There was no logical reason for him to win. I don't even remember defeating an elite 4 member at any point in the story so Joe can he possibly go toe to toe with champions? Also why didn't they have him use his old pokemon like he did In Sinnoh the most beloved league?
>>268030570They were going to retire him so might as well give him a win.
>>268030609Why not making vs Tobias rematch?
>>268030570The answer to all these questions is, because he was the main character of the show for 25 years
>>268030570>I don't even remember defeating an elite 4 member at any point in the storynot relevant, but by default, he beat all of them just by making top 8. Also, you didn't actually watch the show as Kalos E4 member Drasna was one of his opponents on his way up the ranks.
>>268030638Champion Ash jobbed to Lugia, he is far from being able to take on a team of 6 Legendaries.
>>268030570That's not Ash Ketchum
>>268030570Who's Joe?
>>268030570Kanto-Sinnoh Ash is an entirely different character from Unova-Kalos Ash who is an even more entirely different character from Alola-End Ash. Point is, it's not the Ash we know and love who "won".
>>268030699Is that the mother fucking legendary QUALITY lugina??
>>268030993>>268030745mental illness
>>268030638Because he lost like a bitch to Cynthia.
>>268031117No, you.
>>268030638He would never be able to defeat Tobias.
>>268030570>JoeLiterally who?
>>268030570>I don't even remember defeating an elite 4 member at any point in the story so Joe can he possibly go toe to toe with champions?This is my exact problem with it. Ash literally only won in the newly formed scrub league where one of the people had like 6 magikarps, and he still barely scraped by, then suddenly he wins everything???How I would have done it:He should have won DP (fuck tobias). Then he has an "off season" in BW just waiting for the championship, not really trying that much. Call it hubris or whatever, just trying to have a way to make BW soft reset make sense. After BW he goes to champs, and gets fucked up, maybe places in the 70s or something. So he goes back and starts trying to build up new teams and trying different stuff. Cue XY where we get Ash dominating the circuit because he's not taking it easy and he is an experienced vet at this point. Have him win XY (Greninja shit actually gets payoff). He takes a quick break at Alola to help him get ready for the tournament, and to check out Z move shit. He wins that obviously. Then he goes to champs again... and he places in top 20. Then he goes back to the drawing board and does SV stuff, and maybe goes back to collect wins in past circuits like Kanto and RSE. This gives you an inbetween season to catch up on old characters and is an obvious build up for the final season instead of shoving it all in Champs. After securing a bunch of wins, he does Champs one more time and wins everything.After the initial fanfare, a voice rings out: "Very good Ash, wonderful display! HOWEVER..."Ash makes a shocked face and says, "Dad?!"Final few episodes is emotional reunion/final fight. Gary fucking Oak throws Ash's original hat back to him and he dons it. Pikachu gets the finishing blow while original opening of the series plays. Maybe some talks about what it means to be a Pokemon Master. End credits.
>>268031117NTA but go on, justify how Sinnoh Ash turned into Unova Ash. Have it make sense without him being hit with the retard beam
>>268031798Sure sureWhere is Tobias rematch?
>>268035529Joe mama
>>268036084>where one of the people had like 6 magikarpsWhile another trainer had a freaking Legendary and a Zoroark.
>>268030570You can thank the huge temper tantrum the fans threw after Kalos for why Ash got handed pity wins starting in Alola. It's actually worse than if he had just stayed a jobber the entire time.
>>268030570>>268036084>>268038511Ash is like super champion level by SM. He lost in DP because of a guy with fucking legendaries. He lost in XY to a guy who was regularly beating elite fours. Even then his loss was hardly justified. The opponents in SM didn't matter shit, people keep being up shit like how a guy had 6 magikarps, but that shit doesn't matter, some shitters near the bottom has no bearing on the ability of the top. He punched far above his weight in SM, not even losing a battle once until like what was it 80 episodes in and that's keeping in mind he was still using baby Pokemon he finds in the region as opposed to legendaries and fully evolveds. It's clear he was already above champion level then, he just wasn't officially a champion because the writers like to make [circumstances] to keep the show running. So it makes sense that by pm2019, with a full team of fully evolved strong Pokemon and legendaries, he would be going toe to toe with other champions. Ash's battle skill pretty consistently goes up with each region (except the unova disaster), it's just that circa DP his achievements stop matching.
