager about

>>97097979
The redemption thing was always really dumb, since you're not redeeming anything. It was some stupid byproduct about them having to know your charms. But they aren't people who need rehabilitation, certainly not the rehabilitation offered by slowly hollowing out their identity and replacing it with whatever you like. They are primeval monsters who are planning on destroying the world and replacing it with something more fun (for them) and less uppity.

File: 1761191248839990m.jpg (179 KB, 776x1024)

179 KB JPG

>>97097979
>You have people in super jail
>yozi
>people

>new Infernal preview snuck in the OP
Based Dr. Proton

>>97097978
>Like I said, the setting needed to be made simpler, cut the fat you know?
I wouldn't agree. The setting needs to be made more robust and internally coherent, but that doesn't mean throwing stuff out just for the sake of cutting unnecessary content.

>>97098135
It wouldn't be cutting stuff to cut it. It would be to strengthen core ideas and to keep efforts focused on more universal experiences. Exalted has always had a problem with over focusing on details and exceptions instead of having a clear vision for how the game should be played and delivering content for that

>>97098260
>It would be to strengthen core ideas and to keep efforts focused on more universal experiences. Exalted has always had a problem with over focusing on details and exceptions instead of having a clear vision for how the game should be played and delivering content for that
No. The goal should not be, ever, to just make it simpler without a more clear and limited scope. That's not the kind of direction that leads to a better game or more clear vision. Cutting a few of the the Exalted out, yes, good idea, not because it makes the game simpler, but because they don't make sense in the context of the setting and are symptoms of massive scope creep in the first place.

>>97098282
You said no but then just reworded my post. Did you misread it or something?

>>97098309
The reasons why you do things matter, dumbass.

>>97098337
But you just rephrased what I said. Exalted doesn't have a clear vision of what it's supposed to be, and devs keep adding details that bloat the setting in terms of scope and just sheer information. The setting needs to be focused and trimmed back to deliver a much more cohesive experience that most tables can actually use. I don't think we disagree, I just don't think you like how I said it.

File: Scarlet 3e.jpg (216 KB, 700x453)

216 KB JPG

>>97097470
>TQ: Are you keeping the Scarlet Empress in Hell in your EX3 Infernal games?
Nah, she's going to the Underworld and becoming The Scarlet Phoenix Astride The World.

>>97097726
I just run games, but using leprosy as a biological weapon through a deal with a disease god was probably the most evil thing my players have done.

>>97098110
Sure, they're people. They're the original people, perhaps the inventors of the concept of personhood, even.

>>97098513
Yozi are critters, not people. Primordials were just just fae with BBLs

>>97097948
The last thing this game needs is more splats. I was of the camp that Alchemicals were already too much
>>97098513
Yozi have always explicitly not been people. They're the color from outer space or Azathoth or an innumerable number of things that are absolutely not comparable to the human mind. The Ebon Dragon is the one closest to something resembling a sapient mind, but even his persona is more of a mockery of mortal existence.

>>97098518
>>97098536
That is complete bullshit unsupported by anything ever published. Yozis are obviously not human, but humanity is not a prerequisite of personhood, not on any kind of a universal, conceptual level. Yozis have distinct personalities, goals, drives and emotions, they're obviously sapient, in previous editions they could talk to you in plain Old Realm if they felt like it and in 3E they can still communicate in other ways, and their primary difference to humans is that they're vaster and more complex, not that they lack any of the qualities that make humans people.

>>97098668
The ability to speak does not make you intelligent. It's all just fair folk shenanigans and parlor tricks

>>97098674
I'm about 95% sure that you're baiting, but what are you bading the absolutely ridiculous idea of Yozis not being intelligent on?

>>97098689
Frieren, basically. Just because you can talk to them doesn't mean they're people

>>97098668
There are many indications that an octopus is highly intelligent, but it is not a person and never will be. So too are the Yozi and the Fair Folk. They are alien in mind and soul.

>>97097726
Turned another PC's son into a rott-slushy by simulcasting Death of Obsidian Butterflies with Flesh-Sloughing Wave (GM ruled Shape Sorcery/Necro can be flurried) on him and an entire battleship's crew.

Admittedly I didn't know at the time and the guy was part of an invading pirate force, sooo...

>>97098696
Except Freiren 100% fails at its own portrayal of Demons unless the mangaka is setting up a long-term twist of Freiren just being objectively wrong.

>>97098689
Dolphins are pretty intelligent but if you're calling one a person you're in for a world of disappointment. They don't think, feel, or act in the same way that we do. Any zoologist will tell you that just because an animal is intelligent does not mean it is a person. People are people.

>>97098696
You can't base your understanding of Exalted on a different, unrelated franchise. Or I guess you can, but it'd be dumb as fuck. Both the published material and writer statements on Yozis make it clear that they're complex, intelligent people with emotions recognizable to humans.

>>97098706
You can, of course, handle things however you want at your table. Actual canon take on Yozis is very different from yours, though.

>>97098734
Complex intelligent *beings

>>97098731
Person and human are synonymous on Earth, not conceptually, not on a fantasy world with other intelligent people.

>>97098734
The material regularly reinforces how utterly alien they are. Many of them have been elaborated on having deeping holes where normal thought would reside, or understanding the world in a way that is at odds with anything a sane human would do. Ebon Dragon is the closest to a person out of all of them, and he has a black pit where compassion would be even in the most repugnant person. He cannot feel regret or remorse for his actions, it's not possible for him to do so. He can only lie unless the truth would hurt you. These are not choices he makes any more than you have a choice to have a heart that pumps blood. And remember, he is the one closest to a mortal mind. Quite frankly, I think you've gotten way too caught up in trying to humanize something that never was. They aren't people, they're monsters that deserve to be locked up.

>>97098696
>Frieren, basically. Just because you can talk to them doesn't mean they're people
Frieren's demons are people. If you've missed that then you've missed the message, which is that they can be both people and fundamentally evil.

>>97098785
Again, understanding the world like a sane human would is not a prerequisite for personhood. All Yozis are persons. Every edition writes them as people. I'm pretty sure that no writer whio'd agree with your take has ever worked on official Yozi-related material. Your insistence on defining person as a human and nothing but a human is the issue here, not me trying to humanize anything. Yozis are big dudes with big thoughts who are mad about being imprisoned, who like music and dance and who can communicate with lesser beings in ways that are understandable to both parties. You can engage in gay semantic games about whether that's enough for them to count as people, but I'm not particularly interested in doing so. Either way, Yozis are intelligent, emotional, both sentient and sapient, capable of communication and intentional action, and primarily distinguished by humans by being bigger and more complicated.

Are you trying to get social justice for the eldritch lovecraftian titans that hate everything and everyone? Is that how deep the wank goes?
>>97098795
If you've been keeping up, no, they continuously restate that they aren't people because they fundamentally lack the ability to feel compassion.
>>97098803
They're actually less complicated. Animal comparisons are pretty apt.

>>97098785
Your definition of personhood is unreasonably humancentric.

>>97098809
>Are you trying to get social justice for the eldritch lovecraftian titans that hate everything and everyone? Is that how deep the wank goes?
Not even that anon, but you're just being a stubborn retard who assumes that personhood = humanization = worthy of sympathy. That's how this shit works.

>>97098810
Exalted is a humancentric setting. It is the age of the chosen, not the gods or the primordials. The greatest of humans are the ones who truly matter.

>>97098809
>If you've been keeping up, no, they continuously restate that they aren't people because they fundamentally lack the ability to feel compassion.
No, Frieren regularly dehumanizes demons, because demons aren't human. Frieren regularly highlights that they are people with personalities, goals, logic and so on, but that this should not stop you from annihilating them at your first opportunity, because personhood does not disqualify someone from execution.

>>97098818
>Exalted is a humancentric setting. It is the age of the chosen, not the gods or the primordials. The greatest of humans are the ones who truly matter.
That shouldn't matter to you when forming your own opinions, beyond that you should know that it biases you ahead of time. Exalted is a medium we use to tell stories and look in on ideas. Humans being the most pivotal (questionable, by the way) at the current time in the setting is a good reason to consider the opinions of the non-humans involved more thoroughly, because while their opinions might not matter to anybody else in the setting, they might matter to you, the player, and also to your character, and suddenly those non-humans might not be irrelevant at all.

>>97098803
You are right but you need to understand - a lot of people obsessed with 2e don't know anything about the lore or what the dev have written about stuff. Them calling Yozi Lovecraft gods makes this obvious - 2e devs have said constantly how they're not and were never meant to be. There are actual articles on this that they have never read but I bet you have.

The Yozi are evil, for sure. A vast being beyond imagining. They are however, also relatable. They understand our suffering, the same way a human can understand stepping on an ant kills it. They are the makers of the universe and things like love, hope, music, all that wouldn't exist without them. The truth of them and the universe does not drive you mad, it educates you. They are pathetic, they lost and now by their very natures focus on their defeat and hatred. These are incredibly human things. This word play with "personhood" is just so dumb and not smart.

Now - can the Yozi change without your help? No, almost certainly not, and they also don't really want your help. But refusing to better yourself doesn't remove personhood. I don't know what would.

Honestly, my biggest complaint with Yozi and Primordials is that they feel too basic and human. This whole "They're so alien!" never clicked with me. What the fuck is alien about being mad you're in super jail or that a bunch of ants took over your home? I mean the Primordials were obviously in the wrong but none of these things seem alien to me.

It could be that Yozi have a much harder time changing then Primordials do but it's not exactly impossible for them. Look at Gaia, she fucked off to space. Look at Auto, he became a neet. These are simple to understand things.

>>97098809
>hey're actually less complicated
Literally everything witten by Yozis disagrees with that. Like the word of GoD says: "The Yozis are creatures beyond human in their na-
ture. What a human has in their whole, the Yozis have in
their parts. Each of the shadows that crowd around the
Ebon Dragon has a rudimentary consciousness. Each gust
that trails behind Adorjan, the Silent Wind, has a small awareness of its own. What humans have achieved, the Yozis find trivial. Minds and souls and hearts are small to them. The essence of a Yozi has many parts, many souls — and each has a mind, a heart and souls of its own. Thus, the wind Adorjan has 20 souls, and the 18th of them is Jacint, the Prince Upon the Tower. This is the first step in the demon hierarchy. Such creatures as Jacint are demons of the Third Circle, each with their own will and whim, dependent upon but not puppets to their lords". That is not a description of beings simpler than humans. Or look at Jenna Moran's statements here http://exalted.xi.co.nz/wiki/Thus_Spake_Zaraborgstrom/UnderstandingYozis and here http://nobilis.me/quotes:primordial-grown-ups.

Are you, yourself, at some point going to actually point to some bit of Exalted lore or at least some writer statement as your basis for considering Yozis more similar to animals than to people?

>>97098809
>Are you trying to get social justice for the eldritch lovecraftian titans that hate everything and everyone? Is that how deep the wank goes?
The fuck are you on about here? There's not a single post in this thread talking about Yozi morality or the way they should be treated one way or another. Argue with people posting ITT, not with the voices in your head.

>>97098818
That is completely and fairly obviously and straightforwardly irrelevant to how the concept of personhood is or should be defined.

>>97098845
In the context of exalted? Yes I would say it being a human centric setting would definitely allow us to place primacy of humanity as a defining personhood.

