>>16553684
Prots triggered over Her because loving Jesus' Mother or having any type of serious relationship with Christianity is idolatry to them
Athiests triggered over Her because She's the Mother of Jesus and they hate all things Christianity like the dirty redditors they are
Jews triggered over Her because they hate all things Christian and especially Jesus-related

>>16553684
It’s atheists who can’t help by kvetch and Protestants scratching their heads and wondering why you wouldn’t just pray directly to God

>>16553684
I find her depiction as a white woman off-putting.

>>16553684
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9AT3jjAP0Y

>>16553723
But race is a social construct, she might not identify as white

So what's the cope for none of the apostles bothering to record the fact she got assumed into heaven? The christian world had to wait for theologycels centuries later to argue backwards that she did?

>>16553761
>So what's the cope for none of the apostles bothering to record the fact she got assumed into heaven?
We have records of the time attesting to this fact.

>>16553723
You got a problem with white women or something?

>>16553795
Who?

Paul only mentions Mary like twice. Clearly she's not a big deal.

>>16553795
Hundreds of years after it supposedly happened. So it’s made up nonsense.

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>>16553842
>All generations shall call me blessed.
>she's not a big deal.
pick one.
Without the mother of God there would be no salvation for anyone. No Mary, no God incarnate.
Also, like Abraham, she had to sacrifice her son, yet in this case, for real, with no mercy, and the most perfect Son that ever existed, the hardest sacrifice ever devised. She had to suffer for the salvation of mankind. Co-Redemptrix.

>>16553871
>when people say they are speaking about X, they actually mean my schizo dark god

>>16553924
Still working backwards to justify it lol
>You see, since she gave birth to Jesus ackchoally that means she is as equally responsible for our salvation as he is - maybe even more so!

Without Mary's grandpa there would be no redemption for mankind...

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>>16553924
>All generations shall call me blessed.
>she's not a big deal.
False dichotomy. Protestants honor, respect, and heed the example she gave. Isn’t it pretty extreme to take all generations will call her blessed and stretch it to praying to her and saying she is the one who saved you from hell.

>>16553976
Mary worship and that prayer is kino, but the Protestants are 200% correct, this is absolutely heretical.

>>16553924
I'm Catholic but I think you're exaggerating a little. placing Christ in a matter of dependence, if Mary did not exist, Christ would still have exactly the same qualities and attributes that he has. To say that Christ depends on someone is to be retarded, Mary, on the other hand, depends on Christ.
and not. I'm not putting anyone down, I know she's not just any ordinary woman

>>16553924
atheist here.
I think Catholicism is incredible for a few years now, but I'm extremely new to this issue, can anyone tell me if this look is correct? Am I "obliged" to venerate Our Lady? even considering its due respect? and why the name "lady"?

The truth you refuse to admit is that worshipping Jesus is just as heretical as worshipping Mary. You rely on 2000 years of mental gymnastics to justify worshipping a man but you really do just worship a man. The Most High is never in your thoughts, he is never the recipient of your prayers. The Almighty is not who you love and who you worship. He is not the god you serve, who you obey and have loyalty to. If there are contradicting teachings between the word of Yahweh and the word of Jesus, you choose to obey Jesus. Your loyalty is to a man and not the Most High.

Your religion revolves around the worship of humans. A human is your god, to humans you pray, the teachings of humans you obey, statues of humans are in your altar and the name of humans you invoke. But since all the humans you serve are dead, the ones who receive your worship and who you truly serve are the pagan demons of the pantheon. You worship the nephilim spirits.

>>16553994
It's only heretical if you believe in sola scriptura. We have tons of Marian apparitions telling people to pray the rosary. Also it's not heretical to ask someone to pray for you so why would it be heretical in heaven? Saint intercession and pleading is in Apocalypse/Revelation too.

>>16553842
Only for a sola scripturaist. If you're not a sola scripturist, the apparitions are a part of your faith and there have been revelations from God and the saints that continued long after the Bible was written.

>>16554129
Very slippery slope you're on if any supernatural occurrence someone can claim is cannon.

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>>16554188
Fortunately, we have a Magesterium, promised by Jesus Christ Himself to be guided and preserved from error by the Holy Spirit,

>>16553684
Because she is the archetype of the OP loli.

>>16554188
Supernatural events happened in the Old Testament and New Testament. Why wouldn't they happen now?

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>>16553976
I've started reading Alphonsus Liguori's "The Glories of Mary" and it's nuts. A saint, doctor of the church, bishop, and of the most widely read modern Catholic authors, produced an entire book of the most extreme Mariolatry and got praise and endorsement for it by his contemporaries. The screenshotted passage is only one of the worst. It also alerted me to the practise from the high middle ages onwards of equating divine Wisdom with Mary, which is something you'd expect from gnostic heretics. They literally quote pre-Christian texts like Sirach and say "this is Mary talking" as if she's a pre-existant divine being.

>>16553970
She is free of the original sin from the moment of conception, therefore she is truly human, not an ape hybrid like you.

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>>16554211
> gnostic heretics
They belong in heaven as you belong in hell with all the ape man like you.

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She's the ultimate hylic filter.

>>16554188
Why are Marian apparitions less believable than God speaking to Moses through a burning Bush? Both are supernatural events.

>>16554202
>loli
How? She's a grown woman.

