You need calculus to make a game engine for example. No ifs or buts about it.

>>100113555
Give me an actual explanation for why this is true because I don't believe this even in the slightest.

>>100113532
>Computer Science is about writing software

>>100113555
>#include <glm/glm.hpp>
and done, cope some more
>>100113566
it isn't true unless you're ceething cnile with NIH syndrome

>>100113568
Then what it is it about? Nobody gets a CS degree to become a fucking mathematician.

>>100113566
Ideally you'd want vector calculus to do lighting and shading for example

>>100113581
Even if you were to write an entire game engine from scratch, where would you possibly need to use calculus for it? The only math I can think of that would be relevant for 3d graphics is linear algebra.

>>100113582
CS is a branch of mathematics. That doesn't change just cause you and all the other idiots in the room are only there for the money.

>>100113605
No you're wrong

>>100113608
I'm not here for the money though. I like programming and the math that's relevant to it. I just don't like arbitrary abstract math that has nothing to do with programming.

>>100113605
physics engines, but why would you make your own physics engine? You're writing a game

>>100113631
The main reason to make a custom engine is custom physics. The shading is not that important and it's a solved problem.

>>100113631
Ok I can see how it might be relevant for physics, but on the other hand, all of those are solved problems that you can just look up the formulas for on the internet. Writing a physics engine from scratch would never involve actually having to do any calculus yourself.

>>100113582

Considering programming is literally just number manipulation, you're going to be in a pretty shitty spot without the tools to accomplish that.

>>100113582
You're so lost. My best friend during college was a CS major. Now he's getting his PhD in mathematics.

>>100113654
>custom physics
>>100113655
NOOOOO, YOU CANNOT JUST DO THAT OK? YOU CANNOT JUST WATCH THIS VIDEO >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HjO_RGIjCU<<<

>>100113532
Filtered
FYI Drugasoft is hiring

>>100113532
>uses tiktokspeak like humiliation ritual
>too retarded to learn basic calculus
like clockwork

>>100113655

You can't look up what you don't know exists, the best you can do is hope to stumble into it.

the difference between an artist and an engineer is math

>>100113684
Math is just a tool for solving problems. Why would anyone want to specialize in the tool itself instead of a field where they solve actual problems?

>>100113581
>i can just import a library that will do it for me
webdev bootcamper mentality

>>100113720
Writing software is a lot closer to art than it is engineering.

>>100113754
sorry I'm just not interested in deriving matrices by myself when people did it for me thousands of times, I just won't do it by hand ok? Hahahahaahahahahaha

>>100113532
hi. you need it to do the interesting stuff like digital image processing and ai. I took my calculus classes during the pandemic, so they were online and i would just watch anime during the lectures. then later when i was getting my masters, I really wished i had paid attention in calculus instead of being a lazy faggot. i haven't needed it at all for my webdev job though, so if you just want money you don't have to care.

>>100113769

How's that first unity project coming along?

>>100113532
If you can't analyse a mathematical function on real numbers then you shouldn't be writing them in the real world. Because you're not going to know what they do. Calculus is an important tool of analysis. And it's unironically fun.

>>100113720
Math is an artistic discipline, retard. You meant to say physics.

>https://teachyourselfcs.com
This is the best collection of books and resources for learning everything there is to know about computer science and nowhere in it is calculus mentioned, which just reinforces my belief that it's a scam perpetuated by colleges to pad out their curriculum and keep you there longer so they can make more money off you.

if your iq is above 90 you should be able to sleep through calculus

>>100113896
I have an IQ of 86 and slept through it just fine.

I hate everything this board stands for. Money, safety, looking down on creativity, lack of sacrifice. We're not on the same plane of existence.

>>100113532
>>100113566
Every time you have to solve a problem involving continuous variables you will most likely need calculus. Physics, unless you get into a certain kind of quantum stuff, deals with continuous variables changing in time, the mathematical language you use for that is differential equations. Every physics simulation, or even just stuff in general that vaguely maps onto physical reality, like computer graphics, will likely involve continuous variables and thus calculus.

>>100113948
>hurr durr adding x to y every update in a while loop is complex math

>>100113913
true, i took a class on PDEs and was the only cs fag in it
the absolute state

>>100113771
what's the point? what understanding do you gain?
>no, i don't know how 3D transformations work, but I sure do know how to use the glm functions for them!
that's just sad

>>100113980
I understand how games work, don't care about your math sorry little man

>>100113532
Computer Science is math. If you don't want to do math don't major in Computer Science. Simple as.

there's a certain kind of person that posts in these threads that I utterly despise. to me, they are not even human -- some sort of golem npc automaton.
>no, i refuse to learn things
>i refuse to know stuff
>knowing stuff is useless
>you are a fool for wasting your time learning things
>but how does this BENEFIT ME????
>where's the money in that?
>i can just do [oversimplified thing that won't actually work]
>i can just use the work of a fool who actually wasted his time learning stuff

>>100113995
No it really isn't. Math is just a tool sometimes used in computer science.

>>100113532
It's called computer SCIENCE, not freecodecamp course #20383
You're supposed to get a deeper understanding of how computations fundamentally work under the hood (spoiler: it's all math), don't conflate CS with coding, the latter is a very small fraction of CS
"Okay but calculus is usele-" Machine learning. Simulations. General knowledge.
Just because you can't immediately apply knowledge doesn't mean it's useless, this is what academia used to be about, the pursuit of knowledge for knowledge's sake

>>100114025
>NOOOO I MUST KNOW EVERYTHING
midwit, some things are impossible to know

>>100113990
no you dont. i bet you dont even know what an NDC is faggot. just plug and chug and glue together.

>>100114025
Literally everything you listed is a sentiment I agree with, the reason it triggers you is because you're the aforementioned fag who wasted his time learning stuff so I can profit off of your work that you did for me

>>100114025
Learning things just for the sake of learning them is an extremely inefficient use of your time. You need to focus on learning the things that are relevant for the skill and job you want to do, not just arbitrary subjects about about random things that won't help you achieve anything in your life.

>>100114051
>>100114054
you are spiritually jewish, if not an outright jew

>>100113948
>>100113960
so was 17 year old me making ball physics simulations in comp eng. class calculus or not?

>>100114042
if this is message you got then you are complete idiot. not even understanding one level of abstraction below the one you are working on is completely and utterly fucking pathetic. no better than being a caveman.

