And I'm tired of pretending they are not.Hypsistarians were right all this time.
The 4 horsemen of the apocolypse were the dieties Zelus, Ares, Limos, and Thanatos
>>16595596I don't understand why people don't see the connection between Greco-Romanity and Judeo-Christianity, both religions developed from Sumerian myths and both religions have a large tradition of theological exchanges.
>>16595607The Old Testament is full of Interpretatio romana. The Jewish God is often described as being closer to Monolatric than Monotheist, this is significantly more downplayed in the Christian New Testament
>>16595587they're notthe canaanite volcano god is not the indo european sky father
>>16595587Jews were influenced by the pagans around them at times. That doesn’t mean that God is the same as some random pagan diety.
>>16595587There's actually an interesting angle on this.If you actually read the illiad it mentions god constantly.This is distinct from all the other gods which are mentioned by name.Go read it it right now if you don't believe me.
>>16595587You couldn't be more wrong, but I'm not going to explain because you retards will just use the information to further damn yourselves. Just do actual research and stop with these lazy 4chan comparisons. Not that it matters, you're probably going to burn in Hell anyway.
>>16595653Anon, this idea is literally not controversial to anyone who has done any amount of critical research on the Bible and its origins.
>>16595645What are you implying?
>>16595643>Yahweh, storm god like Jupiter>be a son that overthrow his father (Cronus-El)>be in constant fight with his brothers/relatives for being the new King of Gods (Baal-Yahweh vs Yam, Zeus vs Typhon)>wins over a civil war in Heavens (Titanomachy, Gigantomachy, War in Heaven)>have sons that want to overthrow you like you did to your father>have sons replacing you in mortals' hearts (Jesus Christ, Orphic Dionysus, Mithraic Apollo)Etc.
>>165955873 Enoch 10:>God places Metatron on a throne at the door of the seventh Hall and announces through the Herald, that Metatron from now on is God's representative and ruler over all the princes of kingdoms and all the children of heaven, except for the eight high princes called YHWH by the name of their King.
>>16595587>blah blah blah cope cope cope i am perfectly justified in worshiping jew shit
>>16595587For some reason chantards are super receptive to the idea that Jews worship Saturn and thus El = Cronus. But the subsequent reasoning that YHWH = Zeus is completely unthinkable to them. It's obvious. Zeus and Deus are even the same word.
New Christcuck meta where they desperately try to make their jew religion palatable to the anons they are losing to European ancestral religions.
>>16595989It's stormfag logic.>Ha, you kikes are just idolaters who worship the same pathetic pagan gods we do!>WAIT NO I WON'T WORSHIP ANY DESERT JEW SKY DEMON THAT I JUST SAID WAS THE SAME PAGAN GOD MY HUWHITE ANCESTORS WORSHIPEDThey aren't really pagans, they're just schizoid atheist neonazis with jew derangement syndrome. Everything Jewish is bad, and everything is Jewish, so they're stuck in a loop repeating their own contradictory sermons like a broken record for all time. Never become like them.
>>16595587There is a point to be made that the original Sky-Fathers of Greek and Roman mythology, such little as we know of them anyway, bear a more marked and benign resemblance to the Heavenly Father of Abraham, before they were mutated into radically different forms by the Theogeny of Hesiod, the epics of Homer, and the Metamorphoses of Ovid, all of which transformed the religions of the ancients into stultified stock characters for a theatrical performance. The Djous Pater and Di[w]o of 1400 BC were not the same as the Jupiter and Zeus of 100 AD despite the rough continuity of names. It is well possible that the Mycenaeans and early Italics could have been vaguely monotheistic in the veneration of a supreme sky-god who created the world and all the other gods beneath him, in a similar vein to the Hebrew attestation of Yahweh, but that's only circumstantial; by the time the Hellenistic religions had developed and contacted the Jews, they had evolved into something indisputably distinct, no matter how kindly and tolerantly they treated the Jews.
The Christian God was modeled after Jupiter, Yahweh is actually Saturn. They could not be further apart
>>16595989>But the subsequent reasoning that YHWH = ZeusWell yeah? That would loop a European ethnoreligion back into it, and they don't want that. That's why they do dumbshit like being a catboi crusader or a British Israelite, as those claims are fundamentally harmless to Liberalism. That's why they do the cryptognostic bullshit like>Jews worship Saturn and thus El = Cronusbecause that's safe and doesn't require them to commit to system unfriendly ideas.
>>16596193You should probably look into what people believe before actually posting, anon. Platonists are very quick to argue that Yahweh is in fact Zeus and that the Jews are being punished for their bad behavior by him, because what Zeus = YHWH actually wants is Hellenism, not Judaism.
>>16597438>catboi crusadersounds unfathomably based
This is so cringe. I seriously hope you guys aren't being serious
>>16597444are you really going to sit there and pretend that there hasn't been 200,000 threads in the /his/ catalog going >STOP WORSHIPING SEMITIC SKY DEMONS with a picture of Odin in the OP
>>16597414The christian god is ahura mazda and yahweh is angra mainyu
>>16595689(not him you're responding to)the civil war in heaven myth you also find in India (Deva vs Asura) and Norway (Vanir vs Aesir), Babylonia (Enki vs Enlil) The theme seems to be that one group is very warlike, often associated with lightning and other symbols of "Yang" power, while the rival group is more farm-like or interested in commerce, a master of magic. Stripped of its symbolism, it's a story of how the first aristocracies (which are always a warrior hunter culture) came into power over a an agricultural/city/commerce culture. Even the story of Cain and Abel is about this, Abel the pastoral/nomadic/warrior hunter who is the favorite of the Lightning God YHWH, while Cain, the agriculturist is hated by this Lightning god. Cain lives an Abel "dies" because that's what happened with the original Hebrew nomadic culture, they were absorbed into the city culture of the people they conquered, they began "worshiping strange gods" etc. But it's important to note this went on everywhere the Lightning cultures invaded and conquered, they always tried to keep themselves separated from the conquered, via caste systems and active segregation laws/traditions (some of which you can still see in India, where the descendants of the original Vedic Aryan invaders are the upper class Brahmin and the Dravidian natives are the lower class.