>>16554211
Catholic bros

>>16554211
>They literally quote pre-Christian texts like Sirach
Dude, the entirety of the OT is "pre-Christian"
>and say "this is Mary talking" as if she's a pre-existant divine being.
All souls pre-exist in heaven.

>>16554211
I want to be Catholic, but this stops me.

>>16554270
It's nothing controversial, it only says that the saints received the grace to santify from Mary, and that many saints exhort people to practive devotion towards Mary.

Nothing of this says worship.

>>16554237
Yes we can become perfected thanks to Jesus. Where do those fathers say humans should be worshipped or that Mary is pre-existent?

>>16554290
Why exactly? Could Moses not be classified as a saint? he had the grace of God.. why only by Mary?
but my problem is with all the statements the author makes and that many Catholics make. His print portrays this well, am I obligated to venerate Mary?

>>16554296
>>16554211
Here

>>16554211
>>16554270
>>16554259
This is actually accurate and the true underpinning in the world. The world is actually gnostic. You are actually wrong.

>>16554311
retarded, didn't you read that they are different concepts with different subjects????
>>16554320
Stop meming

>>16554329
>>16554329
Hmm, so this is how Catholics treat people with doubts and other types of arguments? like a "retarded"?
How beautiful, I didn't know it was like that. Well, I don't want to worry about anything anymore, thanks for the answer

>>16554336
that was very delayed, you're doing well, but you dropped that pearl.

>>16554213
What's even is the point of Jesus healing the curse of death, if Mary already did it?

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>>16554261
You misunderstood my point, Catholic writers quote texts from before Mary was even born and claim the include Mary speaking as Divine Wisdom

>>16554290
"the salvation of all depends upon preaching Mary" is controversial, I woulf wager that even many Catholics would say so

>>16554336
Still doesn't say anything about praying to departed humans, which church fathers explicitly taught against, pic related

>>16554311
Mary is the New Eve, a role unlike that of any other OT figure. Moses wasn't also sinless, nor the Mother of God, and by extension, the spiritual Mother of all humanity. You should study what the Church teaches about Mary, there's a lot to find.

>>16554261
>All souls pre-exist in heaven
Literal heresy, souls are created by God immediately at conception.

>>16554400
>>16554400
with all due respect, but I believe it was you who didn't understand my argument... see, I'm not discussing Mary's lack of sin (even from a Protestant view, she is free of sin) my argument is about:
>received the grace to sanctify from Mary
which again I ask;
Why Maria? Why do they receive grace from her and not from God? Saints like Saint Patrick did similar things to Moses, but in this logic, Moses doesn't have the same sense of grace as Saint Patrick, because didn't he receive grace from Mary?

>>16554427
Well, I'm not the guy you're talking to.
and I don't know how to answer your questions man, ask your nearest church, there are many priests who are scholars of Catholicism, but to be honest I also don't know if I understand very well what he meant. I don't think that the grace to sanctify comes from Mary, otherwise it would put us in a position of almost dependence on God.

>>16554388
Why do you hate the Catholic church l?

>>16554439
Child abuse is a crime against humanity,Anybody that calls some pedophile garbage "father" is a moron.

>>16554427
I see, yes, that is the idea that Mary is the Mediatrix, not the ultimate source, but as a fact, co-redeemer and secondary source of our salvation, since were it not for her explicit consent to God's will, there would be no Savior. Again, you should research the topic, 4chan is not the appropriate place for such an inquiry.

>>16553714
>why you wouldn’t just pray directly to God
What's the answer to this?

>>16554365
No, but seriously?

>>16554450
Praying to Mary increases the efficacy of the prayer.

>>16553795
fucking bullshit you do, provide them then, I and I want to see dates attached to them

>>16553924
>48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers. 50 For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.”

Explain this, Cathtards. lol

>>16554115
no one cares about your heretical rejection of Christ's divinity, raghead

>>16554476
None of the gospels say that, let alone the rest of the bible,when on the earth, Mary had no special privileges in the 1st century congregation. When resurrected to heaven her position will not change.

>>16553684
>succinctly point out that catholics worship mary
>wHy aRe YoU sO tRigGeReD
why are catholics like this?

>>16554536
>>16554516
Because before you die and go to heaven you don't get super powers from God. After you die and go to heaven you get super powers from God.

>>16554449
there would be a savior with or without her.

>>16554523
>raghead
That post mentions that Jesus is dead. Stop the hate from blinding your senses

>>16554427
God goes from God to Mary to others. It's like a waterfall with God at the top.

>>16554553
shut up, mudslime

>>16554427
Grace comes from God then God gives all this grace to Mary then she it passes on to more people.

>>16554559
>God goes from God to Mary to others. It's like a waterfall with God at the top.
just pray to god or jesus, genius

>>16554569
>Grace comes from God then God gives all this grace to Mary then she it passes on to more people.
bologna with no scriptural support at all

>>16554563
take it like a man and apologize for your racism

>>16554578
how am I incorrect? lol

>>16554427
Look boy, I'm not a theologian and I really don't know how to tell you an answer to all your questions. but I had some very similar ones, so much so that I wrote a diary with my questions... today I'm no longer Catholic, but in the beginning what helped me a little was talking to some priests, I don't know if in your country, but in mine there is daily catechism classes. maybe try asking them, they helped me in the beginning

>>16554582
I pointed it out to you previously. Pride is a horrible sin just let go of it anon

Lmao Mary having a shonen protag power creep
>if she conceived Jesus that means she's perfect
>if she's perfect that means she transcends the world
>if she transcends the world that means she always was
>if she always was that means she's the very concept of salvation itself
All of this is just a mental rubiks cube to ponder on but ultimately amounts to nothing but fanfiction and heresy.

