Why can you physically only cast a fireball twice a day? Makes me feel less like a wizard
>>92817019
>>92817019>What are spell slots literally?
>>92817019Oh look, it's another "retard plays D&D and then complains about it instead of just playing a better game" thread.You people should be taxed for being this retarded.
>>92817232I'm fairly certain most of these kinds of threads is made by one person.
>>92817019A spell slot is a hole in your body that you insert the spell in.
>>92817148The PHB doesn't actually answer OP's question at all. It doesn't even address it. And no, spell slots have never, ever, ever made any sense and should have been replaced with spell points back in 1977 at the latest.>>92817248Funny you should say that, because I'm certain the "STOP TALKING ABOUT THE MOST POPULAR RPG IN THE WORLD" posts are all made by one person.
>>92817019>OP plays game that anyone who's not a consoomer normie will tell you is shit.>Is somehow surprised to find out that it's shit.There's a reason why HYTNPDND (Have You Tried Not Playing DnD) is a meme around here, and it's not because it's bad advice.
>>92817019DnD magic system is based on Jack Vance's Dying Earth books, where magic required long and complex rituals that would normally make it impossible to cast spells on the go so wizards would go through most of the ritual when they had time and just do the finishing steps when they actually wanted to cast the spell. DnD wizards memorizing the spells they want to cast at the beginning of the day and only able to cast those spells is supposed to be a similar concept.It worked better in the books since it was made clear that just holding a single spell memorized required a tremendous amount of mental fortitude and concentration, since you needed to memorize in exacting detail every aspect of a long and complex ritual and then hold a mass of half-formed magical energy stabled in your mind until the right moment to finish the casting process and release it. Only the most powerful wizards in the world could do that for more than 1 spell at the time, and even then only for a couple. By simplifying it into your character having a bunch of slots they can memorize spells into you kind of lose the aspect that it's supposed to emulate and just becomes a magic equivalent of loading bullets into a magazine.
>>92817277>The PHB doesn't actually answer OP's question at all
>>92817019you can only memorize lyrics of so many songs, but the song bend very fabric of reality
>>92817019Meme answer: Spell slots are the goddess of magic arbitrarily limiting how much magic you can do until you "discover" secrets about magic that she herself made secrets for incredibly arbitrary reasons. Serious Answer: Play better games. If you want to feel like a Wizard, look into Ars Magica, MAGE Ascention, or one of the several Harry Potter systems.
>>92817314What if the only lyric I want is FIREBALL. Why can I only sing it twice in a day? It's not because my vocal cords get blown out, I can still cast Shield afterwards.
>>92817277Ooh, say something about the worst troll on /tg/ next!
>>92817305It literally doesn't.
>>92817232>retard plays D&D and then complains about it instead of just playing a better gamebut I'm just asking what spell slots are, literally. You should read the title of the thread before making a post on this website.>>92817148This doesn't answer my question.>>92817294You sound a little mad.>>92817316I know better systems exist, I just wanna know if there's an actual explanation behind spell slots, or if its just a relic of ancient gamey system jank
>>92817335>What if the only lyric I want is FIREBALL. Why can I only sing it twice in a day?I hope to god you are only baiting and are not actually this retarded.
>>92817414>>92817423
>>92817425Nah, he's right. The song lyric analogy makes no sense.
>>92817436There is literally no explanation in the PHB what a spell slot is supposed to be in-world and why it behaves in the exact specific idiotically unnatural way it does, that has nothing at all to do with the human memory. There is no explanation because it cannot be explained, literally nothing in real world works like it. Your shitposts don't change this.>>92817298This is the origin of it but it still doesn't work as an explanation. The only course that makes sense is throwing spell memorization in trash and replacing it with a mana meter.
>>92817476>There is literally no explanation in the PHB what a spell slot is supposed to be in-world
>>92817019Playing a wizard is fucking gay and homosexual anyways. Wizards should be rare and mysterious old men, not some faggot anime character
Magic isn’t real retarded faggot
>>92817019If there is nothing else I hate about D&D (and there is plenty to hate about it) is that it doesn't do anything interesting lorewise or mechanically with a lot of the stuff they built up.You'd think it would be a good opportunity to really set Arcane apart from Divine but they done.
>>92817476>A good historical, mechanical, and fluff explanation>noooo I don't like it so it doesn't countThink of it as game balance for your precious wizards. Taking an hour to cast Prismatic Spray makes you kinda helpless in melee combat, so now you can have a special mechanic giving you a few contingencies in case your wizard is accosted by a lout with a rapier.
>>92817476>This is the origin of it but it still doesn't work as an explanationYes it does.
>>92817476Here's a trvely flavorful Vancian fix for game balance in D&D:Wizards can cast any spell any time as much as they want - it takes 1 hour per spell level so Meteor Swarm takes 9 hours to cast. Wizards can memorize 1 spell (any level) per point of their intelligence bonus by taking the same time to set it up as a hanging contingency and trigger it with a standard action releasing the ritual.So Turjan, a level 14 caster with Int 18, might have up to 4 spells ready of up to 7th level each.
>>92818136That's not how magic works in Dying Earth. How it works is you can memorize a certain number of spells, have to select them carefully, and you may forget them when you cast them, depending on how late in the series you are.
>>92817019AD&D 2E introduced a mana-style Spell Point system that allowed you to cast spells in a different method than the traditional memorization-based daily allotment.
>>92817277Spell slots have always made sense, they're just a very, very stupid way of abstracting how much magic energy a caster has available.
>>92817232The worst part is they literally have a containment-General to ask these sorts of stupid questions.
>>92817476>This is the origin of it but it still doesn't work as an explanation.its a vestigial explanation, because in the original rules, it takes 15 minutes per total spell levels to memorise all spells - essentially fireball is a 45 minute ritual if you were to just read it straight out of the book, but at the start of the day if you spend 45 minutes "memorising" (casting the first 99% of the spell, and "holding" the completion) fireball then you can finish it off later in the day, but if you repeat those final words a second time, theres nothing to "complete". its not so much that you have alzheimers, but that its just a shorthand word for the rules to usechanging spell memorisation to a flat and small amount of time ruins this explantion, but i hope that helps you understand
>>92817019They are "literally" an imaginary slot in which you can put spells. As in the spells you prepare for that day/outing. That's the "literal answer".Your question is shitty. I'll rephrase it," What do spell slots represent?" Their design is less based on simulation and more on tactics because that is DnD's roots in war gaming. You have to make a choice on x level spells, on y level, on z level. If they were all in the same basket such as MP you would just relay on a few.Please work on phrasing your posts better. I was the kid who could barely pass English and now I feel like I'm a teacher in a class of middle schoolers.
>>92817423Spell slots are a representation of how much brainspace a spell occupies
>>92817019>What are Mana Points?>What are Focus Points?>What are Stamina Points?>What are Ki Points?>What are Sorcery Points?>What are Action Surges?>What are Skill Tricks?>What are Vestiges?>Why can I only use a breath effect once per turn but I can inhale and exhale several times in 6 seconds?A. B. S. T. R. A. C. T. I. O. N. S.But anyway, what you're looking for is 3.5's Recharge Magic variant. Also>physically only cast a fireball twice a day.>physically cast a fireball>physically cast.OP you're going to have to explain how you're casting Fireball at all first. Is someone just sending you two explosive devices every day?
>>92820487All that stuff you listed is DnD stuff and all has the issue of not making sense why you can only do it x times per day.Ki, for example, isn't even very strong, but you have to rest a full hour to recover it. Why? Other games abstract stamina but they don't put an arbitrary ammunition number on it and say "can't do it again until you rest for an hour". Most stamina systems would assume your stamina came back between fights, so you can keep playing and not break the action.
>>92820365>now I feel like I'm a teacher in a class of middle schoolers.Yeah, but language is supposed to regress over time, so it's okay.
>>92817248>>92817277>t. retardsthere are only two posters and i'm both of them
>>92817019Nobody in the hobby nowadays has read Jack Vance
>>92821668>Most stamina systems would assume your stamina came back between fights, so you can keep playing and not break the action.That is LITERALLY how the 4e 'per-encounter' powers worked and nobody liked it.
>>92817335Each fireball is its own, unique song. If you repeat the lyrics, they lose their magic.
>>92817019Play prowlers and paragons.
>>92817305Feel free to provide a page citation any time.
>>92817425Well? Why can he only sing it twice a day? If it's such a stupid question it should be quite trivial to answer and embarrass him.
>>92817742No such explanations exist in the book.
>>92823108On the contrary, I'm currently using a system with no limits at all on power usage, and it's a huge improvement.
>>92823181
>>92817423>This doesn't answer my question.If only there was some book series that the D&D magic system was explicitly based on...
I want you to recite pi to twenty-seven digits in your head while doing other things and holding conversations and if you ever stop repeating it or mix up the numbers at any time you should punch yourself right in the nose. That's spell slots.