>>16595587YHWH is Noahide Jupiter with less testosterone and more estrogen.
>>16595656It absolutely is. YHWH and Jupiter are extremely different beings with totally different personalities and identities.
>>16598191>Dravidianthis has to be the most overused non word, ever, it was literally a designation allotted just for Tamils. a Missionary named Robert Caldwell in 1856 wrote a book called A Comparitive Grammar of the Dravidian or the South Indian Family of Languages, which relied on William Jones's Manusmriti Translation to justify him calling everyone south of india as Dravidian.
>>16598556call them whatever you want then, doesn't change the main point: white warrior culture (Aryans) take over a land and subjugate the locals, creating a caste system and a religion to mentally bind them as well. Hebrews did the same thing Phoenicia/Canaan, either Hebrews or a cousin tribe did the same in Egypt (aka Shepherd Kings). inb4 you nitpick over the word "aryan" or "canaan" or some other bs instead of addressing the main point
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanchuniathon
>>16595989>Zeus and Deus are even the same word.In proto-hellenic the word is 'Dzeus', but because the 'd' was mute, it disappeared and became just 'Zeus'.
>>16596237>all of which transformed the religions of the ancients into stultified stock characters for a theatrical performance.>could have been vaguely monotheistic in the veneration of a supreme sky-god who created the world and all the other gods beneath himWell, we can see the same theological dgeneration this days in Christianity and Islam.In 2006 there was a poll in Italy and people have to choose who was their favorite christian figure, for the shock doers of the poll, Jesus Christ wasn't in the first place, he wasn't even in the first five places.
>>16597414So Jupiter is Jesus Christ then?
>>16598488>Yahweh, storm god like Jupiter>be a son that overthrow his father (Cronus-El)>be in constant fight with his brothers/relatives for being the new King of Gods (Baal-Yahweh vs Yam, Zeus vs Typhon)>wins over a civil war in Heavens (Titanomachy, Gigantomachy, War in Heaven)>have sons that want to overthrow you like you did to your father>have sons replacing you in mortals' hearts (Jesus Christ, Orphic Dionysus, Mithraic Apollo), because you were kinda bully with themEtc.
>>16595836>>16597414>>16597535>>16598302>>16598876>>16599133So who was Jupiter in the end?>Jesus Christ>Metatron>Yahweh / Shaddai>Demarun / Hadad>the union of all the above>another one different of them>just a title>or a popular name between the Gods (like Jupiter I, Jupiter II, Jupiter III...)
>>16599145Yahweh is not just a storm god, and never was just considered such. He was a creator deity that took part in shaping humans in a benevolent manner. Beyond that, just being a storm god is unimpressive. The head deity of many non-Indo-European pantheons is associated with storms and celestial unrest. Yahweh doesn't overthrow anyone. No Jew thinks that, or has thought that. And certainly no Christian.El was not considered an opposing deity, and was instead merged into Yahweh very early on. Baal has a lot of similarities to Yahweh, like their motifs of being opposed by and overcoming serpents, but they were distinguished early on from one another and cannot be synonymized. From an early stage, Yahweh and Baal were as much opposed as Yahweh and Yam or Yahweh and Marduk or any other variety of important god in the region. Beyond that it doesn't actually parallel Jupiter's struggles with the Titans much, either. The War in Heaven is a very late addition to the Bible and was not a foundational aspect of Yahweh's character. Along with the concept of the Satan as a being with a real personality, that was a late addition to the Biblical Canon that came a very long time after the collation of what we'd now consider ancient Judaism. And Jupiter's children want to overthrow him in a very mild way, the gods are always jockeying for power and influence amongst themselves in a petty manner. It is not a dualistic struggle between equal forces of good and evil, as eventually became the view in late Apocalyptic Judaism and Christianity. Jesus is synonymized with Yahweh in all standard branches of Christianity, and beyond that was a late-comer to Judaism. The historical Jesus was born into a Judaism that was already significantly systematized and had plenty of prophets and miracle workers. And significantly, it is likely that his followers were influenced by already popular stories of Dionysus, explaining the connection.
>>16599145>>16599262You are significantly ignoring the actual personality differences between the two 'men'. Jupiter is not a complete cad like Zeus is, but he's also not an empathetic figure. You'd never appeal to Jupiter to save the meek. He is a figure of statesmanship, of authority by a cleverly run government, of imperial might. An austere but magnificent god of governance and dignity. There was almost a degree of secularization with Jupiter's worship where it was bound into stately functions and organized festivals and rituals.And stories of Jupiter are always there to either compliment or critique and redirect the Roman people.Yahweh was always very distinct from this in his identity and personality. He is a benevolent god, even from early on. One that does care for the weak and will assist them in times of struggle (as long as you're not Job). He doles out punishment for immorality, but was not synonymized with good government. And his worship was a complex and shifting balance of public ritual and private prayer. At no point was there any degree of 'secularization' applied to the worship of Yahweh, either. Yahweh was especially opposed to the Roman Empire as well. With them playing the part of his greatest opposition in many later pre-Christian and early Christian myth.
>>16595653>You big meanie my imaginawy fwend will get ya! Lol, these menchild tards are so entertaining.
>>16599264Not really. All his earliest appearences (philologically speaking, not in Bible order) are war songs. He was not benevolent from the start at all.
>>16599269Benevolent to the Jews. The reason that people call Yahweh omnibenevolent today is that Christians redefined Jews to be a metaphor for anyone who hears their preaching and follows their teachings, which they hope to mean everyone in the world. Not an ethnic group.The Jews saw Yahweh as a creator of all, but a lover of them in specific.
>>16599275Correct.
