Here's an example: I don't like when they change Batman's origin story so that the murder of the Wayne's was a hitjob instead of a mugging. People think that it makes it "more meaningful" or they want there to be a mystery behind their deaths that Bruce has to solve. But I think it being a random senseless act of violence works much better. I think it's kinda cool that because the impulsive act of a random criminal that anybody could have been a victim of ended up creating the Gotham underworlds greatest enemy
>>154080538how many adaptations did this? the Telltale game and The Batman?
>>154080584Batman Begins sort of does that since IIRC Joe Chill was on trial for Mafia connections but I don't remember if he got involved with them before or after he killed Bruce's parents.
>>154080584NTA but i didn't mind Telltale doing it since they were clearly doing their own thing with how they made Joker and some of the other characters
>>154080538>I don't like when they change Batman's origin story so that the murder of the Wayne's was a hitjob instead of a mugging.I love bringing this up, but this is a very early borderline retcon(it's more like an elaboration to the existing story than a change), written by Bill Finger himself.It was canon for decades but not particularly focused on, retconned away after Crisis along with Joe Chill when they wanted to lean into it being a random crime , and bought back as a possibly thing in the 2000's under Brubaker, which is why I suspect it started popping up again.
>>154080538arkham asylum's harley quinn desgin. I don't hate it and even think it's pretty hot still but it lead to people in the future to completely ignore her previous designs for more and more generic bimbo girl looks.
>>154080538I think there are several reasons for this. Sometimes it is the adaptation media short hand. How do you connect the origin story or displaced parts of the narrative to the overall plot? Batman (1989) makes the gunman the Joker to do this. I think The Batman (2022) connects Falcone to his father and his parent's death is potentially connected to this situation although this is ambigious.The other thing is that comics are built on driving down; the origin story, the secret history, the connections, the soap opera drama, the gimmicks, shared universes. the twists and turns. The Court of Owls storyline in the New 52 was originally a Dick Grayson Batman story later adapted to Bruce. (This takes away a lot from the plot.) But this ends up implying: >Batman didn't do much as Gotham City was never his as the Court were just biding their time. >It implies that Grayson Flying Circus was used to recruit Talons and this is potentially what could have happened to Dick. >Lincoln Marsh claiming to be Bruce's half brother or whatever it was. It is all part of this new revelation, secret history/conspiracy storyline that recontextualises things and robs narratives of randomness or any kind of grounded storytelling. You get something like Absolute Batman which straight up implies he was created as a joke by the Joker although this plot is ongoing. This also reminds me of Ultimate universe, another alt universe, connecting everything to the Super Soldier Serum.>>154080602You're misremebering. Joe Chill in Begins was a random person but he was let out early because I believe he testified against the mob because of stuff he heard in prison. Bruce was going to kill him until a mob hitman got there first, robbing him of the kill.
>>154080627I don't like how they made Joker either personally
>>154080636It being a random killing is still better.Also I don't like Jor El knowing that Kal would be superhuman on Earth, ot having time for any elaborate plan besides, "Get my son somewhere safe" this might be splitting some hairs though.
I hate any kind of stupid shit where the Wayne's were killed deliberately, but what I also can't fucking stand is when Bruce has some kind of Batman-like ancestor
>>154080538I hate when Jonathan Kent is dead. Clark already lost his whole planet and one dad let the guy keep Pa. Admittedly though it's less of a problem recently
I really hate the:>Heroes are the problem for escalating the situation! Nolan Batman does it at the end of Batman Begins, Gordon saying we wear body armor, thugs start using armor piercing bullets etc. Captain America Civil War has Vision straight up say since the first appearance of Iron Man, world ending events have multiplied. I don't think this is good commentary on the existence of superheroes and seems to imply their very presence causes bad things to happen.
>>154080666batman can be anyonebut it's bruce wayne and his ancestors, who may or may not be just him traveled back in timeand also le world greatest immortal crimelord 3's daughter wants to breed him because muh geneticsgenetic recombination is, in reality, a giant bitch
>>154080727soon they'll be blaming god for being evil or somethingand the writers wont realize this is in actuality them
>>154080675Again not really an adaptation exclusive thing,the Kents were considered long dead when Superman was an adult.The adaptation change would be Ma Kent living
>>154080727>Heroes are the problem for escalating the situation!This is the fruit of a very post modernist point of view.Notice in all the big superhero deconstruction supervillvillians are either non existent or neutered to the point of being harmless.
>>154080751I mean if you want to go right to the root of the matter, yeah.
>>154080781alan moore was a mistake
>>154080727>I have a question for you: before my arrival, this city was drowning under a tide of filth. Have you ever considered that this is all your fault? Your presence creates these animals. Like germs, they spread. You created the environment that allowed the germ to mutate, to become stronger. Look at the Joker. Would he even exist if not for you? It must be depressing. All your sacrifices and yet, you are the one to blame. batbros... i think he got us...
>>154080727Didn't this start with Long Halloween?
>>154080819i really can't stand post modernism>society has a lot of problems>we'd have no problems if society didn't exist anymore :DDDDDD
>>154080837It is literally the rejection of truth and facts. I have no fucking idea how it's caught on. People really are that retarded.
>>154080727>>154080781I want to do something with the concept that, with all heroes having at least 2 or 3 villains in their rogues gallery, there's more /villains/ than heroes.So it's less like heroes are the reason people become villains, and more like he heroes we get are the vanguard against the wave of people who get powers and decide to use them for selfish reasons or evil.
