>>16522547
For ye men shall put on more adornments than a woman and more colored garments than a virgin; In royalty and in grandeur and in power, and in silver and in gold and in purple, and in splendor and in food they shall be poured out as water. Therefore they shall be lacking in doctrine and wisdom and they shall perish thereby together with their possessions. And with all their glory and their splendour, and in shame and in slaughter and in great destitution their spirits shall be cast into the furnace of fire.

>>16522547
They are brothers in Christ (as they believe Jesus died for there sins), but they have a lot of wrong doctrine. Protestants were right about most things in there doctrine. They were right about Sola scriptura, symbolic baptism, believer's baptism, aniconism, no veneration of saints, no intercession of saints, Millenarianism, decentralized church polity, home churches and priesthood of the believer. But the big issue is that they were wrong about Sola fide.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Perspective_on_Paul
Also they should of based there ethics on the 1st century Jewish roman interpretation of the bible not the medieval interpretation.
In the 20th century we had more scholarship on how to do bible hermeneutics an could figure out the intended meaning of the texts. We got a lot of new manuscripts and learned about the literary devices the bible was written in. But also that Catholicism, Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy and Eastern Orthodoxy was wrong on most of it's special doctrines/interpretations because it takes a medieval interpretation to a 1st century Jewish roman text. It utterly butchers the doctrine(basically making it a different religion).

I have sworn unto you, ye sinners, by the Holy Great One; That all your evil deeds are revealed in the heavens and that none of your deeds of oppression are covered and hidden.

And do not think in your spirit nor say in your heart that ye do not know and that ye do not see that every sin is every day recorded in heaven in the presence of the Most High.

From henceforth ye know that all your oppression wherewith ye oppress is written down every day till the day of your judgement.

Woe to you, ye fools, for through your folly shall ye perish: And ye transgress against the wise, and so good hap shall not be your portion.

And now, know ye that ye are prepared for the day of destruction: Wherefore do not hope to live, ye sinners, but ye shall depart and die; for ye know no
ransom; for ye are prepared for the day of the great judgement, for the day of tribulation and great shame for your spirits.

Woe to you, ye obstinate of heart, who work wickedness and eat blood: Whence have ye good things to eat and to drink and to be filled? From all the
good things which the Lord the Most High has placed in abundance on the earth; therefore ye shall have no peace.

Woe to you who love the deeds of unrighteousness: Wherefore do ye hope for good hap unto yourselves? Know that ye shall be delivered into the hands of the righteous, and they shall cut off your necks and slay you, and have no mercy upon you.

Woe to you who rejoice in the suffering of the righteous; For no grave shall be dug for you.

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mood

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>>16522710
You keep offering this Reddit-tier take
>But the big issue is that they were wrong about Sola fide.
>nu-perspective on Paul
Incorrect. Salvation involves works, but justification is by faith alone. Justification by faith alone is what the Christian church stands or falls on. If you argue that works are a part of being justified you shoot yourself in the foot because where is the determining point of those works being sufficient to justify?
Is it 1 work?
Is it 2 works?
Is it 100 works?
Is it 1000 works?
Is it the balance of works where you need to balance good boy point with bad boy points?

Put simply under your nu-perspective, what must a person do to be justified? And what is The Gospel?

>>16522844
What the New Perspective on Paul says is that Martin Luther(and the church) got it wrong on what Paul was saying about salvation. Martin Luther understood Paul to be critiquing a works righteousness that he thought the Catholic Church was guilty of. So for Luther, the "works of the law" that Paul speaks of plays a similar function to late medieval views of the relationship between works and grace. Luther understood Paul to offer faith alone by the imputation of Christ's righteousness as a contrast to any sort of works righteousness.

The Lutheran reading of Paul misread the context because the medieval church wasn't aware of the 2nd temple Jewish context that Paul was writing in. The 2nd temple Jewish writings on grace did not teach works righteousness, but that everyone agreed the covenant was founded upon pure grace. Paul's polemic then is not against works righteousness, but the extent of the covenant. Paul is arguing that because of the work of Christ, Jew and Gentile can now be united into one covenant. The works of the law are bad not because they are an attempt to earn salvation, but because they divide Jew and Gentile.

Paul is concerned with the faithfulness of God. The Jews of the day were concerned that God had not been faithful to his promises because the kingdom of Israel hadn't been reestablished. Paul argued that God had been fulfilled through the faithfulness of Jesus. Again here, we see the major concern of how Paul relates to the theological debates present in late 2nd temple Judaism.

>>16522901
>*wall of text*
>zero citations
>completely dodged the question.
Checks out.

