Why did RTS genre die?
esport/multiplayer obsession.
>>727629301Esports put RTS on the map. Nobody played them before
>>727629364you weren't born lmao
>>727628931the genre was propped up by ums maps. blizzard went full jew mode and stopped anyone from creating anything
>>727629364Fuck off, Korean.
>>727628931Genres simply come and go, RTS isn't unique in this regard.
>>727628931Starcraft 2.
>>727629364>>727628931>someone believes this
>>727628931>>727627250
>>727628931There is nowhere left to take the genre. Every new RTS just copies one of the following greats and puts a new coat of paint on:>starcraft>C&C>total annihilation>age of empiresThat's it. That's the ENTIRE RTS genre for the next 30 years.
because its just way too complicated. when you start an RTS match there are so many options to choose from and workers to manage and tech trees to keep in mind.
>>727628931Just a lot more small studios back in the day that were big enough to have a decent budget but small enough to make something soulful.
>>727629775That's only a problem when the game expects you to be banging them out on strict timings from the very first second so you have to have a strategy in mind before you start the match at all. Which isn't how every RTS works.
Because people who like base building figured out x4 games are better for that, people who like fighting realized total war is better and people who like abilities like warcraft all shift towards league and dota. Also rts pvp is sweaty as fuck nobody has time for that and people don’t make cheesy single player games anymore like command and conquer.
>>727629364>RTS started in 2010
>>727629775DOTA 2 is just a massive knowledge check where you have to memorize the interactions between hundreds of items and active abilities, and it's one of the most popular games on Steam. I don't think complexity is the reason RTS died.
>>727629986E-sports didn't even start in 2010. The first televised tournaments in Korea started like two years after Brood War released.
>>727630034The difference is it's very very easy to get the basics of DotA 2 down and learn the game just from playing and observing. DotA 2 also has in game guides that make learning easier. You do that in WC3 or Starcraft and you're just going to lose and lose and lose, forever.
>>727628931It didn't die, Brood War and AoE 2 are so good that they absolutely mog any new attempt
>>727629645If shitzzard wasn't incredibly lazy and put out an honest starcraft 3 no p2w it would fly off the shelves
>>727629761I feel like there have been very few bootleg age of empires
>>727630242You can get the basics down in those games just by playing the campaign. You can't even build tech structures in Starcraft until you make a supply depot and barracks, so there isn't "so many options" to choose from at the start.
>>727629364>Esports put RTS on the map. Nobody played them beforeTell me your above 11 years but below 14 without saying any numbers, the post.
>>727629761>Every new RTS just copies one of the following greats and puts a new coat of paint on:Meanwhile every game like Fallout, The Witcher, Elden Ring, etc look and plays exactly the same.>That's it. That's the ENTIRE RTS genre for the next 30 years.No Warcraft II?
>>727630648Those aren't the real basics of multiplayer.
Zoomers and younger can't handle the organization and logic required for these games.
>>727628931pc-only focused genres decline
>>727630357Would it really though? Koreans aside, I don't think the younger people even know just how fucking huge Starcraft and Warcraft were.
>>727628931>What? you weren't constantly mashing the *SELECT BUILDING* / *BUILD UNIT* buttons?You lose>What? You weren't inputting 20+ APM on top of that?You loseI mean, I really like the genre, but not being able to auto produce units is pretty shit and annoying. Like wow, you can remember to twiddle 2 keys while doing other shit, so skilled. I always find myself too busy working on other shit and realize I have 0 fucking fighters. Only play AI anyways since the OG Warcraft 3 days because I'm probably average at best. If only I had been able to play C&C Zero Hour back in the day...
>>727629761Merge factorio with something like supcom. Make it logistics heavy and slow paced about brining lots of units to a new battlefield/world etc. Might b fun
>>727630648yes but if you arent starting to wall of your ramp with said supply depot you are probably already deadrts games have way more knowledge checks like that while a moba lets you lean on your teammates so you dont instantly lose after making a single mistake
>>727628931they stopped making single player campaigns and catered to multiplayer autists.
>>727631140This is why I love Beyond All Reason. Factories can be set to repeat and unit micro is pretty easy since you can just click and drag formations.
>>727631140none of that used to matter when the main hook of these games was the story mode or doing big skirmish against the cpu
>>727631164>Merge factorio with something like supcom.Someone already tried that and sucksSucks that it sucks because it could work if done right but it didn't.
>>727631393>they stopped making single player campaigns and catered to multiplayer autists.This too. Starcraft 1's single player campaign is one of the best stories/campaigns.
I'm gonna play some hard difficulty Zero Hour Generals Challenge(General Juhziz) right now. Thanks for asking.
>>727631021Honestly if you subtract Korea, they're not much bigger than their contemporaries at all. They had the benefit of being attached to a respected company like Blizzard instead of ones that fucked up and died like Cavedog or got eaten like Westwood so they kept selling and getting a better reputation over time.
>>727628931demanded too much of the players
It all comes down to your moves APM wise and not a lot of depth in strategy compared to turn based.t. played a lot of BW battlenet and masters rank in SC2 WOL (quit before HOTS)
>>727631854The sad thing about RTS is you don't really get to enjoy the Strategy part of the genre until the macro and gook click parts become second nature, and if you're that well developed then you're probably in the top 10% of the ladder or trying out for national tournaments.
>>727629364>Esports put RTS on the map. Nobody played them before
>>727628931I think a good RTS could sell as much as a good RTS sold in their heyday. I also think those kind of sales aren't enough for what is considered a big dev team. But scaling projects and resource management is the biggest issue in the industry these days.
Play it now
>>727632658The biggest problem is how bloated game development costs really are
>>727632735I only play front core bot
>>727632735I amIt's taken so much time from me, even productivity
>>727628931Starcraft got too popular. I remember that Stormgate game that looked interesting, but during their reveal they only talked about fucking e-sports. Back in the day it was common knowledge that only around10-20% of your sp-players even try out mp let alone stick with it.Starcraft really screwed that up.
