>BG3>paladin is the OP class>Pathfinder WOTR>paladin is the OP class>Solasta>paladin is the OP class???
>>3657058Stop what? Paladin is protagonist class.
>use game system where smite can only be used against evil targets>campaign has lots of non-evil enemiesthere you go
>>3657063So Kingmaker then.
>>3657058Paladin has always been the handholdy retard class
>>3657058>>Pathfinder WOTR>>paladin is the OP classHaha.>>Solasta>paladin is the OP classMostly timar, and they are not as effective in Lost Valley
>>3657058Paladin is bad in bg3it's just good for newbiesit's not even good at all unless you go mostly sorcerer or bard, so are you even a paladin at that point?
>>3657070>Haha.?Are you just unfamiliar with WOTR or
>>3657063This is why I strategically specifically mentioned WOTR and not Kingmaker, since you do indeed fight tons of neutral mobs that make Smite useless in KM
>>3657070>Mostly timar, and they are not as effective in Lost ValleyJudgement is even stronger than Tirmar and its not sorak specific
>>3657072I fucking hate what 5th ed did to paladins. Make it a generic burst damage class totally divorced from its origins and heritage. Even more disgusting is how people want to multiclass it and mix it with wildly inappropriate shit like you mentioned. 5th ed is shit and people who think it’s good are dumb dumbs.
>>3657075Lol, just lol if you didn’t play Kingmaker as a solo paladin, hitting f*y in the face with your shieldThey were evil in my mind
>>36571045E is shit but you're a retard. Paladin/Sorcerer and Paladin/Bard are not inappropriate combinations.
>>3657058>holy warrior on a mission from god>not opishygddy
>>3657074Are you? It's not OP in the slightest, no martial class is
>>3657104>with wildly inappropriate shitStop spouting this nonsense opinion. There's nothing inappropriate about paladins mixed with 99% of classes. That 1% is people mixing the super duper do gooder lawful good paladins with devil worshipping warlocks, which isn't even the OP variation of the paladin/warlock combination.>totally divorced from its origins and heritageHow is it totally divorced? And how more so than other editions and DnD derivatives? What it means to be X class (and even X race) completely changes every time we change editions.
These are the most annoying and retarded threads on this board. I swear someone just shits these prompts out.
>>3657116>Paladin/Bard [is not an] inappropriate combinationIt's illegal, retard-kun. One, paladins are generally restricted from multiclassing save for a handful of specific exceptions, and two, paladins have to be lawful good, bards have to be some flavor of neutral (2nd ed), or chaotic (3rd ed). This is just cheese of people mixing classes based on CHA for mechanical benefits with no consideration to roleplaying. >Paladin/SorcererSame shit. This is always done solely as a paladin dip to get +CHA to saves and perhaps armor and weapon proficiencies, while the character is otherwise a nearly-pure sorceror. Munchkin cheese. There were Mystra paladins back in the day who were allowed to level as wizards, but virtually no one does that because there's very little synergy with a lawful stupid paladin and an INT-using arcane caster, it's always a sorc with a two or three level dip of paladin to double dip on CHA.>>3657200>There's nothing inappropriate about paladins mixed with 99% of classes.A foolish statement.>How is it totally divorced?1. No longer human only2. No longer required to be lawful good3. No longer required to be pure classed4. No longer granted powers from a deity, now you can be a Reddit knight of the fedora, enlightened by his oath>And how more so than other editions and DnD derivatives?None of that shit was true in older editions, save 3rd ed dropping "human only">What it means to be X class (and even X race) completely changes every time we change editionsThis is partly why 5th ed is trash.
>>3657222>1. No longer human only>2. No longer required to be lawful goodGood, no point if you can't be a paladin of Asmodeus with horns and shit.
>>3657222>It's illegal, retard-kunHarmonious Knight, From Smite to Song, Paladin of Freedom>but virtually no one does that because there's very little synergy with a lawful stupid paladin and an INT-using arcane caster,Wrong actually, Sword of the Arcane Order is vastly superior to normal Paladin.
