Not even THAT page from AOT compares
Urobuchi can write. Nasu cannot.
>>273446016>Urobutcher [Headcanon]
>>273445995You mean it ruined Nasu?
>>273445995Saberkeks will never let this go will they?
>>273445995Exactly what was so terrible about this that you had to invoke Cuckren?
that was my favourite scene in fate zero and single handedly redeemed it for me
>>273446157It is one of the most infamous character assassinations of all time.
>>273446016Fpbp
>>273445995What's so bad about it?
>>273446226He pulls out caliburn not Excalibur.
>>273446226For me, it's nine bullet revolver.
>>273446388It's basically argued being a shitty tyrant with no remorse is proper kingship.
>>273446451Isn't that just Iskandar's characterization?
>>273446451I saw it as a bunch of extreme viewpoints coming to a table, from tyrannical to naive. Each one has a fragment of something great, if only if could be hammered into a single balanced whole.
>>273446451Based
>>273446579The scene framed Author's PetKander as being right. Saber wasn't even given an opportunity to defend herself and looked like she was getting fisted.
>>273446863I see. The author personally offended you by not making her the perfect little Mary Sue you want her to be.
>>273446863She had no way to defend herself against Rider's 'no regrets' schtick when the point was that she regrets her reign. It's not about the right or wrong way to rule.
>>273447044Yes, he did personally offend me by expositing his awful philosophizing in this scene. The ending takes the cake though.
What was Gilgamesh's contribution to the conversation, again?
>>273446451I didn't see it that way. I thought it was just various perspectives on what it means to be King. None of them were necessarily correct or proper, but each one was based on their own personal experience as rulers.
>>273447174Laughing at saber and >muh everything belongs to me
>>273445995I mean, King Arthur was an idiot who got his kingdom destroyed by the wrath of God due to his inability to do the virtuous thing, so yeah. It only follows that a female version of him would be even more pathetic.
>>273446016Not after Aldnoah Zero.
>>273446061retard
>>273447090Calling him a retard would've been a good start.
>>273447565He wrote just the beginning for that one.
>>273447565Thunderbolt Fantasy came after, he's still got it. Meguca film will be great.
>>273446451You have to adjust each ruler to their timeframe. (By today's standards even Saiba is technically a tyrant as an absolute monarch)Gil just sees being a King and "lamenting it" is a masochist guilt trip. Protect and define the Law and you've done your duty as a King (he's from 6000+ years ago, so setting up some organization/logistics in ancient times meant more than today)Iskander sees that the buden of being a King as keeping the subjects in a highly inflammed emotional state, so that regardless of their opinion of the king, his mere existence ensures the subjects are always energized/ambitious, and from there on they will figure out their thing, even if he's not there.Saber after lamenting herself says that she has to constantly save her subjects in a just manner. Which she does until she fails one time to, and the subjects didn't have enough experience to know to manage without her.Saber rethorically does a Lancer and defeats herself, if her ruling points were good she wouldn't be all over guilt and lamentation; Rider and Archer are just pointing it out
>>273447658Saber would NEVER use the R word.
>>273447797The beginning still had that bland shitstain in it.
>>273446226lmao
>>273446016fpbp
>>273447838She will beat you senseless to convey her feeling of disappointment.
>>273447818Administrator, Leader, ProtectorAll good answers
>>273446226KINO
>>273446226
>>273446863>Saber wasn't even given an opportunity to defend herself and looked like she was getting fisted.you know that she aimed to defend the kingdom, and failed, right? the real question is why is she even invited to that meetingand if you want some fun lore about your perfect little girl - before she fucked up her kingdom - she started it by doing a Herod>A: Merlin.. why did you tell me that a child born this year would in time take over my kingdom?>M: I just wanted to see if you would go and kill all babies born this year (and you did)
>>273445995stop making the same thread also watch thunderbolt fantasy
Who cares, Narita forced Uro to retcon it to make Seibah looks better.
>>273445995it exposed Nasu as a bad writer as he couldn't make kino like this
I don't hate /Zero I just think it's not as good as F/SN. F/SN has more layers to it while /Zero plays the battle royale aspect far more straight instead of as a vehicle to explore themes. The latter is more interesting to me, thus I like /SN more.