>>97098852
Okay now you're just baiting.

>>97098852
Nah, it doesn't have any impact of the philosophical value, logical validity, internal coherence etc. of that definition.

>>97098854
I'm pretty sure they actually believe it. That doesn't make anything less pathetic.

>>97098832
>The Yozi are evil, for sure.
Some of them are alright.

>A vast being beyond imagining.
Definitely not.

>Now - can the Yozi change without your help? No, almost certainly not, and they also don't really want your help.
They can, actually, they just have no reason to become more human-like or change their values or mythos to your preference. Even in 2e it's entirely possible for them to develop new charms themselves, to discard and develop new Intimacies and demons, etcetera and so forth. It's just... why would they do that to advantage you? No other human would go out of their way to alter their beliefs and neuroses to your advantage unless there was something going on between you or something forcing them to do it.

>This whole "They're so alien!" never clicked with me.
Me either, and to be honest I think the whole alien thing is mostly a thing of alien priorities and inhuman advantages/disadvantages rather than some fundamental difference. Gods and elementals are in pretty much exactly the same bandwagon, but all the alien accusations get thrown into Malfeas for some reason.

>>97098854
No, I genuinely feel that. There's no reason why I should ever consider the primordials to be people, especially considering how fucked up they are. They are the worst of monsters, defeated in a time long past that gnaw and howl fruitlessly in their cages as proof of the victory of the exalted. That is the purpose they serve in the setting.

>>97098862
It would be pretty weird if Yozis were fundamentally alien, too. They were formerly Primordials, and Primordials made Creation. They're not outsiders, they're the origin.

>>97098864
Personhood is not a moral statement, anon. Or if it is, it's one only in the sense that only a person can be considered a moral actor that can be judged as good or evil.

>>97098830
>No, Frieren regularly dehumanizes demons, because demons aren't human. Frieren regularly highlights that they are people with personalities, goals, logic and so on, but that this should not stop you from annihilating them at your first opportunity, because personhood does not disqualify someone from execution.
You don't actually read it. The series doesn't get deep into it, it's 100% because they don't really feel love or compassion. That's why they'll always be monsters in that setting, no matter what they say or think. It ain't rocket science here, Frieren is just fucking Dragon Quest, it's 100% about love

>>97098862
Hm. I'm not sure what Yozi I'd say wasn't evil in the "This thing is just harmful to me by it's nature" but eh.

With being vast beyond imagining. It's a being with millions/billions of parts. As far as I can guess knowing them as a whole, the same way you can know a single person just isn't possible. There is always going to be "more". At least, physically. I don't mean this in a lovecraft way, just in a "It's a huge fucking number" sort of way. In a "alien" way there is nothing hard to imagine about someones who love to dance and enjoy music and hate being in superjail and are pissed that ants took over their home. Oramus is the exception here - He should be alien and impossible. That's what I think at least.

For the changing, it IS canon that one of the reasons they made the infernals was so they could learn charms that benefit them. It's even said in the books (an inkmonkey one) that they don't have a choice when it comes to learning the charms. This was, IIRC, mentioned to be intentional. So yeah I guess I'm wrong about that. I suppose I meant it in a "They're not going to change into something less hostile to you/creation without someone stepping in."

Primordials are a person of persons I guess you could say. If you wanted to have fun with stuff like that.

>>97098864
nta but it would not be unreasonable for them to be doing exactly the same thing if they were humans in the same circumstances, so why would the Yozi not be people while humans doing the same thing would be?

>>97098878
>You don't actually read it. The series doesn't get deep into it, it's 100% because they don't really feel love or compassion. That's why they'll always be monsters in that setting, no matter what they say or think. It ain't rocket science here, Frieren is just fucking Dragon Quest, it's 100% about love
A person can be a monster, and a monster can be a person. You're in a board for a White Wolf game so I'm surprised you haven't already come to this conclusion. Yes, the demons in Frieren don't feel love or compassion or a smattering of other things, yes, they're evil monsters, and yes, they should be executed on the spot, but they are also people. Personhood doesn't change any of the other stuff.

>>97098869
ngl, with how stubborn that anon is getting it feels like some kind of personal issue about not wanting to ever acknowledge "ontologically evil" beings as having personhood because it's somehow an offense against his personal sense of morality.

Kind of like some D&Dfags get fucking feral over playable goblins and orcs.

>>97098886
I'm sorry but you cannot convince me that a creature unable to feel love and compassion is a creature that can be labeled as a person. Hell, we remove that privilege from humans who don't. That's the point of the series as well, you cannot treat them as people because they will not treat you as people.

>>97098882
>Hm. I'm not sure what Yozi I'd say wasn't evil in the "This thing is just harmful to me by it's nature" but eh.
Eh, I wouldn't consider 'this is harmful to me by it's nature' to be a qualifier for evil in the first place - like, I don't consider pain receptors or taxes fundamentally evil like I would think Cecelyne is. Isidoros, Szoreny, and Qaf are the Yozi I'd generally consider pretty alright.

>It's a being with millions/billions of parts.
So are you, anon. It's not like they're constantly aware of all of their subsouls, and first circle demons aren't even part of the Yozi in any way unless they're like fused into a Yozi's walls or something, they're just spawns. They consider their direct subsouls opinions in the same way you consider the opinions of your stomach or dick, not as a constant committee meeting happening at the speed of light in the back of their head.

>Oramus is the exception here - He should be alien and impossible. That's what I think at least.
Well, yes. And Sacheverell, in the other way that he probably could be understood, but won't be because he's asleep, and maaaaaybe Adorjan in the specifics as opposed to the broad sweeps, because she's actually crazy and her crazy changes by the minute.

>>97098898
>Hell, we remove that privilege from humans who don't.
No, we don't. We call such humans bad people, we don't deny that they're people.

>>97098886
>You're in a board for a White Wolf game so I'm surprised you haven't already come to this conclusion.
I'm going to step in and say that I played a lot of vampire and they were pretty quick to dismiss your personhood. That's part of the personal horror; you ain't that guy who got his blood sucked anymore. You're some *thing* that pretends to be him pretty well. You might think you're him, but the truly terrible thing is eventually you'll forget what being you is really like and you'll just be the monster. Just adding my two cents on the white wolf thing.

>>97098898
>I'm sorry but you cannot convince me that a creature unable to feel love and compassion is a creature that can be labeled as a person.
Because you're a retard who attaches false conditions to personhood. Literally only thing that defines personhood is a sense of identity. If you can think that you exist, identify you exist, and reason that you are someone with a definitive continuous presence, then you are a person by definition. Everything else is extraneous, including love/compassion/shit we identify as "human".

>Hell, we remove that privilege from humans who don't.
We remove that privilege from literally anyone when convenient, that's the concept unpersoning/demonization. But personhood is individual and independent from any extraneous factors like societal standards as long as you have an awareness of self, which the Yozi absolutely do.

All of that is also completely independent of whether Yozi or Freiren Demons are evil/deserve to be killed.

>>97098898
>I'm sorry but you cannot convince me that a creature unable to feel love and compassion is a creature that can be labeled as a person.
>Hell, we remove that privilege from humans who don't.
We don't. At least, in first world countries, we continue considering people people regardless of their mental illnesses. Certainly it is common for people to dehumanize and attempt to deperson or unperson people they hate or with traits they think they wouldn't want to live in the same world as, but this is generally considered not a good person thing to be doing.

I hate to make this a race thing, but that would be one reason people have been historically depersoned...

>>97098913
>I'm going to step in and say that I played a lot of vampire and they were pretty quick to dismiss your personhood. That's part of the personal horror; you ain't that guy who got his blood sucked anymore. You're some *thing* that pretends to be him pretty well. You might think you're him, but the truly terrible thing is eventually you'll forget what being you is really like and you'll just be the monster. Just adding my two cents on the white wolf thing.
That's a dismissal of humanity rather than personhood, and though there is a bit of unpersoning in there too that's more of a way vampires psych themselves out rather than an actual fact of the matter.

>>97098916
A lot of higher order animals have a continuous sense of self. They even have emotions and individual quirks and are capable of some level of reasoning and communication that can be quite complex. They're still not people.

>>97098913
I don't know what this means because Vampires are clearly who they were. They even have a stat called humanity to keep track of how monstrous you've been. You're meant to keep that number up and it going too low is a "lose" condition in that game.

>>97098929
Yes Anon, animals are more complex then many people think they are. This stuff gets tricky, its why many people are vegetarians.

I mean I say tricky but this is high school level philosophy.

>>97098924
No, there was definitely a lot of dismissal of personhood. Played it for years, through many editions. The Beast is not merely analogy.
>>97098932
They're actually not. Each edition approached it a little different, but your sense of self just sort of erodes over time as monster part of you just displaces who you were. It's been described as like the dead soul, or like the fog of ages, but the idea is whether by learned experience or the curse, you bleed (heh) off everything not related to feeding and securing your ability to feed. The ST is meant to facilitate this as well, by intentionally slamming your humanity down and doing things to mess with your identity like making you do awful stuff unawares (VtM did not respect player autonomy much).

>>97098948
You clearly don't know anything about World of Darkness lore, the same way you clearly don't know anything about Exalted lore. Like really.

>intentionally slamming your humanity down and doing things to mess with your identity like making you do awful stuff unawares

I am very sorry you had to play these terrible, terrible games.

>>97098956
Nah bro you can't lecture me on this one. Got a cabinet full of books, played through the late 90s into the 2010s. That is the intent of the game, it doesn't respect you, STs are largely encouraged to be very mean in order to create drama, and you're definitely not meant to be getting any sort of essential acknowledgment. You're the baddie, and you're meant to enjoy that because it was being edgy as fuck. I spoke some people played it as goth superheroes but the fluff of the books was very clear about your lost dimensions.

>>97098948
>doing things to mess with your identity like making you do awful stuff unawares
That sounds more in line with Wraith than Vampire.

>>97098956
If the ST isn't doing that to you in vampire then you're getting babied. He's supposed to fuck with you if you're trying to be too careful, and besides the downward spiral is the best part.

>>97098936
Cows aren't people. They're delicious

>>97098981
Everything you just said makes me feel sorry for you and reinforces how pathetic you are. You've been involved in this franchise for that long and you literally know nothing about it. That's very sad and I honestly feel sorry for you. Even more sorry because I am very confident that you've been shunned by the community you're obsessed with.

>some people played it as goth superheroes

Oh yes, people played it like that. Vampires biggest draw though was playing hot goth vampires. The books even have options for the end of a vampires story where if their humanity is high enough and through ST-fiat they don't even need to drink blood anymore. It's more something to end the story on, but still.

>That is the intent of the game, it doesn't respect you,

It honestly feels like your trying to make yourself seem as pathetic as possible. What the fuck does "the game doesn't respect you" even mean from a non-retard perspective? You yourself said you know people play "goth superheroes".

There is a Hunter the Parenting character you sound like, a guy named Door. You sound a lot like him but in real life. This is not a good thing, it's just cringe. Which is funny because Door in the show is just wonderful.

A better way to put this is that some people took larping as Hunters and Mages so hard that they started to think it's true for the setting as a whole. I wholly expect this guy to use the term blank bodies unironically.

Play vampires. They are cool as fuck.

