I'm going to start teaching my son to program relatively soon. Some old farts on the BBS I frequent recommended that we start with the Commodore 64, but it's rare in my country so I picked up an MSX2 instead since it's very similar. I like the idea and I agree with their reasoning, but I'm curious what your thoughts are.What would you personally start your kid on? What did you personally start on?Since we're doing the MSX2, his first programming language will be BASIC and we'll go back and dabble in assembly when he's ready. Eventually we will move on to the Raspberry Pi and I'll teach him modern programming languages. Or, if the MSX3 launches before we finish with the MSX2 than we'll do that instead because it's supposed to be a competitor to the Pi and I like what's been revealed so far.I'm not looking for advice, I'm just looking for discussion.
>>100186889start with BASIC yes so your son grasps what programming is, but 8-bit assembly is pointless in 2024, move him onto a useful language for the modern world. those boomers are just nostalgic for their C64s.
>>100186889>I'm going to force my fucking hobby on my kid, because I have these romantic memories of BBSes and early personal computing era, and didn't notice programming has become about as cool as accounting, hard to live off of outside of corporate hell, and most programmers will most likely be replaced by AI by the time he grows upHow about you teach him some non pussy drying, future-proof skill instead?
MSX was a popular platform so there's a lot of resources on it like the C64. And in the end it's not like you're trying to make him a C64/MSX/(Atari8bit/AppleII/TI994A/ZX/etc) wizard. Just a fun, interactive step.Myself, I'd pull the Apple //c out of storage.
>>100187157> those boomers are just nostalgic for their C64sI have no doubt that's the case lol but I do agree with their reasoning. It'll be a great way to teach him about hardware in addition to software and despite it's limitations BASIC surprisingly isn't all that different from modern programming languages.>>100187169>hobbyIt's not a hobby, it's my career and I want to teach it to him so that he always has it as a backup. Besides, even if he doesn't pursue a career in his field it's still a useful skill to have.>romantic memoriesI'm 28, I don't have memories of any of this stuff. I just like old shit and I've only been dialing into BBS' for a little while now.>hard to live off ofDamn, you're that bad? Money comes easy in this field. There's a reason why I own my home in full without debt or a mortgage.>replaced by AII have no doubts that the field will change but programmers will never disappear. Maybe you will since you seem to only know CSS.>future-proof skillsetThat's why we're starting with an 8bit PC and working our way up so that he actually learns how a computer works instead of just learning to fuck around in React.>>100187170My parents had an old apple computer when I was a kid. I wish I remembered what model it was, there's some games I enjoyed playing on it back then.
>>100187347If it had a separate keyboard, IIGSIf it was a compact all in one slab, //c ...if it used 3.5" floppies, //c plus.If the words "open apple" sparks a memory, //eElse it was the II or IIplus, which are very similar visually.
>>100186889IDIOT. GET HIM A CHEAP PC AND TEACH HIM:1. Scratch2. PythonEVEN BASIC SUCKED BACK IN THE DAY, PASCAL WAS BETTER.
>>100186889just get dosbox and qbasic up and running. That's what I did when I started out a decade ago.I highly suggest teaching him algorithm concepts through something like scratch, my teacher actually used PowerPoint animations for this purpose.
>>100187347>>hard to live off of>Damn, you're that bad?I said "hard to live off of outside of corporate hell", you twat. The days when everyone would throw wads of money at a solo dev with a fucking Borland compiler are over.>Money comes easy in this fieldNowhere near as easy as they used to, and there's been a steady downwards trend in case you haven't noticed. By the time your kid grows up, it's gonna be a literal accountant-tier vocation in terms of both money and "coolness".
>>100187494thisGive him QBasic or FreeBASIC and he programs better than average college freshman
>>100187494>>100187558A virtual machine defeats half of the purpose. With this we get to get into hardware including circuits, PCB design, repairs and soldering. You know, fun stuff.
>>100187549>I said "hard to live off of outside of corporate hell"I work from home on my own time and have lots of free time to spend with my family or on hobbies. All of my shit is bought and paid for, including the house. No debt or loans. If you're unable to do the same than it's due to your own shortcomings and has absolutely nothing to do with this field.>easyGetting paid to sit in an air conditioned room all day going click clack on a keyboard with vtubers playing in the background is fucking easy work.>downward trendOk I'm going to assume you're American. In all fairness I've heard about a lot of layoffs in your country so I'll give you that one. But I'm not American, I've got permanent employment and strong workers rights so none of that shit affects me.>coolnessYou keep saying that. How is that even relevant? I don't really care if my kid goes into this as a career or not. I'm teaching him because it's a useful skill to learn, just like basic repair skills, sewing, arithmetic, or how to manage a budget. It's called being a father. And if push ever comes to shove, it gives him backup option in case his own plans (whatever they may be) don't work out.You seem like a lonely bitter cunt.