>>16554559
>>16554449
Thank you for your time, I still have many questions, but I will follow the advice you said, I will study more.

>>16554584
Thanks friend, yes. It exists in my country, but it’s not that traditional, you know? I don't know if I can count on that. Why did you think atheism is superior?

>>16554600
stop flooding the thread with offtopic posts, you autist

>>16554601
>Lmao Mary having a shonen protag power creep
>>if she conceived Jesus that means she's perfect
>>if she's perfect that means she transcends the world
>>if she transcends the world that means she always was
>>if she always was that means she's the very concept of salvation itself
>All of this is just a mental rubiks cube to ponder on but ultimately amounts to nothing but fanfiction and heresy.
She also had sex after having Jesus. Something else Catholics don't want you to know about.

>>16554606
I'm not an atheist. I am a follower of Allah.

>>16554608
Do racists such as yourself worship Mary?

>>16554616
>She also had sex after having Jesus. Something else Catholics don't want you to know about.
That's what the Bible says.

>>16554063
You're obligated to respect her and acknowledge the virgin birth. Things like the rosary and prayers to Mary are purely optional
t. Non-Rosary Catholic

>>16554621
>That's what the Bible says.
Pretty much, Catholics just larp like "brothers and sisters" means something else than brothers and sisters. Also they're trying to erase the fact that the Jerusalem church lead by James the Just, brother of the lord, was more important church before Constantine.

>>16554211
As a Catholic I agree there's too much emphasis on Mary. The Church is the Bride of Christ, not the Groom of Mary

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>>16554634
>purely optional

>>16554620
>Do racists such as yourself worship Mary?
Where in the Bible does it say I have to suck the dick of Arabs?

>>16554634
thanks
I didn't know there are non-rosary Catholics.

>>16554650
??????? Dude?

>>16554653
"This is mothers'love"

>>16554656
They're semites, you know the form your god took and also his mother. Now answer the question.

>>16554648
We don't care about any of what you just said. Nobody's keeping it a secret

>>16554653
Catholics will tell you this is "iconodulia" which isn't idol worship because they gave it a different name, when any person with their two eyes knows this worshipping idols.

>>16554634
It's not optional in many Catholic ceremonies, and even if it was optional, it's literally saying "worshipping idols is OPTIONAL in our church, that makes it okay". Israel was destroyed for worshipping idols other than God. That it's "optional" doesn't make it not demonic.

>>16554653
>American teenage girls hamming it up for the camera
Shocking. But ultimately there's nothing wrong with this, Mary is the perfect woman and mother, she was saved from death and is in Heaven with God right now. People can't seem to grasp that our "backwards, out-dated desert cult" has a major role model for women and a very active female congregation

>>16554703
She's brazilian little dumb.
It's portuguese language;
"Isso é amor de mãe"

>>16554618
LOL

>>16554694
Nothing in the framework of salvation says anything about praying to Mary. You just have to acknowledge the virgin birth and her blessed status amongst all women. If a parish in your area is saying it's necessary you should report that to the bishop

>>16554694
If you think she has power on her own it's idolatry. If you think she gets her power from God it's not.

>>16554718
Fatima happened anon and is objectively true. If you don't believe in the Marian apparitions I question your Catholicity. Our religion is about Marian apparitions, saint miracles, eucharist miracles, and relics like the shroud of Turin.

>>16554726
That's not so different from what Hindus believe.

>>16554710
And is she not a teenage girl being filmed at what looks like a pseudo-pentacostal prayer-off? Reverence doesn't look like that

>>16554703
>Mary is the perfect woman and mother
Jesus didn't even claim this. If anything, he seems to rebuke the idea.
>she was saved from death and is in Heaven with God right now.
absolutely no evidence she had an Enochian intervention, it's late retcon unless you can provide an actual real source before the 2nd cenutry

>>16554733
Praying to Mary is not a sacrament. It's not required for salvation, simple as

>>16554718
comrade. you're helping me like you have no idea, I'm the "atheist" guy above and I've never heard such counterarguments before. Could you recommend me a book or maybe even a YouTube channel? I'm from Bulgaria and here such things are rare. My family is secular Catholic, they don't even know it's a tabernacle

>>16554733
>Our religion is about Marian apparitions, saint miracles, eucharist miracles, and relics like the shroud of Turin.
that's why Catholics are wrong, relics are interesting historical artifacts, but also like 80 percent of them are probably medieval forgeries

>>16554736
They believe they are all emanations from God or different avatars of God with their own unique power. I believe Mary and the saints don't have power on their own but God gives whatever He wishes to give them.

>>16554745
The people who brought you the Bible say she was taken up to Heaven. Funny how non-Catholics have no problem trusting the Church when it comes to Scripture they agree with, then breaking that trust when they don't like the Tradition

>>16554754
The relics are actual proof God exists. The Shroud of Turin proves Jesus (God) existed.

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>>16554661
Non Rosary Catholics are heretics. Taylor Marshall just owned a non-rosary Catholic on Twitter in the picrel.

>>16554726
God has power. Praying to him has power. That idol does not get any power from anything because it is a work of wood or ceramic. Christ does not work through idols, he works through Himself. Praying to and kissing idols as if those idols have power in and of themsleves is demonic.

