Is Rust the future? https://innovationgraph.github.com/global-metrics/programming-languages
>>100370788No, its Dockerfile
TSQLbros.... not like this....
>>100370788no, and Im doing my part to make sure it isnt
>>100370788>ShitScript>TypeShit>Pyshit
>>100370788No its not, actually I believe its past its prime as most of the broader community already started turning against them due to how snobby and insufferable Rust devs are, and how shit the language is, forcing you to constantly rewrite perfectly good code.And the 'Rust is safe and doesn't crash' idea is also a lie. And no, not because of native code or C bindings or whatever shit sandwich the Rust community is trying to feed you.If you use something as simple as RefCell, you can easily crash by doing multiple borrows at multiple levels of the stack, even though you wanted to something perfectly legal like update field A in method X and field B in method Y. So your shitty rust code can crash just as easily at runtime as your shitty C code that's full of null pointers. You gain nothing.You could say that these escape hatches are bad design, but the fact that they are in the standard library and real world code is full of them means that the 'ideal safe' Rust that most Rust devs endeavor to write is not practical.Rust has become a status symbol for people desperately wanting to appear smart, much like a BMW is a status symbol for people desperately wanting to appear rich.
>that vim script and lua graphvim is officially deadneovim wonyou may now seethe:
>>100372369> you use something as simple as RefCell, you can easily crash by doing multiple borrows at multiple levels of the stack, even though you wanted to something perfectly legal like update field A in method X and field B in method Y.Examples?
>>100373071he won't reply because he doesn't know what he's talking about
>>100372369dumb and retarded post:>most of the broader community already started turning against them wrong>how snobby and insufferable Rust devs arewrong>how shit the language iswrong>forcing you to constantly rewrite perfectly good codeonly C/C++ need to be rewritten, but C/C++ is never perfectly good>Rust doesn't crashno Rust shill ever said that>RefCellit's a code smell for exactly the reason you mentioned>You gain nothingwrong, you gain guaranteed memory safety, threads without data races, zero-cost abstractions, etc.>the 'ideal safe' Rust that most Rust devs endeavor to write is not practicalabsolutely nonsensical. more than 99% of Rust code is the 'ideal safe' Rust that most Rust devs endeavor to write. Just because that 1% exists doesn't mean it's not practical.>car analogydumb nocoder>>100373071https://doc.rust-lang.org/stable/std/cell/index.html#refcellt
>>100373118>“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”go fuck yoiurself, lol
>due to how snobbyCheck.>and insufferableCheck.>Rust devs are
this TSQL fall, wtf happend here
>>100373186>no argument
>>100370788fortran on punchcards is the future. punch this down.
>>100373191fucking kek they never recovered from this
>>100373071>Examples?I just gave you an example in the post.>>100373118You sound like the ignorant techsnob that goes with the latest hype cycle.Let me guess: you use neovim, arch, a tiling VM and used to be/are a cryptoshill.>only C/C++ need to be rewritten, but C/C++ is never perfectly goodWorking C++ code doesn't need to be rewritten. Rust code on the other hand needs to be constantly rewritten for bullshit reasons like satisfying the borrow checker and getting rid of mutable borrows.>wrong, you gain guaranteed memory safety, threads without data races, zero-cost abstractionsGuaranteed memory safety is a meaningless concept when the way you achieve it is just rejecting all code that has a potential to have safety issues either at compile time, or you just make it crash at runtime.Yeah, when the FUCKING TYPE SYSTEM prevents you from your multithreaded code from compiling and you literally have 'X' and 'X but slow and works with multiple threads' for literally everything. Zero cost abstractions is nodev monkeyspeak being able to turn a literal array iterator into a multi-thousand line monstrosity spread across a dozen files that literally destroys every aspect of the dev experience except for runtime perf (something very important for the Ruby-on-Rails rewrites and grifty cryptoshit that seems to be the primary use case for Rust nowadays). A ton of times you need to copy shit around just to satisfy the borrow checker which is the exact opposite of zero cost.
