>>23392222I think living people are very good experts on what happens after death.
>>23392266If only we could use necromancy to ask the dead what happens after death
>>23392222My family comes from a small town in the mountains of Italy. In the middle of the town is a beautiful church built over 400 years ago by people that wanted us to have it, my direct ancestors.
>>23392280Luke 16:31
>>23392344some people who have been in a temporary death have said there was nothing once they were dead
>>23392498"Temporary dead" isn't a thing. Someone's heart stopped functioning, that's not dead.
>>23392516then what constitutes a real death? When the brain dies?
>>23392521That's when you're legally dead. I don't know what's biological death, I guess when it's all organs are dead.
>>23392533I see, that makes more sense.that being said, do you perhaps have any argument on the matter of this thread? I want to hear different opinions on this topic
>>23392542I don't start from believing in an afterlife. I believe in a creator, God, the church, the Bible, the church teachings on the afterlife, etc., if these things are true, then an afterlife is true. I can't point to a single irrefutable proof of it because it's not a phenomenon that happens in nature like gravity where you can see that an apple falls to the ground. It's a tacit knowledge from understanding over time, not something that can I could formalize in text.
>>23392577I seeIn this case, why do you believe in God, in the church, et cetera? sorry if I am misunderstanding your post and assuming you are explaining why there isnt a formal text proof to afterlife, when in reality you could be explaining the absence of formal text proof for your beliefs in general
>>23392969Because of my lived experiences my education in school, my pursuit in understanding the world, growing up in a religious household, going to church, reading the Bible, reading Catholic philosophers, etc. Basically the accumulation of everything in my life, my brain calculating all these probabilities leads me to consider these as more likely the truth than otherwise, this is why I said it's tacit knowledge, not something that you could point to one thing as simple as a falling apple, but that might be a bad analogy because the concept gravity and how we came to understand it isn't that simple, and nothing in life is really logically certain only probabilistically.
I'm a theistI don't think there's any reason to think that the afterlife exists besides the problem of EvilI think God has instituted the afterlife in order to rectify injustices in this life For example murder victims
Reincarnation is a fact, and we can observe the effects of it in multiple ways such as in pic related.
>>23393042but in this case, what use would afterlife have for a person who, in a hypothetical scenario, never suffered any injustices?
>>23392222The Myth of an Afterlife: The Case against Life After Death is a whole book that tries to deboonk the idea of an afterlife.
John 3:161 Thessalonians 4:13-18All of Revelation
>>23392516So NDEs arent real?
>>23393667You mean *near* death experiences? Of course they're real, that's not controversial, but some people think it's subjective like a dream and it's impossible for the things they experience to have objectively happened. I think there's a possibility (because God could've just permitted someone to experience something supernatural) but improbability that any of them actually happened (especially all of them) like anyone who claims to have had any mystical experience, that's why the church does investigations.
>>23393247this only makes sense if you are already a theist
The gate is narrow. 99.9% of humans who ever lived are extinguished at death "to dust they shall return" Only those who intentionally suffer and go all the way in pursuit of kindling a 'soul' within themselves can hope for some continuation of existence beyond the grave. It is a zero sum game, a purely biological process. "Man, know thyself" in a literal sense. The tiny minority who figure out how the human organism works and how an astral body can be created are the only ones with any hope of the afterlife. Mindless religious cattle are sadly doomed to be eternally extinguished
>>23392222As in if you approve of life after death?Like life after death exists but you oppose the phenomenon?
>>23394590sorry if I made it confusing. I meant a discussion about wether an after life is real or not
>>23394579>how an astral body can be created are the only ones with any hope of the afterlifeinteresting. how is this achievable
>>23392222There has to be life after death because I'm scared and don't want my life to end
bump
I think the real question is: Is there sentience after death. The answer is no. When you die, all that you were, your hopes, your loves, your dreams, are gone. There is absolutely no evidence to support the idea of post death sentience. So treat people with kindness now, be honest, and genuine now, because tomorrow is promised to no one. All the strife and anguish in the world caused by organized religion is just selfish people trying to gain power over others. Heaven is a myth that the horrible selfish people propagate so that they can justify all their misdeeds in their final moments get absolution and continue on to paradise.
Where is the NDE poster when you need him?
>>23395249Theres no evidence for post life sentience, but theres no evidence for anything for after life
>>23392222>AgainstPhenomenology>ForThat feeling in the back of your mind that there has to be more to life than this. That leap of faith.
>>23395249What is phenomenologically different between losing your explicit memory and dying (at least in the way you describe)? My answer: there is none.I think after we die, we lose *connection* to our explicit memory, but the experiential continuum continues on. This could happen now even.Watch my "My Stroke of Insight" with Jill Bolte. She talked about experiencing extreme retrograde amnesia and can no longer identify photos of her family. There is a phenomenological gap between her present personal identity and the past.