>>16595596don't know who any of these people are
>>16595611radiochan faggot tripfag pushing his retarded disinfo with zero sources again
>>16599299is this another bit of the "hebrews wuz aryans" retardery yet again
>>16598191>Norway (Vanir vs Aesir)there was no aesir vanir war. The first war of the world described in voluspa is a war between gods and jotnar.
>>16595596Damn, who is Jesus?
>>16599434nigger
>>16599445hmm.... i admit my nordic mythology is a bit rusty, but i seem to remember there being a war described between the Aesir and Vanir, and that some of the Vanir were eventually allowed into the Aesir (sorta like how some Titans weren't banished to underworld, but were instead allowed among the Olympians, iirc Hephaestus is one such).The Frost Giants are reported to have been slain by Odin's father or some such, and then a "new race of man" was built from the corpse, which is to say that the conquered people (the Frost Giants) were given new laws, new religion, and forced to serve the conquering Aesir/Asura/Olympians. >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir%E2%80%93Vanir_Waryea you're wrong, there was a Vanir-Aesir war
>>16601047the war described in voluspa doesn't say who the gods were fighting. It mentions the vanir by name >the vanir knew war magic, the trampled the valleysbut vanir is simply being used here to alliterate with war magic (vigsspa). In this context, it simply means "gods" rather than referring to a particular group.>and that some of the Vanir were eventually allowed into the AesirNope. In Lokasenna, it's explained that Njorthr (a vanr) was enslaved by "the daughters of Hymir." Hymir is a Jotunn warlord, Tyr's father, and an enemy of the gods. For some reason, the Jotnar traded the enslaved Njorthr to the aesir. Njorthr then fathered Freyr and Freya while with the aesir.Snorri Sturluson, a christian writing 200 years after the christianization of iceland who demonstrably has no great underlying familiarity and understanding of norse paganism, invented a fanfiction about the aesir and the vanir going to war based on his misreading of voluspa, and he put it into his writings
>>16601141>Snorri Sturluson, a christian writing 200 years after the christianization of iceland who demonstrably has no great underlying familiarity and understanding of norse paganism, invented a fanfiction about the aesir and the vanir going to war based on his misreading of voluspa, and he put it into his writingseh, ok. Doesn't really matter though, because there's still the story about the Frost Giants, and i forget the name of the Frost Giant leader that gets slain and his body used to create a new (subservient) human race. Babylonian/Sumerian has very similar story about how the gods created humanity, though what is really being alluded to is not "actual gods", but an (aristocratic) group that created a new society-- with themselves at the top-- of subservient conquered peoples. (then of course the story of how "mankind had become too loud so Enlil decides to destroy them via a Flood", which is an allusion to the lower castes getting uppity)
>>16596120>New Christcuck meta where they desperately try to make their jew religion palatable to the anons they are losing to European ancestral religions.Nobody cares about your meme prison religion.
>>16595587Exactly right. It's all there.>sea peoples invade Levant>bring aeolic columns with them (found today in Jerusalem)>Maccabees 2 says the Spartans are relatives of the Israelites>both Jove and Yhwh have the same personality traits like being wrathful and vengeful>they both use fire and lightning>Jove is literally pronounced like Yhwh>
>>16601195Algernon Herbert in his "Nimrod" does a very thorough examination of the similarities between all these supposedly "different" cultures/religions. Both Greek and Hebraic cultures/myths seem to have originated (like so much else) with the Sumerian culture. Very interesting read.
>>16597516Are you just now realizing that "Pagan" describes multiple religions?
>>16601254Greeks straight up went into the Levant and invented everything. Read Gmirkin. David never existed.
>>16601141>the war described in voluspa doesn't say who the gods were fighting.It clearly says that the Aesir were fighting the Vanir.>In this context, it simply means "gods"No it doesn't.>it's explained that Njorthr (a vanr) was enslaved by "the daughters of Hymir.Hymir is Odin, anon. A similar structure is found in every Indo-European religion. >For some reason, the Jotnar traded the enslaved Njorthr to the aesir.There are no Jotnar here, the Aesir took him as a hostage. >Snorri Sturluson, a christian writing 200 years after the christianization of iceland who demonstrably has no great underlying familiarity and understanding of norse paganismHis father was a gothi and he quotes poems in the Poetic Edda, and we know that the poetic tradition continued for several centuries after. He has to create a book to send to the Norwegian king because he couldn't find one so we know that he was citing the poetic tradition. He clearly had an understanding of this stuff.
>>16601183Sounds like you're looking for excuses to stay in your basement and be grumpy.
>>16595587No they aren't. Jupiter is a typical Aryan sky-father, Yaweh is a terrestrial Jewish deity.
>>16601294Yhwh is a sky poppy. He literally uses the same weapons as Zeus. You don't remember Sodom, Gomorrah, or Lot's wife? The burning bush? C'mon son.
>>16601302>Yhwh is a sky poppy.No he isn't, he doesn't create the world in his own Chosen people's central text.>He literally uses the same weapons as ZeusNo he doesn't, Yahweh isn't associated with lightning until after Constantine apostatized. At most you get the standard "Baal poking people with the lightning stick" Semitic thing, which is a totally different weapon from Zeus's lightning bolts.
>>16601283>It clearly says that the Aesir were fighting the Vanir.the exact composition of the relevant stanza is as follows (I'm using the CR version, jackson crawford's translation, I don't trust hauksbok)(1) Odin throws a spear(2) The volva narrator says this was the first war in the world(3) Asgard's walls are breached(4) The vanir, knowing war magic, trampled the valleysIt never explicitly says that the aesir and vanir fought. This is why you have to rely on the usage of vanir in stanza 24 as referring to a seperate pantheon, rather than just being a synonym for aesir that can alliterate with vigsspa, because if you concede the latter interpretation, then the stanza reads as only referring to the aesir.>Hymir is Odin, anon.There is an entire poem in the codex regius manuscript where Thor and Tyr break into Hymir the giant's home to steal a cauldron from him. He is transparently not the same figure as Odin. Hymiskvitha is very clear that Hymir is a Jotunn. It says that Tyr's grandmother, who would be Hymir's mother, was a mutant with 900 heads, and having multiple heads is a recurrent theme for describing Jotnar (see For Skirnis)>he quotes poems in the Poetic EddaYes, which is the same thing I'm doing right now. I'm not saying he knew nothing. I'm saying he wasn't privy to anything we in the 21st century aren't. We all have the same info, and are liable to make the exact same mistakes as each other.
