Why is the Trojan war so prevalent in popular culture? Ancient Greece and Troy at the time would seem to have been irrelevant compared to contemporaneous cultures such as that of the Hittite, Assyrian, Babylonian, and Egyptian empires.
>>16523424Greek culture took over Rome, which took over western europe
>>16523424Troy (Wilusa) was itself a backwater, hick vassal state of the Hittite empire and was entirely within its sphere. There is a surviving granite treaty in Hittite mentioning Wilusa and even more interesting their “king Alexandros” who payed them yearly tribute. The real Alexandros it would seem was a puppet of the Hittites and the Trojan war was a war by the Greeks attempting to gain the Dardanelles as part of their economic sphere.
>>16523444I’m not sure that it’s ever been confirmed with 100% certainty that Troy was Wilusa. Has it?
>>16523447It’s never going to be one on one absolute certainty but you can infer from the fact they had a king named Alexandros and experienced a siege during the years which roughly line up with the war of the Homeric epics that Wilusa is Ilium. They even have the same root consonants - Wilusa = Ilium.
>>16523431Demaratus of Corinth the exile saw to that.
>>16523424Because the Greeks remembered it and wrote it down
>>16523447You can't even confirm the war happened with 100% certainty, but there was in fact a fortified hilltop city that got sacked in the general area identified as the "Troad" or Illium at approximately the time the Greeks always said it was (~1100 BC).>>16523444Troy might have been one of the nicer, safer, stronger places after all the civilizations you named collapsed one by one around the same time
>>16523465City seven of Hisarlik experienced siege warfare. That much is certain. If you are implying Troy is some other unidentified site then I don’t know.
>>16523465Surviving texts blatantly talk about a conflict that happened where an exiled prince got Greeks to help him take the throne of the city
>>16523449How does Wilusa equate to Ilion? Where did the name Troy come from then? None of that makes any sense. There's also no hard evidence for a destruction in the 12th century, but there is for the 14th century BC. The Alaksandu tablet pertains to the 13th century, around 1280, which is odd but if it's legit then it would explain the destruction from over twenty years prior. But none of those dates line up with the established dates for Troy.
>>16523469What makes it certain, other than the wikipedia article insisting that it is?
>>16523458The others also wrote about their wars. The Hittites, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Amorites, the Kassites, the Elamites, the Akkadians…>>16523473The Assyrian civilization never truly collapsed until several centuries after the Bronze Age collapse and Trojan war occurred, though.
>>16523475I mean, there are nine layers to the Hisarik site and only one actually experienced any form of turmoil or disruption.
>>16523473In Classical Greek, the city was referred to as both Troia (Τροία) and Ilion (Ἴλιον) or Ilios (Ἴλιος). Metrical evidence from the Iliad and the Odyssey suggests that the latter was originally pronounced Wilios. These names seem to date back to the Bronze Age, as suggested by Hittite records which refer to a city in northwest Anatolia called 𒌷𒃾𒇻𒊭 Wilusa or 𒋫𒊒𒄿𒊭 Truwisa which is generally identified with the site of Hisarlık.[1][a][2][3][4] In Greek myth, these names were held to originate from the names of the kingdom's founders, Tros and his son Ilus.[7][8]In Latin, the city was referred to as Troia or Ilium. In Turkish, it is generally known as Troya or Truva
>>16523480And their texts didn't survive. Pieces of them were translated 2 thousand years later
>>16523487Battle of Megiddo? Battle of Kadesh?
>>16523498Yeah rediscovered thousands of years later. Thanks for proving my point
>>16523501Most stuff from antiquity besides Aristotle and practical stuff like the medicine of Galen was rediscovered thousands of years later. Not even Homer’s poems existed continually since antiquity. They were translated to Latin in 1488.
>>16523480>The Assyrian civilization never truly collapsed until several centuries after the Bronze Age collapse and Trojan war occurred, though.I would agree overall, but the neo-Assyrians were culturally very different afterward. Still Assyrians, just...Different.>>16523481Are you referring to the 14th century destruction?>>16523482I can see how you would land from Ilios to Wilios, but I'm not convinced that Hittites would have even used an -os ending if they end up calling it Wilusa. Tell you the truth, the whole thing smells like bullshit. Check it out: The Hittites stop being a power almost two centuries before the Trojan war took place. It would be incredibly convenient to put Troy there if they had lasted a little longer. The question boils down to whether you accept that the Balkans tribes had migrated south into Turkey like Herodotus said. That's the only way Dardanians would be involved in a Trojan war if it were to take place in Turkey since they're the only group that gets mentioned by Homer but does not get mentioned as having migrated. It could have been that their migration was forgotten about among the others.
