An RPG does not require combat in order to be interesting
>>3886870We have something called Adventure Games and Visual Novels. We all know this is just to dickride Disco Elysium.
>>3886870Depends on player's preferences.
>>3886873>We have something called Adventure Games and Visual Novels. We all know this is just to dickride Disco Elysium./threadpretty sure this thread was posted by one of the anon(s) who got mad that I correctly described DE as a non-RPG point-and-click adventure game
>>3886870True but trite
>>3886870the opposite, an RPG doesn't require story in order to be interesting
>>3886912>combat is the opposite of the storyThis perspective is why dungeon crawlers went extinct btw.
>>3886917There are more dungeon crawlers getting released every year than point and click adventure games
>>3886889You can't even substantiate your sad, retarded opinion.
>>3886870yes it does, that's where all the depth is. otherwise you just have a poorly made adventure game except with sparse uninteresting puzzles
>>3886873There are many TTRPGs in which combat is not requiredPlanescape sidelines combat I don't even need to mention DEFallout 1, combat is can be avoided entirely Citizen Sleeper, highly rated zero combat RoadwardenClear proof that combat isn't required to enjoy an RPG, it's just more difficult to implement satisfactorily
I should be able to attack anyone for any reason. Any role-playing game that doesn't have this within their supported range of expression is railroading you and can never be a great one.
>>3886988>Fallout 1, combat is can be avoided entirely>Clear proof that combat isn't required to enjoy an RPGMaybe true, but the possibility of combat does make avoiding it more satisfying.
The fact is that most people who enjoy non-combat based RPGs just like reading the stories, it's absolutely nothing to do with it being a game.
>>3887023You're forgetting exploration and crafting stuff, collecting things, and in mmorpgs there's the more social aspects.
>>3886988>Fallout 1, combat is can be avoided entirelyBro enjoys running away from rats in turn-based
>>3886988Roadwarden has meme-tier CYOA combat with hidden checks but yeah, good games>>3886870True, but an RPG with underdeveloped plot might as well include combat to run to break up the pace of talking heads
>>3887023Combat in an RPG is just one means by which to interact with the story
>>3887027Exploring to get what? More narrative.Crafting what? A tool to get further into the story.Collecting what? Items needed to get further into the story.To what purpose are these things in a normal RPG? To make you more effective at combat and to give you more options within combat, which has a structured dynamism in a way that narratives will never possess.
>>3887031The fact that you can even post this makes me think you probably aren't able to fully engage with even a basic narrative.Combat in RPGs is playing the game.
>>3887033>Combat to get to what? More narrativeI think you need to realize you're just combat brained
>>3887036Combat is enjoyable in and of itself and often a good combat system, which is intrinsically tied to character development, can elevate a game and make its narrative obsolete. You create a character and they grow in power, tailoring it your particular character fantasy and throwing them into violent situations. This is an RPG, this is why they are fun.There is nothing wrong with liking stories, it just doesn't mean you like RPGs.
>>3887040Nothing wrong with liking combat either, it just doesn't mean you like RPGs.
>>3887035Only true in RPGs like dungeon crawlers, which purposely eschew all non-combat RPG aspects
>>3887040Combat can be a fun part of an RPG, but it is demonstrably not a mandatory component
>>3887042Ah ah ah, mimicry is flattery. What do you see as the difference between RPG combat and Action game combat?>>3887043The choices and challenge offered by combat far supersede that provided by a narrative. This is a fundamental truth.
>>3887044Hey, if you want to strip fun out of a game, make it provide no challenge at all, that's on you. Some people will buy it, I"m sure, and like it entirely based on the quality of the dialogue and setting. Good luck.
>>3887040>and often a good combat systemthis is why rpgs need combat. there isn't a dialogue system or environmental exploration system that comes close to the depth of a combat ruleset.
>>3887045What do you see as the difference between RPG story and Action game story?
>>3887051Nothing.
>>3887052Nothing wrong with being combat brained. Truly.
>>3886870No one said or implied that it did.But RPG combat can also be interesting.This thread is stupid and pointless.
>>3887058>No one said or implied that it did.Bro try reading the thread before posting, might save yourself some trouble
>>3887056Are you afraid to engage with me intellectually or just lazy?
>>3887051In an action game, you aren't playing a character. You're controlling an avatar, issuing orders to interact with the game's mechanics. If there's any kind of narrative, it's a background.In a roleplaying game, the character is not an avatar, they are a viewpoint and you immerse yourself within them to become them and interact with their world as them. The narrative isn't a background, it's the primary purpose of the experience.Yes, this means that Skyrim is an action adventure game, not an RPG.
>>3887050Pretty much, you follow the dialogue tree to its developer offered conclusions, and even with oft quoted "AI responses will save us" well then it isn't a game, with the necessary rules, so much as playing with a toy.