>>97099030
Dude, I don't know who you think you are or where you get off trying to tell me how the game was played when you are clearly someone who came in much later. Fact of the matter is that the turbo edge bleakness has the same appeal that it does for like the guys who enjoy 40k. This condescending attitude you have about how the game was actually played back in and how much fun we had is stupid. Frankly, your ideas are the one that sound lame and without the hint of the edge that defined white wolf, so don't say you feel sorry for me. I would feel sorry for anybody who has to play in your game.

Fuck me that the foul mouthed counter culture anti politeness edgelord publisher has come to people looking aghast about vampires being less than people. Got to be worried we'll offend the fucking ghouls, I guess. God damn sometimes I want to go back to the '90s. Peace y'all, I can't take this shit for at least another 8 hours.

>>97099065
Nothing you said makes me think you're less pathetic. I'm just glad you're no longer a part of the community anyone has to worry about.

That comment about turbo edge bleakness does say a lot about you. Nothing good, but still. At least you understand that people did play what amounted to goth superheroes back in the day. I don't think anyone has said that World of Darkness isn't dark. Or that vampires can't be monstrous. I just think this bit

>That is the intent of the game, it doesn't respect you,

Objectively makes you a very sad person and I am so sorry you had to deal with that. I don't know what kinds of bad people you played games with but that is something I have never had to deal with, even when playing a bad guy in world of darkness. We just had complications and morally complex moments, like you're supposed to have.

For anyone else reading, playing a good vampire in world of darkness is both possible and part of the game. There is a stat for it. It's called Humanity. If for whatever reason you think drinking blood is lame there is a way to end the campaign with your character not having to do that, but being a vampire and not drinking blood is boring. Doesn't really matter at the end of the game though. You can also have sad endings or endings where you fall to the Beast. The game has options. Both oWoD and nWoD.

To talk a bit more about the World of Darkness, there are tons and tons of books from multiple authors with elements that contradict themselves all the time. Point is, there is a ton of material there to work with. This applies to oWoD more then nWoD but it's apparent in both of them. It's a neat setting though.

I still think it's funny how Ravnos just absolutely fucked over mages and how the Tremere did much the same. Probably some of the best bits of lore in the game.

There's too much World of Darkness talk in this Exalted thread. A random Exalted-related question: does anyone know just what the fuck Lookshy's citizen's assemblies are supposed to do? Lookshy's writeups in all editions talk about them and about citizens having a right to speak on them while helots can attend but not speak. I don't know what their actual role is in a society where a centralized military bureaucracy runs the show, though. My impression is that Spartan influence shows here as a Greek polis kibd of institution that's been thrown in without really considering the fact that Lookshy's fundamentally more different from than similar to any Greek polis, but maybe I've just missed some bit of writing that makes it all fit together.

>>97099173
Maybe it's like the House of Lords in Britain. No actual power, but given due regard when deciding law. There to be a sort of moderating voice to those running the show, offering advice from a civilian perspective that the Gens night not consider

>>97099181
Hm, might be. That'd probably be the simplest explanation that fits Lookshy's overall system.

>>97099173
>does anyone know just what the fuck Lookshy's citizen's assemblies are supposed to do?
It's a Roman thing, which Lookshy also takes characteristics from. Citizens showed up and do direct democracy via voting on legislature and magistrates IRL. Presumably it's similar.

>>97099173
Continuing >>97099190 having double checked some books, Outcaste and Scavenger Sons don't mention citizen's assemblies directly, but they do say:

>Elected councils from the city's various districts have their sway over district-level affairs, but the ultimate authority lies with the General Staff-appointed base officer, and her decisions are beyond appeal.
Scavenger Sons pg75, where the elected councils are probably elected by an assembly of the local citizenry Rome-style.

>Citizens are free — they can own property and run independent businesses, may speak at city councils run by the Base Liaison Office and, once they have discharged their military obligations, may even leave Lookshy if they choose.
Outcaste g19, the key quote being that they may speak at city councils, which are probably the elected district councils mentioned in Scavenger Sons in actuality, but this would be another right of citizens to assemble and have their voices heard at some higher level.

>>97099112
NTA but your shit does sound really sanitized and tame so you really have no right to be criticizing anybody for playing the game in one of its valid configurations. You can probably back off the self-righteousness redditor bit about four or five notches too, since you haven't produced an interesting idea this entire thread.

>>97099247
You can complain about the lore of WoD if you want to. I'm literally just explaining what it really is. It's not my fault that I know more about the setting then you do.

>>97099306
You're swinging at ghosts mate. I'm calling a self-righteous asshole as I see it, especially invoking the community on an Italian macaroni art forum, like we all aren't the community. You're calling a dude pathetic for playing a game in a way that is perfectly valid for that game while jacking off your sophomoric philosophy about personhood

>>97099190
That would've been my assumption, but it's just that direct democracy doesn't seem otherwise very Lookshyan

>>97099206
Hm, I remembered the latter part you quoted, but not the first one saying that citizen councils have some sway over district-level matters. I guess a degree of direct democracy actually might fit Lookshy when the scope and limits of democratic decision-making are strictly and clearly defined.

>>97099316
No, you're just incredibly stupid.Anyways, playing WoD as an incredibly grim game with an ST that does his best to get across the feeling of

">That is the intent of the game, it doesn't respect you,"

Is objectively wrong. It's not a valid way to play the game, but nothing is stopping you from doing so. You can have dark games that don't do that. I'm not even sure where the "game doesn't respect you" even comes from.

Also, you're literally on my side. His is one way to play, there are plenty of others that are valid as well. So thank you, you might be a retard but at least you aren't super retarded.

>>97099316
>>97099338
Please, fuck off to /WoDg/ if you'd rather talk about WoD than Exalted.

Can an Infernal with the Inner World charms who has used them to create a world with a technological theme declare with an Introduce a Fact roll that their Inner World works like Autochthon does, and people inside it can craft First Age Artifice with Craft (Artifacts) and exotic materials their Inner World provides?

>>97099345
You're right, sorry, no more talking about WoD. It's exhausting for me to be right about everything anyways so I do need a bit of a break.

What ideas do you all have for when an Infernal dies and he has a soul world? For both 2e and 3e. I can't seem to find any info on this and honestly I don't think there is. Cool ideas would also be welcome.

>>97099338
See, there is that Reddit style completely unwarranted self-righteousness again. All you're doing is calling other people retarded while offering the most bland, uninspired takes of the century as if you're some kind of authority. I'm telling you to shut up with judging other people for actually having a stance when your shit makes vanilla sound like a flavor explosion. Post some shit that's actually interesting, otherwise you're just a fag who is hating on people for actually having fun and having their own opinions on the game.
>>97099345
I kind of want this guy to fuck off in general. If this is the same guy who has been talking about the community for the past couple weeks, he adds nothing to the threads. No good insights, no good story times, no good Homebrew. Just picking the dumbest fights and making people not want to post in a thread that already barely has anybody posting it.

>>97099364
You are talking about yourself, you very pathetic and sad person.

>>97099374
Shut the fuck up or post something actually cool that you made.

>>97098696

Frieren Demons are people who evolved from solo predators, their moral system is one of social rules of respect for a fellow predator. Their friendship, and annoyance/upset at the death of a comrade is that of a sociopath who lost a favoured useful belonging.

We see moral and immoral demons if you pay enough attention, just within demon moral standards. We also see Frieren causing outrage when she breaches one of the most important rules of demon morality: Show us how strong you are, that we may show you the appropriate level of respect. They're outright disgusted at her for breaking this rule.

>>97099387
Again, talking about yourself. You are more then welcome to do what you're asking of me, but you can't, and even if you did I'm pretty sure it would suck. I know you want the last word. It's very cute.

I am trying to get ideas on what happens to an Infernals soul world when they die. You could make yourself useful there. I don't think you can, but you could try. It'd also be nice if I could get people to post more of that neat 1e art. That's always nice to see.

>>97099393
Shut the fuck up, then. You don't have anything useful or interesting to say, as usual. Just more acting high and mighty with nothing to show.

>>97099406
You are once again talking about yourself. That's not healthy and I worry for you.

Ironically it'd be pretty easy to explain compassion to one of the smarter frieren demons if you just explained evolutionary psychology to them instead of trying to teach them to feel it, which they can't do. They probably have some emotional nuances we don't get either, though that would be harder to get into because the author doesn't have that mindset either.

Of course a demon who understood the evolutionary psychology of compassion would have completed their understanding quest and become a more dangerous hunter, so maybe it's for the best dipshits just try to explain a feeling in feeling terms to guys who can't feel it.

>>97099412
You're not interesting, and you never post any good original content. My challenge to you was for you to prove that you're half the hot shit you act like you are. You can post whatever smarmy response you want; you're still a puffed-up dullard until you do, unable to stop the yap.

>>97099360
Soul world manifesting somewhere in Malfeas as a new festure of the city would be one idea, though not a very interesting ome. The world being sealed off from outside world as its own pocket plane but also starting to decay, leaving its possible inhabitants scrambling to find a way to break out and stabilize their world, would offer more of a plot hook. The world meeging with the Infernal's hungry ghost and becoming an angry, undead world-behemoth would be cool, but I don't like it that much as something that'd happen for every dead Infernal. I think the world manifesting somewhere and being taken over by the hungry ghost might be my go to idea.

>>97099417
They understand intellectually what it is. However their nature is simply to view it as a weakness to exploit in their prey. The series is not really up for a debate about this aspect of what makes a person. For them, a heart that can feel love is an absolute requirement. It's strange to argue against it when it quite clearly lays out its own terms.

>>97099421
You are once again talking about yourself. This is an Exalted thread, you should be talking about Exalted.

>>97099424
I've seen some ideas like this. It's a hard question because I like it but none of it feels "perfect". The soul world just vanishing on an infernals death would easily be the lamest choice.

The Infernal soul realm being inside Malfeas is really interesting. But then, well, are your demons also trapped in Hell? Are they subject to the surrender oaths? It feels like yes but I don't know if that's the best way to do. When your infernal dies is it just part of Hell now? Your old demons and such included?

The soul world being separate and if the infernal dies it starts to decay is an option, but what kind of RP opportunities does that open up. It would make the infernal dying all the more tragic.

You can also have it fall to the underworld along with all your demons. But then they wouldn't be tied to any neverborn, seeing as how the Exaltation is fine and the next user can make his own world.

I think I like the second option the most - with the death of the Infernal expanding hell. When it first happens hell is super confused but also happy, in a way only hell could be.

>>97099360
It probably dies. All that junk getting recycled just like the rest of your soul bits.

>>97099448
I can see that and it's oddly funny to imagine the death of the infernal bringing about the annihilation of countless beings. It fits but might be too grim/basic.

I don't think either edition was ever too clear on this stuff lol.

>>97099447
They most likely disappear. Unlike the Yozi, Infernal Exalted are still finite beings and their souls go through the cycle of cleansing and eventual rebirth on death like any other. Anything born of their soul would go through the same process, possibly just being treated as more memories/karma to wash away.

>>97099360
>>97092461 >

>>97099458
Infernal Exaltations return to Malfeas and flow through the channels in his world-body between Exaltations. I think the Inner World and sub-souls of a dead Infernal would probably get scraped off inside the Demon City and you'd wind up with random bits of them scattered all over the place.