>>16523518>They were translated to Latin in 1488.That doesn't sound right at all. You're telling me Latin speaking Europeans didn't have a translation until they started using Latin less? It's the lynchpin of western culture and everyone of note is conversant in Latin before then.
>>16523522I am referring to cite 7 of Hisarlik. Being off by decades or even a couple centuries doesn’t matter because the site lines up with the general end of the Bronze Age era.
>>16523522It's called the Hittites and Greeks spoke different languages and that's how the Greeks pronounced it. And no the Hittites didn't stop being a power 200 years before Troy. You don't even know what you are talking about.
>>16523526No one read Homer until it was available in Latin in 1488. Dante’s description of Achilles in the Comedy is so off base because he didn’t actually have access to the book so he was basing it off oral traditions. If you search that up you will find a more in depth look.
>>16523518From Greek and Arabic
>>16523533Pic related is a 13th century English manuscript of Hippocrates’ Aphorisms. My overall point was most of the ancient writers we have today didn’t exist in a continual line from Greece to the modern era. Homer and Plato were rediscovered in the 1400s for instance. Very few exist in an unabridged line from their original composition and it’s mostly stuff chosen for practical use so no war records as the first anon mentioned.
>>16523528That's the beginning of the BAC though, and seems to have more to do with migrating Mysians and Carians along with Assyrians breaking down their trade lanes. I don't see any evidence that the Schliemann site is Troy.>>16523530Troy VI was destroyed around 1300 BC, corresponding with the sublayer known as Troy VIh. Damage in the Troy VIh layer includes extensive collapsed masonry and subsidence in the southeast of the citadel, indicative of an earthquake. Alternative hypotheses include an internal uprising as well as a foreign attack, though the city was not burned and no victims were found in the debris.You don't find Hittites in foreign records too much after this event. They were mainly a thing centuries earlier. But again, none of the context clues in Homer make a whole lot of sense for Troy being in Turkey. None of the geographic or ethnic clues point to that.>>16523532>No one read Homer until it was available in Latin in 1488I find that hard to believe. Even Marie de France was using Greco-Roman motifs centuries earlier. >Dante's description>off baseArtistic license really. All of his characters feel off base for non-Christians.
>>16523536>>16523532>No one read Homer until it was available in Latin in 1488.Meanwhile,in reality:>"The Ilias Latina is a short Latin hexameter version of the Iliad of Homer that gained popularity in Antiquity and remained popular through the Middle Ages."UH OH STINKY
>>16523543That’s not a full translation. That’s a minor abrdigement that didn’t even include the most important parts. Read Dante’s comedy to see how far off base they got the Achilles story. Achilles is in hell for “lust.” Lmao
>>16523536It's called the Byzantines anon and the Arabs translated Greek writings too.>>16523540Battle of kadesh was in 1274 bc again you don't know what you are talking about
>>16523544I can see you recoiling in terror even now, rushing for the goal post, struggling to lift it off the ground. The hard realization that the most massive genre of medieval literature is based on a text you claim didn't exist in the standard language of the era, yet there it is. >b-but I had this whole thing about Dante not writing good character development...Not even tangentially an argument you complete rube.
>>16523544He raped the corpse of an Amazon queen he killed because she was so beautiful he couldn't resist.Dude had issues.
>>16523553An abridged version isn’t the actual book however.
>>16523552>Battle of kadesh was in 1274 bc again you don't know what you are talking aboutI have to admit that I do not understand what your point is here, supposing it did happen (there's no remains of it).
>>16523555The post is like forty pounds. Use your man hands and pick it up.
>>16523557Right you don't know what you talking about so now you just spew out nonsense the rest of us have to wade through
>>16523424It's a Greco-Roman world, we're just living in it.
>>16523560>>16523562Why don’t you go eat your Brussel sprouts before your mommy tucks you in for bed, tommy?