Because asians that dedicate their entire existence to playing them make them unplayable for everyone else
>>727632956>Thug Life
>>727628931>Why did RTS genre die?Because multiplayer instead of campaign became the focus, and to double-down on the mistake that multiplayer became about laddering (gay & retarded) instead of about custom maps (actually fun). Not to mention, strategy cames went backwards in terms of the gameplay and technical achievements ever since SupCom. I guess Against All Reason pretty cool in that respect, but it's also cool ONLY in that respect. Yeah having 250 players in a giant multiplayer match is rad as hell, but you need a good campaign to ease people into the game if you want a bigger playerbase than you can fit into a single match at once.
>>727633257>rapes your LLTs
>>727632735Alright you convinced me.
>>727633142>that Stormgate game that looked interestingnah, it looked like shit. first time I saw gameplay from it, the units were floaty and awkward and the secondary game designs were boring and uninteresting. the art design was crap as well. then they showed snippets from their campaign and my interest went from low to zero.
>>727628931Gamers are becoming dumber.
>>727633337>Just walks into you
>>727632960Naval is so boring, I wish they had scrapped that part of the game. Not everything from TA/Supcom needed to carry over.
Devs got rid of local LAN multiplayer and casual online so they could push everyone into ranked exports faggotry, which alienated casuals. Then they locked down the map making engines so another DOTA couldnt't slip through their fingers, which alienated the creative players.
>>727629761What is dow/cohWhat is warcraftWhat is strongholdAll of these are popular right now
>>727633651>Then they locked down the map making engines so another DOTA couldnt't slip through their fingers, which alienated the creative players.This was basically the final nail in the coffin.
>>727633142the problem with stormgate wasn't focus on eatsports. there were tons of failed sc2 players ready to jump on stormgate. it ended up with double digit player count anyway because it was a shit game.
>>727629692Its wild. I got called out for lying about playing games online 20 years ago. I swear, most people don't realize that we actually had easy to access online multiplayer lobbies over 20 years ago, with no need to que, and you could even create your own servers. Its wild how multiplayer actually devolved.
>>727628931Industry desperation for>Season pass.>Dlc>gacha Cosmetics>Pay to win>skill based match making (to make the game more welcome to brown kids)>lag equalisation (to make the game more welcoming to brown kids)I have hope my children wont be gaming addicts because the industry kills the golden goose.
>>727633997>the problem with stormgate wasn't focus on eatsports [sic]This 100% was the problem. Their skirmish maps were made with esports in mind. The races and their balance was all made with esports in mind. And most of their developing seemed to go towards constant rebalancing to make the esports crowd happy.Look at what they had in the demo, the first mission. It was so fucking bad. So rudimentary that literal nobodies 20 years ago made better maps in WC3 editors. They had nobody skilled on the team when it came to map design/campaign design. They also had 0 support for the UI when it came to campaign only features. Like the items, why? Because the focus was on esports.
>>727628931The disparity between the single and multiplayer content. There are two completely separate camps of players and they have equal-and-opposite desires for what the genre should be. Single players want a comfy city builder where they make an army and rub it on the enemy army until one side (theirs) wins). Multiplayers want to speedrun "the game winning unit" and move on to the next game so they can increase their internet big boy points. When anything gets a buff or a nerf, it negatively impacts the side that the change was not made for and this is completely irreconcilable. Fuck you for castle dropping me while I was in Feudal age and then infinitely spawning halbs while I still only had 1 barracks. It's not fun and I have no drive to "get better" than you because your playstyle sickens me.
>>727632735>no shield generators>no anti tactical missile defense (unless im wrong)call me a dirty sim city man all you want, im a bubble boy
>>727634248>I have hope my children wont be gaming addicts because the industry kills the golden goose.Sorry m8, but most of these companies are doing this because it works, at least short term. Look at gambling, its in nearly every new game on some degree. Lootboxes, gachas, pack opening... they are creating the next generation of gambling addicts.
>>727628931shed the tedious parts and evolved into MOBA and autobattlers
>>727633301>Because multiplayer instead of campaign became the focusThis shit never happened. This might be the most popular utterly wrong opinion in gaming since people spam this shit in every rts thread despite it not even remotely being trueRTS games faced a general decline in production values in the 2000s that affected all aspects of these games including their multiplayer. SC2 was the swan song of big budget RTS games and it also had the most fleshed out campaigns and casual content besides blizz also trying to push its tournament scene.
>>727628931show me any successful mainly 1v1 game that is still mainstream
>>727634395bonus points for those people whining to get base defenses and walls nerfed, by stats or stone cost.
>>727634395I think I saw polls from multiple youtubers on that, and yeah, most of the community does not care for MP or any kind of competitive gameplay, they might watch it, but they don't care about playing it. Iirc it was harsteem who did a poll like that for SC2, and giant something games, can't remember the second channel. And both had the same results. Casuals love to as you said, rub armies together, and see cool shit happen. Is an ION canon balanced? Fuck no, but I loved absolutely demolishing enemies with orbital lasers in rts.
>>727634395>Muh high level players are ruining the multiplayer for mePlay a fucking team game or casual lobby you obnoxious shitter instead of joining the competitive ladder and crying about people trying to play to the best of their abilities
>>727634569Magic the gathering. Can I ask how far are we both allowed to move the goalposts?
>>727634365focus on multiplayer isn't the problem people claim it is. bar is popular and it doesn't even have a campaign. a good game will be popular because it's fun to play. a shit game will never be popular because no one wants to play it.
>>727634694>Play a fucking team game or casual lobby you obnoxious shitter instead of joining the competitive ladder and crying about people trying to play to the best of their abilitiesHmmm yes, let me just hop into the game browser or better, just create my own server with games runnig.... OH WAIT YOU NIGGER, that has not been a thing in the majority of games for years now.PRESS THAT QUE BUTTON AND EAT THE RANKED SLOP.
>>727634395>lose games to better players>elo drops>now you only have to play against people who are as slow as youyour problem is only a problem for like 10 games
>>727634859>bar is popularBrother. Its fine. Bar is relatively popular in its very small niche. The best numbers I can find say it has 2k concurrent daily players. Or 9 month info where a dev is saying they got a daily peak of 2.9k!!!Its great for a niche game, but lets not pretend that its some sort of runaway success.