I had to take OOP,c++, and multivariable partial differential eqs, multivariable calculus and analysis+ complex analysis. Don't talk to me, brainlet

>>100114054
Yeah I'm sure all that extra money is going to be worth it when you die burnt out
Learning things is fun and ultimately one of the best uses of one's time
Unlike money, knowledge doesn't degrade over time (apocalyptic events notwithstanding), making it much more valuable
But I guess some people would rather work 80 hours a week for their next lambo instead, to each their own

>>100113532
Why are you trying to study CS if you don't like math? Anyway i won't speak about disciplines i don't work in.
You need more discrete math than calculus because nothing is actually continuous in engineering. Everything has a limit and it's usually well understood.
Sampling rate of the ADC isn't infinite, the capacitance and inductance of traces and other components slows the rise and fall times.
Discrete samples are much easier to work with, i would never go balls deep into analog electronics because i can stimulate it better by creating a digital discrete model of the same

>>100114047
>oh my heckin 0.0 to 1.0erino, interpolation is so complex!
I spit in your face academiatroon.

>>100113723
>why can't I just have on-the-job training for advanced mathematics?
You're here to argue, nothing more. The world needs ditch diggers too.

>>100113532
there is value in learning calculus, but not in learning to solve a tiny subset of differential equations with pen and paper. it's just wasting time.

>>100113532
Generally I agree with you: A full calculus program shouldn't be required unless you plan to go into computer graphics design. Still, when you get to stuff like Maclaurin series, it teaches you about how to think about algorithms procedurally.

>>100113723
Math is simply a logical system based on axioms, it just happens to be applicable to solving real-world problems
I think the only tool here is you

>>100114097
>he thinks NDCs are about interpolation
retard. you had to google it, didn't you? still got the wrong answer btw.
in the slim chance that you want to learn: NDCs are the final coordinate space that you transform vertices into for a given graphics API before they are processed by the GPU rasterizer. the reason i asked about it is because you can't understand 3d transformations and how a 3d world ends up on a 2d screen using modern graphics apis without understanding it.

remember, it's not not knowing that's the bad part worth denigrating, it's refusing to know.

>>100113972
god you reminded me of how i accidentally stumbled into a fucking Papa Rudin class with my analysis background being a single semester of "analysis for computer scientists" that I mostly slept through
probably the most useful class i've ever taken due to the sheer workload and discipline it required from me

>>100114142
no I used OpenGL before
>you can't understand 3D transformations
I multiply a number by a matrix and it all just works, I spit in your face.

>>100113532
because programming in general was once a hobby for high IQ autists exclusively, then midwits like yourself heard you could make six figures and thought you could do it all too

>>100114172
Programming in the 80s had even less to do with math. It was all about knowing assembly language and the intricacies of how cpu's and memory worked. The people who became successful programmers in those days wouldn't have needed to even know basic middle school algebra to be good at their job.

>>100114142
None of this has anything to do with calculus. That's all linear algebra.

>>100114212
have you thought that maybe all these "muh math" fags on /g/ actually don't have even bachelor's degree in math? Don't ask me why I think that I just feel.

>>100114170
you are proud of your ignorance. this is not even an insult. just stating the fact.
opengl ndc is from -1 to 1 on all axes btw. since you mentioned it. they even had z going from -1 to 1 because people it would be neat to have the coordinate space be a symmetric cube.
>>100114212
who said anything about calculus? look at the reply chain.
calculus also of course has its uses by the way.

you're not being asked to learn obscure math research topics. linear algebra, calculus, and other math topics encountered in undergrad are foundational to everything in the modern world

>>100114237
>you are proud of your ignorance
I know that ranges can be remapped and whether it's -1 to 1 or 0 to 1 it's all irrelevant, maybe it's interesting to know that maybe -1 to 1 enables some optimizations somewhere that I couldn't care less about, but it's not relevant.

You colossal faggot, we already use GPU's as magic black boxes, if I wanted to know any of this shit, I'd implement software renderer. Already did this for basic raytracing, it's boring.

>>100114212
Technically you can view an integral substitution as a change in coordinates, so they do go hand in hand every now and then
(This is just one example)

>>100114271
>i wont be able to understand everything so i shouldn't understand some things
you should understand the tools you are working with as a BARE MINIMUM
> I'd implement software renderer. Already did this for basic raytracing, it's boring.
rasterization and whitted-style raytracing are very different in implementation

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>>100114301
>y-you must know how triangles are interpolated in shaders, or something!
I'm just not going to, I will simply not care, ok?

>>100114322
okay. you are outing yourself as ignoramus who refuses to learn, so be it.
what you are probably referring to but have said improperly is interpolating vertex attributes across a triangle using barycentrics.

>>100114358
>muh heckin barycentrics
I implemented shadows without knowing that word, are you mad?

>>100114363
>i refuse to learn things
>why are you calling me dumb
>im actually smart look at this thing i did
okay dude
assuming you just use raster shadow maps: how do you handle perspective aliasing and other sampling issues? im curious.

>>100114394
>shadow maps
you might be actually autistic, I obviously implemented shadows, understood how they work, then went on to learn something else because optimizing shadows for engine I will never make a game in is a waste of time.

>>100114412
why are you avoiding the question? your reply is a complete non-sequitur... what was even the point of quoting me? lol.

>>100114420
I'm not avoiding any question, I'm just assuming that we both know that shadow mapping is just optimization of shadows by basically prerendering them ahead of time, using same math you'd otherwise use at runtime, and therefore there's nothing more to be learned, the math is the same...
But I hope you're just baiting and not actually retarded.

>>100113532
Good morning sir

>>100114433
>I'm just assuming that we both know that shadow mapping is just optimization of shadows by basically prerendering them ahead of time
That's just not true. please read up on the subject. or don't. i dont care.
there are many ways to implement shadows in real time, one of the simplest (and most often used) is rendering things from the point view of the light source into a depth map. you can later sample that depth map when shading to figure out if a point is behind another point seen by the light source (in shadow, depth less or greater than value in depth map, depending on how you render) or not. this is called shadow mapping. whenever you sample a discretized thing, your problem turns into a sampling problem.

>>100114517
yes thanks for repeating what I did, now keep seething about me not prerendering shadow maps and hyperoptimizing everything for common scene view

>>100113555
nobody does calculus by hand
the only people doing calculus by hand are people working on phd tier equations

>>100114191

>Computers that used exclusively numbers and didn't abstract anything
>Not math heavy

How did you get so arrogant while being completely wrong about everything? It arguably made the math more difficult because precision and calc functions were so resource heavy so you had to think of ways around the problem with clever math tricks.