>>16523562I think maybe you have me confused for someone else? >>16523564As an Anglo-Saxon (crypto-Danaoi).
>>16523573He is an angry child who is trying to spew shit for no reason.
>>16523576Checks out!
So anyways, there really doesn't seem to be much evidence for Troy in Turkey and I think it should be placed somewhere in either central or northern Europe to work out.
>>16523481Two, actually. A site in the greek dark ages was destroyed violently. And a Greek city emerges from it several hundred years later.The other one is in the LBAC. But a previous site was destroyed (likely by earthquake because there are no corpses), Troy VI I think. Troy VIIa and VIIB are the one violently destroyed.>>16523540Given that you are disputing something that has been mosly settled for the better part of two hundred years now. Go read this book from 1822 and shut up.https://archive.org/details/adissertationon00maclgoog/mode/2upBut then again, there is a non-zero chance you think Troy is in the Baltic. And an even greater chance you think it was in crimea or some stupid shit like that. Which isn't supported by the archeology because we would have found the walls by now.
>>16523424It's almost as if the Illiad and the bible are the foundational literature of western civilization who would've thunk it
>>16523631You knew what I mean but went all ALSHYUALLY. Troy vii was destroyed by siege. If any of them are the real Troy it’s Troy vii.
>>16523631>Which isn't supported by the archeology because we would have found the walls by now.Where in the Iliad are the walls described?And what points will you make for yourself? The geography doesn't match. The ship movements take far too long. Scythian and Balkan tribal people's are primary contingents of the Trojan forces. None of that stacks up with Anatolia.>>16523685It has to be because of the Greek ratings for Troy, but there's not much compelling evidence to me of a destruction by war in the correct age range.
>>16523696Iirc it was found with lots of vases and pots filled with food and the implication was that during that era (stage 7) lots of people who lived in the surrounding countryside were hiding in Hisarlik when it fell. There definitely was some kind of mass upheaval at that time. There wouldn’t be a giant room of storage pots for nothing.
>>16523696>The ship movements take far too long. Scythian and Balkan tribal people's are primary contingents of the Trojan forces. Okay, never mind. I see you’re just fucking around. One of the key kings of the Trojan contingent was the king of Lycians
>>16523708I'm tracking your logic. I'll have to investigate more. Whatever that place was, it was impressive. >>16523713>One of the key kings of the Trojan contingent was the king of LyciansHerodotus said Lycians came from the Balkans .>"But for the time being, battle and shouting were blazing about the well-built wall, and the timbers of the towers crashed when they were struck."-Iliad XII 37Timber towers?
>>16523715https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BellerophonLycia was the southern area of Anatolia. It wouldn’t make sense for Bellerophontes to still be in Greece if he were EXILED to Lycia. Actually, book 6 is interesting for two reasons. The story of Bellerophontes establishes the actions as taking place in Anatolia and it also describes the earliest form of writing being brought there though it implies it was Greeks who brought it (likely Linear B). Bellerophontes brings a message asking the king of Lycia to murder him but he can’t read it because he isn’t a scribe so he never learned to write.This story both squarely places the actions in Anatolia and it sets them during the earliest part of the Bronze Age while the Trojan war is at the very end of it.
Andromache was Hector's wife, an Amazonian, who were placed near the Scythian west. The Dardanians are Trojan allies but they're northwest of Macedonia.
>>16523724>Greece if he were EXILED to Lycia.Are you stupid? Lucia and Caria.which both feature in the myth are in the Balkans at this time. Again,both groups migrate to Turkey later. Please read Herodotus before posting. It's like someone trying to enter a debate on sine wave mechanics and you haven't finished pre-algebra.>This story both squarely places the actions in AnatoliaBalkans. Those are both Balkan nations.
Turkey was a black hole at the time. After Hittite defeat the region was just a vacuum sucking in whichever rulers cared to colonize it.
>In Turkish, it is generally known as Troya or TruvaOttomans did not adopt Turkish until the 13th century. AD.
>>16523424Its more a mythological telling of how the whole mythic age ended. It was started and ended by the gods, for the "most beautiful woman in the world" (who was like 45 by the end of it but nvm) and the story gathers all the most important heroes and explains how their stories finish
>>16523745>who was like 45 by the end of it but nvmIf she was of marriageable age wouldn't she be between 16-20? She'd be 30 tops after the defeat of Troy. If she were travelling with Odysseus she would be 40, but I don't think the rest of his fleet faced Poseidon's ire.
