>>151359503
God created pharaoh

>>151359503
This is kind of a >>>/x/ question honestly.

>>151359503
He did.

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>>151359555
He tanked the red sea at the end

>>151359503
Where do you think the jews got their love of humiliation rituals from? Their God.

>>151359503
When you fight with an animal, you reduce yourself to the level of the animal.

>>151359503
Keep in mind that the Moses story is essentially just the Sargon birth legend blended together with the Ra-Horakhty myth, and then slapped on top of what may have been actual history (see Moses and Monotheism by Freud).

From my understanding, God wouldn't just outright smite the Pharaoh (even though in Jewish folklore, he rolled up to Egypt while riding an angel and basically did a divine drive-by) because the whole point was to spiritually embarass the Egyptian pantheon which included the Pharaoh (being descended from the Gods). Read Jewish midrash, it basically "canonizes" how the Jewish God is interpreted in Gnosticism. He is one big jerk.

>>151359503
God was the pharaoh

>>151359503
to be a demonstration that even those who choose to oppose god are still part of his plan. The Heebs where supposed to be a nation of holy men, they needed first hand knowledge of both his place above all other deities, and also evil from his mortal enemies.

>>151359503
Because each of the plagues are for showing YHWH being better than the egyptian god of that particular field.
He robs the pharaoh of agency so he can finish his own big show number.

His punishment had to be made more severe

God wanted to kill more people.

>>151359503
Well, for starters the heebs never were slaves of Egypt, probably they never lived there in the first place.

I suppose the answer is that the pharaoh had to be swayed to free the slaves because if he just killed him, the next pharaoh would just do the same thing?

I don't actually remember the movie anymore though so i might be stupid

Next Pharoh would have very well killed all the jews

>>151359503
>Theology thread
Fuck yeah
>>151359546
Usually these types of threads are better than on /x/

>>151359680
Why is God so MEAN?

>>151360590
He's the composite of multiple Canaanite deities, including but not limited to

>Yahweh the war god
>Baal
>El, the chief patriarch
>Asherah, Astarte, etc

Volcano/metallurgy god + Dragon god + Storm god + Sun god + Fertility god + Donkey god + Desert god = Yahweh

It was assumed that God started off as just Yahweh who then assimilated the other gods, but it was recently discovered that Yahweh means "Lord" in the same way that Baal does. It's a title. There were MULTIPLE Yahwehs that got merged into a single one.

>>151360667
If I remember correctly, Allah also started off the same way, and there parts in the original Quran that acknowledge the other gods in the region. They were absorbed at a later time, and the verses that mention them were removed. they’re referred to as the Satanic verses.

>>151359659
actually he GIVES him agency
By threatening him with plagues that even end in death, he'd be FORCING pharaoh to do what he wants, at least bullying
But by hardening his heart, he's forcing Pharaoh not to give in ~until he genuinely wants to.~
He made him stick to his guns, which is the most agency you can have. And that's the point. Any god can bully you, it takes your fucking FATHER to make you realize what you did was wrong.

>>151360667
you do realize the kinds of people pushing this shit are the most insufferable, right? there's no science to it, just spite and massive bias

also no, Yahweh means 'i am / was / will be'. he even goes on to say "tell them Ehyeh sent you" which is the same thing in third person. "he is / was / will be"
That didn't stick though, they continued calling him by the first person, and presumably always did before. I have been unable to figure out if there was such a thing as the second-person voice in old Hebrew.

>>151359859
could you imagine... a world like that...

>>151359531
nope

>>151359503
because at this stage god has only just started calling himself Yahweh, representing an early syncretion of multiple broadly-related pantheons and traditions into a single monotheistic tradition (this had been tried in Egypt during the Amarna period and failed spectacularly; there's some irony here and perhaps some echoing, competing traditions finding and losing favor over centuries if we consider the Israelite narrative to be an extension of the Hyksos cults of northern Egypt centuries before, but Exodus was written long after the Hyksos, most likely in the 8th or 9th century BCE at the earliest, by someone who had likely never even read about Egypt in any detail - they didn't know about crocodiles).