>>100186889japan, for the love of god get one of these sharp x68000holy crap I didn't even know these existed, only japan had these. too expensive for western europe, australia and even us
>>100188397I run the core through my MiSTer pretty often, it's got a lot of great games.
>>100188433I have just ran them on a regular emulator.. on a pc.. and I am completely blown away by this sysemI would be in heaven as a kid if I had one. do you by chance know of many of these god sold in japan and how many of them are around? prolly cost a fortune now
>>100187494>qbasic>>100187558>QBasiclolmy first encounter with programming mid 90ies...
>>100187157>8-bit assembly is pointlessDo you know what the fuck you were talking about? As a hardware developer we were taught 4 bit assembly and risc V in school. What the fuck do you mean pointless when you, software engineers, make everything too fucking bloat these days.>>100186889You should teach him about electric circuits first before any of this shit.
i wish my dad would teach me something about what he's been doing with those computer guts when i was a kid obsessed with games. i hope your son will appreciate that you spent time teaching him this.
>>100187494what made these 8 bit computers so great, was that basic was just there.. I am too young for thisbut booted it up, you were ready to go.. imagine being a teenager in the early 80ies experiencing all of thisno big ass api's to learn, boilerplate of thousands of lines just to render some polygons on the screen...
>>100186889anon whatever you do, keep him away from ipads.... sigh this generation now. is just ipads..
>>100186889>so I picked up an MSX2 instead since it's very similarit's nothing like the c64>>100187170>MSX was a popular platformnever happened. was barely popular in japan let alone popular outside of that country. the msx experiment was doomed from day one due to the garbage and out of date hardware they used as a base.>>100187157people learned 6502 and z80 assembly because BASIC was fucking garbage. learning assembly for an 8bit cpu in current year is important. you might have failed at life but don't drag others down to your level. stick to coding cancer in java and rust, faggot.>>100187347>it'll be a great way to teach him about hardware in addition to software and despite it's limitations BASIC surprisingly isn't all that different from modern programming languages.it's a start but i should warn you that BASIC for msx and C64 is absolute fucking cancer. it's so painfully slow that your kid would probably stomp on the computer and never use it ever again. it's why many people back in the 1980s ended up learning assembly language because BASIC was just abysmal at everything.>>100187494>>100187558> qbasic> freebasiccringe.
>>100188476You can get them pretty easily, but they're expensive. They usually sell for a little over 100,000 yen but sometimes you can get it for a bit less. Definitely consider getting a floppy drive emulator.It's a fantastic system. A lot of arcade games were programmed via the X68000 which is why it's home to so many high quality arcade ports.>>100187465I forgot to reply to this. It has a separate keyboard and the monitor was also separate. It definitely used 3.5" floppies. I'm pretty sure the floppy drive was built into the main unit, but the unit definitely laid on its side under the monitor...
>>100188535>You should teach him about electric circuits first before any of this shit.I mentioned this in another comment but that's part of why we're starting with old hardware. I was to get into circuits, soldering, PCB design, etc. For example, we could design a universal breadboard PCB and use it to make a ram extension or something and then design a finalized version.We will probably do circuits before we even touch the computer. like batteries and a lightbulb kinda stuff.
>>100188609We don't have anything like that and I don't let him play with my phone (neither does my wife). That actually leads into another reason why I want to start with old hardware: no internet connection, and as soon as you flip the switch it's already in a state that's ready for you to code.
>>100188826that's not gonna work.. we just girls.. god I wish we had a boy me and siblings just girls man... smallest one is smart a fuck though already.. never say never.. but it's just ipad and iphone...
>>100188741>it's nothing like the c64It's an 8bit that's meant for tinkering and is easy to expand into and supports BASIC and assembly. They also both costed around the same price point. They are very similar platforms and the reason why the Commodore 64 failed to pentrate the market over here in Japan is because of the popularity of MSX which had already cornered the market for the that use case.>was barely popular in japanWhat's it like to be wrong?>garbage and out of date hardware they used as a baseIt was meant for hobbyists and tinkering, hence it sold at a low price point: just like the C64. It's essentially the 1980s equivalent of a raspberry pi. Fuck off to another thread, you don't know what you're talking about.>people learned 6502 and z80 assembly because BASIC was fucking garbageBASIC was meant for beginners to learn to code. People learned assembly because it was more efficient which was important given the hardware limitations.>it's so painfully slow that your kid would probably stomp on the computer and never use it ever againYou sound like a toddler who grew up with an ipad
>>100188887What? He's not going to be able to play with an ipad if we don't have one, and we don't let him plays with the phones because we know it makes kids retarded. It's not a "never say never" thing.