But supposing by Lycian he was referring to Crete it would not matter. Greece was not united. It would make perfect sense to exile someone from one city state for them to end in another- often the case. Also Mt. Ida comes from Idaea, a Scythian princess. Does not make sense for Turkey. Also Scamander opens up into a wide bay whereas the Scamander in the forced Turkey version opens up in a strait. None of the geographic markers match the cultural topography of Turkey.
>>16523748Here is a brief overview of Helen’s lifeAge 20 to 30: marriage to Menelaus At some point here she absconds to Troy with Alexandros.Ten years here she lives with him in sin while Odysseus and other Greek kings make some journeys to cajole the Trojans into giving her back. Homer makes clear that they didn’t immediately invade. They made political trips to the city to get her back.So age 40: the Trojan war BEGINSThe war lasts itself ten years so Helen could be as old as fifty years old by the time Menelaus reclaims her. Odysseus spends twenty years at sea so her appearance in the Odyssey she is age 70? or so. Probably around there.
>>16523771Worth it
>>16523424It's not the actual event that's important (if it even happened) it's that the Illiad uses the event as an excuse/device to essentially tell the "origin story" of ancient Greece. And since ancient Greece itself is considered the "Origin Story" of European civilization, that makes the Illiad (and thus the war it portrays) the cornerstone of what is considered the Western canon.
>>16523424Troy was the Anatolia GW cultute, not that important just a regional powerMycenaeans were on the other hand very important as they were the main agents between the west and esst ends of the mediterranean, and colonized Cyprus and the Southern Levant (Philistines), important points of the mediterranean trade
>>16523715> Herodotus said Lycians came from the Balkans . He never did, since he also said that there1)was an Ethiopian tribe living in Cyprus2)Georgians (Colchians) came from Egypt3)Phoenicians came from the Red SeaAll bullshit to modern linguists and genetists
>>16523424The shaft graves of Mycenae are second only to Egypt in the wealth of treasures, you repeating they were poor or irrelevant won’t make it true, no matter how much you ignore the archaeological record
>>16523858I think you misunderstood some of those points lmfao holy shit
>>16523867No I did not. >lmfao Back to your hole. NOW.
>>16523874You undoubtedly did
>>16523858>>16523867Also Herodotus even said that a Luwian inscription of the kingdom of Mira in Western Anatolia (Karabel inscription) was actually an Egyptian inscription carved by a pharaoh who conquered every land up to ThraceSuch a reliable source on bronze age history, LMAO
>>16523876No arguments,. Just cope based on nothing. Stop wasting my time since you have nothing to say.
>>16523854Troy was a vassal kingdom equivalent to a modern border town. Getting control of the Dardanelles was Greece’s top concern.
>>16523858Nabateans were pirates on the Red Sea and they caused concerns for Egyptian shipping and trading. That is actually true just not that they originated there.
>>16523879>Egyptian inscription carved by a pharaoh who conquered every land up to ThraceThey did. Hence why there are corresponding cities in both named Abydos and Thebes. Hence why the sea peoples invade. Hence why the return of the sons of Herakles happened. You seriously didn't know all this? >Luwian inscription of the kingdom of Mira Herodotus explicitly uses the related name "Milyas" here, the Milyans may have been satraps in league with Egypt:>>16523743>>16523881The Erythraean sea is north of Egypt, not south. Blame British geographers for mucking that one up if you want. Your attack on Herodotus won't prevent Carians and Lycians from being from the Balkans. Strabo backs him up on this and even mocks an Anatolian Troy himself.
>>16523954>DardanellesDardania isn't even in turkey ffs. They ran out of space trying to fit it on the map and just threw it by the Schliemann site ffs. This shit is so I'll contrived.
>>16523971In English, doc?
