How is it possible for people to believe in communism?
>>16548800Because they agree with the Communist ideology
You have to be extremely fanatical and read their holybooks 10 times
Marx, like Freud, is a reductive and systemmatic thinker who presents what appears to be a total explanation of economic reality (or even reality itself for the True Believers). This schema has extraordinary explanatory power; it can quickly contextualize any historical event. Marx, like Freud, was a human genius who was given his gifts in order to guide humanity, however they rebeled against their creator and denied him, and this caused their genius to serve dark forces.Additionally, Marx (like Freud) was able to articulate a critique of a genuinely evil component of reality: the overexploitation of the masses by the elite. In Freud's case it is a critique of the harsh judgements of man upon those who are caught misbehaving: humiliation, rather than forgiveness.
>>16548806>>16548832chatgpt tier
>>16548800Vulnerable people from single parent households with no father are very impressionable
>>16548800It’s a type of religion. That’s it. It has the same sort of system and dogma to its thinking. Most religions were pagan, community based religions before abrahamism. A “community” religion has many of the same patterns that communism does. The modern 21st century version of communism opts for unamed deities instead of named ones. In shinto, for example, they worship ancestor spirits which have names. But in communism, they worship living, unamed, greater spirits, called, “the community”. Whatever “the community” wants or says, is dogma.
>>16548941Religions are more plausible. Since no one knows how everything started and what happens after death, anything is possiblem. Marxism claims to be rational and to offer you salvation on this earth. How can anyone be retarded enough to believe in it?
>>16548800because they live in shithole countries ravaged by capitalism and feudal like landlordism
>>16549062that's not an excuse to believe in something so stupid
>>16548953The written ‘ideology’ itself doesnt really seem to comment on the afterlife, beyond being anti-religion, but Modern communists (the people themselves) seem to believe in some vague varieties of afterlife. Most marxists believe in magazine astrology and shit like that. If you try to argue against this, they bring up that you are “contrary to the community” (appeal to the deity) and are harassing/bothering them in some way. There used to also be militant atheists but those seem to have died out.
>>16549078it's not stupid at allwhen the feudal landlords say something is bad, that means it's bad for their bottom lines and you have reason to think it's good for you
>>16549135>Most marxists believe in magazine astrology and shit like thatU wot m8
>>16549195The reason why revolution didn't happen in industrialized nations is because such nations had strong labour movements which fought out rights and reform rather than revolution because it was easier to do through legislation.Nations which fell to communism were either ran by complete retards(Kerensky) or Authoritarian Shitheads(Latin America, Africa, Asia).
>>16548800Its not something which needs to be taken seriously anon, at least, not in the country that matters. This isn't a peasant society and in the nations where it actually took root that had some sort of vague pre-industrial proletariat, socialism was already incredibly powerful and sweeping the polls, Russia.In America, a featherweight like bernie can't even get his terminally online supporters to show up at the polls during elections. The youth just won't get out of bed. Any sort of communism is at least 200 if not 300 years away, if ever.
>>16549421Pretty much, yes, they see them as collaborators because they try to appease the workers instead of making them rule.
pure and utter desperation, it’s in most cases replacing one bad thing with someone equally bad, yet the young charismatic idealists who push this shit are too blinded by it to see that it’s absolute bullshit.
fuck it, let’s take it back to the peasant republic of dithmarschen, based, isebrandpilled and revolutionary
>>16549480Is idealism a bad thing? Just because something seems impossible or far, does not mean we should stop trying to achieve, nor does it mean we should equalize the mistakes of the past with the possibilities of the future.
>>16549490well, no, not in itself. it’s when it starts to turn into indoctrination. like mao’s cultural revolution and the ccp’s youth corps.
>>16549179Every communist i have met believes in machine elves, tree spirits, and astrology.
>>16549505hah. fucking idiots. my mother and father both lived through enver hoxha. whenever i ask them about it, they prefer not to talk. says it all, really. but, ofc there will be a new generation of tankies, always influenced by these degenerate forums. all we can do is fight back, chud.
>>16548832I don't know a lot about Freud, but you're spot on when it comes to Marx. He could write, and write well. One of my most based professors (a Jew believe it or not)) warned us about Marx's "seductive prose" and to be careful in terminology because if you start using Marxist terms you're not far from buying into his ideology. Unfortunately the field of history has a lot of Marxists and crypto-Marxists these days.
>>16549572Dude you're scared of Black teenagers.
>>16549627>nigga teens, nigga skalas, nigga rappa’s, nigga youvs
>>16548800Because Marx accurately uses the evidence available to construct a model that accurately explains historical processes and economics. Most notably the the central importance of the modes of production and how they form society and not the other way around, and also how changes in material conditions lead to new modes of production.
>>16549657
>>16549657except his model sucked because every single one of his predictions failed
>>16548800It’s a simplistic theory that pseuds can easily grasp. Take rich people’s money and give it all to poor people. It makes sense, but for some reason dozens of mass starvations just doesn’t sink in that managing an economy is super fucking hard.
>>16549421>social democrats (who actually built better societies)Not so sure about that, troon.
>>16549839Have you ever been to cuba? Its a hellhole. Not that any other latin american country is any better.
>>16549767> Tl; Someone who has never actually read Marx and believes "hE pReDiCtEd a uToPiA iN tHiS eXaCt tImE aNd pLaCe!!!" Like his masters tell him too.
>>16548835Holy shit you guys are just getting more and more braindead everyday. It is shocking.
>>16549904cuba's not a hellhole, it's just really poorvenezuela, on the other hand...