>>154080781>supervillvilliansFor me a big problem is people want villains to be "deep". >Magneto is a Holocaust survivor, people think that is excellent character building, the villain with a backstory or a point you can understand.>The villain has a point becomes a big thing in comics but you still need a third act fight.>So the villain has a point but at the end the villain inevitably goes too far to create the conditions for a fight.>People politicise this as "neo-liberal status quo" when in reality it is more "we need an excuse for a fight".A big example of this in adaptations is shit like Falcon and the Winter Soldier. A group of people with super soldier serum are upset at the conditions of the world post-Endgame and preferred the Thanos snap. Originally the plot line had them release a virus to kill people (the third act "go too far" moment). This plotline was neutered due to COVID and instead they wanted to kill the world council so Sam Wilson gave a big speech about them doing better. That's another thing, resolving situations with a word but still needing to justify a fight. We're supposed to believe Sam Wilson made a difference just chatting with them. But we still needed a fight.>>154080835You could argue that The Long Halloween has the ambiguity of the old crime families being replaced by the new crazy villains in a form of displacement because of the conditions of Gotham created by the situation. At a stretch. It is still the origin story problem of, stuffing a bunch of villains and shit in and connecting villains to the heroes to make the plot neater.
>>154080538I think Batman shouldn't be able to jump between planetoids within the same solar system
>>154080869>So it's less like heroes are the reason people become villains, and more like he heroes we get are the vanguard against the wave of people who get powers and decide to use them for selfish reasons or evil.I may be misrembering but didn't Dakota Verse do this sorta? Bunch of people got powers because of radioactive tear gas, so most people become villains because they were gang members etc but then we got Static.
>>154080727Batman Begins doesn't do it, Gordon is specifically talking about the police force and how criminals upgrade with them, basically conforming that an entity like Batman is needed.
>>154080835I don't think it started anywhere specifically. I think it has its origins in the DNA of a bunch of books where the hero creates the problem. Look at The Killing Joke. The Joker dressed as Red Hood falls in a vat of acid in part because Batman appeared, thus partly making Batman responsible for his creation. Connecting heroes with the villains creates the problem. But it is done for obvious plot reasons of making tight narratives. In old comics you'd often just get "guy discovers gimmick, guess I'll rob a bank now".
>>154080873>You could argue that The Long Halloween has the ambiguity of the old crime families being replaced by the new crazy villains in a form of displacement because of the conditions of Gotham created by the situation. I liked the way spectacular spider man, the show, did itSpidey was too good, so they tried making gadgets to kill him. This created his first villains, who gradually eat up the crime they were meant to distract Spider-Man from, leading into Gangland, one of the best episodes of all time. Super criminals, oldschool criminals, and neo-corporate criminals all in one place.
>>154080910>Batman Begins doesn't do it, Gordon is specifically talking about the police force and how criminals upgrade with them, basically conforming that an entity like Batman is needed.You're objectively wrong. Gordon literally says "Man wears a mask and dresses like a bat" then pulls out the Joker card, implying Joker appearing is a result of the Batman. Here is the scene: https://youtu.be/CkeTj_5qDhw
>>154080901>I may be misrembering but didn't Dakota Verse do this sorta?I was actually thinking of Static when writing that, too, come to think of it. But that's more tying it to a single event than the idea that most people when given powers or abilities would choose to be selfish with them with heroes being the exceptional few.
>>154080869I'm setting aside some writing time next month for my Supervillains but the Sopranos concept.Their structure, how they deal with territorial disputes, civilian family members, "rob a bank" villians vs "take over the world" villians vs "destroy the world" villians.I have a main outline ad some characters descriptions.
>>154080869Isn't this what Worm did? Most people who got powers went evil, the ones who didn't became "heroes" and work for the government. Which i thought was a fun play on how rogue's galleries work.For me, i think i'm gonna revitalize an old comic i wanted to make with this similar but mostly unimportant """lore""" point, if 10 people got superpowers 1 tends to go do-gooder vigilante, 3 turn to crime or exploit their powers, 7 have such meagre powers that they live normal lives or use their powers to strengthen mundane careers. Of the 4 people who play the cape/mask game it tends to be only one or two who actually makes a career out of it. The others (especially the villains) either give up, get caught, or bite it
>>154080947I like how Batman and Gordon don't take him that seriously in this scene when he eventually becomes such a threat to Gotham he is considered a terrorist.
>>154081007*6 i meant 6, i increased it from 2 to 3 to make the poo
Has there ever been a story where the supervillains came first and created the superheroes?
>>154081016-l bigger
>>154080931It really doesn't, as such a line of thinking would indicate that Joker has zero self-drive and only exists in a purely reactionary state determined by the actions of Batman. It'd be a bit like saying someone is responsible for being harassed by a crazed stalker because they left their house for work.>>154080947That doesn't make Batman responsible for the Joker, that makes Joker an attention whore.
>>154081022The First Hero comes to mind, kind of a lame comic but it was a neat idea. I'm thinking of another one, i had one in the back of my head but i forgot about it.
Batman Begins is really fucking odd when you think about it:>Gotham is shit, corrupt, full of criminals.>Bruce's parents are murdered.>Bruce trains with the League of Shadows.>The League of Shadows is targetting Gotham and wants to use Bruce but he refuses because he won't kill. >Ras implies they could infiltrate all of Gotham because of how corrupt the city is.>They target cities as they become too big, decadent etc.>But Ras also says they used economics to cripple Gotham as a new weapon (in the past they did things like fill ships with plague rats etc).>So, was Gotham always shit and League of Shadows made it worse and then used the corruption to do their plans? Or did the League of Shadows make Gotham shit?>They pretty much state it was the former, but still, they used economics to make the situation worse, almost like justifying their philosophy to target a place even though they helped make the situation worse.
>>154081036>Joker has zero self-drive and only exists in a purely reactionary state determined by the actions of BatmanThat has legit been how Joker has been written for like 25 years now, he has no existence beyond getting a rise out of Batman exclusively, no more crazy capers or silly schemes, he just skins babies alive to make Batman angry
>>154081036>It really doesn't, as such a line of thinking would indicate that Joker has zero self-drive and only exists in a purely reactionary state determined by the actions of Batman.I said "partly" responsible, not fully responsible. My issue is, hero does x, x creates y. Sure, other people bear responsibility. But when EVERYTHING is connected to the hero, it makes the universe feel small. Much like the OP example. We're talking about two different things.>That doesn't make Batman responsible for the Joker, that makes Joker an attention whore.Again, you're misunderstanding the argument. The comment that kickstarted the discussion is:>Heroes are the problem for escalating the situation!A lot of superhero fiction connects the heroes to the situations making them PARTLY responsible for the escalation. Rather than villains or situations arising completely indepent. Do you understand what I mean? This is a "small world" problem. When your universe connects everything to the hero.