the purpose of the syncretism was to relegate various cult leaders within the growing political entity of bronze age israel to the status of outsiders at worst (reducing their power to nothing or granting an "outsider" status to those who still followed their teachings, "othering" them, in short) while conferring a greater social unity on the various disparate peoples of that group as a whole; everybody gets to keep "their" god, who is typically the highest god of their pantheon - the mountain god, the sun god, the lightning/storm god, etc - and these all become "god", referred to in Exodus for the first time by a single name, YHWH.

but even YHWH continues to accept the existence and power of other gods - particularly those of other cultures, whose worship is expressly forbidden

Egypt by this time had over 9000 gods across dozens of eras of pantheons, many of whom shared little more than names with their predecessors of 1000 years earlier; like Baal being used as a false god in the OT, but also as another name for YHWH, this process of syncretism would continue for a millennium

The cast for Prince of Egypt is fucking insane

if you look at jewish nationalist cope for being raped through the lense of greek rationalism it doesn't make a lot of sense. why didn't jesus just convert to greek paganism

>>151360733
>there's no science to it, just spite and massive bias

there's no science to any of this, other than textual analysis

where competing names for god are used in different texts, particularly where those texts have known antecedents in separate cultures, the only possible reason for the use of those names is syncretism

there's no single monotheistic faith in deep time that had all the answers, it's all made up shit that bronze age king-priests came up with to justify transition from a hunter-gather-sedentary lifestyle to an agriculture-palace-economy lifestyle

>>151361361
jews 2000 years ago were primarily Hellenic, they pretty much had converted

>god
Begone, heathen!

>BY THE POWER OF RAH

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>>151361409
>you're playing with the big guys now

>>151361417
>playing with the, playing with the playing with the, playing with the BIG GUYS NOW

For you, I will say I love this movie

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Thoughts on the spiritual sequel?

>>151359612
>Keep in mind that the Moses story is essentially just the Sargon birth legend blended together with the Ra-Horakhty myth, and then slapped on top of what may have been actual history
An interesting theory but not outright proven.
>>151359722
Yes they did. They were among many types of slaves but were slaves regardless.

>>151360667
Again this has never been proven as it is just as possible thag the semitic tribes were being assimulated into Canite culture which is outlined in things such as the old testament.

>>151359503
Do you know how important scripture is? To history, to culture, to literature, to society? Even just that section of Exodus, massively important. If things happened much differently, we'd live in a vastly different world, with vastly different philosophies.
Picture a world where, instead of a story about toiling under injustice until God provided a leader and a way out, people grew up with a story where He just killed the evil bastard for you. No resilience or camaraderie or redemption of a leader earning your trust, just waiting for a lightning bolt to strike your ruler dead and then suffering in the desert with his bro. What kind of history do you think that would create?

>>151361583
>imagine a story where you're the raped
I can't i'm not jewish

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>>151361605
>i'm not jewish
Who knows anon, you might be one the lost 12...

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God needed to destroy all other religions to establish himself as THE God. So he had to kill all a shitload of Egyptians im horrible ways to shatter their faith and weaken their gods. I assume he didnt want to reveal too much of his own powers because there were other gods out there who were still threats.

>>151361625
Entities maybe, but gods? That is a different definition. From a spiritual or metaphysical standpoint it doesn't make too much sense for multiple gods to exist

>>151361638
multiple imperfect gods makes much more logical "sense" than a moralistic perfect being that creates an imperfect world just to have fun playing the sims and torturing them (gnosticism was created to try and cope with this abrahamic schizophrenia)

>>151361672
If a universe is created it is perfect by the very nature of the confines it was made. There is nothing else to compare it to for what a perfect model would be. Multiple gods makes no sense because a god is a creator and origin point and with it knowledge. For a god to rely on other created gods when itself already created reality therefore makes no sense and gnosticism is even more schizophrenic logically than abrahamic systems.

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>>151361638
Anything that achieves worship by humans could be viewes as a god. Thats why christianity imposed strict rules on how to properly venerate beings seperate from God.

>>151359503
You know, Job would make a good animated movie. But if we're talking about New Testament? I think Paul the Apostle deserves a movie, he's basically the best apostle.

>>151361707
>gnosticism is even more schizophrenic
That's what I said. The contradiction is bound to generate this type of thing. Who is God's God? God?

>>151361736
I suppose if you divorce the aspect of creator from the title that makes sense, but then what would you call the being reaponsible for the birth of other gods? They had to have been made by something esle.