>>268039462>on the ability of the topThere were people in Top 16 who didn't even have 2 Pokemon. The Championship battle wasn't even a full battle
>>268039462>Man ash keeps getting better and better how will we show this?>maybe he can win DP? Nah Tobias legendary spam lmao>maybe he can win XY? Nah tired Charizard tanking the super duper spirit Kamehameha canon rasengan shuriken because fuck you lmao>oh no fans are mad what do>oh I know>I'll have Ash win the absolute shittiest league!And you know the kicker? HE STILL FUCKING LOST BECAUSE HIS POKEMON WENT TO SLEEP AGAINST HAUYOU KNOW, LIKE HOW HE GOT DQ'D FROM KANTO BECAUSE CHARIZARD FELL ASLEEP?YEAHE NEEDED LITERAL PLOT AMNESIA TO WIN THE BITCH LEAGUEStop fucking bootlicking, it was a terrible way to show progress. they had two different opportunities to show him winning something meaningful, then they blew it, tried a half ass apology, and when nobody cared decided to wrap it up with terrible pacing
>>268038511>Its the fans fault for terrible writing!!!You could remove the entire Greninja sync super move shit because it amounted to nothing. This is bad writing. It isnt the fans fault that they fucked up, and fans are entitled to a decent fucking story with bare minimum passable writing. It's also not our fucking problem that they couldnt rebound and make him look cool in his one and only league win.
>>268040794Hate to break it to you, but the Ashnime never had good writing. It's probably the worst anime series ever made when you factor in how long it dragged on for and how many episodes were completely worthless. Even if Ash had won in Kalos, it'd still be shit.
>>268038511he wouldnt need pity wins if the writers didnt keep asspulling loses for him in the first place
>>268040959>actually it was always bad and-not an argument, stop blaming fans for wanting something decent
>>268040472Personally, I liked the idea of Ash not just being the best. Hes still 10 and it makes the world seem vast when he can perform as well as he did in DP and still not be close to a Champion. Paul was great as a rival because his existence basically says "Yeah, going from region to region to complete is the normal thing, you're not special for that Ash". Self-inserters want the instant gratification of their insert being the best, but there being many different people around the world who can compete at his level and that the Champions were on a completely different level was more interesting to me.
The finale should have been him finally going back to win the Kanto league. Would have been a good way to show us what the original Gym Leaders have been up to who he could have battled as training/warm-up for the Kanto League.
>>268041214>>268041214>Self-insertersNo, I want actual pacing and him to retread. Not for it all to be backloaded at breakneck speed. See >>268036084
>>268041319Without being a self-inserter, why was Kalos bad?
>>268041649I literally told you already. You could remove the entirety of Ash-Greninja super move training shit and it does not change the story in any meaningful way because it amounted to absolutely nothing. That is bad writing. Full stop. Charizard pandering is also terrible because he fucking solo'd half of Ash's team including the frog while being tired.Screech about muh self insert all you want, you are bending over backwards to justify Ash not being able to get wins for bullshit reasons twice. They didnt even have the decency to run it back in champs. Thats awful.
>>268030692>he beat all of them just by making top 8.Which is precisely where it's lazy, it's the definition of a rushed plot. "ok let's just make a tournament that counts as beating all e4s together cuz...it does lol".
>>268042424You deny it, but your reasoning is amounting to "Ash should be the best just because" which is self-insert shit.
>>268040472>>maybe he can win XY? Nah tired Charizard tanking the super duper spirit Kamehameha canon rasengan shuriken because fuck you lmao>people conveniently forget how greninja won against the shota's quad resist mega sceptile
>>268043631No he should have gotten wins because he demonstrated he dominated and the writers literally had to asspull reasons for him not to win. It is not my fault that the writers hyped up super moves that did nothing./ It is not my fault that they wrote themselves into a corner and had to asspull a pokemon somehow tanking shit he shouldnt be able to tank. Again, this is bad writing, full fucking stop. Nobody defends shit like this aside from pokefag bootlickers. Someone winning something that they demonstrably showed dominance in is not self insert, its logical progression. It is not self insert to expect a move you hyped all fucking season to do fuck all narratively. That is a gross waste of time and thus is a cardinal sin of writing. You have zero argument against this.