>>154081022Maybe post-crisis Superman
>>154081022I can't think of any western superheroes but it's a recurring origin of Kamen Rider
>>154081049It's implied the League of Shadows is full of shit.
>>154081049I'm imagining the LoS having a conniption fit because their original plan keeps getting stymied by modern economic policy. >And exactly how large was the federal subsidy? >>154081060Batman saves the city by announcing he's taking a year long sabbatical.
>>154081142>I'm imagining the LoS having a conniption fit because their original plan keeps getting stymied by modern economic policy.From what I remember,. Ras pretty much says, Gotham was shit, we targetted the city with economics, your parents and others tried to make things better, your parents died, killed by someone they were trying to help, the city limped on every since and we came back to finish the job. The overall theme is, for them finishing the job is killing it and they view Batman/Bruce as a half measure. This to me creates another issue of adaptations and things, the idea of, does the heroes presence make any difference?
>>154081113Actually this, when i think of the villain creating the heroes it tends to come in Manga
>>154081171>This to me creates another issue of adaptations and things, the idea of, does the heroes presence make any difference?In Nolan Batman, League were targetting Gotham regardless. In TDK it gets worse before it gets better. TDKR implies things were much better until the League returns again.
>>154081106I agree that small world syndrome is a major problem, but my arguments are squarely against the notion of the hero having any responsibility for villains even if they're connected to them in some manner. Hence the simile about a stalker. Take Starman for an example. Jack's actions result in the direct motivation of the Mist as a villain. But is Jack responsible for the Mist's actions? Fuck no, the Mist was already an accessory to the actions of her father and her brother and the intended goal was the murder of Ted, David, and Jack. At no point are Mist's later murders on Jack's shoulders because he killed Kyle in self-defense. It's just the self-righteous and self-absolving justification for Mist's salty runback.
>>154081277> but my arguments are squarely against the notion of the hero having any responsibility for villains even if they're connected to them in some mannerAgain I suspect we're talking completely past each other and you seem to think I mean something I don't. I put heavy empthasis on partly and you still seem to think I mean something more extreme? Maybe this is a semantics issue with the word responsible where you seem to think it means something absolute? If you're in a car accident and accidentally hit someone with your car, you're still responsible even though you did not intend to hit them. The issue is around, how the actions of a hero change the world and how many writers seem to imply that their very presence causes escalation, directly or indirectly, which begs the question, is there even a point to having the hero?So does the hero actually make a difference? Far too many writers seem to think heroes must always cause escalating problems, always have these connections and part responsibility for these situations, even if they didn't intend to cause the problems. This is a quick way of building drama and tension and appears to ask deep questions. But it suffers from the problem of being taken as meaning that the hero really isn't doing a lot, despite noble intentions. Take away the hero from a situation, avoid another supervillain being made. The extreme problem now is that storylines often multiply the consequences so much that make this issue even more pronounced. Of course there are different storylines and situations where this does not happen. But by connecting the hero to too many of these situations it does create an issue.To be completely clear I am talking about poor writing making it feel like all the hero does is make things worse all the time because things aren't ever independently created but always partly in their sphere of influence.
>>154081049The city was shit and they decided to destroy it, it's not difficult.
The heroes can't make a difference because otherwise the stories have to end or change too radically and can't go on for another 90 years.
>>154081049It's just like an animal pursuing wounded prey. They might've not caused the initial wound, but they're targeting it, running it down, and finishing it off.
>>154081577No one said it was difficult, the retarded thing is the League using economics to make the city worse.>This city is bad.>Some people are trying to make it better.>Lol let us make it worse via economics.>Now we are back to destroy it.Like okay.>>154081586Anon, I understood the motivation, I think it is the line about using economics which I always found a bit silly.
>>154080538I feel the same way about The Punisher.Not having actual revenge to take better facilitates his motivation to just declare war on crime itself.When there's an actual face behind his family's deaths, he kills them, then just decides "in for a penny, in for a pound", I find that much less gripping.
>>154081583Spider-Man wanting his secret identity to be secret again killed Aunt May and almost caused a multiversal incursion. I think there is a difference between:>Hero can't make a difference because we need stories to keep going.and>Heroes actions almost cause the collapse of the universe??
>>154081624Isn't that the plot of Gameoverse?
>>154081617Netflix Punisher was retarded with its conspiracy. Because they have done this twice, Punisher gets his revenge completed and doesn't want to continue and then he continues.
>>154080664>It being a random killing is still better.I like how the DCAU tie-in Batman adventures handled it, it basically reworks the 50's story.We as the audience knows Joe Chill. He went to jail for other crimes, but was never attached to the Wayne murder. But he's been paranoid since his release about being tied to it, because Bruce saw him and he fears he could pin him as the shooter. He imagines Bruce wayne every where he goes. Eventually he runs into Batman, manages to unmask him, and is in such a shock he falls to his death. Batman never realizes who he is.
>>154080538Having Doom be a part of Reed's crew kind of fucks up over his entire personality. By tying his origin to the four, you effectively make his transformation a direct consequence of Reed's hubris, when the point of Victor is that he's so egocentric that he blames Reed for his fate even when the latter had absolutely nothing to do with it, just because Doom can't even fathom the idea of making a mistake on his own.
>>154081480We're not talking past each other; our argument is about validity of the concept. You're arguing that the hero has some culpability, I'm arguing the hero has no culpability. Funnily enough, Batman does have a villain that only exists because of him: Killer Moth. A villain whose entire original MO was "fights Batman for money."
>>154081654They just did it again with One Last Kill.All of Bernthal Frank's solo projects have been total dreck, but he's still great when he shows up in Daredevil, so I have hope for his appearance in Spider-Man.
