Hello /g/,We asked 2 questions in separate threads:>1. How do we stop spam without JavaScript and adding friction to the anonymous posting process>2. How do we stop CP spam without relying on an external dependency (like a big corporation's API)?I am the operator of Cy-X.net and I believe I have conquered the top problems that plague anonymous discussion boards in current year.I solved the (Child) porn problem by deploying a lightweight vision model that routinely scans all newly uploaded attachments and rates them on a NSFW score from 0 to 1.0.If the NSFW score is equal to or above 0.80, the attachment is flagged and blocked. Moderators are able to manually mark attachments as exempt if the model made a mistake.This effectively prevents people (federal agents?) from posting child porn and immediately reporting it to law enforcement/hosting providers while you or your moderators are asleep. You can argue in court or to your hosting provider that you have taken steps to fight child porn distribution on your site by employing a system like this.I solved the spam problem by implementing several layers of dynamic rate limits. Most websites rely on IP bans, CAPTCHAs, and JavaScript to keep spammers out. That adds friction for real users and doesn't work against distributed botnets. Instead, I have implemented a system that would let anonymous posting stay friction‑free 99% of the time, but when a flood of garbage appears, it slows to a trickle automatically.Are there other imageboards or discussion websites that have implemented this kind of approach? This only took me 3-4 days to do and I am already seeing fantastic results.
Joshua "Null" Moon (an officially sanctioned 4channel legal partner) did some work on this too, focusing more on legal protection: https://github.com/usips/xf2-ncmec
its not necessarily feds, there's an international control syndicate thats been running this place for hundreds if not thousands of years. they will use the dirtiest, lowest of the low tricks to achieve their goals.
>>108156102>>108156215u realize feds aren't aliens but everyday humans like me and you with families, feelings and conscious
>>108156102>while you or your moderators are asleep.By now you should be known to your provider, from context this (t'other day?) isn't the first time. Surely once they can see for themselves you're actively combatting the issue they'll be less eager to take you offline entirely to achieve?Again, a moderation log indicating this behavior can be favourable evidence...What of the actual postings themselves, you've previously mentioned being hit when they think you're not about (shouldn't make yourself so predictable), are you able to discern any form of pattern?What of the sources? don't you have an IP associated with that upload that magically 'authorities' will do absolutely nothing with? Additionally, a lil tweak to your ToS *could* cover you, legally, for the creation of a name n shame page... Well. Prolly not name, but depends on how good your OSint is, I suppose. But generally these types prolly unappreciative of a marker on a map showing everyone where them is...
Didn't 4chan try a nsfw detector model a while back? Then it was removed as it wasn't worth it
>>108156335>everyday humans like me and you with families, feelings and consciousYes, I came to this revelation quite recently. I just put (federal agents?) in my post because I'd like to garner responses from the people who are, at the bare minimum, aware of CP spam on anonymous imageboards who have subconsciously associated federal agents with CP spamI have no gripes against them.>>108156258I hope to implement something like this next..
>>108156335It's one thing to try and humanise them, but it's another to try and pretend they have a conscious or even feelings.If that was true, they would be incapable of performing role. Both feelings and consciousness - especially combined - would allow them to actually understand why it's wrong.
>>108156335and some day they are all(families included) going to die(->Minecraft) at the hands of the people, as punishment for they'are crimes. Sins of the father. Or mother. it's 2020+6 we are inclusive.
>>108156335Child porn spammers aren't human.
>>108156392>as punishment for they'are crimes. Sins of the father. Or mother. it's 2020+6 we are inclusive.Pity you wasn't educated.Then you might stand a chance of following through, well. On more than your underwear.