Imagine being Butcher and writing while knowing that kiritsugu and saber are literally not allowed to talk with each other except for the 3 command seals. If he has already retconned other stuff I wonder why he was so keen on keeping that condition in.
>>273447818But Iskander's subjects DIDN'T know what to do when he was gone. His empire tore itself to pieces after he left. Saber's country did much better after her.
>>273446451it is though
>>273445995The People are possessions who exist to serve the king. Simple as.
>>273448538>Saber's country did much better after her.Anon, the Kingdom of Camelot was fucking destroyed immediately after King Arthur's death. Then the Saxons slaughtered the fuck out of the survivors. Only the Welsh today would qualify as Arthur's subjects.
>>273448538The thing is that Iskandar doesn't care about that part. He feels he did a good enough job as a king so he has no regrets.
>>273448538>But Iskander's subjects DIDN'T know what to do when he was goneyou really don't know why Diadochi wars started, do you?He literally told them on his deathbed to fuck that hereditary shit and waiting for his 5yo son, and rather to do a tournament arc instead"Empire goes to the strongest"
>>273448538>Saber's country did much better after her.got invaded to fuck?
>>273446451LOL LMAOmonarchy > whatever yours is
>>273446716Based and Mengdepilled.
>>273446451Saberfags everyone.Narita even had to go out of his way to spoonfed you bitches about what the topic was really about and you're still doing this
Here's some of my opinions you never asked for:>Iskandar is the best character in Fate/Zero.>Fate/Zero looks more interesting on the surface.>Fate/Stay Night is better written.>The Fate route wasn't all that good and felt like a way to trick romance obsessed Otaku into getting invested in a story with more meat to it than girls.>Shirou is a really well written MC, regardless of if you like him or not.>Iskandar attracts a lot of shallow fatass retards who are only concerned with being strong and cool and BIG.>Same with Gilgamesh but on a more prettyboy spectrum.There is nothing wrong with preferring Fate/Zero over F/SN but at least have the balls to admit you don't like F/SN for shallow faggot reasons because whenever I see someone criticize F/SN it's for some really gay shit like "hurr the characters are too young and don't wear cool trenchcoats and use guns :(" get over it pansy.
>>273449215I agree with most of your points, but I dislike FSN due to a lack of consistency, and the fact that it's filled with many shallow characters outside the major ones. Shirou and co are fine, but Medea/Medusa/Cu etc were some one dimensional bores in the original VN. The fan disc Ataraxia was made to rectify that.
>>273448304Pretty much.But the protector enters the rethorical arena here pulling a Lancer and self defeating, so doesn't argue the role of the protector well.>>273448538More or less. The legacy of Alexander's Empire was kind of a big deal (Ptolomaics, Seleucids, Parthians, Macedonians, etc.)Some of Alexander's monarchies still existed 5 generations after (like the Ptolomaics and Parthians).Albeit there was a screwup due to induced lack of unity, but not as you are implying.
>>273446016FPBP
Gilgamesh and Alexander are retards but I believe them because I have daddy issues and will believe anything good looking men with convictions say.
>>273450611>but Medea/Medusa/Cu etc were some one dimensional boresThey are definitely NOT one dimensional by any stretch of the imagination. Especially not Medea.She is a victim turned villain in her original myth who has her final moments in the UBW route a chance to be a hero to save the life of the man she loves. A lot of her actions are self-serving and borderline hedonistic but she never crosses the treshhold to truly unforgivable. Even her Master says "draining some of their life? She should have been taking all of it." She had been leaving the people of Fuyuki weakened through draining their mana but hadn't been taking their lives. She is orchestrating a plan to take the Holy Grail in the most efficient way she can, so naturally she should be very forceful and ruthless, but in spite of this, she gives many characters several chances to join her willingly, like Archer and Shirou, even Rin she considered taking her as an apprentice. She WANTS to act the villain but hesitates in going all the way through with it. Ultimately she's just a lonely girl who wants happiness above all.
>>273450961Making the mother of all grail wars here, Nasu.
>>273449215I will never understand the dislike for the Fate route.>all the introduction to the Magic, Grail War and Servants>Saber's identity being hidden until the K I N O reveal of Excalibur>Archer's identity being a mystery until the very end>Shirou diving into Saber and meeting the dragon>dreaming about Saber's past>Caliburn asspull>8th Servant showing up out of nowhere>Arthur still alive>Saber getting pissed at Shirou on the bridge>Avalon reveal explaining why Shirou's injuries kept healing>"Can you see it King Arthur?"It was great.
