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>EXP
What happened to the stat growth from the last game?
Kinda disappointed they regressed the mechanics for the sequel.
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who gives a shit
FFVIII is the only FF worth playing and discussing, maybe you should make threads about that game instead
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>>10908667
I'll do that when I get to it after the next four.
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>muh mechanics
I'll never understand the point of over-analyzing JRPGs instead of just playing them.
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>>10908663
I heard the game was considered too complex, it was made by the man who would later make the romancing saga games. They went back to the class based system only that this time you can swap jobs by spending some job exp. To beat some dungeons you are now required to swap classes. So it was a way to expand on their first job system while including job related quests, which you will hate mind you. Eventually with 5 they would iron out the details and perfect the system.
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>>10908832
>I heard the game was considered too complex
You mean 2 right? 3 is my least favourite of the first 9 games and the ones after that don't exist.
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>>10908663
>What happened to the stat growth from the last game
FFII was a Kawazu game. FFII was enough of a success that Square was able to do many projects. So FFIII, the first Mana game, and the first SaGa game could be developed. Kawazu would be heading the SaGa project and developed that series up until this day.
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>>10908663
It's not easy to balance or even structure the game around 2's stat system. The player will just inevitably break the game by abusing it. I imagine that's why 2 is the only game with temporary/touch status effects. Monsters didn't need to even hit you be able to inflict death because if the player leveled shield nothing would hit them.
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>>10908858
The only reason why people broke it was through hitting themselves in front of weak monsters for a couple or so hours. In later games targeting your party was removed so such exploits wouldn't happen.
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>>10908838
Yeah, he's talking about FF2. The systems used in FF2 were later built upon in the SaGa series.
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>>10908663
>What happened to the stat growth from the last game?
It sucked and was obnoxiously grindy. Having to level up each aspect of your character individually was dumb.
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>>10908865
>hit yourself for more HP
That's not even what he's talking about; FF2's stat system can be broken far beyond that. By wearing double shields and just doing nothing and letting enemies hit you, your Evasion stat will increase. Get it high enough and you'll have like a 95% chance to avoid any melee attack.
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>>10908663
FF2's stat growth was an interesting mechanic, but you ended up with 3000-4000 HP in a game where no enemy seems capable of doing more than a few hundred damage. It needed to be put on the backburner.
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>>10908663
Ive only played the ds version, waiting to get the pixel remaster on sale. I really enjoyed it but i filtered at the end so im anxious to see the ending.
>>10908854
Saga is on sale, ive played the adventure games on gb so what saga should i begin with?
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>>10908989
I don't think that's a excuse to throw away the whole system. In FF you usually gain more experience by fighting more powerful units, so do the same for stats.
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>>10909002
That's how SaGa works, except it doesn't rely on stat loss or using abilities to grow instead. Excepting Treasure Legend, your stats (aside from HP, JP, and WP) in SaGa are fairly static, and your power comes from equipment and sparking new skills.
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>>10908995
I recommend SaGa Frontier, but check out the synopsis of some of them and see which one interests you the most. SaGa Frontier has seven different routes with their own stories and end bosses, and four different races that develop differently. It's off beat, but has a ton of charm.
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>>10908995
Play the Gameboy games or romancing saga
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>>10908667
Woah now. 8 is my favorite, but shut the fuck up.
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>>10908906
is not the only way to abuse that system
>get hit by fire element several times
>make yourself immune to fire.
and so on.
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>>10908989
>but you ended up with 3000-4000 HP in a game where no enemy seems capable of doing more than a few hundred damage.

How the fuck did you make that happen though other than on purpose? You need to get hit a lot during a combat to get an HP upgrade, meaning you'd need to lose something like 1500-2000 in a single combat at some point, and several times, and then more; in order to reach 3-4k.