>>16548800Right wingers that hate marx have never read him and even if they did they're unironically too low iq to understand him, they only understand emotion driven garbage like mein kampf (and they love to project their mental deficiencies onto marxists) literal unscientific, religious brained retarded animals
>>16549811Capitalist places that underwent famine. Let's be generous and use 1848 as the "Start" of capitalism>All of Africa>Ireland>Asia>India>Latin America>Europe till after ww2All capitalist, all famines all the time.
>>16548800Same way how Islam suceeds, murderkill everybody to submission. Use of brain is not needed, just blind following.
>>16549062>>16549140>>16550048Who's team are you even on you stupid tranny I thought you weren't on team commie
>>16550038Marx predicted the work week would get longer, it actually got shorterMarx predicted work would get more and more dangerous, now pretty much every job in the west is sit down office bullshitToday the concept of an "owner class" and a "worker class" is basically nonexistent, you can literally go buy some amazon stock on robin hood, congrats you now own part of the means of production, you are officially a capitalist.Also, most importantly of all, Marx did NOT tell people to go around being retards and trying to forcefully implement his predictions. He specifically said of the people trying to implement his ideas that he met during his lifetime "if these people are Marxists then I am not a Marxist." So if you are trying to actually politically implement his ideas before material conditions and technological development makes it possible, you are no better than Pol Pot in terms of actually understanding Marx
>>16548800What I don't understand is why so many ugly nerds support communism. If you were an ugly uncharismatic nerd, under capitalism you still have use, because you can use your intelligence or autistic field of interest or just plain willpower to make money by coding or engineering or doing something else for society in exchange for resources, and thus have some amount of social status. Under communism (and for the sake of example let's not talk about soviet communism or stalinism or whatever, just what if communism somehow magically creates a society where all resources are some how magically equally distributed) under communism you would have no use. Intelligence, working hard, STEM knowledge, etc is all useless, because if you put in extra work you will NOT get anything extra out of it (from each due to ability, to each due to need). Chad can literally never work a day in his life, and he wont need to because food is provided for him, shelter is provided to him, medical care is provided to him, he will never lose no matter how lazy he is or how many bad decisions he makes (IRL Chad might go broke, do something retarded, go to jail, basically he can still "lose" irl). And in this scenario, why would any woman even acknowledge the existence of the ugly nerds when Chad is right there, and resources dont matter? Do smelly internet nerd commies not understand that they will NOT be Chad in this scenario? That they have nothing to gain?
>>16550694>Marx predicted the work week would get longer, it actually got shorterIt only got shorter for jobless NEET retards like yourself. It got longer for everyone else who isn't also a part time sandwich artist.
>>16550038No, I mean every single one of his predictions failed spectacularly.
>>16550742Actually gigacapitalist Henry Ford shortened the work week, while communists still have 169 hour work weeks.
>>16548800people believe in evolution
>>16550742Picrel shows you are statistically incorrectObviously you know you were proven wrong, so you felt the need to lash out. Also, we're on an anonymous image board, so I have no reason to dox myself to prove you wrong. If you want to make accusations of NEEThood, start by posting timestamped proof you aren't a NEET. I likely make a lot more than you, hence why I'm not a seething commie
>>16550042No one asked you to cry here hahahahahahhaha
>>16549140Get cancer you and your whole family.
>>16550785What a vile thing to say.
>>16548800It's a pretty vague economic model And it's clearly more focused on being a societal guide,it offered some good criticisms for capitalism especially at the time Marx was alive but that's that If you actually read the manifesto and especially das capital and have some basic grasp of logistics and distribution you would understand that Marx was a historian that was playing with economics his theory is wrong on fundamental economic levels
>>16550927He is an excellent economist. Hence the popularity. (Not in the manner you concieve of, presumably neoliberal capitalism or macroeconimics, which is just as absurd as Marxism) His mistakes are all in metaphysics, namely materialism.
>>16550943His theory of value is wrong though That's a big fail if you asked meBut yes his metaphysics are pretty bad as well
>>16549062Its illegal to be a communist in my country because they were responsible for millions of killings
>>16548800The same way people believe in evolution. People love things that are fake
>>16550953LTV was not invented by Marx and was common among several 19th century economic theories. The idea he is getting at is accurate, but because he does not know what a soul is he cannot explain how human effort results in that which is beautiful and useful, so he invents the idea of value which does not exist except for daydreaming economists. Actual humans do not think in terms of abstracted numerical value, they consider various factors like beauty, usefulness, moral implications etc. Hence why exchange trade is the mode of economic life in basic societies. It is this damn business of putting a number on everything that has caused us to believe in "value" as an ontologically real thing. I noticed this while very thirsty and buying water to drink, which was no cheaper or more expensice despite my increased need and desire for it.
>>16550943>He is an excellent economist.He wasn't an economist. He never was trained in economics, never got a degree in economics, and never worked in any capacity of applied economics because he was too lazy to get a job.Marx has no economic standing, and neither do psueds like you who shill him.
>>16551019>He never was trained in economics, never got a degree in economics, and never worked in any capacity of applied economicsBoy! You sure sound like a modern neoliberal economist. And you seem to think the modern university system existed unchanged in time. They were quite different in the 19th century and economics departments did not exist. Harvard had 3 history professors in the mid 1800s. There were no corporate LLCs to work for as a management consultant. You are a silly goose.
