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>>100374235
why is it taking so long for other des to implement wayland

>>100374482
Because supporting Wayland is much more effort than supporting X11. Wayland dumps all the complexity on the DE.

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>>100374695
>Because supporting Wayland is much more effort than supporting X11. Wayland dumps all the complexity on the DE.

if DE devs knew about this, why didn't they start working on wayland support as soon as possible on wayland?
>still 2 more years

>>100374235
What is the usecase of wayland?

Is it true that Plasma devs are now too dedicated to have it work on Wayland? I wanted to avoid Wayland for a while as it has some issues with firefox.

>>100374816
Why should DE devs worry about Wayland at all? All applications of note run on X anyway.

>>100375157
>Why should DE devs worry about Wayland at all?
Because X11 is no longer in active dev

>>100375184
Because it just works.

>>100375419
It works for now

>>100375184
Dishonest post. They will continue to maintain it forever. Maybe they will maintain only the XWayland part and break the rest.

Wayland is why people put up with ads and telemetry on Windows 11. Every time I try a modern Linux distro on real hardware I get burned either by Wayland or by features deprecated by the lack of development on X11.

>>100374482
I stopped using MATE because of your pic.
Fuck Wayland.

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Wayland is unironically a ploy by MSFT and IBM to destroy the Linux desktop.

>>100374235
One thing that I fucking despise about Wayland is how long it takes for protocols to be merged into it.
Something as essential as color management has been stuck for 4 fucking years now, will almost 600 comments of backpedaling, it is honestly embarrassing at this point.

Wayland is such a trainwreck. KDE (the only good linux DE) deciding to default to Wayland for v6 is the biggest mistake they made since the awful KDE 4 release

>>100374816
>if DE devs knew about this, why didn't they start working on wayland support as soon as possible on wayland?
Each feature that X11 currently has takes at least 2 billion years (and that's being modest) for there to be a corresponding protocol under Wayland. Will they settle on how to support window positioning hints or per toplevel icons before the heat death of the universe? Unlikely if you consider that in the 2000 reply issue thread the concern is how making a decision now might prevent their ability to support running Wayland on a microwave's 7 segment display.

>>100375419
with one good monitor or 2 very basic ones yeah

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Is this true?

>>100375882
KDE gained back its reputation of being Krashy and most of that shit I bet is from the wayland session

>>100375817
Wayland development is a perfect representation of how governments work internally, just endless bureaucracy and discussion without getting anything done for years.

>>100375760
>last paragraphs
I can relate to this. Async callback nightmare. And what the fuck, libffi?

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>>100374235
Is there ANY reason to use this over X?
>muh secoority
My drives are encrypted and I shutdown my computer. I don't use sketchy programs or websites outside of VMs, and no, you can't hack out of a VM - there is a fat prize for the person who manages to do this.
>muh monitors
I don't care, I use one monitor.

What do people mean with X11 not working well with multiple monitors? It literally just works.

Wayland replacement when?

>>100376217
Where's Mir?

>>100376217
We have Arcan
>>100376272
Dead

>>100376272
I literally only know Canonical developed Mir but lost to Wayland because nobody else even wanted to look at it.

>>100376376
The only place that talks about Arcan is /g/.

>>100376154
Zoomers need variable refresh rates on their gayming monitors. X can't do that I think.

>>100376395
Well, Unity lost to GNOME and now nobody is happy

>>100374235
It seems to eat CPU for breakfast on my machine. It was nice having a decent battery life on my laptop but now it needs replacement. Thanks, wayland.
I given up and dual boot to hackintosh when I'm just dicking around browsing. Some how a hackjob OS install not even meant to run on my laptop does better at display serving.
Why is desktop display so fucking hard for linux. Decades of neckbeard stroking. Absolutely fuck all to show for. Nothing. How???
Things were looking so optimistic in the compiz era. Linux was finally getting compositors. For some reason they immediately became retarded spending the ensuing years making window flame effects and weird such things. More than a decade later all they have to show for is this severely retarded wayland that seems little more than a step above CPU rendered graphics circa 1999. What the hell went so wrong.

