How common was the use of boats in the Neolithic and Bronze Age?We know that large ships became a thing much later, but bearing in mind that for example the Minoans arrived in Crete somehow it is logical to think that at least boats were more accessible. I can go further, like the eef arriving in the British Isles. Or Are the boats much older than that?
>>16587224we have evidence of canoes from the upper paleolithic, it's not really something "phenomenal", I was making boats when I was 14 years old.I see that you make a mistake on the EEF issue of Brittany. Many forget that the main reason they were "genocidal" so quickly was because the EEF on the island was humiliatingly low, it's not difficult to decimate a population with super low numbers. the EEF really were not that mobile and did not have colonization and migration as a primary model.
>>16587224Very common. Neolithic farmers colonized and brought animals to Cyprus, the Aegean islands, Sicily, Ustica, Lampedusa, Malta, the Tuscan archipelago, Corsica, Sardinia, Tunisia (from Sicily), Morocco, from Iberia, the British islands, Orkney islands, Sheetland
>>16587224>>16588424>>16587234The EEF were pretty mobile. For instance Neolithic Iberians were importing Sicilian amber, the shortest path from Sicily to Southern Iberia is at least 2000 km. EEF were the first to set up transmarine obsidian trade from Sardinia, Pantelleria, Lipari and Palmarola to the mainland, with obsidian sometimes traveling for over 2000 km. They were the first to set up alpine jade axe long distance trade networks with it reaching as far West as Ireland and as far East as the Aegean
>>16588445>>16587224>>16588445Obsidian is found only in those 4 green triangles, all located in islands, but it was exported to all over the mainland and to other islands, see all those black dots
>>16588449
>>16588450
>>16588454
>>16587224Depend where, extremely common in south east asia
>>16588457A Rinaldone culture tomb ( c. 3000 BC) in Rome with goods coming from all over the place: copper from the Aegean, while the ax type itself being Levantine, flint from South Italy, silver from Sardinia, stone beads from North Italy
>>16588487Some motifs in Orkney seem to be straight copies from monuments in Ireland
>>16588493Ivory items from Africa, ostrich eggs etc were often used in South Iberia EEF graves dating to the Late Neolithic and copper age, along with amber from very far away, as stated above
>>16588495"French" pottery in Neolithic Britain, the EEF that settled the British isles came from France, unsurprisingly
>>16588515Mobility across the Neolithic British islands
>>16588520Axes made with Irish porcenalite were exported to many parts of Britain
>>16588523>>16587224In the Neolithic site of Çukuriçi Höyük, on the West coast of Anatolia, deep sea fishing was a common practice:"The maritime character of this society is indicated by deep-sea fish, recovered for the first time, which suggests a sea voyage across the borders of the Aegean. Beside contacts with the Aegean, proven by the use of Melian Obsidian, contact with East Anatolia, Mesopotamia and the Near East also existed. A specialization in craftsmanship of the people settling here can be seen, among other things, in the high-quality ceramic vessels and the chopped stone tools, which were predominantly made from imported obsidian""Very often fish were on the menu, as the remains of a tuna fillet on a floor prove."
>>16588528>>16587224The canoes found in the Early Neolithic site of La Marmotta, in Central Italy, are much bigger than the previously known Mesolithic canoes. They also seem to have been quite more complex: they were strenghtened with ribs, and in some of them several wooden boards were found. These wooden boards were originally connected to the boats through mortise and tenon joints. they were perforated with circular holes, perhaps to fasten the sail - in that case they'd be the oldest sail powered boats known - or to connect them with an additional outrigger canoe, such as it's still seen in the boats Indian and Pacific ocean, to give them more stability. A shaft found inside the largest of the canoes seems to support the idea that they accomodated masts for sails, and fragments of a textiles, perhaps the sail, where found near the canoes.Obsidian from the islands of Pantelleria and Lipari was found in the Neolithic village, reinforcing the idea that these canoes were used not just in the lake and rivers but also to navigate the sea.
>>16588548Oars and paddles were found near the pirogues, along with the aforementioned perforated wooden boards.