It's either necessary or not. Math isn't a passive skill, if you don't use it for 6-12 months, it's just fucking gone and the grade is a waste of time. But if you struggle in every other course because of it, you better pay attention.
The other thing you need to realize is that mathematicians are purists by nature. Asking them to make their courses more practical and/or related to CS is the worst insult imaginable (so don't!). A course held by mathfags will always leave you wondering why you're even there.

>>100114526
actually trolling. you did not read what i wrote. can't even be bothered to read a short paragraph before replying to it. pathetic.

>>100114568
it's like mathfags actually do not understand human language

>>100114576
shadow mapping is not a prerendering thing. it's probably what you're doing if you "implemented shadows" in real-time rendering.

>>100113566
if you're attempting 3d physics without calc 1 you're an idiot who will end up with a premade solution. Been awhile since linear but I remember thinking it would also apply very well with 3d games. Plus it proves you're not an actual retard that can't finish calc 1

>>100113599
No. Please don't talk about things you don't know anything about.
All modern graphic engines are based on the exact same PBR equations. You don't need to integrate or derive anything. They all use the exact same equations.
Knowing how to optimize those equations is what matters, which doesn't involve any kind of multivariable calc.

You do see calculus in some other areas of computer graphics but it's almost always differential equations, which you also don't solve by hand. However this is completely unrelated to computer science in general, this is 100% computer graphics. It's like calling aerodynamic simulations computer science because they're done with computers, even though no CS graduate is expected to know how to simulate an airfoil

>>100114603
>using shadow maps
>not prerendering
ok buddy, I wonder how I can use something that doesn't exist outside a shader tinting pixel colour

Reading this thread, it seems a lot of people are mistaking vector calculus aka multivariable calculus for vector arithmetic
Surely you guys can't be that retarded, right?

>>100113723
> Math is just a tool for solving problems.
> Why would anyone want to specialize in the tool
Because the more you know the tool, the more you are able to use it in order to solve problems you dingus

>>100114644
>vector calculus
differential forms and stokes theorem are all you need

>>100113532
CS is math field, knowing math is kinda mandatory.
Imagine asking why you need mechanics for engineering.

>>100114623
if you have a surface parmetrization z = f(u, v) then the normal vector is the cross product of the two partial derivatives with respect to each of the variables.
this is just one application of vector calculus in computer graphics.

>>100114665
I’ve used stokes for some things that are in no way related to computer science. There’s just no point in wasting time learning calculus for cs in general.
Besides the whole approach to teaching calculus is wrong. More time should be spent on the intuition and understanding and less on mechanical solving which is a skill that 99% of students will never use again
If you tell me that the intuition for stokes theorem can have plenty of used I could maybe agree, but I won’t agree with the way calculus is taught to students not enrolled in physics, or math of course

>>100114635
You know nothing, Jon Snow.

>>100114706

I do agree with this, I would have liked to see more application of the math I was learning in my math classes as a CS student, but I also want to get a really deep understanding of the subject if I can, not just brush over the details like most CS centric math classes will do.

>>100114554
You still need to know how it works.

>>100114684
So? Nobody cares. You don’t even deal with parametrized surfaces you deal with flat triangles and all the equations that you need are out there in the open.
Unless you’re researching new ways of rendering or whatever you don’t need any of that. And it makes no sense to teach 100% of students something that only 0.00001% will actually use

>>100114713
it seems like I know more than you do when all you can do is read wikipedia and give obscure specific namings of things that I never needed to know because I didn't need to larp as intellectual on /g/

>>100114738
>shadow mapping is obscure naming
you really are an idiot.

>>100114322
>i'm a retarded subhuman and one hundred percent pround of it
The absolute state of /g/, this place has been overrun by/pol/niggers

>>100114727
I can totally understand that. But that’s something that individual students looking to learn more should lean by themselves. It’s like I tried to force everyone to learn circuits because they’re obviously related to CS and I have an interested in them
Which I do btw but I learned in my spare time.

>>100114747
that's not what I referring to at all but I understand that chatgpt cannot follow context more than one or two messages back
>>100114764
go back to >>>/sci/, Science & Math, because Math isn't science

>>100114733
>what is a heightmap
another example: SDF are a 3d parametrization that is very useful for many graphics techniques. in that case the normal vector is just the gradient of the function.

100% humiliation ritual. They had to to through it so you’re going to go through it too

>>100114781
>OH MY FAUCI, a heckin matrix with vectors in it is such advanced math!
notice how mathfags larp about how everyone is retarded for not caring about math, but all things actually used in real world are so trivial lmao

>>100113605
not everything is linear

>>100114814
what even. rent free.

>>100114781
Now what percentage of CS graduates will ever work on implementing unique SDF libraries? And what percentage of them will ever implement their own unique solution instead of copy pasting an algorithm from a book?

>>100113532
>calculus a required course for computer science
easy
>it filters retards (you can literally chat gpt your way out of every other exam and assignment after passing this)
>you most likely will encounter it in books about random shit
>you might encounter it in future classes, like algorithms&ds or statistics etc.

>>100114781
I don’t give a shit what an SDF mathematically is. In computer graphics it’s just a quad tree with a for loop calculating the distance from each voxel. There’s zero, zero calculus involved

>>100114833
a university education in computer science has nothing to do with work

>>100114827
bro, a png is actually a matrix with quaternions in it, holy shit each color is a coordinate in 4 dimensional space, wow unreal math is so gemmy

>>100114857
at least we agree on that

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>>100114853
>in computer graphics it's just something simple
mathsisters, we get humiliated every time...

>>100114857
Then why is a CS degree required for most jobs?

>>100114914
it's another filter

>>100114914
Don't make me say it anon.

>>100114865
apparently there is significant overlap between being a poltard and having webdev bootcamper "i want money" "i hate knowledge" mentality. i am not surprised.
>>100114853
that is a special use case. you also sometimes work with undiscretized (well, to the extent that floating point numbers are undiscretized) SDFs. either way, understanding the general analytic version is important for understanding the discrete special case version.
>>100114833
if you want your game to run fast, you will have to implement a custom solution purpose-built for your use case. you have a toolbag of techniques and concepts that you apply in whatever way best suits your requirements.

>>100113532
Computer science is a misnomer. It's not about computers, it's not a science, and most certianly it's not about software. It's about computing. It should be named something else like Computing Methods, idk.

Someone post the gif.

