Sprites VS Models has been a thing going on for years now, but has anyone realised that both are good? I've been playing through gen 5 and realised that, yeah, the sprites are good, but I also really enjoyed the models...maybe I'm just too autistic for this board, but oh well.
Genius Sonority 3D models > Gamefreak 2D Sprites > Gamefreak 3D modelsBattle Revolution’s models had more life and character put into the animations. And airborne pokemon actually stay on the ground until they attack.
Genwar thread yet again
>>56952160hi yawnfag
>>56952176hi ywnbaw
>>56952154They were only able to do that because they only needed to make new models for new Pokemon. They could just recycle old ones. That lead to a lot of REALLY shitty-looking N64 models that had slight polygon increases in PBR
>>56952160gotta be honest, IDK how this could be seen as a genwar thread, considering I'm legitimately trying to end one of the stupid arguments people do.
>>56952154Yeah, Stadium/Colosseum/BR had fantastic animations. Having N64 models in GameCube and Wii games was a bit "wew" but the animations absolutely held up. I particularly like Gloom's eyes bugging out when he faints.
The problem isn't 3dIt's that gamefreak can't pose and animate for shit
>>56952180Just a side note, Emerald Machoke sprite goes HARD
>>56952418IDK anon, the battle animations are pretty cool, and in SV they fixed a few things. they even gave typhlosion their flames back.
>>56952453But muh narrative
>>56952453Every pokemon should have 3 to 4 animations for every kind of action.I hate these people for not having passion or pride for their own franchise. It would cost very little to employ a small army of animators for a year or two.
>>56952458No, he's still wrong. Just because the fandom eats these little "improvements" generation to generation (ignoring the ever growing list of removed and missing features) doesn't mean the game doesn't loo like shit compared to other games. Palworld won.
I had a lot of issues with the models and animations for the Pokemon up until PLA. Having all sorts of overworld movement, better coloring and scaling makes a world of difference.
>>56951882> but has anyone realised that both are good?No. Gen 5’s sprites are objectively terrible.>>56952154>Gamefreak 2D Sprites > Gamefreak 3D modelsYou won’t actually name a single way GF’s sprites are better than GF’s models, which is why you constantly need to change the subject to Genius Sonority as a deflection tactic.>Battle Revolution’s models had more life and character put into the animationsi.e. “the pokemon act like retarded cartoon characters and have overly long animations that make the game play like shit, but I can have fun watching them on youtube”“GF’s 3D animations also having more character than the sprites? Umm no that doesn’t count because it doesn’t fit my narrative that old game = good”
>>56952547>“the pokemon act like retarded cartoon charactersAnon, they ARE cartoon characters.>and have overly long animations that make the game play like shit, but I can have fun watching them on youtube”They're not that long. Jesus fuck, dude, I have pretty bad ADHD and I'M not bothered by them.
>>56952547damn bro someone was pissed off that I listed exactly 4 pros and 4 cons for both sprites and modelsyou might be high and mighty but they both have their merits
>>56952589>more explosive in expressionFalse because the sprites are stuck in a single idle animation instead of transitioning to actual attack/hurt/happy/sad animations like the models.>allows for more dynamic posingIt’s literally less dynamic because they have fewer poses than the models, because again, they’re stuck in a single shitty idle animation.>new sprites made every game1. this isn’t even inherently a good thing2. plenty of sprites were lazily reused3. every single Switch game has had new models>clean lookingBlatantly false with the gen 5 sprites that have fucking awful distorted tweening with blown up back spritesSaying “they both have merits” doesn’t mean anything when you need to lie about sprites.
>>56952615my guy it's not too seriousyou're wasting your precious time on earth with a fucking lecture over .gif's and .dae's. and ngl all you're doing is trying to start a fight. I get it, I'm attention starved too, but you know there's healthier ways to get it.
>>56951882typhlosion looks so fucking lame without his flameslike some rat rodent family pet that they should probably put on a diet if they want him to live for another 5 years
>>56952717actually as someone with a friend who looks after rats, they usually get some form of cancer before they hit the age of 3, let alone 5. very short lifespans.