1 Corinthians 12:2:
>Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

>>16554756
>"an image in Hinduism cannot be equated with a deity and the object of worship is the divine whose power is inside the image, and the image is not the object of worship itself"
I was talking about this.
>I believe Mary and the saints don't have power on their own but God gives whatever He wishes to give them.
Great so like the prophets when they performed miracles. But why worship her and the saints when the ultimate source of power is perfectly capable of hearing your prayers?

>>16554757
>The people who brought you the Bible say she was taken up to Heaven.
No they do not. Provide a source, you stupid nigger.
>Funny how non-Catholics have no problem trusting the Church when it comes to Scripture they agree with, then breaking that trust when they don't like the Tradition
Because people aren't stupid and know the Catholic Church is a very politically geared organization that has been filled with a history of thugs. Politicians lie. You need to do better than "tradition." Give me a source.
>>16554759
>The relics are actual proof God exists. The Shroud of Turin proves Jesus (God) existed.
The Shroud of Turin was recently debunked. Its image is of someone else other than Jesus. This was covered here in recent threads. Likely there are very few legitimate relics of Jesus or actual apostles.

>>16554753
If you've already read the NT then "Catechism of the Catholic Church" will teach you basically everything you're wondering about right now. You should still try find a local priest or even speak to one online because you will still have questions and after all, that's what they're there for. Good luck brother, lots of disinfo online so learn to debate with the men who dedicated their lives to studying it instead

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>>16553761
I saw the Trent guy talked about it and his answer was that just because there are no contemporary sources that it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen, then he went on a rant about Marco Polo maybe actually not traveling to Asia. It was weird and full of cope.

Im Christian and i will admit that many Christians have issues not accepting scientific topics like evolution but Catholics seem to have a really weird issue with not accepting that some of their views just dont have much historical backing, Mary is big one, they gone back and retroactively added so much stuff to her life. There are a bunch of other things like them not accepting that Mary had other kids later in her life, when historians dont even really argue about, they just go "yeah Mary had other kids".

>>16554766
What a midwit response. The Nicene Creed isn't required for salvation either and may not even be divinely inspired.

>>16554775
>"an image in Hinduism cannot be equated with a deity and the object of worship is the divine whose power is inside the image, and the image is not the object of worship itself"

It's true the statue has no powers in itself. However, in Hinduism, the deities have powers on their own and are able to undermine each other. Those in heaven don't get powers on their own, God grants them the powers and they aren't able to undermine God.

>>16554778
Any organisation made of men is destined to have some form of corruption. So if you don't agree with the very idea of a Church, then you don't agree with Jesus Christ. That being the case I don't have to defend my Church to a heathen. Good day sir

>>16554789
Anyone who rejects the Nicene creed goes to hell. God took hundreds of years to reveal the trinity as an absolute dogma to the world even though the early church believed in the trinity. So God takes a long time to reveal the rosary.

>>16554788
>I saw the Trent guy talked about it and his answer was that just because there are no contemporary sources that it didn't happen doesn't mean it didn't happen, then he went on a rant about Marco Polo maybe actually not traveling to Asia. It was weird and full of cope.
>Im Christian and i will admit that many Christians have issues not accepting scientific topics like evolution but Catholics seem to have a really weird issue with not accepting that some of their views just dont have much historical backing, Mary is big one, they gone back and retroactively added so much stuff to her life. There are a bunch of other things like them not accepting that Mary had other kids later in her life, when historians dont even really argue about, they just go "yeah Mary had other kids".
A lot of what they believe about Mary came from schizophrenic nun's fever dreams. It really is absurd.

>>16554766
>X are heretics because "le epic twitter screencap"
False Christian

>>16554795
The Rosary isn't required for salvation

>>16554795
>Anyone who rejects the Nicene creed goes to hell.
According to who, midwit retard? The qualifications for salvation were clearly defined in the Bible. It didn't say wait for a fucking Roman emperor to make a Pledge of Allegiance. I'm not even arguing what the creed says is wrong, but it's not something Jesus or the apostles said.
>God took hundreds of years to reveal the trinity as an absolute dogma to the world even though the early church believed in the trinity. So God takes a long time to reveal the rosary.
Pure cope.

>>16554802
Nicene Creed IS necessary to be in communion with Christ's Church, and so be saved. Praying the Rosary is NOT necessary to be in communion with Christ's Church.
It's that simple

>>16554791
Okay fair point it's certainly absolute monotheism when you put it that way. But also the use of idols would make it idolatry no?

>>16554766
>>16554795
The Nicene creed is Biblical: John 1:1-1:
>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God
"Let's worship Mary" is nowhere in Scripture. So it''s a false comparison

>>16554788
>but Catholics seem to have a really weird issue with not accepting that some of their views just dont have much historical backing
Because that would undermine the "muh unbroken apostolic tradition handed down from Jesus to Peter to Pope Xanther III" argument, and that a lot of muh tradition really was just theologycels arguing backwards to justify what any reasonable person would consider recent innovations.

>>16554815
No, icons =/= idolatry. The Ark of the Covenant was an icon, but nobody actually thought the Ark had any power of it's own, so it wasn't an idol

>>16554806
>Nicene Creed IS necessary to be in communion with Christ's Church, and so be saved.
Absolutely not, you idiot. Are you saying that Christians that lived before then are in hell? What an absolute dope you are. This is why I can't respect Catholics. You're arrogant self-referential blow-hards who care more about ego masturbation than what the truth actually is. Modern day pharasees for sure more obsessed with your Roman rituals than Jesus's actual teachings.