>>16588555Some terracotta models of the pirogues were found in the same site, one of them seems to depict a more "elaborate" type of boat, perhaps a skinboat
>>16588560The Neolithic monuments of Britian and Ireland share many features with those of Brittany
>>16588594
>>16588596Influence from Orkney to Ireland in the Neolithic, including pottery
>>16588603Paintings of boats in a cave site in Gibraltar, which according to the latest studies might date to the 4th millennium BC, considering that amber from Sicily was imported to Iberia since the 5th millennium BC, and that African ivory and ostrich eggs were present around that same time, or that the cardium pottery people colonized Morocco from Spain in the 6th millennium BC, it wouldn't be too suprising if these depictions were actually that oldSource:¿EMBARCACIONES DEL IV MILENIO A.C. EN EL ESTRECHO DE GIBRALTAR?REFORZANDO EL DEBATE SOBRE LAS PINTURAS DEL ABRIGO DE LA LAJA ALTAA PARTIR DE LAS NUEVAS PROPUESTAS CRONOLÓGICAS¿BOATS FROM THE 4TH MILLENNIUM BC IN THE STRAIT OF GIBRALTAR?REINFORCING THE DEBATE OF LAJA ALTA ROCK SHELTER PAINTINGSBASED ON THE NEW CHRONOLOGICAL PROPOSALS
>>16588642Malta and Sicily in the Neolithic:Although the islanders appear to have used local chert to fashion lithics, this was supplemented with chert from Sicily (Chatzimpaloglou, French, Pedley, & Stoddart, 2020; Groucutt, 2022), obsidian from Lipari, and occasionally Pantelleria (Tykot, 1996, p. 58). Ties between Malta and its neighbour are best observed in the pottery record.The Għar Dalam pottery was proposed as a local variant of the southern mainland Italian and Sicilian Stentinello ware, a derivative of Impressed Ware (Bernabò Brea, 1950, p. 26; Debono Spiteri, 2012, p. 37; Giannitrapani, 1997, p. 204; Malone, 2003, p. 275)Malta seems to have retained material links with Sicily. The lithic evidence associated with Skorba pottery shows that imports of Sicilian flint and obsidian from Lipari and Pantelleria continued (Trump, 2015, p. 51; Vella, 2008a,b,c, 2016).Trump (2015, p. 51) noted another fine ware (Figure 12b), which he observed at the sites of Skorba and Santa Verna. However, recent excavations show that it is also present at Ġgantija and Taċ-Ċawla, both in Gozo (Brogan et al., 2020b; Malone et al., 2020d). This pottery has incised decorations which closely parallel Sicily’s inscribed triangle motifs of the Trefontane pottery (Cultraro, 2008). The sherds of this incised pottery from Santa Verna and Skorba may represent either genuine Sicilian imports or a local imitation of the Trefontane ware
>>16588663Żebbuġ Phase (3800–3600 BCE) The thin section revealed a fossil-rich matrix tempered with grog and organic matter and had rare quartz grains (Barone et al., 2015, p. 25). When the XRF results were compared with Sicilian and Maltese potsherds and clays, it was suggested that the jar was of Maltese origin, suggesting that Maltese goods had been imported into Sicily (Barone et al., 2015, p. 29). This shows that there were networks where goods circulated between the Maltese Islands and at least parts of Sicily (Malone, Chatzimpaloglou, & Brogan, 2020c, pp. 445–446; McLaughlin et al., 2020b, p. 310).
>>16588665Animals transported overseas to Cyprus in 8000 BC, this was replicated in many other islands during the Neolithic expansion
>>16588714Pottery from Corsica and the Tuscan archipelago exported to Liguria around 4000 BC
>>16588722Stentinello type pottery from Sicily (5000-4000 BC) found in Lampedusa, 215 km from Sicily across the sea
>>16588733Actually it's 280 kmA Mesolithic man from Vatses, in the island of Astypalaia in the Aegean, isotopic analysis revealed that he was born on a different island or in the mainland. Genetically he resembled the inhabitants of Mesolithic Anatolia, his injuries are also comaptible with those of people involved in aquatic activities.