>>151361742
You said abrahamic systems were schizophrenic so I thought you infered gnosticism was not in relation, my bad

>>151361738
>I think Paul the Apostle deserves a movie, he's basically the best apostle
Saul is a pretty interesting guy and has a natural character arc from merciless killer of christians to their advocate and champion. It's like hunchback of notre dame but Frollo actually slowly changes for the better

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>>151361753
Perhaps they were birthed from the primordial event that birthed the universe itself. They could even be tied to concepts themselves. We dont even know if they percieve time as we do. It is the nature of the divine to be mysterious.

>>151361583
seems as equally valid as sitting on your ass and waiting for a savior.
>>151359503
gods of egypt protected him but they were weak so they could not block Gods mind control.
>>151359612
archaeology does not support this description of events so I doubt it was "actual histroy"

>>151359823
god hardened pharaoh's heart. It was not about ending slavery in general but Jewish slaves. God also wanted to bully the jews some more because if he had killed all their enemies they could have just lived in Egypt instead of being lost in sands for 40 years.
>>151359859
Why would not god stop him too?

>>151361784
>Perhaps they were birthed from the primordial event that birthed the universe itself. They could even be tied to concepts themselves
But that still begs the question of intelligent design with the event. The other issue is that if we define God'ms by concepts then you need to address the metaphysics that come with that. The metaphysical plane must have come somewhere for us to draw conception and knowledge from. If they were entities it would make sense as they embody concepts that are then reflected back into the material plane, but the nature and existence of knowledge for them to exist in has to also be addressed in some way. What founded the logic of conception and abstraction, the logos?

>>151360590
Because his ego demands worship and kind gods are like effects of good taxation. Invisible until gone

>>151361810
In the old testament the context of will is not the same in the modern vernacular. Will in the old testament context actually translates to allow from a modern understanding. God allowed his heart to be hardened.

>>151360721
I would have you know that my father was a retard and a failure in life.
>He made him stick to his guns
being forced to be stubborn is not the same as agency. agency is having the option to go down a different path

>>151361834
>being forced to be stubborn is not the same as agency
See >>151361829

>>151361672
Its worse as a tool of control because its a lot easier to have a schism when followers of poseidon start saying Ares likes it up the ass and athena gives BJs to homeless behind macdonalds.

>>151359503
He didn't want to spill his popcorn

>>151361736
*catholicism. for a lot of brands of christianity there is only God and he has no need for your church and "prosperity gospel"

>>151361872
The more you look at them the more pagan they seem to be

>>151361493
I still liked it, but it wasn't as epic as Prince of Egypt.
My favorite part was the dream sequence with the sickly plant/cows eating the healthy plant/cows

According to my algorithm influenced biblical academic binges. It's just a revenge fantasy.

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It always bothered me that the source material made absolutely no mention of the giant pyramids in the background.

>>151361872
There are Christians who worship saints as gods? Doesnt that go against the ten commandment?

>>151361967
That was before the aliens arrived

>>151361985
Yes.

>>151361340
Interesting position but it could use some citations. Prefereably in the form of a video documentary.

>>151361997
This, we need the approved consensus

>>151359503
Demiurge isn't God

>>151361551
No evidence the small hats were slaves

>>151362117
Except there is with the Hyskos.

>>151362110
Good thing gnosticism is baloney then!

No matter how you interpret the hardening of Pharaohs heart, he had his perception and cognition altered by God. His free will was compromised. It's the same as saying

>Woah, officer, she was only drunk, it's not like I gave her a roofie!

Its a difference without a distinction.

>>151359503
Then another Pharaoh would do the same to another tribe. God was making a point that you really don't want to have the law where the most holy and powerful is the lord of life and death.

So God followed the Egyptian law to its conclusion. Egyptians ended up giving gold to Hebrews when they were leaving, so it can be assumed that only loyalists and Pharaoh had lost their first born while everyone else had marked their doors

>>151362240
New Testament explains it

Your conscience is the voice of God. But when you keep ignoring it God will stop talking to you and you will only pursue personal survival and lust for power

Pharaoh couldn't give up because he'd be admitting he never had a right to be a lord of life and death in the first place. And that would have resulted in Egypt wanting his head for every past abuse of power

>>151359585
Spiritual death, you wouldn't understand
>>151360590
Many people will cope and cry and piss themselves wet with impotent rage at this but the truth is that He wanted to make an example out of pharoah to the ancient israelites, He showed that whoredom to false gods could not stop egypt from His will. He is the one and only true master of this universe, and no amount of magick or spellcasting can save you, should He decide you a real threat.