>>56952154>Genius Sonority 3D models >Gamefreak 3D modelsTHEY'RE MADE BY THE SAME FUCKING COMPANY YOU ABSOLUTE FUCKING RETARDS
hey so uhgenuine questionwhy do people have the inability to enjoy things hereis the only enjoyment you get from stomping down other things?
>>56952726that's sad
>>569527794chinners are unable to prove joy
>>56952785it is, but they're usually loved an absolute tonne and given the best life they can with their small lifespan.>>56952810idk, I've seen tonnes of people on this site being super happy.
>>56951882I like Hitmontop's caipoera dance.
The biggest problem with 3D models (beyond the fact that Gamefreak is massively incompetent and that their models look godawful, but this is not an issue with the concept of 3D models itself so I won't count it) is that they make it less feasible to have the player use their Pokemon use their abilities to navigate the game world, since you would have to animate them all separately. Hence why HMs have been abandoned and replaced with shitty systems that force you to use one particular Pokemon the devs chose for you for navigation instead of your own team. Obviously HMs weren't perfect and them taking combat move slots was always stupid, but just imagine a game where non-combat moves and combat moves occupy different slots so you still have to build a diverse team that can navigate the game world but you won't have to sacrifice your combat effectiveness of your Pokemon for it. It's a really beautiful idea and it makes me sad to think it will never be realized because the franchise is held hostage by incompetent nincompoops.
>>56953864HMs were abandoned because it’s objectively a fucking terrible mechanic.
>>56953884>Implying Gamefreak would ever be competent enough to abandon a classic mechanic just because it's terrible.HMs were abandoned because 3D made them too unfeasible to implement as graphics continued to become less stylized. But that is beside the point, the newer games still use Pokemon to navigate the game world, they just don't use the player's pokemon because Gamefreak is too lazy to actually animate several different animations for each navigation ability instead of using just one. There's no reason for a ride pokemon to spawn out of fucking nowhere instead of being a Pokemon in your party for example. The idea of using Pokemon to navigate the game world is still present in mainline Pokemon games, it's just no longer dependent on the player's own Pokemon, and I would argue that is primarily because of 3D models replacing sprites.
>>56953884We still have IVs despite being a dogshit mechanic, don't even kid yourself. GameFreak would've loved to keep HMs around if they could keep believably abstracting their usage, but we've reached a point now where people expect unique surfing rigs for every single surf-eligible Pokemon ever since SWSH, for example, especially when ORAS set the expectation by giving Sharpedo a unique surf model AND unique attributes (faster surf speed but an inability to use fishing rods).So it was easier to axe HMs and replace them with a functionally similar mechanic, like Rotom Bike's upgrades or Paradox Cyclizar's ability unlocks.
>>56952615>False because the sprites are stuck in a single idle animationThis doesn't refute "explosiveness", retard. The 3D models still move in a generic way.>It’s literally less dynamic because they have fewer posesThe amount of poses isn't the argument. It's the TYPE of poses present, which sprites exceed at. You can see it in the OP.>this isn't inherently a good thingYes it is>plenty of sprites were lazily reusedNo where near the extent of model and animation reuse-age in the 3D era.>every single switch game has had new modelsNice semansticsfagging, new pokemon/forms = new models. Congrats, how is that better again?>pixelation existsIt exists in every game anon. They still look clean. >Saying “they both have merits”Is objectively correct when you didn't disprove anything.
>>56954104>This doesn't refute "explosiveness",Yes it does. Gen 6 Samurotts "explodes" into pulling out its swords to do an attack. Gen 5 Samurott does nothing but do the same shitty idle animation loop perpetually.>The amount of poses isn't the argumentIt's literally what "dynamic" means.>Yes it isNo it isn't.>No where near the extent of model and animation reuse-age in the 3D eraNo it isn't.>Nice semansticsfaggingYou being wrong isn't "semanticsfagging".>It exists in every game anonDistortion doesn't exist in every game. They don't look at all clean once they move.>Is objectively correctNot when you lie.