>>100114934
I neither post on /pol/ nor I ever tried to make money off writing software. In fact everything I ever posted in public was licensed under AGPL+NIGGER

>>100114934
There's literally no such thing as an undiscretized (what kind of word is that even? just say continuous) SDF in computer graphics. First of all it would take petabytes of RAM, second of all I've worked with SDFs in different fields and they're always discrete.

>>100113532
It is needed for its application in Statistics and the study of data structures. At minimum, a cs student needs to be able to understand limits

>>100114974
I never used limits in my entire life, but I do understand them, what's the usecase?

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>>100113532
CS is handheld by programming languages, interpreters, compilers, libraries, packages, etc so there's really no need to learn any math, just find a better tool.
If you're being asked to explain how the tools work, ideally you don't want to look stupid by saying "I don't know", the basics of linear algebra (matrix calculations) and calculus (optimization and derivation) should help you fake it enough to make it. If you're scared of looking stupid then go read documentation or something, I don't know, I just make stakeholders laugh/smile and that's enough to get most things done.
If you want to build the tools then you're in a creative space, maybe you need calculus, maybe you need linear algebra, maybe you need neither, but what you do need is the ability to figure out what's best, and that requires a wide breadth of experience and knowledge as well as a community to consult when needed.

>>100114985
Personally I've used integral calculus more often in cs that limits. I don't think I've used a limit once my entire career

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Gradient descent

>>100114965
i use the term undiscretized because nothing on a computer is truly continuous.
here is an undiscretized (or continuous) SDF:

// sphere at the origin
float sphere(float3 p, float r) {  return length(p) - r; }

you can get a very accurate result at any point. sampling is not an issue.

>>100114985
They're going to tell you that it's to understand statistics, but you wouldn't need to know calculus to understand the statistics taught to CS students if it weren't for the fact that they teach them in a calculus centric way.
It's all fucked, really.
Just speedrun you degree and never look back, academy is a festering pit of rotten ideas and stubborn boomers

>>100114947
you are a /pol/tard in spirit.

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>>100115040
I never went to university and don't plan to, I don't see why I should engage in academia post 2020
>>100115048
alright, given pic related, and you being a mathfag, anally define "/pol/tard", no time limit.

You signed up for science. You get science.
If you wanted to be a programmer there are different ways to educate yourself like academies or simply working in the field.
The math isn't really necessary but it helps

>>100115040
>Just speedrun you degree and never look back, academy is a festering pit of rotten ideas and stubborn boomers
And never get into arguments with anyone defending academia, they're most likely going to become academics themselves.
Your college years are best spent partying, gaming or doing whatever the fuck you want, just make sure you pass all tests.

>>100115063
a /pol/tard is someone who ascribes or pretends (for the lulz) to ascribe to extremist political views often promoted on /pol/.

>>100115085
I am not aware of views /pol/ holds and so I now question your love for math when you didn't define that.

>>100113948
You would need calculus to predict the movement, but when you are simulating the world you simply apply the forces during the simulation and it will produce a result close to what calculus says should happen.

>>100115094
you made me laugh. thanks. you're alright webdev bootcamper.

>>100115069
Not that anon. Are you prepared to defend every CS academic program? Do you have no criticism?

>>100115104
most code I wrote was in C++ and didn't ever connect to internet

>>100115118
why not? i think you should add web3 to your game.

>>100115106
No. As I said I don't think a CS degree is necessary to work in the field but that's true for a lot of classical college degrees.

>>100115138
I never made a game and don't plan to.

>>100115153
You said "You signed up for science, you get science" as if any CS academic program will provide rigorous "science" and apply it appropriately in the context of CS, but I'm not sure either are true in most cases.

I don't get the hype around Calc. We do Real Analysis in my country instead, and It wasn't too difficult.
I had a harder time in my mandatory Sociology class. And it made me suspect that I'm slightly autistic.

>>100115406
It's just amerilards being retarded. I studied real analysis and linear algebra in high school and i didn't find them difficult

>>100115406
americans aren't obligated to learn calculus in high school so they treat it as this high level thing. in other countries it's treated like trig, something everybody was taught in school.
>Sociology
yeah i found humanities courses aren't conceptually difficult but do take some effort in terms of sheer amount of work.

>>100113532
Calculus is an optimization of every single topic you learned beforehand, it's not difficult either. I mean, they teach it in American high schools anon.

>>100113532
if you can't pass calculus you're either sub 85 iq or a lazy faggot and you should probably rethink your career choices

>>100113532
Its an IQ filter. Its also mostly useless for CS, they just shove it in science courses to weed out people.

>>100113532
Having a formal framework to help reason about how things change over some interval is helpful in many scenarios.

a degree is a tax on employability. more prerequisites = a higher tax.

>>100113555
You need calculus
>>100113566
Give me an actual explanation for why this is true
>What is physics?
>What is linear algebra
>What is geometry?
>What is trigonometry?
>What is...
In case you're really THAT fucking retarded.

You guys didn't do calculus in high school? We had up to ODEs at mine.

>>100115754
"Pre-calculus" was a college-level credit when I was in high school (2011).

>>100114865
mahcucks wasted their youths studying irrelevant theorems and formulas nobody gives a flying fuck about and can't even get a job nor pussy so of course they gotta cope about it and go "shieet you don't even know what a matrix is it's like virtual reality artificial intelligence quaternions brooo"

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>>100115063
>>100115085
poltard and poltroons (/pol/ troons, trannies) are also a reference to pic rel

>>100115831
why the ebonics?

>>100115891
I'm mocking the way zoomyzoomzooms speak. They're all ni**er worshipping cuckaloid faggaloids.

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>>100113532
>Why is calculus a required course
>Is it just some kind of humiliation ritual
CS is a subset of math. I don't want to use software written by a person who can't pass 1 fucking calculus course.
Also if you're white you should study it, that's a given.

>>100113532
>Why is calculus a required course for computer science?
It's required for most STEM majors. Engineering, Physics, Chemistry (sometimes) etc. Why should CS be any different?

Is it just some kind of humiliation ritual that faggot college professors like to force on everybody because they were forced to go through it too?
Not really, sure it's how it's been done classically and perhaps one could argue that something like just take discrete math or basic combinatorics would be a viable alternative, but you would still bitch about that too.


What does memorizing all the different specific intricacies of how to integrate functions by hand possibly have to do with writing software?
It doesn't necessarily, but it opens your mind to a different way of thinking. You could also write software to do those things yourself.

>I honestly don't understand it and I've never seen anyone offer a rational explanation for it.