He can destroy any army on earth, kill any child in their cradle, pepper the land with sickness and famine in an instant, and level entire nations with fire and ice. You cannot win against Him on any field, and while an ass would probably think "what a jerk", the correct answer is of course, "whatever you say, my Lord, thank you for not doing that to me."

He is indeed a loving God, but like many stories in the Bible, he was given a *perfect* target to flex his muscles.

the old testament god is basically a huge petty cunt in a BPD relationship with the "chosen" people

>>151362240
>No matter how you interpret the hardening of Pharaohs heart, he had his perception and cognition altered by God
Except it wasn't...

>>151362284
The new testament also has Paul outright supporting the idea of predestination, which shits all over free will.

>>151359503
Because God redeems.
Ramesses II went on to become one of the greatest pharaohs of all Egypt, achieving victory in a dozen wars, reigning long into old age and presiding over an era of vast prosperity. He didn't need the hebrew slaves after all. God humbled him and made him a better man, in the end.

>>151362410
No it doesn't, this has been talked about before. God sees all possible outcomes but you are free to choose which outcome. Just because he knows your choice does not mean you can't make it willingly.

>be god
>humanity has it fucked itself over because you gave them free choice
>forsee some old guy as being good enough to pave the way to redeeming mankind out of the hole they dig themselves
>allow his bloodline to carry your teachings
>like the rest of the humanity they suck at being pious but they are integeral for the grander plan
>they get enslaved by some pharoh which poses a stumbling block
>pick a former official of his court to act as a messenger as well as a guide to the rest of the hebrews
>you allow the pharoh free choice, even though you know that through his free will he will refuse
>send an act of yourself to demonstrate your power
>every single time the smug bastard continues to argue against your will as the creator through his own free will in the face of divine suffering

>>151362423
But Ramesses II's holdings expanded well into Palestine. He also ruled for 66 years so the return of the Hebrews into Palestine as well as they're genocides of the people there would have been noted by Egyptian authorities.

>>151362464
Maybe it was. We don't have complete documents of all history.

>>151361625
>>151361736
This thing is cool as fuck

>>151362494
iirc it's dedicated to a saint who was such a good orator that he was nicknamed the gold-mouthed, thus the dedication looking like that

>>151362423
>Because God redeems
Now you put this mental image in my mind of Jesus walking away from Satan's temptations and Satan going "Saar! Do not reddem the mankind, saar! DO NOT REDEEEEEM! DO NOT REDEEEEEEEEM!"

why'd the movie stop at the golden calf?

>>151362681
The real problem with Satanism is that we portray Satan as either Lucifer (6’4” Aryan chad with a voice like honeyed nectar) or this metal as fuck goat demon instead of an angry dal*t with a thick Indian accent.

>>151359503
He effectively did, He just wanted to make it obvious who was responsible for doing so.

>>151360667
Baal means Lord, I'v heard a pretty convincing argument that Israelites were using Baal the same way Adonai or Elohim was used meaning the accusation of Baal worship in Kings is exaggerated to being that of a different god instead of just different praxis of worshipping the same God.

>>151360667
>>151363194
And fact I actually remember another paper making the argument that YHWH was always meant of the personal name of a singular diety, so YHWH of Samaria is the same YHWH of Teman.

>>151363224
Which brings mind another paper with the wild claim that Yahwism was not just being practiced by just the judeans and israelites and that the God-Fearers were more widespread than previously thought

>>151360590
https://youtu.be/ESCIRU5Oiis?si=ZNlQde4QjRnTC3sO

>>151359503
Puny god

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Antz is better

>>151360721
If he was ready to surrender than making him unable to surrender is more so than a threat of violence

>>151361605
Anon if you’re Christian your staple theology revolves around a man who was raped to death and how awesome he was for letting that happen

>>151363346
I do find it funny how jewish that film is

>>151362431
That's silly. If that's the case, I know the Powerball numbers until they get rolled.

