despite my distaste for their philosophies and tastes, I understand where Moore and Ennis’s hatred of superheroes comes from. The genre’s overwhelming dominance of the comic book industry has reached a point where it feels like nothing else can exist. horror, war, thrillers, historical settings, everything has to involve superheroes in some way Moore's response was to deconstruct the superhero while Ennis's opted for crude mockery and taking a shit on them.
>>155986716comic books will never achieve the same status as classical works or books it was and always will be a medium for mostly degenerate abortive creatures that become far too attached to a fake character. I miss the old days when i used to be able to make these people work in my coal mine.
>>155986805You’re partly right. Comics were often regarded as cheap, trashy entertainment. Even before Seduction of the Innocent, EC Comics was seen by many as purveyors of cheap, tasteless schlock. The backlash that led to the Comics Code Authority was followed, in a sense, by the rise of underground comix, which pushed things even further in the direction of shock, raunchiness, and obscenity. That said, I still believe comics have the potential to be a much more sophisticated and artistically ambitious medium.
>>155986716And what is their work without superheroes, melodramatic war stories punctuated by poorly placed potty humor and lol random supernatural stories that are really about sad old men who rely on drugs to function and who, in the process, drive away every woman in their lives?
Moore loves super heroes. His problem is he hates himself, and he hates the fanbase he developed writing edgy comics about violence and rape.
>>155986716If Alan Moore wanted to write a 60-70 issue novel length epic that disregarded any genre convention he deemed bad, he could have. He never did. He got butt blasted about DC respecting the contract he signed, and that was that.If Ennis wanted to do the same, he could have. He chose to do the Boys and war minis.Saga exists. Hellboy exists. Gold Digger exists. Elfquest exists. Bone exists. Strangers in Paradise exists. Grendel exists. Fable exists. Monstress exists. Y the Last Man exists. Grimjack exists. And on and on.Instead of doing the work, they chose to bitch, or write contrarian works that only exists due to the genre they now claim to hate.They're good writers, but dumb men.
>>155986716You know, I do have an issue with writers like these, its almost like they think trends arent a thing. Yeah super heroes dominate the medium of comics and really have so for a while, but thats like blaming lord of the rings, Harry Potter, and twilight for focusing fiction on only focusing on wizards and vampires dominating fantasy books. Hell even anime has Deconstruction like modaka and Evangelion. But seriously didnt any of these guys stop and say that at least there is worth while work in-between all the slop? Isn't that the case with any creative medium? Really sometimes I wonder if you asked them today their minds would have changed little bit and at least they got to show their image and be well renowned for it.
>>155987237Alan Moore's name had so much weight from Watchmen alone that he could have gone on to write anything he wanted and a publisher would have signed him on the spot. He chose to write about Fish rape.
>>155986716Why complain when you can just make the sort of comics you want to make? If they don't sell then they didn't appeal to audiences. Simple as that. If all the comic genres that did less well than superheroes had better comics they'd survive. The comics code was basically over by the 80's. Horror magazines bought horror back in the 70's.Ultimately people wanted these genres more in movies and TV than comics.
>>155987353Give him the credit of ABC comics, Tom Strong and Promethea. But then Lee sold Wildstorm to DC, and Moore got angry that he would have to deal with the fuckers who.... respected his contract.What kind of weird man baby is he? What weird commie socialist dream did he think the industry was? I think stories of the cut throat back room bullshit had to be known by the 80s. Absolutely by the 90s.
>>155987353But anon, that’s exactly what he wanted to write about!
>>155987237>If Ennis wanted to do the same, he could have. He chose to do the Boys and war minis.tbf they do have tons of comics that have nothing to do with superheroes, they just suck and don't sell well. I remember the last ennis comic I read literally started with this joke, he probably thought this was the funniest shit in the world.
>>155987386It's not that I want to side with the business side of things but there's always this weird sense of entitlement with writers who get mad when they have to do their jobs. John Byrne was constantly throwing a fit because Jim Shooter told him what to do when Shooter was probably the best boss he ever had when it came to treating the employees well.
>>155987353Not really. It's not like he didn't write anything between Watchmen and those Lovecraft books. He was writing a bunch of comics and none of them sold particularly well, which is exactly why he took jobs like that. Comics sell like shit and Moore's star power means little for sales, there's a reason all the books he worked on for Avatar had no-name artists and little fanfare. Even the summary on the wiki page for one of the minis archives an interview where he said he basically did it to pay taxes>I had a tax bill coming up, and I needed some money quickly. So I happened to be talking to William [A. Christensen] from Avatar Press, and he suggested that he could provide some if I was up for doing a four-part series, so I did. So although I took it to pay off the tax bill, I’m always going to make sure I try and make it the best possible story I can
>>155987386>and Moore got angry that he would have to deal With the fuckers who.... respected his contract.to be entirely fair to Moore, he actually treated them with more professionalism than they deserved. And DC still managed to fuck him with that retarded Marvel Douches nontroversy that caused an entire issue of LXG to be pulped because it had an existing vintage add in the background
>>155987386>>155987542Moore's acknowledged that they were technically correct in the contract.He's not obligated to have to work for an employer who's contract he's already fulfilled, deemed what he wants to work with given his experience, and moved on. Jim Lee recognized his talent was worth paying for and saw to it he could continue to hire him in a way Moore would find agreeable. This is all reasonable, regardless of what you think of Moore as a person. Saying he should've figured he would've gotten dicked over only reflects poorly on DC because they were making strides to be more creator friendly in the 80's. They recognized they fucked up with how they handled Moore that it influenced how they handled their relationship with Gaiman.