I'm a math professor. We don't even really want to teach calculus ourselves, it's just part of how the curriculum is structured. If anything I'd rather be paid to do my research and be left alone, but we have to eat somehow and this is how the system is. Just because you hate or dislike mathematics doesn't make it irrelevant to learn or to at least have some basic exposure to. I'd argue that mathematical thinking is valuable and if you're able to do it, quite honestly, you'll probably intellectually mog most of your peers. I only studied mathematics throughout my entire career B.S, M.A, Ph.D math but I always had a passing interest and CS and learned a lot of it in my spare time. In fact, a lot of my research interests have close ties to theoretical CS. You never know, I used to feel that way about courses when I was an undergrad but come to appreciate them as I get older or learning certain things helped improve my personal studies.

>>100116598
>but it opens your mind to a different way of thinking
rote doesn't require thinking, rope right now academiafag

>>100116022
this website was written by a jobless NEET in PHP

>>100113555
Dumbass. Just because you implement acceleration doesn't mean you're doing calculus. It's common sense.

Imagine being filtered by Calculus.

>>100113555
Calc isn't even difficult. Faggot machine learning courses are 100x more mathematical. Just learn it, it's overblown in terms of difficulty, or the profs are being gay in overcomplicating. Look up professor Leonard and put in the time, easy pass.

>>100113555
Calc isn't even difficult. Faggot machine learning courses are 100x more mathematical. Just learn it, it's overblown in terms of difficulty, or the profs are being gay in overcomplicating. Look up professor Leonard and put in the time, easy pass.

>Because someone will be gay
Why do you need it? You might never need it. But there may come a day depending on what you do, that it's needed. And since you have time to learn it now, just do it and have it out of the way. You'll be less of a brainlet by the end of it, at the very least.

Because if you can't understand integrals and gradients you're too stupid to do anything with a computer even after you learn to program.

>>100113566
Suppose you want to calculate the position of an accelerating car each frame.
The naive solution would be to simply add up acceleration/timestep to the velocity and then add the velocity/timestep to the position in the previous frame to compute the position in the current frame.
But the problem is that by doing that you are going to get a wrong result, the displacement frame by frame will be slightly lower than it should be, because you are going to be disregarding the increase in velocity that happens between each frame. For example if the velocity in one frame was 1m/s and in the next frame it was 2m/s, you are going to be disregarding the fact that in between both frames the velocity was 1.5, and you are going to be computing the position as if the velocity was 1 the whole timestep and it instantly jumped to 2 in the next frame.
So over time it gives you a lower average velocity. For example Over 3 frames, at which the velocity was 1, 2 and 3, doing it correctly gives you an average of 2. But doing it the naive way gives you an average velocity of 1.5, because from the first frame to the second the velocity you used to compute displacement was 1, and from the second frame to the third the velocity you used to compute displacement was 2, and so on.
The right way to do it is to calculate position as the integral of acceleration.
So velocity is the integral of a constant, so t+v0, t being the number of seconds and v0 the initial velocity.
And position is the integral of t, which is t^2/2+v0*t+p0, p0 the initial position.
So if position in the first frame was 0 and velocity was 1m/s with an acceleration of 1m/s^2 and you are pushing 1fps, position in the next frame is going to be 0.5+1+0=1.5 meters. With the naive approach the position at the second frame would be 1 meters, because you would do t*v0 and v0 in the first frame was 1.
I agree you wont do integrals by hand, but I think it's worth it to not treat CAS as magic. It's only a semester or two.

>>100121030
Why would anyone need to simulate physics at a higher frame rate than what's being drawn on screen? The naive solution works perfectly fine for every use case.

>>100113532
Is this the mathlet thread?

>>100121117
Because with the naive solution, the vehicle will accelerate faster when running a higher framerate.
This is obviously an unfair advantage in multiplayer games, or in single player games it can make levels harder when playing on a low end computer.
This actually happened in the real world, for example in GTA San Andreas there was a level where you were in a bike and had to catch up to a plane taking off and the level was much harder with low framerates. And also not using the built-in frame limiter caused all kinds of wonky physics.

>>100113532
A decent grasp on calculus is necessary for many things (machine learning, computer graphics) and studying how to do it by hand forces you to both understand the concepts well and really git gud at basic algebra.
Also I suspect it's a decent filter to find out who is actually interested in scientific and technical things vs who just wants an SWE job for the $$$.

>>100121283
This only happens with bad game loops that tie update rate to render rate. I'm surprised so many AAA games make this mistake. "Fix Your Timestep!" should be mandatory reading for game developers.

>>100121283
Not him, but do most games actually do this (use analytic integration for basic movement)?
I thought most just run at a fixed timestep, potentially independent of the render loop (interpolating positions if rendering is much faster than physics).

>>100113608
>CS is a branch of mathematics.
Mathematicians like to claim everything is a branch of mathematics. They're full of shit, as usual.
CS has some roots in math, but also in EE and psychology so it's very much not just math. It is its own thing.

>>100121168
>tfw I had to get out pen and paper to check the op image

>>100121369
>>100121412
Fair enough, I have no idea how most games do it.
But what do you do if either there are so many entities that the physics engine cannot always keep up, or some other process in the computer is hogging the CPU?
I suppose then the update rate goes down, and then the fixed rate is not fixed anymore.

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>>100114945
don't got the original, but here's a new version from the youtube video of the MIT speech (https://youtu.be/watch?v=2Op3QLzMgSY)

>>100115753
Linear algebra doesn't stricly need calculus though, neither does geometry or even trigonometry

>>100121683
Then framerate drops, but any unbounded system will eventually hit a breaking point regardless of the game loop. You have to either design your game so that there are limits allowing target hardware to maintain 60 fps, or you let the autist who wants to drop 10000 physically simulated cabbages in his house have 2 fps.

>>100114025
It's just jeets, anon. If it's not a shortcut to scamming somebody by doing the bare minimum to pretend to competence, they aren't interested.

>>100113532
>picrel
that's literally high school curriculum, retard

>>100113896
ironically, I failed engineering but I had no problem passing algebra... and I almost literally slept through it lmao.
I loved algebra, I even had dreams with that shit.

>>100113532
To filter retards. Do you need calculus to make it in the field? No. Does the field need you? Also no.

>>100113532
>computer science
>writing software
these two are completely unrelated

>>100113555
okay, reddit

Isn't calc a high school course?

>>100125414
Not if your high school was grossly incompetent.