>>154080538Whenever Superman, and by extension any other Kryptonian, has random powers show up uncontrollably. A surprising number of his powers were the result of actually training himself to do things. Super strength, speed, etc. should be obvious, but even things like heat vision didn't just happen randomly, it was him learning to focus his x-ray vision into a weapon.
>>154080727Its a watsonian explanation for the doyalist situation around superheroes. The supervillians conveniently show up after the superheroes do so that the superheroes have something to fight. No one writing the comics at the time cared about the implications of this, or the fact that there were no pre-existing supervillians, because that wasn't the sort of thing anyone cared about at the time. But its nevertheless the order of eventsAnalyzed from a worldbuilding perspective, you have a tricky situation where if there WERE villains before the heroes, what happened with them? Either the villians absolutely stomped and won without issue because there were no caped heroes to stop them, or the police COULD handle a weird guy in a colorful costume and a science gun on their own and the superheroes were unnecessary the whole time.Drawing attention to it and trying to make it some kind of commentary is stupid, though. It pretends to have something deeper or more meaningful to say but its extremely fucking shallow.A counterexample to this would be something like Kamen Rider, where the villain ABSOLUTELY exited before the hero did, which is why they have managed to become this global covert shadow organization and no one could stop them. Indeed, the hero is a creation of the villain made with their technology who escapes the brainwashing and now fights against them, he is in response to the Shocker not the other way around. This is clean, but means that Kamen Rider spends all of his time fighting Shocker and its minions as his full time gig. As opposed to cape comics, where heroes never fight just one group of bad guys as a focused story and instead deal with random, unrelated mooks so they can't have a backstory that too deeply ties them to any particular Big Bad as their primary nemesis because that would mean that defeating that villian would be the logical endpoint of their story, and their stories are not design to have endings.
>>154081142>Batman saves the city by announcing he's taking a year long sabbatical.Wouldn't work. Joker would go full Gilles de Rais on Gotham specifically to try and be so absolutely horrendous that he would force Batman to come back from his vacation early.The smart way to defuse Joker, and indeed accomplish a number of other things, would be for Bruce to fake the death of Batman entirely and, after a break, return to Gotham as a completely new hero with no known relation to Batman at all. Trick the Gotham crime scene into thinking they are dealing with a new hero while actually secretly benefiting from his years of knowledge and history. The trick would be coming up with a new MO and fighting style and list of tools that wouldn't give himself away.But if Batman is dead, and then 3 months later Palladium Paladin shows up, Joker isn't going to be emotionally invested in that walking tin can and will be directionless.
>>154080650Yeah. The one time nurse outfit in Asylum was kinda cute.But then the bimbo custom costume from Arkham City onwards was a tragedy.That and Asylum was last time Sorkin voiced Harley. City gave us Tara Strong's annoying screech...
>>154080538the murder of the waynes being premeditated is worse than making Joker kill them
>>154080947>implying Joker appearing is a result of the BatmanSuch a thing is not implied. Stop saying objectively wrong when you're objectively wrong.
>>154082202The easiest answer is that all the supervillains would have been, or were, regular criminals without the existence of the hero, the hero's existence simply made them decide to adopt a grandiose persona while doing so. Then you've got heroes like the Hulk where his genesis serves as a "proof of concept" that has villains show up because it wouldn't have made any sense for them to exist prior; why subject Blonsky to gamma radiation to turn him into the Abomination before Hulk shows up and shows that you can use gamma radiation to turn people into musclebound superhumans?
>>154081022PPG?
>>154083588Actually both.
>>154080627I hated literally every single thing telltale did personally
>>154081806We are completely talking past each other. This discussion started because in some situations the impact of the hero is assessed as having a multiplication effect of escalating situations, meaning that the very fact you have heroes creates some butterfly effect. Captain America: Civil War directly has this mentioned by Vision, the idea that the very presence of heroes (since Iron Man) has indirectly or directly influenced events causing more world ending problems. In the MCU as well there are a number of situations where the hero is directly culpable for events. So without the hero you may not have had any threat. This is the thing I'm criticising and discussing. Making the hero partly responsible for these events takes away the point of the hero. In comics we have some similar ideas to this, examples where the hero is connected to the villain, meaning the heroes very presence has some impact in creating these situations. Now you're getting hung up on this point and saying, no they are not culpable or not responsible. And all I am saying is, the way the stories are written suggest minor culpability or culpability to various degrees. Because the very presence of the hero has shaped this. I am not suggesting that the hero is completely to blame or that others have zero responsibility like you seem to have implied. This is a misunderstanding. You've provided examples of situations where it hasn't happened. No where did I suggest this is always the case. Meaning your examples are not connected to the point at hand. I am simply saying I prefer that some threats and situations are born seperately from the hero, that the hero doesn't always have an indirect or direct influence on always making situations worse. That this effect creates small universes and downplays any ability for the hero to do anything of worth. I simply don't like the idea that the hero is to blame for supervillains in some works.
>>154082686Joker in TDK says without the Batman he would still be ripping off two bit drug dealers. He absolutely states that Batman completes him. And that he is doing things because he wants to be on the level of Batman. He even criticises the other criminals as only caring about money when Gotham needs a better class of criminal. You're completely wrong. Joker says he did what he did as a result of Batman.
>>154080538Making Iron Man not just Spider-Man’s mentor, but making the villains of 2 movies have personal vendettas against him. I don’t think there’s any way to justify such a corporate move, it’s literally making the character they don’t own subordinate to their moneymaker. It completely gutted Spider-Man’s character into making his iron dad proud. Every wrong choice with him, down to the awful way he talks, traces back to this.
>>154084003Iron Man:>Obidiah Stane was his father's friend.>Whiplash wanted revenge against Tony because of his father.>Killian wanted revenge against Tony snubbing him.Spider-Man:>Vulture was upset at his working class guys being snubbed by Damage Control/Tony Stark.>Mysterio was snubbed by Tony. >Peter fucked up a spell.
