It's great that more and more people are beginning to doubt. 1 hour interview. English with Portuguese translation. https://youtu.be/MMz4WImufhU?si=-ymE-JH5PxQzHMg1
Carrier lost what little shred of credibility he had when he started talking publicly about his degenerate hypersexual lifestyle.
>>16552988Jesus existed, but the holocaust never happened.
Even in my secular days I did not see the point of denying a figure called Jesus must have existed to inspire the legends I took to be presented in the Gospels. There is no point at all in being so hyperskeptical, especially regarding a period for which we have almost no textual or material evidence one way or another. You don't see Dutch scholars writing bestsellers about Buddha being a complete lie. I wonder why they are so obsessed with scrubbing Jesus from the face of the earth.
>>16552988>It's great that more and more people are beginning to doubt.They aren't. Carrier literally adds dead people on his list of academics who support mysticism.
>>16552988>But all human efforts, all the lavish gifts of the emperor, and the propitiations of the gods, did not banish the sinister belief that the conflagration was the result of an order. Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. - Roman historian Tacitus in "Annals">You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.- Roman Satirist Lucian of Samosata in "The Death of Peregrine"
>>16552988You can tell he's correct by how fallacious and retarded all of his opponents are. He's addressed every counter-argument reposted here in his book, some multiple times, it would be incredible if anyone who disagrees ever actually read it. >>16553007Neither alleged event happened.
>>16553007>Jesus existed, but the holocaust never happened/thread
>>16553039Both of these quotes are just talking about what the Christians claim
>>16553259Where does Tacitus say "Christians said this man existed"? He doesn't. He just claims he existed as a matter of fact. Anyone with basic reading comprehension can understand this.
This so retardedIf he wasn't born from a virgin, didn't do miracles, didn't rise from the dead, and his name was something else. It's not Jesus.
>>16553466>If Alexander the Great didn't really untie the Gordian Knot, it's not Alexander the Great.>If George Washington didn't really chop down the cherry tree and have wooden teeth, it's not George Washington.
>>16553476You're making his point lol. Retard. There was likely a jewish insurrectionist named chrestus. Claiming he was secretly a magic wizard and no one ever thought to include that when writing about him is beyond ridiculous. But ignore every other detail they did include
>>16553517>There was likely a jewish insurrectionist named chrestus.Despite what Carrier may claim, Jesus Christ and the Chrestus refered to by Pliny the younger aren't the same person. >Claiming he was secretly a magic wizard and no one ever thought to include that when writing about himThe gospels do include that. What are you on about?
>>16553532>The gospels doLook, if we grant what the gospels says as true. This topic is of no concern. Jesus WAS born of a virgin, DID magic, DID rise from the dead, etc
Jesus was a common name in Judea at the time, its literally the old Latin rendering of "Joshua"Christ was a very common title amongst Greek Jews since it was granted to RabbisThe name "Jesus Christ" holds the same exact weight as a name like "Father John". For people alive during Biblical times, the full name and title "Jesus Christ" would've been completely unremarkable. And thats why Paul chose that name for his fictional protagonist. In fact there is even evidence to suggest Paul wrote most of the books of the NT under different pen names. The anthology of the NT is centered largely around the end of the world, with the Book of Revelations being what many consider the NTs magnum opus from a literary standpoint. It was likely Revelations was written first and the other books of the NT were written around it. Paul probably put most of his writing efforts into it because he represented a sect of Apocolypticist Jews
>>16553571citations needed
>>16553571>The name "Jesus Christ" holds the same exact weight as a nameIt means messiah in hebrew
>>16553599It means "anointed one" as in a Rabbi as per Jewish Anointing rituals.
>>16553571So the theory is that the Gospels, which obsessed practically everyone in the Western world for thousands of years, sprung from the mind of Paul as a fiction novel?I'll take that into consideration.
>>16553630We know for a fact that Pauline epistles were literally in circulation while Paul was still alive so the chances of this are actually pretty high.
>>16553641What does this prove about the Gospels, exactly? And why is it surprising that texts are circulating during their author's lifetime?
>>16553653>And why is it surprising that texts are circulating during their author's lifetime?I just find it odd since most of the OT came from oral tradition to be canonized later. It suggests to me that the NT by comparison was clearly written by an author with the intend to have his work in circulation.
>according to History>according to Science>according to the Experts>according to the AuthoritiesYou know you have your very own brain, yes?
>>16553571What do you make of this? >>16553039Tacitus seems to be referring to the Christ of the Gospels, insofar as he was executed by Pilate in Judea during Tiberius' reign. >>16553560Do you think that because the gospels mention plenty of miracles and other unbelievable things, that we can gleam absolutely no historical information from them?
>>16553689The guy is the gospel's name is clearly Jesus. He did miracles, and did rise from the dead.If the historical guy didn't do those things, you must have him confused with someone else.
>>16553476>>If Alexander the Great didn't really untie the Gordian Knot, it's not Alexander the Great.No.It's like saying: If "The historic Alexander" wasn't the son of Phillip 2, wasn't a king, wasn't a conquer, wasn't born in Macedon. Then it's not Alexander the Great.It's not like him being Alexander hinges on his dad being cucked by Zeus. With Jesus, it's kind of important that his dad got cucked by a God.
>>16553712Both the Jesus of the gospels and the historical guy were preachers from Judea who were crucified by Pilate in the reign of Tiberius, and had a group of followers, from which Christianity emerged. What's so difficult to accept about that?
>>16553733>It's not like him being Alexander hinges on his dad being cucked by Zeus.>With Jesus, it's kind of important that his dad got cucked by a God.That sounds like a pretty arbitrary distinction. Why doesn't it matter for Alexander? Because you say so?
>>16553672>It suggests to me that the NT by comparison was clearly written by an author with the intend to have his work in circulationI don't think anyone disputes this, and I don't think it speaks one way or the other with regard to the veracity of events
>>16553742Do you want to try and guess why I think it's important for Alexander to have been a conquer?
If in 1st century Judea, there were multiple apocalyptic preachers. (which people told stories about, that later ended up in the Christian narrative)Can multiple persons be "the historical Jesus"? How does that work?
>>16553769>>16553742Important for Alexander to have been a conquer, but not important that his biological father is literally Zeus. I mean
>>16553794Thomas but his fingers into the wounds, it's the same Jesus
>>16553007Lmao, OP BTFO
>>16555015You're not tracking the conversation
>>16552988Probably; it's not like ancient Judea was lacking in apocalyptic prophets.
>>16553630It might not have been Paul who wrote them. Nobody knows who wrote them. But yes they're fiction. A story about a magic jew flying around on a cloud doing magic powers is fiction. Just like Harry Potter is fiction and we don't need to assume there must have been a "real" Harry Potter.