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Calculus is literally THE most based human invention thus far
Absolute numeric magic I tell you. The second most based invention is algorithms

>>100113754
That's been the mentality since C/C++ became a thing, so since before you were born. The wheel doesn't need to be rehashed for the X * million(th) time.

>>100113532
You don't need much math. Math fags haven't produced anything of value in computing for the past 60+ years, just look as the state of haskell and how it's not used for anything relevant (the language is the mathfag wet dream). Even algorithms, data structures and AI only require a little bit of math (which you can learn in an hour or two as and when you need it).
>Inb4 some mathfag seething
It's not my fault you wasted your life on irrelevant bullshit. Maybe you should have gone into a more practical field where you get to apply a small amount of useful mathematics instead of fuelling your ego with esoteric bullshit no one needs to know, you're the gaymers of the academic world.

I just wish my math courses in uni weren't this FUCKING BORING I HATE IT I HAD MUCH MORE FUN LEARNING CALCULUS IN HIGH SCHOOL THAN THIS SHIT FFS

anyone who says humiliation ritual is an insecure faggot
filtered mathlet retard

>>100125511
you are not working on interesting things and it's painful how much it shows. go back to changing button colors wagie. you'll get laid off next time stock drops by 5%.

>I hate calculus
>Use delta time to multiply speed to calculate for variable framerate
>this is apparently calculus
Sounds to me like a presentation problem. Like how people try to learn code by starting with code, rather than processors.

>>100113532
it's a holdover from the days when computer science was intended to lead into academia
calculus isn't hard but it is a waste of time for the entire undergrad population since none of them are paying for a path to tenure
i fully expect it to be dropped within the next 10 years as the universities reorient their programs to what their students (customers) actually want: a middle class programming career
the old cs path is following humanities into the pit of irrelevancy as more students prioritize industry over research

>>100113532
If you are to stupid for calculus, you are to stupid to be a programmer.

>>100113532
>humiliation ritual
FUCK OFF WITH THE MEMES YOU FAGGOT

>>100126220
Calculus was invented to solve physics problems. It was developed pretty much at the same time as newtonian mechanics. And it's the foundation of all classical physics involving movement, heat or electromagnetism.
But depending on your course you might focus mainly on applications or on proofs.
Since CS is not engineering but is more on the mathy side of things, it makes sense that calculus for CS graduates will focus more on the proofs and algebra rather than the applications.

kek

>>100113532
A simple example, neural networks are trained by calculating a derivative and moving towards its direction.
Other machine learning models use probability distributions and these require calculus as well.

>>100113582
Learn your math

>>100121485
>t. mathlet

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>>100121485
>CS has roots in psychology

>>100113532
>memorizing
You're doing it wrong.

But I think you're right, calculus isn't too useful for cs fags, at least not on the level typically taught.
It does come up every now and then but for that it could be approached differently.
At least at my university, math for cs is taught by math professors with no interest in teaching cs students, so of course they don't bother adjusting the way they teach.

>>100113532
You agree that AI/ML is part of CS, right?
How in the FUCK do you expect to do ML without even knowing what a gradient is, you coping mathlet retard?

>>100128468
CS is discreet math

>>100128489
Okay then.
How in the FUCK do you expect to do CS without even knowing what a binomial probability distribution is, you coping mathlet retard?

>>100128583

from scipy.stats import binom

>>100128709
Okay, and how do you do it in C++?
And who developed scipy, if not a computer scientist?

>>100113532
My professor was asked that question by a student. He said Calculus was a filter. You take it in the freshmen year so you can realize early on that you're too dumb for STEM.

>>100128768
Why tf would you be doing data science in C++, you brainlet? Unless you're the one writing the libraries, you should be using Python, R, Matlab, SAS, etc.

>>100113532
For anyone struggling with Calculus I recommend "Calculus Made Easy" by Silvanus P. Thompson published in 1910 and 1914 (2nd Edition).
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/33283/33283-pdf.pdf

Math fags like to use cryptic symbols and refuse to explain thoroughly what they mean.

> You should know this by now
I don't, so where do I learn what that symbols mean?
> There is no dictionary of symbols. In fact the symbols mean different things in different branches of math.
Okay, where do I learn what the symbols mean?
>You should know them already.

Math fags have been like this since Pythagoras and his faggy mystery school.

Calculus is really easy. There is absolutely nothing difficult about it except for math fags using cryptic symbols and schools demanding you memorize a bunch of formulas for no good reason (hide them in the ancient TI86 calculator like everybody else).

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I dropped out of High School and didn't even pass Algebra 1, and yet I make $55,000/year at age 20 as a SWE. Never used any math beyond like, 7th grade arithmetic.
I kinda wish I had learned trigonometry though, because I'm making a game as a hobby and I don't know how to do any of the lighting/3D shit. For example, I'm making a stealth game and it's pretty much impossible for you to implement visual detection without trig.

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>>100113532
>You NEED it, GOY!!
>Don't ask why, you just do, OK???
>You WILL learn math, GOY!!!

>>100113532
Computer science =/= computer engineering

>>100129461
Anon I dropped out of high school too
I dropped out because I was too retarded to do math
Please enlighten me on how to make it in life, I'm a NEET rn and every single job offer requires at least an high school diploma because (((reasons)))

>>100113555
>>100113566
>>100113532

almost nobody will actually make a game engine from scratch though, especially today

things were different 10 years ago

maybe the college needs to change to accommodate modernity to let more people graduate from computer science (thousands will get filtered out by the calculus because lets face it, typical human being has IQ90 and calculus requires 100)

>>100129501
Yes, you need a GED, I got mine when I was 18. It's not super hard, took me like 3 weeks of studying, and that was after not being in school for 4 years.
I then got CompTIA A+ and Security+ certified (I'd also recommend Network+ but since I already got a job offer I didn't bother) and started working in IT for a smallish company. That's how I got my foot in the door in the tech sector. That job sort of transformed into me doing end-to-end development, which helped me get a SWE job down the line. So I guess I got lucky. But it's all about resume experience, so I'd recommend just getting certified and doing IT for a bit.

>>100129783
I'm an europoor and over here there's no GED, only finishing high school
I'll just ropemaxx I guess

>>100113532
The only reason you WOULDN'T need calc is if youre a nigger webdev of any kind

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>>100125414
No, only a small percentage of high school students take calculus.

>>100129822
Just fucking lie on your resume LMAO, at both of my jobs, neither one asked for my high school diploma or GED. And my current job is at a pretty big company and they didn't ask.