>>3657222>No longer granted powers from a deity,Paladins were never granted powers from deities until 4E.
>>3657254Also Devoted Performer. Paladin/Bard is legal.
>>3657222Paladins are made to suck my dick and do it good, are you going to bitch about it?
>>3657222>No longer granted powers from a deity, now you can be a Reddit knight of the fedora, enlightened by his oathYou could be an atheist cleric in 2e. Eat shit, groyper.
>>3657058Paladins are designed to be the easiest to play.
>>3657256>Paladins were never granted powers from deities until 4E.Paladins were required to serve deities and their churches as far back as the Basic-Expert-Companion sets back in the day.The real RP issue is accountability. Along with the removal of alignment restrictions, notice how there's no penalty anywhere in 5e for a divine caster misbehaving? No more paladins falling, no more clerics/druids losing access to their abilities if they screw up or piss off their patron?You can't have morality without being accountable.
>>3657058>BG3>Paladin is the OP classAll classes in BG3 are OP except for pure Rogue>WOTR>Paladin is the OP classNo it isn't
>>3657058wotr it makes sense since you are fighting demons
>>3657310Basic is a separate game from AD&D and falling was used to troll players with bullshit gotcha traps 80% of the time.
>>3657254>>3657258The reason you have to post a bunch of homebrew bullshit from splat books, instead of directly citing the rules of the game, is because your argument is directly refuted by the rules of the game.>A paladin must be lawful good in alignment and must always remain lawful good. -AD&D PHB, pg 27> If a paladin ever knowingly performs a chaotic act, he must seek a high-level (7th or more) cleric of lawful good alignment, confess his sin, and do penance as prescribed by the cleric. If a paladin should ever knowingly and willingly perform an evil act, he loses the status of paladinhood immediately and irrevocably. All benefits are then lost and no deed or magic can restore the character to paladinhood: He is ever after a fighter. -AD&D PHB, pg 27>A bard can be lawful, neutral or chaotic, good or evil, but must always be partially neutral. -AD&D PHB, pg 41>Paladins must be lawful good, and they lose their divine powers if they deviate from that alignment. Additionally, paladins swear to follow a code of conduct that is in line with lawfulness and goodness. -3rd ed PHB, pg 42>Bards are wanderers, guided by whim and intuition rather than by tradition or law. The spontaneous talent, magic, and lifestyle of the bard are incompatible with a lawful alignment. -3rd ed PHB, pg 26Their alignments are fundamentally incompatible.
>>3657301>You could be an atheist cleric in 2e. Eat shit, groyper.I want you to read this post out loud to yourself and reflect on how incredibly stupid everything about it is. You have terminal brain rot from the internet, and it's time to log off and go outside.
>>3657256>Paladins were never granted powers from deities until 4E.O rly?>A paladin can cast priest spells once he reaches 9th level. [...] The acquisition and casting of these spells abide by the rules given for priests. -AD&D PHB, pg 28>The cleric receives his spells as insight directly from his deity (the deity does not need to make a personal appearance to grant the spells the cleric prays for), as a sign of andreward for his faith, so he must take care not to abuse his power lest it be taken away as punishment. -AD&D PHB, pg 33>The gods may choose a mortal to become a paladin for reasons of their own. Alternately, a qualified mortal may petition the gods for paladin status. A suitable candidate must meet all of the physical and mental requirements for paladinhood, and must also demonstrate unshakable faith. [...] The gods will guide the candidate through a long series of quests and training exercises to ensure that he develops the necessary skills. On occasion, the gods may grant paladin powers to the candidate directly, foregoing training of any kind. -The Complete Paladin's Handbook>A paladin acquires spells through prayer, just like a priest. Assuming the paladin has adhered to the tenets of his faith, the deity or greater power usually grants the requested spells. After receiving spells, a paladin uses them the same way as a priest, employing identical components, casting times, and effects. -The Complete Paladin's Handbook>Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells (the same type of spells available to the cleric) [...] A paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does -3rd ed PHB, pg 44>Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. -3rd ed PHB, pg 32
>>3657679>splatbooks>homebrewRetard
>>3657058Pillars of Eternity: Deadfire too, best healers if you dual wield.