Spell slots literally exist in real life guys, it’s not complicated
>>92823663That's different. Those are hitpoints.
>>92817019>Why can you physically only cast a fireball twice a day? Makes me feel less like a wizardSpell slots are mental partitions.spells require a certain amount of brainpower to properly conceptualize molding magic into the desired effect.as you advance in the class you get better at forming the partitions making more efficient use of your brain.a fresh wizard uses more space in their brain for magic missile than a veteran wizard since they have yet to master all the mental exercises to minimize the needs of the spell.
>>92823433>tourists>reading ayylmao
>doesnt understand how actual magic worksyou can only devote yourself to so many gods and spirits at a time, it takes more and more study to properly devote yourself to each god which grants certain powers, thus it makes sense that your spell slots increase with time as your intel/wisdom/whatever stat increases. also alot of spells required physical objects, they werent just some crap you chanted. nonono, old school real historical magic is fucking expensive and long and essentially a complex experiment; alot of them even give the vibes of a primitive or poorly understood scientific experiment of some kind. you often needed expensive metal powders, herbs, animal parts, etc to perform each spell or ritual. maybe your fireballs only work if you imagine fire while throwing a bunch of gold-dust at someone. can only afford so much gold dust a day man. im not wasting anymore so out comes the runic sword. i will die before owing money to a goblin ever again
>>92823326>>92817305>>92817148Show me in the book where it says what spell slots are from an in-universe diegetic perspective. That is what the OP is asking for, and no edition of D&D even tries to explain it. We only get loose handwaves that never explain why the system is the way it is. Only that it is that way.Maybe you should read books other than 5E, that way you would have some actual reading comprehension.
>>92817019>konoshitbaFuck off, no games
>>92817277> spell slots have never, ever, ever made any sense and should have been replaced with spell pointsThen we’d have some simp posting “what are spell points really?” instead.
>>92824006>no edition of D&D even tries to explain it.>ignoring the 1e dmg spelling out EXACTLY how spellcasting workslol, lmao even
Has anyone tried playing D&D with a Mana system instead of spell slots? Is it noticeably better or worse?
>>92821668>Most stamina systems would assume your stamina came back between fightsThat's uhhh not accurate at all to any system I have ever played and I cannot think of a single example of a system that has "stamina points" that regenerate without resting. Meanwhile I can think of SEVERAL very popular systems that do require rest to remove "fatigue" or regain "stamina".>VtM: Must rest or feed>Warhammer: Must rest>GURPS: Must rest>Exalted: Must rest>L5R (if you consider VP to be stamina): Must rest>UESRPG; Must rest>SotDL: Must rest>DSA: Must rest>SW: Must rest>BitD (if you consider Stress to be a "stamina point" feature): Must indulge in your vice in town (resting)>Torchbearer (if 'exhausted' condition counts): Must rest>Burning Wheel: As above >Even fucking D&D requires rest to remove fatigue
>>92824367It's easier for most people to conceptualize but also people don't manage the points well and tend to either do a lot of really little spells all the time or blow their whole day's worth in a few actions. The SL system is unintuitive but it increases variety and creates more tension.
>>92824367
>>92823216> I'm currently using a system with no limits at all on power usage, and it's a huge improvementBullshit. If you were, you’d have named it.
>>92817019spell = softwareslot = RAMsleep = flush RAM
>>92817019A daft, short-sighted way to curb the power of mages in your games.
>>92817019use spell points>>92823108technically no, 4e "encounter" came back on a short rest, it's just short rests were much, much, much shorter and easier to achieve in 4e than in 5e.>>92823105oh you mean the lich from stranger things?
>>92817019Because DnD is a bad game. There is an explanation, but it's bad and it doesn't even work in-universe, and it's not even supported or mentioned by the newer editions anymore.
>>92826940This explanation doesn't work, you can't just exchange multiple lower level spells with a higher level spell or a higher level spell for multiple lower level ones.You can do that with RAM usage though.
>>92817019At this point, my headcanon is they are simply different tiers of mana.Although I am fairly sure they are intended to represent something actuall about the setting.
>>92817019Imagine for a second, you had a rune. It describes a spell, in doing so holding all the details needed to make that spell work. Because it's so precise, you keep it inside of a book for safe-keeping.Every day, after a full and uninterrupted REM cycle, you open that book. You copy the rune in your head, and with it, the spell. All of its specific, arbitrary functions are now in your head.You can't do this infinitely. Spells are too complicated. Otherwise, you wouldn't need to write them down.A magician's 'spell slots' are a measure of how many spells of varying complexity and difficulty they can memorize and maintain at once. Even if they prepare others later, the REM cycle is what clears their head of used and broken spell information.A D&D wizard is a cram student with a god complex.
>>92829118That's contrived and dumb also.
>>92824563Prowlers and Paragons.Seriously, are you so new to this hobby that you can't imagine a gameplay element as simple as "no arbitrary limitations on doing fun things"?
>>92823326Got it. Concession accepted.
>>92823433If it's not a rule in the rulebook, it's not a part of the game.
>>92823963Arcane magic doesn't have anything to do with gods or spirits. Nice try though.
>>92817277How do spell points make any more sense? They just offer more flexibility but are an equally arbitrary abstraction. There's no more quantifiable, tangible "magic point" in any system than there is a quantifiable, tangible "spell slot."
>>92830861How so you explain ”hit points” or points of damage in in-universe any better and less arbitrary way than spell points?
>>92827986Wanting an in-narrative explanation of why stupid mechanics exist isn't ever a bad faith request.
>>92830996I don't, but I'm not a cock-garbling faggot whose autism is triggered by shit like spell slots.>>92831009So, hey. DM for me. Let me spam Power Word: Kill at will.
>>92830861It's easy to imagine wizards as having a pool of mana points. You cast too many spells and you have to have a nap and get some points back, it makes intuitive sense.Spell slots as they exist in modern D&D don't work like this, and they don't work like the spells described in Vance's Dying Earth either, which make sense on their own terms. No spellcasters really prepare their spells in D&D 5e, they just have a limited number of charges to cast spells of each level that they can access. Why can't I exchange three level 1 charges to cast one level 3 spell? There must be some reason in the metaphysics of the setting, but it's never addressed.
>>92817019It's a game and not a simulator
>>92830996Easy, you get hit and lose hit points.
>>92831009Always is, rather.
>>92832107You can't because the rules don't permit. No metaphysical reason is required.
>>92823105“In the hobby” is a subset of “in the world, ever”, so yeah.
>>92832107I genuinely don't see how your explanation is any more easy to imagine than spell slots. I could swap the names and have just as easy a time imagining it. I think it's been a thing for a few editions that you can "trade down" and cast a spell to greater effect if you use a higher level slot than is required.But if we get into it, we get into shit like why can't Barbarians get angry more than a set number of times per day, or why Paladins can't hate you for being a heretic more times per day, or why a druid can't be their fursona more times per day. These are abstracted mechanics so that you don't just spam Power Word: Kill every round. Stop being a dingus.
>>92817019Spell slots are from tabletop players not knowing how to read or not liking the idea, its literally a house rule. Originally you memorized your spells, if you cast fireball, you could only cast it once a day. 3rd edition DND is where the invention of spell slots and "Well you can now have multiple spell slots and can use those to cast fireball more than once per day" came into existence. And remember, casters were considered powerful prior to 3rd edition even though each of their spells they knew could only be cast ONCE PER DAY.
>>92832975Which of course is unnecessary. Just make power word kill balanced and it's not a problem.
>>92833023Why do you post shit without actually knowing what you're talking about?
>>92817019>What are spell slots literally?They are the mind's capability to hold arcane energy as precast rituals. Each spell level equals a magnitude of larger spell energy, thus why cantrips are easy and 9th level spells are incredibly difficult and limited to cast. Through training and spell use, you train your mind to hold more and more of these precast rituals, subject to certain limits of the mortal mind.>Why can you physically only cast a fireball twice a day? Makes me feel less like a wizardYou haven't trained yourself to hold more spell energy, and thus can only hold two fireball rituals within it. EIther get more levels or play other systems.Playing D&D isnt going to let you feel like a wizard from other media (most often because they would be sorcerers in D&D). Wizards in D&D are a unique feel of wizard, and being low level will feel limited.>>92817148>>92817277>>92817305>>928240065e doesn't explain spell slots, Ive looked. 4e doesn't care about spell slots because of AEDU. 3.x is the only system that actually hints at what a spell slot is but never actually says what they are (the inferred way they work is my explanation above). Pathfinder 2e is the only D&D-like to actually explain what a spell slot is in-universe, in Secrets of Magic, see pic.