>>23392222There’s no good logical arguments for life after death. The only thing that can lead you to think of such a thing is the inability to detach from your human consciousness into the state of pure nothingness; you just can’t understand the state of being dead, being nothing. The only “argument” for theism isn’t an argument, but rather an intuition, a feeling that there has to be a life after death, stemming from the inability to detach from the human element of life into death. Obviously, there is no reason to rationally think that you will survive your own death, but the intuition is always prevalent.
>argumentI don't need one. I just know.
>>23396112but how can we know there is truly "nothing" after death? the possibilities of what can happen are infinite, dont you agree?
>>23396112>>23397505Neither of you have heard the punchline to that joke?Is there life after death?The question is fruitless, and beyond that irrelevant.Arguing for either is the funniest wild goose hunt to watch someone go down.You get some who panic, some who find faith, others who delve deep with the tools of science.All of these people are the punchline, it's fucking hilarious.
>>23393076haha ok bud
>>23393202and? thoughts?
Yes because I get the sense that there is more to existence than we have been shown, based on little glimpses here and there
>>23397732examples of those little glimpses?
>>23392222Depends if you believe in life before death, after death, or both before and after death. Is eternal life comparable to temporal life at all? Or is it something else entirely? I.e. outside space and time? You be the judge.
Best argument against the afterlife: >zero scientific evidence of its existence despite everyone on earth wanting it to be real Best argument for the afterlife:>no but I had a dream one time and saw it!
>>23397741synchronicities... premonitions... archetypes
>>23397753>>zero scientific evidence of its existence despite everyone on earth wanting it to be realDo you actually know this for a fact or are you just assuming. Have you actually looked into it?
>>23397782nta, but Im pretty sure he means empirical evidence, as we cannot truly observe what happens after death
>>23392222>>23392266>>23393202>>23393667>>23393728>>23394608>>23396112>>23397753There is a tremendous amount of evidence for an afterlife. Indeed, NDEs are seriously irrefutable proof that heaven really is awaiting us all because (1) people see things during their NDEs when they are out of their bodies that they should not be able to under the assumption that the brain creates consciousness, and (2) anyone can have an NDE and everyone is convinced by it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00ibBGZp7oSo every atheist or materialist or agnostic would be too if they had an NDE, so pic related is literally irrefutable proof of life after death. As one NDEr pointed out:>"I'm still trying to fit it in with this dream that I'm walking around in, in this world. The reality of the experience is undeniable. This world that we live in, this game that we play called life is almost a phantom in comparison to the reality of that."If NDEs were hallucinations then extreme atheists and neuroscientists who had NDEs would agree that they were halluinations after having them. But the opposite happens as NDEs convince every skeptic when they have a really deep NDE themselves.The problem is that pseudoskeptics will not read the literature on NDEs and pretend it does not exist with their heads 15 miles deep into the sand. But everyone who either (1) had an NDE or (2) read the scholarly literature on NDEs (like pic related or Chris Carters book "Science and the Near-Death Experience", or "The Self Does Not Die") is convinced by it.
>>23398337What do you think of reincarnation NDEanon?
>>23398337Can you pick and recommend one of those books anon?
>2 books postedThis thread is shit.You.Yes, (You).Do you believe in the afterlife?Post the book(s) that convinced you.I don't believe in it.The Selfish Gene, When Prophecy Fails, The Last Messiah, The Pentateuch, Ecclesiastes, The New Testament (tips fedora).Non book readers are not invited.
>>23398477can you summarize why you dont believe?
>>23398477Yeah life exists after death, it's just another state.The Magus of Java is a good read. The title says the man is Taoist, but he's really not. It was just published before the internet was big, so many people wouldn't know the intricacies of Chinese culture and philosophy. The whole premise of the book is that a kung fu master, through a lifetime of meditation, retained enough yang energy to still manifest himself as a spirit and navigate this world. He taught a single man in the same art that allowed him this boon, and that man tried teaching many others to become like him. It is basically internal alchemy, and the theory has been discussed by many sages and philosophers in the East. It has no basis in religious talk, just plain stuff you can directly experience by being taught by a master.
just dont cope and accept your fate in peace
>>23400366cool, gonna try to find a copy of this book. Is it a easy read?>>23398477I'm planning on read the selfish gene, but right now I am reading The Last Superstiton, by Edward Feser. It is kinda of a response to some of the claims made by "new atheists", like Dawkins
last bump
Do you remember the time before your birth? No? That's case closed in my opinion.
assuming that the state of being which occurs after death is exactly the same as that which occurs before birth, there is no reason to believe that you won't be born again into this world.
>>23401553there is no reason to assume pre birth and post death are equal states
>>23401709then there is no reason to believe that there is nothing after death.
>>23401856I agree
>>23392222Europeans tend do believe there's nothing before birth, so they're afraid there'll be nothing after death.Reincarnationists fear death for the opposite reason.