>>16551041Not him, but he's right, all his ideas are dogshit in no small part to having zero idea how any aspect of industry worked, it's like some tribal nigger declaring an expert in aviation because one time he saw a plane from far away and made a bunch of (un)educated guesses about how it worked, and predictably turned out to be wrong about everything.
>>16550973Ukrainian?
>>16551066You are a repeater of things heard not a thinker. I am a thinker. I had a brief Marxism phase in my 20s and have long since moved on, I am not at all fond of him. The error is the one error of materialism. As in mathematics and logic, a single contradictory premise leads to nonsense. The error is shared by neoliberal economics, which has no reference whatsoever to the divine, and therefore fails to know of the dignity of labor, the importance of fairness, the possibility of social ills created by certain commodities or forms of exchange etc. You can be a thinker but you have to stop allowing simple explanations to content you. It is always more complicated than it seems and you must dig down several layers while restraining from premature conclusion. I invite and encourage you to do so.
>>16548800Communism stems from envy and an inability to grasp basic economics. People who support free markets tend to have higher IQs so you could say IQ plays a role.
>>16551129You sound like a 1950s american dad. The world is bigger than your neck of the woods. The guerillas of the 20th century came from a poverty that is soul crushing and which would cause you complete despair were you to witness it in the flesh.
>>16551120No, I thought about it, and concluded he's a gay retard, and it is entirely that simple.
>>16551200>The guerillas of the 20th century came from a povertyActually a lot of them were middle class radicals but that doesn't dispute my point that communism stems from economic illiteracy.
>>16550759Only the more productive hours are counted now, foolish NEET. If you want to play statistician from your basement, then learn how the data was collected and calculated first.I also accused you first, so your deflection is quite telling. Quid pro quo. You start.
>>16551129This is true. It also explains why free market supporters enjoy cuckoldry on a wider basis, as it is the thinking man's fetish.
>>16550048Cuba is an absolute hellhole
how can anyone belief in Austrian economics?
>>16548800As a person whose grandfather was a communist the answer is pretty simple1. Crippling poverty causing people to become desperate and looking towards Communism as a solution because it's an ideology that promises that will end class divide 2. It's the largest anti-Western ideology that helped bring about tons of revolutions and independence movements around the world. If you we're a third worlder living under colonial rule you obviously turn to Communism because the Soviet Union would back your revolution
Because nobody really knows how economics works.
>>16548953Because people are NOT rational. Well they believed this because of the catastrophic experience of WWI which destroyed multiple empires. God is dead and we killed Him. It was like a millenarian movement that first emerged in Germany and then erupted in that maelstrom in the Russian Empire. Check this:https://youtu.be/800MvyQrKL8It also took off in China which has very different religions. But it's not like this is the first time this has happened in history, it's just that when the end of the world doesn't happen, these movements either recalibrate or die off. It's also interesting that in Russia, Jews, Latvians (former Lutherans) and Poles (former Catholics) were overrepresented but all three nationalities will deny that today. Most converts did eventually come from the Orthodox tradition which had serious consequences for how it was practiced there especially under Stalin, but it makes more sense if you think of it as an attempted Reformation of Russia, a kind of state-building "disciplinary revolution" like what the Calvinists achieved. (That doesn't mean the attempt was Christian btw). I'm also enough of an atheist to view all religious movements as basically man-made and political, no exception here.As far as Marxism... well, I find dialectics to be an interesting way to look at the development of things, or how one thing might destroy another thing, but it also transforms into something new that carries a little bit of the thing it destroyed within itself. Just look at, I dunno, Biden who defeated Trump but he's raising steel tariffs which is a Trumpian move. Trump was the antithesis of Hillary and Biden is the synthesis. Or two armies are fighting and one army captures equipment from the other and thus absorbs a part of that enemy into itself. Everything is always changing and flipping and turning into their opposites, seems like the same is true for communism. But I think it's best to read Marxist /lit/ as historical documents mainly.
Because people are dumb enough to trust economists.
>>16551433>I also accused you firstTherefore you have to give proof first, faggot. Glass houses and throwing stones>If you want to play statistician from your basement, then learn how the data was collected and calculated first.Lol pathetic lazy commie, I actually have evidence, you have literally nothing
>>16549539This, it's extremely easy to spot them if you around 5-10 of their phrases since they all use the same language and rethoric. Kinda like spotting redditors.
>>16551691I can't give proof because I don't know who you are, ESL faggot.>I actually have evidenceExactly, so give it. Until then, you are a plebian parasite as evident by your posts which reek of poverty.
>>16550085Letting people trade with each other has never caused a famine. Preventing it has.
>>16551777Except "free" markets are in reality controlled and regulated by states and conglomerates. There is no such thing as free markets.
Throughout the years I witnessed the proceedings and the result, and concluded the market just isn’t fair or free. Large companies simply have resources to corner the markets that individual consumers have little protection from. As companies face pressure to grow their profits and market share, they are regularly faced with decisions that push the boundaries of ethical or legal competition.Once a company achieves near-total market share they have many methods at their disposal to prevent competition. They can purchase and absorb smaller companies that try to compete. They can price their products to undercut competitors. Or hire away talented engineers from startup companies. Without regulations, we would have far more of this, not less.The mythical “free market” does not exist, and never really did.Sellers seek monopolies and will actively flee free markets as the perfect competition and information sends prices down to next to nothing, beneficial for the consumer but not the producers bottom line.Smith said himself that merchants and corporations will actively seek to distort markets and policy for their own benefit and nothing has changed today. In fact it is even more pronounced in international economics where companies from the developed world attempt to liberalise capital and foreign markets in the developing world while sitting behind an enormous historical wall of tariffs, subsidies and publicly funded R & D that grossly distorts equal entry to markets. It is imperialism under a different guise and has nothing to do with free markets or even non-state capitalism. We rave against protectionism in developing countries while wilfully closing our eyes to the fact that it is one of the main reasons for our prosperity.