>>151361997
>>151362016
or you guys could just learn to read and stop listening to people who've never been near an academic library in their lives but have a payme channel

>>151363563
Ants and bees both being used by jewish films where the jewish bugs are used as a stand-in for mob mentality is quite funny

>>151359503
Because Old Testament God is all about smite AND humiliation.

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Because YHWH is the universe. Like, the entirety of it. He is you, He is me, He is the electricity driving 4chan. If you have a cancer cell, in your body, it's REALLY hard to get that one cell in your body. You know it's there and you know it's rotting you, but how the hell are you gonna get it? Moses is a white blood cell that is there to take out the cancer cell. But the white blood cell has to be told what to look for for a cancer cell.

This isn't an exact analogy but God IS everything ("YHWH translates to "I Am", which is the answer He gave Moses when asked for His name. Imagine if you managed to talk to one of your cells, and it asked you what cell are you? You would answer "I'm not a cell. I'm... Everything. I AM.") and it's difficult for God to make change on a granular scale. God doesn't even have time the way we do. This is why lesser seraphim are needed, like the Metatron, who is used to speak to us REALLY lower life forms.

On a different note, this is why God decided to incarnate himself as Jesus. God needed to live as we do to understand us, because otherwise, He would look at us like "WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS SHIT". After living as a poor boy who died a horrible death, He was able to go "Ohhhhh, that's why those idiots do that. Okay."

>>151363500
He will come back and rape all the sinners so it's ok

I'm be honest, I still not quite sure how Christians tie old and new testament god together. The old one acts like Zeus and the new one acts like Mr. Rogers

>>151359503
The volcano demon wasn't strong enough. It had to use underhanded jewish tactics

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>>151364424
Because being Jesus was a learning experience for Him. He understands why we do the stuff we do now. He is a lot more loving once He understands what it is to be the lowest of us, and can understand why we do some of the stuff we do. God didn't even experience time prior to Jesus, how could He ever hope to fully understand us and the things we do?

>>151359503
>Let my people go
God was giving Pharaoh multiple chances to comply, demonstrating patience and mercy. If God just killed him then God wouldn't be much better than Pharaoh.

>>151364528
Holy Heresy Batman!

>>151364528
He already knew because he's omniscient. He knows more about being human than humans do.

>>151364844
>>151364971
God is a timeless creature with no form. Yes, I understand the Church teaches us that "God knows everything" which is like... yeah, okay, God KNOWS everything. He knows you lifted your hand last Tuesday at 2:47 PM. He knows you will stop living at 7:47 AM on December 10, 2035. He knows you did XYZ at such and such time because he can see it. He IS everything at all times all at once.

But does he know why kids love cinnamon toast crunch? Does he know why a painter looks at the falling leaves and thinks this would be a beautiful piece of art? Does he know why we worry about the future? To Him, everything is already planned and done. Why would you worry? No, He would not have and idea why this is.

Except that he came down and WAS one of us. He experienced the beauty of a warm summer's evening. He had the shits real bad one day. He loved his mommy. He got a cut on his knee and needed a boo-boo kiss. He cut his hand while his surrogate father taught him woodworking. He Was loved by many, then scorned, hated, whipped and killed.

God only knows of love, hate, fear and beauty because he was one of us. WE taught HIM this, because he saw it so fit to come down and walk among us. And he didn't come down as a king, because that is not a fair way to judge us. A fair way would be to come down as the most unlucky person in the world (born in a stable next to animal shit, had to run from the law at the ripe old age of 4 hours, raised in hiding, come back only to be tortured to death), and use that knowledge to judge us.

God loved us SO MUCH that he BECAME us as the only way to judge someone is to walk a mile in their shoes.

>>151364424
>The old one acts like Zeus and the new one acts like Mr. Rogers
Humans before Christ were incapeble of obtaining Grace and as a result they were pretty fucking evil. So God's methods had to be different in trying to wrangle humanity together in one piece while he builds the lineage to give birth to Christ to give humanity the ability to obtain Grace. The entirety of the old testament is in effect God trying to create the ancestry of Christ for mankind's salvation while mankind every step of the way does counter intuitive bullshit.

>>151365030
>God only knows of love, hate, fear and beauty because he was one of us.
This is literally just head cannon. God has always known things such as love or hate. The trinity and godhead had always existed before the time of Christ but Christ needed to be born physically to fulfill the prophercy to redeem mankind from sin.

