I don't even like Hollow Knight. But the whole discourse about runbacks reminded me that gaming culture is fucking dead and all people want is the most convenient possible entertainment slop. "Noooooo I already beat that part why should I have to do it again!" BECAUSE IT FORCES YOU TO GET GOOD AND NOT JUST DIE TO STUPID SHIT EVERY 5 SECONDS BECAUSE OF THE PUNISHMENT AND IT AIDS THE PACING OF THE GAME BY MAKING YOU ACTUALLY EXPERIENCE A LONGER STRETCH RATHER THAN CHOPPED UP FUCKING CHECKPOINT SEGMENTS THAT LAST A FEW SECONDS YOU FUCKING RETARD. YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO NEVER PLAY A SECTION OF A GAME YOU BEAT EVER AGAIN JUST BECAUSE YOU BEAT IT ONCE. NOT EVERY LE EPIN HARD GAME NEEDS TO BE A CELESTE OR SUPER MEAT BOY CLONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It actually fucking makes me sick how seemingly none of these game "critic" types other than Matthewmatosis actually sit down and take 5 fucking seconds to think about shit like this. It's always just "OHHHH MORE QOL = MORE GOOD! LIKE AND SUSBCRIBE!"
>>727758640i downloaded a debug mod on nexus to use savestates kek
>>727758816Why not enable god mode and one hit kills while you're at you cheating fuck?
>>727758640Yeah no runbacks are tedious bullshitRESPECT MY TIME OR FUCK OFF
>>727758874how'd you think ive beaten at least 1/3rd of the bosses?
>>727759001Video games are an art form. They do not have to respect your bullshit worthless wagie fucking time. You respect its design. It doesn't exist to give you dopamine after le hard day at work. You either beat it, or you don't. The latter IS an option.
>>727758640The run back for the judge is easy though, long breaks between benches makes sense but if you are just going to put it one easy room before the boss you may as well just put it before the boss
>>727758640super meat boy and its consequences has been a disaster for vidya
>>727758640Its just for padding m8 so you can't refund their shit game.
So much ragebait or genuine retardation.I said jokingly silksong will be dark souls 2 of hollow-likes and it kinda turned true. People shit and and piss themselves when boss isnt right next to a bonfire.It takes 1, 2 deaths max to realize when to roll when to run and when to bait enemy attack and then roll in order to get to a boss. RUNBACK IS PART OF THE BOSS. Same goes for bilewater or whatever people have problems with.
>>727759090>You either beat it, or you don't. The latter IS an option.Yeah you're right I choose not to play this dogshit game
The run back in Dark Souls is functional. A bad player having to redo areas builds up souls. This increasingly incentivizes beating the part you died to, and means a bad player should end up with more souls and more levels to offset being bad. Furthermore Dark Souls main feature people love is the level design, you constantly open shortcuts so the run back isn't just doing everything again.Silksong provides nothing. Most run backs don't even have enemies in the path or they are easily avoided. The frog is not a difficult boss if you do it after getting cogflies and everything else. It's not blocking anything, there is no benefit to killing it. Similarly Last Judge doesn't have to be killed (at all?) though the alternative boss may be more difficult and has a similar run back.
>>727758640blablabla. Silksong's runbacks suck and I play games to have fun, not to be frustrated and miserable. Older games weren't designed like Silksong. Old games had friction and inconveniences, but they usually weren't intentionally trying to be as annoying as possible. This is a relatively modern design philosophy that only became popular after Dark Souls 1 and a bunch of losers made "I play difficult games" their entire personality. Also, a lot of design decisions in Silksong are clearly designed to farm viral streamer reactions and would never be in the game otherwise. Like the Bilewater bench trap.
>>727758640>gamer culturehave sex, incel
>>727758640Runbacks are only valid if the runbacks itself provides a challenge, simply wasting ones time running in one direction for a while in between deaths is for the unemployed. Make the bosses twice as hard, make them 20% faster, make me have to do a boss rush, I dont care, just don't waste my fucking time with what is effectively a loading screen
>>727759238Bro has never touched a classic action platformer
>>727759175Second games are always low effort money grabs. Half the time they are completely different games that got reskinned after another one was successful.
>>727759175>It takes 1, 2 deaths max to realize when to roll when to run and when to bait enemy attack and then roll in order to get to a boss. No it doesn't. Actual Hollow Knight speedrunners died multiple times on their first playthrough on difficult bosses. You aren't a better player at these games than the autists who spent the last 5 years doing no hit Godhome speedruns, so stop pretending that the game was easy for you.