>>16599152Jupiter/Dyeus was conceptualized first thoughbeit. So he can't be any of those.
>>16601309>No he isn't, he doesn't create the world in his own Chosen people's central text.The OT was written by Greeks and mirrors Greek origin stories.>Yahweh isn't associated with lightningExcept he is and it's pretty clear that's what happened in the three cases I mentioned.>BaalA semitic plagiarization.
>>16599488Dionysus
>>16599264>Yahweh>benevolentnigga pls
>>16601458Based knower.
>>16601468sus
>>16601481?
>>16601395>The OT was written by Greeks and mirrors Greek origin stories.It very obviously doesn't given that Yahweh doesn't create the cosmos and he doesn't create the world in the standard IE manner. >Except he is No he isn't, there's no lightning involved in any of those events.
>>16601484>je sus>diony sus
>>16595587
>>16601486>It very obviously doesn't given that Yahweh doesn't create the cosmosGenesis is based on the Greek concepts of Protophanes and Phanes. >No he isn't, there's no lightning involved in any of those events.It's the only inferrable conclusion. The descriptions of those three evets match the Orphic descriptions of Zeus' powers.
>>16601355>It never explicitly says that the aesir and vanir fought.It explicitly says that the Vanir take the field after the walls break (23). Asgard has walls around it, but it's an entire land within those walls, it's not just a big castle, so they're taking the field of Asgard. They then assemble (24) to figure out how to divvy up rule of the world. >This is why you have to rely on the usage of vanir in stanza 24 as referring to a seperate pantheonThere is zero reason to think that it's not in fact referring to what is at the time a separate group (obviously now they're just one group, but that's irrelevant).>There is an entire poem in the codex regius manuscript where Thor and Tyr break into Hymir the giant's home to steal a cauldron from him.Yeah, and there's one just like it in the Rig Veda, near beat for beat. This is entirely consistent with us also being told that Odin is Tyr's father. Hymir is Odin hoodwinking his son to achieve some end, something we know that he does (see: Hárbarðsljóð). >Hymiskvitha is very clear that Hymir is a Jotunn"Jotunn" as being strictly referring to a race, rather than just being used for things that are old and strange. The Aesir let in Gerðr and Skaði, both of whom are "Jotunn", so Odin-as-Hymir knocking boots with some foreign yet orderly thing to produce Tyr is entirely within the realm of possibility. Hell, for a time they let in Loki, which while resulting in disaster is still a third instance of some outside-thing coming in and not immediately being rebuked. >I'm saying he wasn't privy to anything we in the 21st century aren't.But he was, he had information that we didn't. His father was a gothi and he was living in a time when these stories were still being told by professional skalds.
>>16601497>Genesis is based on the Greek concepts of Protophanes and Phanes.It obviously isn't. >It's the only inferrable conclusion.No it isn't, Yahweh physically, bodily, appears to the Jews as a tornado of fire, did he need to use lightning for that too? Why even bring in the lightning at all given that we're told that he can do all sorts of other shit? Poetically the entire reason why the vajra has to be used is because it's a poetic device for the God's power, but Yahweh has no such device.
>>16598556Who cares. Now it's a true word who refers to all south indian speakers of the language family. Language evolves, you know?It's the same thing as calling Africa a non-word, because it was based on a single tribe and was used by the romans to refer only to the northern portion of the continent.
>>16601525>It obviously isn't.It is. The Greeks were already thinking about what was there in the beginning and before the beginning in a unique way.>No it isn't, Yahweh physically, bodily, appears to the Jews as a tornado of fire, did he need to use lightning for that tooThis is precisely why I instructed you to study Orpheus. For the Greeks, fire and lightning are the same thing. Zeus is described as wielder of fire.
>>16595989>Zeus and Deus are even the same word.This is retarded. Deus and Zeus are the same word, of course, but Deus was only used to refer to Yahweh after Christianity was already established and within the Roman Empire. Deus is not an old, "true" name of Yahweh, it's just a later translation to latin. "Deus" is just a generic word for "god".
>>16595645What if it was rewritten by Christians to mention God?
>>16601519>It explicitly says that the Vanir take the field after the walls break (23)if you're going to appeal to the sequence of the lines, then I'll remind you that stanza 24 (of crawford's CR version) is preced by a discussion of the attacks of a witch named gullveig, who is said to be the "pride of an evil family," obviously referring to the Jotnar (vafthruthnir explicitly says that Jotnar are inherently evil in vafthruthnismal, as they are descended of Ymir, who himself was made out of poisonous ice from niflheimar.). Stanza 23 in crawford's CR translation indicates that the "first war ever in the world" was fought in retaliation against gullveig (strong evidence she's a jotunn), who attacked the gods. >Hymir is Odin hoodwinking his son to achieve some end, something we know that he does (see: Hárbarðsljóð).All that happens to Hymir in hymiskvitha is that Thor fucking decapitates his oxen and then uses it as bait to fish up the mithgarthsormr, which scares the shit out of Hymir. Hymir plans to chase down and murder Thor and Tyr as they're leaving with the giant cauldron, and Thor kills all of them (presumably including Hymir). I don't know what the brilliant and supremely wise Odin would hope to gain by disguising himself as a jotunn and getting killed (I guess he would just be pretending to be dead?) by his son.And the whole purpose behind harbarhtsljoth is simply to contrast the disposition of the two gods and, thereby, also to contrast the dispositions of their adherents. Thor is the god of the common man, simple farmers and tradesmen, and Odin is the god of powerful viking warlords.