>>16554824
>Because that would undermine the "muh unbroken apostolic tradition handed down from Jesus to Peter to Pope Xanther III" argument, and that a lot of muh tradition really was just theologycels arguing backwards to justify what any reasonable person would consider recent innovations.
Apostolic succession is absolutely a lie or we wouldn't have had popes that were rapists and murderers. The first bishop of Rome was Linus. Each pope after that is just that, the next bishop of Rome, not the bishop of every church in existence.

>>16554824
>Disciples of Christ cannot make mistakes, they have to literally be as perfect as Jesus all the time
Jesus' apostles misunderstood and got things wrong all the time, it's a recurring theme in His Ministry. That's why there are councils for the Holy Spirit to guide rational discussion between the clergy to correct the ship

>>16554834
No pope is an apostle. Maybe you could make arguments for popes that lived before 100 AD, but suggesting people at that are apostles is ridiculous let alone in modernity.

>>16554833
The truth of the Creed is not dependant upon it. What's true is true, now and forever. But no, you cannot lose salvation for erring through ignorance, so put your hissy fit back in your purse

>>16554841
keep in mind that pope's weren't even a concept in the actual apostolic age

>>16554841
Cool, so you disagree with Jesus Himself. You can stop posting then

>>16554825
The Israelites did not worship the Ark. They carried it around in battle and otherwise sequestered it in the Holies of Holies in the Temple. There are no Biblical verses of them worshipping it.

>>16554844
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, a title inherited from Peter, the first Pope of Rome

>>16554849
Exactly, and Catholics do not worship our icons

>>16554842
All that is proven true is in the Bible. Everything after that is only midrash that is not divinely inspired and may be correct or not. Your attempts to stamp out other schools of thought in regards to these councils is irrelavant to that. Jesus didn't drone on about how you'll go to hell if you don't interpret his divinity in the correct theoretical construct. Counting heresy is important, but salvation is not dependent on this kind of sectarian shit that came hundreds of years later. That's utterly ridiculous.

>>16554857
>Crying to and praying to an idol of wood and stone is not worship>>16554653

>>16554853
>The Pope is the Bishop of Rome, a title inherited from Peter, the first Pope of Rome
The first bishop of Rome is Linus. You believe in literal retcon. The idea of the pope was also a medieval invention, another back construction added to the many others also mentioned in this thread.

>>16553684
You're a polytheist José.

>>16554863
The people who wrote, compiled and copied the Bible are literally the people who founded the Catholic and set it up to function exactly the way it functions today. Like I say, you trust the Church to write and preserve your sacred Scripture, and then ignore all Church teaching beyond the most basic foundational Scripture of our faith, there is an ocean of Catholic thought and discussion but that's all too complicated for Protestants. Throw the Bible out then if you don't trust the Church to teach you about Christ

>>16554868
>Protestants when the Church doesn't change
*autistic screeching*
>Protestants when the Church changes
*autistic screeching*

>>16554866
It's called having a personal relationship with the Mother of Christ. She loves us and we love her, simple as

>>16554825
>28 After seeking advice, the king made two golden calves. He said to the people, “It is too much for you to go up to Jerusalem. Here are your gods, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” - 1 Kings 12
Doesn't this mean that they think these icons were just a representation of God too and not divine themselves?

>>16554873
>The people who wrote, compiled and copied the Bible are literally the people who founded the Catholic and set it up to function exactly the way it functions today.
You'd think they'd have put a bit more in there about the whole needing saints to intercede for you, Mary being equally responsible for humanity's salvation as Jesus etc rather than some off-hand Old Testament comments about the righteous dead having God's ear and Mary saying she was blessed by Jesus' birth though

>>16554634
>>16554750
Ok protestant

>>16554873
>The people who wrote, compiled and copied the Bible are literally the people who
The canon was fixed at the end of the Apostolic period, retard. We have surviving canon lists from the early 2nd century that line up virtually with our modern Bible and are fixed by local councils outside of Rome. If you think people were waiting around for centuries for the bishop of Rome to give a judgement (the official canon under the Roman Church wasn't defined until the Council of Trent in the 1500s) then it's retarded

>>16554895
No it implies precisely that their "gods" are contained within those vessels, which is idolatry. God was already with the Israelites because he doesn't need some sweaty king carrying him around in a golden calf

>>16554873
>The people who wrote, compiled and copied the Bible are literally the people who founded the Catholic and set it up to function exactly the way it functions today. Like I say, you trust the Church to write and preserve your sacred Scripture, and then ignore all Church teaching beyond the most basic foundational Scripture of our faith, there is an ocean of Catholic thought and discussion but that's all too complicated for Protestants. Throw the Bible out then if you don't trust the Church to teach you about Christ
The apostles were all Jews, not Romans, so try again. I like how you autists are so arrogant you won't even recognize other churches even the ones covered in Acts and Paul's letters. This isn't 1500, people aren't ignorant about the true history of the church and the fact that politics and schisms lead to he creation of the Vatican. Anyone who believes in Jesus and follows his teachings is part of the true church. The church in Rome is just the church in Rome.

>>16554897
Did the Apostles heal the sick and banish demons, or did only Jesus do that?

>>16554884
Linus was the first Bishop of Rome. I have the actual historical record on my side. Notice how you immediately went to insults because you have nothing to counter that.