>>100373207none needed to counter "nuh uh", crab
>>100373261>You sound like the ignorant techsnob that goes with the latest hype cycle.You sound like a dumb and retarded nocoder.>Let me guess: you use neovim, arch, a tiling VM and used to be/are a cryptoshill.I use vscode, microsoft dwm, and wished to have bought bitcoins early on.>Working C++ code No such thing.>needs to be constantly rewritten for bullshit reasons like satisfying the borrow checker and getting rid of mutable borrowsIf it works once, it continues to work. Your statement is nonsensical.>wall of nocoder copeActual programmers are very happy with Rust and are gladly replacing C/C++ with it.
>>100373206Proprietary extension of SQL by MS. It was destined to fail.
>>100373342wow great arguments bro, youre really winning me overyou look like a moron compared to the guy youre arguing against its embarrassing
>>100372369>Rust has become a status symbol for people desperately wanting to appear smart, much like a BMW is a status symbol for people desperately wanting to appear rich.compare this to say functional programmers, who at least half of them realise at some level that the main reason they use functional languages is because theyre a cool intellectual curiosityrust troons have absolutely no self awareness and think that the rote procedure of their kafkaesque quagmire of a language is a type of intellectual stimulation
>>100370788>Dockerfilejust kill yourself. I can't imagine being the mentally stunted retard who makes these absolutely worthless fucking statistics or how they do it.
>>100370788it's simple. if a new programmer starting today needed a fast language would they choose cpp or rust? why would anyone starting today ever make the cpp choice?
>>100370788TSQL be like my stock deposit q.q
>>100374780he's right though. you're an idiot and the cancer (lol) killing /g/.I remember one of you faggots 6 years ago shitting and screaming about systemd and touting MUH YOUNICKS and I found out it was some retarded quasimoto fuck I actually worked with and I saw him post /g/ on clover once and knew it then. Mysteriously see less muh Younicks shitters since he died, like a bitch.You're an idiot, you fail to recognize reality. No one cares about your stoic and incorrect positions. Rust is unironically the best thing to happen to programming in decades.
>>100375041>shit i can't convince the oldfags>fine then i'll try to convince the newcomersactual reasons: way more support, knowledge, tutorials, code examples, marketability and recognizability, dozens of reaons, reallypicking rust would be shooting oneself in the foot, eventhough that's a joke commonly associated with c++
>>100375100>picking rust would be shooting oneself in the foot, eventhough that's a joke commonly associated with c++based on what retard? Rust and Cargo does everything for newfaggots. I don't have to hand-hold a newfag when gcc or clang fail to link a symbol or what some idiot falls into common pitfalls in C++ like static init ordering or other hilarious garbage.The more I read comments like this the further I am convinced only the dumbest, niggerlicious nocoders actually defend C++ against Rust.
>>100375100the best answer you have is that there are more cpp tutorials? what?
>>100375153you dont run into any of that shit as a beginner, or at least I dont remember having to ever worry about memory management in my intro to programming c++ class when I was 14 years oldthe syntax of c++ is so much more approachable for a newcomer and c++ doesnt require nearly as much computer science knowledge as a prerequisite>>100375165nta but yes that fucking matters you moron
>>100370788Dockerfile bros, we got too cocky
>>100375280>or at least I dont remember having to ever worry about memory management in my intro to programming c++ class when I was 14 years oldwhat the fuck are you talking about?I very strongly remember helping idiots after class doing TA shit with writing RB trees, destructors and other allocating shit.fuck off. god you're a fucking nocoder retard. I'm sick of this shit.
>>100375355>ACK
>>100375522YWNBAC (coder)
>>100372369>So your shitty rust code can crash just as easily at runtime as your shitty C code that's full of null pointers. You gain nothing.I'm building a rust program and one major difference with C programs is that when it crashes, it gives useful error messages telling exactly where and why so instead of spending all day hunting down a crash, I spend 10 seconds fixing it and move on. The result is programs that can be built much faster and crash much less.