>>273445995>saberfags
Totally very organic discussion!
>>273451020>Especially not Medea.Even the Tiger Dojo makes fun of her for being a bland character in F/SN. She's a cartoon villain who gets a lazy "pls pity me" moment at the very last second and only serves to pad out the first half of UBW.
>>273449215>Here's some of my opinions you never asked for:>>Iskandar is the best character in Fate/Zero.>>Fate/Zero looks more interesting on the surface.>>Fate/Stay Night is better written.>>The Fate route wasn't all that good and felt like a way to trick romance obsessed Otaku into getting invested in a story with more meat to it than girls.>>Shirou is a really well written MC, regardless of if you like him or not.>>Iskandar attracts a lot of shallow fatass retards who are only concerned with being strong and cool and BIG.>>Same with Gilgamesh but on a more prettyboy spectrum.Nothing but truth here.
>>273451317Fate route is OK but it's a shit romance because Saber and Shirou will never get along and constantly butt heads. They are too similar to each other in wanting to jump on the bomb to save someone else.
>>273446016other way around 2bh
>>273451317I just didn't like not knowing more about Shirou. Of course on a reread you can appreciate it more.
>>273451317Because Saber leaning into Shirou's retarded take of "being a meat shield is saving people" is the worst thing for him.
>>273451591>only serves to pad out the first half of UBW.Literally everything involved with Medea is a great parallel to Rin and Shirou's dynamic put to an extreme lens, highlights the roles of victim/hero/villain and the small threshold between them by reversing a lot of roles (the heroic Saber turned victim, hero Archer turned villain, victim Shirou becoming a hero and so on).
>>273451670They are both retards. That's why I love them.>>273451742What do you mean? >>273451778Saber is the last person who'd enable his suicidal behaviour. Even though she's guilty of the same thing. That's the point.
>>273451020>She is a victim turned villain in her original mythOkay. How exactly is this information conveyed in the VN?
Are Saberfags just perpetually seething about this scene?
>>273445995It's funny, the longer you stay with the Fate franchise the more you start understanding that every bad idea you initially blame other authors on were actually Nasu's ideas he forced on them all along. This applies to Fate/Zero too.
>>273446451Have you tried looking at history? kind kings are hated and overthrowed.
>>273446061Read Archetype Inception. It's absolutely dogshit.
>>273446451Saberkeks have 0 reading comprehension.
>>273452366Irony being, this scene, logically speaking, conveys the same message Shirou tells Saber, to not regret so much and move on, except in the Shirou's case it's a route-romance as the sugarized means of telling the message, the other is a bruti-sh one conversation between jholy grail war opponents in a ceasefire for negociations.>>273450961Erhm Saber self defeats herself in that debate. She appears as talking that her way of King had lots of problems that she is worried about so of course the two holy grail war opponents won't sugar coat things in explaining what in their logic could be the flaws.
>>273446863Saber was wrong because she regretted. Even SHE admitted she was a retard in Fate route because she shouldn't have feel regret at all.Iskandar only misunderstood the source of her regrets because he doesn't read minds and she was using her ideals as deflect.
>>273452276Listen man you gotta stop demanding a story spoonfed you even the most minute details and start putting some goddamn effort in. It's conveyed in her actions, her hesitance to fully take on the villain role. She sees villainy as a necessity, expressed through her actions, not as a particular innate character trait.
>>273447818>>273448538>>273448599>ArthurNot real.>kingdom of camelotNot real.NEVER bring this literal abo tribe folklore from literal britton subhuman natives against CHADKINGS ever again.
Saber isn't a king. She's an usurper. Even Garden of Avalon points out Morgan is the one born with proper kingship rights and the owner of Britain. Saber was basically handheld by Merlin and Vivian as a pet project when the Age of the fae was ending, When Vivian went schizo, she burned the kingdom she built and offed Saber and shipped her to Avalon without breaking a sweat. She's still chilling and fucking up people even to this day. Grey is her latest pet project.Most of the Round Table are due to Vivian/Morgan: she's either their biological mother, creator or their foster mother (Lancelot, making her responsible for Galahad). She's the one who gave them every blessing (the luck, skills like walking on water) and ALL their arsenal are truly Vivian's weapons she loaned to them. They all return to Vivian, the Avatar of Mystics, in proper Fate timeline.When Vivian became Fata Morgana, she effortlessly BTFO all of them and destroyed the kingdom. Saber was nothing but a pitiful pawn.Gil had agency and feats denying gods, but saber was literally carried by the fae. When they got tired of her, they killed her.