>>16548800>How is it possible for people to believe in communism?If people are stupid enough to believe in god they are certainly stupid enough to believe in Communism. There is a scary amount of overlap. Both display religious type thinking.
>>16551812>Except "free" markets are in reality controlled and regulated by states and conglomerates. There is no such thing as free markets.So you are essentially saying there was no point in communism existing because everyone was communist anyway?
>>16551437But leftists are the ones who write articles saying that beng a cuck is smart.
>>16551873>overlapThey're opposites.
>>16548800people are unironic retards
>>16550666that can be said about christinaity, democracy and capitalism as wellthey all submit to a ''higher power''
>>16548800Workers owning their company and voting on things in a council seems simple enough to me.
>>16552694That's because you're stupid.
>“When asked whether or not we are Marxists, our position is the same as that of a physicist, when asked if he is a “Newtonian” or of a biologist when asked if he is a “Pasteurian.”There are truths so evident, so much a part of the peoples’ knowledge, that it is now useless to debate them. One should be a “Marxist” with the same naturalness with which one is a “Newtonian” in physics or a “Pasteurian.” If new facts bring about new concepts, the latter will never take away that portion of truth possessed by those that have come before.>Such is the case, for example, of “Einsteinian” relativity or of Planck’s quantum theory in relation to Newton’s discoveries. They take absolutely nothing away from the greatness of the learned Englishman. Thanks to Newton, physics was able to advance until it achieved new concepts of space. The learned Englishman was the necessary stepping-stone for that.>Obviously, one can point to certain mistakes of Marx, as a thinker and as an investigator of the social doctrines and of the capitalist system in which he lived. We Latin Americans, for example, cannot agree with his interpretation of Bolivar, or with his and Engels’ analysis of the Mexicans, which accepted as fact certain theories of race or nationality that are unacceptable today.>But the great men who discover brilliant truths live on despite their small faults and these faults serve only to show us they were human. That is to say, they were human beings who could make mistakes, even given the high level of consciousness achieved by these giants of human thought.>This is why we recognize the essential truths of Marxism as part of humanity’s body of cultural and scientific knowledge. We accept it with the naturalness of something that requires no further argument.”― Ernesto "Che" Guevara
>>16550742>only got shorter for jobless NEET retards like yourselfwe're in a service economy faggot
>>16548800They realize capitalism cannot go on indefinitely and are thinking outside the box. Their answer doesn't make sense but people long for an answer and an attempt over acquiescence. It's why religion exists. People would rather try something that's probably wrong and see where it goes as compared to give up and be doomed to something that will inevitably fail.
>>16553113but capitalism can go on indefinitely
>>16548800There are many stupid and gullible people. And some aren't, but they're evil and want to see the world burn
Capitalism is the road back to serfdom.
>>16552912Cooperative companies are a successful models today.
>>16553716>but capitalism can go on indefinitelysays fucking who you absolute nigger?how many fucking times has capitalism completely shat the bed in the past 100 years in the US?>1901>1907>1920 and 1921>1927 (big one)>1970s wholesale>1987>2007 and 2008>2020 to todayyou're a fucking idiot cuntcope as much as you want that i'm calling a spade a spade here, but you're clearly retarded if you think the current economic system can "go on forever" as if it hasn't completely shat itself and needed to get its asscheeks wiped by the government on a regular basis
>>16554561Based
Reality is nuanced and complex, but most people aren't able to understand complex arguments, so real complex explanations are only understood by few people.Marxism is simplistic and black and white, it presents explanations that even though are completely wrong they appeal to the lowest common denominator. Because of that lots of people are able to 'get it' and they become popular.tl;dr complex are ideas appeal to the few, simplistic dumb ideas appeal to the uneducated masses
>>16554561>Government prints tons of money>All the new money inflates assets values creating speculative bubbles>People stop believing those assets are worth that much>Asset prices fall>Government prints lots of money again to bail out their croniesNOOOO WHY DOES THE FREE MARKET DID THIS!!!
>>16548800Most westerners don't really believe in it. It's just a way to seem different and edgy, mostly online.
>>16548800Low IQ, envy or/and psycopathy.
>>16550078Dsicussing Leftist ideologies like Marxism and Nazism (Yes, National SOCIALISM is a leftist movement. Read the damned documents.) and thinking they’re worlds apart reveals you as the Low IQ one, Comrade Citizen.I know, I know, “Real Communism has never been tried.” 130+ million corpses say differently.
>>16550078Dsicussing Leftist ideologies like Marxism and Nazism (Yes, National SOCIALISM is a leftist movement. Read the damned documents.) and thinking they’re worlds apart reveals you as the Low IQ one, Comrade Citizen.I know, I know, “Real Communism has never been tried.” 130 million corpses say differently.
>>16554662If the system can't survive inflation, then it needs to change. Simple as that. Even then, inflation was not the exclusive cause of economic turmoil. Hell, it was more of a symptom than anything.Stupid nigger. Go back to eating McShit freshly squeezed from your landlord's cornhole.