>>92819505>it takes 15 minutes per total spell levels to memorise all spellsIn 3.x its one minute per spell level with a minimum of 15 minutes for all spells, so a level 3 wizard needs 15 minutes per day but a level 20 needs nearly 3 hours.
>>92817277>spell pointsOr you could do the Shadowrun thing, where magic spells and rituals are explained as the mage manipulating the energy of the astral plane, which can harm the caster if you channel too much energy(drain). Theoretically you can cast fireballs all day long, but in practice you’re going to exhaust yourself doing that.But of course, D&D will never slaughter its sacred cows.
>>92832581Fuck you and get off my lawn!
>>92817019In Vancian systems you are effectively aligning the synapses in your brain to act as an equivalent to a spell scroll.When you fire the spell it fucks those synapses and unbinds them in that format.It's why a wizard in earlier editions had to set each individual spell slot to a specific spell.
>>92824117newfag
>>92833630D&D mechanics follow the logic of Vancian magic, but not the lore. It's also not accurate to how Vancian magic worked, as holding more than a few spells was considered impossible.
This thread is a fascinating example of how little people actually know about the systems they've played for years. 5e is a decade old at this point and it's safe to assume that most people on /tg/ have read and played some of it, and yet the thread is loaded with people saying "read the book" for something that is not in the book, or proudly declaring something about the rules that is objectively untrue, or paraphrasing something they heard someone else explain once as objective fact for 5e without knowing that it came from an older edition.
>>92827464DDR1, DDR2, DDR2, DDR3, DDR4, DDR5 If you try to run windows 3.11 on a computer with modern memory, do you know what will happen? It will be as if the modern memory was pretty much like the memory from the 90's because that version of windows can't take advantage of it.It would be just like spending a high level slot to cast a low level spell.
>>92817476>There is literally no explanation in the PHB what a spell slot is supposed to be in-world and why it behaves in the exact specific idiotically unnatural way it does, that has nothing at all to do with the human memory. There is no explanation because it cannot be explained, literally nothing in real world works like it. Your shitposts don't change this.This reminded me when I was 19 and spent hours at night debate the D&D slot system on the eric noah forums. Damn I looked so stupid back then.Don't worry little bro, you'll grow out of it eventually/
DnD magic is literally a set of magical mathematical formulas. Even if you have a literally perfect memory, that only means you don't need a spell book, not that you can suddenly cast spontaneously, and you still need to prepare the equation each time before you can cast it due to computational reasons. These are formulas so big and complex that it takes multiple days to even write them down. Just because you know something doesn't mean you understand it, and there are at least a couple feats that alter your understanding more fundamentally to spontaneously cast. Just like there's a feat to allow you to shorthand arcane script faster to scribe quicker.
>>92817019>I don't entirely undertand how magic worksGood, keep it that way. Any over-explained magic system becomes indistinguishable from technology.
>>92835379it's not over-explaining to have some in-universe reason given for why you can't cast fireball every 5 seconds.>Shadowrun: magic is hard, so spamming fireball will drain your life until you KO or kill yourself>Warhammer 40k: magic comes from The Warp, which is where daemons and the chaos gods live, and casting spells gives them a chance to invade your personal space>D&D: umm... uh... SHUT UP THAT'S JUST THE RULESby all means leave the exact minutia of casting a spell to the imagination, but at least define the limits of what magic can do and justify those limits with SOMETHING in-universe.
>>92835066>DnD magic is literally a set of magical mathematical formulas.Point to the page in any book that explains them in that literal way.
>>92836377>at least define the limits of what magic can do and justify those limits with SOMETHING in-universe.That's up for the DM and his setting. Magic is not real, we don't have a real world version of it and that's an advantage because we're not bound to one explanation or underlying rules. It can be whatever we want that fits our fantasy world. Magic systems are better to be as abstract as possible to the point their rules work and are "balanced" enough, and at the same time having enough flexibility for the DM to flesh out its fantasy and decide how the spell-cating characters perceive it and experience it in the game world.Some games have a lot of lore and in-world explanations of what is magic and how the rules translate into the characters' experience of it, but those games are mostly focused around the magic system, like Mage, Ars Magica.D&D and other similar fantasy RPGs are not about mages using magic in a specific fantasy, they are about all sorts of adventurers existing in all sorts of worlds. No reason to lock down the fantasy of the magic system to one type of in-game lore, the same reason so many other elements of D&D are left mostly undefined, or open enough that DMs can just decribe them the way they want, like HPs for example.
The "I start casting the spell in the morning then finish during battle" explanation doesn't make sense.How do I know which spell I'm casting twice? Or up/downcasting?
>>92817019An ossified "muh tradition" that didn't made any sense in the first place, but Gygax was masturbating to Vance's books
>>92833023ACKNOWLEDGE THAT YOU WERE WRONG. NOW.
>>92833683retard
>>92836377No.
>>92838457It's a sacred cow that WotC is afraid to slaughter because if they change it too much, they might piss off too many people and end up with a situation worse than 4e on their hands. But I also think that there's just not enough talent and not enough of a good atmosphere fostering creativity and ingenuity at WotC for them to be able to come up with a better idea and implement it in a good way.
>>92836571No, go fuck yourself, read the material. You have been a pain in the ass this entire thread, and so you can take my word for it or you can go fuck yourself. Your approval is not required in any aspect of this transaction. You are either correct like me, or you are wrong like you.
>>92833732Nice try, still not spoon-feeding you.
>>92838902>>92838942You're flailing because you know you can't. Because you know there is no such text, no such page, no such content in any of the books. You cry about seeking approval while seething that you can't win an internet argument that has an objective answer.
Nothing,It's a mistakenly designed game mechanic
>>92839063SNSFY (still not spoon-feeding you)Don't be such an annoying cunt next time.
>>92839143You came to a thread willingly and now find yourself shitter-shattered because you were asked to provide evidence to a claim you chose to make despite not knowing if it was actually true. You have no one to blame but yourself.
>>92833307>5e doesn't explain spell slots, Ive looked.Not hard enough it seems
>>92839206NTA buuuuuuuuut
>>92839260>>92839420Notice how it unsubtly slips from talking about the fiction (manipulating magic is physically and mentally taxing) into talking about mechanics without any clear explanation where one ends and the other begins? The explanation here is that "magic works this way because that's the rules" not because spell slots and spell levels are a thing in the fiction.
I'm a structural engineer. If you asked me to design you a wooden joint I wouldn't be able to until I read up on it in a book the day before. It's like that with spells.
>>92839438>here's the lore reason>here's how we represent that mechanically>nOt ExPlAiNeD!If you think the explanation is too brief that's fine, but it exists regardless.
>>92820487Pretty much this, abstractions are needed in every game at some point
>>92839687OP asked what a spell slot is, literally. Your "lore reason" is a sentence fragment that doesn't explain what a spell slot is or how they work, why they are divide by level and usage, why "high level" spells are more taxing or if they are taxing because they are high level, what character level is, and so on and so on. It's a tautology. It works that way because that's the way it works. A spell slot is a slot that a spell goes into. Using a 1st level spell in a 9th level slot is as taxing as using a 9th level spell in the same slot, because that's just how it works.
>>92839687It didn't explain. OP's trying to ask, what are spell slots in-story? Do all magic users just feel how many, or know somehow the number of spells they have left they can cast? When a magic users runs out of spell slots, obviously they wouldn't say in-character "I've run out of spell slots", but what would they say exactly? "I've run out of magic"?
>>92839771>>92839785>literally spoon fed>act like there's nothing thereIf you think the explanation is too brief that's fine, but it exists regardless.
>>92839785>but what would they say exactly?The text specifies that you can't cast infinite spells because it's mentally and physically taxing, if you can't think of something based on that then you should probably just accept that your pathological lack of imagination and creativity means role playing games just ain't your thing and move on to stamp collecting or something instead.
>>92839438Why do you need the distinction spelled out for you? Brain damage?
>>92840700>>92840935>what is a spell slot>max is physically and mentally taxingWHAT IS A FUCKING SPELL SLOT THOUGHT YOU PEDANTIC RETARD
>>92817019You know the Spoons System that a lot of people with mental and chronic illnesses use to describe energy? I.e. “I start the day with ten spoons, showering takes one, working takes five,” etc.?It’s probably something like that. A wizard only has the energy/mental capacity to do x amount of spells per day and different spells take different amounts of that energy.
>>92817019Think of it this way: the wizard's mind is a bomber plane, loaded with various armaments. It takes time to stock up small rocks, more to fit conventional bombs, and yet more to load nuclear bombs.Each piece of ammunition is a spell. Even if they're the same kind of ammunition, they're still distinct from each other.
>>92841987That's called stamina.
>>92841987>>92842104those are called Action Points.
>>92841980It's physically and mentally taxing, I just said.
>>92841980Read nigger, it'll tell you.