>>108156102So basically AI moderationIs this really a new idea? I thought people were already doing it
>>108156417No, I think his system is in>but when a flood of garbage appears, it slows to a trickle automatically.it rate-limits everyone? idk
>>108156335I don't believe it's actual federal agents, do you think the government really pays people to shitpost and spam shit on niche imageboards? I would apply for that job if this was true
>>108156102paying for posts and jannies who do it for free
>>108156417>Is this really a new idea?d'pends entirely on how you'd define "new" I'd suppose.You can argue simple keyword matching was a form of "AI moderation". Under such a framing using a computer for filtering is certainly nothing 'new'.As for people already doing it, I imagine there's plenty. Under OPs contraints, tho? That narrows the field significantly.
>>108156335They're either extremely ineffective or the ones spamming CP to begin with. If they were worth a shit animals like Leto and Giggly Goonclown would be behind bars.
>>108156416>fell for the they're/their mispronunciation baiti thought he made it obvious but it looks like you'are faggot ass is retardedthis board is so full of tourists nowadays, everyone shouts ESL ESL when someone makes a single mistake. makes sense, you are all phoneposting NIGGERS so you think everyone else is one too and has t9 capabilities. some of us use our computahs like actual human basementniggers, wasted and/or high, like the days of old. you "people" ruined this website in the short 7 years i was away.
>>108156447>>108156417For all forms of spam, I employ pic-rel.
>>108156453>I don't believe it's actual federal agentsYes.>do you think the government really pays people to shitpost and spam shit on niche imageboards?No. I *know* it. You would too if you'd been bothered to do any research on the subject. And this behaviour *far* predates the existence of the internet.>I would apply for that job if this was trueYou seem low IQ enough to not think through your actions, whilst still having enough capacity to enact them. Try, you might get hired. Last ones I stuck my penis up they nose was CIA if that helps you any.
>>108156526>everyone shouts ESL ESL when someone makes a single mistakeThat's not what I was doing at all. Which is why you'll not find anything similar in my actual words.That is entirely what *you* read into it, because that's what you wanted to find before you even started. This isn't an indicator of intelligence.>you are all phoneposting NIGGERS so you think everyone else is one tooYou do realise you being a nigger just made you think I'm a phone posting nigger? I use my phone for phone calls, btw, and if my phone rings and it's not an emergency, expect the phone that rang it to stop working.>and has t9 capabilitiesDidn't T9 stop being a thing as 'tardphones crawled into existence?>some of us use our computahs like actual human basementniggersAnd then there's you. Who uses it to signal the rest of the world their failure of an existence.>you "people" ruined this website in the short 7 years i was away.Uh-huh. Why don't you tell me some more of what I must have done based - by your own confession - on making zero observations.
>>108156102I got a question: On my shitty no traffic site I just blocked non american IPs and vpn's and my spam dropped to 0. Did you ever find bad actors on non american IPs?
>>108156644oh sorry I meant to say bad actors ON american IPs. no one seems to be doing anything bad on american IPs.
>>108156583Thanks Elon
>>108156648>no one seems to be doing anything bad on american IPs.I've had very different experiences. Especially with the XP-based botnets you find operating on residential ranges. US datacenter IP's tend to less problematic than residential...
>>108156102>lightweight vision model that routinely scans all newly uploaded attachmentsWhich did you use?
>>108156644>Did you ever find bad actors on non american IPsYes, but the majority of non American posts come from proxies, and all of our bad actors have used proxies thus far.Cy-X allows Tor, VPN, and datacenter IPs to post on the site freely without restriction, so I have to disregard the information that's right in front of my eyes. We publicly geotag accountless users and point out their proxy usage under their posts like pic rel. This makes it easy for readers to avoid obvious bait and not engage with bad actors.
>This effectively prevents people (federal agents?) from posting child porn and immediately reporting it to law enforcement/hosting providers while you or your moderators are asleep.If you think federal agents need to report stuff to themselves, you are clinically retarded. But then again, you're a chanboard admin, so I didn't need to read that to deduce it.