>>16523879>Luwian hieroglyphs is used in English publications. They are typologically similar to Egyptian hieroglyphs, but do not derive graphically from that script, and they are not known to have played the sacred role of hieroglyphs in Egypt. There is no demonstrable connection to Hittite cuneiform.Tldr this --->>>16523966>the Milyans may have been satraps in league with Egypt:
>>16523696>Where in the Iliad are the walls described?Consistently throughout the epic.>In the Iliad the city of Troy is consistently described as being surrounded by a massive wall built around it (τεῖχος). [25] The wall is of great height, as indicated by the adjectives which describe it: αἰπύς ‘sheer, steep’ (VI 327, XI 181: αἰπύ τε τεῖχος) and ὑψηλός ‘high, lofty’ (XVI 702: τείχεος ὑψηλοῖο). The wall has towers (πύργοι), [26] described once as ‘well built’ (ἐϋδμήτους ὑπὸ πύργους, XXII 195), and ‘beautiful’ battlements (ἐπάλξεις: cf. καλῇσιν ἐπάλξεσιν, XXII 3). [27] It {110|111} has a number of gates (πύλαι) once called ‘lofty’ (ὑψηλαί τε πύλαι, XVIII 275), [28] ‘tightly fitted’ double-doors (σάνιδες: cf. σανίδας πυκινῶς ἀραρυίας, XXI 535; cf. σανίδες τ’ ἐπὶ τῇς ἀραρυῖαι, XVIII 275), [29] and bolts to hold the doors shut (ὀχῆες, XXI 537). >https://chs.harvard.edu/chapter/3-permanence-and-non-organic-structures-walls-in-the-iliad/It's also described as being built by Poseidon and Apollo. Along with this, the Achean encampment is often described as having wooden walls. This distinction wouldn't have been made if both walls were palisades.>The geography doesn't matchState your case.> The ship movements take far too long. A ten year long siege in bronze age conditions isn't particularly realistic either. You have to account the fact you are dealing with poetry in your calculations here.> Scythian and Balkan tribal people's are primary contingents of the Trojan forces.So are Ethiopians&Amazons who are mythical. And the Paphlagonians, Pelasgasians, Carians, and Dardanians, who are Anatolian/Aegean.It's just a catalogue of people the Greeks knew about.
>>16523473>>16523482Troy itself traces its etymology for the Hittite name of the region where Wilusa/Ilion was, Taruisa, which in Greek became known as Troad or Troas, which is the thick peninsula on the Asian side of the Dardanelles. The city and region then became a little interchangeable as the centuries went by.
>>16523983https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_DardaniaThe kingdom of Dardania is named after Dardanus and is north of Macedonia. They're allies of the Trojans. Turkey theorists couldn't figure out where to fit it into their narrative so they just put it in their version of the Troad and hoped no one would notice.
>>16523771To be Fair, timescales in the epic cycle are all kind of fucked. Telemachus is probably like thirty by the time the odyssey takes place.I normally chalk it up to the Homeric-era greeks assuming people and animals in the age of heroes just lived longer.
>>16523991>Consistently throughout the epic.See:>>16523715>>"But for the time being, battle and shouting were blazing about the well-built wall, and the timbers of the towers crashed when they were struck."-Iliad XII 37>Timber towers?Redressed.>>16523991>State your caseSee above. >ten year long siege in bronze age conditions isn't particularly realistic eitherStandard fare. Keep in mind the entire millennium before settlements typically end up being burned at least twice a century sometimes reaching nearly three thousand degrees fahrenheit. I would expect there to be more Troys,not less. Tollense is the biggest battlefield in the ancient world that we actually have proof of. There's not even proof of Kadesh. We don't even know who fought at Tollense. >Ethiopians&AmazonsAethiop is the Greek word for black African. There's nothing mythical about that. You don't know the first thing about the subject.
>>16524009>Telemachus is probably like thirty by the time the odyssey takes place.What's wrong with that?
>>16524009I was thinking about this while showering and I came to the conclusion that Helen’s aging is also likely affected by the fact she is a demigod and Zeus was her father. I’d guess in god years ? her 45 is like 20.
>>16524032You make me understand why Platon hated poets.
>>16524024He is described as being this young man in the flower of youth who would have to acquiese to whoever marries Penelope. Not a thirty year old man.Similarly, Argos is not living thirty years. And Penelope is still a desirable bride despite being very well into her middle age. Never described as old in the poem as far as I can remember.Menelaus, a normal man, is also an old man but this is never specified. >>16524032Normal people also work on warped timescales here. So I don't know. Nestor did have divine favor to live so long, though.