>>727634860It literally is a thing in AoE2, the game you were crying about. Same with WC3, SC1/2, DoW, etc.
>>727634690>most of the community does not care for MP or any kind of competitive gameplay, they might watch it, but they don't care about playing it.The is correct: MMR is scary and disheartening."But get over it!" the sweaty multiplayers will say. "No," the majority will reply.>Is an ION canon balanced? Fuck no, but I loved absolutely demolishing enemies with orbital lasers in rts.Based fun-haver.howdoiturnthison>>727634694Many games do not make a distinction between casual and ranked multiplayer. Many people don't care if it's casual or ranked, they would rather just play against AI because a computer is easier to "game" than a person. Even now, though, you're proving my point. I claimed the disparity was irreconcilable and you're replying "they're playing the game wrong," right on cue.>>727635078Losing doesn't feel good, and plenty of losses can be truly demoralizing. I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong about how they feel here, I am merely explaining how they feel.
>>727635078>lose games to better players>elo drops>now you only have to play against people who are as slow as youLet me correct this.>now you only have to play against people who are as slow as you and smurfsShow me a RTS game with ranked mode without smurfs and I will show you a liar. Just give me the ability to create my own servers.
>>727633142Stormgate was good but the story and art direction was fucking uninspired marvel garbage. It's sad because it does feel good to play and had a lot of really cool stuff going on. The deamon faction was great.
>>727635123look all I know is that half of every /v/ rts thread is people shilling that game while the other half is people complaining that the games with the most single player content are too gookclick for them. I'm starting to suspect that the majority of rts whiners are just c&c players asshurt that ea killed their series.
>>727628931Greed, as always.
>>727628931It’s an inherently bad genre
>>727635239Smurfs are indeed the pinnacle of "no one can have nice things; I am the only one allowed to have fun." If "good" players stuck to their own ELO, then all might be well, but a natural-1500 ELO player can do absolutely diabolical things to a natural sub-100 ELO player.
>>727628931infinite skill ceiling burns people out
>>727628931>we want the moba audience
>>727635216you only have to lose a handful of games and then you can start winning again. people aren't mad because they're losing, they're mad because the game told them they suck.>>727635239people raging at mp aren't just complaining about smurfs, they hate the whole idea of playing competitively
>>727629364kys retard
>>727632735robots fighting each other is soulless
>>727628931Skill ceiling and floor too high.
>>727628931esport killed the RTS genre. I miss the comfy lan parties with Anno, Settlers, Sudden Strike and Age of Empires.
>>727629301ture. but I would also point that RTS were fit for a certain computers and internet speed.now they are too slow, and if they don't are slow they somehow faiul, because all becomes adrenalin filled zerg rushes.
>>727634449It has both>sim city manPlay the raptors mode
could you make a PVP game mode where people don't feel like they are commiting as much, like how in hero shooters you can blame your teammates, you need something like this to capture the casual market
>>727636136>Axis Vs AlliesBlame the Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys (French) when you lose (regardless of side)
When I was a kid I used to play Generals all the time doing skirmish matches making like 40 nukes and blowing up the enemy base. Now I’m too autistic and can’t enjoy things. When I played the original Command and Conquer I realized attack helicopters were OP against AI and can blow up their command center early to get an easy win.
>>727635403>I'm starting to suspect that the majority of rts whiners are just c&c players asshurt that ea killed their series.I mean... you are not wrong.
>>727629301>only relevant RTSs have multiplayer
>>727628931Too difficult for the modern audience.
>genre die because.... there are better players than me?What kind of autism is this?
>>72763507810 games is enough for most people to drop it permanently you fucking idiot.
>>727636376yes brother starcraft was such a hit because people loved playing it online their dialup
>>727636506Lack of father figures teaching young dudes how to process their negative emotions.
>>727635078>your problem is only a problem for like 10 gamesHmmm>it gets better after 5 hours, I swearThis is not exactly the best selling pitch you realize that right?
>>727634781hide your defensive twitter lingo back in your prison wallet and tell me is that how you define "mainstream"?
>>727635860Esport in rts existed since sc1 tho (it literally created "esport") and it never existed in rts games other than sc/wc/aoe2nothing is stopping you from playing aoe2 lan parties, I play it casually with friends to this day and it has more content than it ever had. You just don't fucking care, everyone screeching about esport in rts is just mad that they got their shit pushed in in competitive multiplayer
>>727636546What is even your pointBoth sc1 and 2 had both fleshed out single player and multiplayer modes. There was never a shift of priorities that killed the genre because they stopped caring about singleplayerfags
Call to Arms; Gates of Hell is quite kino.
>>727636731Ah yes, the first move, as expected. 9k stable playerbase is not popular enough. Btw this is also only the arena client, it does not account for MTG online, which is its own client not on steam.Can you just tell me in advance what the daily player base has to be to count as "mainstream".
why do people smurf / sockpuppet accounts on RTS?
>>727634569Uh... sports games? Do you think every negro on your team is controlled by another player in NBA 2K? All those games are 1v1.
>>727637127Because they want to have easy wins.
>>727630616Probably because AoE2 never died and the rest got remasters. Hard to compete with the originals.
>>727637127Losing makes people upset so they kick the ladder down instead of suffering through the rest of the climb to the peak.
I stopped buying RTS when they moved to 3d modelsIt went from feeling like a bird's eye view in war to playing with toys
>>727629364It "put it on the map" by signaling that you should stop producing it?Nobody was falling for the "wow killer" scheme anymore.
>>727636506>implying that didn't happen to arena FPS too
>>727637461>Lose>Number go down>Win >Number go up>Lose, Lose, Win>Lose, Lose, WinStarts to feel fake and gay when every X'th opponent is a skillcheck / guaranteed loss. Never played much but I remember being discouraged from ever playing W3 because of this and just stuck to custom games.