>>16597444>Ultra-Rich Greco-Roman aristocrats write books about how their ideology is obviously correct and those uppity ungrateful hebrews should shut up and stop making everyone uncomfortable and accept the one true faith of the Roman State Pantheon.Of fucking course the Platonists said that. Subverting local beliefs with your own is imperialism 101.
>>16599262Yahweh was a storm god in canaanite polytheism, the beliefs prior to judaism.>>16599264First of all, gods' personality changes over time, what you said about Yahweh can say about any other god, if you compare Bronze Age's Zeus (Achilles' era) and Hellenic Golden Age's Zeus (Alexander the Great's era), you would think they're 2 different gods with the same name. Same with Yahweh, when jews were pastoral nomads, Yahweh was a war/storm god, not the creator nor merciful.Also, both of you forget that Second Temple Judaism and Christianity are based on Hellenism, specially in Platonism, Plato believed that Zeus was the Creator of the Universe, the Omni-Benevolent Demiurge, he called Zeus as Zen (Cause of Life) in his work Cratylus.Plato hated the myths created by Homer and Hesiod, he thought those works were blasphemy.
>>16601458>>16601488Pompeius Magnus thought Yahweh was the 'Iudaean Bacchus' (Jewish Dionysus).
>>16601568Both Deus and Zeus came from the proto-hellenic/proto-latin word Dzeus, in Greece the D was mute, so it disappeared and became Zeus; in Italy happened the other way, Z evolved to J, so became Djous and later Iu, Iuppiter (Iu - Deus, Piter - Pater).
>>16601392Wrong, Dyeus was, not Jupiter, Jupiter came from the proto-italic 'Djous Pater' (Deus Pater / God the Father).
>>16595645>>16595658>>16601579The God of the Illiad is Zeus, Hellenes developed a quasi-monotheism around Zeus, being the gods avatars / angels / manifestations of Him.The Second Temple Jewish God / Christian God / Gnostic Good God (Monad) are all based in Zeus Hypsistos (Supreme Giver of Life).
>>16601652'ZEUS VULT!' - Platonists
>>16602589there's something to be said that Dionysus and Bacchus is just yet another aspect of the war god/lightning god, given that Dionysus myths have him being "born" from the loins of Zeus, and how both Zeus and Dionysus have a similar childhood mythos where they're guarded in a cave by a group of warriors (Zeus by the Curetes, Dionysus by warrior Maenads)>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maenad>According to Plutarch's Life of Alexander, maenads were called Mimallones and Klodones in Macedon, epithets derived from the feminine art of spinning wool.[6] Nevertheless, these warlike parthenoi ("virgins") from the hills, associated with a Dionysios pseudanor ("fake male Dionysus"), routed an invading enemy.[7] In southern Greece they were described as Bacchae, Bassarides, Thyiades, Potniades,[8][better source needed] and other epithets.[9]That being said, I have read about a theory that tries to link Dionysus with Saturn and a cultural tradition of the feminine/female, while Zeus and Jupiter are linked to a patriarchal/male culture. /shrug
>>16602576Yahweh isn't a Canaanite deity, he's Midianite, which is Afro-Arabic from the Sinai region.
>>16601525>Yahweh physically, bodily, appears to the Jews as a tornado of firein Exodus Yahweh "physically, bodily" appears as a lightning storm cloud that follows them around in the desert. And as the other poster said, fire and lightning were conceptually the same to the ancients.
>>16602576>Plato hated the myths created by Homer and Hesiod, he thought those works were blasphemy....whoa....based?
>>16602576>Plato hated the myths created by Homer and Hesiod, he thought those works were blasphemy.Plato was indeed a retard in some points.
>>16604136I know basically nothing about the Roman interpretations of Bacchus, even whether he was an original Latin divinity or something from the Greeks the Romans liked and then purloined.But I did find it interesting that the earliest mentions of Dionysus in Bronze Age linear-B records make no distinctions between him and Zeus, indeed as his name literally is Zeus - Dio. The -nysus is an epithet like Zeus Chthonios or Zeus Sabazios, Sabazios itself being associated with Dionysus. My suspicion is that Dionysus was originally identified with Zeus (Dio) as either the same deity or an aspect of the deity, and was not made separate from him until the Theogeny of Archaic Greece.
>>16604171there's this one online essay that talks about how the Hebrews, circa David and Solomon time period, were worshiping Dionysus, and that Ark is actually his coffin. The author has a bunch of essays showing all the links and similarities between greek myths and Phoenician/Hebrew myths/history. Key take away is that Dionysus is more than likely just another iteration of the lightning-war god that one finds all over the ancient world. can't remember which article it was, but here's one that links Hebrew and Greek myth-historyhttps://docs.google.com/document/d/1-gSYCPPKnwzHnEiBndgB-ZPUHXEduOziDoQFhTxSPCs/pub
>>16602576Jupiter and Zeus weren't the same god.
>>16604249
>>16604271They aren't.They're derived from the same Sky Father template, but they are absolutely different gods with different means of worship and different views by those under them. You cannot synonymize views of Zeus among Greeks with view of Jupiter. Another example, Mars and Ares aren't the same god. Ares is often depicted as a fool. Mars is treated as a proud and intelligent soldier. Zeus and Jupiter are as different as those two.
>>16595587>religious iconography commonly depicts Gods as being seated all around the world because Gods are kings and commoners interact with kings while they are seated in a throne>therefor sameretard.
>>16604286>the gods are REAL>there's actually over 20 different lightning and 50 different war godsyou're a retard. Yes, there are differences between the different iterations, because as time and distance went on, the original stories got muddled. The point is that there is an origin point which they all seem to share, which is why there's so much that is SIMILAR and can't be explained as "mere coincidence". Now go be retarded somewhere else.