>>16524063>young man in the flower of youth who would have to acquiese to whoever marries Penelope. Not a thirty year old man.Uh I feel so old now
>>16523966>Herodotus explicitly uses the related name "Milyas" here, the Milyans may have been satraps in league with Egypt No he does not. I'm talking about this inscription. And Mira weren't Satrap, we're talking about 1300 BC, not about the Persian empire. >They did. Non sense. No textual or archaeolgoical evidence. Herodotus was talking out of his ass as always. We know well that the Hittite Kingdom and other entities always separated West Anatolia from the Egyptian domains.>Hence why there are corresponding cities in both named Abydos and Thebes Wrong. Those weren't even the original names of said Egyptian cities> You seriously didn't know all this? I seriously knew all of that is bullshit.I see that you have not looked up what the Karabel inscription is, and it's got nothing to do with what Herodotus said. Luwian heiroglyphs and Egyptian ones are unrelated, and that kind was glorfifying himself and not Egypt.The actual inscription:Tarkasnawa, King of Mira (land).[Son of] Alantalli, King of Mira land.Grandson of ..., King of Mira land.The monument may have been mentioned by Heredotus in his history, where he identified the carved figure as the Egyptian pharaoh Sesostris: "... in Ionia there are two figures of this man carved upon rocks, one on the road by which one goes from the land of Ephesus to Phocaia, and the other on the road from Sardis to Smyrna. In each place there is a figure of a man cut in the rock, of four cubits and a span in height, holding in his right hand a spear and in his left a bow and arrows, ... and from the one shoulder to the other across the breast runs an inscription carved in Egyptian hieroglyphics, saying, 'This land with my shoulders I won for myself.' " (Herodotus II.106).
>>16524020Towers can have wooden supports.You haven't adressed the God or Palisade thing. But I have a direct quote. From the Pope translation because it's the one accessible online.>The town her gates and bulwarks shall defend.>When morning dawns, our well-appointed powers,>Array’d in arms, shall line the lofty towers.>Let the fierce hero, then, when fury calls,Vent his mad vengeance on our rocky walls,>Or fetch a thousand circles round the plain,>Till his spent coursers seek the fleet again:This very clearly a passage from the Troyan POV.> I would expect there to be more Troys,not less.If you mean burnt settlements forgotten to history I agree. However. Troy is easily localized by things like the walls, and palaces. Something you couldn't find outside the east med/near east at that time. China aside, ofc.>There's not even proof of Kadesh.Battlefields are ransacked. It was also a very long time ago.>We don't even know who fought at Tollense.Standard fare for pre-history. When you are lucky you gets a few legends.>Aethiop is the Greek word for black African. It means "burnt" literally. It could be anyone with dark skin. It could indians. The point is that the probability they showed up at Troy during the bronze age are minimal.>You don't know the first thing about the subject.You say, implicitly arguing Nubians appeared in 11th century BC thrace/Anatolia without anyone else recording it. Confirming my mythical catalogue thing.>>16524068One forgets this website is like 20 years old now.Don't take it personally, oldlennial.
>>16524071>And Mira weren't Satrap, we're talking about 1300 BC, not about the Persian empire.Other empires have client kings. It's fairly common. Satrap here referred to such. That should have been obvious. The connection between Luwian and Egyptian hieroglyphs supports Herodotus. >No textual evidenceHerodotus is textual evidence. Unless you meant to say contextual, but I already gave you that above with reasons for war and cities having the same name. >We know well that the Hittite Kingdom and other entities always separated West Anatolia from the Egyptian domainsThis supports my point. Luwians were not Hittites. Holy shit. We need to start screening people on this board.>I see that you have not looked up what the Karabel inscription is, and it's got nothing to do with what Herodotus said. Luwian heiroglyphsI have and this was responded to. See here:>>16523966>Herodotus explicitly uses the related name "Milyas" here, the Milyans may have been satraps in league with Egypt:>>16523743 # Mira is likely a reference to Milyas. One is in Luwian, the other Greek. >Luwian heiroglyphs and Egyptian ones are unrelatedhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_hieroglyphsSee here. They are influenced by Egyptian style. But it's not clear that you're even talking about the same thing. Herodotus says there are two and you mention but one copy. >>16524087It clearly uses both rock and wood, that is not disputed by the way. >It could be anyone with dark skinNo, it very explicitly refers to Africans. I can tell you've never touched classical literature. >You say, implicitly arguing Nubians appeared in 11th century BC thrace/Anatolia without anyone else recording it.In Cyprus? Surely. Likely slave trade. Read Eric Cline. Egyptian tin came from Cornwall and lapis lazuli from Afghanistan. People and things got around.