>>56953916>>Implying Gamefreak would ever be competent enough to abandon a classic mechanic just because it's terribleThen why is that exactly what they did?>>>56953991>if they could keep believably abstracting their usageYou having lower standards for sprites doesn't mean they were ever believably abstract.
>>56954197>Samurottexceptions don't disprove tendencies. MOST of Gen 6's models move with human speed, which doesn't fit them at all. While Gen 5 has less animation, the animation you see if more lively/explosive. Stop deflecting back to "amount of animations". It's a sign you lost the actual point.>muh definitionWhen comparing two poses, the one that looks more dynamic is the one that isn't just fucking standing there doing nothing 99 percent of the time, so Gen 5's poses are more dynamic. You're saying the models themselves are more dynamic, which was literally conceded by the OP. But we're not discussing that. We are discussing posing.>No it isn'tYes it is. It makes games actually feed different. Your favorite mon looking the same every time makes the games stale.>No it isn't.Yes it is. 90% of the models and animations are reused between most back-to-back games XY and later. Sprites don't come close to that. >you being wrongBut how is that wrong? The claim is that every game revamped previous sprites moreso than previous models get revamped. you'd be insane to deny this.>Distortion doesn't exist in every gameWhen said "distortion" is just you bitching about aliasing, then yes it exists. in every game with motion.>not when you lieI'm not lying though. You just disagree with a position. Doesn't make the other people liars. You're probably a political hack IRL.
>>56954231>Then why is that exactly what they did?HMs had flaws but the answer isn't to make the system worse, which is what they did.>having lower standards for spritesSprite games are just older and weaker anon. Those placeholder birds and fish sprites and models were fine for their time. Even in XY they were fine, where they began to model a couple individuals. that's where we were supposed to be by now with every mon, with the HM "move" eventually becoming a passive thing inherent to the capabilities of mons. But the removal of HMs threw a wrench in all that and forced you into select mons. Let's Go even have everyone hope, but the rest screwed it again.
>>56952547Objectively is not a magic word that turns opinions into facts.
>>56954239>exceptions don't disprove tendenciesLiterally every Pokemon in gen 6 has attack animations and literally zero Pokemon in gen 5 have attack animations.>When comparing two poses, the one that looks more dynamic is the one that isn't just fucking standing there doing nothingThe one that looks more dynamic is the one that actually changes into different animations based on context instead of looping the same shitty idle animation. Learn what "dynamic" means.>It makes games actually feed differentThis isn't inherently a good thing. Nice spelling btw.>Sprites don't come close to thatYes they do.>But how is that wrong?It's wrong because you don't know what models are.>When said "distortion" is just you bitching about aliasingIt's not aliasing. It's the sprite literally being distorted from an automated tweening algorithm.>I'm not lying thoughYes you are.>>56954257>HMs had flaws but the answer isn't to make the system worse"Cancer has flaws but the answer isn't to remove the cancer">Sprite games are just older and weaker anonNo, your standards for them are just lower.>>56954260"Pros" is not a is not a magic word that turns lies into facts.
hey uh guys?is this a debate or an argument..?I.. can't tell.
>>56954364And so is "cons"
WHY DO YOU NIGGERS FIGHT. THEY'RE ALL TRASH.
>>56955649I'm not bothered by the fact these are the "people" I'm posting with. Looks are overrated.
>>56952180>"mutli millions company can't make better models and animation because of the sheer number of mons">dex cut is a thing>Genius Sonority didn't have this level of ressources and still did better with shitty N64 models>Gamecube era was 20 years agoNah, it's just incompetency and laziness, stop defending mediocrity.
