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>>23399147
>Question of the Thread
What are some things you could make a habit of doing for your community that align with one or more of the Works of Mercy?

Plz recommend me some schizo catholic like Hugo Wast.

>>23399147
My best friends into the occult, any books to help me with this?

>>23399152
I've volunteered with the local Eastern Catholics over the past year and I've really liked it; they only meet once a month but it still feels like the first time I've actually had a recognizable "community" that goes beyond the bureaucracy and streamlined feel of RCC parishes. Seeing the growth of it and being there has to count as a spiritual work in some dimension.

Eastern Catholicism also transcends the novus order/TLM culture divide that's been seemingly getting more prominent in the US Church.

>>23399318
Is he coming from a Catholic background? Tell him about how Eliphas Levi renounced Catholicism, studied the occult, and finally realized that Catholicism contained the fullness of wisdom that the occult was incapable of capturing. If he wants something that's Catholic but has a knowledge of the Hermetic framework just have him read Valentin Tomberg.

Is he not Catholic? Just tell him the occult is cringe Hot Topic shit.

>>23399269
Don't know who that is, but Malachi Martin is a crazy ass nigga. Jesuit exorcist in New York. Hostage to The Devil is a crazy book.

>>23399147
>>Mere Christianity - C. S. Lewis
Protestant
>>Orthodoxy - G.K. Chesterton
Written while Protestant
>>History of the Christian Church (Complete Eight Volumes In One) - Philip Schaff
Protestant
>>Ignatius Catholic Study Bible New Testament RSV 2nd Edition
Protestant translation
>>The Complete Ante-Nicene & Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers Collection
Translated by Schaff, a Protestant

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>>23399269
He's less schizo than a lot of writers in his school but Solum Ipsum by András László is worth reading. Dominique Venner also comes to mind. He's not as explicitly Catholic as Wast. Venner has been accused of both fundamentalist Catholicism and paganism, but most accurately he's a Catholic/pagan syncretist. He committed ritualistic, insurrectionary suicide in a cathedral. Analogia Entis by Fr. Erich Przywara is often used for fuel for outlandish social teaching.

>>23399318
What kind of occultism is your friend involved with? Is he mainly interested in pop culture stuff like astrology/tarot/crystals/healing, is he getting recruited into a cult? Demonic Foes by Richard Gallagher details a lot of credible encounters with not just demons, but the dangers of the occult in general.

>>23399319
That's awesome, Anon.

>>23399378
A lot of the recs are definitely more Anglican than truly Catholic, hence why I recommended the Douay-Rheims and focusing on the Catechism.

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Can I ask you guys for some advice?

>>23399611
Sure, Anon, ask away. I might not respond until tomorrow though.

>>23399147
it's the church's birthday today btw

There is a story about a christian, a jew, and a muslim competing to convert a pagan, and it ends with them not wanting to hear the result for it would spoil their dialogue. I want to reference it but now I can't find it. Please help me out here.

>>23399147
Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton might actually be a worthwhile addition. I thought it was going to be a cliche-filled midwit conversion story but ended up being like if Houllebeqc became a priest. His prose is incredible and his insights are mainly from the first generation of people living in the electronic media age as he grew up being a want-to-be writer. He referred to France's Lycées as the mystia body of Satan. It's pretty incredible.

Recently, I have been reading Garrigou Lagrange. He is amazing. Made me realize how poor my knowledge is.

If any anon wants to improve their spirituality, I couldn't recommend him more.

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>>23399967
It sure is. Happy Pentecost!
>>23400787
It sounds extremely familiar, but a cursory search hasn't brought anything up. I'll keep looking and update the thread.
>>23400851
Based.
>>23400856
I've heard of him before but haven't gotten around to reading Lagrange. I'll check him out, thank you, Anon.

>>23401283
>I've heard of him before but haven't gotten around to reading Lagrange. I'll check him out, thank you, Anon.
You will not regret it, anon.
Just make sure to read it slowly and carefully.

Any Catholic supernatural horror?

My favorite moment in the Church was when, at a trad parish full of Protestant converts, the normal priest was gone for the day and instead it was this liberal Jesuit. He spoke very well. "God doesn't care how many rosaries you say - look in the gospels, I checked! He cares how you care for the poor and needy - that's what you'll be judged for. Everything else is secondary." It was top lol because the parish had just spend like 2 grand on this giant saints' statue and he mentioned that in the homily.

>>23402060
How do you feel about William Peter Blatty?
The Rite by Matt Baglio also comes to mind.
Bram Stoker is Catholic as well.

>>23402366
>Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

It is very important to be charitable for our brothers. But you do it because you love God.
>If any one says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

But remember about the first commandment. "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." The Rosary is very good. As Pope Francis said:
>Here I would like to emphasize the beauty of a simple contemplative prayer, accessible to all, great and small, the educated and those with little education. It is the prayer of the Holy Rosary. In the Rosary we turn to the Virgin Mary so that she may guide us to an ever closer union with her Son Jesus to bring us into conformity with him, to have his sentiments and to behave like him. Indeed, in the Rosary while we repeat the Hail Mary we meditate on the Mysteries, on the events of Christ’s life, so as to know and love him ever better. The Rosary is an effective means for opening ourselves to God, for it helps us to overcome egotism and to bring peace to hearts, in the family, in society and in the world.

>>23402060
Robert Hugh Benson wrote a bunch of stuff you'd probably like, he was a priest. Wrote an early dystopian novel (lord of the world) in like 1907, and has a couple horror novels. I've heard good things about the necromancers but haven't read any of his horror yet.

>>23402366
>He cares how you care for the poor and needy
This is just another way of saying salvation comes from faith and works.

>“Have you ever given any thought to fact that you live like a monk? I suspect you think you live like Robinson Crusoe, but that’s not true, you are not really in nature. The sextant, the watch, the charts, the ship itself with her fire and her gilding - that’s all magisterium. Man overlaid upon god, and beauty. I see the lay of her line, that swanning down and up again, and I can’t imagine how it was made of square pieces of steel, but of course it was, and that is a sort of miracle. Sailors grasp this. Wicker used to call Chusan ‘our lady’ - saying far more than I think he knew. To you ships are never an it, but a she - Madonna, mother, lover, wife, whore - but always her. And the sea is a him, Neptune you might say, but more simply god.”

>“More my god than yours. Perhaps not even mine.”

>“How do you mean?”

>“There is none of the mercy of the New Testament out there. The Jordan and the Galilee made Christians. And I suppose the desert gave us Jews. But open sea makes pagans - nature worshippers - and can you blame them?”

>“Perhaps it makes pagans, but it doesn’t suffer them. The Vikings and the old Chinese might have known their waters, but it took more than fear to cross, say, the North Atlantic, in winter. That, and I mean no offense, is I think a Christian act. One must believe that the world doesn’t end when your ship sinks from under and you take that first breath of saltwater.”

>>23402951
>the strength to explore the oceans comes from the Christian belief in the afterlife.
Damn that’s a hot take, and if you look at history he might be right.

Thinking of entering the Diamond Brothers seminary and devoting my life to just being a glorified scribe. I have nothing else to offer to the world.

>>23404066
Usually priests are expected to contribute in other ways, but it could easily be the right path for you. I will pray for you. May God guide you, protect you, and nurture you.

Who is your favorite Doctor of the Church, friends?
Mine is probably St Catherine of Siena.

>>23404066
The Dimonds are schismatic sedevacantists. Join a real monastery.

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>>23399147
>catholic literature list
>CS Lewis

>>23404066
Anon, the Dimond Bros are what would happen if you took Chris-Chan and replaced his autistic obsession with video games with sedevacantism instead.

>>23404749
St. Thomas Aquinas is on top but my personal favorites are St. Augustine and St. Jerome

If you haven't read St. Jerome's refutations of heretics, you need to, they are kek
>I read but could not in the least comprehend them. I began therefore to give them closer attention, and to thoroughly sift not only words and sentences, but almost every single syllable; for I wished first to ascertain his meaning, and then to approve, or refute what he had said. But the style is so barbarous, and the language so vile and such a heap of blunders, that I could neither understand what he was talking about, nor by what arguments he was trying to prove his points.
>Jovinianus, condemned by the authority of the Church of Rome, amidst pheasants and swine's flesh, breathed out, or rather belched out his spirit.
> I was requested by certain of the brethren not long ago to reply to a pamphlet written by one Helvidius. I have deferred doing so, not because it is a difficult matter to maintain the truth and refute an ignorant boor who has scarce known the first glimmer of learning, but because I was afraid my reply might make him appear worth defeating. There was the further consideration that a turbulent fellow, the only individual in the world who thinks himself both priest and layman, one who, as has been said, thinks that eloquence consists in loquacity and considers speaking ill of anyone to be the witness of a good conscience, would begin to blaspheme worse than ever if opportunity of discussion were afforded him. He would stand as it were on a pedestal, and would publish his views far and wide. There was reason also to fear that when truth failed him he would assail his opponents with the weapon of abuse. But all these motives for silence, though just, have more justly ceased to influence me, because of the scandal caused to the brethren who were disgusted at his ravings. The axe of the Gospel must therefore be now laid to the root of the barren tree, and both it and its fruitless foliage cast into the fire, so that Helvidius who has never learned to speak, may at length learn to hold his tongue.
> I have become rhetorical, and have disported myself a little like a platform orator. You compelled me, Helvidius; for, brightly as the Gospel shines at the present day, you will have it that equal glory attaches to virginity and to the marriage state. And because I think that, finding the truth too strong for you, you will turn to disparaging my life and abusing my character (it is the way of weak women to talk tittle-tattle in corners when they have been put down by their masters), I shall anticipate you. I assure you that I shall regard your railing as a high distinction, since the same lips that assail me have disparaged Mary, and I, a servant of the Lord, am favoured with the same barking eloquence as His mother.
all real quotes

>>23399269
>>23405764
>>23406059
>>23406063
big manualistfag wall of text about thomism
either the worst case of autism or actual priests post on /lit/ now

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>>23404749
St. Francis de Sales, who I didn't expect to number among the Doctors. Such a sweet man with such a great love for God. He's been a good friend to me.

66 books written by jews

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This is a great book. I highly recommend it.

To Scott Hahn and anyone else at Emmaus who may be reading this: please release affordable trade paperback editions of your many fine books, rather than issuing most of them exclusively in expensive hardcover editions. Follow the example of Ignatius Press in this regard. You folks obviously have a lot of money to spend. Please publish editions that are accessible to those of us who are not wealthy, nor have ready access to academic libraries, rather than publishing in a fashion that effectively cuts off access to all but the rich and career academics.

>>23406141
>66
73, /pol/shart

>>23406141
several of those authors hated jews on a level that you will never comprehend, a literally biblical level, you can't even pretend their level of anti-semitism.

>>23404749
St. Alphonsus Ligouri for sure for me, just read his stuff a ton and has had a big impact on me

>Perhaps, says St. Bonaventure, we are afraid that in asking Mary’s intercession she will refuse it to us? No, says the saint: “Mary does not refuse, and never has refused pity and aid to any sinner who has invoked her intercession.” She has not done so, and she cannot do so; because God has made her the queen and the mother of mercy; and as queen of mercy she is bound to attend to the care of the miserable. “Thou,” says St. Bernard, “art the queen of mercy; and who but the miserable are the subjects of mercy?” Hence the saint through humility adds: Since then, O Mother of God! thou art the queen of mercy, thou must have a special care of me, who am the most miserable of sinners. As mother of mercy it is her duty to deliver from death her sick children, to whom her mercy makes her a mother. Hence, St. Basil calls her a public hospital. Public hospitals are erected for the poor; and they who are in the greatest poverty have the best claims to be admitted into them. Hence, according to St. Basil, Mary ought to receive with the greatest tenderness and care the greatest sinners who have recourse to her.
>But let us not doubt of the mercy of Mary. One day St. Bridget heard the Saviour saying to his mother: “Thou wouldst show compassion to the devil, should he ask it with humility.” The haughty Lucifer will never humble himself to ask her prayers; but if he humbled himself to this divine mother, and invoked her help, she, by her intercession, would deliver him from hell. By those words, Jesus Christ wished to give us to understand what Mary herself afterward said to the same St. Bridget—that when a sinner has recourse to her, however enormous his guilt may be, she regards not the sins with which he is charged, but the intention with which he comes. If he come with a sincere desire to amend, she receives him and heals all his wounds. Hence St. Bonaventure says: “Poor sinners! do not despair; raise your eyes to Mary, and trust in the mercy of this good mother.”

>>23406367
>literally biblical
have some restraint, man

We need something like Orthodox Shahadah for Catholics.

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>>23406347
>Please publish editions that are accessible to those of us who are not wealthy, nor have ready access to academic libraries, rather than publishing in a fashion that effectively cuts off access to all but the rich and career academics.
Absolutely not. I highly doubt that most lay Catholic book buyers could name the four cardinal virtues, let alone distinguish between a predicamental and a predicable accident. Allowing people who lack such foundational knowledge to discuss the subtleties of the mystery of the Trinity would be an unmitigated disaster.