>>273452532That is literally why Iskandar argues for.
>>273452742To be fair, Gilgamesh while based on a real King has his rule embellished in an Epic, and Alexander wanted to be more of an Epic poem character like Aquiles or Odyssey rather than a historical figure.Saber's reign is based on a real rump state of post-rome colapse, celto-roman alliance against the saxons. See Battle of BadonOf course it's more of an Epic than an historical account, but well, you get the idea.
>>273452868Iskandar doesn't care if Saber is a virtuous martyr as long she isn't a fucking retard who is trying to change history because she regrets her path. Which was always a fucking bad thing and she admits being a fucking retard in Fate route and she doesn't have regrets as a king.He misunderstood her path was the one that made her suicidal, and feels bad for her. He has no issue what road she follows. in an early volume, he's the one open to different paths of kingship while she's acting like a stuck up bitch after he saved her life.
Ah my goddess. I’m not going to waste my time looking for the picture of it because I’m just going to get mad again
The difference between Gil and Saber is that Saber was a successful pawn and tool by the fae, while Gil was a failed tool by the gods. Saber had zero insight about the bigger picture while Gil did and accepted his end.Nasu's latest slop, OC3, basically says the planet's entire purpose is creating a prime species that would eventually space travel. Real fae like Memelin and Memegan are the parents of it, since its the extensions of the planet. Primal Murder is likely a weapon to off disappointing results.Saber was needed as transition king to strenghten the human order (Camelot is a representation for this in FGO) with Merlin and Vivian as her symbolic (true) parents. And when she wasn't needed anymore, Merlin fucked off (and felt bad about it) and Viviane became Memegan who offed her, destroyed Camelot and led the fae to the Far Side, which left room for the present prime species (humanity) to grow.Gilgamesh was created as similar thing but as a tool by the gods to keep their prime seats when they are NOT the chosen of the planet. That's why Enkidu who grew connections of it rebuked them and why Gil accepted he had to die for the sake of the future.Artoria was the most shortsighted among the kings who seemed completely fucking clueless about all this shit.
>>273452484Name 3 historical sources to back that up.No not some shitty youtube video or LOTGH quotes, real history.
>>273453174Wtf is this fanfic?
>>273453288>Be Marcus Aurelius>Write a bunch of cool philosophy>Your son is Commodus who destroys the golden age of the Roman Empire.
The Yujo panel is among the worst in manga history
>>273453904Marcus Aurelius philosophy wasn't about being a kind leader.He's more of a "philosopher king", but a "kind king" would've bonded much better with commudus.He was a good ruler and philosopher, but that's different from being a good father.
>>273446061Why does everyone talk like /dbs/?
>>273452702That's not it, my dude. Why exactly would you have a proper understanding of who Medea is UNLESS you knew her lore properly? The story does not address it within the confines of FSN. HA exists to do this for the servants the original VN neglected. That is my issue
>>273453288Charles I? What is more kind than returning England to the proper and true faith?
>>273454646Sakura summoned her without a catalyst meaning she's just like Sakura.I always found that to be quite informative.
>>273449215>>Iskandar is the best character in Fate/Zero.>>Iskandar attracts a lot of shallow fatass retards who are only concerned with being strong and cool and BIG.What depth am I missing?
>>273449215>Fate/Stay Night is better written.Stopped reading here.
>>273447174Showing ancient kings were nothing more than power hungry greedy retards who only thought of themselves. Arthur was the only king in that scene and she's a woman.
>>273445995The point was that no one is capable of understanding Artoria Pendragon despite the fact that she is very easy to understand.Even the knights of the round table realized post death that they were being beyond retarded and decided to throw their lot with the lion king despite the fact that they knew the lion king was not Artoria Pendragon and that they're not heading for a good end.