>>56952528PLA does things better and SV is an amelioration over old 3D Pokémon games but we are far from what a company able to sell games at the same level as fucking TotK could do
>>56954197>Gen 6 Samurottsimagine spamming that one example everywhere like an autistic child having a temper tantrumlet me make it simple for you : u r wrooooooong
>>56954364Holy shit, you are beyond saving for being this hell bent about something everyone else here agree with but you, on different threads no less.No one said sprites were done perfectly or didn't have issues, but we also are talking about a game made 15 years ago vs recent ones, and there is no doubt that they could do better now with the 3D models and could have for a while. I would even argue that a huge majority of people find the 3D models done by other companies to look amazing and wouldn't complain if we had similar but more recent versions used instead in games. We wouldn't even have that debate, everyone would be satisfied.So, it's not about 2D vs 3D but just that GameFreak has been lazy and have barely made improvements since Gen 6, with only Gen 9 trying slightly more but not enough at all.
>>56952547>No. Gen 5’s sprites are objectively terrible.imagine being a gen 6 fag who cant be objectivenext he is going to say that megas is the best mechanic and everything else is shit
>>56955925>but we also are talking about a game made 15 years ago vs recent onesNothing about the game being made 15 years ago justifies the sprites being objectively lower quality.>So, it's not about 2D vs 3DThis thread is literally about 2D vs 3D.
>>56951882People will be making arguments like this to justify AI slop within the next decade or two.
>>56951882You solved shit. Some of your points are either subjective or something players don't give a shit about : - Models being changed or not isn't something as important. If 3D sprites looked better, no one would care to see the same shit over and over again.- 3D doesn't allow for more animations than 2D, 3D only has had more animations because they were at a point in 2D where it wasn't necessary to go that far or they couldn't.- Dynamic posing and explosive expression has been shown in 3D with Stadium, Colosseum, Pokkén, etc. Same with overall expressiveness, 2D can do as much as 3D on that point.- 3D can look clean and 2D could be as easily portable to newer games (if anything, 2D doesn't need upscalling nowadays, it's just the limitations of the first systems pushing new sprites). Sprites can be used for the overworld too (same has above, the limitations of the systems are at fault, not 2D sprites themselves, we even have fan games doing just that) and it's also a non-issue most don't care about, only devsI could go on but you get it, most of these are irrelevant. 2D vs 3D is of course before all subjective. But, overall, why people complain about the 3D models isn't because 2D is just so much better everyone wants to revert back to it : most here agree that we have had examples where 3D Pokémon has been done right, just not by GameFreak directly. If this was the state of the recent games, if the 3D models were this well detailled and the animations even more polished, most people wouldn't be pissy about 3D and how 2D looks better.
>>56951882I kinda like Eelektross' derpy look
>>56952547>GF’s 3D animations also having more character than the sprites?That would be because there is no character to them.But the point of comparison to me has always been the former 3D models, which, despite hardware limitations, just did so much more.
>>56957219>That would be because there is no character to them.Why don't you actually play the games?
>>56954364>deflects the animation amount againAgain, the single animation that loops in Gen 5 is more explosive than all the animations in Gen 6. Switching between animations =/= explosiveness, and the next time you deflect to it you lost>changes between different animationsSo you're deflecting away from posing to "amount os animations". That's the dynamic-ness of the model overall, not any particular pose. The argument is that the POSES were more dynamic, which they were in 2D. Look at the OP and tell me which poses are more dynamic and look like they are in action>not being bored and playing the same game isn't inherently a good thingNice bait. Pokemon need to be expressive, instead of being carbon cut copies of each other like in the 3D model games>you don't know what models areHow? You still didn't point to where I was wrong or didn't know what models were. You're just imagining things by now>It's not aliasing, it's [thing i've never shown to be the case]try again>Yes you areShow me where I lied. You just disagree with the positions. Doesn't make the other people liars. You're probably a political hack IRL>muh cancerHMs aren't cancer though. They are good because you use your own mons in a realistic way. I already outlined how they could have been improved. The replacement they went with is clearly much worse.>NoLiterally yes. Every sprite pokemon is older than every 3D model pokemon game. It's also on weaker hardware. If you deny this obvious fact you lost. If a sprite game came out today and had all the things models are currently criticized for, it would also be heavily criticized>they're lies because I disagreenot how it works either. Are you unable to handle discussions without demonizing opponents?>>56956119>sprites being [BUZZWORD] lower qualityThey're fine for their time. Nothing justifies current models still having all the issues ITT>This threadAnon meant those flaws aren't intrinsic to 3D and can be fixed, but GF's retarded