>>100188931god fucking bless youI fear for this generation...
man this itoddlers this generation, as if zoomers wasn't retarded enough.... they have all used ipads and iphones since before they could even speak.. REEEEE. ipads and iphones were a mistake and I fear we will see the consequences off it, lazy parenting. hey just see here and ipad.. don't throw... .. it works still if it's broken glass...
>>100186889>Teaching kid to program on ancient hardwareWhat gives? Just give him some legos and a petzold book.
>>100186889hope your kids ends up like the rest of the cs trannies
I'd just start with a Raspberry Pi 400, set it to emulate whichever system from the 80s you want.
every man on this erarth wan't a a boy , that does bad stuff and you yell at him while you around the corner and kekand ofc that will learn programming and want to learn eningeering maths
>>100188949>>100188978The ipads are part of the problem but it extends far beyond just the ipads. You said lazy parenting but the thing is they're not parenting at all.>>100189078My kid is old enough to know what a boy and a girl is so that definitely won't happen.>>100189067Let me guess, your parents didn't even teach you how to sew a button?
>>100189224God gib me a boy that will manage somehow to make a tsr in assembly, install it on all the school coputersso when people boot up and starts to type this jackass picture of another frens picture shows up at random intervals and breaks everythinghehehe good tymusthey called it a virus but it was not, it was started
there was also a guy at my school he was super autistics so frankly no idea, but is one of those old tales he h worded the bad american wordthey came swat in after his father, what did you do!?! we got you no mister... no wait what is this!?!no it was his was his son, he was super autist.. so normal kids you ask them.. what do you want for christmas?transformers! barbie dolls skis depending on sexthis guy?>maps! maps of this and that place of inner this and that africa countrynvm... so he h worded the bad bad place at 14 or something, why? nobody know....
>>100188301>If you're unable to do the sameIt's not about me, or you, or now you illiterate fag. It's about whether programming is a good career choice for someone who's going to enter the job market in 15+ years. It's not. Now, since you keep insisting on ad hominems, let's talk about me and you.I'm a 42 year old boomer, started programming with Atari Basic on a fucking 8-bit 800XL machine, went through then "obligatory" Turbo Pascal and Borland C phases, and was able to earn *ridiculous* money while still in high school from odd programming jobs and later administering networks in a couple of companies on top of that, all while remaining my own boss. That's not feasible anymore.When I wrote about "romanticizing" shit previously, that's because the field did have some romantic hacker ethos at the time, which is now long gone, too. I understand you don't care about that, because you're a mercantile twat, but I do miss it.It's 2024 and you're content with "having stuff paid for" by permanent employment in Mr. Shekelstein company.In 2040 all your kid can hope for is a lower middle class lifestyle, if that. At least he'll work in an air conditioned room, instead of shoveling shit in the filed, so that's something, I guess.Between AI, everyone and their mom getting a fucking CS/IT degree and a bazillion of third worlders willing to work for a cup of rice, it's simple supply and demand trend. It's your fucking kid though, so IDGAF if you choose to stay in denial about it.>inb4 shitposting on 4chan as a boomerI have enough money and free time to afford it. Your kid won't.
>>100186889hate me for mentioning, and please ignore if it is not useful, but isn't the way childs today are "confronted" with programming is when they wan to make a minecraft MOD or some discord bot?
>>100188433Oh hey, does that work well on the MiSTer? I remember hearing the core wasn't very good and never ended up trying
>>100189929I'm trying to be more helpful.Your child probably wants a visual pleasing outcome (HD-content, and todays internet generation ...)So maybe you could try to build some small games (a icy towers clone, or a simple jump and run, ...)with Python (>>100187479) or the like, with shiny sprites so the child is super happy about the outcome !?The child doesn't have the nostalgia in it for the early computers and their games. And I could imagine it needs a lot of effort and skill to get created the mind blowing games for the computers like C64/MSX2.
>>100188301>You keep saying that. How is that even relevant?You want grandkids, right?