>>3657811Splatbooks are literally just some morons homebrew, in a book. If you think something new and retarded is canon just because it has a (((publisher’s))) logo on it, you’re the reason why DnD and everything else is shit nowadays.
>>3657878No.
>>3657058Spellswords are inherently the strongest class in any game. The ability to tank far more than the wizard while also being able to dump more DPS nukes than a pure martial. You can't fix it without removing a huge chunk of magic and disallowing any mixture of magic+martial. It's baked into the very mechanics of such systems regardless of the specific one.This wasn't a problem that existed in early days when classes/roles were tightly defined and restricted so you couldn't mix fighter with wizard but you autists wouldn't shut up and stop screeching about how you wanted to make your heckin special snowflake Blackblade Hex Smite Pyroslasher builds like your favorite tranime character. If you truly have integrity no one is forcing you to play the magic martial, be a fuckin man and go pure fighter or wizard and stop being an optimizing tryhard bitch.
>>3658268>paladin has very strict ability score requirements, and players roll their stats in order first, before choosing from the classes they qualify for, making rolling a paladin a rarityUmm sweety what if we just let anyone play whatever they want all the time, and just pick whatever stats they want with point buy? Better yet let's just give you a standard array of stats so you get the same numbers everyone else does so you don't have to think too hard>paladin has purpose-built powers to detect and destroy evil in the name of his God, however this is tempered by strict roleplaying and alignment requirements, and paladins who fail to adhere to their code of conduct lose all powers and forever become a mere fighterYeah that's problematic, let's just let players do whatever they want all the time because there's no such thing as objective morality, that would make people feel badSmite evil? Wow that sounds anti-Semitic, let's just make it a generic burst damage class, smite anything you want! women, children, town guards, the goyim...
>>3657058fuck that. how do we stop the AI slop portrait plague?
>>3657222>None of that shit was true in older editions, save 3rd ed dropping "human only"you could multiclass paladin in 3rd ed
>>3658305why? learn to code
>>3658305no crpg has used any AI slop so there is that
>>3657058Careful OP, my Smite key is twinkling.>>3657061FPBP
paladins must only use hammersanything else is not a paladin
>>3658364Warhammers and Earth Breakers. Gameplay-wise, they are also the ideal weapon for dusting skellies to the ground (but not as much zombos).
>>3657058Fighter and sword saint are more based on WOTR and arguably Barbarian is pretty damn overpowered in BG3 with the right feats.
>>3658358KotC2 updated their game with tons of aisloppa recently
>>3658268>complain about tranime>tumblr
>>3658364>>3658370>should paladins use their iconic and class-defining holy sword, given to them by God to slay evil and protect the innocent?>no, they should hit things with a hammer, like an Alabama convict making gravelNGMI
>>3658370Cringe
>>3657058just embrace it anon
>>3658364>>3658610
>>3657058Paladin is not that great in Wrath unless you use mod to dual class into a paladin/crusader hybrid
>>3657065I'm actually shocked there's no Paladin companion in Kingmaker.
>>3657058>How do we stop a fixture of modern D&D in D&D adjecant vidya?This thread is dumb even for a dumb bitching thread
>>3658882Oracle is pretty much paladin, in spirit, same thing
>>3658885Valerie almost became a paladin and backed out at the last minute, its why she has some charisma
>>3657058>baldurs gate>mage thief is best utility >pathfinder>rogue is best utility>pillars of eternity>rogue is best utility how do we stop this plague?
>>3659321>uses knock spellWhoops your whole class is redundant
>>3657058Bad execution. Paladins are supposed to be OP AF until you do some evil shit and therefore your character gets nerfed into trash tier.