>>154081060That's part of the problem. Joker-wank creates this larger multiplication effect. You need bigger threats and bigger connections. It takes away any ability to do anything more meaningful of low key. Especially not when the Joker only exists now to complete the Batman.
>>154080675Jonathan dying shows Clark that even with all his powers, he can't save everyone.
>>154082202>It pretends to have something deeper or more meaningful to say but its extremely fucking shallow.A lot of universes want to appear deep by appearing "grounded" or "realistic" (however you define those points). But as a point it is never really grounded or realistic because it never actually explores those ideas in any real or tangible way. And like you say, drawing attention to it is stupid, it makes it feel absurd. It is the problem of meta commentary, the wink wink, we know this is stupid or silly but go with it. Suspension of disbelief.
>>154080538I kinda like the twist in johns earth one with that. Where Bruce was sure it was a hit by penguin but when he finally confronts him he says I was gonna get them killed but a random mugger did it for me first
>>154080675>I hate when Jonathan Kent is dead.So you hate Golden and Silver Age Superman?The Kents being alive during Clark's adulthood wasn't a thing until Post-Crisis.Pre-Crisis, their deaths signaled his growth from Superboy into Superman.
>>154080764Yeah they were supposed to be old when they adopted him so by the time he was an adult they were long dead to free him of any obligations to them
>>154080664>Also I don't like Jor El knowing that Kal would be superhuman on Earth,Why didn't more Kryptonians go to Earth i they knew that it would make them super-human?Hell, if going to Mars made men's dicks 2 inches longer, you can bet to high hell we would have colonized the planet decades ago.
>>154080819That specific version doesn't check out because like most we find that Strange doesn't mean what he says (he's deliberately stoking the criminal fires to have an excuse to kill all of them with his purge protocol to impress Ra's) but also that in Arkham Origins the Joker existed before Batman and had no interest in him beyond removing him as an obstacle until Batman saved him from dying and he became obsessed with him
Mr Freeze in the New 52.>Dad leaves, mother is mental and he kills his mother>Starts working for Wayne Enterprises.>Dementia made him think Nora was his wife and they were in love.>But they weren't.>Bruce shuts the project so he blames Bruce.
>>154084273Because space travel was banned and only the els managed to make space pods
>>154084273Usually when Jor-El knows, it's because he's been doing illegal/off the record research on inhabitable planets.But yeah, I agree with anon that it's better when he doesn't know and he's basically just taking a big chance on shooting his son into space.He doesn't know if he'll make it somewhere safe, but between definitive death and probable death, the choice is obvious, all he can do is shoot his son, and hope.
>>154084308Wait really?
>>154080655>Super Soldier SerumI forget just how much that Ultimate Universe was connected. I remember Hulk, Venom, Green Goblin and others were all Super Soldier Serum attempts. Then I think Peter Parker's dad, Sue Storm's dad, Eddie Brock's dad, Pym and Bruce Banner were all working on projects together. Then there was the weird WW2 shit with Fury, Kingpin's dad and other things. Then there was the Mutants all being an experiment too, artificially created and a Mutant #0 who they were created from. So pretty much everything was WW2/SSS adjacent.
>>154083726You hated the walking dead season 1?
>>154084329
>>154084347I loved that. My favorite part was the US military turning Wolverine into a living weapon and using him in the Gulf War.
>>154081022Miraculous Ladybug sort of. The main villain appears first but he's deliberately making himself a threat so the guy who holds the magic jewels that power the heroes will notice and activate them so said villain can steal them which is his actual goal.
>>154084377Good Lord I'm glad we got rid of nu52
>>154080584Brave and the Bold had Joe Chill be one of Lew Moxon's goons. Moxon ordered it to look like a mugging after Thomas Wayne stopped his heist.
>>154084390I personally find the connections a bit much when everyone's dad was part of the same project. But that's me. It was Ultimate Origins that had a lot of this shit. Nick Fury/James Howlett get experimented on then everything is kind of built off of them. Then Project Rebirth 2 with all the dads. I feel like a lot of comic creators were aping off of popular shows like Lost with all the "it is all connected" mystery shit.
>>154081609It really comes off like that League just decided they want to destroy Gotham to make a point and tried to make it shitty to retroactively justify themselves.
>>154084206>And like you say, drawing attention to it is stupid, it makes it feel absurd.My problem with it is that it doesn't have any actual applicable meaning to it. Lets say that you draw attention to the idea that superheroes provoke supervillians into existence as a response. Okay, then what? Whats the actual message that you are trying to convey with this realization? There is no real world situation that this "lesson" is applicable to, even in allegory. IRL people with good intentions can provoke unforeseen consequences, but bad guys don't rise up to oppose you just because you EXIST in and of itself. Thats fucking stupid. It has the SHAPE of some kind of nuanced topic or moral conundrum, but there's fucking nothing inside.Compare this to something like the topic of Magic in a story like Witch Hat Atelier, where the crux of the story and the motivations of both sides in an ideological conflict hinge around how something as powerful as magic is regulated and used. The side of the Pact that has come up with a set of arbitrary rules and restricts that it executes without exception and punishes any infraction with extreme prejudice because it is afraid of the power being abused and slipping the world back into chaos, and the brimhats who are painted as extremists who want there to be no restrictions on the use of magic (even dangerous and harmful magic) because they think the magic cops are bullshit tyrants. Which is true, the only reason that all of the brimhats we see are terrorists are because anyone with their views who was a moderate gets mindwiped by the magic cops, only the most paranoid and dangerous opponents of the system survive.Obviously magic isn't real, but the situation works an an allegory for the balance between safety and freedom, authoritarianism vs anarchy. There is meat on these bones to analyze and debate the topic, unlike "what if heroes cause villians, wouldn't that be kinda fucked up?"
>>154084480That I can agree on, even Bendis kind of ignored Peter’s dad knowing the other super scientists.