>>268043631>winning in kalos>self-insert>ok now lemme win TOP 8+ champion of ALL TIME cuz im the best>uhh??mm..
>>268045819Yes, World Champion win exists to satiate self-inserters
>>268047483No, it exists because they knew they fucked up and hastily ended the series. You have zero fucking argument against Ash not winning DP and XY and are just crying about muh self insert. Name another fucking story in a similar vein of pokemon where the protag goes for over 1000 episodes without fucking winning anything, losing to increasingly retarded reasons. Go on. There isnt any. It is NOT the fans fault that the writers kept using retarded asspulls to prevent a logical win.
>>268048153>You have zero fucking argument against Ash not winning DP and XYHis opponents were better than him
>>268043864Greninja mostly used Aerial Ace against Sceptile.
>>268036084>actual autism
>>268041214>Hes still 10 and it makes the world seem vast when he can perform as wellProblem is that Ash will always be 10 no matter how much time passes. Most people tends to ignore that pokemon is an anime on a floating timeline which makes it more similar Doraemon & Crayon Shin chan type anime than plot driven show like Digimon and YGO. Ash becoming world champion and settling his score with his old rivals would just remove all the baggage and allow Pokémon to be full adventure anime such as Frieren.Unfortunately JN avoid Ash settling his score with old rivals that he yet to defeat like a plague because the first person on that list would be Alain.
>>268048347>being this intellectually dishonestTobias was an asspull to keep Ash from winning and never showed up ever again. Alain was competent, but the bad writing comes from the fact that they wasted the audience's time hyping up a move that did nothing and contributed nothing. If you can remove an entire section like this and it changed nothing, its superfluous and shit. Full fucking stop.You have zero argument.
>>268048743>wanting a show to be decently paced and logically consistent is autismGo guzzle down the latest starwars shit or something you no standards faggot. You have nothing to contribute to the conversation anyway
>>268048743>You cant discuss things thats le autism!!!reddit is the other direction
>>268036084>Ash literally only won in the newly formed scrub league where one of the people had like 6 magikarpsIt bears repeating but the kanto league invite requirements included alternatives like passing a physical and written exam or attending a good pokemon school, you retards put way to much importance on two joke characters who placed in the bottom two out of 150 participants.
>>268048774>Alain was competentTraining just one Pokémon and help an evil organisation to nearly commit mass genocide is no sign of competence. Even JN Ash was smart enough to decline Chairman Rose's offer, Alain was nearly at his 20 & he never even bothered to suspect that this shady business man that suddenly giving him free Keystone & Mega stone to stop some evil people that he never even encounter might be up to no good.Alain is probably one of the most incompetent protagonist of the franchise.
>>268048843>>268048925yes, having an autistic meltdown because a show for children didn't follow your fanfiction is evidence of a mental illness. For the above to be "well-paced" it would have to go on for another 20-plus years, and that bit at the end about his non-existent father was retarded and as fuck. The fact you're actually upset shows that you legit believe that was a good write-up and aren't just shitposting
>>268049010"competent" is a strong word, I'll admit. I'm trying to say he's an actual character and shows up again and can actually fight without legendary spam (though muh charizard isnt much better). The point is that he was atleast around and didnt come out of left field like Tobias. But its still shit because his fucking charizard solo'd 3 of ash's pokes including super duper synch ninja frog that launched his perfected gigaslave bankai domain shurikan that was hyped all season only for it to do fuck all.Different reasons, but still shit writing for both./ That guy trying to handwave the anger about it as just being sour about muh self insert is intellectually dishonest.
>>268049245>he's an actual characterYou mean an actual self insert.An actual character faces consequences for his actions but Alain is the one character who got rewarded and praised for every wrong things he did. Not a single character from the series was allowed to say that he did anything wrong. Heck his only companion Manon literally had to be his pet instead of getting her own goal and motivation, even a simp like Serena developed her own goal beyond following Ash.Alain wasn't a character, he was a self insert.