>>3657072I did not had that problem, i buffed i jumped in i destroyedHalf orc paladin full12lvl
>>3659321>>rogue is best utilityMeh. So few skills,most checks covered party wide.
>>3659735The key thing about paladins isn't that they're like this all time 24/7. They only become super-effective OP monsters of just retribution against Evil-aligned opponents.Outside of that, the paladin is really just a worse fighter or cleric.
>>3659804Changing “smite evil” to “lol smite whatever” was a terrible decision
>>3657058Why are paladinfags are so damn insecure in their masculinity that they feel a need to scream about it at the top of their lungs so much like some pathetic wet rag?
paladins are overpowered by design because they were the ultimate chad warriors of the dark ages, where they had to go through the training of a catholic priest (before the vow of chastity existed) and knighthood at the same time, and these guys cut down the muslims in the crusades at something insane like a 20:1 ratio because they had plate mail and swords enchanted with holy water and all the muslims had were leather armor and turbans
>>3659908And they were supposed to be limited in number because you rolled for stats before choosing a class that your stats qualified for, and so your opportunities to roll a paladin were infrequent due to the high minimum stat requirements. That and the strict alignment and roleplaying requirements were necessary to balance the class’s abilities.
>>3659910yeah, my friend's father's house rule was to roll 4d6 and drop the lowest dice, then then assign what stat to where you want, and if you actually do roll 24, you get a 19, in addition to the -10 HP bleedout rule, which is a way more common onewhen i was playing AD&D in my tweens, absolutely no one had the balls to multiclass, that was too confusing for the other 11 year olds, i was the one way ahead on the curve in math classour group ultimately broke up because we decided we wanted to do a sci fi campaign thing, and i kept saying a laser should deal 2d10, and they kept saying it should be 1d20, and the only difference is that you can't roll a 1 the other way, and i'm pulling my hair out being like augh, that's not how it works at all
wait, i'm remembering things incorrectly, paladins count as a solo class, i think the problem was they didn't want to deal with actually being lawful good, sorry, i haven't played this game in like 25 years and my dad chimped out and threw away what today on ebay are like $1000 of heavily used copies of manuals when my mom divorced him
>>3657104i despise all the class dipping that came with 3rd edition or whatever. I like the idea of people sticking with one class and serving specific, and unique, purposes, and the idea of dual class/multi-class is more interesting to me, like someone growing up a thief, but being saved by some priests and turning their life around. they don't forget what they've learned, but it's not like they keep practicing it, which makes total sense from the dual class perspective. People who can genuinely be good at multiple things (ie they live a long time) are more interestingly represented by multiclassing.
>>3657104i feel you brother, if my dad didn't chimp out and throw all my books and figurines away, i'd be playing solo campaigns against myself to kill time, where the plotline was pretty simple, it's the zombie apocalypse, get fucked, and roll with the absolute worst party combo i can think of, a wizard and a cleric at like level 5 or something with respectable gear, and treat it like an arcade game where i just see how long i can surviveno sleepno restjust 1d[howevermanypagesthemonstermanualwas] and fight
>>3659797Rogue in pathfinder only needs dex and con so you can easily pour some points into int to bump skills, and with backgrounds in wotr can cover all int and wiz skills.
>>3660174None of that makes any sense divorced from the game.
>>3660228your complaint that it makes no sense is far to vague for me to take seriously.
>>3660243It's not vague at all, you're just retarded.
>>3660257or you're don't know how to argue your point.
>>3660260The point is self-evident. Dual classing permanently arrests your progression and forces you to never use your old class until an arbitrary breakpoint or else you get no XP. Multiclassing forces you to learn from all aspects you're multiclassed in even if they're not in use. Both of those are completely fucking retarded and an obvious violation of common sense when you look at it with half a brain cell. I don't stop being able to learn programming if I go and become a plumber after the fact, nor do I destroy my plumbing progress if I take a single refresher course on programming. If I stop plumbing and go back to programming, I can keep learning programming.