>>97099488
Most likely not just because of the weird interactions. It's simpler to just have them vanish along with the soul

I'd just get rid of it too. Sounds like a hassle

>>97099555
Pussy but also LAZY. Shameful.

>>97099600
ngl I'm not super invested in the infernals stuff. Always been a solar main

>>97097948
My theory is that they are a vestige from the time that they were the Abyssal exalted.

>>97097948
Maybe in a pre-exigent world, but now we are drowning in cringe donut steal exalted the setting way too diluted already.

I know we're all excited about the draft, but it's really just convinced me I need to get off my ass and finally make a version of Exalted I really like. At least edit the setting to cut out the cringe and inconsistencies, kill some sacred cows, that sort of thing. I know there's too many hacks already, but none of them quite do it for me.

>>97099782

What sacred cows and cringe?

>>97099782
Seems to be the conclusion everyone who makes Exalted homebrew comes to, sooner or later.

>>97099447
>But then, well, are your demons also trapped in Hell? Are they subject to the surrender oaths?
Considering they can't be bound by sorcery, the answer seems to be no. Infernals in general are just kind of a middle finger to the Surrender Oaths consider, you know, Infernals can in fact hurt people trying to invoke them.

>>97099883
Sacred Cows:
>Elders
>Number of Exalted in general
>The Great Curse and Jade Prison storylines
>SMA
>The standard Attributes and Abilities
>How Castes work
>Solaroids

Cringe:
>Mostly the New Exalt types

I really wanna scour the last bits of the heavy-handed backstory and metaplot. I personally feel there's no need for a Great Curse (at least not how it is) and the Jade Prison story beat was always uninspiring and uncool. I also wanna further mystify parts of the Exalted, like how many there are and the exact mechanics of reincarnation. The concept of Exalted Elders is just getting booted. They'll be old Exalts, sure, but not in another tier of power. I wanna recombine the attributes and abilities in a way that's not quite so rigid so characters feel more natural to build and it's harder to pigeon hole yourself (this extends to Castes). I think SMA conceptually causes more problems than it's worth and it's probably getting removed entirely. Finally, I personally don't gel much with the Solaroid concept. I'd rather just make Abyssals and Infernals wholly the creation of their dark sires at some terrible cost to those creatures. Oh, and fuck the new exalts. Not an exhaustive list

>>97100042
I was with you on a few things (mainly attributes, abilities and castes) but overall I'm glad you're not in charge of the line because you seem to want Exalted to be less cool.

>>97100097
I feel like it would be cooler this way. There's a lot of stuff I feel is just too up it's own ass that needs to move aside for things that are more bombastic and dynamic. There are no elder tiers of power because everyone is that powerful. There's no SMA because all magical martial arts can do really cool shit. There's less known things you can count on and calculate and more room to be surprised by the unknown.

>>97099447
>I think I like the second option the most - with the death of the Infernal expanding hell
That's the option I'd go with, if it was ever relevant in a game I run. I think I'd have all the soul worlds of dead Infernals manifest in the same part of Malfeas, maybe partially intertwined with each other, with a portion of Malfeas becoming in time a monument and mausoleum for the dead Infernals. That just seems kind of cool to me. Maybe have it happen underneath or around the Conventicle Malfeasant, because why not, it seems appropriate.

>>97099448
>>97099458
That's an answer that makes sense, but it's not the most interesting answer and therefore isn't one I'd go with.

>>97100042
What would you do instead of the Jade Prison? I assume you'd still want the Solars to have been gone for a good long while, because otherwise you'd be pretty much looking at a complete rewrite of the setting. I fully agree with you on Elders, Castes and the Great Curse, and somewhat agree on SMAs and Attributes and Abilities.

>>97100114
>I feel like it would be cooler this way.
I strongly disagree if you think that, say, Ivory Pestle Style is as cool as Pristine Arrangement. And Pristine Arrangement is one of the more mundane SMAs. Likewise if you're who I think you are you want Abyssals and Infernals to be explicitly weaker than Solars which is fucking gay and cringe. I'm not actually sure they have to be corrupted Solar Exaltations to match them, but it's a hard sell when Solar Exaltations are supposed to be the premier Primordial-slayers.

I am indifferent to Elders overall but I think it's a defeatist attitude to eliminate instead of retool them. Likewise while I'm not overly attached to the Jade Prison I don't see any alternative explanation being overmuch more interesting, and the number of Exalted literally does not affect anything. Great Curse-keep it, but don't give it any kind of mechanical representation except maybe as an encouragement to stunt. The manifestation of the Great Curse is bouts of extreme hubris and spontaneous activity-in short, the status of being a player character.

>>97100120
I'd go with a new kind of Great Curse. Not necessarily one that affects the behavior of the Exalted, but a magical trap upon the Sun's Blessing which only took effect when the Solars suffered the same fate as the Primordials. When the Solars were betrayed, their spark was flung through time, far into the future of Creation. Denied their greatest of champions, the Primordials believed that surely Creation would have fallen by the time the Solar Exalted could be reborn. They are ALMOST right.

>>97100143
I'm not saying to get rid of the styles, just to get rid of a separate special tier of Martial Arts that really only existed to buff Sidereals. The styles would be retooled to something more Celestial level. Similarly, Elders might be older and wiser, but they don't have an additional tier of enlightenment that lets them play a different game. They should be strong. Well, maybe, if they've been keeping up with their training. Some definitely have not. But what they can do is fundamentally the same as what PCs in the E1-5 range. They are definitely more entrenched, though, and would have advantages that befit their long lives.
I personally don't see a need to have a specific call out to the Great Curse in terms of behavior. The Exalted are fundamentally human, in both its best and worst aspects. There's absolutely no need for a magical curse to undo an age. There will be Solars who abuse their power, Dragonblooded who covet the throne, and Sidereals who believe themselves to be in the right all without that. In fact, it rather feels more like a lie one of them might try to pass off to excuse themselves.

>>97100155
Samurai Jack Solars are pretty cool conceptually

>>97100155
>>97100234
Samurai Jack Solars are alright, but I don't personally see much advantage in that over just keeping the Jade Prison.

>>97100251
It's a lot simpler to explain and it doesn't depend on some secret event to break the box that ties into a pretty lame metaplot. In general, I'm also not fond of the idea of being able to box Exaltation at all really. Takes a lot of the magical specialness out of it to me, so instead I just have the blessing be temporarily removed from the timeline with a one time death curse of the fallen Primordials. But really, I don't need an "advantage" to do something different especially when the original is really boring.

>>97100143
The great curse is the gayest, cringest shit in the game next to your favorite Exalt type

>>97098785
>Ebon Dragon is the closest to a person out of all of them, and he has a black pit where compassion would be even in the most repugnant person. He cannot feel regret or remorse for his actions, it's not possible for him to do so. He can only lie unless the truth would hurt you.
This is just a pathological lia psychopath

>>97100464
The great curse only exists to railroad players into being drama queens, which is ironic considering the whole "pulp revival" spiel.

>>97100541
I feel like that's underselling how evil he is desu.
>>97100553
Well yeah. I think it's totally unnecessary

>>97100464
Solars are the gayest, cringest shit in the game?

>>97099435

If they think it's a weakness they don't understand it intellectually to the level evolutionary psychology would demonstrate. That holds the *why* to basic compassion, cooperation and morality. The pragmatism of the whole thing.

You can teach IRL sociopaths the value of morality with that angle.

And no Frieren doesn't go "demons aren't people" she goes "Interacting socially with demons is dangerous, just kill them."

>>97100595
Yes, you basic bitch. I bet you play human fighters and only have vanilla ice cream in your freezer.

>>97100613
Don't get into this middle school level thinking. It's a fantasy series with demons being very clear sinister beings which are and should be treated no different than a highly dangerous slime. You can't reason with or reeducate them. They're just magically evil and wrong, and that's ok because the series is not about them. It's about old elf learning how to value her time

>>97100590
>I feel like that's underselling how evil he is desu
I saw too many cartel videos to know that humans can do a lot of fucked up things, guilt free.

Or just the current Sudan civil war, where we can see massacres from space.

>>97100635

Bro the series deep dives into demons interacting with society multiple times.

Do you even Macht?

>>97100652
But they don't matter. They're always wrong and it's about the actual protagonists. That's how it is every single time.

>>97100613
It's another nigger that watched that shitty video essay.
Take it to >>>/a/

>>97100677

The stupid video essay argued that they should be treated like everyone else, and that they did have empathy dumbass.

This argument is about whether they're people, which only takes basic observation skills.

>>97100651
lol, lmao. Sure, okay, but he's worse. Just imagine all of those things but even worse and you might be close.
.

>>97100752
Not one of my socially acceptable fantasy races? Not people. It's that shrimple. Don't like it? Don't get into dumbass arguments about fictional shit by putting your real ass feelings on the line.

>>97100753
>lol, lmao. Sure, okay, but he's worse. Just imagine all of those things but even worse and you might be close.
Depends on the edition, though.

>it's "Saturday morning cartoon villain Ebby" bullshit rearing its ugly head again
So tiresome.

>>97100785
It's the best version of him. Totally without a single positive quality. Just absolutely the worst thing imaginable. That's fun as fuck.

>>97100799
>That's fun as fuck.
If you're a retard with zero imagination maybe.

>>97097470
What do you think of the latest draft PDF?

>>97100804
Wow, sir, ya got me. But I'm still right.

>>97100799

Almost agree.

"has a certain fondness for doomed people" is a fun touch, he might help you out a little in your quest to meet your doom, but he'll be pissed if you avoid your fate in the process.

And of course, you gotta work out how he factored into Theion's court back in the day, what traits he has whereby the other primordials tolerate him.

>>97100808
>I'm still right.
On opposite day maybe.

>>97100812
I don't care about that ancient past. I'm a man of the now and the very near future where he's the most evil thing in the universe but he's fortunately locked up in gay baby jail while the big boys play.
>>97100817
Stunning comeback

>>97100799
Nah, that's old and busted, something seen a million times.

>>97100838
The classics are worth doing.

>>97100871
Sometimes, to an extent and depending on the classic, sure. Exalted doesn't really benefit in any way from the Ebon Dragon being the worst thing ever by his very nature rather than a doom-looving creep desperately scheming to get out of his prison, though.

>>97100785
Ironically enough, this time it is 3efags defending it.

>>97100899
Says you, it benefits me by having a really awesome shadow dragon that is the worst thing ever who torments and lies and betrays anything and everything that comes into Hell. He's a wonderful setpiece to that little vista by representing the event horizon of amorality (antimorality?) that the PCs stare into and overcome. I don't care about a doom loving creep and his pointless schemes. I want Dragon Jonkler ruining everything, even for himself, because he thinks that's great fun. Ultimately, he's a set piece so I don't need or want him to have that kind of spotlight. I'd put that on a rival Exalt or something instead.

>>97100971
>amorality (antimorality?)
Immorality.

Isidoros is the most amoral of the yozi.

>>97101019
I forget that guy exists half the time, but yeah. Ebon Dragon. Just the worst, but like I said, he doesn't need to be anything more than that. He's a setting element more than anything else now. An environmental hazard. The real important characters are the Exalted.