Ah wait, I know now, you played one of the shitty PSP/GBA version that just hands out HP upgrades for free for no reasons.
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>>10908989
I disagree the problem with FF2's EXP system was actually the exact opposite where often battles wouldn't give you enough resources to level gradually especially in regards to MP.
Once you hit like 50+ MP on a character you need to use up a lot of it during a single battle in order to upgrade and that's just not how anyone plays Final Fantasy games, especially when the dungeons are as annoying as they are here.
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>>10909414
No I dual-wielded.
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>>10909406
That's Vagrant Story, anon.
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If FF3 was actually released in the west it would be far more popular.
It's a good game but has zero nostalgia bias so people are so quick and easy to put it on the bottom tier when it's objectively better than 1, 2, and 4.
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FF2's combat system is beyond fucked and the dungeon design is ass. Which sucks because the music is easily the best out of the first six games.
The game will either be too easy once you realize you can increase your evasion, or brutally unfair if you play it blind. If you didn't increase your evasion stat, I'd argue the endgame is miles more tedious than FF3's crystal tower. Common enemies like the Death Rider deal 3000+ damage because the game's fucked up drain mechanic. (Also the reason why the blood sword is so broken).
I wish FF2 could be better, but it's foolish to put this game above any other entries in the series.
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>>10909590
FF2's dungeons took notes from old dungeon crawlers which had large amounts of forced encounters on the "wrong" paths. That's what the dead-end rooms with the extremely high encounter rate was meant to represent.
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>>10909775
And that isn't good design. Absolute garbage that requires you to look up a guide.
II did have a good premise for a story though. I think a full on remake like VII would benefit this game the most.
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Most of the replies in this thread are dead on. The leveling system is cool in theory but in reality it doesn't work. Take the esuna spell for instance. At level 1 it only cures the big poison. To get it to cure shit that ruins your dungeon adventure like stone and curse you need to get it to level 6, and you aren't going to cure 300 instances of poison naturally. So your guy with esuna is basically entering every single battle using esuna on nothing so you can level it up.

That also leads into another problem that >>10909427 mentions where if you arent dumping tons of mana per turn then you aren't leveling it. And when you are dumping tons of mana a turn on nonsense you run out in the dungeon and have to leave. Its not a well implemented system that essentially forces you to just sit outside a town and enter long battles that waste your time casting every spell you want to level.
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>>10910213
>And that isn't good design. Absolute garbage that requires you to look up a guide.
You absolutely don't have to look up a guide for FF2. Out of the old famicom rpgs its one of the most straightforward. Yeah there are many forks in the dungeon but when you get to the end you just go the other way.
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>>10910281
>Out of the old famicom rpgs its one of the most straightforward
That would be 3, which is also the only playable NES FF.
Yes you can play through FF2 without a guide but it will be miserable and tedious. Especially if you play it blind. No blind player will ever think about maxing out evasion to make regular battles a joke. So if you play the game normally you'll have to suffer status inducing bullshit and random bursts of damage.
FF2's battles are the main flaw, not just the dungeons. The battles are either way too tedious, or laughably easy, neither of which are fun. FF2 NES is better than FF1 NES, but 1 managed to fix all its flaws in the remakes while 2's main flaws are still present in its remakes.
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>>10910321
>Especially if you play it blind. No blind player will ever think about maxing out evasion to make regular battles a joke.
I did. If you put a shield on (which makes sense) you're on your way to maxing evasion pretty quick. Its pretty obvious when you compare the tradeoff of putting some armor on that gives 4 defense or taking it off and gaining 20%+ evasion. You basically don't really get any armor in the game to begin with until the end.
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>>10908663
2 is GARBAGE. It's for the best that they didn't try to repeat it.
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>>10908675
If you play them then you're an even bigger loser.
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>>10910343
That still brings in another flaw in which the game punishes the player for playing the wrong way. There's no obvious signs that equipping the best armor is bad until the late game starting with the Mysidian tower where the common imp enemies confuse you en masse. And Also the Death Rider in the last dungeon. It's just FF2's design philosopy, same with the dungeons. You have to take a leap of faith and hope you pick the good 50/50 odds of not fucking yourself over and having a terrible time with the game,
Second playthrough of the game, I equipped shields and maxed out my evasion stats. And battles turned into jokes. There's no in-between difficulty in the battles that make it actually fun like in 1 and 3.
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>>10910376
FF2 had a great story and music. It would absolutely benefit from a proper remake where the shitty dungeon and battle mechanic gets fixed. Keep the level up system but make it combat based like with FF7 remake.
FF2 has an open overworld which is a great premise but that shit just doesn't work in a turn based RPG where you have no way of killing the late game monsters that appear in the world map without grinding. Making it an action RPG would allow you to actually have a fighting chance and make overworld exploration more fun.
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>>10910467
>"FF2 has an open overworld which is a great premise but that shit just doesn't work in a turn based RPG where you have no way of killing the late game monsters that appear in the world map without grinding. Making it an action RPG would allow you to actually have a fighting chance and make overworld exploration more fun."
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>>10910472
Yes and?
2 would be better that way.
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>>10910480
Adding to that, the game starts you off with a bunch of encounters with overpowered soldiers and you can either avoid them or fight them to get better equipment. A great idea in theory but since it's a turn based RPG, to actually defeat them you just have to grind your magic and that's not fun. Make it more like Zelda or Dark Souls would be better if they wanted to throw an OP monster in the beginning.
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>>10910480
This is the dumbest opinion I have read on this board. Please don't talk about RPGs. It's clear you just want bad action games. Try the ubisoft general on /vg/.
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>>10910380
How do you analyze them without playing them? You're the biggest loser by default.
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>>10908663
>FFIII thread
>Just devolves into FFII shitflinging
Sad, but goes to show how forgettable this entry is.
III was a good game, introduced a ton of series staples, more so than any other FF game. I and II felt more like DnD games while III was the first one that really felt like Final Fantasy. But yeah, because it laid so many foundations, it doesn't have anything special to stand up from its own. V did the job system better, VI did the music and story better. But it shouldn't be forgotten. I blame localization, too. The DS remake didn't do the original any justice.
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>>10908675
I'll never understand people who get upset about people "over-analyzing" games. This is a place to talk about games. If you only want to play them, go fucking play them.
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>>10910525
FF2 is so bad that making it an action would actually be an improvement.
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>>10910534
I'm curious, what foundations did it lay down?
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>>10910281
>Yeah there are many forks in the dungeon but when you get to the end you just go the other way.
Take a keek at the doors labeled A, there are multiple ones that put you in the middle of the room and it's not unusual to get 2-3 encounters in those rooms.
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>>10910213
>And that isn't good design.