>>23399147
Why isn't Jane Lead (1624-1704) ever discussed here? A truly inspired christian mystic.

>We may remember that Christ the Lord, upon doing any great or marvelous Cure, put forth the Soveraignity of his Will, as when he said to the Leper, I Will be thou clean: And sometimes he put it to those, who, he perceived had Faith in him, saying, What Will ye that I should do unto you? And no less was effected for them than they desired the Lord should do for them.
>These expressions of our Saviour may be a grand Rule for us to follow, and ought well to be regarded by us; for in the Will is the highest Magick, when it is united with the Will of the Highest; when these two Wheels meet in one, they are the swift running Charriot, which nothing can cross or stop, in which the Bridegroom, with his Bride Sophia, ride most triumphantly together over all things, viz. over Rocks, Mountains, and Hills, which are all made plain before them, and Seas dryed up. What is able to resist a Will that is united with God’s Will, before which every thing must stoop and bow? which Will, when ever it goes forth, always accomplisheth its Enterprise. It's not a naked Will that wants its Garment of Power: impregnable Almightiness is with it, to pluck up, to plant, to kill, and to make alive; to bind and to loose, to save and destroy.

Revelation of Revelations, Chapter XVIII, pdf found at janelead.org/writings.html

>>23404749
Bonaventure! The angelic doctor. His mystic works are such a elegant and beautiful jewel of the christian platonist tradition...

>>23399378
I was Protestant once so I vibe with that.

Can you recommend any English-language neo-Thomist authors? Ideally 19th or early 20th century.

>>23408193
Garrigou Lagrange is great.
"The 3 Ages of Spiritual Life" should be required reading for all serious Catholics who wish to improve themselves.

>>23407125
This channel looks interesting. I'm not a fan of channels which boil down to "Muslim/JW/Mormon/atheist debunked by epic debate" and I almost always prefer to study texts rather than watch videos, but I'm interested in learning more about Orthodox apologia. A lot of these videos look concise and relatively soft on the clickbait.

>>23407175
If lay Catholic book buyers are ignorant, making knowledge less accessible doesn't do anything to actually remedy that. If the laypeople don't learn truth then that merely creates a vacuum for distortion and libel.

>>23407125
That channel doesn't really explicitly argue FOR Orthodoxy so much as it's arguing against Islam from people who happen to be Orthodox.

>>23399147
What Catholic fiction besides LOTR should I read? Already read Divine Comedy.

>>23408954
I don't really think "Catholic fiction" is relevant to the thread's scope because you could include any fiction written by anyone who happens to be Catholic.

A few random suggestions would be if you want another epic poem like the Comedia, read Jerusalem Delivered by Torquato Tasso. If you want more early 1900s English prose like Tolkien read Robert Hugh Benson as already recommended by this anon >>23402839. If you want the Spanish "Catholic Shakespeare" (even though Shakespeare was crypto-Catholic) read Lope de Vega.

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I've got St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross on my reading list for this year. Currently rereading LOTR, then I'm going to reread Plato's Republic, and then after that I'm going to try to tackle The Science Of The Cross.

Name one Orthodox Theologian that you like and one Catholic Theologian that you dislike

>>23409266
Orthobro I like: Saint Symeon
Cathosis I dislike: Saint Aquinas
>t. One among you

>>23409266
Not a theologian but I like Jonathan Pageau.
I don't like the extent to which Aquinas gets held up as being the end-all be-all of Catholic thought, especially by traditionalists.

>>23408193
>Can you recommend any English-language neo-Thomist authors?
[1] I would ******HIGHLY****** recommend Garrigou-Lagrange, Knowing the Love of God. A wonderfully clear and accessible, truly inspired work. Really, really, **really** good.

[2] Admittedly, it is (like the Garrigou) a translation into English from the French, but you might also consider this:

The True Christian Life: Thomistic Reflections on Divinization, Prudence, Religion, and Prayer Paperback by Ambroise Gardeil

See: https://matthewminerd.com/the-true-christian-life-endorsements

Here is a taste of Gardeil in the form of a shorter article, with an interesting introduction by the translator Matthew Minerd:

https://www.hprweb.com/2020/10/human-life-and-the-divine-life/

And an interesting interview with Minerd re Gardeil: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSd_GBY0f9M&ab_channel=TheMeaningofCatholic

>>23408954
>Brideshead Revisited by Evelyn Waugh
>The Diary of a Country Priest by Georges Bernanos
>Viper's Tangle by François Mauriac
>The Book of the New Sun series by Gene Wolfe
>Chronicles of the Nephilim by Brian Godawa
He looks cheesy and exploitative on first appearances but has been praised by theologians.
>The Dawn of All and The Lord of All both by Robert Hugh Benson
>Father Brown series by G.K. Chesterton
Other great works that I've read by him are
>The Napoleon of Notting Hill, The Man Who Was Thursday, The Ball and the Cross, Manalive, and The Man Who Knew Too Much
>Brighton Rock, The Power and the Glory, The End of the Affair, and The Heart of the Matter by Graham Greene
>Ad Limina by Cyril Jones-Kellett
>The Edge of Sadness by Edwin O'Connor
>Nine Hundred Grandmothers by R.A. Lafferty
>Wise Blood, The Life You Save May Be Your Own, The River, Good Country People all by Flannery O'Connor

>>23409874
>The Man Who Knew Too Much
Upon reading this I thought this had something to do with the two Hitchcock movies with that name but apparently not, Hitchcock only liked the title.

Bump

What are the best biographies of saints?

>>23412050
Possidius is known to have a good biography of Augustine continuing from where the Confessions left off but I've never read it. The Golden Legend if you want something more hagiographic.

>>23402060
The Case Against Satan by Ray Russel.

>>23412050
>St. Claire of Assisi: Light From the Cloister by Bret Thoman
Thoman has written several books about St. Francis and St. Claire, I recommend that other work as well. This one in particular is simple, faithful, yet engaging.
>Catherine of Siena by Sigrid Undset
Thorough, immersive, and accessible, the best biography on her I've ever read. It's excellent even if you don't share her numinous inclinations
>"Forget Not Love" The Passion of Maximilian Kolbe by André Frossard
This is a bit flowery and labored but I found it deeply memorable.
>Saint of Auschwitz by Elaine Murray Stone
This book has a similar length and a lot of people prefer this biography.
>Dear and Glorious Physician by Taylor Caldwell
St. Luke the Physician's life is told as a novel with certain details imagined to fill in gaps. It's very long but lifelike and well written.

Those are just a few off the top of my head. If you have specific people/eras/regions you're interested in it's likely that I have precise recommendations.

>>23399318
Does he like fiction? Occultism is pretty stupid, and it may help him to become immersed in a fictional world, and it may lead him to think of better things, like God. I would recommend something like David Copperfield or The Count of Monte Cristo. Something light, like Anne of Green Gables, could also be helpful. Any book with full characters and a christian perspective should help, imo. Beauty and truth turn the heart toward God. Try to get him to read and look at good things, and he may come to see that occultism is fake and cringe.

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>>23412050
A Light to the Gentiles: The Story of Venerable Francis Libermann by Adrian van Kaam is a very good read.

>Here is Van Kaam's description of the youthful Jacob (he took the name Francis after his baptism) meeting with his father, a noted rabbi who had been severely shaken by the conversion of his other son, Felix, to Christianity. Jacob had supposedly been studying the Talmud, but in fact and unbeknownst to his father had for some time been losing his faith in Judaism. Now he seeks his father's permission to move to Paris, supposedly to further his Talmud studies, but really so as to be closer to Felix.

>>"Rabbi Libermann looked old and tired. Deep dark lines furrowed his face and his eyes were dull and expressionless. People had not spared him... He motioned the boy to a chair and then sat down heavily in another. For a long time he stared silently at this young son who was to have been his consolation and his pride. At last his hollow voice cracked through the silence. Could he ask some questions about the Talmud?

>>"The blood rushed to Jacob's face. When it drained away he sat there pale and motionless. After all, the Talmud is something that requires daily memorizing and constant discussion. No one who has neglected it for even a short time can deceive a master of rabbinical lore. Clearly, the tragedy of his life was about to be stripped naked for all to see. He swallowed hard and strained to catch his father's words as they competed with the pounding in his ears. Then came the question, slowly and carefully phrased, with centuries of learning behind its mocking simplicity. A long bleak moment ensued. Then suddenly his mind was flooded with light. Texts that had been read only superficially now stood out in shining clarity. Jacob listened to himself as to a stranger while his answer took the form of a sure and fluent commentary. Never in his life had he experienced such readiness of speech.

>>"The bent old figure before him straightened visibly. A look of indescribable pride shone through tear-filled eyes. At last, Rabbi Lazarus leaned forward and caught Jacob's hands in his own. 'I thought so,' he whispered. 'They were calumniating you when they told me you were studying Latin and neglecting Hebrew.' In a burst of excitement he hurried off to open a bottle of his best wine so that he and this loyal child of his heart might fittingly celebrate their mutual vindication.

>>"Jacob stared after him in an agony of self-reproach. He had come unscathed through the ordeal and the feeling of relief was undeniable, but the contrast between his father's faith and his own unbelief burned like acid in his heart. The horrible prospect of deceiving his elder merged with the happy thought that God might have specially enlightened him to make the Paris trip possible."

>After converting, Libermann was faced with many trials, including bad health, but was eventually ordained a priest.

>>23412983
I mean fiction couldn't hurt but I feel that using that to "distract" someone interested in occultism isn't a long-term fix. It's better to just point out that all the shit associated with "occultism" isn't actually ancient and is just bored Enlightenment-era nobles pushing bullshit to pass the time.

That said, "Hermeticism" isn't necessarily occult and the Catholic writings of Valentin Tomberg could scratch the itch of abstract associational philosophy that the guy wants to scratch but doesn't really know where or how or what to articulate about what he's curious about.

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>>23399318
Maybe Huysman, Là-Bas (translated as Down There or The Damned)

>Là-Bas was first published in serial form by the newspaper L'Écho de Paris, with the first installment appearing on February 15, 1891. It came out in book form in April of the same year. Many of L'Écho de Paris' more conservative readers were shocked by the subject matter and urged the editor to halt the serialisation, but he ignored them. Sale of the book was prohibited from French railway stations.

The plot of Là-Bas concerns the novelist Durtal, who is disgusted by the emptiness and vulgarity of the modern world. He seeks relief by turning to the study of the Middle Ages (chapter one contains the first critical appreciation of Matthias Grünewald's Tauberbischofsheim altarpiece) and begins to research the life of the notorious 15th-century child-murderer Gilles de Rais. Through his contacts in Paris (notably Dr. Johannes, modeled after Joseph-Antoine Boullan), Durtal finds out that Satanism is not simply a thing of the past but alive in turn of the century France. He embarks on an investigation of the occult underworld with the help of his lover Madame Chantelouve. The novel culminates with a description of a black mass.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A0-bas_(novel)


>Là-bas (1891) attracted considerable attention for its portrayal of Satanism in France in the late 1880s.[9][10] It introduced the character Durtal, a thinly disguised self-portrait of Huysmans. The later Durtal novels, En route (1895), La cathédrale (1898) and L'oblat (1903), explore Durtal/Huysmans's conversion to Roman Catholicism.[11] En route depicts Durtal's spiritual struggle during his stay at a Trappist monastery. In La cathédrale (1898), the protagonist is at Chartres, intensely studying the cathedral and its symbolism. The commercial success of this book enabled Huysmans to retire from the civil service and live on his royalties. In L'Oblat, Durtal becomes a Benedictine oblate. He finally learns to accept the world's suffering.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joris-Karl_Huysmans

Although it has its detractors, I am of the opinion that Blatty's The Exorcist is a first-rate novel.

Possessed (1993) by Thomas Allen is a nonfiction account of the event Blatty's book was based on.

The recent film Nefarious is a lesser work of art in comparison to The Exorcist, but it offers a very fine and accurate exposition of the phenomenon of possession -- its logic and motivation.

The Screwtape Letters is not quite on point, but it is a rare book indeed in presenting a sound theological pedagogy through a glass darkly, as it were -- from the perspective of the tempters. An inspired little volume that is wonderfully droll and perversely amusing.

>>23413569
Nice effortpost.

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Was he a crypto-Catholic?

For the past few years I have alternated between devotion and doubt, with no resolution in sight.

By nature I am a Catholic. The pious practices of our Church, its morals and its rituals, speak to my soul as it were in its own native language. Try however I might to abandon the religion, I always find myself thinking in Catholic terms, always returning to its concepts, its logic, its worldview. It sticks to me like my skin, unable to be shaken off, no matter how uncomfortable I might feel inside it.

And yet, at the same time, this Catholicism that I have imbibed so deeply into my soul is a version which no longer exists. It is a Catholicism represented by men such as Aquinas, Pius IX and Leo XIII, a radically reactionary, anti-modern world-view which is entirely opposed to the sentiments of liberal modernity.