I actually used to play DnD.Paladins weren't as good at the old hack n slash as Fighters. Rightfully so. They were front liners who could face scary shit because they were fearless. Then people got infected by the blight that is WoW, so they made it so you can pretty much use Smite when the fuck ever you want. So yeah at this point the only reason to care about anything resembling NU DnD is the art.
>>3660332First off, you're trying to 1-for-1 fantasy to reality, and you simply can't do that without looking retarded. Second, you can come up with any number of examples that could go either way for dual classing that in some way relates to D&D. My example was a thief-type person being saved by a cleric-type person, they become a member of whatever church and devote themselves to that god or whatever. There are parallels that can be drawn between that and the real world, even if it is a somewhat unrealistic scenario. Still, my point was never that it was an exact case scenario, only that I liked the way it worked and that it was possible to explain it in ways that make sense.Third, and for multiclass, you have to draw a line for what someone can reasonably achieve in their lifetime when it comes to certain skills or professions, and how much weight that experience has. The guy who went to college and learned programming to get some job at some game studio vs the japanese family run pottery business, learning and honing their craft over the entire length of their life, reaching a level of mastery you will never understand. Apply that to some arbitrary length of time to represent a mortal lifespan, and it's reflected in the races that have more than that amount of time to work with.
>>3660332Myself and a couple buddies tried to homebrew our way out of that bullshit.What we ended up doing was playing GURPS.
>>3660344>even if it is a somewhat unrealistic scenarioand actually, i wouldn't even say thats unrealistic, only that the amount of people it probably happens to are very few in the real world, where it might happen quite a bit more often in a place like Faerun, especially since gods are a thing.
>>3660344No, I'm not. I'm asking for the game to not be completely retarded.
>>3659735>>3659804It's more that very much like the Ranger, Paladin should NOT be one of the core classes it is in most rulesets.
>>3657063So NWN 1 OC then
>>3660424why?
>>3657058>>BG3>>Solasta>5e hence WotC's faultIn 5e, the smite is especially powerful as it's only limited by spell slots and can target anything. An extra 2d8 damage is gamebreaking early when used at the right time. >>Pathfinder WOTR>pf1e is a retroclone of 3e>pf1e abilities are mostly ignorable as the significant abilities are Smite Evil and Divine GracePaladin is not that overpowered in WotR per say. It's mostly that you can dip two levels for saves to charisma and one smite evil per day. The other thing going for it is that all of the strongest enemies are of evil alignment so smite evil is always useful when it is used. The real source of Paladin in 3e being "overpowered" is that you can dump WIS and rely on Divine Grace for Will saves rather than WIS when you use it as a 2 level dip. In essence 7 WIS and 14 CHA is the same thing as having 10 WIS for Will saves in any other class. So if you went 16 or 18 in CHA, not only are you able to get more out of any charisma class you're also running in addition to paladin abilities, you are also better off than every other build without paladin on saves by default. It just turns out that thanks to WotC and their inability to make a balanced game of any kind, there is a lot of CHA sync that can be exploited through the multiclassing. In NWN for example, one of the more powerful builds is a Bard/Blackguard/Red Dragon build because of all the sync. For someone who wanted more paladin levels or didn't want to exploit alignment changes, you could do 4 paladin > 1 sorc > 10 RDD > paladin and though you don't get very much paladin casting until epic level, the RDD still syncs extremely well with paladin as +8 to STR and +2 to CHA makes for a very strong melee character. pf1e made it even better by removing the WIS requirements for spellcasting while 3e required WIS for spellcasting.
>>3662975> A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities. The path of the paladin requires a constant heart. If a character adopts this class, she must pursue it to the exclusion of all other careers. Once she has turned off the path, she may never return. -3rd ed PHB, pg 45
i dont know about tabletop but in BG3 paladin is pretty midMonk is clearly the most OPBest martial is just a straight fighterBest ranged is bardAnd for long resters after every fight, sorc with tempest cleric dip is best.