>>273451317It's not the content that bothers people it's the presentation. So much of the route exists in service of introducing the setting, and it's the shortest route on top of that as an introduction that we're left with a romance that's never actually developed and a plot that's largely villains getting introduced in rapid fire then getting taken out in one sword beam once the new power or character is introduced.
>>273454977Anon, the discussion is about Medea. Not Medusa.
>>273458453Gender to you seems more important than the points they presented.
>>273447090Rider's issue with her is that she doesn't just reject it (though there's that too) but she rejects all the people who followed her believing in it. To someone with a reality marble (symbolizing the very heart and core of their being and mind) that is based around a bond beyond space and time to call them to your side once again, it is the height of insult, she's actively spitting on their memories (when we also know that they still believed in her, too). That's what infuriates him. He doesn't mind different paths of kingship at all, he says that himself earlier and both he and Gil have disagreements. But he still acknowledges Gil as a king because Gil sticks to his guns in the argument. Saber is not just failing to show backbone, she's insulting everybody who believed in the ideals she had espoused.>>273448538His empire lasted about a decade, or at least until his son died (age of 14-15). Even then, the legacy of his achievements established the Hellenistic era that the world lived in for the next thousand years. Even the Roman era was built on the legacy he left behind.
>>273453349FGO lore from Ordeal Call 3.Also, Arcueid/Archetype Earth is the only thing that properly qualifies for the Moon Cancer class. Yes, BB is an imposter.
>>273447174>>273447329>>273458453Anime. Gilgamesh's answer was skipped in it. He tells it to AM. The king is simply the absolute authority. They're not supposed to bother with right or wrong. They decide and affirm how things are. To Gilgamesh, Saber is going about things ass backward and whining about it. If she thought living for the people was the way to rule then that is that. She had nothing to lament whether her kingdom survived or not. He laughed because she claimed an absolute position and still thought she went about things wrong.
>>273452590Iskandar also does not understand that Saber is not a true heroic spirit. Camelot may as well have been yesterday for her.
>>273446226I fucking love shit like that inject it into my veins
>>273453349>He doesn't know the loreLmao
>>273446226I unironically got hyped reading thatfucking CHUUNIkino
>>273452964>ESL talking about reading comprehension
>>273446451Look at any nation throughout history. Every great nation was created by a tyrant.
>>273460379In his defense, no one knows the name medea.Medusa is iconic.
>>273464604exactly my point. medea is not famous enough for readers to immediately understand her source of grief yet she is the midboss for the centerpiece of the VN. The story neglects many of the servants and they end up being lesser characters for it. HA is a cope addition to rectify this.
>>273445995Throw them into Avalon and they would either commit suicide or get killed after maximum a century or two.According to Nasu, Morgan is the best tardwrangler.
I miss the Japanese educational system schizo.
>>273465681Who?
>>273452786Nonsense headcanon.
>>273446016>one made a series well liked it became the most profitable IP in recent years>the other could only leech off said guy and other IP like kamen rider
>>273464673Because the point of the narrative is that she is a dark parallel to Rin and Kuzuki is a dark parallel to Shirou. You don't need to know Medea's myth to understand that.
>>273445995Zero is INFINTY * INFINITY times superior to the "original".Type Moon/FSN in general has some of hte worst world-building I have ever seen. Stupid. Idiotic. Just becoming worse the more you find out about the universe.I regret delving deeper into it.
>>273467250Anyone who thinks F/Z is good, let alone better than the original is a manchild.
>>273446226Where's the continuation?
>>273467298Yes, become sentiant starship gods, spirits of planets, retarded "classes", rules that are constantly broken on a whim, rainbow swords, earth defense lasers, ancient > modern, and constant asspulls are great writing/world building and definitely NOT a sign of meing a manchild.You have no standards, amoeba brain. None.No one sane can enjoy the Type Moon universe, it's just RETARDED TO THE MAX and only getting worse.Whish is a damn shame, because the basic elements are great. I wish I could erase my memories of reading deeper into the lore. It's just terrible.
>>273467393Imagine actually being a lorefag lmao. You get what you fucking deserve.
>>273446203How? I watched it and didn't think that at all
>>273467393>LoreshitI don't watch or read anything beyond the original Fates. Watching F/Z itself was a mistake.
>>273446226>this is bad because...>it's just bad ok?