>>151365139
Time doesn't exist for God. Lessons learned while Jesus would echo back to the past. He knows these things because He was Jesus. God knows of love because he was Jesus and experienced it, but He was ALWAYS Jesus, because time isn't real for Him.

This negates my point I made earlier about why he is different in the old testament versus the new testament, though, so I don't know.

>>151365139
>>151365185
Also, secondarily
>Christ needed to be born physically to fulfill the prophercy to redeem mankind from sin.
Why would Christ living, dying etc. save us from sin? Except that him doing that teaches him ABOUT sin and ALLOWS Him to forgive us and judge us properly.

If he didn't come down to be one of us, He would just go "YOU DISOBEYED ME ONCE, THIS IS SIN, TO THE WASTE BASKET YOU GO". Instead, He came down, lived and died horrifically, so now He can properly judge when the judgement time comes.

Therefore, Jesus dying saved us from our sins damning us for eternity.

>>151365185
>>151365239
Anon, I get it makes sense narrative wise as a story for you but that isn't how it worked. Sin was eternal, the only way to allow mankind to be free from it was with an infinitely more valuable sacrifice of God himself in the flesh of man.

>>151365185
>>151365239
In addition if God was incapble of love or compassion he would have never paved the way for Christ and mankinds redemption to begin with

>>151365342
Why would God dying do anything? What did Him being Jesus change? What are the mechanics of sin on a universal scale, and why would the death of God's avatar do anything about that?

>>151365415
Because sin is the knowledge and capacity to do evil. The inner mechanism that we were born with since the fall of the garden of eden. In OT we could not overcome sin, only ask for forgiveness by demonstrating a desire to be free from it by sacrificing valuable lifestock to the lord in hopes of being forgiven for sin and transferring our misdeeds to the animal. This mechanism translated to Christ with his sacrifice in turn, as God is all that is good his sacrificing of himself and taking on sin the of mankind provided a bridge for man to overcome that mechanism inside of us from birth: Grace.

It's fairly simple.

>>151361182
Jews from the OT and modern day Jews have no relation. They’re just Polacks larping as Jews

>>151365513
What kind of sacrifice is it to make himself a body then kill it? It's not doing anything for anyone if I buy a car and crash it. Why is Jesus being alive important to that? Why did he have to be born? Why couldn't he have just made himself a fully adult body, came down from heaven, killed his body and had the whole thing done and over with in 20 minutes?

>>151365612
>Why is Jesus being alive important to that? Why did he have to be born?
Do you want me to get into metaphysics? Because this is where we get into metaphysics and I don't think anyone in this thread wants to go down that path.

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>>151365893
I do. I am having a lot of fun in this conversation. I love talking theology. Also, no one else is here, anon. Everyone left once two schizos started conversing lol.

So, I feel like we're saying the same things, anon, but you're saying it from a staunchly "the church taught me X and it is X" whereas I'm saying the logistics of it.

God found us interesting as we were a part of him that could think (free will). That's not really common. He took interest in Him, and got angry when we disobeyed Him for the first time. He judged us harshly for disobeying him (God's anger in this being Original Sin). He continued to try and tell us the right way to be, and we kept fucking up, because we're only human, but God didn't UNDERSTAND us, because we are little weird dudes that experience time. But, he loves us. So eventually, He sends Himself down to understand us, has a horrible existence, then dies horribly. It is through that death that He, God, the end all be all judge of everything, is able to UNDERSTAND why we sin, because he was tempted in the dessert, he lived, died and was burried. The "Original Sin" (which is God's non-understanding of us) is completely destroyed by the life death and resurrection. He is now able to forgive us for sin, if we're truly sorry, because He lived it.

I am saying "God loved us so much that he sent down his only Son. Through Jesus' life, death and resurrection, our lives have been saved from sin and the eternal hellfire that comes with it." Is that not what you're saying? Except in your version of the story, what is there to sacrifice? God came down to sacrifice himself to himself because we have free will and COULD sin. In this, God came down to sacrifice himself to us so that he could forgive us. We don't sin any less. Man and its penchant for sin has not changed. God has changed, for the first and only time ever. He became us, because he loved us THAT much.