>>108156102hey admin, fix the fucking mumble->xmpp bridge, I don't want to see 50+ empty mumble message :(
>>108156681We use Yahoo's OpenNSFW model:https://github.com/yahoo/open_nsfw>>108156364I believe they called it "tensorchan">>108156723>federal agents need to report stuff to themselvesThey can't immediately go in and seize your server and accuse you of distributing or having child porn if the child porn that just got posted gets automatically blocked by the vision model 10 seconds after it was uploaded
>>108156551Oh hi, I am the person who wrote that post. So it works for you? This is why I always roll my eyes when schizophrenics hallucinate a story about glowniggers flooding imageboards with spam or cp. Spam is a SOLVED PROBLEM and only happens to people who cannot code or even think. Not even the biggest glownigger can cause a significant disruption to a board without just straight up ddosing or hacking it or attacking the owner IRL.Truthfully, the conspiracy theorist's ideology is the ideology of the pussy. Imagine being one of them, genuinely believing the things they believe. That would be like if Morpheus showed up in front of you and offered you the red pill, and instead you said "nah i'm gonna shitpost the same spam for 17 years on 4chan"Schizos can shut the fuck up. In the off chance their fantasies are true, they would be worthless people incapable of action. In the more realistic scenario where they are totally wrong about everything, they are incapable of both action and thought. It's fucking pathetic. Imagine being one of these pathetic hateful morons who so lacks confidence in his own powers that he needs to gang up with a bunch of other impotent weaklings like himself to even fantasize about getting what he wants. Just thinking about it is like wading through swamp water. Whatever happened to the glory of the individual faceless anonymous whose stature equals that of The Man? This election tourist infestation has gone on for too long.Anyway, I should probably make a general-purpose "reputation" software that can just be slotted into something like vichan with minimal effort so that I don't have to suggest certain techniques to people. I have a lot of good ideas for it, but I'll refrain from talking unless I actually do something.
>>108156723>If you think federal agents need to report stuff to themselves, you are clinically retardedThat isn't what OP claimed, at all, though. Is it?What was that about being clinically retarded again?But then again. You're a 4chan shitposter. Being able to actually understand that is expecting a little too much of you.
>>108156335>feds are everyday humans like me and you with families
>>108156102>spamturdworlders, make the captcha just a smidge harder and ranjesh will no longer be capable of posting>cpcyrillic font detected on the poster’s computer -> autoban
Fuck I appreciate this thread. Thanks. But also I fucking hate that this is something we have to worry about. I just want to run a fucking website. But it's not fucking worth it if there's a chance you could get FBI raided because some poxy dipshit or glowie or indian uploaded some illegal trash. Sigh. On top of that I heard people even got charges for regular ass ANIME. I guess I have to process every fucking frame if I allow video. What bullshit. No wonder no new social media can pop up. They all get vanned.
>>108156810The people who say things like that are motivated by embarrassment. It is in their interest to deny the existence of the agency of individual human beings, because to concede that they have power would be to admit that they were too weak or stupid to use it.The entire internet could be condensed to nothing more than Facebook and I could run a perfectly distributed, anonymous imageboard over that channel. Zuck has no say in it and neither does a world power.The internet will never be that restricted, but even if it was I would not even blink before routing around it.>The net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
>>108156335>u realize feds aren't aliens but everyday humans like me and you with families, feelings and conscioushahaha brightest glowie bait I've ever fucking seen man.
>>108156790>Schizos can shut the fuck upI can. How about you try and make me? Oh. That's right. You're impotent.>in the off chance their fantasies are true, they would be worthless people incapable of action.Hmm. Let me see. You legitimately think a threat actor will go through in excess of $150k in a month in order to fill a message board for half a dozen legitimate users with spam? By month two of maintaining such expenditure, you really need to question the finding source. A decade of sinking that money to see no return?And what would you propose I do about this, precisely? End your .gov? You *want* me not acting.>Whatever happened to the glory of the individual faceless anonymous whose stature equals that of The Man? I believe what happened is anonops got taken over by alphabet soups and anyone serious left the meme making retards to their own devices.>This election tourist infestation has gone on for too long.Remeber what I was saying earlier about your impotence?>but I'll refrain from talkingSomehow, I sense the world shall not be so lucky.