>>100373191loooooooooooooooooooooool
>>100370788>Q2 2020FORTRAN BROS IT'S COMING HOME
>>100376550>it gives useful error messages telling exactly where and why so instead of spending all day hunting down a crashanon i'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you started out programming in a scripting environment, or as a back-end webdev or something. please for the love of god learn to use a debugger. even for working with rust. do not be one of those dipshit babyduck developers who never learn how to properly use basic tools, and treat everything like a black box.you like rust, it helps you do a better job. that's great! please please please do not use it as an excuse to continue being a retard.
>>100377011>Why do things the nice way when you could do it the tedious way?Debuggers take more time and catch fewer problems. If a user reports a crash that you can't reproduce, will your debugger help as much as a good error message?
>>100375355I have literally never seen an intro to programming class attended by 14 year olds that requires writing RB trees.
>>100377055anon, if you think a debugger is tedious, it's because you never learned to properly use one.>If a user reports a crash that you can't reproduceI don't reproduce crashes at all. I tell the user to upload their dump and I look at that. Immediately I can see all the information about the crash, all nicely laid out in my editor, and in the case that the issue is non-trivial I can examine the relevant state of the program to solve it anyways.Please. Please please please learn to use a debugger. I know it seems scary, like it's a lot of work, but please for the love of god just learn to do it. My coworker never learned so many of these basic things and every single day I want to fucking strangle him. He makes my life hell because anything that isn't explicitly just writing code is outside the scope of his abilities. Please just stop being a scrub, for the sake of the people who have to work beside you.Learn how to use a debugger. Learn how you platform's linker works. Learn how your compiler works. Learn to read assembly so you can actually examine compiler output. Please don't just be a stupid codemonkey who doesn't understand anything and actively makes his life and everybody else's life around him harder. I know. You think you're taking the path of least resistance. The moment you step into a codebase that's actually fairly complicated, you're going to drop straight into hell because you never learned how to do your job properly. Don't be that guy. Rust has a lot of niceties. Do not mistake them for letting you cut corners on your skillset, not even a dependently typed language lets you do that. The scope of problems you will face are greater than you can possibly imagine and cannot be automated away. Many of them will be the result OF things being automated away. Ignore my warning at your own peril, just remember this post in your hour of need.
>>100377254I swear to god, people like you are so confidently wrong it's insane. I can't recount how many times I'd have gdb choke randomly on armv7l dumps and just give up and dump you into asm it's not even fucking funny. fuck off. maybe if you're a toddler with toddler toy problems debugging and crawling dumps works.
>>100370788>top 50 programming languages>CMakeThese niggers just blindly scraped GitHub lmao
>>100377254Whenever a post on /g/ brags about using a basic tool that everyone knows as if it was some advanced magic or end-all solution, you know that post is peak Dunning-Kruger. Here we find an example of those posts.
>>100377254I just started a project in rust.. you’re making me wanna use c and gdbWhats a good debugger? Ollydbg?Should i focus on c or cpp? I was thinking c to get the basics and understand assembly better
>>100377430Is he wrong though? Using a debugger can be helpful
>>100377438>you’re making me wanna use c and gdb>some nocoder writing debugger fanfiction makes me want to use Cdumb retard nocoder>I was thinking c to get the basics and understand assembly betterThen use assembly you dumb retard. How would using C make you understand assembly better? Just think for a second.
>>100377438On Linux, *BSD and Mac, I use lldb (used to use gdb, but swapped over when we changed our compiler infrastructure to llvm)On Windows, I use visual studio trial, which i continually extend via this:https://github.com/beatcracker/VSCELicenseida-debugger is really good, if you want to pay for it. Easily one of the best. I don't use it though because I've developed my workflow to rely on editor integration with the debugger. There exist some utilities for integration, but frankly I'm not left wanting anything from my current setup so the work of doing that just seems a little silly at this point.
>>100377453he's trolling anon, ignore him
>>100377254>Please. Please please please learn to use a debugger. I know it seems scary, like it's a lot of workabsolutely insufferablealmost threw up
>>100377735> How would using C make you understand assembly better? It actually has that effect
>>100370788"languages". Is gherkin even turing complete on its own?