I am being sincere;
I feel bad venerating any saint or even Mary, I think it's a bit """""""matriarchal""""" (maybe effeminate?)for lack of a better term. I can not do that.

>>16554901
The calves were identified as the God that brought them out of Egypt and a replacement for what was in Jerusalem. This doesn't indicate to me that they believed God was literally contained within them.

>>16554905
Did they have any comments about the whole co-redemptrix thing? Explicit comments about her being Jesus' equal?

>>16553684
Is there any kind of official church writing about the limits of veneration of Mary? and what is acceptable and what is not? Mostly from what I see today, I think it's a little exaggerated, too much emphasis.

>>16554905
>Did the Apostles heal the sick and banish demons, or did only Jesus do that?
Apostles who were directly contracted with Jesus in person could, yes. I would question anyone beyond the 72 listed.

>>16554908
Linus was the second Bishop of Rome mate, I didn't see the point in replying to somebody who's just making shit up

>>16554926
>According to the earliest succession lists of bishops of Rome, passed down by Irenaeus and Hegesippus and attested by the historian Eusebius, Linus was entrusted with his office by the apostles Peter and Paul after they had established the Christian church in Rome. By this reckoning he might be considered therefore the first pope, but from the late 2nd or early 3rd century the convention began of regarding Peter as the first pope.[3]
It's literal Catholic retcon that is refuted by the actual documentation.

>>16554920
Of course they had comments about all sorts of things, read the books bro. They're not all-knowing sages, they're fishermen and builders for crying out loud

>>16554909
Genoveva
Deborah
Teresina
Cope

>>16554887
I love my grandmother, who loved me. I hope I have a personal relationship with her. That does not mean I can engage in ancestor worship with her. Or praying to idols of her.

It might shock the Catholic mind that we revere people who we won't pray to as idols/

>>16554922
So when Jesus laid His hands upon them, breathed, and told He has given them authority to tread on snakes and to go forth and preach the Gospel to all Creation in His name (all of this after they had already banished demons and healed lepers without Jesus being physically present), what was all that about?

>>16554936
Not necessary for Salvation, doesn't shock anyone, many Catholics feel this way, we're not a hivemind

>>16554946
My point is that revering Mary, as every good Christian should, does not mean we build idols and shrines to her.

>>16554960
Statues aren't idols but yeah I do remember going to an Adoration and saying the Rosary, for every prayer to Jesus there were 3 to Mary and that never sat right with me

>>16554933
>The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus (St. Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).
Peter was the first Pope

>>16554984
Not what it said, stupid. It said he was appointed as the first pope and that wasn't questioned until hundreds of years later, which is what the Orthodox believe and I have no reason to believe you have more authority than they do. Also if Peter was the first pope, why did James make the decision at the Council of Jerusalem in Acts. Explain that one. I'll be waiting.

>>16554989
It's exactly what it says. What do James's actions have to do with Peter?

>>16555003
James was portrayed as being in charge, not Peter. If Peter was pope, why was he acting subservient to James in regards to decision making?

>>16555033
Why would Peter order another man where to sit? When he's visiting Antioch, James's diocese? Why should Peter instantly know everything and not have to discuss it with other faithfuls and consult the Scripture, which is the entire reason they were having the council in the first place? Only Christ is perfect, Peter is known and acknowledged to be a little slow, Jesus even clowns him for it. He is still the rock of Christ's Church, there's no changing that. Funny you suddenly don't respect the Scripture again when it validates Catholicism. What happened to Sola Scriptura?

>>16555050
>Why would Peter order another man where to sit? When he's visiting Antioch, James's diocese? Why should Peter instantly know everything and not have to discuss it with other faithfuls and consult the Scripture, which is the entire reason they were having the council in the first place? Only Christ is perfect, Peter is known and acknowledged to be a little slow, Jesus even clowns him for it. He is still the rock of Christ's Church, there's no changing that. Funny you suddenly don't respect the Scripture again when it validates Catholicism. What happened to Sola Scriptura?
Yeah, thought so, you have absolutely no explanation for why James was in charge of the council and made the council's decision. Pure unadulterated cope. Also your Catholic midrash regarding what Jesus meant by calling Peter his rock is not scripture. Again, why was James in charge after Jesus died?

>>16555070
Oh sorry I should've said, it was all a big conspiracy so they could supress the real truth Christianity, that of Pastor Joe's Church of the Holy McMuffin of Idaho!

It was James's diocese you clown, he was hosting the council

>>16555108
>It was James's diocese you clown, he was hosting the council
In your previous post you said it was in Antioch, it was Jersualem, you dumbass fraud.
>it was all a big conspiracy so they could supress the real truth Christianity, that of Pastor Joe's Church of the Holy McMuffin of Idaho!
Are you such a shit head you are now denying even the Orthodox Church, which is older than you Roman Pagans, is a church as well? Guess, what Jesus never said there was to be a singe church headquartered in Rome, you midwit. Read the Bible.

If Peter was higher ranking than James, why did James make the decision for the entire faith then? You haven't explained that? Why wasn't it Peter?

>>16555133
>Reading comprehension
James didn't make the decision. Paul made a resounding defence of free grace for all peoples and his camp won the vote. You are literally foaming at the mouth to attack the Catholic Church mate, where is your love for fellow believers?

>>16554973
you're protestant

>>16554899
Point to where in the Bible you're obligated to pray to Mary if you want to be saved.