>>56957219>there's no character in bulbasaur actually using its vines to attack>there's no character in blastoise using its water cannons to shoot and propel water from its legs to fly>there's no character in pikachu's cheeks lighting up when it attacks>there's no character in kangaskhan's baby turning around to the mother when it faints>there's no character in mr. mime actually miming a wall>there's no character in magikarp flopping on the ground>there's no character in typhlosion erupting its flames whenever it attacks>there's no character in sudowoodo staying still to pretend it's a tree>there's no character in donphan turning into a tire when it attacks and moves>there's no character in hitmontop doing capoeira>there's no character in zigzagoon actually moving in zigzags>there's no character in spinda looking dizzy and almost falling over>there's no character in metagross tucking in its legs to fly>there's no character in toxicroak doing a fighting stance>there's no character in porygon-z randomly glitching and having a seizure>there's no character in samurott pulling out its sword like a samurai>there's no character in archeops struggling to fly>there's no character in klink rotating more smoothly as it evolves>there's no character in genesect tucking in its body to fly>there's no character in chesnaught turning its arms into a shield>there's no character in delphox pulling out a wand to attack>there's no character in greninja doing ninja poses to attack>there's no character in meowstic revealing its hidden eyes to attack>there's no character in aegislash switching positions to change how it attacks>there's no character in helioptile showing its frills to attack>there's no character in decidueye pulling out arrows out of its wings to attack>there's no character in incineroar constantly taunting the opponent and shooting fire out of its belt to attack>there's no character in primarina standing up to sing
>>56957219>there's no character in toucannon's beak suddenly heating up and changing color when it attacks>there's no character in passimian kicking its ball over when it faints>there's no character in pyukumuku forming a fist with its intestines whenever it attacks>there's no character in buzzwole constantly doing bodybuilder poses>there's no character in necrozma being constantly in pain>there's no character in rillaboom playing its drum when it attacks>there's no character in cinderace doing a soccer victory pose>there's no character in cramorant having a struggling pikachu in its mouth>there's no character in toxtricity strumming its chest like a guitar when it attacks>there's no character in impidimp rolling its eyes like a cartoon character when it faints>there's no character in falinks forming different fighting stances>there's no character in morpeko eating food whenever it switches forms>there's no character in dreepy shooting out of dragapult's horns>there's no character in skeledirge singing into a microphone when it attacks>there's no character in quaquaval doing a festival dance when it attacks>there's no character in lokix extending its legs when it attacks>there's no character in armarouge using its armor to form a cannon when it attacks>there's no character in bramblin rolling around like a tumbleweed>there's no character in iron bundle's head popping off when it faints>there's no character in gholdengo using a surfboard to move around>there's no character in archaludon turning into a bridge to attack>there's magically character in the sprites that do literally none of these things and just have a single generic idle animation where they do nothing but rotate their limbs>I once again have to deflect to OTHER 3d models to somehow try and convince people sprites are better
>>56958584>>56958591Correct because 99% of the time they just stand there and have no character until they move, which is rare. Sprites have character intrinsically. They’re made pixel by pixel in the best looking way to give them their character.To clarify, I’m not saying those animations are bad or should not exist. Just that their usage, or lack thereof, is bad and the devs should make them have character at all times. Even though sprites didn’t move, they used that fact as an excuse to choose poses that maximize their expression in battle. With 3D Pokémon games, it seems like they figured, like you correctly did, “these animations are pretty good alone”, which is true, but they used it as an excuse to compromise how the Pokémon look all the time. I think that’s the overarching concern. Something like “character” has to be consistently present to be believable. If all these varying monsters have supposedly different characters, it’s ruined by the fact that they all animated with the same general flow of a 1-2 second animation and then simultaneously all snap back to a generic breathing pose with the same cadence.
>>56958697>Correct because 99% of the time they just stand thereplay the games
The sprites are objectively better than the 3D models and everyone knows this. Give it up, yawntranny.