>>97099354
Probably needs some groundwork first

>>97100143
Elders have always been a problem and SMA was just handing broken powers to Siddies because the devs were big fat fags. I also say Abyssals and Infernals should be weaker than Solars purely out of spite for their fans giving us years of whinging and being absolute dipshits anywhere the game is talked about.

>>97100785
It's fun. Sometimes I feel like you guys actually want to go play Nobilis with the Yozi or something with the way you're so particular over them

>>97101949
They, and the Incarna, are the most tangible characters.

It is like 1e!Lunars said about Luna, the moon, being present in every culture of Creation.

>>97101440
I mean an Inner World like the Grid from Tron or the Clockwork Paradise of Mechanus from Exalted. Something fantastical but very technologically-oriented.

Probably also with facts like "essence circuitry naturally grows over unattended objects" to give you a ready supply of the raw materials you'd normally need to spend a Sorcerous Working on in Creation, Demesnes with properties ajd Hearthstones useful for crafting in their raw state (or which might be capped by Factory-Cathedrals), minor craft-spirits (of the sort that might be created with a Terrestrial-scale Sorcerous Working) to act as assistants, pools of mutagenic Essence that can be used for tempering artifacts, etc.

File: No No YES.gif (1.79 MB, 285x195)

1.79 MB GIF

>tfw reading Verdant Emptiness Endowment

>>97099354
Just ignore the rules, like the devs do.
They only exist because realmfags hated Autochthonians having an advantage over them because of their superior magic/technology.

>>97102370
I've no problem with you getting there, but I'd want some groundwork such as other facts that "my bitches make artifacts like gravy" builds on. Your plan of stunts, facts and workings is probably acceptable, though you may want the WST-equivalents if you want to have the materials to make the artifacts

>>97101714
This is normally the part where I’d join in on the endless unceasing /exg/ nigga moments, but so far I’m getting literally everything I could have reasonably hoped for and a little extra from the Infernals drafts and you’re never making your own homebrew so after all this time.

Lmao, got mine.

>>97099354
I genuinely don’t see a reason why not. Worst to worst, do it like 3e core rules for making stuff from the Wyld and create it in gradients, introduce facts that lay the groundwork then introduce MORE facts.

>>97102385
This was my reaction to finding the Sacheverrell Charms in Lore and the Isidoros Charms in Athletics. After how long they cockteased some of the less seen Yozis it’s nice to see how strong they look in play.

Even if some of the Charms remind me 3e has this autistic fixation on making Legendary Size be this grand aspirational thing that tangibly affects the power of Charms despite simultaneously just being a size abstraction for T-rexes and things that are bigger than T-rexes but not mountain-sized. You have Legendary Size. Then you have beyond-Legendary Size, which foes of a specific and awkwardly defined bigness achieve and which Abyssals can give their horses. And finally, with Universe-Collapsing Juggernaut Beast you are just arbitrarily larger than everything and everyone on a subjective, Perfection Beyond Imagining-style comparative basis which gives the Infernals a power even Solars lack: Completely ignoring the Legendary Size rule (and implicitly, the larger-than-Legendary Size rule given those seem to be treated as multiple Legendary Size targets) as opposed to countering it with a specific mode of attack as per Dragon Coil Technique, and just backhanding Mount Mostoth like an uppity ho.

Also that Charm really needs some guidance on what happens when 2 Infernals use it against each other. Who gets to be THE BIGGEST? Who?!

I don't exactly mind the Ebon Dragon in 2e being Satan. It was a choice but it's not exactly hard to understand. Plus, all things considered, it's nice that they finally finished off that meta-plot that they were working on since 1e exalted.

I also don't really mind that 1e and 3e had him being something else instead of just "The Devil" and "Hellfire eternal punishment". The focus on just loving the shit out of doomed things while being a toxic element yet also bringing the gift of darkness is neat. The lack of whole books dedicated to him also adds to that air of mystery.

>>97101019
I would say either Adorjan (because she casts them away in silence) or Oramus (whom is beyond matters of morality). Isidoros seems more like he could understand it but you move on anyways. I mean, if he wanted to understand them by his nature nothing could stop him. Really it applies to multiple Yozi.

Reading over all this would it be safe to say the most popular idea for what happens to an infernal soul world is that it becomes a part of hell? If so, would it be under the effects of the Surrender Oaths?

And if not, what could infernals do knowing that if they die they'll create an unbound layer of Hell? It feels like that could be used as a threat. Maybe to avoid that, with the Infernal death they are now bound by the surrender oaths? Without the Infernal there to "be a part of them" they just... become bound in the chains of an oath they never took. I dunno. I think i like the idea of it creating an unbound hell.

It's in a special place because infernals are new, so it being disruptive to the settings past doesn't matter. You got a ton of wiggle room.

>>97103229
>I also don't really mind that 1e and 3e had him being something else instead of just "The Devil" and "Hellfire eternal punishment".
Tbqh what I've seen of him in 3e seems a lot like 2e just with the edginess and cowardice sanded off.

>>97102385
Huh. For some reason, I was expecting it to be in Survival. Funny thing, though, it's still in the Zenith set, so it still ends up being an easy grab for the "Infernal Priest" slot.

What are the rules for teaching people without using charms?

>>97103165
>This is normally the part where I’d join in on the endless unceasing /exg/ nigga moments, but
And yet you did anyway

>>97102052
>They, and the Incarna, are the most tangible characters
Not the multitude of statted Exalts, minor gods, and mortals that are much more normal to interact with?

>>97103291
Honestly... yeah? I mean, that's basically what 1e and 3e Ebon Dragon are. The lack of story focus on them also helps.

One thing I'll never "agree" with is the idea that Yozi are "Vaster then humans". Not because it's not canon, it's more ethereal then that. It's because "Vaster/more then humans" -always- means they're just dipshit people. Somehow being bigger and vaster -always- means you're somehow super limited and can't comprehend shit.

This isn't exactly a complaint with this setting though. Literally every game I've played besides Morrowind has this feeling. It's a very human thing to go "If you were somehow more and bigger then a human, you'd be a fucking retard." DnD, Exalted, world of darkness, are all guilty of this. I don't even know how you'd "fix" it, you can't exactly play something that's smarter and "more" then you are.

Gosh darn guys talk more it feels so lonely in here.

I downloaded the touhou futa manuscript for infernals and it had four chapters, ending at charms. Is that still all there is? I'm not exactly sure how leaks with manuscripts work and I'm curious what the downloads in the OP are. Are they constantly updated? or is what we have all that we have till the book is done?

Stakes the leeches. Burn the bloodsuckers. Bury the blank bodies. Kill kill and kill more

Suffer not blood virus to live

I FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO THE PROTON DRIVE LINKS! wooo me

>>97097470
What are your hopes for Sorcery in Infernals?

>>97103749
It just happens without a roll, and it counts as training with a teacher. Without a teacher, it takes longer than the listed times.

>>97103955
Go home, WoD. You're so drunk that you're in an alternate universe.

>>97099036
Blood virus detected

>>97103913
I would talk more but I knew as soon as the manuscript dropped that the threads would be ass for months.

>>97103977
That they put out a dozen more Solar Circle spells, along with a couple more initiations associated with demons more tempting than Mara. A Markarios initiation would go over well with a relatively high number of players, and Ligier and Orabilis have fans who'd throw a character onto their good graces too.

There just aren't that many people willing to take a deal with Mara precisely because she's a temptress who'll ruin you and presented that way in the text. That's not the kind of thing that'll work on players. Markarios on the other hand is obviously corrupting the people who try to deal with him if you take anything more than a surface glance, but the text describes him in a way that leaves people thinking they can negotiate honestly and openly and trust the guy to adhere to terms.

>>97103977
We're getting 13 new Solar tier spells, and many old ones from previous editions. What more could you want?

>>97103955
>>97103991
>Go home, WoD. You're so drunk that you're in an alternate universe.
It's honestly not even going to surprise people if you throw in a vampire masquerade leeching on people in most of the cities in Creation for the players to run into. It's only a problem if the blood demons pop off with some bullshit celerity combo that worfs the Exalted, but honestly it's okay so long as you keep the generation down.

>>97104013
I want something so Yozi can "infect" the sorcery they cast. Stunting demonic themes into your sorcery for some kind of bonus.

>>97103955
By calling it a blood virus you're implying that they're sick humans.

Do you have a favorite WoD moment? Mine is when Ravnos and the Tremere just shit on a bunch of useless ass mages. Probably one of the best written parts of the game line.

mages just don't compare to god, caine or any antediluvian. We have proof. Hell they don't even compare to the Tremere, they get pwned. It's literal canon. You'd never think that by just talking to Mage "fans" but once you read the books and learn the lore it's pretty fascinating.

>>97104034
>genuinely starting a dumb powerlevel debate on the wrong game
Don't.

>>97104043
I DIDN'T START IT.

>>97104034
Rambling of an pitiful undead parasite

Ravnos the bloated parasite get nuked by techies is the happiest and the most glorious moment in the WoD

>>97104061
It literally did nothing lmao. Read the books.

>>97104056
>>97104061
Don't.

>>97104065
alright baby, fine.

I really hope infernal sorcery is as cool as I want it to be.

>>97099121
>>97104056
Nah you definitely started it

>>97104034
Caine vs Joe Random Solar
Caine activates his ability: "You Fucking Lose!"
Solar uses Integrity Protecting Prana! He refuses to lose, and continues to do so for the next hour!
Caine seethes.

This place has been awful enough already. Can you guys not?

>>97103885
Drawanon also mentioned the phenomenon, that people mostly write fanfics about the high end characters.

>>97104120
No, you're just a faggot who can't read.
>>97104138
I mean, I tried. Something about people thinking vampires are cool just drives these mentally ill people crazy.

>>97103889
It is just a common writing vice, similar to "above good and evil, or emotionless = sadistic psychopath".

>>97104133
Honestly, I agree with you. If the Exalted were in WoD they'd be the only ones who'd stand a chance against him. You'd just, you know, have to change the rules and give him actual stats instead of his storyteller power of "You just lose."

You'd need a whole circle of them though.

>>97104169
See the raging of bloodsucking faggot!

A great many mentally ill psychos love to be fucked by blank bodied undead parasites

>>97104167
Characters that have almost all been explicitly sidelined.

>>97104192
Yes, even then, people don't talk about the others

>>97104187
Ravnos and the Tremere absolutely destroyed Mages and nothing can change that being canon.

>>97104034
>By calling it a blood virus you're implying that they're sick humans.

They are sick. They're LARPers.

>>97104133
It's like a hilarious parody version of the last fight in Shin Megami Tensei Apocalypse!

>>97104183
Even a low essence solaroid will be more than enough to cleanse a city's worth of leeches

Go find the WoD general and argue there you tremendous cunts

>>97104210
nigga EXvsWOD is a big thing here

>>97104205
And Goku could beat all the vampires and Saitama could beat all the Solars. Power levels are neat. I mean, Goku can beat any solar just by virtue of them blowing up planets, something Solars absolutely can't do as easily. Saitama for should could.

>>97104202
Vampires being larpers is so accurate that it's beautiful. It's just. So fucking true.

>>97104214
Get the fuck out, this is just an oWoD slapfight between gay autists

>>97104223
I'm bisexual you racist ass.