>>16548800Because landlords can suck my greasy balls that's why
>>16555037Lol but the system always survives inflation, prices fall and people with savings start buying the assets again and they go up again. Please tell me how is it bad for me if I have savings that prices fall and I can buy things for cheaper? Lol
>>16554561>says fucking who you absolute nigger?Says me.>BUT LOOK AT ALL THESE TIMES THAT CAPITALISM HAS CONTINUED FOREVER?!??!?!Yes.Cope+seethe+dilate
>>16550078>Right wingers that hate marx have never read him and even if they did they're unironically too low iq to understand him, they only understand emotion driven garbage like mein kampf (and they love to project their mental deficiencies onto marxists) literal unscientific, religious brained retarded animalsThat isn't actually a response to how it's possible to believe soviet/chinese communism, it's just reeing at "rwers". Commies would love to shoehorn everyone into either being a communist or a nazi (liberals are nazis) because it makes it a lot more ambiguous whether your genocidal dictatorships were "the bad guys". I've never read Marx, the primacy of economic production and its relation to moral history is believable, but LTV and a dictatorship of the proletariat and central government planning without prices and "muh alienation from labor" and "the workers should own the means of production!" are not.
>>16555037Nooooo the housing market collapsed and all the houses owned by landlords are worth less so I can buy them for cheaper?Noooooo that can't happen!!! The system is flawed!!! We need to change it!!!
>>16555037>>16554561recession = shat the bed = can't go on forever? I thought the liberal democracy thing saving capitalism from itself was inherent to capitalism, since the capitalists run the government too? If anything it would be absurd to claim that an economy can go on growing uninterrupted forever
>>16548800ignorance of true human nature or the intellectual inability to confront both matters.communism is also a religion with its own sacred books, patriarchs and prophets. people hang portraits of communist leaders in their dining room like it's Jesus or Vishnu.publicly doubting great leader is perceived as blasphemous.they also lead inquisitions and witch trials...if you outlaw religion you become religion.
>>16555144It's extremely funny how the same retards that say that capitalism is flawed because growth can't go on forever then claim that capitalism doesn't work because it has phases were it doesn't grow and that we should dump it and embrace their retarded systems that won't have those phases were there is no growth.It's insane how can so many people be so stupid and contradictory.
>>16554486enjoy your wholesome gulags
>>16555118>That isn't actually a response to how it's possible to believe soviet/chinese communism, it's just reeing at "rwers".NTA but I think it's possible that those regimes were catastrophes (and I think Stalin was a paranoid maniac who physically eliminated his opponents), but that much of what Stalinism/Maoism did also had a certain rationality in a terrible world and given a broad set of assumptions Stalin, Mao and many communists shared and were not, like, insane. The issue that bogs down discussion in both anticommunist propaganda and in tankie brain is: being a mostly rational actor = good person who does all the good things.This doesn't get brought up much, but there's also a world of difference between pre-1991 and post-1991 histories of communism with the later (good) "revisionist" histories like Fitzpatrick, Getty, etc. being a lot more nuanced. A reader is still very likely to come away from reading those post-1991 histories as viewing those regimes as a tremendous disaster, but the historians benefited from the Soviet archives opening up and more tolerance in the field for histories that while still anticommunist do not set out to simply demonize them as was the case during the Cold War.What complicates the history more, and goes back to your question, is how ordinary people coped, survived, or made-do during these times. Or how many people actively participated and accepted having everything taken from them in the hope it would lead to a better future. What's especially vivid is how much local activism and pressure there was coming from below on the regime to radicalize (especially crazy and out-of-control young people), even sometimes against the will of the political leaders. (From what I've read recently about Nazi Germany, a rather similar process seems to have been at work there as well.)https://youtu.be/xZQlscG7dcg
>>16548800>This time it will work, you guys
>>16555029Please elaborate on why you think National Socialism is a leftist movement - or are you just pulling it out of your ass?The Nazi party was initially funded by wealthy industrialists as a direct response to socialism and stagnating profits. There is no intersection between the two ideologies—in fact, fascism (and national socialism, by extension) exist solely as reactionary answers to socialism. How do you suppose a movement intended to further empower plutocrats is in any sense a leftist ideology? Are you just saying shit?
I think Nazism was socialist in the same sense that neo-Nazi skinhead punks were punks. They were Nazi punks like there were Nazi socialists. I think there's always been a kind of mimicry and hijacking in fascism, that I wonder whether it exists at all other than as a dark shadow of other ideologies but only really existing to consume them.
>>16554571Cucked.
>>16556230Porno brain
>>16555700>He thinks the fascist leader giving some friends control over some industries, as long as they do exactly what he tells them, is any different than the communist leader giving his commissar friends over factoriesWhy can't retards understand that in a command economy the government has total control over the economy and the whole population no matter the excuses they use to justify it?
>>16550735The idea is simply. Nerds are frustrated so they want a (radical) change to give them a better outlok. So their options are either fascism or communism. In fascism they'd be murdered for being dysgenic, in communism... deep down they probably know it'll never happen but at least if they show support for it they can get some attention from women.
>>16556290You still haven't answered my question, and I doubt you're actually going to. Facist leaders do not empower industry; industry empowers (and installs) fascist leaders. Such was the case with Mussolini; such was the case with Hitler. How is national socialism a leftist ideology? Are you just going to keep greentexting tired strawmen like an idiot, or are you going to say something of substance?
>>16550745You're a fucking idiot.https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1887/12/15.htm
>>16555029>Real Communism has never been triedno communist ever says this, communism was tried and worked phenomenally to turn backwards shithole russia to a world superpower on par with the US - same with china today
>>16551738My evidence is the graph I posted which you have yet to refute. Why would you defend communism if you werent a poorfag esl?