I can find within myself no kinship with men such as Francis, for example. He and I think from entirely different starting points, our spirits are moved by different notions of the true, good, and just. I am a radical, who renounces all of the values and symbols of my culture; he is a conservative, who upholds them.

I have tried to ignore this tension for so long, to simply attend mass and leave Church politics alone. But a few Sundays back during a homily at my parish the Deacon reminded me of it all in a stark way. He condemned in harsh terms those who are critical of the Pope and the Council, declaring them to be fake Catholics who are interested only in aesthetics. Now, personally, I don't care a jot for the Pope or the Council in themselves, but I care about what they represent, which is the spirit of postwar liberal modernity. It seemed in the Deacon's speech he was holding these symbols up and therefore indirectly defending what they represent.

And I realised: perhaps I'm being a hypocrite by continuing to come here. Perhaps I simply do not belong to this group. And so after the confection of the Eucharist I left.

Ever since that itching obsession has been calling me back to mass. Back to sticking my head in the sand and pretending I can still enjoy a 1910s Catholicism in 2024. And here I go back on the merry-go-round, back to my short bursts of piety followed by long periods of doubt.

>>23414256
Don't be scandalized out of your faith, anon. There are plenty of Catholics who believe in the same thing you do.
Just don't become a sede.

>>23414256
>i am a radical and the pope is conservative
>the pope is conservative because he is progressive and i am radical because i am a chud who's stuck in the past
Stupid post. Your deacon is right about you.

>>23414385
You didn't understand his post.
The anon you are quoting is clearly not interested in aesthetics only.

>>23414393
>wahh v2 uses translations to vulgar tongues
>why can't we use the vulgata which is itself a translation into a vulgar tongue?
>muh thomism is based
He's either an aesthetic obsessed tradlarper or a homosexual in repression. Most likely both. Not a true catholic.

>>23414385
>>23414405
I will address your points.

First, it is indeed true that, in our culture, to be a traditionalist one must be a radical. From birth one is subtly indoctrinated into modern ways of thinking, modern values, modern forms of expression. In order to free oneself from such conditioning one must truly have the spirit of the radical. This involves a dark and often frightening process of self-confrontation, in which all of your most fundamental assumptions are knocked down in order to rebuild on new grounds. So, yes, despite the seeming paradox, "conservatism" is radicalism, and "progressivism" is conservatism.

Second, it is not accurate to put the changes of Vatican II down to vernacular translation. Vatican II represents an entire spirit of change, a new outlook, a modernised and adapted Church. The changes of the liturgy and doctrine are just symbolic expressions of this new worldview.

>>23414510
I'm obviously not that Anon.
My (ignorant) impression is that many problems came from "Spirit of Vatican II" types? That Vatican II by itself was fine, but that people used it as a symbol to go crazy?

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>>23414237
Converts import subtle premises, heuristics, and sentiments from their natal faith. That isn't inherent a bad thing. Guenon is not an exception.

>>23414256
The Church has survived a lot worse infidelity, falsehood, and schism in the clergy, including the Papacy, than anything we've seen in the last century. The first Bishop of Rome, St. Peter (among other things) denied Christ three times. Nearly a millennium ago, St. Peter Damian lived in a time when simony, masturbation, and pedophilia were rampant among priests. On that note, if you haven't read Liber Gomorrhianus then I recommend picrel. There's nothing new under the sun indeed. We're not part of the Church for anyone except Christ and His holy nation that transcends the demos of all ages. If you believe in the one, holy, universal, and eternal Church that is based on communion with the Roman pontiffs then your place is in the Roman Catholic Church. We're called to fulfill our vocation, whether that vocation is clerical or not, doing so truthfully, lovingly, patiently, and humbly. Focus on what good you and your loved ones can do to deaden your own imperfect natures and enrich your community. Bear troubles and wrongs patiently while correcting errors and counseling the doubtful. Live your life peacefully, be aware of the violence that exists, pursue justice for those who're suffering, show mercy to those who cause us to suffer, keep our thoughts and feelings alive with pure truth and love, preserve peace and love where we can, and suffer whatever hardship results from choosing this life.

I know it's easier said than done; it's impossible for humans in fact. That's why we need Christ.

>>23414510
>it is indeed true...
>>source: "just trust me bro"
The church, like believers, are called to be in the world but not of it. That is to say, not a wholesale rejection but something akin to sublation. There is no more or less holy era than our own. You think modern decadence is worse than the degeneracy of declining Rome? You think current Pope is really more blasphemous than the countless politicking vipers of medieval and renaissance?

The believers still believe. The church will survive. Christ himself foretold the latter.

See; >>23414319

PS: reaction is not and is never radical. That is a trap the CIA wants you to think. To conserve is to preserve status quo. Progress is the only true radicalism. And your brain is rotted by /pol/ if you think society is progressive in deed even if some pay lip service or that the problem with rainbow capitalism is the rainbow and not capitalism. Jesus was an agent of change himself, mind you.

Bless :^)

Oh sweet a Catholic thread. I can tell you my experience being Catholic and how it all went sideways, then you can insult me for it.

When I was ~25 I started practicing Catholicism and being devout; went through RCIA to get confirmation and all that. But I was always bothered by the fact that I couldn't really know whether I was doing good enough. We're clearly being tested; God wants us to walk a very narrow way, despise our own souls, etc. So then what's the bar? Because nobody does this perfectly. Concrete example: there are hundreds of millions of severely impoverished people in the world. Why spend any money on luxuries (meals out, tobacco, etc) if there are people living in such destitution? So I started living as simply as possible and giving all of my money away, to the extent possible while still paying rent etc. But even then I could not know; because even then I was holding on to various things, and wasn't really living at the absolute minimum. Accordingly, there were people who were suffering, whose suffering I could alleviate, but I just wasn't because I liked to drink coffee in the morning, or spend a bit more to live without roommates. The money thing, that's obviously just one area, but it's an important one. How can you say you follow Christ if you hoard up wealth like that? How can you sit on your hands complacently and let strangers suffer if you could help them by giving up your creature comforts?

Anyway a couple of years of living like that, praying all the time sometimes an hour a day, fasting, the whole nine yards, I had a psychotic break where I felt a sense of love (sorry) that I'd never felt before and God and saints talking to me in my head. In the course of this I gave away all of my life savings, my entire safety net, to Catholic Relief Services. I felt like God would help me no matter what, that it didn't matter if I became homeless etc. Eventually I crashed out of the psychotic state, realized how badly I'd screwed myself, realized how insane it would be to play this "heaven game" when no one can even tell you what the rules are, realized that by Christ's own standards most people will go to Hell including myself, and gave up, stopped going to mass, etc.

Christians always get butthurt when I tell this story because the point is really fatal. We're called to be saints. How many saints are sitting there at mass with you? Can someone who spends 40,000$ on a new car possibly be a saint or go to heaven? Can you live a normal life and still consider yourself a Christian? No. I for one have given up and despaired. When you're a Catholic, you're playing a dangerous game without rules. You will be judged, but there's no telling how you stand with God or if you're doing okay.

Take it from a psychotic, your sense of "God" is nothing but an imaginary friend. I'm not saying God isn't real, but he's not imaginable and all you do is imagine when you pray. It is delusion.

>>23414696
When you get older, with time to take away some sting of pain, I hope you will abandon such childish rebellion. God is indeed real, and the imagination is blessed indeed. Also, try virtue ethics instead of capitalist utilitarian calculus games...

>>23414696

(cont'd)

Normal responses are "ah you were arrogantly trying to be a great person, this was all spiritual pride." Ignoring the issue of whether I was proud or not, because I can't convince you, trying to be as good as possible is what Christianity is. Other people might say "oh you were too hung up on works, you should have had more faith and trust :)" Again, this is not the message of the NT nor or the Church. Works matter a lot. Of course I knew it was grace, and I prayed, like I said, a lot. But no one can tell you what you need to do, unlike in say Islam or Judaism. There's no rule book, just a lot of wishy washy sentimentality ("Oh well I think God is super nice and merciful and it will all be okay"). Or you can say "you were scrupulous" - really, these weren't scruples, scruples are something else. Worrying about doing well is not scrupulosity, scrupulosity is "there's a speck of the host stuck in my teeth I'm committed blasphemy!!!1" and so on. Another would be "you're mentally ill bro". No shit, but the issues I'm raising are real and they're really not solved. "Read Therese of Lisieux". She's my favorite saint, her life was not ordinary but heroic. She was a hero as an ordinary person. She did not bring virtue down to earth she just showed how it could be expressed in another sphere. It's no easier to be like Therese of Lisieux than it is to be like Bartholomew, believe me.

There really is no solution here. Some people are content to say "well, I suppose it will work out and God is with me so I can't be going too far astray, after all I have the sacraments :)" And someone like me pushes back a little, sees the limits of human goodness and even human sanity, and can see that it does not make sense and never will. You have no contact with God, and you are not a good person, and presuming on God's mercy is a terrible sin.

>>23414717

I want to believe you, but you have offered nothing. You have not responded to a single point I raised. Based on my experience talking to Catholics irl etc, pretty sure it's because you can't.

Capitalist utilitarian calculus game? Whatever bud. I predicted that you would insult me, because you can't answer me. You have to think of me as a foolish or wicked person, because the alternative is threatening to your beliefs. Tell me, how much money have you wasted in the last month on shit you don't even need? How many people have suffered because you were too complacent and greedy to help them? Faggot.

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>>23399152
>What are some things you could make a habit of doing for your community that align with one or more of the Works of Mercy?
I've been volunteering a lot in local prisons this year, adult literacy program and Christian book club (all denominations welcome but mostly Catholic/Reformed/Anglican literature)

>>23414742
>abnormal person (psychotic) has abnormal experience (psychosis)
>blames normal thing (religion)
Wow. Crazy! Literally!!! I have one question. Why didn't you just become a monk or something if wanted to rely on God?
>>>how much moneyz do you use blah blah blah
Retarded capitalist utlitarian calculus again lmao

It also isn't an ad hominem, psycho. Learn yr informal fallacies better. Altho I hear y'all crazies have issues with logic (that is an ad hominem btw)

Much love doe. Will pray for thee

>>23414727
>no one tells you what to do
Read Catechism? Read Denzinger?? Read Patristics???


PS: aristotle and virtue ethics is a continuous thread even unto aquinas, well worth checking out, read nicomachean ethics -- particularly the passages on miserliness and extravegance

>>23414696
>>23414727
You are confusing salvation and perfection.

To be saved, according to Catholic doctrine, you just need to die in a state of grace. Simple as. Every Catholic is called to perfection, but it doesn't mean everyone saved will reach it in their lives

I think you should go back to the basics.
>Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.”

And read the Cathechism.

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>>23414727
People in our modern world are set adrift with only a log of poo in hand as a paddle. I survived because I'm naturally bookish, so I take for granted many insights the lack of which many perfectly normal Christians must suffer, because it can be confusing to be a modern. You should have been reading books such as The Spirital Combat to get a handle on the faith. In reply to a couple of your concerns, in general, a man can use money to enjoy a modest maintance of his particular station in life, which means this amount will vary, and any excess belongs to God, meaning other human beings. You can dispose of it any way you like, be as creative as you want, and do consider that it can be spent on the extravagant in glory to God, in display of His great glory to others. One fact is important to retain: bread and cloth will pass, but the soul endures forever. A person suffering suffers more from his sins than from a lack of possessions. While it is important to meet such material needs, the great need and miracle is his salvation. If you brought a single soul to the Church, that's a greater work than if you had donated trillions to stop hunger.

See picrel. Another book I highly recommend to get a grip on the faith of all ages.

>>23414628
It is absurd for you to consider yourself a radical on the grounds that the power structure pays lip service to your views but does not enforce them stringently enough. You are saying that the problem with the power structure is that it holds your values but does not implement them properly. So you are not a radical fighting against the power structure, defining yourself against its values and symbols; you are a member of an extremist vanguard which wants to push those values and symbols to the extreme. Your endorsement of homosexuality is also patently at odds with Catholicism, which confirms what I’m saying.

>>23415041
Protip: the system doesn't believe what it pays lips service too. Hence why it is mere lip service. Also, name a single progressive politician in USA. Bernie Sanders and AOC are conservative btw. Not one radical among the lot.

Living in the present; looking forward to the future, does not mean abandoning the past.

>muh homo so bad
You are the homo, sir. But worry not. Hate the sin, love the sinner.

>>23415126
I don't get your type -- why not just reject Catholicism? You already hold secular values higher in authority.

>>23415228
I follow Jesus and his Church. It is my culture but also my genuine belief despite teenage lapse. I attend. I volunteer. I even work. Despite messed up ness of systems...