Dungeons & Dragons is literally a science-fiction setting. You’re inside a fucking computer game. Captcha: TSRST
>>92842450You first, illiterate.
>>92839438>>92836580It was already explained here, but you ignored it because you're just a lousy troll.Good job baiting all the grogs in this has-been of a forum with your shitthread.
>>92839771>OP asked what a spell slot is, literallyNTA but its dependent on the setting and so the players handbooks keeps it vague enough to at least attempt to be setting agnosticThe Forgotten Realms is the primary setting used in 5e for instance and in that setting Magic is the Weave governed by Mystra the Goddess of Magic. The weave is basically the underlining basis of physical reality and casting magic is basically utilizing a non-physics based manipulation of universal interactions Also to cast Arcane Magic properly one must be born with The Gift, basically a certain brain structure that allows one to comprehend the weave better than the average person. This is a dumb comparison but imagine if only 5% of the population could see purple safely and if anyone else tried to se it it would give them a headache.However even with the gift, the weave was not made for mortals and so fucks with you physically. So under this system a Wizard or some such would need to keep a complex series of arcane chants and reagents in mind before use and then execute on the perfectly. Again because magic is so antithetical to the human brain, upon use your mind tries to forget as a form of what is basically trauma response. With this all out of the way, a Spell Slot in the Forgotten Realms is the amount of mental willpower a caster can allocate for the spells they know.As one gets to higher levels they train their mind to endure the rigors of more intense kinds of magic and the ability to do so more often, which is how you able to cast higher level spells, and lower level ones more often.Each Caster channels their power differently (that's spells known) but it all comes down to mental bandwidth which is increased by experience and natural aptitude.I don;t care if its bait, its summer and an underage might stumble across the thread, god forbid, and get some value out of it.
>>92844418>It was already explained hereIt really wasn't, beyond saying it's a 'slot that spells go into'.>>92844832This is a perfectly serviceable explanation and I know it comes from the novels, but I'm going to reiterate the thing that was pointed out in the thread over and over and over: This is not the explanation given in the D&D books. Forgotten Realms is considered 5e's default setting and the only mention of The Weave is "the subtle weave of magic" on page 112 of the PHb.This could very well be the official and canon answer, but in 10 years of 5e, 20 years since 3.5, they have totally neglected to give any description even half as detailed as what you've just written now.
>>92817019slots that spells go in
>>92817476>The only course that makes sense is throwing spell memorization in trash and replacing it with a mana meter.Psionics.
>>92817019>What are spell slots literallyYou pre-cast 99% of the spell into the inside of your brain, leaving it on standby, and then cast the final magic words and gestures to fire it off.>why can you only cast fireball twice a dayYou only have so much space inside your brain/soul/whatever to store those pre-castings of spells.All of the spells you prepared are pre-prepared ammunition. And some monsters' attacks directly target the spells. Like a Laraken.
>>92817148The answer to this question has been omitted from the rulebooks since 3e dropped. We only know at all because it was answered before 3e. He would need to read an AD&D PHB.
>>92817476Prepared Spell Levels a la 3e UA is the most logical version of the take IMO. There's a hard limit on how much spell energy you can hold at once, but you can divide it up almost however you want. I think there should be some maximums on your top level spells, but if you want to prepare three third level spells instead of a ninth level spell, that's reasonable.But I think in principle the concept is sound.Of course, if you want to spend 10 minutes per spell level (pulled from the 2e phb) casting a spell, I'm happy to let you cast a fireball from your books, without preparing it in advance. So for a fireball, that's 30 minutes.
>>92817335If you want to spend every spell slot on fireball, I as GM, am inclined to let you.
>>92817423There's an explanation explains in the AD&D PHBs, and its explained a few times in the novels. Though none of the explanations I've seen gave a good justification for why you have A level 3 slots, B level 4 slots, and C level 5 slots, and instead the description makes it feel like they just have so much space to work with to store their prepared spells. Which is why I like 3e UA Spell Levels as a starting point (which I'm inclined to tweak) as opposed to rigid empty slots, it matches the narrative better.So at this point, I imagine it as a container you can fill with spells as you make them following the directions in your book.But in AD&D, preparing a spell took 10 or 15 minutes per spell level,(depending on edition). It wasn't an auto full refill after you sleep 8h you had to actually sit down and prepare them.Similarly, if you have 30 minutes (using 2e numbers for spell prep time) I'm more than happy to let you cast fireball right from your spell book, so long as you can cast third level spells.
>>92819502The containment general doesn't know anything written before 2014. And that's if they're even read the book for the edition they play.
>>92833340Yeah, speeding that up was a mistake.
>>92823433Loosely. He doesn't run around with 40+ spells prepared.
>>92824367D20 final fantasy is an option if you want that. I haven't tried it
>>92827464There's a variant rule to do exactly that for 3e.
This kinda highlights one of my gripes that has never been addressed with all the WotC D&Ds. They leave only the vaguest, loosest, barely existent hints of there being some kind of setting outside of what is immediately in front of the characters. Mentions of wizard schools and bard colleges. There's Gods with different domains and alignments and divine heroes that serve them, but are there religions? Churches? Does a Paladin have any duties outside of murderhobo-smiting goblins in musty caves? The Druids serve some kind of greater nature spirit that grants them supernatural powers, but is not a God and also not a Warlock-type entity. How the fuck does that work? They have some limits, but why? Who enforces them? Monks apparently come from some kind of sect or temple. I think they mention temples specifically... Why are low level monks just wandering around instead of training? Do they have to return ever? Does a monk have a purpose they are seeking to fulfill? Likewise for the entire background mechanic. Seemingly every character has something important about their background, but functionally it's just an extra feat or proficiency or something, and the rest of the fluff is meaningless. Some of these things are setting dependent, of course, but most aren't even given a glimmer of a hint of how these things would work in a broad, general sense. And I don't think it's because most people actively ignore or avoid such things. I think it's because they haven't been concepts that anyone working at WotC has cared about AT ALL ever since they scooped up the rights in the 90s. The underlying internal logic is such an afterthought and has been for so long that people think D&D is meant to be devoid of these things and they aren't supposed to matter, because in WotC's eyes the only kind of play worth acknowledging is combat and everything else is tertiary in the best of situations, but worth handwaving away otherwise.
>>92832107This complaint applied to basically *every* mechanic in 4th edition. Drove me crazy.>why can't you prepare three first level spells instead of a third level3e spell levels variant casting did this.
>>92832370>game rules>permit>not requiredOh hello 4th edition. We were discussing roleplaying games, not boardgames or wargames.
>>92832975>why can't Barbarians get angry more than a set number of times per day, or why Paladins can't hate you for being a heretic more times per day, or why a druid can't be their fursona more times per day.All excellent questions deserving of answers.Its totally reasonable to make several of them run on a shared stamina system if you can't cone up with a good reason they should have individually tracked uses.
>>92844832>all this stuff that runs very different from the 2ePHB or what I read on the FR wiki.Can you point me at your sources? I've been reading FR novels for 25 years and running d& d for almost as long as this is a new explanation for me.Specifically the "even with the gift" paragraph and spells being ejected from your brain as a trauma response.
>>92853222Donut cores and forgotten rums.
>>92853282I think if there's a real answer it's something like>Stamina points aren't a sacred cow brand-identity mechanic>if we make every class use stamina or MP instead of slots/per day/per encounter/per short rest that means we have to change casters to>changing all these things will disrupt the brand identity and might make the fans mad>more importantly disrupting the brand identity is too risky and the executives will ask why we want to change something that already works and already makes moneyHalf fear, half corporate complacency.
>>92853222I honestly think this is one of the reasons why the Forgotten Realms retained enough popularity to become the primary setting. Everything in it is explained in some book or other it and kept doing that even after the transition to 3E when all the other detail on that level was abandoned. Yeah its full of op NPCs but what other post-3e setting is not only wiling to give you info about the gods, clergy, magic, and a bounty of cultures, but also naga breeding habits and the exact reagents needed to make magic ink. The only one I can think of that comes close after Wizards took over is Eberon and that's because it was kept deliberately simple in many aspects and was built from the ground up with 3e mechanics in mind. And that only lasted for 3e itself. Meanwhile I can go and get a semi-official 5e compatible guidebook to modern Thay thanks to Ed Grenwood's worldbuilding autism.
>>92842796I did, that's how I know you refuse to read it. Either that, or your comprehension is so pathetic you read it and still don't understand.
>>92853282>>92853504This entire thread all along was to try and start poisoning the well about spell slots so people would be more receptive to Mana based systems, wasn't it.Because I have seen this type of argument with this exact type of wording pop up a couple of times across multiple threads since summer break started.
>>92853504They just reboot the franchise, and in '08 they nuked forgotten realms and time skipped a century to get rid of most of what people liked. Clearly they're not *that* afraid of breaking the cash cows.That said, I think you could switch every resource pool to one that makes more sense in-character and still keep some variety of spell slots that makes sense in-character.I think its all corporate laziness. But I won't be buying 5eV2.no confidence in the brand or it's remaining developers.