Maximum likelihood is the basis of all optimization no? Which relies on calculus, because you take the derivative of the -log function? Or am I being brainleto right now

>>100126239
Looks like they are dropping calculus from the next version of the CS curriculum guidelines that the ACM publishes every decade and making it optional, and even then they only recommend Calculus I for the most rigorous CS curriculum. It's on page 135 here:
>https://csed.acm.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/Version-Gamma.pdf

>>100128931

Deploying high performance real time machine learning systems

>>100129886
Is there a version of this that works for getting into grad school? I want to get a masters in CS to maximize my chances of employment but I have a degree in art and a shit GPA if they average all my transcripts because I flunked out of college my first try so I can never meet the requirements. Any way to fake your academic record that actually works?

>>100125414
>>100125426
>>100129871
I remember my last year in HS. they didn't teach us calc at all. I was one of the best students there and was preparing for tests to go to uni.
I had multiple math teachers that year, the last one being this young girl. I asked her if I should learn calc by myself and she said no, that it would be taught to me in uni. long story short I failed calc multiple times in uni and dropped out. fucking bitch could have just said "if you can, yeah, the basics, don't go too deep" and would have been enough, but noo...

>>100113582
>Nobody gets a CS degree to become a fucking mathematician.
Too bad, that's pretty much exactly what a computer scientist does.

>>100130488
Yeah the maths & physics pace at uni will one shot most people if they haven't been practicing on that stuff beforehand.

>>100113555
>You need calculus to make a game engine
Which 0.0001% of programmers will ever do. CS is a massive con.

>>100128931
Binomial distributions are exclusive to data science?
Data science is not a subset of computer science?
C++ is not a language for data science?
Computer scientists can't develop libraries for data scientists?

What the fuck kinda copes are you coming up with now?

>>100129871
Most high school students haven't finished high school yet.

>>100131272
Yeah mostly

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>>100113532
>ctrl-f sequence
>ctrl-f series
did no one else here go to college? jesus christ.

>>100132079
ive only seen sequences and series applied indirectly through things like fourier series. people irl dont ever figure out taylor series for approximating functions, they just fit a polynomial instead (very cool video about this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFKFoGiGlXQ). i think analyzing convergence is done in some cases but it's different from the simplified version taught in undergrad calculus classes.

>>100113599
you are absolutely wrong. it's just matrix multiplication and plug in the values into the illumination equations.

stop lying, you never made a game

>>100132140
all true, but there's a lot of utility in being able to recognize a continuous problem that may be approximated by a series (and thus converted into a discrete problem).

i freely admit i'm not clever enough to have figured this stuff out on my own, but i've applied this principal in numerous areas over my career.

>>100132262
yeah that's sort of what fourier series are in some way. you take a weird (but periodic) analog signal you don't know how to deal with, turn it into an infinite sum of sinusoids that you know how to deal with, and then you only deal with the first few harmonics as an approximation.
>>100132261
matrix multiplication is not really relevant to calculating illumination, unless you're talking about the 3d transformation done to transform into coordinate space that is more convenient for lighting. also, what illumination equations? there are many different models. if you're serious about making something good, you should probably understand a bunch of them to know their pros and cons. not to mention that what you're referring to is only for direct lighting for a limited subset of materials (simple diffuse surfaces), once you start talking about other more complicated effects or global illumination the math becomes a lot less compartmentalized and isolated. especially if you're doing real-time global illumination, that is a difficult sampling problem.

>Computer Science degree requires calculus
>Physics with Calculus for good measure
>Calculus II to really put the screws to midwits
>People who can actually complete these get the good jobs, which by virtue ethics is the correct outcome
tldr you're right, dialate immediately

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>>100129461
>I kinda wish I had learned trigonometry though

>>100130050
>things that never happened

>>100113532
nigga are you too retarded to not understand calc 1?

If you only want to be a code monkey and don’t think you need even a just a basic understanding of the underlying concepts of the libraries you’re using then you should drop out because that’s not what computing science is.
You should be able to find a software engineer bachelor from an applied sciences university or similar. It’ll actually be what you want and also be a more appropriate level for you. Or maybe you can try a bootcamp. They stream that shit on twitch now and I doubt it’ll make much of a difference to any employers since your attitude will have you end up working on electron apps just like all the other jeets.

>>100113723
Because better tools don't come out of nowhere.

>>100113723
other way around.

Mathlet:
velocity += acceleration*dt
position += velocity*dt

MathGOD:
velocity += acceleration * dt
position += velocity * dt + 0.5*acceleration * dt*dt

>>100113532
ABSOFUCKINGLUTELY! It's never been more important to understand calculus. Because you need calculus to understand how deep learning works. What really makes deep learning work is calculating a bunch of derivatives.

if rome didn't need calculus, neither do I.

>>100135973
Rome would have loved calculus

>>100121030
you dont even need calculus to solve this, just do half the movement at the start of the frame and half at the end

>>100113532
ITT:
>muh gayms
this is the thread where all the retards who joined CS to make games come to brag about having passed some 99% useless math classes LMAO

>>100113716
I'm stealing this quote

>>100113532
Math is the easiest part of an engineering degree, imo
CS has less math I think

>>100137299
they didn't need it though

>>100113605
shut the fuck up illiterate nigger. A game engine literally models the physical world and they have to be sophisticated and they are getting better. You need to compute derivatives for most of the things related to motion, for a system of motion, solving differential equations, fluid simulation, multivariable calculus, and partial differential equations.

>>100139446
i don't see how that's relevant to my turn based hentai rpgs

>>100140802
anon, what if you're custom engine turn based hentai rpg needed some sexy dynamic animations/physics (e.g. boob jiggling)? You'll need derivatives and such for that.

>>100121030
https://github.com/erincatto/box2d/blob/411acc32eb6d4f2e96fc70ddbdf01fe5f9b16230/src/dynamics/b2_island.cpp#L211
Doesn't Box2D just use the naive strategy you mentioned to integrate velocity? Seems good enuf for most cases unless building a highly specialized engine.

Not trying to knock it's usefulness, but I haven't run into a case where I needed calculus really in all my years of programming. Linear algebra on the other hand, I ended up learning a good bit of on my own. It is massively useful and became a solid part of my repertoire of skills I use all the time. Great for game dev or anything graphical.

Also, that is just one very small example of how it's needed. Whereas linear algebra is extremely widely applicable. Matrix operations, 2d and 3d transforms.

I feel like if i could find a use for calc I'd learn it

>>100139446
Except computers are completely discrete aka no calculus.