Salvation involves works, but justification is by faith alone. Justification by faith alone is what the Christian church stands or falls on. If you argue that works are a part of being justified you shoot yourself in the foot because where is the determining point of those works being sufficient to justify?
Is it 1 work?
Is it 2 works?
Is it 100 works?
Is it 1000 works?
Is it the balance of works where you need to balance good boy point with bad boy points?

Put simply under your nu-perspective, what must a person do to be justified? And what is The Gospel?

>>16522909
not him, but this is a bot-tier response and you should be ashamed

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>>16522931
>Neither he nor I can give answer a simple question so we dodge it. The fact that your trying to hold our feet to the fire by reasking the same question is bot-tier.
He spams this (>>16522710) across multiple threads and EVERY TIME I ask the same question and EVERY TIME he either dodges it or posts a wall of text that has 0 citations and addresses NONE of the questions I ask.
So tell me, what is more bot-tier?
A) posting the same thing over and over and refusing to engage with critique.
Or B) Posting the same critique because your simple questions cannot be answered.

I’ll be honest with you I think you are calling it bot-tier because neither you nor he can answer it and your just coping and seething. Unironically I think that’s the case.
It gets said again and again, that those who oppose the New Perspective on Paul (NPP) “just don’t understand it”. But Is anyone of its advocates able to clearly explain succinctly what it is? NT Wright will say it’s not contrary to Sola Fide, the other anon will. They can’t agree on what the thing they are advocating for is let alone what is means for the gospel.

>>16522710
charismatic and new age ideas in evangelicalism are an anathema

>>16522980
Sola Fide is contrary to what Jesus says in Matthew 6

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

You got that? You have to forgive if you want to be forgiven.

Believe however much you do, that's what Jesus wants, but he also wants you to forgive people just as he forgives you. It's in fact, a condition of your forgiveness that you engage in that work with Christ.

>>16522547
they make anglos, latrinos, slavs, and all muslims seethe like wild pigs, so they're pretty based

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>>16523053
>Sola Fide is contrary to what Jesus says in Matthew 6
No it isn’t you are a grug brain literalist.
>You got that? You have to forgive if you want to be forgiven.
And Christians once they have been justified (have their heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh) are capable of forgiveness and as they follow in the path of Christ they will be forgiving, to a lesser or greater degree. The act follows justification, it does not proceed it.
Without that heart of flesh we are utterly incapable of true forgiveness.
Romans 3: 9-19
Genesis 6: 5
Ecclesiastes 9: 3
John 3: 19-20
1st Corinthians 2: 14
2nd Corinthians 4: 3-4
Titus 1: 15-16

>Believe however much you do, that's what Jesus wants
NO ONE has ever said that Jesus doesn’t want us to be forgiving. Stop shadowboxing. The ability to be what Jesus wants us to be cannot come through our own capability without his initial intervention. To claim otherwise is Pelegianism, be it semi or full.
>but he also wants you to forgive people just as he forgives you.
As above so below.
>It's in fact, a condition of your forgiveness that you engage in that work with Christ.
A man who is a believing Christian has his family murdered in front of him, in the space of the few seconds it takes to register that they have just been killed he himself is also shot and murdered. He did not have time to forgive his attacker.
Is the man justified?
A simple yes or no will suffice.

>>16523157
>No it isn’t you are a grug brain literalist

Those two verses are literally some of the most important exegesis in the bible. They are Jesus explaining to you what the Lord's Prayer means in no uncertain terms.

Yes, they mean literally what Jesus says they do.

>The ability to be what Jesus wants us to be cannot come through our own capability without his initial intervention.

That's so untrue I hardly know where to begin. You don't need faith to forgive people, I have seen pagans and atheists with no faith at all in Jesus forgive others.

But without faith, that forgiveness while virtuous, is not effective in itself for salvation. It's only through Jesus that forgiveness becomes effective as a condition for our own forgiveness.

It's still a condition of our own forgiveness, dont be deluded. But without Jesus, forgiveness wouldn't be saving.

>front of him, in the space of the few seconds it takes to register that they have just been killed he himself is also shot and murdered. He did not have time to forgive his attacker.
>Is the man justified?

It's not my job to speculate on the judgement of others. I don't concern myself with these matters, because it's not my place. Judgement belongs to Christ.

Cool gotcha question though.

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>>16523166
> They are Jesus explaining to you what the Lord's Prayer means
NO ONE is disagree that the Lord’s Prayer calls on us to forgive others. STOP SHADOWBOXING.
>Yes, they mean literally what Jesus says they do.
And when I give you a example of this in praxis you refuse to admit “yes that’s how I believe it works”.