>>97104223
>"Don't discuss a very popular crossover!!!!!"
Stay mad, I guess?

>>97104242
yeah, what a fuck head.

>>97104216
>And Goku could beat all the vampires and Saitama could beat all the Solars. Power levels are neat. I mean, Goku can beat any solar just by virtue of them blowing up planets, something Solars absolutely can't do as easily. Saitama for should could.
What happens if the Five-Metal Shrike fires it's Godspear at Goku, or a Solar hits him with Pattern Spider Touch?

Saitama has the hax to beat even the best case Exalted though I think. He's hard countered by Malediction of the Distorted Compass but nobody could win a fight.

>>97104216
Can anyone explain why he is suddenly bringing up Goku and Saitama?

>>97104264
Because this discussion is equally irrelevant to the thread.

>>97104264
Because we were veering into WoD power levels for a while and he's doing a subject change to bring it back to Exalted by involving Exalted in crossovers with other franchises. I consider him entirely respectable even though I'm nta.

>>97104262
Well, Piccolo got hit by magic from Babadi and managed to "out power it" so I imagine it'd be much the same. Or, with a high enough power level they could pull a vegito and just attack while shaped into something.

It's really them having no response to someone blowing up the planet they are.

>>97104198
There's a lot of cool characters in the game and I'm really tired of people focusing their attention on what is essentially background lore in the shape of a character

>>97104294
>Well, Piccolo got hit by magic from Babadi and managed to "out power it" so I imagine it'd be much the same. Or, with a high enough power level they could pull a vegito and just attack while shaped into something.
I think it depends on where in the series Goku is if you think he can reasonably outpower Pattern Spider Touch? It's worked to slay a Primordial into a Neverborn with it's 'become nothing' effect before, and that's a pretty high bar as far as oneshot damage goes. Still, it sounds like a viable defense, it's just a matter of power levels on that front. Doing Vegito's thing probably doesn't work if they're made into nothing, not just changed into another form.

Outpowering the Godspear sounds implausible. Dragonball scales to high but real numbers, never to the actual no joke infinity damage the Godspear nukes you with.

>It's really them having no response to someone blowing up the planet they are.
They do have some responses. Perfect defenses will save individuals and Guarding Star Tactics could bounce a planet-buster if someone who knows it can get in the way (it's lore description of it being used does include the planetary feat of bouncing colliding Malfean layers apart), though that particular effect is probably not something anybody has in the Age of Sorrows unless a Sidereal has a comparable SMA. Some attacks have the range to hit people in orbit, so long as they're within line of sight. Their counters if Goku hides behind a star (hiding behind the moon/sun would not work out for him) are pretty slim, but Goku can't breath in space.

>>97104199
When and how?

>>97104453
Hmm. On the other hand Goku has access to true resurrection and can instantly teleport places, something that I don't think the Exalted can do. I -think- the exalted have a way to teleport back home but I have no idea how long that takes, so if Goku instant transmissions them to another planet they don't have many options I'd think.

Goku can also dodge things that move faster then light, like when he pre-blocks Hit during time stop. Of course, light is way way slower in Dragon Ball and they move so fast they can't be seen even before Z even happens.

The best bet I think is magic or mind control but those can be overpowered with will and Ki. However a Solar being able to talk Goku into joining him because Goku is "pure of heart" seems very likely. Goku and US just chilling out, US is all how did you get here, Goku mentions the Dragon Balls, US is all "Oh shit, I can bring dead people back to life? Can I use them?" and Goku is all like "Sure, you're a good person. I can help you." and then US gets one out of three wishes.

If the US could bring one of his loved ones back to life I wonder who he would choose. I feel like he used to have a wife but I could be tripping.

>>97104562
>Hmm. On the other hand Goku has access to true resurrection and can instantly teleport places, something that I don't think the Exalted can do. I -think- the exalted have a way to teleport back home but I have no idea how long that takes, so if Goku instant transmissions them to another planet they don't have many options I'd think.
They do have some ways back, but they can be slow or dangerous or involve a lot of training or not be available to some kinds of Exalt. At least one of those ways is artifact-based and everybody could use it, the Ring of Vanishing Escape, where you basically put on a belt and can trigger it to pull you back to it's mount somewhere else. From Sidereal Martial Arts, Glance and Stride allows instant line-of-sight teleportation at cheap(basically free) prices, and Dreamwalker Kata can teleport you to anybody who's dream you have access to (most Quicksilver Hand masters will have useful travel spots available). Ebon Shadow Style (which any Exalt can theoretically learn) can transport you directly to the Labyrinth, and from there you can get pretty much anywhere instantly.

Also, there aren't actually that many planets in the Creation cosmos - there's Creation, and in the Celestial Vault there is the Moon and the Sun and the stars, and they aren't really that far away with how quickly stars can fall after their god dies.

>Goku can also dodge things that move faster then light, like when he pre-blocks Hit during time stop.
There do exist a bunch of charms/effects that make attacks always hit, but for some of the attacks (mostly the Five-Metal Shrike's Godspear, since it doesn't have a way to guarantee a perfect hit) I was presupposing that Goku would simply not dodge, because it charges up for five seconds and then shoots a giant fucking laser beam cannon. Dragonball characters rarely dodge these kind of attacks, but I don't deny that he could easily outspeed most of the Exalted universe.

I see why these threads are pretty shit these days

>>97104623
This is Infernalfags and late 2e nerds coming out of the woodwork because of the recent release, not some kind of long-term endemic thing. They'll probably fuck off again soon.

>>97104629
Maybe I'll check back in a month. They're making the threads really unfun

Why the exalted so cringely feminist? Majority of important characters are women. Default pronoun is she. Even charms are feministic

Objectively, very few women will exalt. They simply don't possess necessary drive, agency and potential.

>>97104006
At least in 1E and 2E Makarios explicitly was an honest merchant whose deal pretty much was exactly what it seemed to be.

>>97104758
Voice of the author. I don't have a problem with it, but I do think it's really lame that they dropped bits of the nuance in the setting, like the Realm's mild chauvinism towards men.

>>97104765
>At least in 1E and 2E Makarios explicitly was an honest merchant whose deal pretty much was exactly what it seemed to be.
His deal was corrupting Creation's systems, anon. It directly and intentionally contributed to and facilitated the slave value extraction pipeline. His deals were what he said they were, and the costs were often not put on the person making deals with him, they were put on others. I understand that it may be difficult to wrap your head around macro scale manipulation, but it's not difficult to see how he makes it happen.

>>97104804
"Slave value extraction pipeline" is not a corruption of Creation's systems, it's business as usual. I don't think Creation's ever seen a widespread abolitionist movement - from every bit of lore I've seen, slavery has always been a thing, whether in the First Age or now. Makarios is just a merchant dealing in strange wares and taking his payment in a strange currency, not really a particularly corrupting influence in the context of Creation, and the point of his business is the business itself and the accumulation of wealth, not macro scale manipulation.

>>97104822
Holy shit, the apologism

>>97104833
That's not apologism, anon. That's just Makarios as actually written. Exalted's demons are broken, fucked up beings, but they're mostly not corrupters - the ones who are, like Mara, are explicitly stated to be so. You're reading things that aren't there into Makarios' writeups.

>>97104852
This is your brain on propaganda I guess. Whatever you want to do at your table then.

>>97104865
Officially published material is propaganda now? Do you think there's some kind of an underlying reality to Exalted that differs from what's presented in the books, anon?

>>97104888
Hey man, don't let me stop you from enjoying your vision. It's clear you have your own opinion that you're not changing so have fun.

>>97104822
>"Slave value extraction pipeline" is not a corruption of Creation's systems, it's business as usual.
It's bad and he's making it worse, and thus he is a corrupting influence on Creation and it's systems. This is the case regardless of the state of abolition or whether or not slavery was already a thing.

>>97104914
Creation sucks to live in. Makarios really does meet it at about its own level. Also, demons loose in Creation cause problems mostly out of consequences and never because they're evil made flesh that infects others with evil (that doesn't exist, because it describes a shinma that outlines and defines Compassion by being the exact opposite, or at least did in prior editions).

If you want to quibble over that... there's about two and a half decades of elaboration from various writers and developers saying that you're wrong.

Now, if you want to get into what demon/Infernal apologism actually is, go read the Yozi-worshippers in A Day As Dark As Night (the pdf is literally free, you only need to download it from dtrpg). They spend all their time glazing the Old Ones to a ridiculous degree as part of a pretty extreme breach of logic, unless they're just self-serving and want a promotion from a new boss. And that's just corruption of political and other social systems, not of a metaphysical variety.

>>97104927
It's obviously bad, but Makarios is benefiting from an already existing and entirely homegrown Creation-based system of injustice rather than corrupting anything. He's not a moral person by any stretch of imagination, but he's no different in terms of corruptive influence than any of the countless entirely human skave owners and slave traders in Creation.

>>97104914
Sure, I do enjoy the vision of Makarios presented in the books. I would've also enjoyed hearing what you're basing your view on Makarios, divergent as it is from canon, on, but I guess it is not to be.

>>97104951
Not gonna lie, I'm trying to live and let live but you kind of sound like one of those insufferable forum autists from before everything got nuked

>>97104951
It's also arguably easier for an Exalt who can summon and bind Makarios to game his system and just get people to work in shifts with temporary marks than it is to actually dismantle slavery in Creation. Task bind him for an indefinite period so that he's too occupied to go to anything else for dreamers, and take care of distribution.

>>97104973
Living and let live is nice, but since you're on a thread for discussing Exalted, I assumed you wanted to, you know, discuss Exalted. Which is, if it's unclear, what I'm trying to do with you here, and as a part of this whole thing I'm asking you why do you think that Makarios has a corruptive manipulation thibg his writeups don't say anything about going on.

>>97105026
Yeah, man, you gotta chill a bit. This is why people left the official forums

>>97105026
>>97105034
I see where this is going. I'm going to try to cut this interaction short. Translating the post for those on the Autistic Spectrum:
>"I don't want to discuss things with you while you're being obnoxious."
Hopefully that clears things up for all involved parties.

>>97105034
Brother, if you're not interested in discussing this, you can drop it and stop responding at your own discretion. If you intend to keep replying while refusing to actually respond to anything being said and while also acting like asking for the reason you have a particular view, brought up by yourself, on a particular character is some completely unreasonable thing to do, though, you don't really have much room to call anyone else insufferable.

>>97104984
I'm actually a bit unlcear on how Makarios' deal works. Like, is his price x number of people branded with his sigil, or is it more like x amount of dreams, like, say, a 1,000 nights' worth of dreams that can be given as either one guy being branded for a thousand nights or a thousand people being branded for one night? GoD doesn't say either way. 2E's RoGD does say that he wants a certain number of mortals to be branded, but it also says that the brand fades in time and does not go into any detail about how long the sigil lasts.

>>97105063
2e quantified his capacity to make his wares via via Dreamscape and Calculated Order of Immediate Action, so as long as he had a dreamer, he could make something up to Resources 4 in one go. He also wants to expand his markets, so he would probably need, if not want, an ever-expanding number of marked individuals for this, and his price probably relates to how close it puts him to accomplishing a new phase in his planned expansion. He also gathers Essence this way, so that might also factor into it - his "ideal setup" would probably have dreamers feeding in motes to allow him to shape more items from other dreamers.