>>727637592age of empires 2 is still alivequake live and quake champions are barely alive
>>727629364>Nobody played them beforeRetard
>>727637714What's wrong with skill checks? If you lost because you didn't do X thing in response to the opponent's push, then that's the thing you practice next game. Losing is educational.
>>727637120if you ever wondered why people dont want to talk to you then let me tell you that its your tone.you sound like an insufferable bitch.but going back to the topic at hand, using your logic is sc2 is still mainstream game for having 100-150k daily unique players with around 20-25k daily peak across servers?does it feel like its mainstream and popular according to your interpretation?
>>727635403Honestly I always thought CnC sucked. Generals was the only good one and most consider it the best so.
Thinking of making a Christmas mod for Tiberian sun bros
RTS never grew up into the live wargames they promised to be. >this one tank represents an entire division of tanks just use your imagination>this dozen footmen fighting eight grunts is totally an epic battle>these 16 buildings are totally the planetary capital of a vast interstellar empireToo much gay abstraction. The best RTS out there were games that deliberately were squad/platoon level RTS that actually got that scale right.
>>727637982I hate the upkeep system. You need to ONLY have an army when you're using it otherwise your economy goes to shit and you're wasting resources and won't be able to earn enough in order to rebuild your army until after your army has already been wiped out.
>>727637061It is, I would love to see a Call to Arms 40k game
>>727638042>but going back to the topic at hand, using your logic is sc2 is still mainstream game for having 100-150k daily unique players with around 20-25k daily peak across serversI mean, yes. SC by all means is a mainstream game. Still has an active tournament scene, multiple large ones every year. Even if you pulled out the numbers out of your ass as blizz actually refuses to show us the numbers. Or do you want to move the goalposts so far that the only games considered mainstream are the top 10 games with most actives players?
>>727638358I mean yeah, the decision making created by balancing resource upkeep and unit production is one of the few things that make RTS a vaguely strategic genre. Should you rush units for an early win? When are you allowed to expand to new resource fields? Can you scout the enemy's base to figure out the timing of their attack? All of these considerations come from the fact that you have to build workers and not just spam units and buildings.
>>727628931It's alive. There is a number of new RTS games that are close to release or are still in production.>>727629364E-sports are why RTS games are now in such a shitty position.
>>727632215>all of the micromanaging buttons are the same WASD1234 like very other game.
>>727638358good thing most rts games don't have an upkeep system.
>>727628931Games became COH clones fuck your COH clones.
>>727628931>Why did RTS genre die?Because they took the retared pill and used Starcraft as a bluprint and ignored the most important part of warfare: chain of command.Hopefully Microprose will fix this gay genre with Staretegos, just like they always do.
>>727628931Flynn effect reversed because browns have taken over global population statistics.
>>727628931>Build units>Assign to command group>4/5ths die>Now useless command group>Re assign command group>It's wiped out>Re assign command group"Ctrl+Dicking around" isn't fun when you need to constantly redo it on the fly to maintain control of your units. >>727638835Ya, I'm glad W3 is the only one I've played with one. It's the only thing I outright hate about it.
>>727629301I doubt it. The MP obsession came from the fact that the MP crowd actually played the games. If the SP campaigns were absolute money printers you can bet your ass they'd still be pumping RTS games out constantly, but that's clearly not the case and the campaign players don't stick around. That's why devs catered to MP more and more, because the MP & e-sports segments were the most popular.
>>727628931Die how? Falling Frontier and Dust Force look like pure sex
>>727638664>>727638664>Even if you pulled out the numbers out of your ass as blizz actually refuses to show us the numbers.literally first google search result under "sc2 active playerbase". last available data from march 2025>>727638664>Or do you want to move the goalposts so far that the only games considered mainstream are the top 10 games with most actives players?like ive said before, you are so used to twitter language you can no longer have normal conversation. in no place i even pointed at any goalpost and all i did was trying to figure out where you think the goalpost is to have a discussion around that.have a nice day and enjoy your shitposting.
>>727639089>play BAR>alt+number permanently assigns unit type to a control group, persistent between matches
>>727637127Probably so they can win without tryharding.
>>727628931It's as dead as FPS genre. Games still come out, some fail, some do well.
>>727639338Sounds dank, I'll have to check it out. Is there a way to assign X of one unit and Y of another to a single command group like that? Like 2 tanks and 2 jeeps?
>>727639529counter strike 2 is the most popular game on steamfps games are not dead at all
>>727639183>games that haven't released yet are pure sexyou're a nigger retard and I want to gun you down in the street like the worthless monkey-brained faggot asshole that you are
>>727639629fps is dead
>>727628931>diethat's weird, I'm still playing RTS with people several times per week
>>727639629>counter strike 2 is the most popular game on steamFPS are indeed dead af
>>727628931Who keeps making this thread?
>>727628931Daily reminder that shitskins cannot into strategic thinking.
>>727639124You don't get more money from a single person playing your game for 10000 hours.
>>727639718Sorry granpa but we are talking about the future of RTS not te past.
Starcraft and blizzdrones tried their best to kill it off, but they lost in the end
>>727639970People who want to talk about RTS and know that positive threads on /v/ die within 10 replies.
>>727640003You do when that person sticks around to buy your expansions and DLCs, because he actually cares about the game and plays it regularly. Where are all the campaign RTS games, if they're so profitable? Why are the only remaining active games focused on MP? Where have all the storyfags gone to, presuming they existed in the first place?
>>727628931We've been over this, and the answer is the same no matter how many times you make the thread - the RTS market got cannibalized by MOBAs which, although have the potential to be as deep as an RTS, are far more accessible and beginner friendly since you only have to control a single unit. This makes MOBAs more attractive to people who might be intimidated by the steep learning curve of having to micro and macro in an RTS. This all happened right around the launch of Starcraft 2, which in hindsight was the tipping point in the RTS/MOBA battle. SC2 ended up being a good game, but it wasn't good enough to save RTS. If SC2 had been better than Brood War, there's a chance it could have ridden the newly emerging esports scene and saved RTS, but in the end, it just wasn't good enough and other games like League and Dota2 captured the market.