>>16604336Retard, it doesn't matter if they had the same origin. What matters is the expression. Jupiter and Zeus were not the same god. They weren't considered the same god except as a convenience for understanding other cultures, they weren't worshiped the same, and they were considered to represent different things. This isn't muddling, this is different ethnicities changing their own cults to fit their societies. Platonism's view of Zeus was not held by non-Platonist Romans.
>>16604358>it doesn't matter if they had the same origin.If you're only studying the current "expression" of each religion, then yea. Which i get is interesting and all, but let's say you're a Jew or Christian or Muslim who suddenly learns that you're worshiping an "expression" of what was originally a war god/demon? Then it absolutely does matter what the origins were.
any christians have explanations for why jesus fled to the same egyptian oasis that mythological zeus went to and historical alexander went to ? why was the traditon of the amun oracle in the siwa oasis added to the gospel? why was it important that jesus complete the same quest as zeus and alex ?because christianity is a fictional amalgamation.
>>16604371These current expressions are millennia old today. Zeus and Jupiter diverged significantly far ago, and only ever became closer over time as the Greeks were Latinized.
>>16604381Right, I'm sure there's no connections between the Hebrews and the Egyptians prior to the Ptolemies...
>>16595587jesus was a sandnigger
>>16604387>Zeus and Jupiter diverged significantly far agowrong. As you go farther back in time, to the origin point, the closer all religions become. It's the same with languages.
>>16604469No. We reach points where there are fundamental differences between them that cannot be solved or ignored. Jung was wrong on that topic.
>>16604486>fundamental differences>they're both lightning gods of War>they're both gods>fundamental differencessorry, but you're wrong. There's more evidence that these religions, myths and cultures share a common (albeit, distant) cultural history than otherwise.
>>16604503Zeus and Jupiter both descend from the sky father, but you cannot take the Sky Father back even further in time and try to create some kind of stock figure for all human religion. Beyond that you still fail to actually appreciate the differences between Zeus and Jupiter. Zeus is a god of Arete on a personal level. Jupiter is a god of imperial dignity and strength.
>>16604559>you still fail to actually appreciate the differencesand you still fail to appreciate the similarities.Jupiter wasn't *just* a god of imperial dignity and strength. Nor was Zeus just a god of arete. Jupiter existed before the Romans even started their empire expansion. Even the Romans and Greeks acknowledged that they essentially worshiped the same entity by a different name.>you cannot take the Sky Father back even further in time and try to create some kind of stock figurethat's actually exactly what you can do. Turns out it wasn't a god at all, just some local warlord who found out you could subjugate large groups of people with ease by creating a religion for them.
>>16604588Yes, I wasn't being wholistic, but that is the most basic division between them. Zeus was a god of a champion, as a figure that achieved greatness for themselves. Jupiter was the god of a nation that was great as a collective. Rome's aspirations for imperial power are basically foundational to the society. They always carried that arrogance on their shoulders. The latter is pure speculation as you'd see in some 1910s book about human religious history. The bad side of modernism that focuses on narratives rather than data.
>>16604612>Rome's aspirations for imperial power are basically foundational to the society.>Rome was imperialistic even b4 they were imperialisticyou really should just stop talking, it's abundantly clear you have no clue what you're talking about.>Jupiter is imperialistic because Rome had an empire>Zeus wasn't imperialistic even though Greeks had an empire under Alexanderthe bad side of modernism is that any idiot with an internet connection can spout of about things they don't know much about. Please stop talking.
>>16604703>Rome ever not being imperialistiche fell for the eternal latin lmao
>>16604988>Rome invented its own past.>it was never a republic. It was an empire from the get goi know this is 4chan and highly prone to really bad conspiracy theories, but please at least try not to be an utter stereotype. Next you'll be telling me the US always existed since the days of Atlantis, and then something about how Islam is the new hip religion to join.
>>16604271>>16604286>>16604336>>16604358>>16604387Zeus and Jupiter being different gods can be found in Quintus Fabius Maximus Cunctator rants against Hellenism and the Hellenization of the Roman Republic.This is one of the reasons of why the Gens Fabia hated so much the Gens Cornelia. Because Quintus as Pontifex Maximus saw the Hellenization as corruption of the Roman Ethos (values, morals, religion, culture) that will destroy the Republic from the inside, turning it into an oriental Persian-like multicultural shithole (future Byzantium) where the Pax Deorum and the Roman citizen-soldier longer ago disappeared and were replaced by barbarian gods (Jesus Christ, Isis, Serapis...) and barbaric systems of government.For Fabius Maximus comparing the pious and ascetic Jupiter with the hedonist and unfaithful Zeus was one of the worst blasphemies.
>>16601608>"pride of an evil family,"No, it says that she was the pride of wicked individuals. >(strong evidence she's a jotunn)We do not have any evidence of this as both Odin and Freyja are attested as having been besought by magical skullduggers, meaning that she could at minimum by Freyja or some other entity. >I don't know what the brilliant and supremely wise Odin would hope to gain by disguising himself as a jotunn and getting killed If we're at the point where we're saying that Snorri was writing "fanfiction" then the answer is obvious: because Thor kills Jormungandr, or at least grievously wounds him, duh. The poem isn't clear who is being hit, and it has traditionally been interpreted as Thor hitting Hymir due to Snorri implying that Jormungandr is still around. This is to say nothing of the the fact that the actual point of Hymiskviða is for Thor to get Hymir's cauldron. We have zero reason to doubt Snorri on this, and if we do it undermines your argument anyways.