Since it seems that distance doesn't matter for the production process, any marked dreamers would be worth getting in on things, but groups of three or more might get better considerations.

>>97105100
3e, meanwhile, leaves his production capacity much more up in the air, though it also implies use of the crafting rules. He does not get extra motes from dreamers, only using their dreams as nebulous basic materials for his rolls.

>>97105100
That's actually smaller in scale than I'd thought. I had a mental image of his customers branding armies of slaves to pay him, for some reason. I feel kind of embarrassed about not doing the simple math behind Makarios' specific powers myself - I have very little recollection of 2E spirit mechanics, but of course I could've taken the time to check them. Another thing to keep in mind is that Exalted can take the lack of dreams without significant ill effects, though it's not pleasant. That doesn't mean much for a mortal dealing with Makarios, but an Exalt could source the dreams ethically, safely and sustainably from himself.

>this thread
Maybe cutting infernals out of the setting isn't a bad idea after all.

>>97105154
There's a lot that's wrong with this thread, but none of it has mich to do with Infernals.

>>97105169
Depends on if you count Infernalfags as something the splat is responsible for.

>>97105178
The worst thing about this thread so far, in my opinion, have been the two guys arguing about WoD without really making even a token effort to pretend that their argument was in any way relevant to Exalted. I don't think you can blame that on Infernalfags.

>>97105201
Which argument about WoD? There have been several in this thread and they both involve Infernalfags

>>97105207
The one that was allabout WoD without referencing Exalted at all. I don't think there have been multiple separate arguments like that in this thread. If there have, I've zoned out at some point, and am happy with that. I'm pretty sure there's no indication of Infernalsfaggotry in the argument I have in mind.

>>97105034
I told you, these people do not know Exalted lore and they don't care about it. I'm also confused, the Primordials quite literally created slavery in Exalted. The gods and demons are their slaves. This is like, the single most basic parts of the lore. Right next to Hell being Malfeas.

I don't know enough Makarios to say anything but I can promise you what the books say is going to be vastly different then what you're told here. Someone could just post a picture of his write up.

You should be happy I'm here, at least I won't cry for... 10? 15 years? About a game I say I love yet never stop complaining about and never have anything nice to offer for it.

I also read the books and I don't know why that's so hard for people to do. Blahblah Makarios, post his page. Don't make stuff up, let people see it so they can call retards retards. Is that actual work? Yes. It's also one of the few things you can do to scare them off. Actual lore is poison for them.

>>97105213
The one talking about Ravnos? Then yeah, it's an Infernalfag. Pretty sure it's this guy, actually. Pretty distinctive. >>97105217

Holy shit, I just read the stats. You fucks think a second soul of the Ebon Dragon is trustworthy and on the up and up? IN 2E??? Can someone screen cap his lore in 2e and post it here? You know, so people can read it for the first time because they clearly never have before?

I don't want to do it myself because I don't want to educate anyone.

>>97101019
>Isidoros
Does literally anyone give a fuck about the pig?
Best use Isi ever got was Holden putting him through a meatgrinder to make the Party Rock Dimension Exalts in ExWoD.

>>97105217
>these people don't know Exalted lore
>I don't know enough Makarios to say anything but
>BUT I can promise you what the books say is going to be vastly different then what you're told here
>I also read the books and I don't know why that's so hard for people to do
There's a joke here, but I think it so obvious that it doesn't even need to be told.

>>97105235
He has a cool homebrew charmset in 2e. Otherwise nothing has ever really been done with him.

Best use I can think of is having an adventure in one of his hoof-print cities.

>>97105240
Oh nooo I don't know everything off hand, instead I'll be like you and just be wrong about literally everything I say.

You are actually scared about someone posting an image of Makarios write up because it shows just how fucking stupid you are. A second soul of the Ebon Dragon. On the up and up. In -2e-. You fucking monkey.

>>97105233
>You fucks think a second soul of the Ebon Dragon is trustworthy and on the up and up?
You don't know how this whole soul hierarchy thing works, huh? Yes, anon, when the writeup explicitly says that Makarios is trusteworthy in his business dealings, then that is how it works.

Makarios' writeup for 1E is on page 102 of Games of Divinity and for 2E on pages 65-67 of The Books of Soorcery, Vol. V: the Scroll of Glorious Divinity II. Everyone in this thread has access to the relevant books through the links in the OP. That's enough spoonfeeding right there. whether people want to read the writeups or not is a personal choice.

>>97105247
It's not that you don't know everything off hand. anon. It's that you feel the need to comment on things you know nothing about while simultaneously complaining about other people not knowing and/or caring about the lore.

>>97105034
For what it's worth these people have absolutely no place in the community anymore. This is quite literally the only place that they can shit on system for 15+ years that exists while also being wrong about lore all the time.

It's not about them being right, they haven't cared for a good long time. Just look at all the stupid shit they think is canon that isn't. FFS they think a second soul of the Ebon Dragon is on the up and up. IN 2E. Just holy shit.

These people are obsessed with a game they don't understand and literally can't stop themselves for complaining about something they know nothing about.

fucking a second soul of the ebon dragon. On the up and up. They think the Primordials didn't have slaves! How do you argue with that which does not care about lore? It's actually sad. I honestly feel bad for these people. It's been almost 15 years if I'm doing the math right and they are parroting the exact same things. It's just so sad. These are real people who are like this. Think about that.

Or don't. It will make you sad.

>>97105213
I think they've literally all been spawned from the same Infernalfag having a spaz attack about people not thinking Yozi count as people

>>97097470
What do you need to remember about including the Empress?

>>97105260
Oh yes, anyone can read his write up. They should. It doesn't say what you think it says.

thinking a second soul of the ebon dragon is on the up and up. Holy fuck, that's being impressively wrong with the lore. But please, post the actual imagine of his text. I want to laugh at your lack of reading comprehension. Because fuck, it's bad. It's so bad.

>>97105261
>They think the Primordials didn't have slaves!
I sincerely hope this is bait, because the kind of problem with reading comprehension that would be required to genuinely misunderstand something this badly would be crippling in the modern world. Realistically, of course, your post is most likely both bait and a sign of some kind of an actual disability. I assume you genuinely think that you're only pretending to be retarded, but I'm afraid it's not really true.

>>97105266
...what?

>>97105268
Her name when she dies in 2e is The Phoenix Astride the World and that's so much cooler then her normal name.

>>97105213
You know, this comment didn't even last an hour did it?

>>97105273
>crying because you're wrong.

Anyone can read your posts dipshit. But keep thinking a second soul of the Ebon Dragon is on the up and up. In 2e. We need more obvious dumb shit for you to our yourself with.

I am so glad you're no longer a part of this community while I am. It feels warm.

>>97105274
That's what it looks like following the reply chain all the way back.

>>97105151
>That's actually smaller in scale than I'd thought. I had a mental image of his customers branding armies of slaves to pay him, for some reason.
That's exactly what he encourages and makes deals for, regardless of whether or not he could mechanically do just fine with fewer. This is one of the indicators that he isn't, actually, just out to make an honest buck, and both does have longer term plans and does have an outsized negative impact on Creation.

Who is the community? Are they in the room with us?

>>97105270
Anon, you have the books, you know the page numbers. Do not ask for more spoonfeeding than that. Also note how Ebon Dragon's souls, let alone the souls of his souls, don't share his 2E traits such as a complete lack of Virtues. Makarios, for example, has Compassion 3, Conviction 3, Temperance 3 and Valor 2. Also Malfeas's souls aren't all mad all the time, Adorjan's souls aren't murder winds and so on. You don't understand how the Yozi soul hierarchies work.

>>97105280
Heck, I just remember someone being all Charlie Kirk with what constitutes personhood. They think Yozi are basic like animals, instead of the vast and incredibly (yet hostile) beings that they are. I'm not going to do any digging but it basically amounted to "Yozi can't change, so they aren't persons."

I dunno. I just remember it sounding like something a nerdier Charlie Kirk would say.

>>97105270
>thinking a second soul of the ebon dragon is on the up and up
Being related to the Ebon Dragon has nothing to do with why Markarios is actively bad for Creation. Second circles are so divorced from the Yozi's pathos that there's basically no reason to think about the Big ED while talking about him, and even third circles are kind of a wash as far as how they relate to their Yozi's personality goes. It's not like Ligier's an asshole and he's Malfeas' fetich.

>>97105277
>this community
You're here, anon. Just one anon among others.

>>97105284
I mean, a lot of businessmen are out to make more money than they strictly need to fund their lifestyles and so on. I'm pretty sure Makarios is supposed to be in part some kind of a jab at capitalism, accumulating wealth so he can expand his business so he can accumulate more wealth, though.

>>97105286
I think they're always in the room with the anon who keeps going on about the community.

>>97105290
I don't know what some perforated yapper has to do with Exalted lore, but this whole thing has been caused by Infernalfags starting and continuing shitstorm after shitstorm. Possibly just the same guy over and over again who cannot get over himself.

>>97105287
Lol you think a second soul of the ebon dragon is on the up and up and you're still too scared to link the game text. I'm not gonna do it buddy. You're going to have to.

A second soul of the ebon dragon. On the up and up. In 2e. Holy shit. Just holy shit. It takes like two paragraphs for even the most illiterate of fucks to know he's not going to be on the up-and-up. It takes like two lines to see that's not the case. It's an IMPRESSIVE amount of reading illiteracy. I legit feel bad for what you are, for how long you've been it.

>>97105286
Go type your stuff in forums and discords, you will be laughed away. You don't matter anymore and this is the only place you can be THIS wrong. It's very sad.

>>97105301
Ah, the community, I see. The one in your head

>>97105300
You know, people can read the thread and comments. They know you're wrong. It's such a shame, this thread could be cool if we didn't have people just making up fake lore all the time.

>>97105292
A second soul of the ebon dragon. On the up and up. In 2E. You think this and argued for it. You are, objectively, so fucking stupid.

File: 1764365059768376.jpg (83 KB, 574x480)

83 KB JPG

The argument between these two posters has made me decide to never recruit anyone who wants to play an Infernal. Something about that splat attracts major pedants, and I don't want to deal with those bad vibes.

>>97105304
You don't matter anymore and you can't continue to be wrong about exalted in the places that would matter. You know this. You've tried doing your thing in other places, got called out for it, and were removed. I am 100% certain of this.

Be honest now.

>>97105292
I think Ligier's deal in relating to Malfeas' personality is pretty straightforward: he's still glorious, he looks down on Malfeas, he represents Malfeas' clinging to past glories and self-loathing caused by his current circumstances, and he therefore is at the heart of Malfeas' rage and humiliation without actually sharing in those emotions himself. But yeah, he's definitely not just a miniature Malfeas but a very different guy in terms of personality.

As for Makarios, he's a soul of Erembour. Erembour seems to be pretty much Ebon Dragon's celebration of darkness - she embodies that, and no other qualities of Ebon Dragon. Not, if we consider the 2E take on ED, his deceit, his antagonism, his lack of Virtue or anything like that - just being a being of darkness and loving darkness. Erembour is more about literal, physical darkness than metaphorical darkness, too, and presumably that's where Makarios' connection to dreams, as something associated with the night and therefore with darkness, comes from.