I think a lot of people don't enjoy competitive multiplayer in certain genres because those genres revolve around trying to eliminate the opponent's options and agency. Games have to be fun even when you're not winning, because otherwise there's no incentive to play. Ingame ranks and scores are meaningless and skill largely consists of game-specific knowledge that can't be applied to anything else.
>>727632735Looks neat, will check out. Thanks anon.
Is this true, /v/?
>>727644763Yes, and someone in the thread was already able to articulate this point succinctly without referencing their favorite gay e-celeb.
>>727642834The campaign player buys those too, retard.
>>727628931because they havent buffed handcannoneers enough
>>727628931Because corpo devs are risk-averse and thus incapable of making anything other than an inferior version of WC3 or control point slop.
>>727649064If I see this fucking hand cannoneer one more time...
>>727649367what will you do
>>727649464
>>727649537AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHMY WORST NIGHTMARE
>>727647395Uh huh, yeah, totally. What actually happens is that the people who are only interested to consume the content in the game are going to do exactly that and then completely put that game they played for 10h out of their mind as they move on to something else. 1 or 2 years later when more content is released, lots of them don't even know shit is releasing or have simply moved on and no longer give a fuck.Meanwhile the people playing MP who actively engage with the game for years are much more likely not only to keep an eye out on new releases but to also buy them because they enhance a game they play all the time.>>727644115That's basically every genre. If you're getting owned in a fighting game you just get combo'd and wrecked, don't even know how to fight back or what is happening. If it's a shooter you just get headshot or ruined on map knowledge / angles / pickup spawns. If it's an RTS you probably get harassed and shut down before you can do much. If it's a MOBA you get ganked & farmed & go 0-12 & you rage and lose. What competitive genre isn't like this? This isn't a genre problem, it's more of a skill gap problem if the opponent is far better than you are.
>>727628931The true answer ist, RTS is not playable on console.
>>727639338Yeah that's one of the QoL stuff that makes BAR mog everyone else, along with right click drag to do formations
>>727636506The fighting game genre kind
>>727632735>>727632956>>727632960>>727633257>>727633337>>727633390>>727633460>>727634449BARbros unite
This isn't an original take but Starcraft 2 kinda perfected the genre, makes it really hard for any new RTS to take hold. The convenience features are really nice and the unit movement/pathfinding is crazy good, haven't seen anything top it.
>>727628931It's too hard for modern gamers. The new generation of players are just too dumb, unskilled and slow for RTSAnd the old one is too old to play games
>>727628931Because Blizzard was the only one making good RTS games and they stopped because of WoW.
>>727651045>Total annihilation clone #468
>>727650984You have no idea what convenience is if you think SC2 is convenient.
>>727650984>he convenience features are really nice and the unit movement/pathfinding is crazy good, haven't seen anything top it.jesus you need to play more games
>>727651176Its a remake/sequel tho
>>727649994There is a very fundamental difference between fighting games, FPS, and RTS and the difference is that what you do to get gud at an RTS is not intuitive from casual levels of play. It's just not.
>>727651295Please, enlighten me. Last RTS I tried was the newest AOE game. Felt clunky as shit.
>>727634694cringe
a genre lives on its ability to attract new playersthe 90s and 00s were a good time to try new things out since there wasn't really much choice in what you could play and what was available, you could just make good game and it would attract plenty of new playersoutside of starcraft, RTS games never attract new players, just people who already played them before, and so eventually it died out as that audience aged out of vidya entirelyit is critical to attract kids to your game, since they are the largest demographic of vidya consumer and have many years of gaming consumption left in themthis generation is too busy playing other, more popular games with their friends that are much easier to get intowhy should devs waste the effort making a product that doesn't sellit's not coming back
>>727651449its extremely intuitive, its mostly just hand speed training and learning timings by getting rolled over for not being prepared or scoutingunless you are talking about some real low level players, like never even played casual unranked mp
>>727652198>learning timingsYou agree with me you're just too stuck in the sauce to understand you agree with me.
>>727628931They were made obsolete by Mobas, their sexier and more accessible cousin.
>>727652293idk man it really doesn't take much experience to learn how early attacks can come or when you need to be ready for certain power spike unitsif you just play the game, you figure it out... seriouslyrts are way less complicated than dota in terms of strategy and that game is enjoyed by tons of retarded south american monkeys and kids loved itthe hard part of rts is not learning anything, its being biologically capable of multitasking and moving your hands fastwhich is kinda rare
>>7276289311. In the late 90s to early 2000s, they couldn't make use of quickly developing 3D graphics to fundamentally change their genre. This caused a cascading effect where RTS games were not used to market new hardware/consoles, and thus were talked about less and less in the gaming media, resulting in them falling out of the general gamer mindshare.2. RTS games are simply not good to play on a console controller, and consoles were absolutely a huge part of the mainstream growth of games. Devs/publishers didn't invest into a genre that had no prospects in this new market.3. RTS games have a very slow, time consuming gameplay format, and the general gaming trend was always going towards smaller sessions of easily accessible gaming.These are not faults or failures of RTS games per se, but they were simply not what the majority of mainstream gamers wanted from games. And that's why RTS games didn't become popular in the mainstream, which is what we sometimes call "dying out".
>>727653918depressing trvke
>>727629364>Esports put RTS on the mapesports killed rts as a genre fucking zoomzoomstudios chased the dragon that was starcraft with its success in korea and it killed the genre
>>727653059You're wrong.
>>727651449Getting gud at fighting games is also fundamentally unintuitive, how do you "intuitively" figure out exactly what combos together, what openings you can exploit in each character's moves and so on? This shit often relies on crap like frame data and entirely opaque mechanics that require dedicated analysis and extended practice to grasp.If anything, RTS is more intuitive at a fundamental level. Get more resources. Make enough production to use your resources. Make a bigger army. Defend your weak points, exploit the enemy's. Find out what the enemy is doing. After that there's a lot of potential subtlety and things that are hard to grasp intuitively but the basics should be pretty obvious.>>727651938>they are the largest demographic of vidya consumerThey are not and have not been for a long, long time. The average age of a gamer is like 35.