>>92846274>It really wasn't>"manipulating the fabric of magic and channeling it's energy into even a single spell is taxing, and higher level spells are even more so. Thus, every spellcasting class's description includes a table showing how many spell slots of each level a character can use"If you need more than that, you're a fucking retard.
>>92853615Dunno about the second poster you linked, but I prefer preparing spell slots to mana, and d& D's magic is one of the main reasons I'm not just using GURPS for all my fantasy games so... No?
>>928536254E not being afraid of killing sacred cows isn't the same thing as D&D not being afraid of killing sacred cows.
>>92853650They literally just rebooted the whole fucking franchise before launching their new gacha edition. Vecna destroys the multiverse.
>>92853640NTA, but it doesn't explain why all wizards prepare slots according to that specific bizarre progression, and why you can't prepare them differently.(And again, mana is boring).
>>92817019>Why can you physically only be hit a certain number of times per day? Makes me feel less like a fighter
>>92853222You're supposed to use your own setting, nogames-kun
>>92853684Spell slots are boring.
Everyone else in this thread is wrongSpell Slots are just describing your magical asshole getting stretched by knowledge. You can put things up it, but you need to get used with the current type of spells before you move onto bigger things. You can also shove other magical stuff up your wizard sleeve, but you have to find it first. The more complex the spell, the more you gotta stretch the bag of holding first. You can have a bunch of smaller things, but more impressive stuff needs it's own spot
>>92853615>This entire thread all along was to try and start poisoning the well about spell slots so people would be more receptive to Mana based systemsYou think someone is trying to brainwash naive D&D players into hating the beloved traditional vancian casting systems to they can be led astray into using a variant mechanic that's been in 3.5 and 5e?
>>92853640It's vague to the point of being a statement that it is simply and in-game extension of the game designer's adherence to a legacy mechanic. Nothing more. It's also not an answer to any of the questions asked and contradictory to what many of the people claimed the book explicitly describes.
>>92853748Would really be nice if the book went and offered something slightly less vague to build off of then, instead of expecting every DM to pull something out of their ass to explain the poorly defined built-in setting implications they chose to foist on everyone, like D&D is just some generic toolbox system.
>>92817019Spell slots in the traditional Vancian sense represents a part of your mind being faceted to hold immensely complicated higher-dimensional mathematical formulae, the completion of which can alter reality or affect other minds in tangible ways. You don't learn these in any conventional sense, and your spellbook is a compilation of notes concerning the ritualized steps involved.>Makes me feel less like a wizardOnly because you're actually a retarded fucking idiot.>>92817298I haven't read all of Dying Earth, but it is not implied to require "a tremendous amount of mental fortitude and concentration", at least not continuously, and one of the the main characters in one of the first books seems to pick out a few (I want to say three-ish) spells fairly casually. While it does require intelligence, study, jealously hoarded knowledge, and some very specialized training, it doesn't seem to require any kind of constant active concentration, which is pretty much in line with how it works in especially early D&D, especially if we allow some leeway in interpreting "reality" into actionable mechanics.>>92817148To be fair, I wouldn't want to read 5e Drags & Dogshit either.
>>92817335>Why can I only sing it twice in a day?Because you're literally too stupid to fit more of them into your mindscape.
>>92817626Something I really fucking hate about D&D is that at some point (3e onward, worse with every publication since then), they stopped caring and/or knowing about the underlying logic of the mechanics from a position of verisimilitude, making the decision as to how things like spells are used completely arbitrary. Spontaneous? Vancian? Roll a dince and see what we use for this class!In my own homebrew, the mechanical division between magic is hard, outside of some explicit exceptions. Arcane uses Vancian, representative of mathemagical rituals that take up literal space in the mindscape, and as your power grows the size of your memory castle dles too. Divine is spontaneous, representative of individual prayers exactlingly memorized and your ability to channel divine power through your soul. Psionics uses points and techniques learned as you expend your own ki or inner power to impose your will directly onto the world.They're all distinct in multiple ways, both narratively and mechanically, and it's fucking trivial.
>>92853900NTA but to summarize all the classesWizard, Bard, Sorcerer, Artificer, and most of the subtypes of Martials that use magic otherwise and doing the spell-in-brain mental stamina thing for all their magic.Cleric, Paladin, and Warlock all have to pick the magic they can wield per day and then it is given to them by a higher (or lower, or universal conviction) power based upon the amount they can reasonably use before harming themselves in the process.Technically their power sources can give them more power than they can safely handle but that can possibility kill the one using the power.Druids and Rangers are doing the same memorization thing as The First grouping but get their power in the same way as the Second but from nature itself.All the purely martial based skills are a gamification of stamina usage.
>>92820487Do you just not understand what abstractions are, or are you just deeply autistic?
>>92854013I can only assume that you responded to the wrong post by accident.
>>92853625I think the players soundly rejecting 4e and propelling Pathfinder to the moon is why they're afraid of killing sacred cows. They tried, and 4e is the most short-lived edition to date.
>>92853810>Would really be nice if the book went and offered something slightly less vague to build off of then, instead of expecting every DM to pull something out of their ass to explain the poorly defined built-in setting implications they chose to foist on everyone, like D&D is just some generic toolbox system.This is my feeling about d&d in general. It's terrible as a generic toolkit system and I only use it for FR and Spelljammer and Ravenloft. If I want generic fantasy, I reach for GURPS.
>>92854013Depends on the setting.
>>92854008I can never get behind psionics being its own thing, but that's my own autism at work.Anyway, the more I think about it, it has always made sense to me that something like power points for doing magic like effects naturally while spells are artificial and either require you to do magic algebra or ask a divine being to do it for you through you.
>>92817019If your ideal of wizards are X-men, I mean whatever Megumin wants to be then whatever, different people, different tastes I guess. What's the point of the thread?>>92817277> spell slots have never, ever, ever made any sense and should have been replaced with spell points back in 1977 at the latest.So... how exactly spell slots do make less sense than spell points. Because spell points represent some continuous energy resource? Is it somehow more "realistic"? I honestly want to understand.I only read the first book of Dying Earth, so I don't know if the spells are alive in the setting, but in Disc World the spells are Vancian in the sense that they occupy place in your brain, and also are some sort of living beings. If i remember correctly it was a point in some novel that wizards make magic too scientific. However the "science" of magic is so weird and fucked up, that saying it isn't "magical", or that wizards don't feel like wizards is beyond me.The point being, Vancian magic can make sense, and even be "magical" despite not having mana=magical fart energy
>>92853666 If I had a nickel for every time they moved to a new edition by utilizing Vecna, I would have two nickels, which isn’t a lot but it’s weird it happened twice.
>>92855461>Is it somehow more "realistic"?Obviously, yes, and it's more intuitive because it's how literally everything works. You want to move? You spend calories (energy), and if you want to move faster/harder, you spend more. You've got a flashlight? Using it drains the battery, the brighter the faster. You want to drive a car? It burns fuel; the faster you want to go, the more energy it takes, and the more fuel it burns. You want a bullet to hit harder? Guess what? You want to supply it more energy, faster. You want a more powerful explosive? You should use a substance with more energy. Your body stores extra energy to burn in the form of fat. Even intelligence works by burning energy. The human brain consumes a ridiculous proportion (~20%) of your daily calories. Spell points are inherently sensible because they work like everything in human experience works.
>>92854688I didn't use to like it, but I've come around to it, especially after I decided to divvy things up in a clear manner like this. In my system/setting; • Arcane magic is defined by manipulating the existing world independently from yourself. You're just tugging at the underlying strings of reality in just the right way, and it is very much the old "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" in that this is a root component of reality that can be exploited in various ways, whether by arcane formulae or objects and items of power. • Divine channelling concerns beseeching other entities, usually in some way or form extraplanar ones, to perform miracles for you, using you as a conduit. The priest is not performing miracles himself and he is casting no spells, but he is acting as a conduit for an otherwordly force. As his "soul" becomes stronger and this connection becomes stronger, the divine actor can channel more "oomph" through the conduit, which is why more powerful "spells" become available, or rather, how more powerful "prayers" become viable. A divine channeler that punches above his weight class in terms of miracles can be burned out like a husk, which is a genuine risk for more overzealous worshipers and chaotic or evil deities.• Psionic power is the cultivation of the mind, soul, and body for the purpose of effecting the material world directly with the power of the self, rather than manipulating pre-existing conditions or having divine entities act through you. If arcane magic is tugging at the strings of reality, a wizard would call this hitting things with a hammer, beating reality into submission, regardless of the fact that this can obviously be used in a subtle fashion, or the amount of effort that goes into doing this.