>>727759391Yet both of these sequels completely surpass the original
It's not the run backs that suck, it's the bosses. 70+ hits is just absolutely retarded.
>>727758640>But the whole discourse about runbacks reminded me that gaming culture is fucking dead and all people want is the most convenient possible entertainment slopI didn't really mind the runbacks, but I think the point that you're missing is that they're set up just to be tedious rather than punishing in any meaningful way. The runbacks are littered with minor annoyances that slow you down for 0.2 of a second (3 seconds if you hit spikes) but just feel bad in a game that encourages you to go fast. There's no real challenge to it, no decisions to make about resources. At worst you lose your rosaries and have to tediously grind for a bit. It discourages exploration because you're heavily encouraged to go back and get said rosaries, and then are probably going to have another attempt at the boss again while you're there.It's just a bad fit. Trying to be Dark Souls makes Hollow Knight and Silksong worse, not better.
It's worse because you're already going to spend half the game running around having no clue where to go anyway. It takes like 3 minutes to go from one end of the map to the other.
>>727759383No, apparently you haven't. Classic platformers have nothing of the Silksong DNA. They were designed to be fun and beatable. The ones you probably are thinking of were remnants of the arcade era where the goal was to get kids to spend the most money at the arcade machine, so they had finite lifes and then you start again from the beginning. But once the home console became a widespread thing, the vast majority of popular platformers were designed to be fun, not frustratingly annoying and tedious. The annoyance in those games usually came from technical limitations and bugs, not intentional game design.
>>727759413I mean, aside from maybe a handful of other contrarians on /v/, you are literally one of the only people in the entire world that thinks that DS2 surpassed DS1.
>>727759570You have a retarded misconception about arcade games that most midwits of your caliber harborYou forget that arcade games had to both be hard AND fun to make any money. There are so many games on MAME that no one gave a shit about because they sucked.Go play fucking Ghouls 'n' Ghosts right now
>>727759661Count me in, too. DS2 is the best Souls game I've played.
>>727759570The kind of wholesome chungus design you're describing came about in the 5th gen arguably, 3rd and 4th, where the bulk of classic 2d games lie, were still in punishing mode. However the kind of punishing in a classic platformer and the kind in SS are two different beasts, I moreso take issue with the idea that classic platformers were these nice and easy romps and not even more annoying than SS which like makes you die a few times and takes your money away
Dying is NOT the part of ANY game, EVER. Because sitting out a loading screen after failing to adhere to artificial game design tricks is NOT fun. Elden Ring understands this depsite being one of the hardest videogames ever made.
>>727759885>Elden Ring>one of the hardest video games ever madeIf I could beat it, it's not one of the hardest video games ever made
>>727759885>Elden Ring understands this depsite being one of the hardest videogames ever made.LMAO lil nigga try this
>>727759870I never said classic platformers were nice and easy, I said they weren't intentionally designed to be as frustrating and annoying as possible and that a lot of the hardcore difficulty people remember about these games came from limitations in the game engines, hit boxes, bugs etc, rather than intentional game desing meant to frustrate the player.
>>727759715The Simpsons beat em up is shit but was popular because it's the fucking Simpsons. A lot of arcade games got by on their presentation back in the day which is ironic considering how gameplay elitist their fans are when in reality arcade games were the equivalent of movie games given their production values and the ability to just walts through them with extra credits
>>727760012>walts through them with extra creditsit is commonly understood that you didn't really beat the game if you use additional creditsin games that let you continue, it is used for practice to see more of the game earlier than you usually would. but you didn't beat metal slug if you just spammed 20 credits. you practiced metal slug
>>727760008>intentional game desing meant to frustrate the player.The game pulls like 2 pranks on the player, I can't think of what else is designed to fuck with the player. Meanwhile I was playing shatterhand the other day and half of the crates just have bombs in them to fuck with you, ghosts and goblins makes you play the game again with the shittiest weapon, castlevania and ninja gaiden are designed around fucking you over with knockback. Trollish design has always been a source of challenge.