>>16588809Jadeite axes found in Neolithic sites in Donegal and Westmeath (Ireland) imported from North Italy
>>16589147Anthropological evidence for Neolithic Levantine men taking place in maritme activies such as paddling boats, evidence from the coastal site of Atlit Yam:The insertion site for the costoclavicular ligament and the pectoralis major in Atlit Yam males had the highest MSM scores among theNeolithic populations . The use of this muscle and ligament is consistent with movements requiring an alternating rotary motion of the shoulder girdle, a movement that has been interpreted as the likely result of using a double-bladed paddle in a boat. The same use of this specific muscle and ligament was reported for two Alaskan Eskimo populations for whom kayaking, using a double-bladed paddle, was a common activity (Steen and Lane, 1998; Hawkey and Merbs, 1995). Other muscles involved with kayaking activity (the deltoideus, biceps brachii, and triceps brachii; Steen and Lane, 1998), are also overutilized in Atlit-Yam males compared to other Neolithic populations (Fig. 9). These muscles are used in lifting and lowering the paddle out of and into the water, as well as straightening and bending the elbow in order to return the paddle to ready position (Steen and Lane, 1998). Atlit-Yam is a submerged Pre-Pottery Neolithic site off the Mediterranean coast of Israel (Galili et al., 1993).
>>16588548>>16588495Interesting.
>>16587224Boats used for rivers, lakes, and costal waters have been in use since prehistory. Its like the domestic dog, something the neolithic humans had at their disposal. Navigation across large bodies of water would come until far later.
>>16587224>How common was the use of boats in the Neolithic and Bronze Age?Long distance maritime travel has been going on far longer then suspected, though it was happening in a series of short trips with nights spent on shore.
>>16590106
>>16587224Homo erectus made boats. That's how they were able to get to the island of Flores and the Australian aborigines used boats to get to Australia and new Guinea 40,000 years ago
Sewn boats dating to the bronze age were found in England, a big one at Dover, and 3 at Ferriby.
>>16590233
>>16590233>>16590238super cool, thanks for posting
>>16590238Sewn boat from Zambratija, Croatia, 12th-10th century BC, along with the Uluburun shipwreck it's the only pre-7th century BC Mediterranean shipwreck where a considerable part of the hull has been found (I'm not counting the boats that were found in lakes like those from La Marmotta that I've mentioned before). For instance we have huge underwater cargos from shipwrecks like the Dolkos shipwreck and the Cape Gelidonya one, but in cases like those none or almost none of the remains of the hull were found. We know that the tradition of making sewn boats survived even later in the Mediterranean, and it persisted until pretty much nowadays in other parts of the world like the Indian Ocean.
>>16590284that's pretty sick, another interesting kind of boat is the one found on the brit islands upwards, the pelt covered boats with a wooden skeletton
>>16590514Yes, those were described by some Greco-roman authors like Pliny, he mentions them while talking about the tin trade in the British islands, Strabo also said that the Celtiberians used to make them in Lusitania (Portugal) but had stopped making them there by his time, of course in the British islands and especially Ireland they remained in use for much longer.The Inuits used the Umiaks, with which they covered large distances, skin boats were also used by several Siberian tribes until not so long ago
>>16590557
>>16590557>ancestral boatcan't help but love the ideairrc, the voyage of pytheas, the fragments that survived in the form of citations, mentioned that kind of boat, but it might have been a side note by Barry Cuntlife
>>16590106What's the evidence for the "solutrean migration"?
>>16590564Petroglyph from Lake Onega (Russia-Finland), depicting boats, possibly skinboats, with fishermen. 4500-3500 BC
>>16590612A depiction of prehistoric whale hunting from the same site
>>16590612>>16590614badass
>>1659061418th century depiction of an Irish currach
>>16590629how did you into ancient boat autism my brutha?
>>16590751Mainly by looking into all the possible archaeological data that proves maritme links in prehistory and antiquity and at all the known boat depictions, remains and shipwrecks
>>16590803absolutely basedspeaking of which, two things came to my mind, scythian earrings depicting a boat and the west russian sea, called Scythian seado you have any info on that? cause I sure don't and would love to hear if you have
great thread
>>16589158They did basically the same activides
>>16590587>What's the evidence for the "solutrean migration"?First off, it simply makes sense and secondly, politically correct academia is vehemently opposed to the theory, which virtually guarantees it's valid.