It is obvious the world is not progressive in social progress way. Someone like Bill Gates may talk big game about charity but usually such behavior is deflecting from the fact that it's mere greenwashing money laundering hence why they are still rich. Ironically, however, I am not a marxist or social democrat. An aristocracy or monarchy is nice insofar as it is small government. I do not wish to police microagressions. But also not interested in criminalizing homosexuality or abortion. Anyway, capital. As Christ says, easier for a camel and such. I do not want to eat bugs or live in pods. But it is sad to see capitalists promote sjw stuff as a shield to virtue signal and then alleged anti establishment types blame sjw stuff rather than capitalism itself. I guess progress is bad word for self tho. Am more zero/acc

>>23414696
>>23414727
Your giving to the poor is commendable, and I would not take that from you. As the Gospel for today says: "For whosoever shall give you to drink a cup of water in my name, because you belong to Christ: amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward." In this you are with Christ. However, I would urge you to reconsider your understanding of Christianity, for in this I believe you are against Christ. I say this because your understanding, if I'm not mistaken, seems to be leading you away from Christ and into disillusion, despair, or doubt, at least as far as a Christian would see it. Now either it is your understanding that is wrong, or it is Christianity that is wrong and you are correct in believing that it is nonsense. Or, I suppose, it could be that both your understanding of Christianity and Christianity itself are wrong, and your conclusion is correct by coincidence. As a Christian, I of course see it the one way. You will decide for yourself, yet I would pray only that you do not let your experience harden your heart.
I wish I could answer your more particular points, for you seem very thoughtful, but that is above my pay grade and I'm suspicious of my own advice. There are others who have said plenty about it, and have done so far better than I could. Keep reading, and please do not shun the possibility that God is indeed personal and speaks to us by diverse means. Hope all is well with you otherwise, bro.

>>23415250
You endorse homosexuality despite this being expressly contrary to Christian morals, and the Catholic understanding of natural law.

>>23415271
I'm not doin it so idgaf. You're the one who's bringing it back up.

If you want some biblical laws let's start by banning usury!

>>23414925

>you just need to be in a state of grace bro

Love that one. As long as you don't jack off without going to confession before you die, you're good :)

Again, you insult me, as if I never read the catechism, or the Bible, or Aristotle, or Augustine, or whoever else - I must just be a very silly and ignorant person to have ended up in this place, and just not have read enough. My very problem is that no one can tell you what to do to be in a state of grace. A common idea "in the pews" is that you just avoid committing the sins on one of these lists (no masturbating now). But that's nonsense, every moral theologian agrees that we have positive duties too. And again, you quote one verse out of the Bible. Why should I waste time looking for the others? If you didn't notice them before, you won't hear them when I quote them. What kind of person thinks "love the lord your God with all your heart" etc. is easy? And consider for a moment, please, about what it would mean to love your neighbor as yourself. BTW here's a line from John Chrysostom quoted in the catechism you might want to ponder - "Whatever you have that you don't need is stolen from the poor."

>>23414943

"Oh bro you're probably just not as bookish as me and didn't read enough good books, if you would just read more your crippling spiritual problems would go away."

>>23415262

Thank you, I appreciate it. I really do wish I could see things the way you do, I don't actually hate the Church or Catholicism at all.

>>23415274
I'm not a fan of capitalism. But how do you reconcile your endorsement of homosexuality with your claimed belief in Catholicism?

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>>23399147
Calvin's version of God is basically Jigsaw. Seriously, one should only read how extensively he goes into God giving fake Grace to delude some reprobates into thinking they're sinner. Man was a theological sadist

>>23415301
Love and do what you will. That's what Augustine says. Lotta reactionary thought seems what Nietzsche would call ressentiment. Not to be pelagian, but I believe in the goodness of the will and Being itself. Love is a daimon which can lead one astray but also to truth and beauty and goodness and God as per Platonic doctrine. Even the worst folly of man can work toward good IMO. Altho, I also do not mean that to imply masonic perennialism or worse yet sabbatean accelerationism so to speak.... but anyway, the gay stuff is outrage bait. Waste of time. They can have parades and bars and legal rights. I ain't goin. No one is saying church has to officiate marriage. Yet at least.

Idk. Sorry for callin ya a fag. I actually go to Latin Mass lol. But I think the intellectual climate in west and at large globally is rather conservative as part of the capitalist system and seeking to conserve it so I dislike conservativism for preserving that system altho I know a great deal of so called reactionaries who do not so easily cleave to left right dichotomy as myself.

>>23415346
Nietzsche was an anti-Christian apostate and blasphemer. As if his opinion matters to a Christian. You might as well namedrop Nero next time.

Also, anal sex between men does not equate to 'love'. But I suspect you already know what I would say against your views and disagree, so there's no point talking about it. We just have different worldviews, and we'll never see eye to eye.

>>23415363
I do not think 'love' of anal sex compares to love of reproductive sex but you seem awful fixated and if you read more closely you will notice none of my posts are ringing endorsements of homosexuality, in fact the opposite, all I said was that capitalism or mammon seemed a more dangerous demon in our age......

>>23415300
This is not an insult, this is standard Catholic doctrine. Which is why you should read the Cathechism again.

>Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Simple as.
This doesn't mean you shouldn't try to achieve perfection.

>>23414696
>>23414727
You were a schizo who couldn't conceive of helping others outside of material wealth. A real Catholic is supposed to use the corporal and spiritual works of mercy (like this anon mentioned at the beginning of the thread >>23399152) as a guide for how much you're helping others, not just playing autistic money numbers games.

There's also something telling about how you devote so much attention towards how much you apparently gave but have very little to say about what tangible help your money actually provided to anyone else. Or telling about the fact that you'd tell anonymous randos online about this rather than discuss it with an actual Catholic community.

>>23415300
>"Whatever you have that you don't need is stolen from the poor."
You have a stringent understanding of "need" here. If more material comfort would have prevented your schizo meltdown, that's a need.

Also, the Bible
>My child, treat yourself well according to what you have, and bring offerings to the Lord that are worthy.
Sirach 14:11. God doesn't automatically want everyone to be paupers on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

>>23415308
>one should only read how extensively he goes into God giving fake Grace to delude some reprobates into thinking they're sinner.
Where did he discuss this? I don't read much Calvinist theology but I'm familiar with the basics. It doesn't surprise me that monergistic salvation would allow these conclusions.

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When people (here included) speak of the Biblical texts, the Septuagint is fairly mentioned; with the DSS following after, and maybe even the Masoretic gets occasionally name-dropped.
However, what of the Vulgate Bible? Does the translated work by St.Jerome (along with his commentary) add anything to the biblical discussion, or elucidate any matter?

>>23414696
>spends 40,000$ on a new car
Puts people to work. Suppliers, manufacturers, sales people. Work honors the Creator's gifts and talents according to the catechism.
As long as you don't use the car to drive to a prot church you should be good. Lol

>>23416513
>Septuagint...DSS...Masoretic
These are more referenced from a historical standpoint because they're either relevant for determining the canons of scripture (Septuagint with its deuterocanons rejected by Protestants, etc) or of historical value into Jewish canon from around the time of Jesus (Dead Sea Scrolls)
Vulgate's important, of course, but it's just a crystallization of what's already there from other sources.

If you ask me the Syriac Peshitta gets slept on a lot in biblical discussion.

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>>23399147

Do you guys consider Ninth Gate to be Catholic Occult kino?

>>23415382
They're both bad. You can oppose both but instead you pathologise people for being "fixated" (even though you were the one who brought it up).

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When will Canterbury become ours again?

>>23418169
Honestly people who have lived in Britain all their lives will never understand exactly what Henry VIII took away from us. All the spiritual benefits we would've had, the more conservative culture that would've developed, had the monasteries not been destroyed to rubble, and had the Church not been suppressed.

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>>23418169
tbqh with the rate they're losing members I could see the Anglicans lending out Canterbury to Catholics at some point in the coming years. They obviously don't care much for the abstract integrity of these spaces that they've started building literal amusement parks inside of.

Bump

>>23419111
what in the blasphemy

How do you guys cope with living in such an anti-Catholic world, to the point where even the Church’s own hierarchy seems to be abandoning the Catholic worldview? And even loads of factions on the right wing, whom you would assume to hold the same principles as us, believe in a satanic anti-Catholic Nietzschean “will-to-power” worldview. It’s like nobody has a head on their shoulders anymore. I know we shouldn’t throw pearls to pigs, I know the vast majority of these people will go to hell, but I just wish that moment would come sooner. I want to see the reign of Christ again, I hate this satanic world so much.

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Convince me of Catholicism over Orthodoxy. Give me all you got.

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>>23421561
There are many differences (some large and many small) between the two, and the importance of the issues (if they're non-negotiable, or simple misunderstandings).
I'll give one major point, in favour of the Catholic Church:
The early Ecumenical Councils declare the singular importance of the Roman Bishop.
Canon 2 of 1st Constantinople (which expands on Canon 6 of 1st Nicaea), and Canon 3 of 1st Constantinople already mark the jurisdiction of the Bishops, and the exceptional importance of the Bishop of Rome (as 1st) and the Bishop of Constantinople (as 2nd). Then you have the events of Ephesus and Chalcedon.

>>23421556
You become a "trad" as a coping method and live in terminal cognitive dissonance.

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>>23421556
I read a lot of history, so I am never shocked by the rank depths of human folly. I pray also a lot, and by God's grace, I'm pretty placid in the face of these evils. What me worry? God ever in control, nothing happens except by God's permission. God never changes. It is important to have likeminded, IRL friends, however. It is not good for man to be alone, morever, this walk can't be done without friends.

>Catholicism pre-2018
>The death penalty is acceptable
>Catholicism post-2018
>We understand human dignity better so we officially oppose the death penalty and seek its abolition worldwide
Which flip-flop is next?

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>Catholicism pre-2018
>The death penalty is acceptable
Uh-huh sure.

>>23421675
Jan Hus was burnt alive at the Council of Constance. I guess that was just a booboo since they forgot it was wrong.

>>23421630
How about the day to day spirituality of a layperson? What are the differences in faith life between an Italian Catholic village grandma and a Greek Orthodox one?

>>23421675
King David
> In the morning I put to death all the wicked of the land: that I might cut off all the workers of iniquity from the city of the Lord.

St. Thomas Aquinas
> The life of certain pestiferous men is an impediment to the common good which is the concord of human society. Therefore, certain men must be removed by death from the society of men.

The Catechism of the Council of Trent
>Another kind of lawful slaying belongs to the civil authorities, to whom is entrusted power of life and death, by the legal and judicious exercise of which they punish the guilty and protect the innocent. The just use of this power, far from involving the crime of murder, is an act of paramount obedience to this Commandment which prohibits murder. The end of the Commandment is the preservation and security of human life. Now the punishments inflicted by the civil authority, which is the legitimate avenger of crime, naturally tend to this end, since they give security to life by repressing outrage and violence.

Pope Pius X
> It is lawful to kill when fighting in a just war; when carrying out by order of the Supreme Authority a sentence of death in punishment of a crime; and, finally, in cases of necessary and lawful defense of one's own life against an unjust aggressor.

Pope Pius XII
> When it is a question of the execution of a condemned man, the State does not dispose of the individual's right to life. In this case it is reserved to the public power to deprive the condemned person of the enjoyment of life in expiation of his crime when, by his crime, he has already disposed himself of his right to live.

Antipope Benedict XVI
> I draw the attention of society's leaders to the need to make every effort to eliminate the death penalty and to reform the penal system in a way that ensures respect for the prisoners' human dignity.

Antipope Francis
> Today, however, there is an increasing awareness that the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes. In addition, a new understanding has emerged of the significance of penal sanctions imposed by the state….
> Consequently, the Church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that "the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person", and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide.

>>23421675
Rom. 13:4
For he [the prince] is God's minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God's minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.

What does this mean?

>>23421556
The normal state of things is for the Church to be counter cultural.
Having a large part of the Church hierarchy being corrupt is not a first as well. We just have to pray for saints to lead us forward. Like Saint Athanasius, Saint Catherine of Siena, Saint John of the Cross and Saint Theresa Avila.

We shouldn't hope for others to go to hell.

>>23421764
>We shouldn't hope for others to go to hell.
No, but I will certainly be happy to watch them be tormented in the afterlife after all their lies, deceit, trickery, narrow-mindedness, and hatred. Especially Nietzscheans.

>>23421764
Psalm 58:3-11

The wicked go astray from the womb,
they err from their birth, speaking lies.
They have venom like the venom of a serpent,
like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
so that it does not hear the voice of charmers
or of the cunning enchanter.

O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!
Let them vanish like water that runs away;
like grass let them be trodden down and wither.
Let them be like the snail which dissolves into slime,
like the untimely birth that never sees the sun.
Sooner than your pots can feel the heat of thorns,
whether green or ablaze, may he sweep them away!