>>154081022Does Batman 1989 count? Jack Napier doesn't become Joker until after he falls in the vat, but he killed Bruce's parents which sets the events in motion to begin with
>>154084451It shouldn't be a surprise that DC fucked up the Freeze/Nora story, they didn't create it. Freeze having that great and tragic backstory is a BTAS invention. Prior to that he was just a generic badguy with a freeze gun. And, as we know, the comics writers fucking HATE when the adaptions do something better written/more popular than the comics do. They can't help but piss on the side of it to leave their mark after the fact. Kind of like how no version of the teen titans in comics has ever been as popular as the animated version of them, but the comics absolutely detest the idea of using that team lineup/those versions of the characters out of what can only be described as spite.
>>154084493>actual applicable meaning to itIt is just:>Wot if superheroes were "real" bruv.>Watchmen or sumthin'.There is no point to it, just the attempt to ape off the theme or an attempt at "maturity" or "grittiness". Some people think it is just a cynical attempt by people to justify their love of comics by giving it meaning of questioning *something* as if it has the shape of a point, like you say. Otherwise they feel immature. The problem is these types of points just end up in the end point of the fart huffing Twitter commentator asking, why doesn't Bruce Wayne just fix Gotham with money? When there has been stories about that stuff and we obviously know the meta answers.>It has the SHAPE of some kind of nuanced topic or moral conundrum, but there's fucking nothing inside.They drew a point to it in Civil War because they wanted to artificially create a conflict. Whether or not registration makes sense doesn't matter. In Civil War Tony was responsible for shit. Tony making Ultron caused Sokovia in the first place which caused the act. It wasn't even a provocation, he directly did that shit. None of it makes much sense. In that way, those films are good adaptations of comics. Because that is often how things are. There is no real lessons or allegories here.
>>154084551actually yeah the movie acknowledges it too>I made you but you made me first
>>154084273The reason tends to vary from canon to canon.>Krypton got so arrogant with their belief that they were the greatest civilization that they refused to leave even when the planet was about to blow up>Krypton was trying to open new colonies for a time, but their sensitivity to solar radiation kept killing and/or debilitating them and they ultimately gave up>The Green Lantern Guardians feared what might happen if Krypton found just the right kind of sun to superpower them and made sure no evacuations or rescue attempts would be made before the planet exploded
>>154084555>It shouldn't be a surprise that DC fucked up the Freeze/Nora story, they didn't create it.They did a Freeze story called Snow in Legends of the Dark Knight #192-195 in the 00s which used the tragic backstory only that story was pretty, ehhh? There is an overarching plot of Batman recruiting civilians to help him and he is chasing down this criminal with an afro haircut. Later he realises he can't really work with these civilians without putting them in danger. Anyway it has Mr Freeze in his BTAS style tragic origin only Mr Freeze sees Nora fully as this fairy type character talking to him. The art style didn't help the story either.
>>154084712>>The Green Lantern Guardians feared what might happen if Krypton found just the right kind of sun to superpower them and made sure no evacuations or rescue attempts would be made before the planet explodedThat's fucked up.
>>154080584I feel like I remember Gotham doing it but it's been so long since i've watched that show I could be totally wrong
>>154084712In Sandman Endless Nights, Despair of the Endless blew up Krypton with a sole survivor as a work of art to create despair, then the sole survivor was Superman and became a symbol of hope completely ruining her plan.
>>154084749That show was a fever dream but I vaguely remember a conspiracy plot, so maybe.
>>154084702The Resurrection novel makes this a plot-point, as Bruce fears Joker actually DID know he was Batman during that talk about who made who first, which becomes doubly-worrying when the possibility of Joker's survival comes up. It's all revealed to be Bruce's paranoia jumping to conclusions; Joker is still dead as dead can get and he was just rambling aimlessly.
>>154084555>>154084714Anon is full of shit anyway, the 90s bat writers loved BTAS and added a bunch of stuff from it to the books.
>>154081049The weirdest thing about Batman Begins is they kind of redo the joker twist from 89 with the leave of shadows being partially responsible for the Wayne's deaths
>>154084799Nora's debut in the comics was a flashback origin story for Freeze where she was outright killed in the crossfire between him and Batman. She wouldn't turn up again until much later when Freeze tries putting her frozen remains in a Lazarus pit and she comes out flaming and crazy.
>>154081022Crash Bandicoot
>>154081022Vision and Ghost Rider come to mind
>>154081801For Doom I'd also add anything that unironically makes him a good and caring leader. If he actually does make Latveria a thriving metropolis under his iron boot then he is absolutely right about Reed being a bitch who can't make the hard choices or fix the world.
>>154081022Mirage TMNT technically if you consider them superheroes at all, their whole mission was to kill Shredder
>>154084003IMO they should have just let Andrew Garfield Spider-Man be in the MCU instead of starting over with a new version. Yeah those movies weren't the best either but if Disney didn't want to have to do another origin for him then why not just bring over the one who's already established?
>>154080675Pa's death is like the kinoest part of Superman though (so long as it's health issues and not something beyond retarded like a tornado). All this power and he can't save his father from an underlying health issue drives home the fact that he can't do everything but goddamn it if he's not gonna try
>>154080584Long Halloween implies it may have been a hitjob
>>154084308Getting rid of the tragedy is the worst thing you can do. If you want Mr.Freeze to be a recurring villain there are better ways to do it, hell simply making him an asshole nerd drunk on power now that he's finally off the chain once his wife died is simple enough
>>154081022Dragon Ball, technically
>>154085290Funny, I was just going to post about Amazing Spider-Man in relation to OP. >IMO they should have just let Andrew Garfield Spider-Man be in the MCUAmazing Spider-Man almost had connections with Avengers with Avengers tower visible in the skyline (or was it Oscorp visible in Avengers) I forget which, but Disney/Sony could not agree.Amazing Spider-Man was awful when it came to conspiracy shit.>Richard Parker worked for Oscorp and him and his wife were murdered by Oscorp.>The only reason the Spider bite did anything is because it was coded to his father's DNA.>Amazing Spider-Man 2 film stops all plot momentum to have Peter start investigating his father again, complete with Sony product placement.>One deleted scene had Peter's dad appear at Gwen's grave, stating he had faked his death.>Oscorp were behind everything and Oscorp even had a room of villain gimmicks, Vulture wings, Ock's arms, heck even a ball of goo that could be a Symbiote (pic related).>Lizard and Electro were both Oscorp creations.>So was Harry Goblin.>The implication of the Sinister Six they were setting up was Oscorp just handing out villain gimmicks because Spider-Man's DNA was the key to Oscorp's shit.