>That's so untrue I hardly know where to begin. You don't need faith to forgive people
I said true forgiveness. Which is born of a regenerate spirit. The Pharisees gave to the poor but Jesus critiqued them because it wasn’t true charity it was virtue signalling.
>I have seen pagans and atheists with no faith at all in Jesus forgive others.
As above

>But without faith, that forgiveness while virtuous, is not effective in itself for salvation.
And you cannot have faith with our God giving it to you. Ergo justification proceeds any of the acts you taking about.
Romans 3: 9-19
Genesis 6: 5
Ecclesiastes 9: 3
John 3: 19-20
1st Corinthians 2: 14
2nd Corinthians 4: 3-4
Titus 1: 15-16
Can a man come to Christ entirely through his own will?
A simple YES or NO will suffice.

>It's not my job to speculate on the judgement of others.
Never said it was, doesn’t stop you from answering the question tho.
>I don't concern myself with these matters
Said in a post where he is concerning himself with exactly this matter.

>Cool gotcha question though.
Thanks I figure it would expose your hypocrisy.

>>16523228
You need to forgive others if you want God to forgive you.

Forgiveness is a work.

Ergo, Sola Fide is heresy.

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>>16523249
Failed to address my question yes or no question (>>16523228)
>Can a man come to Christ entirely through his own will?
>A simple YES or NO will suffice
And you still haven’t addressed my hypothetical (>>16523157)
> A man who is a believing Christian has his family murdered in front of him, in the space of the few seconds it takes to register that they have just been killed he himself is also shot and murdered. He did not have time to forgive his attacker.
Is the man justified?
>A simple yes or no will suffice.

>You need to forgive others if you want God to forgive you.
>God died so that you would be forgiven of your sins. No that doesn’t include your sins of failing to forgive others, those sins are still around, and remember if you don’t perfectly forgive it’s off to hell for you. No Christ’s perfection won’t protect you, again he only died for select sins.
Okay anon.
What denomination are you btw? (I call in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15).

>Ergo, Sola Fide is heresy.
Well you come across as a pelegian/semi-pelegian, which if so you are a heretic yourself. But don’t worry, I forgive you :))

Additonally you basically nuke every Christian church that does excommunication including the early church. A Christian would commit as sin(s) and they would be excommunicated, usually for a time. After the time and public penance they would be forgiven and welcomed back in. By your standard all members of every church that did that was sent to outer darkness.

>>16523313
>>16523249
Cont.
I bring up the example of the man who’s family and then he is killed & I bring up the history of church excommunication because showcase how you have accidentally destroyed the gospel.
>why did Jesus die on the cross?
For The forgiveness of our sins
>Why did we need our sins forgiven
Because the wages of sin is death
>Why did we need him to die?
Because he was perfectly sinless
>Why did he need to be sinless
Because the price of eternal life is perfection.
Epistle to Diognetus
For what else was able to cover our sins except the righteousness of that one? In whom was it possible for us, the lawless and ungodly to be justified except in the Son of God alone? O the sweet exchange, O the inscrutable work (of God), O the unexpected benefits (of God), that the lawlessness of many might be hidden in one righteous man, while the righteousness of one might justify many lawless men (Diogn. 9.3-5).
If the price to stand justified before God is forgiveness then that means that it would have to be PERFECT forgiveness.
That means even a single slip-up (see either my hypothetical or the history of church excommunication) and outer darkness is the only possible outcome.
Anything less than that would be injustice which God could not allow because the wages of sin is DEATH.
Unless of course…… that penalty had already been paid by someone…….

>>16522547
>began in CE
>ancient

>>16522691
Enoch isn't scripture.

>>16522547
I find it to be incredibly interesting and criminally overlooked in general histories of Christianity.

>>16522547
The Church of the East used to have a strong iconodulia tradition similar to that of Roman Christendom but due to the pressure of Islamic society which it found itself in has discontinued the use of icons and severely limited the extent of the whole cult of the saints tradition including their invocation for this reason. Interesting.

>>16524475
Claims the man worshipper.

>>16524475
>Enoch isn't scripture
Nicean council was a mistake. Enoch sits at God's side and records the history of the children of God, his testimony illuminates much which should not have been lost.

>>16522547
Schismatics, pure and simple.

>>16522547
>Nestorians
Traitors to Rome and humanity

There is so much anger in this hread and I am just confused.
Someone tell me what thisnis all about?

>>16526493
Angry Ephesus-lovers.

>>16522547
>>16524515
While they are typically de facto aniconists, I wonder how many of them actually think that they should not use images in their church buildings in a more de jure sense of being more like the old iconoclasts of the Orthodox Church, or certain early Christians from well before?

>>16523071
>they make anglos, latrinos, slavs, and all muslims seethe like wild pigs
Why would they?