Oh no no! A game with dead ends AND random encounters?! When will it start to RESPECT MY TIME!!!

Modern kids need to stop thinking that their braindead one-dimensional standards are the one and only "good design".
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>>10910806
SOUL
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>>10910806
>map doesn't tell about the the secret shop

Imagine all the retards that needed to play with a map for something that simple and who didn't find the shop because they assumed the map told them everything.

Absolutely based
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>>10910692
>Summons and most monsters that come with it, Titan, Shiva, Ramus, Ifrit, Odin. Leviathan and Bahamut are more fleshed out (Arguably the main identity of FF nowadays)
>Meteor spell
>Moogles
>A bunch of job classes that would later be iconic like summoner, dark knight, bard, sage, even fleshing out dragoon's identity (since you can actually jump now)
>All the modern battle UI and mechanics that would be present in later FF games like autotargeting, unique battle commands. and damage shown next to targets (Revolutionary for its time)
>The dungeon design. Hallway-like structure with secrets that also has some branching paths for treasures. (There's no dead ends, every path at least gives you treasure)
>Not really introduced, but III fleshed out a lot of things introduced earlier in the series like Chocobo's theme being expanded, and Cid being a more fleshed out character instead of just dying.

FFIII really helped lay the foundation for a lot of the fantasy elements in the franchise.
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>>10910826
If your only argument is to say "GIT GUD" then the game you're defending is badly designed and only attracts contrarian autists like you.
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Is this the FF2 thread? What does this double bow damage mean? For some reason my axe guy randomly went god mode and shit out some insane damage after getting affected by some statuses. Is this a glitch?
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>>10908663
FF3 is basically a remade FF1, that's why.
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>>10910920
what the fuck?
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>>10911021
So I assume its not a well known glitch in the FFII community? Its basically the only reason I beat the last boss which is nice, the fight was taking 30 minutes and I was doing no damage then I believe the emperor cast slow on Guy and he started cranking. I assume its some sort of stack underflow in his stats? If it is a glitch that is, I really dont know.
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seriously for the love of god what the fuck is an onion knight
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>>10911097
knight with an onion helmet
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>>10908663
Just go play SaGa
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I'll say it here, the crystal tower gauntlet isn't even that hard. I don't get the complaints. It's not even the hardest part of the game.
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>>10911193
ff fans aren't used to having to watch out for their resources and play things conservatively