>>3887062>In a roleplaying game, the character is not an avatarThis man never played Ultima.
>>3887062>interact with their world as themHow does an RPG narrative differ from a point and click narrative or a CYOA narrative?
>>3887066games are a toy
>>3887061You haven't said anything interesting.
>>3887070No.>>3887073Coward.
>>3887074what is the distinction between a toy and a game?
>>3887076Rules and win conditions.
>>3887077so if an RPG has rules and win conditions without combat then it's still a game and not a toy, unlike what this guy was saying>>3887066
>>3887086You're misunderstanding here, I was saying adding AI responses makes it a toy, because then it's adapting to you and not following a prewritten set of rules and conditions. Though this can be fixed by highly structuring the AI's prompt, but then at that point, it's back to being less interesting, in the sense of the amount of variables and systems and player choices, than combat.
It's kinda fascinating, and telling, that storyfags are finding it harder to win a battle of words than a combatfag.
>>3887094well it's expected for someone used to simple dialogue trees. they don't have an option labeled [rhetoric] on 4chan
>>3887069"RPG" is a category. Point-and-click and CYOA were sub-groups within that category that existed for a short time due to limitations of technology.
>>3887094what is the battle exactly?good non-combat RPGs exist, everything else is down to preference
>>3887059I am not your "bro". You spend too much time listening to retarded ebonics on TikTok and in your trashy high school.
>>3887097point and click and CYOA still exist
>>3887099You spend too much time feeding your ego than engaging with the topic (which will be further evidenced again in your next post, if you make one)
>>3887097Categorically false.
>>3887098>good non-combat RPGs existMy argument is that they aren't considered good because they are RPGs.
One thing that initially shocked me is games like Dota, where some people literally just support. It shocked me people would be so fucking gay they'd choose to not be the hero. So ya, there likely is a very large market for gays and women to just do things like brush their pony's hair and cook cozy food. Shits gay though.
>>3887104Logistical support is a vital function of battle, man-child. Your perspective is that of the low IQ grunt and not a general. Please refrain from posting here.
>>3887097point and click and cyoa are in the adventure game category. not sure what you're smoking
>>3887103the RPGs aren't considered good because they are RPGs...
>>3887104A bit retarded, a bit based.
>>3887109CYOA has stats, inventory management, dice rolls, and combat
>>3887110How do you enjoy narratives if you can't infer the meaning of a simple statement, or is it because we are talking in English? Real question.
>>3887107Did I say it wasn't you fucking retard. Learn to read. I said it shocked me that people, playing a GAME, don't like being the hero, and instead choose a role of support. Like you're literally just helping out someone else do something cool. I'm just saying I didn't see that one coming. But now that I have, it makes sense, and hence Pony RPG will probably be trending on Steam soon, once the nerds figure it out and give it real attention.
>>3887100>point and click adventure games still existName one from the last 10 years besides disco elysium
>>3887112Not necessarily, they can, and at that point they are usually called "game books". A big problem is that younger people don't understand any of these labels because you got them all dumped on you by marketeers and didn't see them spring up.
>>3887114There is no hero in battle, except in childish movies and narratives. Battles are won by people working together.You are a low IQ cuckold.
>>3887114>Like you're literally just helping out someone else do something cool. I'm just saying I didn't see that one coming. But now that I have, it makes senseYeah, isn't dota a team game after all
>>3887115StrangelandI do see what you did there.
>>3887118"There is no hero in battle"Ok queer. What the fuck is this even supposed to mean? You should let Winters know, tell him to throw this letter away. No hero's after all. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6TrbOexkUc
>>3887122Any good soldier would be the first to tell you that he was able to accomplish what he did through support.Low IQ cuckold.
>>3887113the statement doesn't make any logical sense
>>3887120I had not heard of that one. Your counterexample is valid, and you have satisfied my thinly veiled rhetorical question.
>>3887119Previous games had different classes. Like Battlefront had front line people, but then also pilots, heavy weaponry dudes, snipers ect, everyone was a specialized hero basically. Or games that had healers were generally controlled by the same player who also played the hero. I'm not saying dota was the first, it probably always existed in tabletop games and probably WOW which I haven't played, It's just the first time I noticed a player who exists to do nothing heroic directly. My first thought was, who the fuck would do that. Well, then I learned that the majority of people fear being the hero.
>>3887123What a fucking faggot lmao. You made your point, I think you're gay, let's move on.
>>3887115there are indie point and click games by the bucket every year
>>3887126Sounds to me more like some fear not being the hero.
>>3887126>It's just the first time I noticed a player who exists to do nothing heroic directly. My first thought was, who the fuck would do that.I can understand that
>>3887124It does. The games are loved for the qualities that aren't specific to RPGs. Dialogue and setting.