>>16604136>>16604171>>16604226>>16602589Dionysus is linked to Zeus in the same way that Odin, Lugh, Shiva, etc are all linked to madness. Dionysus, "that which is of Zeus", was madness in the same way that the Muses were inspiration. This isn't just anthropomorphism, the Greeks viewed powerful mental phenomena as literally being implanted in their hearts (which they thought with) by the divine. When you come up with a cute little ditty to hum, a Muse put it there. When you go crazy, Dionysus (on Zeus's orders) made you crazy. It makes sense from a Roman perspective to see Judaism as a massive religioneurosis focused on propitiating Dionysus through insane levels of ritual purity to ward him, and by corrollary his father, off.
>>16604358>Platonism's view of Zeus was not held by non-Platonist Romans.Well, no, Plato's views of Zeus are pretty bogstandard IE-Skyfather shit. Every Ancient, Medieval, and Modern Asatruar could tell you that Odin made Midgard as a place for mortal souls to acquire virtue so as to better serve him after death. Likewise, even the Antihellenic Romans were pretty clear that Jupiter ruled the world and that all other races bowed to him, they were just fucking it up unlike the Romans who got it right. The similarities in their cults, theologies, and descriptions makes it obviously absurd to say otherwise.
>>16605259>No, it says that she was the pride of wicked individuals.the exact term it uses refers specifically to individuals who belong to a "folk" or a "nation." That's why crawford translates it as "family.">meaning that she could at minimum by Freyja or some other entity.Freyr and Freya are twins, and Freyr was explicitly born after Njorthr came to be a part of the aesir, which, if we're assuming the aesir vanir war occurred at all, would be after its conclusion. Gullveig being Freya is chronologically impossible.>The poem isn't clear who is being hit, and it has traditionally been interpreted as Thor hitting Hymir due to Snorri implying that Jormungandr is still around.The poem is very clear. Thor hits the jormungandr, and then it somehow gets away from him.>The bold Thor>pulled bravely>to bring that poison-slick>serpent up on board.>With his hammer,>he struck a blow>on the head of>Fenrir's serpent brother....>but that sea monster>sank back into the waves.
>>16605071Rome literally admits to conquering its neighbors "for their own good" in their own propaganda histories, are you stupid? The Latin Man's Burden was the name of the game since 750 BC.
>>16605309>the exact term it uses refers specifically to individuals who belong to a "folk" or a "nation." That's why crawford translates it as "family."The exact word is "brúðar", the genitive indefinite singular of "brúðr", meaning bride, but semantically a woman. The line is>æ var hon angan illrar brúðar.Meaning "ever was she sweet of an evil bride". I have no idea why Crawford thinks that a word for bride would refer to anyone except women, which is presumably why both Larrington and Bellows render it as "women". I just watched his video on the poem, and around 10:15 he discusses the stanza in question, but he doesn't actually comment on this. >Freyr and Freya are twins, and Freyr was explicitly born after Njorthr came to be a part of the aesir,Only according to a typo that Snorri makes. She had to be born before the Aesir-Vanir war in order for Freyr to go with Njord to the Aesir as a hostage, and she had to be born before Njord and Skadi met as Loki uses her feathercloak to get into a fight with Thjazi. Even if we ignore the Poetic Edda saying otherwise it doesn't make sense in the Prose Edda alone for Freyja and Freyr to be born only after Skadi shows up.>The poem is very clear. Thor hits the jormungandr, and then it somehow gets away from him.Right, like I said, he hits Jormungandr and Snorri agrees. The traditional sntisnorri reading is that Snorri is wrong because if Thor hits Jormungandr then it doesn't make sense why Jomungandr is still alive ergo Snorri got it wrong.
>>16605234>Roman Ethos (values, morals, religion, culturebecause only the Romans had those?the ancient greeks, or elements within them, bemoaned the "loss of values" just as the Romans did. There's isn't as vast a difference between these "separate" peoples, and these similarities happen all over the ancient world. You can keep trying to pretend that they come from different planets and had absolutely nothing in common, that they developed independently from each other for thousands of years, and then suddenly meet each other right when writing and records were invented, one of those happy accidents, but one which apparently has happened all over the world, with all cultures and all tribes, each with their "totally independent pantheon of gods". Everyone just independently discovered gods, and then started attributing similar myths and ideas to them. Oh yes, very believable.
>>16605407and before 750BC? I can admit they have been rather busybodyish in respect to neighbors defense, but they never really "ruled" or "conquered", not like they did much later during the empire days. Unless the argument is that all ancient peoples were "empire builders", but if that's the case, even remotely so, then it still makes me wonder why you (or whomever it was that started this tangential argument) say that "Romans were imperial from the start, hence Jupiter being different from Zeus, because Greeks were never imperial", which is quite untrue. The Greeks were constantly trying to lord it over each other, and behaved much like the Romans, even their oracles were considered part of a singular religion, where even romans considered the delphic oracle to be higher status than the local Italian ones. But keep pretending like Jupiter and Zeus don't have a common origin, one upon which later accretions or rationalizing myths by the people give the facade of difference and uniqueness.
>>16605503>I have no idea why Crawford thinks that a word for bride would refer to anyone except womenhe's using the codex regius version of the poem, which uses the term "thjothar" (folk) where the hauksbok manuscript version uses the term "bruthar." I am partial to the codex regius version over and above the hauksbok version, primarily because haukr erlandsson was known to cut up, edit, and revise the poems in his compilation. >She had to be born before the Aesir-Vanir war in order for Freyr to go with Njord to the Aesir as a hostageOnly Njorthr was taken as a hostage by Hymir. Njorthr says in Lokasenna>I had some good from that (being enslaved),>when I was sent from the west>as a hostage for the gods.>I fathered a son (Freyr)>beloved by all,>considered a hero among gods.the language is somewhat ambiguous, but Njorthr appears to be saying that he fathered Freyr while he was enslaved by Hymir.>because if Thor hits Jormungandr then it doesn't make sense why Jomungandr is still alive ergo Snorri got it wrong.I'm not following your argument here. What exactly did snorri get wrong? Hymiskvitha is preserved in the codex regius, which was not written by snorri.
>>16595587The iconography on that coin suggests to me the person depicted is Elijah.