>>727759412i meant for runbacks you illiterate jeetalso speedtrannies arent good and some sort of metric of how good someone is, they just practice a boss 500 times and go for the most efficient attacks so the boss cant even respondthese inbreds can't think for themselves unless someone on discord makes a strat for a boss with a 2min webm
>>727760094First of all, I have 1cc'd metal slug 1-3 so don't go preaching to me.Secondly, you're speaking from a very contemporary, retrospective mindset, back in the day most people didn't fucking care whether they "beat it" or got the highest score (at least in the west), it was just something to have some fun with
>>727760227Literally every enemy on the runback paths is designed to throw the player off and make it impossible to ever get into a proper flow state for the runbacks. The enemies are all so tanky and chaotic and needle upgrades are incredibly rare and hard to find. Flying enemies that shoot projectiles at you taking 6+ hits to die is just not fun. There used to be a meme enemy in Hollow Knight that every player hated, but in Silksong EVERY flying enemy is a primal apsid on steroids.
>>727758640I unironically think that if you filtered by the act1 in silksong, you must drop gaming as a hobby or stick strictly to a casual fendsloppa/gacha. I have enough shitters that ruining things I love, I do not need literal toddlers dismoraling game devs from putting any challenge in their game.That to be said, I still don't belive someone was REALLY filtered by red thingy platforming at the start of silksong and was REALLY so much a faggot to raise their voice and tell that it is too hard. I think it's all shitpost and agenda from terminally online.
>>727759661Everyone who played it with open mind loves it, either before the Youtube garbage started calling it shit or simply never forming an opinion because of strangers on the internet.Its toddlers who can't form an opinion of their own who call DS2 an abomination and yet praise such absolute trash of game design like DS3.
>>727760227No developer who worked on classic Castlevania or Ninja Gaiden thought to themselves "LMAO what if we make it so every time you get hit, there's a knockback effect that fucks you over?" They simply added the knockback because they thought it would help the player reposition and not get hit again immediately afterwards by the same enemy. Which had unintended consequences when you did get hit during platforming sections or when you get hit into enemies behind you etc. But it wasn't intentionally frustrating game design. They just didn't know any better at the time.
>>727759001If you going to a MUH TIME tantrum because of solksong runbacks, your time most likely has no fucking value, but you really want to show that it is. Game has one (1) annoying runback in bilewater, but that is just a "fuck you" zone overall and probably the hardest zone in the game
>>727760729Kek, you know DS2 is a stinker when you have to basically make the Star Wars prequel trilogy argument to make a case for it.
>>727760787>castlevania and ninja gaide There is absolutely zero chance they didn't intend the knockback to push you into spikes or pits sometimes. They would have to be retards to be completely oblivious to it, and it's clear some areas are designed that way on purpose.
>>727759570He's probably talking about Classicvanias and they made you do a whole segment before the boss and the entire fucking level over if you died enough times. Team Cherry grew up in that era, their runbacks are a fucking mercy.
>>727760012>walts through them with extra creditsThat's a more common thing in beat em ups or stgs but plenty of arcade platformers just use checkpoints so you can't credit feed through them.>>727760227>ghosts and goblins makes you play the game again with the shittiest weaponoriginal gng is an infinite loop game like gradius, in an arcade enviorement that's a very generous thing. Too generous and too hard too balance, that's why plenty of games, not just later gngs, limit loops to like 2. In the original cross/shield is an extremely safe weapon when fighting everything except the dragon boss. And in the sequels psycho cannon is far from the worst. You also don't need to use either until the penultimate boss.>>727760787>LMAO what if we make it so every time you get hit, there's a knockback effect that fucks you over?I mean, many if not most of them absolutely did think like that. And to reposition you only need i-frames. Even taking damage from bumping into enemies was a design choice and not a "technological limitation" like some nu-gamers/designers think.
>>727758640Bilewater runback is pure aids and I will never apologize for it.
>>727758640Just started Act 3, only tedious bs runback is Groal's at Bilewater, if it wasn't becuase I found the Wreath of Purity before that runback could have filter me.
>>727759718Even if it's a different voice in your head you are the same person.
>>727758640Sounds boring, I'd unironically rather watch a streamer instead if you insist on wasting my time.
>>727762141>Wreath of PurityLiterally top 10 anime betrayals tier item and position.
>>727759175>RUNBACK IS PART OF THE BOSSRunback is objectively bad game design, no modern game will ever get away with artificially padding the playtime that way ever again.
>>727758640retard nigger
>>727760787Old games knew to have iframes whenever the player took damage to prevent taking damage every frame from what should be 1 hit. It's one of the oldest most basic game designs.