Their hatreds are right. So are their tastes and philosophies.
>>155987854Nope, soifag
>>155986716I remember Moore saying something in 1999 or thereabouts, after his own publishing company failed, and A Small Killing and From Hell did poorly. He wanted to write a western with Glenn Fabry as the artist, but market was still superheroes. So he went back, in part to try to reverse the effects of his own 80s comics. I think it's around the time he was working on ABC, which was a fairly lighthearted imprint (aside from LoEG) compared to the widescreen comics of the time. Around this time as well, he almost worked for Marvel again, after Brevoort approached to do a Fantastic Four comic, which he turned down but suggested Ant-Man instead, which Brevoort turned down.
>>155986716It's odd how these two are hated more than the truly bad writers like Bendis and King. The latter are certainty hated, but there's a focused, sometimes insane hatred directed toward Moore and Ennis.Anyway, Moore was definitely a big capeshitter and is, to this day, my favorite cape writer of all time. Ennis was never a capeshitter, but even he had his cape moments, mostly in Hitman and Punisher MAX.
>>155989043I don't think Moore is hated outside /co/. At most he's criticized for the amount of rape in his works. I think what people hate about Moore and Ennis is that they have the potential to do truly great work, unlike Bendis and King, but instead of living up to their best work, they try to do something edgy and shocking that everyone ends up hating.
>>155987908/co/pe
>>155989043They're only really hated by people on here, for their politics, and because they're so big and influential even among casual comic readers so they're easy targets
>>155989043I would not be surprised if there were a fazillion jokes in comics about how much Bendis sucks.
It's just what the US market wants and demands. I don't see any other explanation at all.The CCA gets blamed for everything, and there's truth to that, but you can only blame it for so much. MAD bypassed the censors by transforming itself into a magazine, Marvel would have imprints that even did the same. Savage Sword of Conan became one of their best selling publications of the entire 70's, Conan comics introduced him to a new generation and shaped the public image of him even before Arnie did. Marvel would eve adapt Robert E Howard's other fantasy and horror stuff. But you don't see fantasy comics dominating things that much like superheroes do.DC would continue to do horror themed anthologies with Weird Western and Weird War Tales long after EC died.Funny animal comics were already dying off by the time Fantastic Four started, they certainly weren't in the crosshairs for the CCA. People wanting more funny animal comics is literally why furries began as a real fandom in the 70's fanzine scene, Robert Crumb himself said he stopped being into comics once funny animals became less popular and superheroes were back in style in the early 60's, the undergound comix boom enabled furries and then the black and white market in the 80'sSuperheroes still remained the most popular genre, barely budged, and only got bigger. People say to mimic shit that Japan does but that just leads to weebery, and anthologies and black and white printing were already the norm at certain pointsBut the masses wanted superheroes, they had all these options. Blame them.
>>155990126>But the masses wanted superheroes, they had all these options. Blame them.Honestly, this.Pic fucking related. Everyone loves to hate Didio, but under his control as Editor, DC tried OVER and OVER to publish non-superhero comics. Didio would personally keep things like Western comics and War comics afloat for as long as he could, hoping they'd find a market.They never did. At this point, at least, the readers are to blame as much as any publishers.
>>155986716These two are friends, but Moore and Morrison, the two British superhero-fanboy magicians, hate each other.
>>155989043If there's one thing 4chan likes more than being negative, it's being contrarian. Hating on Moore ticks both boxes, but I don't even think many anons really feel that way. You can discuss his comics just fine, it's just discussing the man himself that brings the seething.
>>155990242Moore is a communist anarchist magician who believes he's the heir to Alastair Crowley. He has a grimy beard like Hagrid from Harry Potter and wears too many rings, and then he wears t-shirts with all of this. He once had a wife and a mistress and they both left him for each other.He's not exactly some highly-respectable figure, if you know anything about his real life.
>>155986716>horror, war, thrillers, historical settings, everything has to involve superheroes in some way Moore's response was to deconstruct the superhero while Ennis's opted for crude mockery and taking a shit on them.All of this exists.https://batcave.biz/ComicList/g=14/https://batcave.biz/ComicList/g=15/https://batcave.biz/ComicList/g=22/https://batcave.biz/ComicList/g=44/Plenty of non-cape stuff here. But you will never read it because it's obscure and you're a lazy consoomer who wants things brought to him on a silver platter instead of bothering to search for them.
>>155990267And none of that changes the quality of his writing. Celebrity culture and caring about people's politics and personal lives has always been faggy shit for gossipy women, it's kinda sad it's so prevalent here now.
>>155990267People keep calling him a communist, but he hasn't been a communist since the fall of the Wall, perhaps a little bit after. None this other shit is a good reason to feel contempt for him either.
>>155990333It's almost as if the average social media retard with loud opinions is ignorant or something
Ennis is a real loser, at least Moore got fed up enough to write real books.
>>155990311Agreed.
>>155991141Ennis never even commented on The Boys adaptation, I think that's a pretty clear indication he's content to be where he's at and not overly attached to his old shitpost work