>>727654780you are the zoomer. literally no one outside korea and a few fans on teamliquid cared about eat sports until sc2. that was in 2010 and rts had already been in decline for years before then. age of empires 3 was poorly received when it came out in 2005 and then ensemble got bought out by microsoft and forced to make halo wars for the xbox and westwood got murdered by ea. none of that had anything to do with eat sports. if you were actually alive for it you would remember that the mid to late 2000s was a fucking miserable time to be a pc gaymer.
>>727628931No appeal to normies, or >>727629301Back when the only gamers were people who actually enjoy videogames, you could get away with games that require some kind of intelligence. Now, the average "gamer" has an IQ of 95 at most and they don't know a single game beyond Cawadoody or Legend League. At BEST you get the steamernormie that also knows Peak or Lethal Company. If you approach the average gamer and ask them if they played Arx Fatalis or Arcanum or Jack and Daxter they'll think you just cursed their lineage with your magic words.
>>727653918you are wrong>1. In the late 90s to early 2000s, they couldn't make use of quickly developing 3D graphics to fundamentally change their genre. This caused a cascading effect where RTS games were not used to market new hardware/consoles, and thus were talked about less and less in the gaming media, resulting in them falling out of the general gamer mindshare.late 90s to mid 2000s was exactly when RTS reached peak popularity, starcraft and warcraft 3 were insanely successful games>2. RTS games are simply not good to play on a console controller, and consoles were absolutely a huge part of the mainstream growth of games. Devs/publishers didn't invest into a genre that had no prospects in this new market.it is true that RTS does not work on console, but the same applies to plenty of other games too. games like world of warcraft, counterstrike, league and dota are all PC exclusive and they were (and still are) some of the most successful games ever made.>3. RTS games have a very slow, time consuming gameplay format, and the general gaming trend was always going towards smaller sessions of easily accessible gaming.again implying that casual consolebabbies are the entire market, when that's just not the case. games like wow and league and dota are notorious for being extremely time consuming, much more than any RTS ever was, and they became massive success stories despite (or, arguably, because) of it. >>727653059>the hard part of rts is not learning anything, its being biologically capable of multitasking and moving your hands fastyes the multitasking is the main difficulty. strategy and knowledge are actually pretty easy, but keeping track of a bazillion things at the same time really overwhelms your brain, and even if you can manage it it makes the games very exhausting to play.
>>727656412>league and dota are all PC exclusive and they were (and still are) some of the most successful games ever made.I believe League is the most played game worldwide, or was for a while, much to my displeasure
>>727655670learning fighting games is like 80% mechanics (how much time are you willing to grind out in training mode) and the rest is researching game knowledge and having good reaction speed.learning RTS is much less about mechanics, it's like 80% multitasking ability 20% game knowledge.they're not very comparable. having played both i'd argue that RTS is a bit easier to pick up at the complete beginner level (like singleplayer and co-op with friends) but if you want to play and win against human players then fighting games are easier to learn.
It didn't
>>727628931Because it's a solved genre.There is little to no meaningful difference between RTS across the 90s through to the early 2010s where it plummeted in popularity.
>>727630202>E-sports didn't even start in 2010
>>727657009Read the whole post you drunk bastard.
>>727655670Training combos is in fact very intuitive. Frame data isn't, but you don't actually need to know frame data to get gud.
>>727656790>it's like 80% multitasking abilityThat's mostly mechanics, as in the multitasking gets turned into muscle memory because most of the things you need to multitask frequently are things like making workers / managing economy, producing army and so on. In more modern RTS games these things can basically just be handled via hotkeys and some properly placed rally points. Multitasking as in splitting your army into 5 attack groups all in different parts of the map and shit is far more advanced than what most people ever reach and if you try something fancy at "lower" levels (as in, still far better than average) you're more likely to get rolled over by the other guy playing more conventionally. Even this sort of multi-tasking is extremely mechanics-oriented because what you actually need to learn is how to control different sets of units very quickly.>grind out in training modeThe fact that grinding in training mode is even something people commonly do at all should tell you how unintuitive that shit is. In RTS nobody will ever tell you to grind against the AI beyond the very introduction point where one can assume you've never played RTS before and have literally no idea how the game works.
>>727628931people couldn't stand the fact that losing in 1v1 was their own fault so they migrated to games like LoL and DotA where they can blame the loss on others
>>727656412Congratulations, you missed the point. I didn't say that RTS games weren't popular at the time, but that they had nowhere to go and couldn't bedazzle players or grab media attention like other genres could. Mario made the leap into 3D with 64, and it was a revolution, a whole new definition of platforming games. What changed in gameplay between Warcraft II and Warcraft III? What has changed in 30 years between the early RTS games, and the ones coming out today like BAR? You're still in top-down god view, clicking on buildings and units, and clicking them over to the enemy's units to kill them. As I said in my last email, this sticking to genre conventions is not a failure of RTS games in itself, but the genre just never had that revolution or expansion that many others did. The RTS genre simply happened to be unfortunately rigid and unable to go through a major change without losing its core appeal. Compare it to fighting games, which suffered a relatively similar trajectory and fate.Casual appeal and interest totally matter, because otherwise you are a niche, which RTS games certainly are. That is the very reason why were are having this discussion of "why did RTS games die?".
A lot of these posts answer the question right away. RTS games are just too sweaty. Meta is a massive component of playing an RTS, there is a correct order of operations that has to be done in an efficient and timely manner to participate at even the casual level. It's a very tall skill floor. If the game can be better played by an algorithm, or the first twenty minutes of a match are exactly the same order of operations to avoid the initial zerg rush then most matches are boring for the average gamer. It's not that different from speedrunning in the kind of attitude it takes to be good at it.
>>727658721you are sort of right but not for the reason you think you are. 3d was considered super amazing for mario 64 because it was a marketing point for that generation of consoles. there were plenty of early 3d games for pc that impressed people, but didn't have magazines calling them revolutionary. the actual reason rts died out is because they didn't survive the dark ages of the 2000s where every pc dev was selling out to consoles.