I mean it's okay but original HK shits all over this slop
>>727762141Doesn't even help. You are going in the poison right leaving the save spot, again where you have to bounce off 4 different flies then again at the boss.
the vast vast majority of people aren't engaging with games from the perspective of some kind of autistic game dev who's thinking about the give and take of frustration and risk vs fun it's literally just like>i die in way i dont like>feel angry!>post on reddit
>>727758640>Tension is getting your balls busted by the devs constantly
>>727762753you could take this to a pretty absurd extreme and argue that literally anything that punishes you by making you replay content is "objectively bad game design" including phases you've already beaten of a single boss
>>727760839>someone does not like a mechanic in a video gamei’m having an aneurysm
i think theres a difference between good runbacks and bad runbacksbilewater is a great runback, it clearly has a meaningful purpose and you actually need to pay attentionon a smaller scale, last judge is a pretty good runback toobut if you have runbacks that are genuinely boring and just waste time then its just shitty, and its often placed in a boss that didnt really have any need for a runback in the first placea better example: most dark souls 1, dark souls 2 runbacks are cool. Dark souls 3 runbacks are usually shorter but they almost always fucking suck because its just walking in a threat-less straight line
>he didnt watch NakeyJakey's videofair, i mean half of it is some kind of midlife crisis.
>>727758640I wouldn't care much if almost all of the game wasn't designed like the Hive from HK. It's like they thought that areas like the Hive are what made HK fun, when it's an easily missed DLC area that adds nothing to the story outside of "hey, bees be building!".Playing through Silksong felt like playing the Hive again and again, just with different OST and coats of paint.
>>727759090damn I remember I stopped playing Starfox Adventures for weeks cause I couldn't mash A fast enoughalso getting filtered by Bruce in Viewtiful Joe
>>727762753>no modern game will ever get away with artificially padding the playtime that way ever again.Of course not. Modern games have more sophisticated ways of artificially padding the playtime.
I enjoy games with various levels of friction and difficulty- Silksong is the only one where I drew the line. There's got to be a better solution somewhere in the middle between bonfires at boss doors and carefully curated annoying runbacks.
>>727758640If your parents abused you you've been conditioned to desperately seek rewards even through the most unfair pain, it's the only way to enjoy this game
>>727758640>Gaming culture is deadBut people still say "skill issue" as a deflection all the time, just you
>>727764307fuck me, the title was just NakeyJakey is outdated when I saw it, didn't realize it was a Silksong video, I'm going to enjoy the next 41 minutes
>>727764307I did watch it and I know he liked Silksong but he still has the fucking midwit modernfag never-played-an-arcade-game assumption that more punishment = le bad, that somehow the retarded modern design where you just play 5 second chunks of extremely difficult gameplay over and over until you beat that 5 second chunk is waaaaay better and more fair than just having a difficult game with consequences for failure that actually lets you get into a flow state. I HATE QOL FETISHISM
Real talk, what causes nintendo fans to be unable to improve at playing videogames, and what consquences are a direct result of this?do they have such kinship for nintendo games because they have a low skill ceiling?do they hate multiplatform games like elden ring because it doesn'T?
>>727758640There is tension and then there is speedtranny autism level of tension where playing the game is a form of self harm. Hollow knight was balanced, Silksong is too far.
>>727758640I liked the bosses with long runbacks more than the instant retry ones like Lost Lace or First Sinner
What is the difference between playing Silksong and cutting your wrist to finally feel something even if its just pain?
>>727758640It's good that subhumans like >>727759001 and >>727758816 will oust themselves, we don't have to do any work.Just call these people subhuman and mock them when they post.Silksong is the pinnacle of indie games. It can't get any better than that and anyone who disagrees is not worth listening to.
>>727759090Yes they do. I have a job and a social life. I don't have time to do 35 runbacks so I can memorize some shitty boss attack pattern. It's dogshit difficultyslop design that appeals to nolifes like you so you can feel some sort of accomplishment in your miserable existence. You want a real challenge? Go get a fucking job and start being a contributing member of society. Start a family.
>>727758640Alright I'm gonna play Troonsong. Sqeakwuel to the middest platformer I ever saw
dreamgate is le badbillions must run back
>>727767000>I have a job and a social life. I don't have time to do 35 runbacks so I can memorize some shitty boss attack pattern.Not sure how that's the game's problem. Why are you even playing video games? You obviously think you're too good for them. Just live your soulless wageslave life like a good goy and leave video games out of it you tremendous faggot.
>>727767145I play lots of videogames other than Silkshit that are actually fun for me. Plenty of games manage to be challenging and/or fun without wasting my time. My time is worth more than yours and I play games that respect it. Again, go get a job and do something useful with your life.
>>727758640the only bad runback is groal's, the judge was not only nerfed, it's pretty short once mastered.i don't really recall any other annoying runbacks after that.
Today I remind thee.