>>16555165
Nope, nice try though

>>16555141
>James didn't make the decision. Paul made a resounding defence of free grace for all peoples and his camp won the vote. You are literally foaming at the mouth to attack the Catholic Church mate, where is your love for fellow believers?
You literally said here that James idocease was Antioch:
>>16555050

James was the Bishop of the Church in Jersualme, so you have no idea what you are talking about and was caught off guard I even brought this up, because Catholics like ignoring things that contradiction their made up "tradition."

Here's James literally making the decision:

>19 “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood. 21 For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.”

If Peter was in charge over the entire faith, why is it James' judgment then after listening to Peter and Paul? There was no vote. It was James making the decision after listening to Peter and Paul.

>>16555165
>you're protestant
Jesus and the Apostles weren't medieval Roman Catholics

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>>16554873

>>16555170
Or maybe because it's 5am and you're picking subjects out of a hat every time you actually get an answer to your aggressive questioning. It wasn't James's diocese then, it makes no difference. You're expecting Peter to behave like Jesus and have sole authority and understanding. We have councils for a reason. Peter was not in charge of the entire faith and neither is the Pope. Read a book if you're so curious, it's not a secret cult mate this information is the most thoroughly studied subject matter in human history. Go ask an expert if you can contain your hatred for the Church long enough to talk to a priest

>>16555175
>Why doesn't Peter do everything all the time
We should disband the entire clergy and let the Pope do all the work

>>16555180
>You're expecting Peter to behave like Jesus and have sole authority and understanding.
> Peter was not in charge of the entire faith and neither is the Pope.
This is literally the Roman Catholic argument and the entire basis of their belief system. The fact you can easily debunk this just by reading Acts or even Paul's epistles says volumes.

>>16555175
great meme and 100 percent correct

>>16555184
This isn't a simple matter of delegation. Imagine the pope attending a religious council that will have serious ramifications to how the faith will be practiced forever, and then allowing another bishop to preside over it and make the final ruling.

>>16555218
Its like you dont realise the emperor was superior to the pope

>>16555222
>Its like you dont realise the emperor was superior to the pope
Is this supposed to make Catholics look good? LOL.

>>16555222
Further more, midwit, the Council of Jerusalem was not done with the support of the Roman government that was probably in the process of martyring Chrstians at that time.

Bros, I think I may have accidentally worshipped the ido... I mean icon
What do I do? I'm so scared right now I don't want to hell go to hell, guys I'm freaking out I don't wanna go to hell hell don't want to go to hell

>>16555245
Just ask for forgiveness from God/Christ. You'll be okay.

>>16555247
I can't do that, I'm a Calvinist

>>16553684
Because her purity makes roasties and demons seethe.

>>16555272
If you do and God forgives you, then you were always supposed to seek forgiveness.

>>16554616
>She also had sex after having Jesus. Something else Catholics don't want you to know about.
I don't understand why this is an issue, surely sex within marriage isn't a sin?

>>16554778
>Debunked
You DO know carbon dating isn't exactly perfect right? Plus there's evidence that the body it was wrapped around literally just dematerialized

>>16555108
>it was all a big conspiracy so they could supress the real truth Christianity, that of Pastor Joe's Church of the Holy McMuffin of Idaho!
This but unironically, Pastor Joe is based and you're seething.

>>16555455
>I don't understand why this is an issue, surely sex within marriage isn't a sin?
Cathtards invented the idea that Mary was a forever virgin as a dogma. They also doubled for political propaganda reasons already brought up in this thread, namely discrediting James the Just and Jude, the brothers of the Lord's previous high position in the Christian hierarchy.

>>16555581
>They
*This

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>>16553684
She is the Theotokos, the one who gave birth to God. That alone is enough to trigger people.

>>16553684
Fuck, i wanna creampie the most holy Theotokos. She's tight and pink, so cute <3

>>16553684
>Joseph was about to divorce Mary because he knew she was pregnant with a kid that wasn't his
>Mary and an Angel tell him not to because it was GOD who impregnated her and stole his wife's sanctity

Hilarious

>>16553684
Because Chuds are terminally online and don't even go to Church on Sunday. They have no idea what Catholics even believe or practice, they just repeat lies and spam memes.

>>16556634
You are aware God didn't have sex with Mary, right?

>>16553684
Mostly triggers Chinks, poos and jews aka the people who are always triggered

>>16554733
You grossly overexaggerate the importance of Fatima and also it’s status in the Church. It is something we are allowed to believe in, not something we have to. Also the grounds for the miracle are pretty shaky.

>Hey guys if we stare directly at the Sun our vision gets weird!

>>16558426
If you deny Fatima though it's factually like denying JFK got shot. Way too many people saw it. You'd be factually wrong.