Ignore the raiding schizo above, he got baited from /vp/ into throwing a fit and protecting here >>>/vp/56070782
>>268049223>yes, having an autistic meltdown because a show for children didn't follow your fanfiction is evidence of a mental illness.Expecting a show to have logical progression and a satisfying conclusion is autism and fanfic? Kek shut the fuck up faggot.>For the above to be "well-paced" it would have to go on for another 20-plus yearsNo, I added maybe 2-3 seasons worth at most, it would be a few years. But sure lets go with 20 years... why is that an issue when its been going on that long anyway? You cant appeal to this as an argument. The show had already gone on for a long ass time. It is not the fan's problem that they couldnt have the foresight pace it properly. Its not my fucking problem that they fucked up and then abruptly ended the series because they cant plan for shit. Shut the fuck up, bootlicker>and that bit at the end about his non-existent father was retarded and as fuck. I threw that bit in to tie up a loose end, but feel free to disregard it. It would be a nice way to come full circle but its not like Im going to die on that hill.>The fact you're actually upset shows that you legit believe that was a good write-up and aren't just shitpostingWhat, me actually pacing out the series properly isnt good? I'm upset because the pacing of the series fucking SUCKS and there is zero logical progression. Why the FUCK does pokemon get a pass for basic story beats you bootlicking faggot?And you still cant explain why Tobias/Alain winning is good. You go "muh self insert" and triple sown. You have no argument. You dont understand simple storytelling. You are a faggot that is too attatched to a series you loved as a child and see any form of valid criticism as a personal attack against you. Get a grip and read a book.
>>268049002Joke characters like Lillie, Jessie and James made top 16 over competent trainers, and the final battle wasn't even a full battle
>>268049533nta but Ash beating Tobias or anyone else would have been like Mumen Rider beating Saitama. It just shouldn't happen outside of as a joke, there's a world of difference between their power and skill.
>>268049751Tobias admitted that Gible's Draco Meteor would have destroyed any of his pokemon except Darkrai. I guess this explains how Cynthia defeated him.
>>268049860Okay...? We're not talking about Cynthia, but Mumen Rider wouldn't beat Genos either.
>>268048566And it list due to not being able to tank a quad resist move.
>>268030570> Alola had no gyms> Galar had no E4 and players has to win a tournament against gum leader to challenge Leon & one of the gym leader was a Champion level trainer.> Paldea treats gym challenge like a school assignment and there are multiple champion ranked trainer and one the E4 is also a gum leader which makes it impossible to have a league conference with over 100 trainers.At the end Kalos truly was the last time for Ash to win a proper league conference since the later gen game were changing their formula that makes it impossible to hold a traditional league conference.
>>268049443No, Alain is not a self insert because the audience by and large do not see him as such. Ash is a self-insert because the audience judges the quality of the show entirely around how successful he is. Thats why people complain that Ash lost against Alain, and why some will defend him winning in SM and then being good enough to be world champ. People self-insert as him and see his success as their own and feel insulted by his failures.
>>268050055Sceptile had been hit by a ton of moves by the time it went down. Conversely, Greninja in the finals got hit by a whopping one Dragon Claw before going down to Blast Burn while Charizard was hit by two Thunderbolts by Pikachu plus four or five of Greninja's moves including the crazy Water Shuriken at the end. It was utter bullshit.
>>268049443I admit, I looked at a few episodes with Alain/the spinoff and, damn, these are some Giga Stu vibes. It's like watching smartphone isekai.>>268049751>Mumen Rider beating Saitama. It just shouldn't happen outside of as a jokeCase in point. ...What? This anon compared the guy to Saitama. Why tf do you have some trainer who's straight unbeatable and isn't even e4 but eats e4 for candy...WHAT. That's what a Sue IS. It's straight outta the Sue handbook.
>>268050138>Alain is not a self insert because the audience by and large do not see him as suchBecause the audience weren't miserable enough to self insert as Alain. Furthermore, its the producer & writing stuff of the show that self insert as a character in the show. The audience are just observers, they has no control over a story. You can't push a self insert in a series if you don't have any control over the show.
>>268050145This isn't the games where numbers reign supreme. HP and stats do nor exist. Or are you disecting why Charizard tanked but ignoring all that Pikachu tanked that same match?
>>268050222That's part of why I brought up Saitama. If Tobias was a sue as is being claimed, then why should Ash win? That would just make Ash an even bigger sue.I also brought Saitama up to highlight the simple difference in power. Tobias had several legendaries. Ash wasn't beating that. That is, sue bullshit aside, literally like pitting Mumen Rider against Saitama. There's not a chance in hell Ash or Mument Rider are winning these respective fights.