I find it considerably easier to understand a communist than to understand a fascist
>>16553113I'm a little bit convinced that part of the reason the liberal elite chooses continue to fund, support, and bail out of jail commies and other left wing radicals, is that they want to funnel all dissidents upset with the current system into adopting communism instead of letting them think freely and try to come up with their own original ideas>>16556854So why did they lose the cold war? Why is venezuela a poor shithole>b-because you heckin embargoed us, I am entitled to free trade with capitalists because otherwise I'd be poorhahahahahaa
>>16555173It's how pretty much any retarded political radical works, drop in, same some obviously false bullshit that impresses the average 80iq mouthbreather (like prentending LTV is real), talk in circles and just toss in random insults and just act really aggressive and smug whenever someone comes to refute you, then just stop replying. IIRC a lot of these lefties have like discord groups they organize raids and ask for advice on how to reply to rebuttals since they cant think for themselves
>>16556814Lol yeah, cause if Hitler told some industrialists to use the factories to manufacture what he wanted they could just refuse and tell Hitler it was his private property and nothing would happen lmaoThe concept of private property these retards have is so fucking funny.
>>16555607Yeah a lot of people dont understand realpolitik from the POV of the average citizen. Sure, life for the average chinese citizen sucks compared to living in the west, but it sucked way more a century ago. And in some of their eyes, if Mao hadn't done what he did, the westerners would have basically turned china into a larger phillipines/thailand instead of a larger taiwan, and it would have absolutely sucked to be the average chinaman.A lot of soviet/chinese communism is about having the anglo-controlled west (a lot of non-communist russian politics is centered around anglo hate) because in their eyes the anglos controlled everything and basically just wanted to make the rest of the world their slaves. anglos = capitalism
>>16548800Individualism and competition are profoundly, cosmically evil.
>>16556847>https://www.marxists.orgYou're a fucking idiot.
>>16556894>So why did they lose the cold war?because capitalists rotted the USSR from the inside out - the worldwide elite have always had their power and it increases by the day. the USSR was a very tasty meal for these types, they needed to get rid of it and they did. the USSR lost to the worldwide elite put simply. venezuela the same. why would the western elite let venezuelans control their own oil? if you try to break free of the control you get isolated and embargoed into eradication as you have seen with the DPRK
>>16555733The reason they're so similar is because they're both movements of mass politics. Socialists hate being associated with Nazis because obviously in the current year being associated with them is bad optics and will write pages and pages of seethe about how ackshyually the Nazis are all rich people, but the fact of the matter is that the Nazis (and any right wing populist movement) just wants different things than they do. For example right wingers don't want a classless and heirarchyless society, but they do want society to be re-organized so that the people they feel are more deserving or that will be better stewards should be the ones calling the shots in the heirarchy. And they also both use the same tactics, because they're both modern mass politics movements. In the past, politics was reserved for members of nobility, because they actually had knights and weapons and marriage alliances to enforce their political will. Now that pretty much anyone can vote, the rules and gameplay meta are different. Recruiting large swathes of people as opposed to focusing on a small number of powerful allies. Street presence and rallies, as well as using unsanctioned mob violence against the opposing party.The only way to stop this shitty meta from going on would be to go back to making it so that voting isnt just something any low iq retard could do. Make it a minimum requirement that you have to pay income tax to vote or something
>>16556931They really need to start banning you underage children from this site or put a mandatory ID checker on all boards except for your containment boards like /pol/. Fuck off zoomer.
>>16556814>industry empowers (and installs) fascist leadersWhy are billionaires donating to leftists? Why are millionaire lawyers bailing leftist agitators out of jail? Why do megacorporations instantly ban right wing ideas but allow left wing ones free movement on their platforms?
>>16548800Be extremely poor
>>16556854>Be china>Be an impoverished shithole>Have communism for 40 years>Be even poorer than before>Open your economy to foreign investors and foreign consumers (free trade)>Suddenly start becoming wealthyHurrr durrrrrr communism made China rich!!!
>>16556941Wow, so the communists couldnt even control their own citizens or resources within their own borders? How is it the capitalists fault again? I guess allowing a good communist to lay eyes on a pair of blue jeans or a vinyl elvis record instantly turns them into a capitalist sleeper agent
>>16556944>marxists.org is a totally reputable and unbiased source!>heh, I noticed your source is AEI, that instantly invalidates what you're saying cause they're heckin capitalist republican propaganda?
>>16556948>Why are billionaires donating to leftiststhis doesn't happen>Why are millionaire lawyers bailing leftist agitators out of jailthis doesn't happen>Why do megacorporations instantly ban right wing ideas but allow left wing ones free movement on their platforms?are you writing a fiction book?
>>16556854>you HAVE TO kill 60 million people in order to stop being poorare you perchance a brown thirdy?