>>16555632
His parents were Juba II and Cleopatra Selene II, and the "tribe of Judah" stems from the families of Egyptian-israelite priests going all the way back to Joseph.
This is why Judah technically was not a "Tribe of Israel" in the archeological record - because they were the keepers of the School of Joseph, and an integral part of Egyptian rule and tradition.
When Jesus, the youngest son of aforementioned was crowned as heir of the PRIESTHOOD of Joseph, and Tribe of Massylii (most important priesthood of the Bible, and the "Messiah" lineage of David) as opposed to the Kingdom of Mauretania and Egypt (which was the claim of his other siblings),- he was assigned the "tribe" of Judah as his keepers, as the heirs of Egypt had perfect recollection of who Judah was - especially Juba II whom was the most prominent roman anthropologist and explorer of African (libya and southwards, as the name originally means) info.
Mary and Joseph was given the heir of the Messiah title as their own, just like how Moses was given to the princess for her to raise.
Jesus was always tied to Egypt.
The bible hasn't erased this fact at all, but it simply does not go into detail about his stay and reasons for fleeing to egypt.
It all comes down to the fact that the Herods wete enemies of Egypt and actively killed people that continued egypto-israeli traditions,- like John the Baptist who was named after Oannes.
Jesus insisted on being baptised by John, as a way of signalling that he indeed was acknowledged by the elders of Egypt, and that he acknowledged them back.
It was likely also not lost on Jesus that this parallelled Alexander the Greats insistment on being legitimized by Egypt,- as both of them respected the Greco-Coptic connections of old times.

I'm going to talk about this in the terms I learned during catechism because both English and my native language aren't good enough for this.

"Latria" is the direct cult of the tri-unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. "Dulia" is the indirect cult of the Trinity through observation, meditation or prayer of their acts and words, as manifested by their saints. "Hyperdulia" is the same as Dulia but for when Mary is the medium/intercessor.

Neither latria nor dulia forbid holding cults near statues/paintings of who you are praying for or talking to because you are praying to a symbol that "has content". It's different from praying on symbols of other entities, as per Christian pov there is only one God, in which case you are commiting "idolatria" or cult to an empty/false thing.

You can venerate whoever you want, alive or dead, and you can venerate them through symbols too as long as they are not void of content. So it's ok to venerate your best friend or a picture of your deceased relative but not ok to worship a taiwanese tapestry highschooler character.

>>16558167
>You are aware God didn't have sex with Mary, right?
Yeah, he just magically inseminated Mary's eggs, and the pregnancy was otherwise conpletelt normal lmao.

At least other mythologies are honest with their God fucking some random chick.

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>>16553723
DAS RITE

>>16560215
Why would God need to have sex with a woman to get her pregnant? He's not a very impressive creator deity, let alone omnipotent if he has to conceive a child through sex. The weirdest thing about this complaint is plenty of species reproduce through parthenogenesis, and we can induce pregnancy without sex using modern science via things like cloning, so the idea God can't just do some divine genetic engineering is dumb.

>>16560464
>God just did a magical thing

Ok, but why is everything else about Jesus's birth and upbringing mundane then. Why not make it more divine by Joseph not even knowing she's pregnant and then one day Jesus pops out or some shit, or have Jesus do cool godly shit as a kid. No he's just an irrelevant carpenter without a dad. Who only started doing magic shit when he has followers

>>16554450
Some people's prayers are more valuable than others. You ask God for a favor <<< Mary asks God for a favor on your behalf.

>>16561970
I think there are many reasonable objections to my religion and reasons to be skeptical, but this is a weird objection to methodology. The simple answer is, that's how he wanted to do it, and he never explained his reasoning. He was surely in a better position to make a call on this than two guys talking on the internet in the modern day. I don't really think your suggestions are bad exactly, but I don't think they're superior either, and I do have some objections to them. Having Jesus show up as some sort of child-prophet means he wouldn't really have a normal human life. And that was part of the point, him being human. While unusually wise, he had a mundane childhood and a chunk of adulthood too. God could have made Mary a beggar, but he showed favor to her by letting her be the mother of Jesus, so it would be weird to then deal her such a bad hand. Of course, this is just the way I see things, and isn't any sort of objective fact.

>>16553684
Is there like an IQ threshold where you figure out that pictures =/= the actual thing?
Cathodox legitimately think people hate* the Virgin Mary when they call out Cathodox worshipping pictures*
It’s just a picture.
Okay now someone will respond saying I hate Mary.

>>16553924
Those are some exceptionally smooth and unblemished feet for the 1500s

>>16562946
>entire nonsense fluff paragraph to just say idk bro, God just made it that way. He works in mysterious ways and shit
Lmao
>And that was part of the point, him being human. While unusually wise, he had a mundane childhood and a chunk of adulthood too.
No, that's not the case, as he's a human who's has magical powers and can walk on water. Litteraly no reason for that ability being inert during his childhood and up until he was 30.

C'mon, bro use occams razors. There's nothing known about his childhood because Jesus was just some irrelevant peasant until he his new group of upstarts came about. They worshipped him and anything special he did while following him they called a miracle to help shill him. Simple as. If only Christians were more honest as just accepted him as a prophet.

>>16553684
protestants hate her

>>16563327
I understand why "God works in mysterious ways" is considered a cope, but this isn't a "mysterious ways" situation. this is:
>if god so smart, why he not do what i, some random human 2000 years in the future would do?
Which is a dumb complaint. It's just playing armchair deity.

>>16562952
They hate you for questioning the certainty of WHAT that image instills in their mind.
By questioning the depiction of Mary, you are insulting them for their predictability. For if her image truly has a predictable definite connection to the human psyche,- then what it really is worshipping is that very instinct itself, and not Mary as a person.
It all boils down to people in general being too uneducated to understand why certain images invoke a certain type of response.
Like when seeing a pop-up spider in a book, or a crying baby.
The idol of Mary is a meme, and the memetic illiterates hate you for pointing that out, because they have gaslit themselves into believing the meme and the woman to be the same.

>>16554476
>>16561978
This is a terrible lie, most catholics ask for maria herself and saints to give them protection and save them.
You cannot deny this