>>16587234i dont mean to derail the thread, but that sounds based as hellwhat sort of boats did you build, and how well did they turn outthats the sort of shit i wanted to do as a kid but never had the materials or a nearby lake to try it on
Seriously though. How did they get cows from Iberia to the Outer Hebrides as early as 5000BC when the first megalithic monuments were being constructed? You cannot just slowly creep your way from Southern Britain all the way there, because hunger gatherers are hostile and whatnot. Jumping from coastline to coastline was the most feasible colonization strategy but there's just no way you could fit a bull (meant for mating) inside a cuirrach
>>16591934Some tribes ie Ojibwa have a myth that they came over the ocean from the East not the west I believe
>>16592074What I don’t get is why they would go to random islands so far north. Why would people want to live on Orkney?
>>16592113They probably couldn't pierce through the mainland without increasing in numbers first. The Hebrides are also not very conducive for the hunter gatherer lifestyle because there are no hardwood forests there that can supply them with acorns and game. Maybe that's why the EEF chose to live there, because elsewhere they would have been driven away by the aborigines who may see them as a competition for food resources.It's still impressive though how they managed to take their cattle on the way there too. They gotta have advanced knowledge of timber joinery to make boats that can take heavy cargo, we just haven't discovered it yet it seems.
>>16592113theorizing:- overpopulation, maybe mixed with a cultural built in (you're young we're too many, GTFO) kind of mindset- being pushed out by other hostile migrations- tribal wars
>>16592153It's impressive that they even reached Lampedusa which historically was often left abandoned aside from some arab communities inhabiting it in the Early Middle Ages that eventually abandoned it too.The Neolithic settlers even erected some sort of henge structures there.
>>16592363Truly impressiveWhat if the EEF migrants have reached and (attempted to) colonize the Azores?https://www.scirp.org/journal/paperinformation?paperid=55269
>>16592363>>16592509what's impressive to me is not that they colonized those, but that they built megalithic stuff in them, the "builder" class, is what fascinates me, like what must have been the deal with those guys?
>>16590614damn, imagine going whaling in flimsy skinboats in the arctic sea with bone harpoons...
>>16592074you could always transport a couple of calves. just tie it up, carry it onboard and lay it on the floor until you arrive.
>>16592768Oh boy, imagine the semi-caveman-tier steaks, that must have been dope
>>16592107Not surprising and no, that's not post-Columbian DNA admixture.
>>16592960there's a super interesting documentary on some native people from the islands to the west of the US. They claim to:. flee from persia, from genocide. somehow end in Peru. get genocided in Peru again. flee. end in the firstly mentioned islands. genocided againsome of them survived, albeit mixed with the other natives, yet they still preserve their blond hair and blue eyes.Genetic tests on them and specific perubian populations confirm the hypothesis. All according to the documentary, off course. Apparently there were archeological human and material depositions found of the island also supporting the theory. Part of those have been vanished and/or destroyed and seem to keep being destroyed or not taken into account/preservation by the local authorities.In the documentary, you could see actual native people telling the same story that those people were in the island first, but in smaller numbers and got completely BTFO'd by the newcomers.
EEF won, again.
>>16587224Paleolithic Iberians reached to America by boat. Imagine it...If they found Solutrense artifacts in America it is obvious that they arrived by boat.
>>16593559>If they found Solutrense artifacts in AmericaThey didn't. Solutreans had many very similar material culture elements to ANE, their Gravettian ancestors even weren't genetically that far from ANE and also dispersed from Russia at a point about 20k years prior to ANE. Even the earliest genetic of pre-Clovis ancestry in the americas points to ANE crossing from Alaska. Researchers made a similar mistake by thinking Mal'ta boy and other ANE burials were Gravettian because of how similar their lithic industries were. But they had different art, anthropomorphic figures and their was sufficient genetic distance between them, Gravettians being among the earliest distinct West Eurasians. These were the cave painters of France and Spain anon, nothing similar exists in the Americas. Paleoindian lithic industries seem to change (degrade) from Clovis onward. They were making arrowheads with shards of glass beer bottles and shit during the old west phase with no decorative or special purpose beyond needing something practical to hunt with. So in that it makes sense that the oldest examples of liths, huge spear tips for hunting megafauna, would still resemble ANE and Solutrean industries. But they were an ANE-descended people who mutted even more heavily with East Eurasians when crossing the land bridge from Asia, not Spain. All evidence points to this. More so, I won't say much more than this but I have paternal origins from Solutreans anon. Gravettian groups had a rough go during the ice age, only some from Iberia (Iberian HG, Fournol and other lil groups) and the Balkans (WHG) emerged, few in number. The idea of them clubbing seals, building shitty sealskin boats and crossing a massive continental sized bridge of ice, clubbing more seals and fish along the way only to suffer and die out upon reaching the Americas, is depressing to say the least. It's good that the fact is this never, ever happened and only retards who know nothing continue to say otherwise.