But,I will add, that same passage I'm quoting explicitly says stone was used for foundations and towers from timber. Troy likely looked more like Biskupin than a Milyans fortress.
>>16524103We'd have found the foundations, still. Also you are ignoring all my point and focusing on random minutiae. >In Cyprus? Surely. Likely slave trade.The King of the Aethiopians is said to appear in the Aethiopis, it's lost, unfortunately.
>>16524129>We'd have found the foundations, stillWhat makes you think so? There's literally no connection between the Schliemann site and Troy. It's kind of pathetic you're just picking the first thing you find because it's there. Not a whole lot of academic integrity there. Like the Pylos site has fuckall to do with the Pylos from the Iliad.
>>16523543He's right though.Look at the actual translation list of homer in Latin:https://www.attalus.org/info/sources.htmlThere is a large gap.
>>16524142I see the translations but not the dates. But how could he be right if there's an entire genre of literature that explicitly uses Homeric poetry in Latin if there wasn't Homer in Latin? That doesn't add up at all.
>>16524160Because things were lost and were hard to redescover before the printing press.They got information orally from texts they didn't have until they had them.
>>16524164So they verbally derived a genre from a text they didn't have? Are you retarded? I don't know why you won't must admit that there's a clear black hole of information. That happens.
>>16523424I've read an interesting theory about it. When the Greeks rekt the Trojans, they fled to central Italy and created the Roman Empire. How plausible is it?
>>16524138Big stone foundations are not easy to miss, especially not in a place like Bulgaria or the former USSR, thriving archeological communities existed.> There's literally no connection between the Schliemann site and Troy.(Except all the evidence that you deliberately ignore, including the fact that greeks called the region of the Anatolian dardanelles "the Troad" and not some bumfuck in Thrace)> Besieged and expelled from Byzantium by the Athenians, he did not return to Sparta; but news came that he had settled at Colonae in the Troad,Thucydides, the peloponnesian war, chapter V>It's kind of pathetic you're just picking the first thing you find because it's there.I literally linked an entire book from 1822 linking the topography of Troy to the Schliemann site. But whatever bro.>Like the Pylos site has fuckall to do with the Pylos from the Iliad.It's in close distance to Ithaca.
>>16524170Romans were part of the italian latins until they fought and conquered them.
>>16524170Fuck off, Virgil.
>>16524170So..No.All that eastern stuff is mythological propaganda.
>>16524099>The connection between Luwian and Egyptian hieroglyphs supports Herodotus. They're completley unrelated, and they were used by the Hittites as well, were Hittites also client kings of the Egyptians?>Herodotus is textual evidence It is not. He clearly claims a lot of absurd stuff, including his ridiculous interpretation of Luwian stelae.> and cities having the same name. This is how pseudoarchaeolgoists and pseudohistorians work, they mention names that are vaguely similar and claim that they have found an undeneniable connection without any further evidence. There's nothing approaching material evidence for an Egyptian colony anywhere in Asia Minor or Greece. Also Thebes wasn't called that in ancient Egyptian. The only Egyptian town whose name vaguely recalls that of a Greek town is Abedju which kinda sounds like Abydos, and since there are hundreds of Greeks towns and Egyptian towns it may very well be a coincidence.> Herodotus says there are two and you mention but one copy. There are remains of at least another one:https://www.hittitemonuments.com/torbali/And that description fits this kind of monuments, both for the figure being 4 cubits high, and holding a spear on the left and a bow on his right hand. >People and things got around. He doesn't talk about a few slaves but about a whole tribe.
>>16524180As an additional comment on pseudohistorians. I once read a guy "proving" that Quechua had Norse influence through the absolutely rigorous analysis of "Word A reads like Word B hence they must be related". His book contained such gems as "Olintonatiuh is actually a compound of Odin-Thor-Tyr" and "Tiwanakuh was built by vikings". He was pretty goofy.