>>727658927it's not a skill floor. watch low elo replays from basically any game. at the bottom of dirt league you're playing against literal retards and children. you don't have to play meta or tryhard, you just can't expect to win against people who are.
>>727650979Was the explosion so powerful it took out the aircraft overhead? That's neat.
>>727628931because it was 1v11v1s are not fun because they are too stressful because you have nobody to blame or rely on1v1s are extremely predictable raw cognitive stat checks, very boring10v10s are fun because of the chaoschaos = fun1v1 = stable, better player always winsXvX - 5v5, 10v10, 20v20, 40v40 = chaotic, unpredictable, much more appealing to casual playersmost gamers are casualscasuals don't want to put effort into gamingcasuals don't play 1v1 games because they require effort to wincasuals play high playercount matches because they require less effort to win and are more luck-based due to matchmaking systemsthis is the truthmake a team-based RTS and watch the genre revive
>>727659958We have that, it's called BAR and it's metashit in 8v8.
>>727660010outdated developersgive the idea to a competent studio and watch it blow up
>>727642834>Where are all the campaign RTS games, if they're so profitable?They Are Billions, Age of Darkness, Starship Troopers Terran Command, Terminator Dark Fate Defiance, Last Train Home, Dust Front, Empires of the Undergrowth, Tempest Rising (big campaign though it has MP)Ready those goalposts lads
>>727650979>>727651045While I do appreciate BAR intellectually I do not like it the way I like supreme commander. I think its the way pathfinding makes units turn into amorphous blobs of guns. Same issue as supreme commander 2 in a way.
>>727661101Tempest Rising despite having a "official release" still feels like it's missing bits, and the developers have been diligent enough to add extras to it. The alien 3rd faction is about to be released as well as super weapons for the GDF and Dynasty. It's almost there to being great, but right now it's just good enough.
>>727661169For me it's difficult to play supcom now because it doesn't let you hand draw unit formations the same way BAR does.
>>727661504BAR did have a lot of nifty features like that, but I'm not sure if I actually like them. There's something aesthetic about a good old fashioned tank column.
>>727661101>all less successful than AoE4, which is played for MPwow, look at that, it's exactly like I said it was
>>727628931bump
>>727628931it's boring to watch and play
you have no excuse to not play BAR btw
>>727665667i play zero k. The man's words echoed across the desolate valleys as he disappeared into the sunset, until even his flowing cape was only a mote on God's Eye.
>>727628931Personally, my opinion is that MOBA and the auto-battlers replaced them.RTS has an insane skill cap and they are much harder to play casually, because you're in charge of so many things.t. Someone who has played Dune 2 on release
>>727628931It's a hard genre to monetize, can't sell coom skins like most mobas
>>727665746Respectable.
>>727665935You know, this might be closer to the truth than anything else posted in this thread. Where are the coomer RTS games? The RTS gacha with waifu commanders?
you can't pirate them and play the multiplayer anymorethat's how it died
>>727665935>It's a hard genre to monetizeStrategy players have the money, its just that they want actual gameplay instead of looking pretty lady on bikinis
>>727666257The implication is that making actual expansions and not cosmetics would require effort on their part, and that is very antisemitic towards the shareholders.
>>727666110>>727659958>40v40 or battle royale coomer RTS you might be on to something anon
>>727666110i know nobody else would buy it but i'd love a CoH-style Valkyria Chronicles game.
Is tempest rising worth it just to play the campaign?
>>727666417We just need a Fire Emblem RTS spinoff. It's the most logical series to make the attempt.
>>727628931Another reason RTS died is because people stopped thinking turn based was outdated and they started making them again
>>727666110The camera is so far away in RTS games that it wouldn't be very appealing. In fact I'm pretty sure that's why RTS games fell out of favor except for diehards. You're so far away from the action that it's less exciting than something that's on the ground, over-the-shoulder.
>>727666512I feel like Dawn of War hit a good middle ground in terms of camera height vs. unit size.
>>727666512You can still stuff coomer in >unit portraits >voice lines when you select the unit >skimpy outfits>death/battle noises are little moans
>>727666512just put a cute icon over their heads in battle and add a lounge room
>>727628931not accessible enough, mobas essentially killed it
Can someone tell me how a game like manorlords isn't a rts?Base buildingBuilding unitsMaking units fightResources and shitIs real timeHas strategy
>>727667072Same reason Ceasar isn't a RTS.
>>727667072People don't usually consider city builders to be RTS even if they've got combat. Even a game like Black and White 2 is technically an RTS by the same metric
>>727666448Yes, but be prepared for some 30+ minute long missions where objectives keep changing pretty regularly. Campaign specific upgrades mean you can change up your approach but you have to complete side objectives to unlock the resource to use the upgrades.
>>727634694Competitive gameplay just isn't fun in most RTS. Everything from the CnC or SC school of design is frankly abysmal but the others are only mildly better. It all comes down to playing fast with almost no strategy. Certainly very little thinking, just executing some basic strategies that typically result in a quick and decisive victory, and never a back and forth protracted conflict.
>>727666835>>727666864In order for it to work, it'd have to be a really stripped down game. You definitely wouldn't be able to have a 4x style, so it'd be closer to an autobattler or line wars or something.
>>727628931EA
>>727667509You could just make it something like WC3 with its heroes, or even Dawn of War 2 Retribution. Just something with a smaller unit count, a closer zoom and a more intimate focus on micro.
>>727628931RTS peaked in the late 90s, nobody has made a good one since
>>727628931Only Koreans play them and they abandoned the genre for League of Legends.
>>727637061Can I fight as the good guys?
what the fuck
>>727667176What's a city builder with combat if not an rts just with more complex build orders and resource management
>>727670465That picture shows the good guys, are you stupid?
No pve coop RTS, don't care. I'm a dad gamer now.
>>727671984Stormgate's absolute failure was disappointing to me because the co-op mode was the one thing that caught my interest.