>>56958732>play the gamesI did. 99% of the time they just stand there.
>>56958748Playing Pokemon Showdown isn't playing the games.
>>56958751>Playing Pokémon ShowdownI played the mainline 3D pokemon games as well anon. 99% of the time they just stand there.
>>56958769>I played the mainline 3D pokemon games as wellNo you haven't.
>>56958732>>56958751Are you okay? Saying “play the games” doesn’t make the criticism go away. It isn’t some magic phrase that makes downsides disappear. You obviously just use it to seem like an insufferable denialist for some reason, and it isn’t working btw
>>56958778>No you haven’tYes I have. 99% of the time they just stand there.
>>56958797No you haven't.>>56958785Are you okay? Lying and saying "the pokemon just stand there" doesn't make the criticism true.
manI definitely forsaw thispeople standing their ground and getting pissed off at the other people.they're both shit and good, anons, just accept it.
>>56958813>they're both shit and good, anons,Nope. The sprites are shit. The models are good.
>>56958811>No you haven’tYes I have. 99% of the time they just stand there.>parrots.Looks like you aren’t okay.>LyingIt’s true. 99% of the time they just stand there. You denying this proves (You) didn’t play the game.
>>56951882>I solved the argument>uuhhhh dey both gud :DDDNigger, shut the fuck up.
>>56958819One glance at the OP makes this statement look retarded. And that’s because it’s pretty false. Sprites have major pros over models, and you sending a thread to the bump limit by the end of the day in pure seethe won’t change that.
>>56958591Don't unironically use Toucannon as an example for animations. His beak lighting up doesn't make up for the fact that he doesn't ever fucking move.
>>56958819One glance at the OP makes this statement look 100% true.>>56958822>Yes I haveNo you haven't.>It’s trueNo it isn't.
>>56958862>One glance at the OPShows the sprites look better, yes.>No you haven’tYes I have. 99% of the time they just stand there.>No it isn’t Yes it is. 99% of the time they just stand there. You denying this proves (You) didn’t play the game.
>>56958899>Shows the sprites look betterNope>Yes I haveNope>Yes it isNope
>>56958862>>56958899heya fellas, the OP you're talking about is talking to ya right nowand they're both shit, they're both good, they have their own pros and cons.if you can't understand something that simple, get outta my shit lmao<-- this is you guys rn
>>56958948>Nope Nope NopeYep Yep YepI played them. That’s how I know that 99% of the time they just stand there. You denying this proves (You) didn’t actually play them.The OP also shows the sprites look better. You denying this makes you either blind or an intentionally shitflinging shitposter.
>>56958991Nope
>>56958996Yep
>>56959000>>56958996you're both wasting your time. genuinely.this argument is so petty it devolved to fucking "yes it is no it's not" arguments.have you even TRIED seeing what the other person likes about their preferred thing? or are you going to blindly hate because you're a 4chan dipshit deciding that this is the best way to waste a feeble day in your lives?
>>56959018I’m the one “on the side” of the sprites. To toot my own horn for a second, I tried offering off-ramps. I suggested 3D isn’t intrinsically the bad guy and that it was implemented bad. I suggested how exactly HMs could have been improved in the 3D era. I suggested how animations in the 3D era could have been improved. All I’m doing is “defending” OP to an extent and acknowledging both have pros and cons to them. My opponent has done nothing if the sort and just devolves into “models all good, sprites all bad” >>56958819So please don’t lump me in with him.
I have no horse in this race, but 3D anon cannot, in good faith, defend this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ryf9VAwTMG8I do think 3D has more "potential" for dynamism and expression, since you just need to re-rig it instead of making a whole bunch of brand new sprites, but GF has NOT shown they have any competence with 3D animation whereas they have *some* with 2D sprites, which are, for lack of a better term, simpler to work with.
>>56959580Which part of that video proves sprites are magically better?Is there a better animation for Z-moves in gen 5?