>>3887128See, you wouldn't be prone to flee from this verbal battle if you had some support.Low IQ emasculate. >>3887130Protagonist syndrome. Common with small men.
>>3887132Is combat specific to RPGs?
>>3887130Possibly the gayest sentence I've ever read.
>>3887135RPG combat is specific to RPGs and entirely different than action game combat or strategy game combat or platformer combat or SHMUP combat or fighting game combat or beat em' up combat.
>>3887134There's nothing to flee. You said combat had no hero's. I proved you wrong. You then shifted the goal posts. Like a bitch you think continuing to post means you win, but you've already been logically broken. You think continuing to talk is a victory because when you whined to your mommy she just ignored it and you took that as a win (really she fucking hated what a wimp she raised). You're infantile and weak and already defeated. I moved on, but you're attracted to winners so you continue to engage me. All of this is happening so quickly you don't pick up on any of it directly, you just have a sense you want to blow me and don't know why so you continue to flirtatiously attack me.
>>3887138>RPG combat is specific to RPGsRPG non-combat characteristics are specific to RPGsdo you see how pointless this is?
>>3887140>you're attracted to winners>you want to blow me>so you continue to flirtatiously attack meNow that's the gayest post I've read today.I now accept that your latent homosexuality is creating this insecurity in you, that sees supporting your brothers on the battefield as not being heroic.
>>3887142No, this is very pointed.>RPG non-combat characteristics are specific to RPGsWhat specific RPG non-combat characteristics do these good non-combat RPGs possess?
>>3887146You're quick to accept the false reality that I'm gay because you hope it's one step closer to blowing me. Queer.
>>3887152No, I think it's because you keep talking about faggotry and seeing it everywhere.
>>3887150noting that none of the below are strictly mandatory:companion/party managementcharacter stat progression to challenge higher-level mechanical challengesa detailed item systembranching queststhe ability to express character identityability to affect the narrative, including interactions with reputation and personal relationshipsnone of these require combat
>>3887153You really felt a need to correct me? Really? If someone said that to me I'd just close the app/forum/whatever. But you still keep going. That's how I know you're gay. This will be my last post on the topic of your obvious feelings for me, I think others will know will see the truth as well.
>>3887150So you admit you've never played a non-combat RPG. Glad we got that admission out of you, but it was neither surprising nor worth the effort.
>>3887153>>3887158>>3887159give it a rest guys
>>3887157>companion/party managementStrategy games have this and it's less interesting without combat.>character stat progression to challenge higher-level mechanical challengesDoes this mean "skill checks"?>a detailed item systemNot found in non-combat RPGs, because good itemization is almost always in service of combat.>branching questsHinges on enjoying the writing. Could be in an adventure game.>the ability to express character identityHinges on enjoying the writing. Could be in an adventure game.>ability to affect the narrative, including interactions with reputation and personal relationshipsHinges on enjoying the writing. Could be in an adventure game.People enjoy non-combat RPGs because of stylistic and artistic non-game reasons.
>>3887159Weak.
I do think MMO's especially need to figure out non combat fun. They need to figure out players living a cozy existence if they choose too. In Anime the non hero's are often store owners or blacksmiths. In games this is harder because there's not an easy way to just make being a blacksmith fun. Dating of some sort could be one possible idea. It's a tough one. Killing stuff just works so well.
>>3887173Why call it an RPG? It's just Second Life at that point, a life simulation, and not a "game".
>>3887173>there's not an easy way to just make being a blacksmith funThat's because the point of being a blacksmith is to make items for combat. You get some gold if you sell items, but what's there to do with that gold? Buy items that are used for killing things.
>>3887174I honestly hate all of you mother fuckers so much. I don't understand how my interests align with such a reprehensible lot. I'm trying to solve game play issues for the next billion dollar idea and you're just sitting here "muh rpg categorizations tho" Fucking hell.
>>3887176Right, the problem is easy to understand. The solution might be user generated content. Like user swords and shit. Beauty and recognition would be respected and worthwhile. But then that'll become too competitive and only a few could really contribute. Whereas again anyone can jump into combat. Just spit ballin here.
>>3887178No game has ever really tried to make Blacksmithing insteresting. Furthest we got was changing pommels and shit but then you can usually ONLY make swords and the changes are statshit and not really meaningful like different movesets if your blade is choppy with balance at the head vs stabby balance at the base. If it's flexible so better in some ways or stiff and better in others. All of this with autistic, but fun mechanics of hammering iron and/or melting bronze.
>>3887173Star Wars galaxies had non combat classes like merchant, mayor, musician, and made them fun.Some people just socialized and buffed others while chatting in town.You could use money just to buy raw resources for crafting and never actually fight a thing while building structures and shops.