>>108156873>The entire internet could be condensed to nothing more than FacebookNo. It really couldn't.>and I could run a perfectly distributed, anonymous imageboard over that channelAnd how precisely do you intend on making their server speak your protocol?>Zuck has no say in it and neither does a world power.You really think you can do something on someone else's computer and they have no ability to interfere?>but even if it was I would not even blink before routing around it.You'd need to understand it first. You have a long way to go.>The net interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.explaining all the routing directly to censored sources... Usually intentionally by the victim.
>>108156790>yeah dude some /g/tards trolling and CP spam are totally the same thing>muh election touristsAnons like you have been here for over a decade now. Time to let go nufag.
why do you need it
>>108156916>Hmm. Let me see. You legitimately think a threat actor will go through in excess of $150k in a month in order to fill a message board for half a dozen legitimate users with spam? By month two of maintaining such expenditure, you really need to question the finding source. A decade of sinking that money to see no return?The post you're replying to is made by someone who thinks such expenditures are unlikely. The point is that even 1 billion dollars put into spam can easily be countered with simple, cheap methods. For small messageboards, spam is no trouble.>>108156954>No. It really couldn't.That post doesn't say it could, though. This level of reading comprehension.. probably a troll, but that's 4chan for you.>And how precisely do you intend on making their server speak your protocol?There is simply no need to do so, just as there is no need to make a server "speak" pgp to use pgp.
>>108156790>So it works for you?It's brilliant and works beautifully. Coordinated spammers can only get 10 or so posts in across however many IPs they have until they get blocked.>Fast posting volume is off the table.>Slow but large posting volume isn't feasible unless you want to try to send 1 post per hour for a grand total of 24 posts per day assuming they aren't all deleted>Malicious qualitative posts are off the table (CP, porn and shock content) because of the vision modelWhat other ideas have you come up with that might be able to slot in well with the current implemented philosophy?
>>108157012>This level of reading comprehension.. probably a troll, but that's 4chan for you.of course it's a troll retard. all posts are completely fake and made by trolls by default, including those two this site doesn't filter much. the filters supposed to be in ur brain.USE UR BRIAN
>>1081561024chan had a solution years ago and the solution was to creating containment boards for porn, for politics, random postings, robots etc, then create dedicated boards for other more legitimate topics like technology, literature, fitness and so on
>>108156102sounds like if someone wanted to ruin your board, they'd just spam it to make it too slow for the real users
>>108157012>For small messageboards, spam is no trouble.It can very quickly elevate to more hassle than it's "worth". For the smaller examples, even more so, as they are lesser likely to posess the skills to counter.>That post doesn't say it could, though.Their own words say precisely the opposite.>There is simply no need to do soSo the server is going to magically know how to handle the non-service data they'll be unexpectedly throwin' at it?And yes. To use pgp, you will need to 'speak' pgp. Cryptography gets a little funny like that.
>>108156335the people who performed the tuskegee syphilis experiment were also "everyday humans like me and you with families, feelings and conscious".
>>108157141>What other ideas have you come up withIt's generally anon, but there are registered users?Tiered access. Those historically 'well behaved' earn tiers that ensure countermeasures do not impact them? I say 'tiers' to allow for creating accounts, making a few 'valid' posts, then sitting on it whilst building up other accounts to be able to spam with impunity from multiple directions... Tiers will (in theory) limit the max scope of 'damage'...
>>108157246Occurred "the plutonium files"?Essentially early atomic era US .gov tried to make a hulk. Get the doctors to give some preggos some plutonium shots - you need this to make your baby healfy ... Turns out there isn't a safe dose of plutonium...