>>100377453no, you should know how to use a debugger but don't expect it to actually work either. I am >>100377378 and can tell you first hand that when you're "debugging" platforms with less eyes looking at it, especially when you're using exotic and moronic ABIs (softfloat or actually have float but have to call other libs with softfloat abi) you will, have a bad time. not only have I had binutils shit segfault, I've had it, again, lose the stack frame and just go straight to line by line asm. It's great if your platform just works I guess, but don't pretend it's the same everywhere.
>>100378529So what should i learn as a python webshitter? I want to do something interesting and challenging, interested in low level programming and binex, c? Cpp? Rust? Go?I have analysis paralysis
>>100378576idfk.try them all. I'll tell you that Rust is probably the easiest "low level (actually high level but so is C and its ilk)" but has the disadvantage that it's still pretty new so you'll tread a lot of new waters and might not find the tools you want out of the box.go is weird in that a lot of code exists out in the wild for basically any ridiculous thing you can think of and if you deal with container garbage, cloud infrastructure as code garbage, then you probably need go no matter what, unless you plan on rewriting podman/docker/terraform/crane/whatever-crap-in-go-here and go has some nice libraries for a bunch of niche problems. only shit deal with go is cgo and the fact that it was designed by boomers for the dumbest googlers and it really shows and feels like that when you write it.
>>100370788>no Clojuregonna write more clojure.
>>100370788Neither Erlang nor Elixir is in the list. BEAM bros...
>>100378576C or C++ if you want a proper educationif youre a backend guy though and want something really useful and relevant, definitely learn Go 100%(none of these are "low level" btw especially not go but whatever)
>>100370788>Top 50 Programming Languages Globally>Dockerfile, Makefile, Batchfile, CMake, M4>HLSL, GLSL, HCL, ShaderLab, XSLT, Smarty>Lex and Yacc>Is Rust the future? No, also this chart is atrocious and you know it. Whoever designed this doesn't know the difference between general purpose programming languages and some severely limited DSLs.>AssemblyLOL. LMAO, even. Which one, assembly is not just ONE language.Why do they keep being lumped together? It's like lumping every C-like language together and calling it "C-like".
>>100380037The chart is a bait and switch, much like the thread.
>>100370788Luasisters once again winning
If your language is less active than fucking Emacs Lisp, maybe it's time to throw in the towel and port your app.
>>100382037Scalabros....
>>100377254assembly is a helluva drugone moment you're "checking" your compiler output, the next you're writing malware
I saw the borrow checker on a workstation yesterday. I told it how cool it was to meet it in person, but I didn't want to be a douche and bother it and ask it for lifetime annotations or anything. It said, "Oh, like you're doing now?" I was taken aback, and all I could say was "Huh?" but it kept cutting me off and going "E0382: borrow of moved value" and closing its hand shut in front of my face. I tabbed away and continued with my programming, and I heard it chuckle as I typed. When I came to compile my code I saw it trying to terminate the process with like fifteen gigabytes of compiler artifacts on the hard drive without monomorphizing. The OOM killer was very nice about it and professional, and was like "Sir, you need to deallocate your mmapped files before the process terminates." At first it kept pretending to be tired and not hear that, but eventually turned back around and called sbrk(). When the supervisor process went to the build artifact directory and started running rm -rf, the borrow checker stopped it and told it to rm them each individually "to prevent any eschatological immanence," and then turned around and winked at me. I don't even think that's a word. After Cargo compiled each crate and started to invoke the linker, it kept interrupting by yawning really loudly.
>>100375004dockerlets seething LUL
Odin-bros we are the future
>>100377453"using a debugger can be helpful" is a much weaker claim than "oh my god did you just suggest sane error messages?! HOW PREPOSTEROUS you CLEARLY don't know how to use a debugger OH GOD I KNOW HOW TO USE A BASIC TOOL IT WAS SOOOO SCARY BUT NOW IT ISN'T IM SOIING OUT RIGHT NOW SO HARD GUYS I KNOW HOW TO USE A DEBUGGER"
>>100378576it doesn't matter, a programmer that knows only 2 or 3 languages is a shit programmerDifferent languages are just a different perspectives on how the theory of making da computah do shit can be applied. The more you learn the more you'll know what you don't know and thus what to learn next