though imagine much how much it'd suck being a little japanese kid on release on a school night and your parents tell you to go to bed and there's no save point in sight. probably had to put aside an entire day to beat FF3 back then
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>>10911197
Yeah it's long, but compared to the other two NES games, the battles go by much faster, so maybe it could've balanced out the slightly longer endgame dungeon.
It's pretty grindy yeah, but that's not a bad thing. But if people really hated that, Bahamut's Cave gives you way more exp than the crystal tower/ancient maze and people often overlook that.
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>>10908854
>SaGa had Final Fantasy in its blood all along, just like Seiken Densetsu
Another one in the "localizers were right all along and got unfairly dogpiled by know-it-all nobodies on early internet" pile...
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>>10908667
kys
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>>10909062
Ill just grab frontier and another one, ive been curious about the series anyway. Thanks.
>>10909131
Ive played legends or adventure or what ever the subtitle is. Really fun for gameboy.
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>>10908675
Very anti intellectual, you should not be proud of this. Its a message board for talking about games anyway, what, do you want all the posts to be "X was mid" or dicksucking a game you played when you were 12
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>>10909554
>It's a good game but has zero nostalgia bias so people are so quick and easy to put it on the bottom tier when it's objectively better than 1, 2, and 4.
I like this game so far but I don't think that's completely it, 5 iterated on the job system it introduced, while those other games you mention had more of an actual plot. FF1 also was the first game and has a charming simplicity. That being said I do not see people dog on 3 that much and I mostly see people talking about all the important series conventions it introduced
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>>10908667
Whatever...
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>>10908989
That seems to be exactly why they put in the percentage based attacks that start around the Finn basement dungeon. If you have 9999 hp enemies will hit you for 5000+ damage, especially when you are wearing heavy armor. They did a really good job with balance in hindsight, it's just that the game doesn't explain anything
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>>10912168
I'd rather they buff the enemy attacks and spells instead of giving that move to random mobs.
Astoroth and the Emperor do have percentage based attacks but they'll barely use it so all the bosses become piss easy.
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>>10910467
>It would absolutely benefit from a proper remake where the shitty dungeon and battle mechanic gets fixed.
This is basically what every port of FF2 is.
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>>10908663
Talk about an upgrade though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwQL93qMZoU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoWc_cpkkWo
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But they added jobs, it's more like a sidegrade. The bigger issue is the onions being boring as fuck coming from Firion & co.

>>10912667
That popping sounds awful compared to the clean music in FF2.
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>>10911043
Uhhh never heard of it, therefore it should be in every final fantasy game going forward. Pissed off double bow attack
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>>10909554
I haven't played three more than a few hours but all I see people hating on is the mini areas and others that essentially require that you use certain jobs. Sentiment seems to be that it takes the fun out of job switching if you just have to do what the zone requires anyway.
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>>10910870
That's not what he said and I 100% agree with him about the way zoomers bitch pretentiously about game design.
Just make the argument that FF2's dungeons get too tedious and monotonous and leave it at that, don't pretend like there's some deeper game design principle being violated.
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>>10911124
Which was the style at the time
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>>10913497
You can be anything in FF3, except in situations where all of your party must be a toad, a midget, a dragoon, a magic user, a dark knight, and some other shit. At least you have more options than just corpo or hacker.
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>>10909775
I like dungeon crawling but I don't like FF2's excess use of trap rooms and how uniform they are. Most floors were 3-5 doors, 1 continues the dungeon and the rest put you in middle of the same indistinct square trap room. Repeat for several floors. Terrible variety. Sometimes they'd be lazy and line up the doors next to each other. And I wasn't happy to choose the right door either, because I wanted to check all the trap doors anyway in case the devs were cheeky and decided "we're going to hide some good treasure in THIS dead end room".
What would feel better is to replace those trap rooms with dead-end paths built into the actual floor layout. Keep a few trap rooms but there should be a lot less.
I don't understand how they didn't consider FF2 dungeons to be a step down from FF1's dungeons while making them.
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>>10915137
>in case the devs were cheeky and decided "we're going to hide some good treasure in THIS dead end room".
lol
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>>10908667
Good bait lmao
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>>10910467
>FF2 has an open overworld which is a great premise but that shit just doesn't work in a turn based RPG where you have no way of killing the late game monsters that appear in the world map
It has been working well for FFII's designer in his later games in the form of battle rank.
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FF3 could use more porn.
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What is the definitive way to play FF2? Is the PR version any good?
>>10915873
The main characters are kids.



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