The righteous will rejoice when he sees the vengeance;
he will bathe his feet in the blood of the wicked.
Men will say, “Surely there is a reward for the righteous;
surely there is a God who judges on earth.”

amen

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>>23399147
What do we think of the Book of Common Prayer? I picked up one this week from the 50's and I'm impressed the Anglicans managed to structure their liturgy as well as they did. I did a few comparisons with the 1662 BCP and it hasn't changed in many places

>>23421556
im a right wing nietzschean-thomist Catholic, am I doing it right?
just watch terrence malick movies or get into the catholic existentalists this isn't a new issue people have been
unironically Nietzsche kind of gives the solution but its kind of hard to access
read gabriel marcel's man against mass society (recent papal documents have referenced him so he's not "evil" or whatever crap people say about nieztsche)

>>23421741
>Antipope Benedict XVI
>Antipope Francis
Sedevacantist larpers are legitimately worse in my eyes than Protestants.

>>23421561
it's basically a way to avoid clarity and confronting the actual issues of the fallen world.
With a Pope and a clear source of the faith and unity, we are kind of forced to confront our current social and cultural issues. If there is rot you can't hide it from yourself and the responsibility to be a saint and a patriot (to your country, Church, etc) is always before you.

Fleeing to some obscure ethnic Church (of which there is like 50 all of which have inconsistent communion w/ eachother and no real clarity on basic doctrines) you basically just avoid clarity. You have the idea of teaching authority but rather then anything clear you fall back on Church fathers so basically just get an extend sola scriptura. AFAIK they haven't had a successful council since like 1300 because they all bicker and (don't have a central unifying figure) and well abandon councils because of ancient controversies about the remains of some king. There's just like perpetual chaotic schisms between the different Churches and some are in communion with one that isn't communion with another they are in communion with. It only really makes sense if you view it as more of an ethnic/political thing.

There is very weird lack of understanding for really basic doctrines things related to sacraments of things like confession or baptism. (Some Churches will rebaptize people in certain situations, others will not. If one is right they are pointlessly rebaptizing someone (Sacreliege unless they do a conditional baptism) if the other is right you have unbaptized people receiving the sacraments. As far as I can tell the confession is more of just a vauge notion and basically just depends on the current local cultural vibe. There are even periods were certain Orthodox churches permitted abortions because the bishop said so. (Who is going to tell him not to?)

I'd emphasize more on the sort of phenomenological aspect of how the Church appears. In Catholicism it's very clear, warts and all. There isn't really any question of authority, of missteps, but there isn't really any question of all the basic doctrine. There is dispute over minor points that don't really impact the faith or practice of the normal believer. You are also not able to escape your own particular involvement in your history/nation/culture. The Church is physical and spiritual, if your relationship to it is to avoid the issues that afflict your nation/family that's sort of an anti-incarnation position.

>>23423574
Nietzsche is indeed evil. His philosophy is so expansive though that it mimics the stopped clock. He is a much better critic than a philosopher. Even his criticisms of "Chistianity" are great and incisive. The trick though is to replace "Protestantism" for "Christianity", then it makes perfect sense.

>>23421561
The term "Catholic Church" (not even just "catholic") was known and first used in the Apostolic Age by Ignatius of Antioch, who was the direct successor of the Apostle John who saw Jesus die on the cross. Meanwhile the term "orthodox" is not used at all until centuries later.

>>23421630
Orthodox ironically still believe in Papal Primacy. Look into the Ravenna Document.

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>>23423599
If you actually have tried to read him you may have just gotten filtered. He is intentionally obscure though so I get the issue. If you check out Heidegger's what is called thinking he touches on the many very positive aspects of Nietzsche's philosophy. I think it's quite clear if you actually read him though, particularly in the gay science. It's a philosophy of love and positivity and seeking the good despite how our ability to do so has been undermined. I don't see what's so evil about it? There is an aspect of sort of a desperation and hauntedness from a confrontation with evil that is so overwhelming, much of the language people cite as evil comes from that and will be extremely misleading unless you read it in that context. I think it might genuinely be something of a personality thing, the Catholic scholars I've heard talk about him genuinely just come off as nerds who can't tell when someone is telling a joke or are exaggerating something for effect.

Even like reading his stuff as criticism of Protestantism, it's obviously true his criticisms are mainly directed at the sort of German Protestantism he was familiar with but there is just something so autistic and missing the point about reading it and getting out of it his specific criticisms of like Christianity. I have no idea how people read it and get that out of it, maybe they are reading excerpts or something?

One of the key points is actually caring about criticism is just in itself degrading. You should be focused on beauty and goodness not digging in the mud for bugs.

Can you be an unironic Catholic Nietzschean?

>>23423636
I'm 400 ians calling taking any mans name seriously is gay. What do you want to gay marry Aristotle or something? Calling yourself a Catholic Nietzschean is fun though because it forces people comfortable accepting pseudo-idea junk in their head to actually understanding the meaning behind the words they are using.

(Christian doesn't count because by baptism we are family members, so it's our family name we aren't taking on another mans name)

>>23423596
>Fleeing to some obscure ethnic Church (of which there is like 50 all of which have inconsistent communion w/ eachother and no real clarity on basic doctrines) you basically just avoid clarity.
I don't disagree but Orthos will just try to counter this by bringing up Eastern Catholicism and the fact that the ECCs have Orthodox saints that the RCC doesn't.

The answer to this is that those saints aren't "saints" in the legal definition by the RCC, because the RCC itself wasn't the entity that approved their canonizations and that there's a distinction between the metaphysical status of a "saint" (i.e. someone in heaven) with the official designation of canonization, which the RCC accepts through its own processes.

>>23423631
Didn't Nietzsche dislike Christianity's core tenets (egalitarianism, humility, mercy) in general? iirc he actually paradoxically liked the idea of the Renaissance papacy because it was worldly and powerful, but him having that image of it being solely "worldly and powerful" was perhaps just osmosis of the German Protestantism of his surroundings.

>>23423631
>One of the key points is actually caring about criticism is just in itself degrading.
But then it must be degrading itself to enjoy Nietzsche, because a good 90% of his scribblings count as criticism.
>I don't see what's so evil about it?
Nietzsche is a nihilist in the sense that he is absolutely convinced of a godless, materialist, deterministic fatalism. I'm sorry, those ingredients could never make for a "happy" recipe, no matter the frost of white used. Instead, he exalts the will itself, of fallen man, for the aim of anything, good and evil by his count being meaningless. In the light of the supreme temptation that exists in men for the exercise of such a will, his philosophy can't be anything less than the apex of satanism, which we must remember is about exalting the will of man above that of God.

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>>23423642
>Didn't Nietzsche dislike Christianity's core tenets (egalitarianism, humility, mercy) in general?

you have to actually read people, once you start doing it you will realize anytime anyone says:
>Oh yeah this guys views are X
they are either just flat out wrong, totally misrepresentative, or are just outright lying/making it up because they want to seem knowledgeable.

The tl;dr would just be words don't matter so much, play with ideas/words/concepts to see what they reveal about reality. The thing that matters is reality/being. The way most people use words like egalitarianism/humility/mercy are so disconnected from reality that they might as well actually dislike the reality of the concepts.
https://youtu.be/BY_HilE1UcE
reminds me of this, this move is excellent. Malick expresses many of the sort of existentialist viewpoints in his films.

I think the reason there is still such hostility to Nietszche among Catholics is that they are still living in a manner that Niezstche is very much fiercely attacking. It's however not their religion it's a deeper fundamental moral stance where they are basically just disengaged and totally lacking in vitality. I would agree with him in that, that's how things got to be how they are.

>>23423662
Lol thanks for letting me know you have literally never read him

You guys might be interested in this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WFDu6VYnME&list=PLlB7QBe31_h15OH4bY-Ff3hBtTdeCskSE
Short lecture course on Niezstche from a good Catholic philosopher, also put out a good book on a related subject recently
https://www.amazon.com/Thinking-about-Meaning-Techno-Nihilism-Veritas/dp/B0CMBYGYF4/
He is a very frequent speaker for the thomistic institute and is a philosophy professor at benedectine, not a fringe guy.

>>23423671
>Lol thanks for letting me know you have literally never read him
I have read him, only in excerpts though. Where about my comments do you think I've made mistakes? Because I can substantiate my claims with proof texts.

>>23423677
>Where about my comments do you think I've made mistakes?
Sorry I didn't read your posts, only excerpts. Probably the same, right?

Start with the Greeks

blur forward into AP Jimmy Neutron

>>23423679
Why are you being a smartass? I was being sincere. My rule is to never waste my time, so I read as little modern philosophy as I can stomach. Not an insult, I hope you can understand. Please, correct me.

>>23423683
also good point people who just dive into Nietzsche without a solid background of the greeks (literature, tragedies, and philosophy not just reading nichomachean ethics and the republic once) are probably asking themselves to be mislead. Heidegger says people should study Aristotle for a decade before diving into nieztsche.

>>23423685
Dude you are just literally lying about a writer I greatly respect and feel a great personal connection with because you read some stupid excerpts. You are accusing someone of being the "apex of satanism" that you literally haven't even read. I linked/referenced other writings including respected Catholic philosophers. If you take not wasting your time seriously I'd suggest considering how well a use of time spreading lies about a philosopher you haven't read is compared to you know, just reading them? It's some crazy unhinged crap where you are reading stuff to categorize and "master" authors. You got just enough of Nietzsche to put him in a box and write him off, and for you that's what philosophy/thinking is. It's vile. That's kind of the spirit of the times though so whatever, like I said for something more paletteable check
https://www.amazon.com/against-Mass-Society-Gabriel-Marcel/dp/1587314908
out. Recent popes reference his works in encyclicals and he is Catholic. I think he'll also help to correct your bizarre relationship to other authors though in a much less direct way then Nietzsche would.

Also in terms of actually responding to your message it's so totally clueless and ignorant there isn't really anywhere to start to responding to it past just saying hey maybe actually read it instead of (i'm guessing) out of context excerpts being used by some state funded academic (actual agent of satan) to attack Nietzsche in defense of Catholicism while actually letting it's real enemies run wild on it.

>>23423702
I appreciate the detailed post, brother. And I apologize if I have indeed done injustice to his work, but I don't really think I have. I have read enough of his work, you might be assuming the worst by my use of "excerpts", but I don't think I've been unfair to him. I do believe that he can be read on a number of different, contradictory levels, and that this contradiction was an intentional aspect. You take a more benign read of his work, which I accept as true, but you also must understand that his work can be read at a much darker, deeper depth. Take the following:
>Once upon a time, in some out of the way corner of that universe which is dispersed into numberless twinkling solar systems, there was a star upon which clever beasts invented knowing. That was the most arrogant and mendacious minute of ”world history,” but nevertheless, it was only a minute. After nature had drawn a few breaths, the star cooled and congealed, and the clever beasts had to die. One might invent such a fable, and yet he still would not have adequately illustrated how miserable, how shadowy and transient, how aimless and arbitrary the human intellect looks within nature. There were eternities during which it did not exist. And when it is all over with the human intellect, nothing will have happened. For this intellect has no additional mission which would lead it beyond human life. Rather, it is human, and only its possessor and begetter takes it so solemnly-as though the world’s axis turned within it. But if we could communicate with the gnat, we would learn that he likewise flies through the air with the same solemnity, that he feels the flying center of the universe within himself. There is nothing so reprehensible and unimportant in nature that it would not immediately swell up like a balloon at the slightest puff of this power of knowing. And just as every porter wants to have an admirer, so even the proudest of men, the philosopher, supposes that he sees on all sides the eyes of the universe telescopically focused upon his action and thought.
That's what I meant by his foundational fatalist precepts. How do you read the above?

>>23402763
Stoker's Dracula is highly blasphemic. Van Helsing is using the Eucharist as a chewing gum to hunt the vampire.

>>23406084
>>23406139
>>23406454
>>23407673
>>23404749
all very nice answers

>>23415363
Nietzscheans are obligatory in every otherwise serious thread here. You should not be surprised that >>23415250 is gay and in favour of abortion.

Volunteering at a homeless shelter and cleaning up a monument next to my church has done more for me than all the books and debates I’ve consumed. Literature and arguments can be a good foundational thing, but they are straw. Go out and do something good today, gentlemen.

>>23424378
I can attest to this, when I went to Mass last Christmas, the Church was asking for donations in the form of clothes and canned goods to be given to the people who were suffering from floods recently. Never felt better when I was able to deliver a box of clothes and smaller boxes of canned food that I still had.

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>>23424378
Indeed.

>>23423618
>Orthodox ironically still believe in Papal Primacy.
Their consensual belief is that the Bishop of Rome is primus inter paris, yet they contest his full authority, and his panoply of rights(such as the right to call and validate Ecumenical Councils, or to singularly declare infallible teachings ex cathedra).

>>23424886
pares*

>>23414696
>i cant be perfect so the religion is wrong (also im a schizo so you must be too)

What do you think of Wuthering Height?

Man, what the hell happened to this site? I haven’t been here for months and now the captcha is retarded.

>>23421665
This is genuinely my problem, I feel isolated, even at the parish I attend because I'm shy and a loner by nature. I ask for your prayers if you feel inclined, I am struggling. Please forgive my blog post.

>>23426137
I've been there.