>>16593533If by won you mean raped into total extinction, no other group won so bigly. Maybe ever.
>>16593920All of what you say is good but why there are no other evidences of a solutrean like culture (artifacts, figures, etc) in other western euro countries if the solutreans were ANE-like? Why the solutreans are just from Spain-France and not Germany or Finland? Why there are no artifacts or figures similar to those of the solutreans in other European countries? Because if they were ANE-like there would be more evidences of this ANE-like culture in the rest of Europe (in fact there would be more evidences the far north and East of Europe you went.Also check this:>>16592960
>>16593932>>16588424>>16588445>>16588449>>16588450>>16588454>>16588457>>16588487>>16588493>>16588495>>16588515>>16588520>>16588523>>16588528>>16588548>>16588555>>16588594>>16588560>>16588596>>16588603>>16588642>>16588663>>16588714>>16588665>>16588722>>16588733>>16588809>>16589147>>16589158Cope
>>16593978what was the best conclusion then? Didn't the Soluteans discover the Americas? and were they similar to ANE? Or were they fake?
>>16593979Why are you quoting 99 posts from a guy and one from another guy that has posted a pretty much unrelated reply to another post?
>>16593979Go back to /b/
>>16593978>why there are no other evidences of a solutrean like culture (artifacts, figures, etc) in other western euro countries if the solutreans were ANE-likeI tried to cover this in that long-winded post. Basically these sites like say in Virginia which is often cited, this was pre-Clovis by thousands of years anon. There are likely other similar sites out there waiting to be found, which makes archaeology interesting again. The decline in quality in the lithic industry among paleoindians was not merely artistic, but in all respects. However like in mesolithic Europe and the steppe, liths became smaller as game became smaller, or industry improved in terms of scale (switching to bows and arrows and smaller projectiles overall typically, less artistic quality, different and easier materials etc). >Why the solutreans are just from Spain-France and not Germany or Finland? Why there are no artifacts or figures similar to those of the solutreans in other European countries?Much of that region was covered in glaciers anon. Look up the images of the Last Glacial Maximum, that was the time of the Solutreans. There were three branches of Gravettians we know of, and none came out of this phase the same. Some went extinct, it ended their whole way of life. Solutreans merged with a group called the Fournol cluster, these emerging as Magdalenians. Later they were all mutted further with WHG to form a group called the Azilians. The branch that retreated south of the Alps into Italy for instance, appear to have gone totally extinct. Only the Iberian and Balkan branches survived. >Because if they were ANE-like there would be more evidences of this ANE-like culture in the rest of Europe (in fact there would be more evidences the far north and East of Europe you went.Eh it's more that they just didn't plot too far from ANE and shared similar industries. It's not uncommon. In the Mousterian for instance, we had entire different species sharing the same industry.
>>16593978>R1b in native Americans Anything precolumbian came from Paleo Siberians/ANE. These larger percentages came from a broader explosion of R1b during the time of the LGM.Unlike the C and I y-haplogroups confined to Western Europe (more so Iberia, Italy and the Balkans) R1b appears to have dispersed in all non-northern directions. Even into Africa. The oldest R1b we have on record is indeed from Western Europe, but they're from a time thousands of years after the Solutreans emerged with what other groups were left in Iberia. This oldest clade was R1b-V88 iirc and he certainly seems to have come into Western and Central Europe with I2 men, from the Balkans. No one is quite sure why, given their seeming cultural deficits compared to Solutreans and Magdalenians, but WHG had stronger fertility than their more Western counterparts. Likely it was their genetic health (in youth at least) and ability to produce excellent mocroliths for hunting smaller game, similar to what happened to the paleoindians after their mastodon were gone in the Americas. Also Magdalenians were kind of like Maori in many ways. Brutal cannibal savages, even though they made unique art. It's amazing that anyone survived pre-WHG Iberia given their savagery and they became the dominant group there.