>>100188914>the reason why the Commodore 64 failed to pentrate the market over here in Japan is because of the popularity of MSX which had already cornered the market for the that use case.commodore had no intention of selling the c64 in japan due to market saturation. you live in japan and you're this much of a retarded nigger? fucking amazing>>was barely popular in japani'm right. the biggest selling computers were produced by sharp and nec. msx was way behind in sales and in technology>It was meant for hobbyists and tinkeringthat's pure fucking cope. microsoft and those japanese niggers wanted to keep the price as cheap as possible using off the shelf parts. you can lie as much as you want but it changes nothing.>People learned assembly because it was more efficient which was important given the hardware limitations.people learned assembly because it was the only way to make software that wasn't fucking shit. no need to sugar coat it, you clueless nigger.>>100188914>You sound like a toddler who grew up with an ipadi've been programming computers since 1988. you write like a fucking nigger that only discovered computers yesterday. you're not even on the same level as me or the rest of this board.
>>100186889How old is your son?
>>100188806G-Compris (educational software, free, runs in everything) has a pretty decent electrical circuit diagram application in it. Simple things like circuits, and/or gates, etc that turn on a light bulb or whatever.
>>100188397Even for them it was very expensive and niche. It cost 15 times the price of the NEC PC Engine (aka TurboGrafx-16), the newest console at the time. Since a PS5 costs $500 now, imagine buying a $7,500 PC. Goddamn.(Fun fact: Hudson Soft designed the PC Engine and the video chip for the X68000.)
>>100186889BASIC would be cool, but it seems very unpractical today. I saw another post say to do Scratch and Python. If you are still going to teach your son BASIC, I would move to Scratch then Python afterwards
>>100189774>Between AI, everyone and their mom getting a fucking CS/IT degree and a bazillion of third worlders willing to work for a cup of rice, it's simple supply and demand trendJust because people have a piece of paper doesn't mean jack shit. Lots of people have art degrees, it doesn't make them an artist. There is an overabundance of programmers already, but there is a shortage of good engineers who actually know their shit and that's why I'm teaching my kid.Grow up, doomer.
>>100190017The games I tried worked fine. The biggest advice I can give is to find manual scans of each game you want to play.
>>100188741>never happenedMSX was huge in the Netherlands.
>>100190376>commodore had no intention of selling the c64 in japan due to market saturation. you live in japan and you're this much of a retarded nigger? fucking amazingThey literally released the Commodore 64 in Japan, retard. It failed.>sharp and necThe MSX wasn't targeting that sector of the market. Most MSX machines were 20,000 - 30,000 yen. The PC98-01, for example, was 298,000 yen. You're essentially comparing a 6 inch 720p monitor to a 75" 8K OLED TV. You fucking retard.>that's pure fucking cope. microsoft and those japanese niggers wanted to keep the price as cheap as possible using off the shelf parts. you can lie as much as you want but it changes nothing.How about you do some research?>people learned assembly because it was the only way to make software that wasn't fucking shit. no need to sugar coat it, you clueless nigger.You're getting close. Try asking yourself why that is.>i've been programming computers since 1988. you write like a fucking nigger that only discovered computers yesterday. you're not even on the same level as me or the rest of this board.So you're 12, got it.
>>1001904166 this year. I'm planning to start with programming when he turns 7. I'm just messing around with the MSX on my own for now. We've still got some other stuff that I want to work on before we get into computers. Right now I'm teaching him English and we'll probably talk about how circuits work and do some experiments before we get to computers.>>100190454Thanks for the recommendation!
>>100190713I know Python and I'm planning to teach it to him once we move onto the Pi. I've never used Scratch but isn't that the kiddy thing where they drag shit around? it looks kind of stupid. I'd rather teach him real languages.
>>100186889imo you should do a bit of everything in parallel (ie circuits along with asm along with BASIC etc) but i feel like you're missing a bit of math/theory.you shouldn't do too much of it because it's useless in abundance but would be cool to teach him some basic logic, complexity theory, automata theory etcguess most important would be you make him engage into it out of curiosity and try to have fun else you're gonna build a burnt out zombie, remember
>>100191362algorithms etc.. you know
>>100191362I'm not the best at arithmetic, but we're Japanese and Japanese students have the highest scores in the OECD so I'm confident that he will be ok in that area.
>>100190017I play X68000 on Retroarch and here's a catch: most of its games ran at 55fps. Basic monitors now are locked to 60fps, so any scrolling will look all choppy. But if you have one with FreeSync or G-Sync, Retroarch has the option to use that.
>>100191416Just use a CRT