>>23426410
Ill pray for u anon

"[T]he Spirit resting on us leads to such an identification of ourselves with the Son that the Father would cease to be the Father if He not only ceased to beget the Son, but even ceased to beget Him in us" (i.e., baptized Christians).

On a separate note, these two videos make for a nice primer on Trinitarian theology:

Novatian: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Part 1 (The Good)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpoDoMSgZ44

Novatian: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, Part 2 (The Bad and the Ugly)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUK79LMTktg

>>23426410
Don’t dwell on it. Thinking about your problems will actually make them worse. Just be as active as you can. Join groups and volunteer, time will sort it out.

>>23426410
>I'm shy and a loner by nature.
It's best to just think about it from the perspective that people at a church will be offering probably some of the most courteous and understanding context you will find. In my experience church people generally want to be nice and build connections.

Just go to a function they have, church KoC groups usually host spaghetti dinners or other such events to raise money all the time. If you feel like you don't have anything to talk with them about just ask them about how the church community feels and different ways to get involved. Praying for you friend.

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>Enjoyed a homily from our deacon that emailed him and asked for a copy
>Over a week later, no response
I have to go to a different parish now, don’t I?

>>23427550
emails are usually for formalities and are probably handled by his secretary, you should approach him and ask him yourself.

amen

Never let go of me

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Complete noob here. Id like to learn about Roman Catholicism. Where do i begin?

>>23430207
Go to your local catholic church and have a conversation with the priest.
Catholics have RCIA which I understand is a series of courses designed to bring inquirers to a full understanding of the church, culminating in baptism.

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>>23430207
Gospel of Luke + Acts of the Apostles (2 books of the New Testament by the same author, dealing with the life of Jesus and then the earliest Christians immediately after Jesus) Then picrel, written by Pope Benedict XVI.

>>23430207
what
>>23430228
said
and
https://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/_INDEX.HTM might have something on any section you are interested in

>>Mere Christianity - C. S. Lewis
Good if you're atheist/agnostic and interested in Christianity, but I don't see how it's a Catholic work besides the author's relationship to Tolkien

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>>23414727
>>23414696
You don’t know what it means to be a saint. Read St. Josemaría Escrivá. I recommend starting with Furrow

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How do I approach 'Start with the Greeks' in a Christian manner?

>>23431052
Why would you start with the Greeks?

>>23431052
by reading the greeks? why would it be any different?

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>>23414696
>>23414727
>You have no contact with God, and you are not a good person, and presuming on God's mercy is a terrible sin.
Sure it's very likely, but it might not be, I don't know really...
Ultimately the only thing I can do is try to be better to lead a life of happiness and hope for the best
Some might say that is banal, but obsessing over it seems to lead only to despair, so I don't think it is the correct way to procceed
To be frank, it does help that I believe in universal reconciliation - even though this might techinically mean I'm no true Catholic, but I reached a point I no longer care about labels and culture krieg bullshit

I hope you get better anon, that you don't let whatever trauma those experiences brought wear down your life and your soul
And I thank you for your candor, it gave me a moment of reflection and optimistically a lesson as well

here have a man in a funny rabbit costume

>>23430919
it's a good christian apologetic work

>>23414827
>I've been volunteering a lot in local prisons this year, adult literacy program and Christian book club
based anon. good for you keep it up.

>>23419111
>They obviously don't care much for the abstract integrity of these spaces
they didnt build it so why would they appreciate it. protestants and Anglicans are all thieves and brigands at the end of the day.

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>>23421556
>And even loads of factions on the right wing
you realize you arent right wing or left wing and you are catholic. hence you realize both are two heads of the same beast that will lead you away into despair and misery. most right wingers in america are just guys larping as tough guys. when you realize this its hard to not notice or predict their reaction to things.
>gas stoves
>walkable cities
>lab grown meat
>climate stuff etc
none of these things are inherently anti Catholic or anti God so its fine to accept parts of them or even reject it. but the right wing is just a parody of any actual ideology now.

I'm trying to make a final decision between Catholicism and Orthodoxy. I agree with arguments from both parties. Can you guys recommend something to tip the balance?

>>23432961
oriental or eastern orthodoxy? lol

>>23433079
Eastern, I don't agree with the Christology of the Orientals.

>>23433085
do you determine which church is true by your lay view of their Christology?

>>23433089
Not necessarily, but the Christology adopted by the non-orthodox (small o) churches is fractured and can logically lead to positions which seem contrary to other theological positions which the early church seems to have held, and I take that into consideration when evaluating these things.
I shouldn't "window-shop" for a church based on how it makes me feel, I know, but I cannot blindly trust that any one church is The Church, not after what I went through growing up Mormon and then finding out the truth about Mormonism. Sure, I'm just a dumb layperson or whatever, but I too have the faculty of reason and I will use it as far as it can take me.

>>23433110
AFAIK scholars generally agree those theological disputes were more about language differences now and the actual schism's were more motivated by political motivations (as they basically always have been).

So for eastern Orthodoxy would you be in communion with the Russian Orthodox Church, or the Ecumenical Patriarchate/Orthodox Church of Ukraine?

>>23433130
I lean towards the EP, though admittedly less due to theological disputes and more because I can't support the ROC due to its support of the invasion of Ukraine. I know there's a whole set of issues with Patriarch Bartholemew and the churches in communion with the EP but I also know that Patriarch Kirill is a former KGB agent, which makes me fairly suspicious of the whole organization. I'm not super well versed on the fine details of the UOC-ROC dispute though.
I should also mention that I have significant Catholic ancestry from Bohemia and Bavaria and have certain leanings towards the RCC due to that heritage.

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Would the churches of the world murder Christ if His return meant that they'd lose their earthly riches and power?

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>>23433143
My point was sort of more to demonstrate the illusion of the choice between the RCC/"Orthodoxy". The RCC is a determinate thing you can have a clear specific relationship with. "Orthodoxy" is not really a thing, it's a mess of a network of communion and broken communions, political schisms no one remembers the motivations of out of habit (like the Orientals).

The vaguery of their boundaries goes into their theological views as well. You have many fundamentally contradictory views on things as basic as baptism (do you rebaptise catholics/protestants or not?) with literally no way of ever resolving them. They throw whatever attempt at a council they have because one country has the bones of some king from a millennia ago and they don't want to sit at the same table. They've essentially never evangelized any country, and are totally isolated to where they were 500 years ago except for when they flee as refugees because of political instability.

Like I get they have fun memes and there is something comforting about being able to just disregard all our current cultural issues that exist in the RCC, but they have the same thing in whatever ethnic cultural enclaves they have in eastern europe, we just don't really hear about it over here. I just don't see how anyone can seriously compare them as an option. Especially when their manifest issues are so obviously fixed by the Pope they reject (apart from the vague first among equals thing that seems to still basically resolve to just letting the local ethnic groups doing whatever they want because as I said above, schism is always political. They just come up with the heresies to justify it. )

In my opinion it's just a nihilistic way to avoid the cultural problems we've inherited and live in a dream world where you are disconnected from our history, the problems in the RCC are our problems that we inherit and they exist in our culture as well. You can't escape them you can only ignore them or attempt to improve it.

>>23433130
>Russian Orthodox Church
the russian orthodox church doesnt really exist any more. the head of it more a secular leader than religious one. im not saying that because of the russia-ukraine stuff. the russian orthdox church was fully captured by the russian and soviet governments. Even sold out their priests to stalin and would do that same for putin or whomever comes after him.

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>>23433192
Yeah as far as I know they used to allow priests to break the seal of the confession to tell the state. If they didn't their families would be murdered. Married priests kind of creates the opening to get manipulated by the state much easier.

But if you remove them the eastern orthodox population is like 140 million vs 1.4 billion. Literally an order of magnitude more and 20% of the world vs 2%
>>23433177
interesting to compare these maps
>19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

I really don't see how anyone could even be confused by this. Even the more recent Catholic heretics/protestants have been absurdly more effective then the orthodox in evangelization. Judge the tree by their fruits, Christ gives us a pretty clear metric here...

>>23433212
orthdox population in general is smaller. they tended to face the brunt of muslim invasions and then communism as well.
>>23433177
>political schisms no one remembers the motivations of out of habit
100% agree. the orthodox or orthodoxies i guess are so splintered its becoming meaningless. not the least that russia just broke with the other patriarchs over ukraines metropolitan. so splintered even more now. i agree too, its not an option for most its just some trendy thing that people want to be religious but are embarrassed about the help the poor part of Catholics and want to bless weapons and have a holy war like the russians are trying to pretend theyre doig.

>>23433246
I started out going to an eastern orthodox parish for like 4 months so I get the motivation, this was in like 2017. When I mentioned
>In my opinion it's just a nihilistic way to avoid the cultural problems we've inherited and live in a dream world where you are disconnected from our history
is because that's what I think my motivation was at the time.
There is something comforting in the vagueness/disconnection of the chaos that makes you less accountable. In the Catholic Church you are far more accountable, for what the Church does, what you do, and how you relate to the Church. One of my big motivators was legit fideism because I was coming to religion from a sort of nihilistic background. The fact I could just act like natural reason/my engagement with the world could be disregarded for the sort of "mystical" vibe of the anti-intellectualist aspect of EO was appealing to me.
But Christ was physically incarnate, the Church is physically incarnate and both are really part of history. We need to be in a mode where we are willing to grapple with and encounter those in a way we don't have control over.

>>23433263
Good take, thanks for sharing. Im catholic and i definitely enjoy the latin mass for some of that same reasoning of disconnecting from my current time and space. It sort of reunited me with 2000 years of history and faith in a way. But i also feel the Catholic church has a very real worldly presence too even though sometimes its lacking or below the standards it used to be.

>>23433212
Nothing worse than a Catholic shitting on Orthodox with bad arguments like this. We shouldn't be arguing at all, we're one Church. Israel, the larger kingdom, is the one that went astray. I don't think God is counting how many converts each branch makes, or that that's a rational way to approach religion. So if Catholicism was small, it would no longer be true? That's the implication of your argument, and that may well be the future we're headed toward btw. As for Stalin and his coopting the Russian church, you may not be aware of this but we Catholics actually have a few skeletons in our closet as well, so best not to get into those kinds of exchanges.

>>23433295
>but we Catholics actually have a few skeletons in our closet as well, so best not to get into those kinds of exchanges.
give me one where the catholic bishop sold out priests to an atheist regime. even bozo francis resisted the communists in south america.

I don't like the Latin mass. You can barely hear the priest; he's running through the rubric like it's a magic spell; everyone in the pews seems like a LARPer wearing full suits and dresses. There's a reason the Church reformed the mass. And I am on the "right" and I can even read Latin, but I don't understand the appeal of that rite. It seems like a fetishism to me. Francis is more or less correct in his criticisms of Americans.

>>23433307
>There's a reason the Church reformed the mass
its not simply the language. the priest went from facing the altar and sacrificing to facing the crowd and having a meal. its entirely different purposes. if you simply converted the latin mass to english it wouldnt be the modern english mass still.

>>23433271
I've gone in a full weird existentialist direction because I think phenomenologically the way the Church is "made present to us" in the environment has a significant effect on our attitude towards God/the world.
I just go to my territorial parish/the closest one. I started out going to a latin mass/latin novus ordo that was like 30 mins away and had a sort of "trad" attitude. I ended up having to move to a small town where there was just one parish and I kind of got used to that even though like all the trad stuff I'd engaged with was hard to get out of my mind at first. There's a kind of gross thing for me at least that it distorts your perception of the normal Catholic parish so rather then seeing stuff as it is, you rather interpret the little things people they do as a part of like their failure or some issue in the Church.
As a specific example anytime people would clap I'd think of the Pope Benedict XVI quote
>Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
I don't think he's totally wrong but there is still just something sort of disconnecting and indecent about having that kind of stuff pop in your head during mass, fortunately got used to it and not a thing anymore.


A key thing in my motivation to escape that sort of nihilistic disconnection from my current time was a really specific experience I had, that I had no good way to explain. When you are driving say 20-30 minutes to a further Church, you are driving past likely several Churches where Christ is physically present in the Eucharist and a community of believers is coming together for mass. That's the key thing that matters, the throne of the king of kings, and I just don't see really any sufficient explanation for rejecting the one you've been "given" as a gift, that is part of your world, to drive 30 minutes for some more tenuously connected place when the primarily valuable place is already a part of your world/home/environment.
It's just like too disconnected or insufficiently patriotic or something.
https://youtu.be/R_qiBsGsQfI
>He doesn't find her lovely, he makes her lovely
kind of has the sentiment
or the chapter the flag of the world from Orthodoxy
>The point is not that this world is too sad to love or too glad not to love; the point is that when you do love a thing, its gladness is a reason for loving it, and its sadness a reason for loving it more

>>23433311
Saying that the Church has an "entirely different purpose" in the mass is a heresy, and like all heresies it comes from pride.

>>23433317
>in the mass is a heresy,
no it isnt. the novus ordo mass is entirely different. it faces the crowd, theres not much emphasis on sacrifice and more a "meal". they remove several prayers that the latin mass has and the priest is facing the crowd instead of the host. the novus ordo mass has females and non priests handing out communion constantly, which is a heresy.