>>727661101
>>727632735if i like spamming marine+medic in broodwar, or regular guys with rifles and AT launchers in other RTT/RTS, what faction/type of bot would i like to play?assuming that i'll ever play it since i prefer humans over robots
>>727632735Shame the community is really cancerous. Looks nice at first but it's just a front of toxic positivity.
>>727674946Just pick any faction, make a bot lab, and order a bunch of resurrector bots to follow and repair your cheap units.
>>727675050Not him, but is it? I don't pay attention to their discord or whatever.
>>727675252Only a problem when you play +25OS lobbies. Those lobbies are full of people who only play a specific map for thousands of games and start frothing at the mouth the moment something goes wrong. In a sense it's like MOBA.
>>727628931RTS fractured in a bunch of niches and the traditional competitive RTS is only one of them. Some people wanted more realism, others more economy and base building, others more strategy than tactics, others more history. The player base is spread between gsg, city builders, simulations, management game an so on. RTS was the entry point for most of them, but always was frustrating in one way or the other.That is why it stagnated.
Real reason? Because it requires too much multitasking. Having to micro dozens of units while at the same time dealing with base construction and economy is just not fun for most people. That's why successful strategy games moved towards higher levels of abstraction with grand strategy or 3x, while the micro aspect split off into MOBA type games.The only way an RTS could work in the current day is if it leaned more heavily into the RPG aspect and drastically reduced the number of controllable unitsSo the real answer is that the RTS genre itself is fundamentally not that good of a design, even thought it makes for a good esport
>>727675398Yeah, Supreme Isthmus and Glitters 24/7 lobbies are full of easily triggered faggots who spam ping every minor setback.
>>727638069do it
RTS sucks because you have to be good at doing the actions quickly to even begin playing the game. I'd rather just play chess or go or something
>>727675486Do you think RTS would be more popular if they made one for normies where Team Melee was the default game mode?
TibSun >>>>>> RA2
mythology players, your toughts about custom "scenario" maps in mp?totally unbalanced, but fun.
>>727628931because it successfully gatekept itself.
>>727632735Third faction fully released when?
>>727676143They just made Legion navy playable, so soon maybe?
>>727635505I play uni2 and I love smurfs, they want to punch up to the highest tiers from the bottom rank as if to send a message but they all end underdelivering, I'm not particularly good at the game but I end up turning the joke back on them, I get the grandest laughs when those fuckers ragequit and start dodging me in matchmaking
>>727628931They got broken up into subgenres that people just like to play more.
>>727675778TibSun has great atmosphere, but the maps are either desert or snowy plains...and nothing else. RA2 has a lot of variation to map tiles and the sprite work is generally better overall, but I just like rolling over Nod with an army of walkers.
One of the gayest times of my life was pretending I cared about Starcraft. Quake is better.
there is zero way anyone will believe this but my ex boyfriend who is a furry sucked this guys dick, supposedly the inside of his house was filthy and covered with ferret droppings,
>>727644763>>727678234fucking reply fail
>>727633539It's boring because landcucks don't want to be anally raped by offshore bombardments. It's real fun to nuke a t2 20k army in half a minute with six batteships, which you could in TA. But landcucks don't like being bulled so navy is nerfed into irrelevance.
>>727655670>They are not and have not been for a long, long time. The average age of a gamer is like 35.That's because gaming is too expensive. Kids are dumb, they will take an interest to whatever is aggressively marketed to them if they can actually afford it.
>>727677595based
>>727667784Warlords Battle Cry 1-3, Empire Earth, Rise of Nations, Warcraft 3, Tzar: The Burden of the Crown, Supreme Commander, The Lord of the Rings: The Battle for Middle-earth II
>>727632735Come back to me once you can actually distinguish cortex and armada units between each other on a black and white screenshot
>>727651451Zero-k. It is free.
>>727628931Because of fucking base building. No one cares about it unless it’s a tower defense game or something that actually feels like it matters, like persistent progress. God damn, I despise base building and economic management in RTS games it’s just a hindrance to the fun part, which is the battle. Why can’t RTS games just give me pure hunga bunga combat? I want to dodge your barrage of catapults. I want to manage multiple units placed in different parts of the map simultaneously. I want to show off superior unit positioning and tactics to win the battle, even if my opponent has more unitsLiterally, the fun part of RTS is the battle, that’s the thing that matters in games where your progress resets after each match. Why do you need to do a fucking ritual chore that could literally be scripted in the game? Why do they insist this is so important? Why do they repeat the same fucking formula that’s so boring, and then ask, "Why doesn't anyone play our genre anymore?"
>>727630202yeah, nobody, outside of korea, is watching broodwar circa '03
>>727629364what a fucking retard, RTS literally created esports
>>727628931Because the genre peaked in 2003 and hasnt been surpassed since.
>>727681968Of those, the LotR one is probably the most dead thanks to a bunch of copyright shit that makes it incredibly unlikely that it will be able to be resold by EA or anyone else forever.
multiplayer
>>727629301Fpbp there was no need for the eSports shit and it killed the game design side. Devs stopped making campaigns and stopped putting effort into worldbuilding or making the factions cool. Stormgate tier slop is all you get when you cater to compfags
>>727628931Because blizzard made the retarded decision to make any custom game made in their editor copyrighted.The lack of a robust editor that serves as an on ramp to game dev killed the genre.
>RTS game>zero focus on multiplayer and esports autism>is a very fun and challenging game with tons of replayabilityWe need more like this.
>>727628931Rewards autism, punishes gameplay.See also - fighting games, grand strategy, shooters.>>727629364die
>>727684097"Hero" units and unit abilities were the cancer that killed off RTS. You are not supposed to micro your units at 200 APM in a STRATEGY game.
>>727628931Because it already peaked with the likes of Rise of Nations, Age of Empires 2 etc.Nothing better has come out since.
>>727684483The campaign is kinda shit desu
>>727684809TrueBut the survival mode is peak RTS experience. Especially on nightmare mode and no pause.
>>727684483This was boring as fuck what? >Every area is just 100k zombies and one mistake is all your progress. Like fuck there's only so much I can inch forward killing one zombie at a time before I get bored.
>>727666475That's just fantasy Original War.