>>108157141I think that someone who already understands the bulk of this stuff can easily, and probably already does know how, to extend it as needed. That's the nature of ideas and thought, the language is just a map and it seems like you already got to the destination mostly.>What other ideas have you come up with that might be able to slot in well with the current implemented philosophy?Just to completely abstract the process. Given some core program within which you can define channels and how it interfaces with them, whereby certain channels the ability to dole out reputation at a certain rate, and certain actions cost reputation (more or less depending on channel), then you wouldn't need to just vibe things. Instead you could verify, even prove, that the amount of trust being given out is low enough that certain actions are kept below some threshold, such as an amount of posts a human moderator can cope with.You could conceptualize a board's main URL as a channel that may give out trust at a certain rate, a higher rate in some situations than others. (there could even be scripting such that this is programmable, not just a few adjustable values)You could have other URLs that have more lenient scripts associated with them due to the circumstances of how they are distributed.It would be the most generalized version of "vouching" possible, applied to antiflooding. The philosophy is parallel to real-world analogues about how people consider each other trustworthy or credible. When you see certain signals, you expect betrayal less often. Or for example, you could leave a bowl of halloween candy out every year and for a long time the honor system works, and eventually you have to be more vigilant.When I said I didn't want to say too much more, I meant that just lazily emitting language in the form of imageboard posts on the topic isn't that effective. A link to a git repo would eclipse 1000 posts.
>>108156102I trick I used was allowing POST requests only with a key that was populated via javascript, this prevented simple bots from flooding the api endpoints since they require the javascript filled key for it, it also filtered the no javascript retards that are usually the first ones abusing the api endpoints
>108157227Fascinating. Notice anything?
>>108156102>lightweight vision model that routinely scans all newly uploaded attachments and rates them on a NSFW scoreI guess that's an okay solution if the model is actually accurate. But what do you mean by "NSFW score"? Are you just automatically blocking everything NSFW by default, not just CP?>I have implemented a system that would let anonymous posting stay friction‑free 99% of the time, but when a flood of garbage appears, it slows to a trickle automatically.What's the system? You wrote an awful lot of words to say "I solved the problem by solving the problem." Can low-volume spam still make it through? Can a spammer force friction on everyone else whenever they want by spamming enough to get you to go into anti-flood mode?The little bit of information you gave about both of these systems don't make them seem particularly novel or useful. It sounds like you just implemented the most obvious low-effort solutions and it "works" because your service doesn't have the popularity to get seriously spammed. It will probably all become useless when someone puts actual effort into spamming you.
>>108156102>a lightweight vision model that routinely scans all newly uploaded attachments and rates them on a NSFW score from 0 to 1.0. If the NSFW score is equal to or above 0.80, the attachment is flagged and blockedFucking BASED! I did something similar for my own privately hosted chat app. We wanted to accept new users by word of mouth but couldn't vet them all, so we reached for some technical solutions like this. We also respond to direct raid attempts by enabling manual upload approval; i.e. an image attachment is not made globally visible unless okayed by a human moderator. I have chomo fatigue. I only cooperate with LEOs when there are CSAM spammers. I would sooner let my userbase post bomb making instructions than allow an interloper to flood us with CSAM. They must go!
>>108157194They would need to:1 - spam every single board in order to neuter it2 - be incredibly dedicated and do this 24/7 for no reason whatsoeverThis is also why there are accounts, which are purely for antispam measures.Registrations are limited per-hour and per-day. Invitations from existing users bypass these limits. Invitations can only be generated once every 7 days.If you wanted to post during a spam attack, you can just log into an account and post as if nothing is happening>>108157375>What's the system?Read: >>108156551>Can a spammer force friction on everyone else whenever they want by spamming enough to get you to go into anti-flood mode?>It will probably all become useless when someone puts actual effort into spamming you.I stress‑tested the system myself in a variety of ways. It doesn't matter how hard you try to hammer the site or how many IPs you have. Proper long-term discussion is capable of persisting amidst a spam-wave. I invite any reader to try their hand at testing the system. I'm incredibly confident in its strength.