>>23433315
Wanted to finish more of the Chesterton bit...
>Rational optimism leads to stagnation: it is irrational optimism that leads to reform. Let me explain by using once more the parallel of patriotism. The man who is most likely to ruin the place he loves is exactly the man who loves it with a reason. The man who will improve the place is the man who loves it without a reason. If a man loves some feature of Pimlico (which seems unlikely), he may find himself defending that feature against Pimlico itself. But if he simply loves Pimlico itself, he may lay it waste and turn it into the New Jerusalem. I do not deny that reform may be excessive; I only say that it is the mystic patriot who reforms. Mere jingo self-contentment is commonest among those who have some pedantic reason for their patriotism. The worst jingoes do not love England, but a theory of England.
I think the traditionalist attitude is simply not patriotic in this sense, it's love with a reason/a theory.

>>23433315
>Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment.
one of the main reasons i drifted towards latin mass where the people arent really the "audience" meant to participate in like a comedy show at the local theater. aka all the guitar masses of the 70s-80s at churches. it seemed like i was at a commercial enterprise where i bought a ticket instead of a religious experience.

>>23433212
>Married priests kind of creates the opening to get manipulated by the state much easier.
But Byzantine Catholics also allow this, no? It doesn't seem like a great argument to make against Orthodoxy specifically.

>>23433342
>Byzantine Catholics
arent they literally like only 23 churches? theres a handful of small churches that the pope and curia allow exceptions to because its so small. a few anglicans who moved back to the catholic church i think was allowed to remain marriage or something. but the bulk are single and for a good reason like that other poster mentioned.

>>23433338
I don't like modern music etc. at mass either, and it seems like it's going out of fashion generally (though what do I know, I'm only one person and usually go to the same church). I do not feel like an audience at a comedy show in a novus ordo mass, that's not how I approach it, that's not how any of my fellow parishioners approach it. These tradmemes are insulting and kinda pharisaical (not calling you personally a pharisee). Like anyone who doesn't go to the One True Blue LATIN Mass is a drooling degenerate who doesn't know anything about God or religion. You guys don't look good when you talk that way, that's why the rest of the Church doesn't like you. I pray the novus ordo mass sincerely and attentively, afaik that's what everyone else is doing too (except the little kids and such).

>>23433325
That isn't part of the Novus Ordo Missal, the missal actually assumes the priest is facing ad orientem. Facing the crowd was just a custom that developed.
>>23433311
It's merely different in emphasis

We've had totally extreme cultural shifts and the world has totally technologically shifted, the mass and how it functions and emphasizes things is a byproduct of the culture and technological environment. You may not very well like modern industrialized society but it is what we have and the modern mass is designed to be more in line with it for better or worse.
>>23433342
Byzantine Catholic priests will affirm this lol, unmarried priests are generally superior and can do many things more often and be far more dedicated to their vocation. I've seen married eastern Catholic priests make large arguments to that very point. The only people saying they are equal/married priests are superior are people psyopped by mass media trying to degrade the Church.
>>23433338
Electrical society is more participatory, we live in a different world. I get the appeal and prefer the latin mass aesthetically but I'd also prefer a pre-electrical age aesthetically but that's not the age we live in. It's also as I said above not actually part of the novus ordo, if you have not seen a latin novus ordo that strictly follows the rite it's worth seeing at least once. The dominican rite, anglican rite (basically tlm in english), I believe opus dei and many diocesan priests do something closer to that.

Doesn't the Orthodox practice of having national churches that perform the liturgy in the vernacular (aside from those that do it in Church Slavonic, I guess) sidestep the Latin Mass versus Novus Ordo debate?

>>23433372
yeah until you live in the US and go to the closest eastern orthodox church and it's 100% in russian lol

>>23433361
>opus dei
I havent ever interacted with them but ive been intrigued as to who they were. ive yet to make an opinion on them but wanted to investigate at some point.
>>23433360
>e tradmemes a
I get that but the memes are kind of real. every novus ordo mass is different and ive found decent priests but a lot of them are this cringey "how do you do fellow kids" approach. theres no discussion of doctrine or beliefs. most american catholics dont even believe in transubstantiation anymore. i go to a novus ordo mass and i see belly shirts, cleavage and people on phones. i go to a latin mass and i see kids sitting quietly and people in line for penance.
>why the rest of the church doesnt like you
I mean thats a bit of a broad stroke considering latin mass is surging in popularity and even the old boomer novus ordo churches are (or were until recently) offering latin masses suddenly again. That trend doesnt strike me as a sign that trads are disliked but rather spreading in belief.
> I pray the novus ordo mass sincerely and attentively, afaik that's what everyone else is doing too
i dont doubt that but do you take communion in your hand from a non priest? Being sincere doesnt mean you avoid error.

>>23433378
theres an ukrianian orthodox church near my parents. ive never been in but curious now what they speak these days and if theyre part of the new ukraine see or still russia or something else.

>>23433378
The first time I went to an EO service it was at an Antiochian parish in rural Kansas. The whole thing was in English. Supposedly the closest GOARCH and ROCOR churches also gave services in English as well. Maybe I just got lucky by being in an area without a strong immigrant presence which would lead to the formation of heavily ethnocentric parishes like on the East Coast or something.

>>23433388
My experience was like a decade ago, I remember looking at Churches and the entire site was just in russia. I was in a weird area w/ lots of russian immigrants though. We actually had the biggest group of old calendrists in the US right near there

>>23432961
When you get down to it I'm Catholic because that's where I'm from and what my culture is. It's genuinely not even something I feel like I get to "choose." That said, my personal opinions for Catholicism over Orthodoxy:
>The divinely inspired scripture (Ephesians) says that the Church should have unity. Catholics want unity. Orthodox don't
>Orthodox bishops in 692 added works to the Bible after the canon was already definitively closed in 381, taking spurious works that were completely irrelevant to the Church Fathers and adding them just to drive a wedge between Christians that swore allegiance to Constantinople and those that accepted the Papacy (which in practice was just the Byzantines being upset that the Papacy recognized the HRE as the "new Rome" over them, completely political)
>The Orthodox churches are in schism with each other over secular politics (Russia/Ukraine)
>Orthodox want to play up how "original" they are and yet they still modernized enough to cause a schism between the "normal" Orthodox and the Old Believers
>The term "Catholic Church" is several centuries older than the term "orthodox" as noted here >>23423618

>>23433372
The Maronites (Catholics) were doing their own Syriac Liturgies in the fourth century. The Latin Mass "debates" are hollow culture war buzz usually only fought usually only instigated by ultra-zealous converts.

>>23433393
these are all really good points and part of why i kind of disregarded orthodoxy as a viable option.
> HRE as the "new Rome
I recall reading a history on byzantine and there was a point where the HRE or Carolingian/Merovingian was going to marry the byzantine queen. Wasnt irene or zoe i think but cant remember now but i know the Byzantines went ballistic over the franks trying to claim the title emperor of the romans.
>>23433410
>>23433372
no because the roman position would be that the orthodox have been in error for a multitude of things that being one of them on the disciplinary side. so it doesnt side step it really but rather affirm the catholics position that language probably matters.

I don't get why the Latin Mass is such a controversial topic.
I go to the new Mass, but if some people want to go to Latin Mass what is wrong with it? Let them go. It is a valid Mass.
Why bother to fight with them? It is not like they are promoting heresy.

>>23433427
>I don't get why the Latin Mass is such a controversial topic.
because the argument boils down to is changing the mass in vatican 2 the source of modern church corruption, decay and spiritual lethargy. Yes or no will define your side in a way.

>>23433427
>>23433436
Actually lemme clairify. It boils down to wether the second vatican council was a legitimate council that change doctrine and if so for the better or worse. the latin mass side say it changed it for the worse since it changed 1900+ years of tradition, prayers and beliefs and ushered in the wave of James Martin style catholics who would change doctrine to meet progressives on matters such as lgbt and divorce and such. Not all novus ordo people support the liberalization but none of the people who support gay marriage in the church go to latin mass.

>>23414696
>>23414727

I want you to read Job and Ecclesiastes and really try to understand them both. They are the two most important pieces of scripture behind John. I will explain a little further down. At some point "The Desperate Man", by Leon Bloyd, I feel like you would identify with it very well.


Why do you want to be good? Why do you want to be perfect? You have said,"it's because that's what Christ and the Church asks of us". You have sold many possessions, denied yourself many worldly pleasures, and you cry in the night that if you had only given up that one last worldly pleasures you perhaps could have alleviated someone else's suffering. I want to understand you some more anon before I give my 2 cents. You say you regret doing these things because you are not sure if you will profit from them. You see others living in nice homes, driving nice cars, with nice families, living good lives. Worldly lives. And here you are, suffering, after all those good deeds. I understand your resentment, I really do. Where is the reward? Tell me am I hitting the mark?

I think Jansen was right

>>23408193
Thomas Joseph White is the standard bearer of this movement and heads up the Angelicum

>>23408193
Benedict Ashley is a good one, his book way toward wisdom is a great overview of metaphysics. Compares hinduism/bhuddist metaphysics with western ones
Feser has a good overview of the general schools
https://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2009/10/thomistic-tradition-part-i.html

>>23415300
Couple of things:
>state of grace
This means God is in your soul. For you, I would argue having some luxuries sometimes would be better for you because humility and acceptance in the face of our own powerlessness is better than worldly charity.
>possession is stealing
Yes and no. Early Church Fathers (prepare for screeching) still were figuring out how to distinguish revealed religion from natural religion. For example, if capitalism feeds the poor better than feudal charity then capitalism is a more charitable governance and should be embraced (the Church endorses science and business for these reasons), but natural religion, like fasting, repeated prayers, and what have you are totally meaningless in themselves but only in so far if they serve true revealed Faith. Let me say this in perfect sense: giving one dollar to a single beggar with true love in your heart is better than giving a billion out of simple utility and hating the poor and wanting poverty to be erased. Money is not an end of charity but a mode in which we can express love - to totally get rid of everything you own is noble and good but to say possessions somehow crowd out God and limit God's work in you beyond your own virtue is silly. God is not limited by Sacraments nor by your virtue but by your willingness to be loved by Him. St. Thomas is great but we can't let him be a prison guard on the Faith. Be in a state of grace and be loved - that is more than enough for Salvation but perfection is when we give to love not give to give.

>>23433924
>>23415300
To continue (I'd prefer you'd speak with a very very holy priest than me but given you're here this is who you get): Fasting can be fasted from for the sake of humility and for those who need to feel God's love. I give to charity within my means and deny myself every now and then but St. Ignatius of Loyola says fasting from one sentence is worth a week of bread and water. Even then, I decide sometimes to not fast because I know that my spiritual progress is non-linear and up to God entirely is sometimes all I can, and really should, do. My goal is perfection, of course, but not on my terms visibly or even invisibly. IFor example, some Fridays I say just an Our Father over skipping meat because it's permitted and I want to let God have an opportunity to just love me regardless of my sinfulness. I am not a great faster. I can't go without sleep. I nap in the afternoons. I am lazy and prideful - but, I know how broken and wounded I am and that God will meet me where I'm at. I decided to have a nice big BBQ meal today because I thought denying myself would spiritually help me and then I realized trying to develop myself spiritually, on my terms, was even worse than some extra yummy calories. In short, visible signs of your own sanctity should be avoided. Vices, when accepted as vices and recognizing that sometimes your indulging in them because you are too weak to do without them and need God's merciful love, are then no longer vices per se but rather you baptize everything in you to be working towards God. This isn't some mental gymnastics to sin but rather what I have found humility looks like.

>>23433966
>>23415300
The key, perhaps, is that you should seek out religious life, specifically a brotherhood track, but if not, humility far surpasses any fast you can make. St. Teresa of Calcutta said herself poverty is easy to fix but the lonely wanderer is much harder. You help him with showing him the love you let God shine through you. If you tell God, "God, I want you to shine Your love through me as much as possible and I will always say yes but know that I am a sinful wretch and will indulge myself but will trust you to save me from grave sin." Will He say no or somehow can God not use someone who naps and eats too much ice cream? Please - God only wants to be asked and He'll do the rest. If I gave up ice cream for the rest of my life (I'm very attached) for the sake of God versus just told God I was a sinner and thanking Him for the reminder in my imperfections, the latter is FAR better.

>>23433212
>Yeah as far as I know they used to allow priests to break the seal of the confession to tell the state. If they didn't their families would be murdered. Married priests kind of creates the opening to get manipulated by the state much easier.
You know I never even thought about this aspect of priestly celibacy. As representatives of a social class that could (and has many times) run afoul of the powers that be, married men will feel like they have a lot more to lose and may not have the same level of conviction because of it. I always thought of priestly celibacy as being a logistical measure because it would curb nepotism of some bishop appointing his own son as his successor and hurting the Church with a stagnant dynasticism.