>>3887176Well.... aaaaaaackshually, blacksmiths made nails and hinges and horse shoes, really. Blacksmiths were machines that made stupid boring tools that society needed.There's a reason people fantasize about being adventurers. No one fantasizes about working a cash register at McDonald's, which is the equivalent of what a medieval blacksmith was. It was boring, rote, menial, manual labor. It was not sexy. Men didn't look like Instagram thots with slutty low-cut tunics to show their chest hair. They looked like José your school's janitor while he's sweaty and tired from mopping bathrooms all day.RPGs glamorize all kinds of shit to a ridiculous degree. Sure you need someone to forge weapons sometimes. But the vast, vast majority of blacksmiths never made a weapon or armor in their lives, and wouldn't have known how to make a good one. A knife or a sharp slab of metal was what most bandits and militia had, if they weren't gonna use their dad's woodaxe or a spear. Or their family's hunting bow.Again, I cannot stress this enough, blacksmiths did not look like Perrin from the Wheel Of Time.
>>3887177
>>3887172You got more effort than you deserved.
>>3887191and then they added jedi
>>3887192Well ackshually we are talking about games, not some irrelevant medieval villages blacksmith, artard. Blacksmiths make powerful magic items.
>>3887177>I'm trying to solve game play issues for the next billion dollar ideaUh huh.>"muh rpg categorizations tho" Almost like that's the point of the thread and the very board.
>>3887190Vintage Story tries.
>>3887199Why do games have blacksmiths? Where's that word even come from? Where's the concept come from? Why not call 'em thingamuhboppers and they whoopity doop the shoop?The reason "blacksmith" isn't an adventurer is indeed because the word for an adventurer is adventurer. No one enjoys playing Bankers & Businessmen. Spreadsheets & Stats isn't a fun game.Go get a fucking job if you think otherwise.
>>3887215>Spreadsheets & Stats isn't a fun game.where do you think you are?
>>3887215>>3887222>Spreadsheets & Stats isn't a fun gameThis. Literally every RPG is just spreadsheets and stats.
>>3887215>>3887201Suck my fat oneAlso business games can be very fun.
>>3887222Where do you think YOU are??>>3887232No.>>3887239Your tiny little deformed winky can't even get within half a mile of a school.If you enjoy business simulators, that's your own taste and it has nothing to do with RPGs.
>>3887260>Where do you think YOU are??RPGs are predicated upon tables of values, and any in-depth discussion on an RPG will be regarding the NUMBERS you filthy casual
>>3886870>It is perfectly fine to talk about removing core staples of the genre and say that it can function fine without it but one can't make any attempt to define an RPG.Disco Elysium isn't a good RPG. It is rather mediocre as an adventure game. Pentiment isn't an RPG but it is a better game overall compared to Disco Elysium.
>>3887295Disco Elysium has combat though, both ranged and melee
>>3887303It does not.
>>3887239Yes, I also like non-RPG games. I don't know why you people think RPG=good. It's fine to make and enjoy non-RPG games.
>>3887305No, it absolutely doesYou have combat statsYou roll to hitYou have HPCombat, objectively
>>3887310No.
>>3887313I accept your spiteful concession
>>3887314Cool.Now stop posting.
God DAMN Disco Elysium fans are insecure as fuck about liking that game. Even if you tell them that you had fun playing it and you liked the game, the seethe is fucking endless when you point out that it's not an RPG, it's a point-and-click adventure game.
>>3887323can you objectively prove it's not an RPG?
>>3887329yes but you'll bitch about the criteria
>>3887323What I don't get is why it matters to them so much. The game isn't better or worse if it's called an RPG or not. I really think some people think the RPG label is a mark of honor or something for vidya, which is crazy.
>>3887335Imo, it's younger anons who grew up hearing all the praise PS:T got online, and want "their PS:T"
>>3887104If you had said LoL I'd agree, or any hero shooter. TF2 medic is the gayest shit ever for example. But Dota? Supports go around killing people and fighting people all game, and you can be cool shit like a lich or a shadow demon. In fact, that's what every role but carry can do, fight other people all game. Carries spend the whole game playing gay pve and running away like a bitch because they have social anxiety and can only interact with humans once, at the end of the game when they finish their retarded last hit minigame and shit's already over anyway.
>>3887173Doesn't EVE Online do shit like that?
>>3887173A friend who played mostly multiplayer competitive games, and skips story and cutscenes, started playing MMORPGs.. and I was surprised to hear him say he was all about crafting.
>>3886870True. If anything, staying more accurate to tabletop would mean reducing combat in general. Everyone groans when a single encounter basically takes half the evening to play out at the table.