>>154085427>The only reason the Spider bite did anything is because it was coded to his father's DNA.It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it but wasn’t this cut in reshoots? The villain room is pretty dumb but I don’t hate the Oscorp conspiracy idea.
>>154085290>why not just bring over the one who's already established?Because Sony were upset with how Amazing Spider-Man 2 did and promised huge returns. They had spent a bunch of money planning an Amazing Spider-Man movie universe (villain movies and spin offs). The hacks and leaked emails show just how clueless they were about Spider-Man. The dubstep emails are a meme for a reason. A lot of the Iron Boy MCU Spider-Man shit seems to be at Sony's insistence at wanting Spider-Man to be linked to the most popular MCU hero because they wanted to do MCU numbers. Then they tried to do an adjacent Spider-verse again but aside from Venom, all their other projects flopped (Morbius, Kraven, Madame Web). Chasing the MCU killed a lot of companies. Sony wanted Amazing Spider-Man to be a universe. It also wanted to create a Ghostbusters universe but the reboot flopped. Universal tried to create the Dark Universe twice, once by forcing last minute changes to Dracula: Untold and a second by doing The Mummy. Heck even the King Arthur Guy Ritchie film was meant to set up a universe. And Disney fucked up Star Wars because it wanted it to be like the MCU.
>>154084493Because at it's core the idea is very Liberal (not small "L" I'm fine with minorities liberal but big "L" THE RULE OF LAW Liberal). >The individual should not take action no matter how ineffective or corrupt authority is and no matter how dire the situation is>you have to follow DA RULES, DA RULES are sacrosanct and should not be questioned>Authority's means and methods are tested and "safe" while anything the Individual does may cause unforeseen circumstancesBrainletts like to parrot the whole "Superheroes are inherently fascistic" talking points but at the same time chug bootlicking bullshit like this
>>154080727bad writers with dumb feral logic and feral fans.go on point out themyscira is based on sexism and the lasso of truth is not consent and rape. ooops rage.point out batman holding someone over a building upside down is awesome. now have joker do it for intel. (no do not go but joker would. nope this is exact same thing and joker bad batman cool) fuck off.oh fear to make comply and obey and behave batman? *laughing in sinestro*oracle hack into the planet and download anything and stalk them on camera! *yay batman is awesome*luthor we hacked into everything on the planet and can follow everyone now on cameras *cue the justice league shutting it down and oracles stays up*you notice the shit and go this is trash writing and fans suck for thinking its good. too much feral and too much hypocritical and too much sexism towards men and female sexism still seethed atagain themyscira rape pits shhhhdr. light still gets seetheok lets make a themyscria of male only and the same teachings done at females. ohhhh yeah nope not allowed. themyscira still exists. wonder woman still a man hating sexist and the lasso still used. batman and superman stand with her and say nothing.flip that gender of a male doing those things and females standing by saying nothing...hmm outcome not the same.fuck you all.
>>154085522it’s funny that when they finally got off their asses and made a venom movie he was just a goofy comic relief character who also happened to eat people. If it was an actual cinematic universe about supervillains teaming up to fight Carnage people would eat that shit up
>>154085497>It’s been a long time since I’ve seen it but wasn’t this cut in reshoots?I forget but I believe that explanation may still be there, partly to explain why the bites didn't effect anyone else. Remember they had a whole room with thousands of those spiders. Also those spiders created the webbing Peter uses. >The villain room is pretty dumbIt really is.>I don’t hate the Oscorp conspiracy idea.For me it suffers from that Ultimate Spider-Man everything is the Super Soldier Serum problem. What is Oscorp's goal here? Aside from fixing the disease the family is suffering from. The universe feels small. Oscorp handing out gimmicks to anyone with a grudge. Personally I hated those Amazing Spider-Man movies. But Andrew Garfield could have been great. The opening to Amazing Spider-Man 2, Peter almost missing his graduation, fighting crooks trying to steal from Oscorp, the dinner with Gwen's family, was all really solid stuff. But then Electro, the conspiracy plot, everything else is just crap.
>>154085579They wanted to do a Sinister Six movie but without Spider-Man. Then those plans fell through and were shelved after 2 didn't meet expectations. Then post Venom they decide they will try it again. This led to bizarre shit like that Vulture cameo in Morbius. Let us team up and fight Spider-Man? Okay. But then this Morbius has never met Spider-Man? These producers only reuse their old ideas. Post TLJ/Solo Disney shelved the Obi Wan/Boba Fett movies only to reuse their ideas in shows as soon as Mandalorian was a success
>>154085522Honestly everything being Oscorp's fault could work if they just get rid of any underlying conspiracy. Just make Oscorp such a shitty workplace with incredibly lax hiring and safety standards that so many unrelated projects keep producing super villains that even the CEO, President and face of the company ends up a schizo freak at one point. Pure "move fast and break things" the super science company
>>154085561That’s not a liberalistic view
>>154080538Batman's parents dying in a random act of violence instead of being a designated "hit" frames the shit he is fighting. Chaos. There is no ending what took his parents. You can't safeguard an entire citizen because you can't account for every stray bullet or desperate person living in it. If you make it a hit, you make it so there is a logic to his parents dying. X happened so that leads to his parents needing to be killed. He solves it and finds relief. That makes his pursuit less manic though. You don't need to dress as a fucking bat to solve your parents murder if there is logic to it. Especially with all his money. Instead the shit is random and Bruce tries to apply some logic to a world he knows makes no sense by becoming a "detective" and trying to make it so it never "happens again" while dressed as a fucking bat. That's how crazy the world is to him, that doing wearing a costume makes more sense. That is the tragedy of this guy. He's broken. He can't solve his parents death in any meaningful way ever.