>>56959589Did I say anything about sprites being better? Putting words in people's mouths is pretty disingenuous, anon. I even mentioned 3D has higher potential; stop creating arguments to debunk.I just said models as they have been done so far by our pet billion dollar small indie dev is not excusable.
>>56959632>Did I say anything about sprites being better?What do you think the topic of this thread is?
>>56959639I know what the topic is, and I specifically said I had no horse in this race. Please read more attentively next time.If you want an actual take in the main thesis, here it is:Sprites lend themselves more towards goofy, exaggerated expressions and or short shots. Given the simplistic nature of battles in Pokémon, where it goes use move > move animation > damage and vice-versa, they could've done a lot more with sprites that could've been better. WHICH THEY DIDN'T (I'm putting it in all caps so you can't miss it, anon-kun).Models are better for higher fidelity and more cohesive world-building. Having a model move and shift fluidly is better for immersion than a rigid set of sprites, so in terms of making a game that sells a fantastic world of fantastic creatures, having models with a plethora of animation for different situations is obviously better. WHICH THEY ALSO DIDN'T (just for you, anon).So both have failed in significant ways (some due to technological constraints, mostly due to lack of talent/competence). Models have higher highs and lowers lows, as in models engage the player more but if they fail at it, things seem even more artificial than sprites since those, by their inherent nature, ask for some imagination/abstraction from the player to begin with.
There's no argument or discussion though, miserable dinosaurs insist on huffing nostalgia fumes and rejecting everything else while non-spastics enjoy seeing their mons express themselves as more than 12 fucking pixels. There's absolutely no reason to acknowledge the faggot whining of the terminally stupid, especially considering they literally don't play the games
>>56959664>Models have lowers lowsThis is the part you keep failing to actually prove.
>>56959790Those were my first posts in this thread, so I haven't been trying to prove anything thus far, but I'll bite.Imagine the scenario where you have two sprites, be it in battle, contest, even just representing a mon in the overworld. If it does a short animation or even just stands there in an idle animation and something happens, you understand that's just a video game-y representation and your mind supplies the rest or extrapolates from the situation.Now imagine the same scenario where a Pokémon's model does a move where the model just hops around twice and a move happens completely unrelated to that hopping. Or if you're in the overworld and use Waterfall, so your water mon does a little roar or something and the entire model goes up (maybe rotated, maybe not) with no significant change in idle. That's a lot more egregious to your suspension of disbelief. It looks a lot more artificial; it's the same video game-y vibe, but now instead of some representation via image, you have a whole-ass model doing the most unnatural shit.A Pokémon's model visibly swimming up a waterfall would be a lot better than a simple sprite, by the nature of actual movement vibing better with your brain's notion of movement, effort, weight, etc. An idling model being dragged up the waterfall unresponsively is a lot worse than a sprite exactly because it actively crushes those natural notions.
>>56959841>it's the "sprites aren't actually better but just have lower standards for sprites and use your imagination to pretend they look good" argument
>>56959841I just remembered an example that really irked me when I first saw it. During the USUM water trial, you fight an Araquanid. They try to sell to the player that, when you encounter it, the Araquanid bursts through the surface to face you and the fight starts.What they do is rotate the model 90 degrees, so the legs are up, put that through the water plane (while hiding the rest of the model with the camera angle) and then it hard cuts to the idling model on top of the water and the battle begins. It's so goddamn stupid, so amateurish that it's hard to believe GF had to try and hide their incompetence instead of just making a proper animation for a climatic event that's at the centre of the spectacles they sell the game around. It absolutely CAN be done and I'm sure a dedicated fan with modelling knowledge could do it reasonably well for the relatively weak 3DS, but GF can't be fucked to put in the effort and it ruins the world they try to sell us multiple times at full price each.>>56959867You don't have to have lower expectations, anons. EVERYONE knows GF's spritework is behind other developers. The 2D medium as a whole sends information differently to you (because it lacks a whole dimension, shocker) and you naturally interpret it differently. You're STILL putting words in my mouth that I did not say.
>>56959881>You don't have to have lower expectations,Then you still haven't explained the part where models have lower lows.