>>100376417
As someone with 2 variable refresh monitors, it's not that X can't do that. It's that it either just works with one monitor and depends on the compositor (still to this day I haven't managed to make it work on Cinnamon), it behaves weird with some programs so it needs a blacklist, and as I understand it, even though nobody fucking uses it, apparently there's a patch that does enable support for at least one VRR monitor to use VRR while another one is plugged. Not sure how the fuck it does it.
Oh and if you use AMD there's the extra annoyance of having to enable it through a xorg config. Oh, and only picom really works well with it, to be quite honest. Sometimes KWin decides that an application shouldn't work with it because fuck you and GNOME is GNOME and it hates X11

>>100376619
My laptop's refresh rate is 60 Hz and so is my external monitor "tv"'s refresh rate. X is working like a charm for me.
Never going to switch to gayland.

>>100376698
Well yeah, that's a case in which x11 has no problems, it will just have issues with new display technologies (gimmicks, someone would say) on multimonitor configurations as they come out. Generally it doesn't matter anyways because when something new of that sort comes out, it takes about 6 to 8 years to be fairly supported on linux. Look at HDR.

>>100376736
>issues with new display technologies
This wouldn't be a problem if the X devs had focused on X instead of Wayland.

>>100376864
I know, but, what the fuck can I do about it

>>100376872
Choose Wayland or X11 depending on what works the least worst for you.

>>100377013
Thing is wayland is shitting the bed for me to the point where I'd rather give up on my secondary monitor. Maybe I'll just use it as an external screen for my laptop or with my bing bing wahoo or something.
What bothers me is the future of xorg honestly. I can only hope by the time support gets dropped for x11 wayland gives me less headaches. So far on wayland I have problems with getting autoscroll to work in certain applications, problems with font rendering, problems with drag and drop, problems with mouse scrolling speeds, problems with Plasma being buggy as shit still to this day, I notice an increase in performance (I use an AMD GPU as well) but it still feels like it's going to break on me. X11 "just works" if I adapt my setup to it so to speak.

>>100374235
Why is the bottom cut off?

>>100377064
Just wait a year or 10 until everything is fixed.

>>100374235
*wayland shitshow thread

>>100377315
I wonder if shit will be really fixed by 2034

>>100376154
I have a 4k and a 1080p monitors working with separate fractional scaling with absolutely zero problems on x11 and I have an Nvidia. I have been only using Mint Cinnamon for the past 6 months and it is smooth sailing. I tried wayland session on multiple distros and multiple DEs and it is a house of horrors. Wayland just doesn't work. I am dumbfunded on how people can keep shilling it and distros are shipping it as main spin.

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>>100377791
And here, picrel. Contrary to what everyone seems to be claiming on youtube etc, this is impossible to do properly on wayland.

>>100375184
Your everyday safety relies on software running on MS-DOS.

>>100375990
KDE 5 was just as shit, stop deluding yourself.

>>100378030
Nowhere even near at least in the last 2 or so years. You haven't used it enough.

>>100376154
It's the latest Wayland technique, but quite brazen even by their standards.

X11 has had multiple WMs with dedicated multimonitor management features for decades, yet now we are supposed to pretend that multiple monitors never worked on X in the first place.

Many software projects were promoted through omissions and half truths, but no project that I know of resorted to flat out lying as much as Wayland.

>>100376619
>GNOME is GNOME and it hates X11
Ironically, even GNOME has smoother performance on X.org.

The Wayland session STILL has mouse stuttering on high CPU loads yet Wayland devs never even acknowledge it.

>>100378086
It's a lie to say multimonitor doesn't work on X11, but it would be a lie to say they work with all features under it without at least doing some extra legwork that wayland does not require for the user.

>>100378064
If you have to use a DE "enough" for it to becone good, it's shit.

>>100378172
What kind of legwork do you need that you don't need on Wayland?

>>100378128
On my end GNOME on x11 has some artifacts (for instance when snapping the settings window to one side, the titlebar disappears) and it doesn't perform all that great. As opposed to Wayland I can have window borders work fine with some programs. But some other shit just doesn't seem to benefit from X11. Take for instance the fileroller, I remember when drag and drop worked on it on x11 only (not wayland), now it doesn't work anywhere, guess because gaytk4 version of Nautilus doesn't like it or something.

What if we had MIR instead of Wayland an upstart instead of systemd? Sometimes I wonder if canonical would be worse for ppl than redhat.

>>100378172
that's true but it could have been easily fixed if desktop environments handled it. Desktop environments spend millions of times work on other useless shit instead of easy and good things.