>>16593978Dude.. you lost
>>16594499>Anything precolumbian came from Paleo Siberians/ANE.Nonsense, or are we to believe R1 people shlepped their way across the length and breadth of Asia over thousands of years, yet somehow left no genetic evidence of this passage?Why is it so hard for anti-Solutrean types (beyond political correctness) to accept that people from Europe may have made their way by boat to the Americas? The maritime migration from Asia to the Americas is now the accepted theory but it's impossible that the same type of maritime migration happened from west to east?
>>16592785That's a possibility, but there seems to be no midpoint between the mainland where they came from and the Orkney Islands that could provide temporary reprieve to the colonizers. Ireland was colonized much much later, and we know this because of two things: most of the EEF settlements in western Ireland are dated later than Maeshowe, and eastern Ireland is a core territory of the WHG (where most of their toolstone is sourced.) I doubt the calves would survive such a long, rough journey over the sea. Bullocks, especially the earliest breeds not so distantly removed from wild aurochs, need to be buckbroken within a year because they mature sexually quite early in their life.Never mind that navigating a shoddy boat theoretically made of stretched animal skins along the treacherous British coastline in perpetually foggy, cloudy weather is very challenging.
>>16594732I want to believe in the Solutrean migration hypothesis but one obvious thing that facilitates the Bering migration hypothesis but not the other is the general westwardly direction of the oceans of the northern temperate zone. Going from East to West on a boat is certainly not impossible, but it would have been hampered by the prevailing winds especially in the height of boating season during the summer. But then again the regime of the wfather systems may have been completely different back then, and besides the Basque where able to fish for cod in the Grand Banks with their small skiffs long before America was beginning to be colonized.
>>16594732>Nonsense, or are we to believe R1 people shlepped their way across the length and breadth of Asia over thousands of years, yet somehow left no genetic evidence of this passage>Why is it so hard for anti-Solutrean types (beyond political correctness) to accept that people from Europe may have made their way by boat to the AmericasAside from crossing the fucking Atlantic ocean while hugging a glacier in lil sealskin boats? My biggest problem, after looking into this a bit further: >In geographic plots, R1 frequencies in native populations, of the Great Lakes/ Algonquian-speakers stand out as the great majority, having among the highest worldwide R1 rates (e.g., Malhi et al. 2008; and World frequency map as of 1 June 2014), even higher than non-western Europe and far higher than other Native Americans>When further characterized in the USA (Hammer et al. 2005), 97 per cent of R1 had the M269 SNP (unambiguous Single Nucleotide Polymorphism), which defines R1b1bSo basically at least what they have calls for, 97% of this lmao "native R1b" is from Bell Beakers. M269 is from a metal age founder effect, a clear marker of IE paternal ancestry. None of it is even from Siberia. But as I said before, if there is some R-M343 among natives, there is 99.9% they came with clades of Q and etc. over the land bridge. Because>there is no evidence, genetic or otherwise that confirms Solutrean presence in the Americas>there is no R1b in Solutreans These were just Gravettians in Spain who were slightly more gracile with some different techniques in industry. They appear to be mostly genetically unchanged from them otherwise and there's no R1b in any such prior Iberian groups either.
>>16595011>So basically at least what they have calls for, 97% of this lmao "native R1b" is from Bell BeakersMost likely colonial Anglo or Iberian sailors to be more exact. I had read this before how many had Euro Y-DNA before.
>>16595011>Aside from crossing the fucking Atlantic ocean while hugging a glacier in lil sealskin boats?Which is _exactly_ how the maritime migration from Asia to the Americas happened but somehow it's impossible to go from Europe to the Americas?>the land bridge.Again; a maritime migration from Asia is the now accepted theory and also again; you can't have R1 peoples marching across Asia over multiple generations, yet leave zero genetic evidence _in Asia_ of this claimed migration. The ONLY explanation for the heavy concentration of R1 among north east American Indians (and suspiciously nowhere else in the Americas) is through an east to west maritime migratio from Europe to the Americas.The only reason this theory isn't given more attention and funding is because modern academia is infested with political correctness that mandates the only acceptable theory is from Asia to the Americas.
>>16593932they still make up 1/3rd of yuro's ancestries including northern europeans