>>16556962China is based and Natsoc which is why Soros hates them. I was talking about his donations to american "progressive" left groups>>Why are millionaire lawyers bailing leftist agitators out of jail>this doesn't happenhttps://www.cnn.com/2023/03/21/us/bail-reform-bail-charities-invs/index.html>https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/09/03/kamala-harris-tweeted-support-bail-fund-money-didnt-just-assist-protestors/>>Why do megacorporations instantly ban right wing ideas but allow left wing ones free movement on their platforms?>are you writing a fiction book?lol, make some posts on a large subreddit defending fascism and see how long that lasts, meanwhile there are literal subreddits like socialism101 that are allowed to still exist and spread their ideoloogy
>>16556952>Be even poorer than beforethis is incorrect by all metrics, you are extremely uneducated>>16556956what kind of logic is this? are you jewish? "look how attractive porn is... your race is losing to this degeneracy? how is it the jews fault"dumb fuck>>16556959its an archived introduction to Sigismund Borkheim's pamphlet, what isn't reputable about this? its like going into a library, grabbing a book and saying "this book doesn't exist!">>16556966>60000 gorgillion died!why do your people love faking statistics? add another 0 while you're at it
>>16556972american "progressive" left groups aren't leftistshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascismchina is leftist, not those social fascist degeneratestype the word "communism" into reddit and you will only see negative posts, you live under a rock
>>16556974>what kind of logic is this? are you jewish? "look how attractive porn is... your race is losing to this degeneracy? how is it the jews fault"Not everyone who opposes commiefaggotry is a nazi, I am pro-porn, so yes, this is that kind of logic>its an archived introduction to Sigismund Borkheim's pamphletso not Marx's own words and predictions?
>>16556983>I am pro-pornkys
>>16556982>type the word "communism" into reddit and you will only see negative posts, you live under a rockWhy do you need to lie like this? The context of the pic is clearly that they're ridiculing the poster (hence it's "heckerino blursed") Go anywhere on reddit and it's full of pathetic cucks bitching about healthcare and landlords and le hecking late stage capitalism (one of the biggest subreddits) and antiwork (another one of the biggest subreddits)>american "progressive" left groups aren't leftists>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_fascism>china is leftist, not those social fascist degeneratesI feel like you're trying to do the classic leftist "actually we're on the same side" shit. Tell me, what is your opinion on trannies, ethnic minorities, and drugs?
>>16556983...it was authored by engels, do you want me to look for a photo of him writing it? retard
>>16557001Say what his predictions were, and show me evidence they came trueI really don't understand why communists are so hung up on this. Why would admitting some fatass from 2 centuries ago wasnt a clairvoyant prophet delegitimise your movement?
>>16556996i have no reason to lie, search the term yourself and look for all the top non-meme posts and they're all hating on communism>anti-workliterally nothing to do with opposite actually quite the opposite>"actually we're on the same side" shitthe "leftists" in america are seen as rightist degenerates by communists of all states aside from america lmao>trannies, ethnic minorities, and drugsi hold the communist views, the views espoused by marxist theorists and soviets, not the american "leftist" view
>>16548800It gives me hope for a better future. simple as
>>16557016>the "leftists" in america are seen as rightist degenerates by communists of all states aside from america lmaoWestern European leftists believe in the same things. Chinese leftists supported BLM>i hold the communist views, the views espoused by marxist theorists and soviets, not the american "leftist" viewso you're dodging the question?>literally nothing to do with opposite actually quite the oppositedo you even speak english? are you a fucking ESL?
>>16557007you can't read a paragraph directly linked to you? how does it feel to have the IQ of a literal africandon't reproduce
>>16557026>Chinese leftists supported BLMnot true>>16557026>so you're dodging the question?no>>16557026>do you even speak english? are you a fucking ESL?nothing to do with... [communism]use your brain
>>16557028So you can't copy and paste a paragraph? How does it feel to have the IQ of a literal african?
>>16557031ok so you've basically conceded all my points
>>16548800Becuase of the teachers from university that are communists that talks about Communism like a as if it were a thousand wonders. I saw this happening on Brazil.
>>16557044Makes sense. Smart capitalists work jobs that make money. Broke commies radicalize the youth
>>16556959when it comes to marxist theory, marxist.org most certainly is a reputable and reliable source
>>16557031Do these retards ever think about why fucking Jeff Bezos is the biggest supporter of the $15 minimum wage?
>>16556948>Why are millionaire lawyers bailing leftist agitators out of jail?It doesn't cost that much to bail someone out of the clink for being arrested at a demonstration. Most of the time, arrests for blocking a street or failing to disperse is a misdemeanor charge. In the U.S. there are also left-wing lawyers in the NLG (which dates to the 1930s) who volunteer legal services pro bono (they wear green hats), and it's common for left-wing groups to pool their money into bail funds. A "good" left-wing group will also come with a certain commitment to, for example, stay committed if someone is arrested at a demonstration, they wait outside the jail all night until they're released, have pizza and drinks in the parking lot. You don't, like, leave someone behind. They call that solidarity. These are concepts that are just beyond a lot of right-wing organizations. Like the J6ers were just cannon fodder.>Why do megacorporations instantly ban right wing ideas but allow left wing ones free movement on their platforms?Well you have Elon Musk who is the world's richest man, and doesn't he give free reign to whatever right-wing ideas you want to publish? I don't believe in censoring anybody btw.>>16557031>not trueChinese state media got a lot of traction out of BLM. They seem to view racism in America as like a sore which they can push on, which recalls Soviet-era propaganda. Check this out:https://youtu.be/6-tkPRK-QhU
>>16557016>i hold the communist views, the views espoused by marxist theorists and soviets, not the american "leftist" viewYou hold beliefs. Great. So what?Chances are you have done nothing of value with them so who fucking cares?You guys care more about the vanity, aesthetics of things than actual results.Like I'm suppose to give a fuck about the beliefs of someone who has never organized a union, organized a strike, or has done anything to materially make the lives of workers better.All you faggots do is rant and rave online like psueds. Your beliefs, your identity as a communist is little more than a parasocial fetish for fucking losers on Discord and Twitter.