>>100378281
MIR was much better design wise than Gayland.

>>100378205
I'll give you an example:
https://gitlab.com/pac85/xorg-server/-/commit/e2a4d5cf8965f7fcc8f07d04cb1e95f5e62a0094
This is a supposed fix for one of the things that do not just work on x11. It's just merging a patch, you could say. What do you think it's easier to anyone who has a setup that would want this?
1. Build xorg-server with this patch after adding a bunch of lines to a xorg config file
2. Go into the display settings (on Plasma, granted GNOME makes it a little bit more difficult) and enable it from a dropdown menu)

https://docs.freebsd.org/en/books/handbook/wayland/
What is the point of this? At some level you're just using FreeBSD to be able to say you're using FreeBSD

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>>100378327
In my experience using wayland has not been that bad as a developer, wayland being the core protocol. Implementing your own isn't too bad either, provided you aren't spending years trying to upstream it but can still get the protocol into your compositor.

Out of honest curiosity, were x11 and mir nicer to work with or better protocols, and how? I have multiple monitors at varying refresh rates so x11 is already not really an option for me, which is why I'm developing for wayland.
Basically do you guys have any complaints beyond nvidia and wayland-protocols never merging anything?

>>100378422
>2. Go into the display settings (on Plasma, granted GNOME makes it a little bit more difficult) and enable it from a dropdown menu)
This is composotir-specific, not something that core Wayland provides.

>>100380131
Cease your trolling now, Ascent.

>>100378281
At the end of the day it is the fault of the consoomers. There is plenty of choice, you can run distros with no systemd, with no wayland, with no gnome, but most people choose not to.

That's why it's important to support the distros that don't buckle under the boot of Canonical/Red Hat/GNOME foundation and their ilk. I'm afraid most people just don't care, and among those that do care, a significant proportion is just too lazy to walk the walk and just cave in and use one of the mainstream distros.

If people (and specially developers) start walking away from Wayland altogether, there will be a renewed drive and pressure to continue X development. And the easiest metric to achieve this is a falling Wayland market share, and a falling market share for those distros that shill it.

It's funny that wayland is exactly what normalfags probably think Linux is like. It just doesn't work.

>>100380237
who the fuck is ascent? I'm trying to ask an actual question. I thought the wayland schizo thread would be a good place to ask why wayland bad.

>>100380253
Unlike Wayland, systemd just works. I even used it when I was miserable enough to run Gentoo on a desktop.

>>100380257
Wayland is basically how anti-FOSS shills portray FOSS development as a whole, except in this case it's true.

>>100380277
I also can't find information on mir before it was a wayland compositor.

>>100380277
As long as Wayland compositors have perceivable mouse stuttering because of improper use of hardware layers (no, I'm not using Nvidia) I refuse to switch to it.

Not even Windows 95 had this issue and neither did GNU/Linux until Wayland appeared.

>inb4 works on my machine
It does not. You merely got used to it or pretend the probem doesn't exist.

>>100380282
My issue with Systemd is not about performance, but about bloat, it is so large and tries to do so many things that it has become impossible to audit and maintain, Red Hat has rigged the game in a way that they are the only ones able to do so and thus the ecosystem becomes more dependent on them.

And of course so much bloat also creates security risks, if the .xz backdoor (which was possible only due to Systemd) had been successful we would be having a different conversation altogether.

>>100380221
It matters not. Point is in the end the user can just choose Plasma, which is fairly popular these days, and get there easily. Whereas the way to get that working on x11 is really not as simple.

>>100380321
Can you explain? I know my compositor does use hardware layers and if its possible to fix I'd rather upstream one. The cursor used to lag under heavy cpu load but it hasn't done that for me in a while. I don't doubt this is a real issue but is it inherent to wayland's design? Is it enforced by protocol or the libwayland-server event loop or design?

5 years ago I tried making the switch to Linux with Fedora. I almost went insane trying to get a screenshot application to work. I was ready to give up on Linux altogether. By chance I saw that you had a menu in the login screen and could switch to xorg. Turns out the "it just works" option was not the default one. Anyway, I switched back to windows regardless. I'm now a fully converted arch user but for some reason wayland being so shit is a fond memory for me. Glad some things just don't change.

>>100380376
retested, its much better now but a build on all cores still does lag the mouse. Is that better on X?