>>92855561Btw there are some variants to these, both thematically/conceptually and mechanically floating around. Like dwarven rune magic essentially being an externalized form of arcane magic, or sorcerers using a spontaneous magic system as a mechanically coherent representation of hereditary magical abilities instead of a needlessly complex weave of spell-like abilities. But that's the gist of it.
>>92855536>Obviously, yesAre you autistic or retarded? Only two options.>muh energy equivalenceYou're not just expending some kind of nebulous energy, you're making bullets and putting them into your gun. By analogy, you're arguing that guns and different kinds of engineering solutions and types of ammunition doesn't make sense, because when you walk you burn calories.
>>92823433I miss my old group, and the days when any of us could bring up older fantasy literature and films born and we still all got the references.Now anyone I find to play with only seem to understand references in terms of video games and cartoons and these are lost on me.It's probably past time to let go.
>>92856926If they've never read, let alone heard of those old books, why would you expect them to get any references to them?
>>92855921>You're not just expending some kind of nebulous energyLiterally described as "physically and mentally taxing" and spells slots only recover with rest. Even though it's not explained with any deeper detail, you can infer there is some expenditure of energy. The idea that a wizard of sufficient experience can gradually learn to prepare and cast more spells can be understood as building some form of mental stamina and toughness to endure the strain of using more spells.
>>92817019i am a wizard in real life and we work by spell slots. It is actually very realistic
>>92857035I think he's saying he prefers gaming with people he shares a common cultural / media understanding with (IE, his own age, since accessible media changes so fast). Makes sense to me.
>>92857401>spells slots only recover with restNo they don't. They are recovered as part of a rest period, but not because you're resting, although rest is a necessary part of it, same as any strenuous activity, you simpering retard. The operative word here is "just", ESLanon. "You're not just". As in it not being the only thing. There's implicitly and explicitly more to it than the mere expenditure of some force. This idea that expenditure of "mana" is the only thing that somehow "makes sense" falls apart even at a glance, because there are countless activities and things done in regards to equally countless things that aren't just about expending some kind of nebulous energy meter.
>>92858041>spell slots aren't recovered with rest>they're recovered while resting>they aren't recovered because you're resting>but resting is necessary to recover themVery coherent post. You're very smart..
>>92817476The PHB is a rule book not a campaign setting dumbass
>>92830460It does in Forgotten RealmsExplaining what spell slots are in terms of lore isn’t the responsibility of the PHB it’s the responsibility of the campaign setting
>>92832107It is conceptually simpler but magic does not exist so your intuition about it is faulty
>>92858883If you don't understand the difference between>X restores Yand>X is part of restoring Ythen >>92855921 was wrong and you're actually not autistic or retarded, but both.
>>92858956>>92859067>Explaining what spell slots are in terms of lore isn’t the responsibility of the PHB it’s the responsibility of the campaign settingNot when it forms the thematic and conceptual foundation for the mechanics in question. Like it or not, virtually any system comes with setting assumptions when it comes to the mechanical representation of said assumptions.
>>92859129D&D is the granddaddy that is bigger than any one setting
>>92858883NTA, but it was explained more clearly in previous editions.Your *empty* slots were refilled with rests. Then it took time (15, then 10, then 1) minute per spell level to prepare a spell inside each of those slots. But you could not recover them if denied access to rest.(5e a shit. Worse game all around)
>>92859230Nta, but the assumptions of D&D's design make it basically useless for any setting that wasn't designed around those assumptions. Just look at how different d20 Conan is from 3e. First thing they did was toss all the magic in the bin and start over. (There are some other big changes that increase the lethality, and armour works more like armor, rather than all-or-nothing defense.)
>>92859129Yes and the mechanical assumptions of D&D as a system flows out into the various setting created for it. Basically the lineage on how magic works is that in the early days the main setting was Greyhawk which was developed intertwined with the OG sets of rules. Later settings were made with those rules in mind and added their own flavor to the existing mechanical basis.The vast majority of D&D settings came out during 2e and so when it came to magic the system came first then the settings were made around those.Eberon was than made for 3e with 3e mechanics in mind and built its world around those mechanics. That why its a magitech setting because 3e had a shitton of magical items and artifice already and so they built a setting around what was offered.5e was made as a hail mary to keep the D&D brand from turning into just a board game and IP farm and just shoved shit in for cultural resonance as a greatest hits album lacking context which got lucky and blew up.Then while they were releasing various books to try and flesh out the content the Zac S incident happened and Jeremy Crawford became team head circa 2018. And Jeremy hates lore and actively wants to turn D&D into a toolbox system despite it never actually being that, which is where a lot of confusion from modern 5e only players comes from.The Forgotten Realms is unique in this process where unlike most other settings that got attention during their release edition and then get scraps afterwards. The Creator thanks to obsessive autism and a agreement that whatever he writes is cannon unless Wizards explicitly supersedes it in published material. has via The Magic God fucking with things over time has been able to keep the settings lore contestant with the changes in edition.
>>92860002FR started as unpublished short fiction in '67. The standard spell slots, to hear Greenwood tell it, is only one of many types of magic in the setting, but the game companies (TSR then WotC) were determined to give little focus to the other types.Spellfire, Rune Magic, and a couple others showed up in 3e though.
>>92817277What are spell points literally?
>>92820487Yes, I have a homebrew spy class and he gets all of his gadgets by his handler airdropping him a package of stuff every day
>>92817019They’re an abstraction that lets you fit a basic ruleset into multiple settings that have different magic systems.
>>92858956Explain why every race and class and background is full of setting information and facts about those various character options then.
>>92860473A while back I made a mage character (in GURPS where its easy to make up a class, based on the class that talks to ghosts (shaman I think) and turns it into a mage who helps Kami and Fey, and they reward him with weekly top ups of an assortment of *random* consumable spell tokens each week. (But he got minor occasional side jobs he had to do to assist them to help keep up his fey/Kamigawa reputation). In addition to that he had a couple specific at-will / constant magic abilities (like the ability to see ethereal & incorporeal creatures & magic auras, and could cast some slow ritual spells (that took hours), so long as he had them in a spellbook.Having he mechanics justified in character is intrinsically rewarding.
>>92817019Why can Megumin physically only cast Explosion once a day? Makes her feel less like a wizard.
The idea of spell slots come from Jack Vance's novels and they are a measurement of how many spells you can effectively keep in short-term memory. Think of them like single-use scrolls you commit to memory rather than transcribing onto paper.Every other D&D class just used the same system, but it was developed for the lore of Wizards. There isn't really a reason Divine casters should use them.
>>92857401Does anybody knows how many moving goalposts are in this discussion?>>92855536>Obviously, yesAs I hate to use argumentum ad drocones... magic is magic... you fucking can and sometimes should violate laws of physics, as long as laws of magic are not broken. Why? Because magic. There were many flavors of magic in history and different cultures, look at them. Look at pseudoscience today, it's madness. Common sense goes out the window.> Spell points are inherently sensible because they work like everything in human experience works.X is more sensible than Y as a choice for magic because X is more mundane/common/natural (and uninsipired btw) let's forget that depending on setting magic is "unnatural" or "beyond comprehension".>because it's how literally everything worksSo you write passionately about energy as we know it (BTW modern concept of energy is relatively new), selling modern science as intuitive experience... I don't actually know what did you try to achieve, nevertheless there is a problem.That's not how everything works!Fucking pic related for example.An orbital of an atom can only be occupied by two electrons max, those two must have opposite spin. In free atoms there are several energy levels of electrons, each having several orbitals (or one in case of the lowest energy level).Those energy levels are discrete, meaning there is no such thing as an electron with energy between 1st and 2nd level.And each level can be occupied by descrete (countable) and restricted number of electronsWhat else has descrete levels and restricted, countable places occupied by something?SPELL SLOTS! >inb4 nuclear+quantum physics is not common experienceQuantum physics are fundamental for how chemistry works, the properties of materials, why some materials have colors or are transparent, there was a hypothesis I think that sense of smell works thanks to quantum tunneling.
>>92862744>Does anybody knows how many moving goalposts are in this discussion?You tell us, considering you just grabbed another set of goalposts yourself.
>>92853684Yup, you're a retard. Only a genuine, actual retard would need it explained that "spells are taxing" and "you get more spell slots as you level" means "YOU GET BETTER AT HANDLIMNG THE STRAIN OF SPELLCASTING AS YOU LEVEL." Fucking duh. Does your tard handler know you're online? That is baby's first intuitive leap. >why you can't prepare them differentlyBecause wizards prepare spells like wizards. For the love of God, get smarter.>>92853787>It's vagueHey look another retard. Se above, dingus.
>>92863275>Strains of spellcasting are completely unrelated to each otherNope. Doesn't make sense. Admit it's a gameplay conceit alone or fuck off.