>>23433352
>only 23 churches?
23 Churches in the same sense that the Roman Catholic Church is "only 1 church." Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches are pretty tiny and localized, but several of them have several millions of adherents.

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>>23433352
>aren't they literally like only 23 churhces?
For the Byzantine Rite, there are 14 sui iuris churches.
>>23434514
>Some of the Eastern Catholic Churches are pretty tiny and localized, but several of them have several millions of adherents.
Very true. Churches like in Macedonia or in Russia only have a single bishop, whilst the Ukrainian has millions.
And although there can be married priests in the Byzantine Churches, it is nonetheless not permitted in the US specifically; thanks mainly to the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen.

>>23434016
>St. Teresa of Calcutta said herself poverty is easy to fix
Ok give me money then retard. She can give me some from her grave too.

>>23434649
When did the Church started accepting different rites in exchange for loyalty to Rome? Which non-Latin Church defected first?

>>23434727
You're likely accurately angry at the new pagan-invented service/slave class that basically perpetuates itself via education-discrimination. However, her poverty she means is having zero clothing or zero water or zero food - it's not the sensation of perpetually needing to work to survive in our godless, natureless, and joyless suburban hellscapes to feed a car engine tank, albeit this creates a spiritual poverty that she says is worse.

>>23434988
Moron I don't have money to live. When you go and try to buy a fucking potato the guy demands fucking money.

>>23434743
>When did the Church started accepting different rites in exchange for loyalty to Rome?
The Church was always accepting; the difference of rites wasn't the issue, and many attempts to unite had always been made (Councils of Lyon 2 and Florence, as examples).
It accepted the other churches the moment those same adhered once more to the authority of the Holy See, and accepted some of the matters deemed dogmatic.
The Ukrainians (Ruthenia) were the first to return towards full communion, during the late 16th century.

>>23434514
>always thought of priestly celibacy as being a logistical measure because it would curb nepotism of some bishop appointing his own son as his successor and hurting the Church with a stagnant dynasticism.
Celibacy is considered a higher state by the Church.
Also, a celibate priest can concern himself with solely caring about being a priest. If he has a family he has other duties.

>>23435056
I'll pray for your.

>>23399147
>Catho/lit/
>Mere Christianity, the Bible of lukewarm indifferentism
heretical thread

should I join the Dominicans

>>23436629

Yes

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there’s too much shit to read. i’m 25 and never going to get through it all. how do I cope? I also want to learn to draw

>>23437329
>i’m 25 and never going to get through it all
Patristics
>I also want to learn to draw
Loomis

>>23414696
Shalom Rabbi, have you poisoned any other wells?

>>23414696
How did you recover from having $0 and being homeless and without anything and anyone in the world?

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Happy Corpus Christi!

I'm reading manuals in ascetic and mystic theology. In the translator notes of one of them, they mention they don't teach that in seminaries anymore.
Which is kind of shocking to me. The books are very didactic, straight to the point and helpful for practice.

I would strongly recommend everyone here to read them.

>>23437855
what Manuals, why did they call them manuals anyway

What is your favorite books to meditate on the rosary?

>>23423589
Anon, Sedevacants are Protestants.

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>>23424378
Based, but I don't know (and am too scared) to go outside my house.

>>23437329
>how do I cope?
Audiobooks.

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>>23437824
Glory Glory Glory!

>>23436761
Is there an age limit to join the Dominicans? I'm 27

>>23440062
35 is typically the limit - depends on country and province

>>23440423
So what exactly can I do at 45? Just fuck off and die?

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So what's the verdict here on these blokes. Overhated? Not hated enough? Appropriately rated? Somewhere in between?

>>23440934
Have done more to spread the Faith than any other order. Appropriately rated.

I don't like any of the big CathoTubers, Trent, Atkins, the Diamond Brothers, that fag Pints with Aquinas. The only one I can tolerate is that guy from Catholic Answers because he gets straight to the point.

>>23440934
Looking at their whole history, I might have to lean overhated honestly. Yes they dipped into politics a lot and too many of the modern ones in the Americas in particular are liberal to the point of borderline or genuine heresy, an issue that needs no introduction. That said, their achievements in missionary work and the field of education are truly considerable. Also Ignatian spirituality is great and a lot of those early Jesuit missionaries were truly incredible people. I can't help but love the stories of guys like Matteo Ricci and his companions. I hope to reach that level myself some day.

>>23440934
They have a good past, but have been in a huge crisis since Vatican II.

>>23440869
Cursing is a venial sin so respecting God would be a good start. Benedictines have higher age limits also dioscesan priesthood has none.

>>23440934
My friend is discerning them and knows a lot of them behind closed doors. They pretty much all dislike Fr. James Martin and also are extremely concerned for their order - most of them are orthodox and the younger Jesuits are, albeit admittedly Jesuits in taking the letter of Canon law and running with it, very orthodox and even lean TLM friendly.

>>23441011
Respect my shit in your mouth retard.

>>23441013
Honestly that's really good to hear. I've been kind of enthralled with the SJ for long time and have often had thoughts about a vocation there, but its such a tremendous time and spiritual commitment that some of those concerns were getting to me.

>>23441013
I'm happy with this.
It was kind of sad that Jesuits had abandoned Catholic doctrine and became more or less an atheist liberal NGO. It is nice to see them recover.

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Anime is a near occasion of sin

>>23441552
Watch LotGH or Haibane Renmei sometime, maybe you'll change your mind.

>>23441794
Most anime paints the church in a villainous light. This, "Anime is right wing art" idea is laughable and only serves as a cope to justify the continuation of its consumption. Not even mentioning the entire "ecchi" aspect.

>>23441824
It's a medium like movies or TV. You're applying the tropes of shitty isekai shows to the whole medium so you can present it as some kind of nebulous anti-Catholic force or whatever.
If the existence of anime offends you so much why the fuck do you even use this website?

>>23441847
That's what a near occasion of sin is. Anime isn't inherently bad and can be used for good. This website also could be a near occasion of sin but I've had a lot of great things come from it so I'm conflicted on the issue. Also I'm just addicted to coming here, full disclosure. We should take the media we consume more seriously. The who laxity of that process ("who cares, it's just anime girls lol") is a terrible mindset if you take the faith seriously.

"Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goeth about seeking whom he may devour."

>>23441552
On the contrary, I propose that anime possesses a unique aesthetic charm. Consider the delightful series “GochiUsa” (short for “Is the Order a Rabbit?”). This show, is like sipping chamomile tea on a sunny afternoon. Its pastel hues, endearing characters, and gentle humor create a soothing ambiance. Surely, even the sternest critic would find solace in the whimsical café of Rabbit House.

>>23441824
Trigun and Ultraman were both created by Japanese Catholics and have some pretty pro-Christian themes. Complaining about ecchi to dismiss all anime is kind of like complaining about porn to dismiss all movies. But I don't want to get offtopic with anime nonsense.

For what it's worth, the Archduke of the Habsburgs and Knight of Malta likes anime (while admitting some of it is degenerate) btw.
https://x.com/EduardHabsburg/status/1583896238365495298

>>23442179
>Complaining about ecchi to dismiss all anime
Never dismissed all anime, see my previous comment where I say it isn't inherently bad.

Ecchi culture in anime exists even in slice of life anime which usually involves multiple young girls who act as eye candy for the male viewer. This male viewer will try to masquerade their interest in it by saying it's just lighthearted cute comedy. And of course there is high quality anime like those created by Miyazaki, but even he famously recognized that "anime was a mistake".

Also the discussion of what media we should be wary of consuming as Catholics is appropriate and not off topic in a thread discussing catholic literature.

>>23442262
>"anime was a mistake"
You know that's literally a shitpost quote and Miyazaki never actually said that, right?

>>23441552
not in a society where going outside you see worse things, hell most western stuff has far more explicit nudity/sex most people don't find it as shocking or an occasion of sin (which is highly dependent on circumstance)
this is just autistic people reading 16th century writings out of context +
most likely over-zealous converts who view conversion of a rejection of themselves, their history, and their culture which likely formed them. If you've never grown up with Anime then sure don't watch it (you dont deserve it). If you did it's part of your history, and doing some hyper-traditionalist larp to over-correct to try and replace your history is just a larp (and anti-patriotic). (but probably a formative stage you'll grow out of if it is recent, which I'm guessing it is)

>>23443345
Sorry, he said it's an insult to life itself, my bad.

>>23443363
>um most of society does it so it's ok
Isn't going to cut it at the pearly gates. Trying to connect anime with some type of history and culture is laughable. It's a degenerate hobby and everyone knows it. I'm a cradle catholic, not a convert, but once you are baptized you are renewed and called to reject the world. This is just what it means to be Christian and carry your cross.

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>>23421561
>Convince me of Catholicism over Orthodoxy. Give me all you got.
Spend some time browsing through this blog. There's a lot of good, theologically informed commentary:

https://erickybarra.wordpress.com/

E.g., re the subject of the Formula of Hormisdas:

https://erickybarra.wordpress.com/2019/06/29/the-papacy-in-history-fr-alexander-schmemann/

https://erickybarra.wordpress.com/2017/11/18/the-curious-reply-of-patriarch-john-ii-of-constantinple-to-formula-of-hormisas-519-ad/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDt1quE_Iu4

And Pope Agatho:
https://erickybarra.wordpress.com/2021/08/13/did-pope-agatho-teach-papal-infallibility-in-his-dogmatic-epistle-accepted-by-the-6th-ecumenical-council/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_gSVkSElbk

Pic related also presents a very notable argument wrt to Catholic Claims.

Lastly, although they're wrong about the Chair, their critique of Palamism is devastating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d07mgLoOW8g

Along different, somewhat more intuitive lines than those set forth in the above, rigorously argued video, I definitely find it sus that Palamas developed an entire theology - his tortured essence/energies "distinction" (which he variously argued was and was not an actual distinction) - to defend an alleged (prelest?) mystical phenomenon (the hesychast monks).

It is rather like Luther developing an entire theology out of his "Tower Experience" moment of mystic revelation -- even though his new theory of justification required him to effectively (if not in actual fact) dispose of the Epistle of James.

In both cases, the attempt to reconcile personal mystical experience with established Christian doctrine resulted in novel theological interpretations. And in both cases the new interpretation created a major schism in the Church -- which tends to make one wonder about the ultimate source of the mystical experience that underlay and drove the new theology. It was certainly not the spirit that Christ prayed for in John 17:20-23, but rather, it would seem, something quite different:

>I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
>that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us,
>***that the world may believe that You sent Me.***

>And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: I in them, and You in Me;
>that they may be made perfect in one,
>***that the world may believe that You have sent Me.***

>>23443456
>It's a degenerate hobby and everyone knows it. I'm a cradle catholic, not a convert, but once you are baptized you are renewed and called to reject the world. This is just what it means to be Christian and carry your cross.
this is just autistic larping
detatchment from the world that saints call for isn't your autistic larping and expressing your anti-social desires through the words of saints doesn't change the root
We are also called to patriotism, honoring our father and mother, and to participate in our society in a positive way. Larping as a monk when you are on 4chan is just deranged, and as I said your are just abusing the language of the Church. If you have no background in weeb stuff, yes don't go into it, but that's what culture is nowadays and calling people who are shaped by it to dismiss it as a whole is equal to telling a german to detatch from german culture because of nazis. It's just a vile protestant gnosticism that has no understanding of the incarnate aspect of the Church

>>23443456
That quote was actually about machine learning (AI) so he's kinda based for that one.

>>23443652
I do think he has a point in the fact that there is a LOT of sexualized shit ingratiated into the general "culture" of anime that's just accepted. If you go to any large anime convention it is very likely that you will see a lot of shit that I don't think kids under a certain age should be exposed to. That said, I don't think it's inherently sinful to seek and discern things that can be positive entertainment. I was never into Dragon Ball as a kid but I'd sure trust its positive values for boys over the kinds of shit coming out of Netflix or Disney these days.

>>23443652
The original post saying it was an occasion of sin was hyperbolic. I thought the meme was funny because it's probably true that Aquinas would be disgusted by it and the culture surrounding it, similar to how a dad might be disappointed seeing his adult son watching Japanese cartoons.

Obviously not all anime is bad (I enjoy Ghibli, HxH, One Piece etc). But over the years I've realized that it probably isn't the best media to engage with considering the vast majority of it will thrust ecchi on you unexpectedly (Just like 4chan, I know, which is why I try to only stay on /lit/ but even this board sometimes has its issues).

>We are also called to patriotism, honoring our father and mother, and to participate in our society in a positive way
The hobby promotes anti-social behavior and it has nothing to do with patriotism. If you do find a community of weebs it's probably degenerate (this site). Obviously Catholics must reject society if it produces anything contrary to the moral law. This isn't abusing the language of the church or LARPing, just catechism and proper safeguarding of the soul.

>>23441053
Jesuits need smart people and orthodox people. Ignore some of the liberal washing and get to know them behind closed doors.
>>23441278
It's a strong order. Intellectual submission will mean they will never totally degenrate but they're close right now.