>>16524189To De Mahieu's credit, he went all in and claimed the Vikings went on to first found Tiwanaku, lost, and fled either into the Jungle (where they became a tribe in the Paraguay), the pacific (where they became polynesians), or the highest peaks, where they became the Inca nobility.
>>16524195Sea peoples, global version.
>>16524196He also claimed that the Templars and the Troyans visited america, too. It's very fun if you read it as shlocky alt-his.
>>16523748No, its a little known fact but in the Illiad and elsewhere it explicitly states Helen has been in Troy for 20 years.And then we know her daughter was 9 when she was taken, and would be 29 at the fall of Troy.So her daughter is twenty-nine years old. She's no longer going to be a smooth-faced spring chicken like picrel
>>16523771Good timeline. Greeks did get married really young though, so it is plausible she's like early forties. A beautiful woman could still be okay by then, but alot of the war was about honor and sending a message anyways.I'm pretty sure its only another 8 years when seen in the Odyssey (so she's like early 50's) and she actually isnt given the same "Stunning, dangerous beauty" description she gets in the Illiad I think, so she could just canonically be "past-it" once she's clearly old
There's also the story of her being replaced with a cloud-copy of herself in Troy, and being taken to Egypt. So another idea they might have had was the Greeks were fighting over the ageless figure of Helen in Troy while the real, human Helen was wrinkling and melting under the Egyptian sunThere's actually a book by CS Lewis where Helen is aged just 11 years.It starts with Menelaus planning to rape her, but then is embarrassed with his wife no longer being the most beautiful woman in the world, but a faded, wrinkled and greying lady in her 30s. And then has to choose between the aged her or the young cloud-Helen. Its pretty cool, but unfinishedhttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30037800-the-dark-tower
>>16523447No, it's just the strongest conjecture.
>>16524020>>16523991The siege is actually believed to be a token force for most of the 10 years. They just gathered en masse at the first landing and at the final battle during the razing of Troy
>Bump
>>16525199Not even. It's by far the weakest.>>16524170It would put Troy in Slovenia. The bay area would make some sense. Dardania becomes explained as an ally especially. Livy said that the Romans came from Raetia. The language they would have had would be Tyrsenian.
>>16524180>They're completley unrelated, and they were used by the Hittites as well, were Hittites also client kings of the Egyptians? The Hittite hieroglyphs are typologically dissimilar to both, while both are typologically similar to one another. Please reread the provided article.>It is not. He clearly claims a lot of absurd stuff, including his ridiculous interpretation of Luwian stelae.You didn't actually prove that this was even the stele referred to by Herodotus. If you found it's brother you might have a case, but instead you have not, and wikipedia does nothing to assist your case. Further, Herodotus' claims are supported in the area we are concerned about, namely Strabo, who also points out that ancient Troy was lost by his time.>This is how pseudoarchaeolgoists and pseudohistorians work, they mention names that are vaguely similar and claim that they have found an undeneniable connection without any further evidence.But at least there is that! You have fuckall. There is nothing to prove your case. Even your attacks on personalities which are unrelated to the case at hand fall flat because you can't find all of the stelae you need to.>Also Thebes wasn't called that in ancient Egyptian.How is that relevant? We Greece reasserted herself she spread her names anyways, so clearly they thought there was a reason for doing so.>https://www.hittitemonuments.com/torbali/Indecisive, but I will accept this as evidence. Even so, you just found two things that Herodotus claimed were there, and the name Mira supports his naming of Milyas. If anything you're making him look like a genius right now.
>>16523424>Why is the Trojan war so prevalent in popular culture?Same reason why the Three Kingdoms in China is way more popular and well known than pretty much every other Dynasty's collapse - some dude wrote a book about it that got popular. After a while, it seeps into popular consciousness.The Trojan War, through the Iliad and the Odyssey, are extremely popular stories. Like >>16523683 notes, they're effectively the founding texts of western literature. The Odyssey is particular is so prevalent as an adventure story with so many establishing tropes and the word 'odyssey' itself has become a byword for adventure or journey. Odyssey goes from island to island having random ass adventures with a single over-arching quest. From space operas from Star Wars to cartoon fantasy like Avatar the Last Airbender borrows from these ideas.You kind of sound like a retard who fell in asleep in English class and scrapped by because your underpaid teacher didn't want to waste time explaining to you why you're retarded since you're too busy lol'ing at memes instead of reading literature.