>>92863275>"it makes perfect and obvious in-setting sense that spells have to be slotted in a very particular order even though the reason why is never explained anywhere."It absolutely does not. It's an unexplained an unjustified gameplay conceit and you know it; you obtuse, lying sophistic shitstain. Go fuck a cheese grater.
>>92835066It actually isn't mathematical in nature because Elminster, the greatest wizard in FR, is canonically bad at math.
>>92863353>Doesn't make senseIt doesn't make sense to you, because you're stupid.>>92863741>unexplainedOnly a retard would NEED more explanation. Jesus Christ, imagine 5th edition D&D being too smart for you. Holy shit.
>>92864577It doesn't make sense because it literally doesn't make sense.
>>92864600It does make sense, you're just a retard.
>>92864608No it doesn't. If spells are taxing they need to work from an overall pool. They don't do that, so they're not taxing.
>>92817019They don't actually exist. D&D novels always use mana or stamina instead.
>>92864577>NeedNice try, sophist.This thread fundamentally is about preferences, not needs.I *could* play 4e, or FATE again, where the mechanics have next to nothing to do with the fiction. But I prefer GURPS and Rolemaster and Mythras, and Hârnmaster is on my bucket list, because I prefer being able to play / run a game where the in character decision making is more aligned with the out of character decision making. It makes the game more fun to have the decision making be on a more in character level and reduce the degree to which the mechanics are detached from the fiction. To achieve that, yeah, you want to minimize unexplained game mechanics that exist as nothing but game mechanics. Explaining them better, or rewriting them to something that is explained.>5e is too smart for you, so you play games with more math, more complex rules, and more cross referencing to remember!That's just a lack of reading comprehension (or perhaps more dishonest word twisting) on your part, Monsieur Sophiste.>inb4 GURPS Luck AdvantageFor this play style preference, you would not include it, just like you don't include SciFi stuff in your ancient Rome game. GURPS (unlike d&d) is a toolkit, with /almost/ all the parts you could want for whatever genre of game you want to run. (There's some stuff it's not great at).
>>92864626They do not. Often they don't cover spell prep (probably because its uninteresting), but I've read at least a couple where "I only prepared that spell once, I can't cast it again" and "I didn't prepare that spell" came up. So spell preparation is mentioned in the novels, if not the very specific mix of spell levels that all mages must follow because (unexplained reasons).A good chunk of why the Spell Levels variant is interesting to me (haven't used it yet, it seems to still have some issues), is because the novels never mention anything about how the slots have to be divided up (I haven't read *every* FR novel, but more than half. There are a lot of them). Thus, keeping spell prep, but allowing players to be a bit more personal in how much of what to prep, seems fine.
>>92817232>>92817294>>92817316What exactly are these better games?
>>92864704Maybe you shouldn't have included the third post in your reply, retard.
>>92864623Physical taxation and magical taxation are two different things because magical taxation, in the case of arcane magic is more akin to having a radioactive thought in your head. Unlocking more slots and gaining access to higher tier ones means that your brain is more able to endure more and more varied types of radioactive thoughts than it it to doing crosfit for overall body strengthening, because your only able to translate that into holding more complex spell and having more of them in your head.Or in other words its warping your brain to make more space for spells that would damage it otherwise but the spells themselves still need to have proper containers of various shapes and sizes in your brain.>>92864668As stated earlier on here >>92860002There are lore friendly description of magic... In the editions the setting originated in. Anyone who want to defend 5e on this basis is talking out their ass but ti does exist if you go looking for it.
>>92817019>Why can you physically only cast a fireball twice a day?Why would you only be able to cast fireball twice a day?Are you a level 5 light cleric?Wizards have arcane recovery and sorcerers can convert sorcery points to spell slots.Plus full casters over level 5 get more spell slots anyway unless they're warlocks who never had proper slots
>>92864714That's the dumbest fucking thing I've ever heard.
>>92864704NTA, but the third post listed three.Ars Magica is a game where you play as wizards in a semi historical setting, running a mages guild.>On my bucket list.Mage the ascension / mage the awakening are white wolf games about playing wizards.>Played it, didn't like it.And harry potter has a fan game.>Haven't played Harry Potter.Sorcery Revised, I liked better than Mage. More fun magic system IMO.CJ Carella's Witchcraft was a fun 1990s occult TTRPG though.The Buffy / Angel RPG was kind of neat and matched the flavour of the two shows. The Scoobies spending xp to do stuff makes those players fall further behind though, that mechanic needs replacing with something that auto-refills. Its also handled in a very meta currency way so if you want in character decision making, it's not that.GURPS has several magic systems (none I especially like, but other people do. Sorcery is the closest to what I would consider good).3e is a better d&d than 5th, and there are a fuck ton of variant magic systems available for it if you don't like slot-casting. Still lots of janky out of character mechanics and bizarre individually tracked x/day powers though.I kind of want to try the Hellboy RPG (2003), but its built out of GURPS, so it shouldn't be wildly different from what I'm familiar with.
>>92864745You because you don't like the answer doesn't make it bad it just means you have different taste.
>>92864714>There are lore friendly description of magic... In the editions the setting originated in. Anyone who want to defend 5e on this basis is talking out their ass but ti does exist if you go looking for it.Sure. Its possible somewhere explains why the very specific slot progressions too (which are different by edition, too). But I haven't seen it if so. I don't think 3 or 5 justified them. And I wasn't one of the anons talking about 5e (fuck 5e), I was talking about lots of 3.0 and 3.5, and a little bit of 2e, and I've skimmed the 1e PHB/DMG. But, I admit I haven't read every AD&D source.I can appreciate wanting the d&d game to be better than it is, as someone who likes the novels. It's not like I can just buy Forgotten Realms (Powered by GURPS), with novel-accurate magic and magic items.But if you aren't playing it for Faerûn? Maybe consider other fantasy games. And if you are, don't use 5e.
>>92864770*Just because you don't like the answerIts late where I am.
>>92864772That's fair, although I do think its fine to make your own setting using the rules if it fits your prerogative. But I also don;t like people who try and shove everything into D&D.
>>92864783Sure.If you want to make your own setting to run with d&d and you're fine working with what exits for it mechanically go ahead. But if you want a gritty s&s game that's not d&d. *maybe* d20 Conan is your closest bet to d&d. If you want something similar to d&d with a different magic system, look at 3e as it has a ton of them.If you want the mechanics of d&d to better match the novels or be more in-character, that's a big houserules-overhaul, and you'll be better off starting with 2e or 3e than 5e IMO (depending on your other priorities).
>>92863216All of them were already in the discussion, although >>92857401 didn't move the goalpost either
>>92864623>If spells are taxing they need to work from an overall poolThat is ONE method of abstraction, but it's not the ONLY way. You would know this, if you weren't retarded.>If a game doesn't do things the way I want the game is wrong!Literal autist.
>>92864668>This thread fundamentally is about preferences, not needs.No, it's a guy who was too stupid to wrap his brain around 5e, and he's either been doubling down on stupid (and attracting other retards) or he saw his fuckup and is acting like the game is wrong and explanations don't exist, because the opposite is admitting he's too stupid for 5e.
>>92823104Based me.
>>92865171The explanations are bullshit working backwards from a gameplay position, no different from AEDU, except AEDU actually made its game better.
Wow she is literally me
>>92865316Maybe you should go back and read those booksAlignment comes from Three Hearts Three LionsSpell slots come from Dying EarthRaces come from Lord of the RingsYes, D&D is just a grab bag of shit from fantasy novels that were popular in the 70s and 80s
>>92865316It's fine if you don't LIKE how it works and how it's explained. But it's still explained regardless, and in a perfectly adequate way.>AEDU actually made its game betterNo game is made better by making every class mechanically identical. Sorry, you're still a retard.
>>92865316AEDU improved nothing. But I can appreciate that if you want mechanics that make sense in-character, 5e's spell slots are not explained in that way, and you need to go back to AD&D books before you get a somewhat decent explanation. That's because 5e's a shit game.
It's 5e spell slots that don't make any sense. They're not Vancian, they're not anything, you can just nonsensically cast different spells of the same level a set number of times that levels with you. The rest of the spell fluff doesn't work with it.
>>92865316>The explanations are bullshit working backwards from a gameplay positionThey're literally not, you absolute buffoon. Rules may have gone increasingly to shit due to later writers not understanding the underlying logic of the things they were working with, but the original motivations absolutely stemmed from an intent to mechanically represent concepts coming from classic works of fantasy literature on the tabletop. It is literally the opposite of working backwards from a gameplay position.
>>92864506No, it is mathematical in nature, but you don't need to understand the math. This is actually covered in the Dying Earth itself, where mathematics is considered an arcane science. The preparation of spells is ritualized precisely because it involves reality-bending higher mathematics. In this, vancian spellcasters of the D&D tradition has more in common with WH40k tech-priests than they don't; they don't need to understand how to make a toaster, they just need to practice the rite of bread.