>>23392222One argument against it is that things like brain damage can severely alter your personality. If everything you are can be changed by damage to your material body, then where's the "Ghost in the Machine?"
Out of all the people who have died in the past, not one of them has been able to communicate with the living saying "hey its me" or whatever. You will be in the same state as you were before you were born
I don't really understand how anyone can believe in eternal life. You realize how long that is right? What happens after 6 billion years when you are just tired of existing in the afterlife
I seen the afterlife in my dream. I know people will laugh but for me that is enough evidence
How do atheists not go insane at the thought of there being nothing after death, that you wont experience anything ever again? To me the idea just seems irrational
>>23403048Nothingness is preferable to the alternative of writhing in indescribable agony in fire, clawing at your skin and the people around you, screaming at the top of your lungs but being unable to hear yourself over the cacophony of anguished screams and cries of pain, where 99% of people who have ever lived go after death to suffer endlessly for all of eternity, doesn't it?
>>23402661>has direct revelation of the afterlife>doesn't share it with his fellow anonswow
>>23403048Why is it irrational just because it sucks? Death as end of consciousness just makes the most sense to me. The correlation between the brain and the mind is so strong that it's just a very small leap to assume causation. It also seems that I was dead before I was born and there is dreamless sleep every night. It's a very plausible view to me.
>>23393042There is a common difference in thinking between those who have a bias towards "return to the mean" and those who have a bias towards "trend following".I am in the latter camp. I don't think the Christian God is evil but it seems most intuitive to me that his creation reflects who he is and that things will continue more or less as they are now. Things in this world don't conform to our wishes, so whatever happens after death probably doesn't either.
>>23403232>>23403232It is also preferable to existing in some incomprehensible LSD/DMT-like reality where you are no longer human at all and you're a sentient pulse of light traveling through the machine elve's palace walls.And preferable to being reincarnated as random living beings over and over again, living and dying and living and dying.And preferable to repeating this exact same life over and over again.And preferable to this being a simulation fed directly into your brain by a third party.And preferable to existing forever just to praise the name of god like a braindead drugged out mental patient.And preferable to existing forever stuck in a house made of gold with 72 virgins.Although not gonna lie that last one would at least be fun for the first million years or so.
>>23392498There’s many who say the opposite. I believe when you’re dreaming you are visiting an astral plane much like one our soul will go when we die.
>>23403261>It is also preferable to existing in some incomprehensible LSD/DMT-like reality where you are no longer human at all and you're a sentient pulse of light traveling through the machine elve's palace walls.I was thinking about what the afterlife might look like if it exists and something like this seemed the most plausible.My reasoning is that our senses and most of our thinking are only useful in the context of the material world, shaped by evolution. There is nothing magical about seeing or hearing, it's just signal processing for light waves and small changes in air pressure (sound waves) so why would anything like this exist in an immaterial plane? If there is an afterlife it would probably be completelly different from any experience on earth.
>>23392222Dont sweat about it. You are in a vessel that can only comprehend mortal life and nothing more. Life and death are beyond us. Always have been.>>23395249>think the real question is: Is there sentience after death. The answer is no. And that's a good thing. Why would you want to stick around forever with your flawed and limited current self? You only want to stick around with (You) because that's all you ever know. >>23396112>There’s no good logical arguments for life after That's true. The only thing we can do is what we do best; we can measure it.>>23397565>The question is fruitless, and beyond that irrelevant. Eh, its not that fruitless, and its in our nature to ask questions like that. The usual responses to this question are usually these categories of people.>>23398337>There is a tremendous amount of evidence for an afterlife.I still have my doubts. As far as Im concerned, all these experiences are part of our body's mechanism to "ease us to a life after death". People see that white light in the end because our eyes are one of the last organs that shut down, and then we get all kinds of experiences connected to our way of living, because parts of our brain flare up and shut down. Nobody has returned from true death to tell the story.
Plato's Theory of Recollection really drove the point for me
Life is a dream.
>>23403279>Dont sweat about it. You are in a vessel that can only comprehend mortal life and nothing more. Life and death are beyond us. Always have been.exactly my thoughts
>>23392222I've seen people die and I'm still alive. It's pretty clear that life keeps going after you die.
>>23392533Only reason you die when your organs fail is because your brain can't keep running anymore. Most every death is just asphyxiation with extra steps.
>>23392222Because if you make a lot of coats the coat maker is still alive even if his coats are dirtied and destroyedT. Socrates
>>23405360unless all the ones that died are NPC
>>23392498This is only an argument against a spiritual afterlife. All the Abrahamic religions teach that life is linked to your body, and the afterlife requires a physical resurrection followed by becoming immortal. Admittedly stretching the definition of the word "afterlife".
>>23401550If I smashed your head in with a brick you would forget what happened yesterday but those events still happened, it's only your ability to recall them that changed.