>>56959901I did explain, but you clearly won't accept any arguments that don't cater to your beliefs, so there's no point in trying.If you really can't, or won't, acknowledge the presentation differences of both formats (compare stuff like animated movies to CG rendered ones, for example), then all I can say is we'll agree to disagree.Congrats on your win. If you want to consider this as me conceding, I won't tell you otherwise.
>>56959930>I did explainYour explanation was "lower your standards for sprites and use your imagination to pretend they look good but conveniently don't do this for models"
>>56959939Sure.
>>56952180All the current 3d models are made by Creatures and recycled
>>56958591Yes, many Attack and faint animations are good, but the complaint is that for most pokemon, their idle animation, which is what they spend the most time in, is boring. If they just changed the idle animation in battle to look like they were ready to fight, most of the problems would be gone
>>56959841You guys have some unreal fucking expectations. I mean no game does this unless they're using one or two characters at the most and you want them to do it for 400 to 800 mon? Not counting forms? Are you insane?
>>56960700Don't get me wrong, I don't expect a next-gen, UHD. million count polygon, mocap'd hyper realistic movement for over 1000 critters, of course not. I'm not a japanese business owner to expect people to bleed and die at their desks slaving away day in day in, no. Especially because the Switch is quite the underpowered console and it doesn't pretend otherwise.That said, GF and TPC in general get no excuses for operating the way they've done for years now. If you look into employee reviews, they're always talking about what an honor working at GF is, but that the younger blood there is using the position as a springboard for better resumes and the older, veteran staff doesn't have the skills or willingness to learn better, more modern skills AND also don't listen to ideas from the younger people because they have seniority and, therefore, know better.What you end up with is a stale work environment where they're always doing the same thing over and over, which kills passion and creativity while also needing to constrain themselves to truly absurdly rigid release schedules because the merchandising monolith that is Pokémon needs to be constantly putting out stuff. The games are not even close to the biggest revenue bringer so them being subpar is just the necessary symptom of always be releasing new merch for consoomers to eat up.
>>56952547Hi yawncuck
>>56951882>more expressive overall show me one example where a pokemon born from 2d looks more expressive in 3d besides stadium/coliseum
>>56960020>but the complaint is that I'm playing an imaginary game where the animations that exist don't exist
>>56960807>>56958584>>56958591
>>56960753>Especially because the Switch is quite the underpowered console and it doesn't pretend otherwise.Anon, it's not about power or any of the of the other bullshit you're talking about. The fact of the matter is that no developer would ever entertain what you want because it's such a colossal waste of time.I mean, for as much shit people give to pokemon for it's animations most monster tamers don't do half as much with even lower monster counts.
>>56960897>a few basic animations for actions is bullshitIf that's how you see it, anon.
>>56960919Okay anon, let's do it like this.How many animations is a "few" to you?
I regret making this postlet it die already
>>56961057I don't remember which of these we already have, so for those that already exist, obviously there'd be no need to make it again.>battle entry>physical attack>special attack>damage>KO (don't have to be as goofy/dramatic as past ones for battle simulators, obviously. That's part of their charm)>walking/running>sleeping (doesn't have to be much, closed eyes and a slight droop is enough)> 2 or 3 extra for use in contextual stuffThat said, special events (like big cinematic stuff like trials or things of that nature) should have on par presentation. Either make it pre-rendered or make a proper animation for it.Though I think a more critical revamp is needed for move animations. So much stuff is just "make the model hop twice and maybe put a simple effect on screen" while they stand really far away, but that would be more suited for maybe a dedicated battle sim a la Stadium/PBR.
>>56961176So 12 minimum. I think that's less than what we already have anyway since I think there are also unique idle animations for some mon in SV and some unique ones for status and signature moves but whatever. SV and SS both had 400 pokemon not counting forms in their base game so that's now 5200 unique animations not counting forms. That's a lot of work you know.Keep in mind that most monster tamers only have>attackSometimes you get one for non contact or status moves>damage>1 or 2 unique attack movesAnd that's about it and for much lower monster counts.