>>92864623>If spells are taxing they need to work from an overall pool.No they don't.>If guns require bullets they need to work from an overall gunpowder reserve.This is how retarded you sound to people that aren't autistic.
>>92869804That's very interesting. Is there a Vance story that explains how you practice the rite of bread without understanding toaster manufacture? I've read a couple but they didn't really go into that part.
>>92868654>It's 5e spell slots that don't make any sense. They're not VancianThis is important to remember. 5e does not have Vancian casting, which is yet another reason it is dogshit.
>>92869824Unfortunately; no.
In my homebrew we don't have spell slots. You just have pure luck. You are still capped by level when it comes to spells, but now you have to roll to both do it and not fail. Stronger spells require riskier throws.
>>92869877>vancian spellcasting goodlol you’re a dolt
>>92824381by SW, do ye mean Star Wars or Sword World?Just curious.As Sword World's whole magic thing is that it uses MP as a resource, and whatever level of magic based class you have is what you have available.And yet one magic class uses a GUN.
>>92869917>doesn't understand vancianFiltered retard.
>>92870182>paizo player
>>92869921Gook shit is irrelevant
>>92817019D&D fucked up the flavor from what I've heard. Originally in Dying Earth wizards basically released demons from their mind. The "fireball" was actually an entity.
>>92870212Wrong.
>>92870328Why don’t you just read the books niglet
>>92870328This is not true.>from what I've heardTry reading. The books are freely available.
>>92870413>>92870420Ok, then feel free to explain how it actually worked. Because the demon thing is what I heard multiple times.
>>92870441It has been explained multiple times in this thread alone. Read, nigga. Read!
>>92870461One anon mentioned the spells being "alive".
>>92870505READ THE FUCKING BOOKS
>>92870328The big difference between Dying Earth and D&D is that in D&D spells are more like cognitohazards.
>>92869921Savage Wokes.
>>92870266It's not even Korean ye dang lug.I wanted to know if the lug ment either Star Wars or Sword World, was that all I had to ask?
>>92871193Finally, some clarification.
>>92839260It doesn't explain why a spellcaster can only cast a certain number of each level of spell. Why can't a wizard spend a higher level spell slot to cast multiple lower level spells or vice versa? Why can only sorcerers do that? No, sorcerers having a more intuitive grasp of magic isn't good enough as an explanation. Why does it have to be discrete "slots" or "grooves" in the first place?>casting spells is physically and mentally taxingIf this were true, spellcasters should start to suffer levels of exhaustion or a similar game effect when they try to push their limits. But this isn't reflected in the rules at all. A spellcaster can burn all their spell slots and still be as physically and mentally fit as they were before casting any spells.
>>92871259Other ones I've noticed people getting confused over are DFRPG - is the DF Dresden Files or Dungeon Fantasy; and "Legend". On this website people usually mean the half finished d20 game for some reason, and outside this website, people seem to mean the d100 RPG.
>>92870505In Disc World by Terry Pratchett, which came after Dying Earth and d&d
>>92871507>If this were true, spellcasters should start to suffer levels of exhaustion or a similar game effect when they try to push their limits.You misinterpret the nature of the tax.>No, sorcerers having a more intuitive grasp of magic isn't good enough as an explanation.It totally is though.Someone posted electron shells earlier, and that's sort-of-completely-unrelated, but it also perfectly explains everything, spell levels are an emergent phenomenon resulting from how magic organizes itself and that's really all there is too it. You can have fun making up the aetherbabble-details but that certainly isn't necessary to play the game, all you really need to understand is that magic organizes itself into spell levels. My main beef is that the details of D&D spellcasting are rarely expressed in D&D fiction, despite the fact that it's supposed to be in-world knowledge based on the provable and reproduceable physics of spellcasting, it's like anyone writing a story in Faerun always hedges their bets incase the next edition switches to MP. But that's silly, because Faerun has a tradition of staging catastrophic in-world events to explain edition changes, D&D authors are simply pussies who can't commit to their chosen premise.
I like the way people keep coming up with their own reasons they think D&D's bastardized vancian system makes sense, but none of them are supported by the system itself, because WotC doesn't have a reason for why it works the way it does that isn't directly explained by wanting to repeat what they did for 3.5 since that made the most people happy.
what about spell sluts instead
>>92876990With aren’t responsible for it, Gary was a big fan of Jack Vance
>>92875255It’s retarded to think Faerun is the default setting or has anything to do with the shaping of D&Ds core mechanics, it came out a decade after the game existed and was based on some pervert nobodies personal campaignIt’s just one of many settings that rise and fall in popularityWhen you think of D&D, you should be thinking of more than 3e and 5e. The default setting for 3e was Greyhawk
>>92877439Gary was trying to emulate Vance. Everyone after Gary was trying to emulate what they assumed D&D is supposed to be, which oddly always seems to be be emulating 3.5 in various ways.
>>92817019>Why can you physically only cast a fireball twice a day?I don't know, lack of mana?
>>92877596You’ve never played anything prior to 3e
>>92839687It's so brief, in fact, that it doesn't actually explain the thing the OP was looking for at all.
>>92870505>One anon mentioned the spells being "alive".Yes, and? I don't give a shit.Again, read nigga, fucking read!
>>92817019It's just an arbitrary measure of how much power the wizard can channel each dayThe problem was that with any system which used an MP system just encouraged only using your highest level spell, which for whatever reason at the time they didn't want, so they made it granular. I guess it means that there's more strategy in selecting your spells. It's just a design choice, at the end of the day.
>>92877938That wasn’t a problem, the design choices predate fantasy video games
>>92877629Neither has anyone working at WotC. That's the point.
Vancian magic is the JavaScript of magic systems
>>92875255Ironically there is one spell in 5e that does this, Wish.>The stress of casting this spell to produce any effect other than duplicating another spell weakens you. After enduring that stress, each time you cast a spell until you finish a long rest, you take 1d10 necrotic damage per level of that spell. This damage can’t be reduced or prevented in any way. In addition, your Strength drops to 3, if it isn’t 3 or lower already, for 2d4 days. For each of those days that you spend resting and doing nothing more than light activity, your remaining recovery time decreases by 2 days. Finally, there is a 33 percent chance that you are unable to cast wish ever again if you suffer this stress.
>>92879422This sort of thing should be more common. Emptying spell slots causing fatigue. Taking damage from casting big spells. Consequences for trying to force the 15 minute adventuring day. I'd still like to see Martials improved, but a meaningful cost for overusing magic is much more coherent and internally consistent.
This thread proves that dungeons & dragons is closer to beep boop robotic science fiction than fantasy proper
>>92882082I mean, it IS a game.
>>92882082In what way? Ignoring that the vast majority of D&D players are NPCs, nothing in the thread has really discussed science-fiction.
>>92880270It wont be for existing systems because its cumbersome to track consequences for each individual casting of a single spell.
>>92861295Because she's an edgy idiot who thinks all her problems can be solved with Explosion, and that it's got to be the highest level of that spell. It's her hammer, and no matter how better she gets at magic, she's going to put all her abilities into making the biggest explosion ever. By this point, she could probably cast two (or more) smaller explosion spells, or even break down Explosion into variants of it, but that concept just won't enter her tiny little head.
>>92886081It's already cumbersome tracking what spells do in the first place. I fail to see how adding conditional consequences would make it any worse
It's based on the jack vance system.Magic is fucking complicated and spells are like a constantly changing encryption puzzle that updates as you solve it.So a wizard has to spend time now memorizing and preparing an instance of how the spell works right now, in order to use it, and he only has enough mental capacity for a limited number of these. Once he releases the spell, the same formula doesn't work again so he has to go through the process of setting it up again since even the same spell requires a different preparation a second time.
>>92887212Read the thread before replying next time.
>>92887676eat my ass
>>92887212This is an explanation of magic in the Dying Earth books, but this is not why magic works the way it does in any D&D book published in the last 20+ years. It's quite literally not explained at all.
>>92888204suck a dick fag
>>92817277Spell slots make sense for game balancing rules. I say this as someone who's made use of spell points, a caster using points is far more powerful than a caster who can't just use a whole ton of high level spells.
>>92888228Stop propositioning other men on strange websites.
>>92888280They're not, though. Psions and spell point Wizards were worse than spell slot Wizards in 3.5.
>>92817019Ludicrously big exe files stored in a limited space, these selfdestruct once executed regardless of results to make way for the next one.
>>92877794Yes, it's brief. And if you need more explanation than what the book has, YOU are the problem. YOU are lacking in basic reasoning skills, and probably couldn't spell extrapolation, must less actually do it.
>>92871507>Why can't a wizardBecause that's not how wizards use magic. It's that simple.
>>92892830That's not an answer.