>>97105308
I know we make jokes all the time but I think you might legitimately need to be medicated. You are lashing out hard at basically everyone for no reason

>>97105310
I don't actually think you can recruit people to play Exalted. I don't think anyone would want to play with you for very long to begin with.

>>97105312
Actually a schizo moment.

File: 158515d37832555798.jpg (32 KB, 540x540)

32 KB JPG

>>97105315
but I've been in a game for a year

>>97105301
>you're still too scared to link the game text
I've given the books, which anyone can get through the OP, and the specific page numbers, anon.

>Go type your stuff in forums and discords, you will be laughed away. You don't matter anymore and this is the only place you can be THIS wrong. It's very sad.
Go post about Makarios being inherently untrustworthy (regardless of what the books say) because he's related to the Ebon Dragon in a few different forums, screencap the replies you get and come back here with the results. Also tell me the name you post with "in the community". I frequent a couple of different forums, and I want to know who you are so I can ignore your posts.

>>97105314
>still crying

You think the Ebon Dragons second soul is on the up and up. That's how little you know about the setting you've been obsessed with for so many years. That funny and so, so sad. But again, you don't matter and you can't say your bullshit in other places. That's funny and very sad.

Also say what you will but this is way better then just bitching mindlessly about 3e for, what, ten years straight? Imagine being that much of a fucking loser lol.

>>97105286
I'm pretty much convinced he's a legit schizo at this point. No one with a redditoid stick so far up their ass would be wanted at any table, no matter whether anything he's posted in his rants is correct or not. He's just a gigantic pedantic pain in the ass.

>>97105314
Anon might well just be trolling, though of course such persistent trolling isn't really a sign of a healthy mind, either.

>>97105318
Nah. You think the second soul of the Ebon Dragon is trustworthy. In 2E. Even after you say you've read his stat page. I can't argue with someone that retarded, all I can do is repeat just how overwhelming stupid that is.

But please. I am actually asking you to do this as an act of kindness. Show me a thread or some place where you've had an actual conversation. I want to see one thing that you're actually right about. It's important to me. I just don't see how it's possible for you to be wrong about every single bit of Exalted lore you say you think you know.

>>97105286
>Who is the community? Are they in the room with us?
Anon... yes. The community is in the thread with you.

>>97105284
Lots of Guildsmen probably do way worse. Treating madness is probably easier than having to retrieve their marbles from Fair Folk feeding maws.

Both, of course, will be screwed when an abolitionist movement actually manages to take root, but that takes lots more Exalted than just Strength-of-Many doing the pushing.

>>97105321
You've said that faggot.
>>97105323
You also said that already.

I'm so glad you freaks are quarantined to this place and no longer matter. Now please, go back to whining about 3e for another ten years. You know you won't stop.

>>97105319
Anon, understand that 3CDs embody specific parts of a Yozi's personality, not all of it, that Ebon Dragon's souls don't share in the entirety of his nature, and that 2CDs, in turn, represent merely parts, not the whole, of their 3CD. Meditate on the differences between Malfeas and Ligier and Ligier and Berengiere, and those between Adorjan and Jacint and Jacint and Zsofika, and on the fact of Florivet's rebellion against his original role and Orabilis' wishes, and then think about how whatever insights you might be able to achieve through such meditations might apply to the relations between Ebon Dragon, his souls and his souls' souls.

>>97105334
You think the second soul of the Ebon Dragon is on the up and up. You defended that and argued for it. That's very funny.

>>97105321
I think you might be right. Guy has actual mental issues.

>>97105330
>Lots of Guildsmen probably do way worse. Treating madness is probably easier than having to retrieve their marbles from Fair Folk feeding maws.
When I say that he's part of the Guild's slavery value extraction pipeline, that pipeline includes the Fae. They mark people for Markarios, feed them to the Fae, get them back soulless from the Fae for use in the fields or trade them with Realm tributaries for fresh slaves at an up-rate, then the satrap sends them back to the Realm as part of the tithe while the fresh slaves repeat the cycle. It's all happening. He's there, making it worse.

>>97105327
>Nah. You think the second soul of the Ebon Dragon is trustworthy. In 2E.
It's because it's 2e that Markarios is more trustworthy. In 3e the relationships between Yozi and their demons is much more squidgy and I would definitely not trust one of the Ebon Dragon's second circle demons nearly as far as I would in 2e. In 2e the relationships between the Yozi and their demons are pretty clearly delineated and the values of the demons have clear separation from the Yozi.

>>97105330
Guildmen, the Realm, First Age Solars with their whole races created for slavery...a lot of people do worse. Not a defense of Makarios, of course, but he's a drop in the bucket without either capacity or intent to make things worse than they already are. In a better world he couldn't ply his trade in Creation, but preventing him from plying his trade wouldn't in itself make Creation any better.

>>97105341
I sure as fuck wouldn't deal with him without some hefty exalted magic to make sure I'm always in a superior position. Markarios is one of those demons I don't expect to last all that long in a game, for the reasons you mentioned above.

Maybe if I playing with a bunch of evil people but trusting him? lmao. lol even. I'd trust that my exalted is better then him but that's about it. Or that he'd follow orders when bound, because they don't really have a choice.

There also isn't really much there for him. It's like two pages but most it is taken up by his picture. Which if you saw and STILL continued to truth him then just. lol. Lmao. He looks like he fucks his employees.

He is a cool demon though, I can see him being fun to have in a game. Once again all the hell related stuff in Exalted is the coolest stuff. It's amazing how consistent they are with that.

>>97105341
>He's there, making it worse.
What part of that situation would be improved if the Guild just sold people to the Fae and then re-bought and re-sold them for menial work without dealing with Makarios at any point?

>>97105347
...I'm pretty sure it would man. Why uh, why wouldn't it? You've been told what he does so I'm not sure how you can say that. He's a second soul of the ebon dragon, of course he's capable of more then humans or dragonblooded are.

>>97105350
A bunch of humans fucking around with the fae without the exalted or gods or demons to help them sounds like it would not go well for the humans.

So I imagine significantly less safe for those who are a part of it.

>>97105310
Infernals were a mistake

>>97105350
>What part of that situation would be improved if the Guild just sold people to the Fae and then re-bought and re-sold them for menial work without dealing with Makarios at any point?
Changes the value proposition and that alters the risk assessment. If you can get Resources 5 out of a hundred slaves by selling them to Markarios without interfering with the rest of your value extraction pipeline which also extracts a lot of money (but enough that Markarios' products, which are typically specialty and normally hard to get in Creation, still very much can sway the needle) that incentive means there's going to be a hell of a lot more demand for slaves, and that means there's going to be more slave-taking going on.

>>97105352
Because every slave branded with his sigil would still be a slave if they weren't branded with his sigil, and because he just isn't a big factor in the widespread slavetrade in Creation that's mostly driven by the completely mundane greed of humans.

>>97105355
I don't think Makarios is involved with the Guild'd dealings with the Fair Folk. At least I don't remember that being said anywhere, and I don't think he'd be much use from Hell, anyways. My impression is that the Guild's dealings with the Fair Folk work much the same way they'd work with humans. Both parties are useful to the other, and both parties understand that. Of course, the Guild does have its own divine allies, as well as the services of the occasional Outcaste mercenary.

>>97105368
I sometimes forget that the people who have spent a significant chuck on their life complaining about 3e did the same for 2e back when that was the current edition.

>>97105355
>A bunch of humans fucking around with the fae without the exalted or gods or demons to help them sounds like it would not go well for the humans.
It goes well for them all the time. That's why they do it. Fae can generate ludicrous profits with trivial ease, adhere to sworn oaths (making them significantly more honest than a lot of gods), and mortals have something to sell them.

>>97105378
Infernals do just attract the worst people and situations. These threads are a microcosm of the phenomenon

>>97105382
At this point the worst thing about this thread is no longer people arguing about WoD, but the troll and/or schizo going on about "the community" that everyone who disagrees with him is apparently excluded from. That guy's been in these threads for a while, and you definitely can't blame him on Infernals.

>>97105386
It's comorbid.

>>97105372
Nothing you said here sounds wrong, obviously him not being there are whatever isn't some instant fix. It's just whether he's trustworthy and if he's making things worse for people.

There is also the bit about people who die with the sigil are left in moldering graves dreaming forever of Makarios. That uh, doesn't seem very nice. At least I wouldn't want it to happen to me lol.

>>97105386
You repeat yourself a lot.

>>97105379
I know a lot about fae and truth worthy isn't really the word I'd use to describe them. But sure, there are a ton of fae and them improving the lives of humans isn't the most absurd thing.

>>97105372
>Because every slave branded with his sigil would still be a slave if they weren't branded with his sigil
That's not right. Absolutely people would take slaves for the explicit purpose of applying Markarios' brand to them and generating oodles of rare demon-made goodies, to say nothing of all of the extra effort put into taking slaves. There's a huge difference between being able to double-dip selling to the Realm and Fae and being able to triple-dip by selling the same slave to the Realm, the Fae, AND Markarios.

>>97105386
Chicken and egg scenario.

>>97105390
I do think that his writeups make it clear that he's trustworthy, in the sense that his goals are clear and he doesn't try to cheat his customers. When I say that he doesn't make things worse, I guess I mean that in a big picture sense. Obviously for an individual slave being branded with Makarios' sigil may be a worse fate than what would've otherwise happened to him. Makarios isn't a part of the root causes of Creation's probelms, though, and at most removing him from the picture might improve the lives of some individuals who, as slaves, would still have pretty shitty lives.

>There is also the bit about people who die with the sigil are left in moldering graves dreaming forever of Makarios. That uh, doesn't seem very nice. At least I wouldn't want it to happen to me lol.
True, though desu there's not much detail on what that's like. If I was in Creation, I'd rather take my chances with rebirth than that, but eternity of dreaming sounds better than, say, being enslaved for etenrity in the Underworld or being forged into soulsteel.

>>97105396
This sounds right.

>>97105396
I don't remember trade with Makarios being presented as widespread enough to be mentioned in the same breath with the trade with the Realm, the Fae or just with Threshold mortals. Makarios still has to personally and individually craft his wares, which inevitably limits the scope of his business.

>>97105368
The problem with infernals is they're fundamentally too broad aesthetically, conceptually, thematically, and mechanically. They're cool, but they might as well be a whole-ass second game atop Exalted and that's what killed 2e.

No other splat really needs to Exist if you use the Yozi Charm design space, because Yozi Charms can cover every fucking avenue already taken up by the other splats and do it essentially better.

>>97105409
I don't know man. By trustworthy I think if I talk to him can I trust what he's going to be saying to me. If I'm using bindings and Exalted charms to make sure I get a proper deal, which as an awesome Infernal I 100% could, then that's sorta proof to me that he's not trustworthy. I mean look at him. He looks like a bad guy. I don't want to word salad you though so like...

In certain situations he's trustworthy, but he's still a second soul of the Ebon Dragon and it should be understood that he has his own plots and what he's doing to people isn't good for them. And you certainly, certainly do not want him to have any power over you.

It's funny you should mention soulsteel though because that's what I imagine when they say they're moldering in their graves always dreaming about him. Is that right? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be... pleasant. But heck, maybe it's a good dream. It'd be an interesting twist at least.

God demons in exalted are so fucking cool.