>>268050275>You can't push a self insert in a series if you don't have any control over the show.That is a load of bull and you know it. Audiences self insert all the time. You don't get to redefine the act of self-inserting just sp that it can't apply to Ash.
>>268050311Weaknesses and resistances are brought up constantly. If you want to bring overall narrative into it as being more important, then it makes even less sense for Greninja to lose in the exact same way as the first battle between it and Charizard despite the entire arc being dedicated to it getting stronger and becoming its match. Ash only lost because the higher-ups decided he wasn't allowed to win yet.
>>268050348>If Tobias was a sue as is being claimed, then why should Ash win?Tobias was a plot device, not a sue. His entire goal was to prevent Ash from winning the Sinnoh League in a way that actually makes Ash look better. He made no appearance in the future, no even in the Master Tournament where he should have taken Alain's spot.Remember that even Goh has two legendary and we don't actually know what other pokemon Tobias actually had. Even Brandon had three legendary Golum.
>>268030570He beat Frontier Brains before and those are easily E4-tier.
>>268050474Not consistently. It's so inconsistent that it's become that aiming for the horn lets you bypass resistances.You guys are treating the pokemon cartoon like it's a real anime that cares about the bare-minimum quality control. But it doesn't, kek
>>268030570>watching chinese cartoons made for 10yr oldsseek help
>>268050436>Audiences self insert all the timeOnly in their imagination but it never becomes part of the show. I can imagine myself as the 9th Digidestined with a special crest and special destiny who steals Kari from Tk in future Digimon movie but that doesn't mean there will be such character in Digimon. (In fact, I find Pokémon Trainer to be cooler than Digidestined).
>>268050553>You guys are treating the pokemon cartoon like it's a real anime that cares about the bare-minimum quality control. But it doesn't, kekWow, you finally got my point.
>>268050603>Unrelated digimon babblingYou're actually insane. Get bent schizoid.
>>268050536Not in the anime
>>268050603>Only in their imaginationHow does one self insert outside of their imagination? Are you astral projecting yourself into Ash and literally self inserting as him?You /vp/edos are retarded.
>>268050662Yes in the anime.
>>268050489Wait, it's actually common for people to have legendaries in the pokemon anime???Then what the fuck is wrong with Tobias? He's just another person who has a couple legendaries.
>>268050719They were only compared to Gym Leaders by Scott. And Ash beat them all but couldn't beat Agatha.
>>268050856Hes strong and beat Ash. Thats literally his only crime and why he is hated.
>>268049751>nta but Ash beating Tobias or anyone else would have been like Mumen Rider beating Saitama.Tobias is a non-character that showed up only one time in the series for the express purpose of cockblocking a logical victory for Ash. Aka an asspull.In otherwords, the point of contention isnt that people are mad that Ash couldnt beat a team of legendaries, they are rightly upset that this literal who that never showed up or was foreshadowed or anything just waltzed in with fucking legendaries and swept only to fuck off forever. He shouldnt have fucking existed in the first place. The other guy is arguing that we wanted to self insert into Ash when if anything Tobias is the self insert>heh, nuthin personnel kid, I'll just fuck you up with my entire team of legendaries with zero explaination and then disappear mysteriouslyWhy wouldnt people be mad about such shoddy writing?
>>268050681>How does one self insert outside of their imagination? Are you astral projecting yourself into Ash and literally self inserting as him?You're proving his point right, the writers can self insert outside of their imagining by actively writing the character to be what they want. Which is why the idea that the audience can self insert is wrong, it's all in their imagination. The writers can do what the audience cant
>>268051109That's the same thing that happened in just about every other competition, the competitor who won was never encountered early. And the only time we did get shown the overall winner early they only appeared as early as Tobias did. That is, 6 episodes before the final battle.None of these arguments have any consistency. Tobias was no different from any other character that won.