>>154085573You wanna shoot at humans?
>>154080657They should had fuck
>>154085708Big L Liberal or I should clarify neo-Liberal. Lots of stink about "The Rule of Law" and institutions. Individual rights are (on paper) sacrosanct but individual action is not only frowned upon but action is taken against because god forbid "something" happens
>>154085718I have no idea what you are on about. voicing things does not somehow in your wierdo brain = shoot people. you need therapy you wackjob. no I do not want to shoot humans over bad comic writing. fuck off with whatever your malfunction is.
>>154085211even Triumph and Torment?
>>154085573Holy ESL.
>>154085826Sperg
>>154085573Please for the love of god learn how to capitalize your sentences.
>>154085868nope not at all. grammar, spelling, nor punctiuation matter. stop assuming everyone is your racism.>>154085899emotional butthurt post>>154085916implying that matters at all on any level on 4chan. stop being one of those autisms.
>>154085957>nope not at all. grammar, spelling, nor punctiuation matter. stop assuming everyone is your racism.Lol, retard>emotional butthurt postThat’s all of your posts
>>154085957Hola senior!
>>154080856Truth and facts get in the way of doing whatever you want.
>>154080873I never got the idea that mundane organized crime outfits could be entirely displaced by gangs organized around bloodthirsty malignant spastics like most of Bruce's rogues.
>>154084555>Kind of like how no version of the teen titans in comics has ever been as popular as the animated version of them, but the comics absolutely detest the idea of using that team lineup/those versions of the characters out of what can only be described as spite.Haha You are forgeting one big detail: royaltiesThey hate when adaptations go well, but love when adaptations of stuff they have writen goes well for the same reason.
>>154085211You can still make that work by having Doom as a good and caring leader who is completely merciless against any dissent or questioning of his authority/actions. Latveria is a utopia as long as you do what you're told, don't question anything, and praise Doom. >>154085341Nu52 could have worked with the tweak that there was a real Nora but the woman in the freezer isn't her. Nora Fries died during the cryo process and Victor has gone full delusional in his inability to cope with grief. The woman in the glass is a stand-in that allows him to avoid facing reality by acting as a lynchpin for a fantasy where he cures his wife's incurable illness, fixes himself, and they all live happily ever after.>>154085809Still not liberal, nor is it neoliberal, which is an economic term.
>>154084725I wish some adaptation did that and ran with it. Completely destroys the Earth Lanterns' faith in the Corps as an institution. Especially if the ayy lmaos they see as close friends, who've never met Clark, don't get why they're taking it so personally.
>>154085211Also, it sends a message that megalomaniacal narcissists with messiah complexes really do have our best interests in mind. Rings hollow in this age of techbro retardation.
>>154086011>*laughs at the butthurt posts*
>>154084712I've always thought it'd be interesting to explore if Supergirl carried all the old prejudices from Krypton. Like her 1st encounter with Mon-El is basically, "fuck him, he's a Daxamite, they can never be trusted".
>>154086431>Supergirl has a secret harem
>>154086308I do
>>154080538Pick literally any of the batman villains and find something they added later to make them edgy as fuck. Chances are pretty good I don't like that, but one that springs to mind immediately is Freeze not even being married and just perving on some woman in cryostasis.
>>154086278Oh yay, another plot thread where the Guardians are evil. But the real problem is the Guardians could point to Zod and all of Superman's other Kryptonian villains and go, "imagine an entire planetary society lead by those kinds of people who all have that kind of power let loose on the galaxy."
>>154086303After Krakoa I half believe a sizable minority of comic writers are crypto fascists but the level of crypto that even they don't realize it
>>154086545I don't think tut-tutting moralism is an effective way to excuse genocide.
>>154080538I hate how The Shadow movie gives The Shadow (as Lamont Cranston) an origin story and it's worse than trying to make the character fit a capeshit movie template, they make it so that he used to be an outright monster BEFORE he became The Shadow, and if the novelization/earlier script drafts are any implication, then Lamont Cranston is a human who's being followed by a fallen angel/Satan throughout the centuries, his dark side that he keeps at bay.It's ridiculous. The whole point of The Shadow is that he's a total mystery and he's NOT Lamont Cranston, Lamont Cranston is an identity he pillaged from a harmless rich playboy, just like how he stole the identity of the WW2 pilot Kent Allard after he died in a plane crash. The pulps imply that the Shadow might very well be some kind of entity that's existed long before WW2, with the comics going as far to suggest he could possibly be a repentant demon/robot/vampire (Dracula).And besides that, the appeal behind the character is that he looks and acts like a supervillain who cuts down bad guys and laughs evilly, but the twist is that he's very kind, thoughtful, compassionate, understanding, merciful, and empathetic. He's a huge diva, he's noble, he's prideful, he's envious, he's a daredevil, he's honest, etc.
>>154086551I think that's writers in general.
>>154086797No
>>154086673It's one thing to go "The Shadow used to be a bad guy" because that's something that isn't completely illogical considering how Dracula was a major influence on the character, but to go "The Shadow IS Lamont Cranston and he used to be a drug kingpin/warlord" is just lazy and it makes things feel small.If you're going to give him an origin story, it needs to track with how The Shadow is equally a magician as much as he is a vampire. Make him evil in his past life if you want, but make it clear he's by no means normal and it should just leave you with more questions than answers.>perhaps he is a golem who fights for the little guy, always wearing a new face >alternatively, he is a Vampire who found God and seeks to protect the innocent from figurative bloodsuckers>or perhaps he is the collective Jungian Shadow of mankind, a walking answer to people's prayers asking for a hero
>>154081007What is Worm? I've seen it show up on AO3 quite a bit but have no idea what it is.
>>154082266Palladium Paladin ongoing when?