>>108156102cp spam is a overblown issue that is just a convenient excuse for feds to deanonymize the internet.if you don't wanna see cp just don't go to places where cp is posted. i've been on this site for nearly 20 years and letting jannies manually deal with it already "solved" the problem decades ago in 99% of cases. we don't need algorithms or AI or massive datacenters full of cp media conveniently owned by Israelis to save the internet.I understand the appeal for a web developer/admin wanting to fire all their moderators and replace them with an algorithm, but for the end user it basically doesn't make a difference. And any sensible imageboard admin will give you this same answer, that it's unnecessary.
>>108157456nah you're an idiot. if it didn't matter then why does every fucking site on the fucking internet have a full ass moderator team. if something ends up on your server and you don't deal with it appropriately and in time you're going to do a full ass police thing and fined. look at the fucking discord paris thing. some guy running just a regular ass DISCORD not even a hosted server got fined. IN FRANCE. in america you're fucking toast you have no idea what you're talking about.
>>108156102>baby's first NSFW image classifierHow novel. Also, you're an idiot trying and you're trying to solve the problem in the wrong layer.If your system that is suppose to be censorship resistant has a single point of failure (e.g., host providers that can be coerced by law enforcement agencies) you fucked up.
>>108156755>We use Yahoo's OpenNSFW model:>https://github.com/yahoo/open_nsfwDo you have to run each frame of every gif / animation through this thing to be safe? Sounds rough.
>>108157375The ideas discussed ITT may not be novel, but with many service operators there is a kind of psychological block that happens with spam. Instead of taking a granular approach, they tend to either freak out and shut down their service, or pick some draconian measures that everybody else is using and ignore complaints. This looks like banning datacenter/proxy IPs, browser fingerprinting, phone numbers, IDs, making your site rely on a specific reverse tunnel business, certain WAFs PoW, payments, etc.Usually these solutions can be bypassed with a $50 subscription to some residential proxy service and a lot of gumption, too.The purpose of the thread is to point out that if you don't like all that invasive crap on your site, or if you don't like making your site dependent so much on vibes or the price of IP addresses or something, there actually are other options.>>108157326Things like that are fine. What I'm trying to get at is that if you tend towards an integration of all methods, you can be more lenient about some signals than you otherwise would have to be. Maybe the main page requires javascript but there is a little-known page that requires no javascript, only an open secret in the POST request. If you combine the best of all worlds you can get the benefits from a lot of protection methods without having to turn your service into shit.
>>108157504Yes you have a responsibility as a web admin to moderate your community and not let it turn into a digital ghetto. Yes the feds will come after you if you don't deal with cp.But the problem is solved by having moderators that care about the community. This shit has been tried and true since the 1980's. Yes you can't just put up a website and then refuse to deal with abuse complaints without the feds knocking on your door. But setting up more barriers to posting like adding catpchas or an AI image analyzer is just the anti-user approach that scares users away from using your website.
>>108156102>This effectively prevents people (federal agents?) from posting child porn and immediately reporting it to law enforcement/hosting providers while you or your moderators are asleep.This literally does not happen.
>>108157537whatthats the one thing he's right aboutupload CSAM + instant report has been confirmed an issue by b4k, sharty and even the keeweefarms
>>108157553I meant the federal agents part.
>>108156102Honestly I know you're trying to help make people see like hey its not so bad to have a website with user generated content. But actually it's had the opposite effect for me. Fuck the internet I can't deal with that.
>>108157504>why does every fucking site on the fucking internet have a full ass moderator teamBecause they have a bunch of non-CP related rules to enforce, moron.
>>108157595it's really not that bad, as long as you aren't actually endorsing illegal stuff.