>>16548800You're lookin at it every day in America.people are too weak, cowardly, stupid, ignorant, or entertained to bother with critical thought.All you need is a few true believers or some real pragmatists at the top and the 'sheep' follow suit.I know its been said too much and often by the bleating animals themselves, but most humans are more like sheep than like individualistic norse chieftains or whatever.The vast majority of people, as we see with boomers down to everyone but a few zoomers, just wants a slice of the pie so to speak, you give them that, a nice portion of their desires, keep them entertained, they will follow lockstep with anything and turn a blind eye to the things they really cant abide.
Communism hasn't been relevant as a global force since 1989, I really don't know how anyone could be a true believer in it after the Soviet Union collapsed. And before people screech about "not real communism", Marxism Leninism is the only sect of Communism that really mattered or amounted to anything. The rest of the utopian ones are on the level of anarchists who shit their pants and do nothing.
>>16557304>Do these retards ever think about why fucking Jeff Bezos is the biggest supporter of the $15 minimum wage?One of the "contradictions" in American politics is between these Fortune 500 companies and smaller businesses. The top corporate CEOs can be kind of woke for example in their "social" value structure (although Musk is not), but they will also be union busters. The Republicans meanwhile really are comprised of a mass base of local economic elites. They could be owners of a bunch of McDonald's franchises in Mississippi, a beef-processing plant in Lubbock, a construction company in Billings, commercial properties in Memphis, or one or more car dealerships in North Carolina. They tend to oppose minimum wages because their livelihoods rest on a steady supply of low-wage labor, and they oppose basically any government regulation on their business, and are anti-union too.You see that in the MAGA movement. Like, so many of those guys who comprise the activists are "small business tyrants" and have usually started a second business to sell some MAGA-themed thing (often it's unclear) in the pursuit of their activism. But for Bezos, I think it's mainly because he can afford it because Amazon has so much money and operates on such a huge scale. But remember that Bezos and Amazon are very anti-union. I think the biggest problems with Amazon are the impossible levels of productivity demanded by managers, rampant workplace injuries, and continual burnout and workforce churn which angers workers the most. One Amazon warehouse unionized in the New York area. It didn't get a lot of attention but some of the organizers were close with the Communist Party.
>>16557436Exactly, large corporations want strict regulations and higher minimum wages because they can comply with them and their smaller competitors don't. They don't give a fuck about their workers, they want to force the competition out of the market to have a monopoly. That's why they support a large government with loads of regulations, exactly like leftists.
>>16557459Yeah. You might even be able to pull out Marxist-ish argument in that capitalism's own internal tendencies towards monopoly lead to this anyways, and while that's bad, it ends up creating this huge factory proletariat that can be organized. It wasn't "communists" who did that, but capitalists. There's also a long history of Marxists deriding the small capitalists, small business owners being the political base of fascism and the contemporary far right. The "small business tyrant" is constantly threatened by large industrial capitalists and new / more advanced methods of production, but gains nothing from seizing the means of production either (he already owns them) and he is his own employer so he will not benefit from socialist protection for workers. They fight the bourgeoisie but are not revolutionary, but conservative. "Nay more, they are reactionary, for they try to roll back the wheel of history."There's also a case against, say, the car dealership owners because they don't actually make anything, they just flip cars for a profit -- people could buy cars directly from the manufacturers and cut out the middlemen. This is one reason why Texas and Florida have state laws prohibiting direct sales, it's a result of the car dealership lobby like the National Automobile Dealers Association (a major Republican donor group btw).But this is why I don't think the focus on minimum wage is really all that radical, and it might be better to not have a minimum wage, but you have most of the labor force organized and unionized and they set wages that way. There are some countries like this. Denmark for example has no minimum wage but McDonald's workers receive $22/hour and 6 weeks of vacation among other benefits. When McDonald's entered the country in the 1980s, the unions launched mass strikes and boycotts which crippled the company's operations until they gave in.
>>16548800I'm not a communist (I find the hegelian elements of Communism to be retarded) but there seem to be two main reasons someone might be communist: Firstly, they're a poor worker and they see that their bosses exploit the shit out of them. Those people, in my opinion, often have a fair point. These people and others of their class often make up a significant portion of the soldiers in communist revolts. To them, Communism represents a possible raising of their status and betterment of their conditions. Secondly, you have middle and upper class intellectuals who are more driven by ideology. Part of why they like Communism, I suspect, is the emphasis on equality, the neo-Noblesse Oblige attitude in response to the very real exploitation both historically and presently of the working class, and the historic prominence of a hegelian end of history among academics, almost reminiscent of Christian cosmology. Speaking of religion, among European Jews in the past century or two, their intellectuals would find much appeal in a Cosmopolitan ideology such as Communism from the fact that Jews have oft been persecuted for their foreign faith and culture in Europe, though Jews have historically been of many political and economic persuasions for the same reasons that the French or the Germans have.
>the history of all hitherto existing society is the history of race struggles
>>16549078Nobody SAID it is or isn't an excuse, anon gave an explanation.
>>16556909>>16556948Okay, so you are pulling this all out of your ass. You can just say so - I understand. It's good to get it out of your system. If you actually care to read about the topic:>Pool, James. Who Financed Hitler: The Secret Funding of Hitler’s Rise to Power, 1919-1933. Pocket Books, 1997.>Dutt, Rajani Palme. Fascism and Social Revolution. Internat. Publ, 1935.>Schwarzwäller, Wulf. The Unknown Hitler: Behind the Image of History’s Darkest Name. Berkley Books, 1990.
>>16556944you're trans btw