>>100113532
>Why is calculus a required course for computer science? Is it just some kind of humiliation ritual that faggot college professors like to force on everybody because they were forced to go through it too?
You could say the same about 75% of any school/university curriculum (and you would be right).

>>100129362
I ironically like the "For Dummies" math books.

>>100113555
>make a game engine
why would ever want to do that

>>100113608
why else would you be there?

>>100113723
Computers are tools to solve problems, too.
Fuck it, everything is a tool that doesn't need to be understood so just learn nothing and jack off all day

>>100113858
>This is the best collection of books and resources for learning everything there is to know about computer science
Lmao

>>100113532
this is bait it can't be real

im an econ major and did fine in calc. if you got filtered by it you must be REALLY retarded, because i am a retard

>>100137444
THIS. fuck off back to >>>/v/ you faggots

>>100114085
>knowledge doesn't degrade over time
It sort of does, actually. If you never actually work with, use, or apply some abstract knowledge, it will eventually be forgotten. You would still be able to relearn it far quicker the next time you encounter it. But knowledge does degrade, slowly. I think there is definitely a balance to be struck between pointless studying and learning only practical skills.

On the two extreme ends you have people who learn only frameworks/libraries/syntax with no understanding of any principles and are just copy pasting code together from stackoverflow. On the other end you have someone going monk mode studying extremely particular and niche subjects despite the fact that they will never actually use their obscure knowledge to accomplish anything.

Its all about balance.

>>100145020
without math you can't even understand many of the most famous algorithms, even basic terminal stuff would be much slower than something made by who know math

I know mostly the lowest iq autists still frequent this website, but holy fuck is /g/ full of brainlets

>>100145114
>muh algorithms
why is this board so obsessed with programming? not everything in tech is programming
even then, other anons are right, you can simply use existing libs written by other people. most shit in tech doesn't require advanced knowledge of math or algorithms...

>>100145308
I'm not obsessed with anything, we're talking about programming in this thread. You have to use algorithms soon or later if you want to do fast programs

>>100113532
Do you want to model a swimming pool?

>>100145360
>we're talking about programming in this thread
we are talking about CS and its applications. you know, when you get a job, you have to build shit. that isn't necessarily a program, can be a network or whatever. you might need algorithms for that, but most probably you won't use math, or even hard algos.

>>100113624
Then you should have gone with software engineering.

Proofs are the most retarded thing about math. Why do I need to prove something that someone else has already proven?

>>100145446
>when you get a job
>you might need algorithms
ok, what if one day you need them and suddenly you remember beeing a retarded gorilla nigger?
If you wan't to be called a computer scientist or whatever you need math, because you need to know how to do shit, "when you get a job".

>>100145511
you look them up? if you aren't a brainlet you might be able to implement them without much effort. sure, you might miss on some optimizations. who cares? it's not like the ones paying you really know anything about tech... unless you work in a big tech company, and even then, I'm not sure.
also, again, why do you faggots assume that everyone in this board or every CS student will work as a programmer at all?

>>100145644
if you don't know math you might be much slower at understanding an algorithm than someone who actually have knowledge. I don't understand why you insist on wanting to do things in the worst way. I rather doing stuff the best way I can.
>why do you faggots assume that everyone in this board or every CS student will work as a programmer at all?
I'm not assuming that, I'm just saying you must know how to do stuff related to your degree, properly.

>>100145773
>if you don't know math you might be much slower at understanding an algorithm than someone who actually have knowledge
what? why? I'm ignorant. why would you need math to understand an algo, unless the algo itself relates to math? for example, you don't need math to understand sorting algorithms.

>>100145906
Because math is basically logic, learning it makes your brain faster. Also you're supposed to already know and understand many algorithm at first glance if you studied them at school. You maybe understand something new in a much slower pace than someone who already has experience and skill.
That's how I view the matter by the way, you should be knowledgeable for being valuable, not only in CS related stuff, but in any kind of work.

>>100146099
so your point is that you don't actually NEED the math, you need to think logically, and math teaches you that.
we are in an agreement here. but AFAIU the point of this thread wasn't about whether or not you need to think logically, it was about USING MATH. and people are right to say that you don't actually need it most of the time, if ever.

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claude 3, please summarize this thread for me, tell me the minimum math/calculus needed if i want to be a programmer who knows some fundamentals and isn't just a code monkey, but also doesn't have to do that much work.

>>100146132
It depends on the work you're going to do. They include math in the CS course because those who hire you might need a person proficient in math and I don't see anything wrong in learning math alongside something that has "science" in it's name.

>>100146198
I mean, sure, but those jobs are usually specialized. web devs are devs, and they simply copy other shit. there are tons of other jobs that don't require math. and even those that do require a little bit of advanced math, you could even ask someone else to do it for you, I'd guess...
I'm trying to generalize, to make anons admit that most programming jobs don't really need university-level math.

>>100145504
Its about understanding the ideas underlying the structure of mathematics, the how and why. To be fair, people did mathematics just fine for most of civilized history without relying on rigorous proofs. And they were still right about 95% of the time. It's best not to miss the forest for the trees. The actual valuable skill to be gained isn't so much writing a rigorous proof as it is learning how to explore and investigate abstract ideas and systems.

>>100146135
Well, what's the answer?

>>100146270
The actual root issue underlying this entire disageeement can be summarized really simple in a way everyone will agree on: Universities should have remained as institutions of higher learning, not gatekeepers of being able to enter the job market.

Programming is way too fucking vague. You might be planning out some elaborate networking scheme or working on the implementation details for a highly technical contract. Or maybe you are shitting out webapps and corporate software.

Both involve programming, but only one really benefits from strong knowledge of theoretical CS and experience working with mathematical systems.

In both cases, you may benefit from having that knowledge. But really the benefit is far more limited in the latter case, and not really large enough to justify the time cost.

Really that's the whole problem. Coding jobs are basically blue collar. But the current system requires coders and programmers to take the same course as computer scientists to get a job. And thats where the resentment comes from.

>>100113532
Yes, it is sort of a humiliation ritual, basically this: >>100115673
It also is a good training for your brain. Like how in order to be good at basketball you also need to lift weights even though there are no weights in the actual game. They could use something other than math for this purpose, but math happens to be useful in any field related to science.

>>100135678
>position += velocity * dt + 0.5*acceleration * dt*dt
What does this do?

Failed male thread. Ability in math is directly connected to your ability to be a developer and the degree of your manhood.