>>268050138>Thats why people complain that Ash lost against AlainNO you dishonest retard. It is SHIT writing to hype a super move for an entire fucking season for it to MEAN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. That is shit writing. A waste of the viewers time. You cant argue this, just liike you cant argue how absurd it is that muh charizard tanked that after being tired from taking on 2 other fucking pokemon. There is no logical consistency. If you are ok with zero logical consistency in the series, then you would be ok with Ash sprouting wings from his cock to fly to the moon and fight clefable jews or some shit because who gives a shit about establish universe logic and scaling, right?You have no arguement and you just keep insisting that people hate it because muh self insert. Again, name a fucking show that has the protagonist losing in increasingly more bullshit ways for 1k+ episodes. You didnt last time because you couldnt.Lets take it even further, if the shoe was on the other foot and Alain was the MC and fought against Ash, do you think he wouldnt be a gary stu? Because we both know everyone would be saying he had hella plot armor.
>>268051323>the character to be what they wantThat's what writing is. This may come as a surprise to you but the words that you write down don't appear of their own free will.
>>268051348Tobias was the point where it was becoming really fucking clear that Ash was fighting the writers. BW was also bullshit because LOL NEWLY EVOLVED FORM LMFAO but BW sucked ass in general
>>268051583I don't follow? How was Ash fighting the writers when writers are the only reason Ash had any badges or pokemon in the first place? He's not a living entity like in the animator vs stick figure flashes. Everything he gets was given by the writers to begin with.
>>268030570Masters 8 is fucking trash. Shit animation and very underwhelming battles for the final tournament of the anime.
>>268051679I like how they had to change the rules and give Ash a handicap for the final fight just to let him win.
>>268030751Joe Ligma
>>268051768Yeah, that was hilarious. Leon says fuck it and let Ash break the rules but the biggest crime in Masters 8 is Diantha not getting a proper battle with Leon and Cynthia's IQ going down the drain after Spiritomb got taken out. Not to mention bitch's Garchomp only have dragon-type attacks and a fucking useless stealth rock that she only used half way through the match. She's lucky she dodged Diantha in the first round. I swear it's the most disappointing final arc for a long running anime.
>>268050489>two legendary>>268050856>just another person who has a couple legendaries>legendarieswhat. the. fug...!!!A legendary is supposed to be unique, rare, mythical even. They're unique events. It's NOT meant to be common, and only one of them exist. What are they doing that everyone has them now?? nu-pokemon is mistake...
>>268053072>nu-pokemon is mistake..the shitty anime was always like that Ash and his anime were a mistake
>>268053072Multiple legendaries have been a thing since OS where there's a Lugia with a baby Lugia even though Lugia was supposed to be like a mythical guardian of seas Yeah I'm like 99% certain that was the first time a legendary went from being a singular thing to establishing there are multiple of them
>>268030570Still a jober
i stopped watching at hoenn the new style was vomite inducing, but ash fighting legendaries was kinda always a thing. He always lost to them, but i clearly remember him defeating an articuno.
>>268030638what was his fucking deal? How did he get an action replay?
>>268030638BTW Shinora still the champion so Tobias lost against her even with full Legendary team.
>>268053280>was always like that Ashfirst episode Oak tells ash Oh-Ho is freakin' incredible and Ash couldn't have seen it. even mewtwo/mew were unique cases. you did NOT yet have "oh shucks, that trainer got two Oh-Hos! welp just another day in dah leagues"
>>268055987At that point in the anime Ash had already encounter multiple Latios and multiple Darkrai. The difference between Ash and him is that he decided to recruit his Darkrai and Latios.On top of that, both Latios and Darkrai are obtainable in-game without action replay.
>>268056394kek
>>268055929Based.
>>268056743>both Latios and Darkrai are obtainable in-game without action replayYou can only get darkrai if you've got the toys r us event, which isn't available anymore
>>268030570>XY fags are still seethingSad
>>268061240Yes, meaning you didn't need action replay. It's a mythical pokemon, meaning it's limited time catch and not one you can just catch in the grass or make infinite of by restarting your game over and over.Just like we had a brief window to catch a Darkrai thanks to Toys R Us, god bless amen, so too did Ash have a chance to catch a Darkrai. Twice. And he failed both times.That's the difference between Ash and Tobias. One seizes an opportunity, while the other doesn't even realize one had just passed them.
>>268061240wasnt that shit a wifi eventyou didn't need to go anywhere if you synced your ds to the wifi when it was out