>>16595607lots of greco-roman mythology comes from the steppe and overlaps with other people who came from the steppe, it is inaccurate to say that it developed from sumerian myths. it was just influenced by them.
>>16605657>he's using the codex regius version of the poem, which uses the term "thjothar" (folk)That makes sense as to where it gets it from but it doesn't support the argument that it's talking about the Jotnar because "Jotunn" isn't a race, it's just a classification for things. Secondly, it's still in the indefinite. "Thjothar" is the indefinite singular genitive, meaning that it's referring to a race not present. If it was referring ot the Jotnar (or the Vanir or Aesir) it would be in the definite. >Only Njorthr was taken as a hostage by Hymir. In Lokasenna, but Snorri says otherwise, and the entire point is pointing out that when Snorri does make an error we can see it as an error in Snorri without the Poetic Edda.>I'm not following your argument here. What exactly did snorri get wrong?The argument (I do not subscribe to this) is that Snorri implies that Thor hit Jormungandr, but that can't be the case as Jormungandr and Thor fight at Ragnarok. Presumably, it comes from the idea that if Thor and Jormungandr fight Thor will win, but then he'll die of the venom, ergo whenever this happens it plays out that way, so they couldn't have fought during Hymir's boattrip as then Thor would die during the boattrip instead of Ragnarok. This is getting far afield, but the point is that we do not have reason to believe that Njorð was kidnapped by Jotunn through obscure terminological quibblings, and we have no reason to think that Snorri would make up the Aesir-Vanir war. Your entire argument presumes that he made it up and thus we have to find clues in the Poetic Edda.
>>16599488Mitra-baldr-dyionisus-apollo-helios
>>16605726Adding onto this, we do have attestations in the Poetic Edda that allude to the Vanir being a separate class of entity. Gerðr references "Elves, Aesir, and the wise Vanir" as a class, and while "wise" obviously has to be there, "Vanir" doesn't unless the Vanir are a third class of being (why ask him if he's an As twice?). Skirnir then says that he is not one of the three, meaning that Vanir and Aesir were understood as separate things for him to possibly be. Sigdirfumal similarly lists the Aesir, the Elves, Mankind, and the Vanir.Furthermore, in Lokasenna, Loki says that Njorð was sent as a hostage to the GODS (goþum), which means that 1) he wasn't a God at the time of his enhostagement and 2) he was sent to whoever was the Gods. So, the Aesir and Vanir have to be separate classes unless Njorð is supposed to be a Jotunn. This matches up with what Snorri implicitly tells us: that Hymir is one of of Odin's disguises, thereby manifesting the pan-IE "the Striker gets the cauldron from the Skyfather" myth.
>>16595587anybody here know more about zeus and alexander's quest to the oracle in egypt?
>>16605726>but it doesn't support the argument that it's talking about the Jotnar because "Jotunn" isn't a raceit is a race insofar as any of the other groups in norse mythology are considered a "race." Jotnar are descended from Ymir and have a similar composition as Ymir, being described as both fiery and icy (Hymir, for instance, in Hymiskvitha has a beard made of ice, and is simultaneously said to a lead an army of lava giants)>and we have no reason to think that Snorri would make up the Aesir-Vanir war. Your entire argument presumes that he made it up and thus we have to find clues in the Poetic Edda.wait, now I'm really not following, why can't we presume that snorri engaged in conjecture when on multiple other occasions he engages in conjecture?He created the light elf/ dark elf dichotomy in gylfaginning that doesn't seem to line up with any known source on the subject. It seem totally within his character to me to make things up based on speculative readings of passages from various poems.
>>16605747well sure, vafthruthnir says as much in vafthruthnismal...>How did Njorthr come to be>among the Aesir?...>Wise Vanir created him>in Vanaheimr, and gave him>as a hostage to the Aesir.>At Ragnarok,>he will go back home>to the Wise Vanir.the issue is who exactly enslaved him and brought to the gods, not whether or not he was ever enslaved in the first place.
>>16602615I was referring to his archetype being created first, which it was.
>>16595645>If you actually read the illiad it mentions god constantly.>This is distinct from all the other gods which are mentioned by nameI've read it and nowhere there is this "god" you're talking about.
>>16602600Yes, nobody is questioning that.My point is that Deus was never a name used for Yahweh until the common era, with roman christians.You can't say Yahweh and Zeus share a same historical root due to the word Deus.
>>16602600>>16606458Also, Deus and Zeus aren't even cognates, despite their similarities and common roots.>Zeus refers to a specific patriarch god, its cognate in latin is Jovis/Jupiter >Deus is a generic name for god or gods. Its true greek cognate is Theos.All 4 words share a same root, but they are divided into two meanings: a name for a patriarch god and the general word for "god".
Christcucks really getting desperate to haul white people back onto the plantation.>Jesus wasn't a Jew, he was a Roman!>YHVH is akshually the same god as Jupiter!>Ancient Jews didn't exist! The real ancient Jews were actually white people! Also Jews are fake jews because they're mixed with whites and have no connection to ancient jews.
>>16606477Jew-YHWH as seen in the Old Testament is clearly some levant oriented entity.It's only after european influence that this spectre started aping the characteristics of european Gods and became less psychotic and thirsty for goy bloodd.
>Yahweh is Zeus/DionysusYes, but Yahweh is the Edomite/Midianite version of the Minoan/Pelasgian (Proto-Greek) Zeus, not the PIE Dyeus Phter. This Zeus, better known as Velchanos, was a solar agrarian bull god who dies and resurrects like the Middle Eastern gods like Dumuzi/Tammuz/Adonis, Baal Hadad and Osiris. In fact, Moses was known as Osarseph (Osar comes from Osiris, who was Dionysus to the Egyptians). One of epithets of Zeus used by Cretan Greeks was "Zeus Velchanos". Cretan Greeks had several traditions about Zeus which were absent from the mainstream hellenic mythology, such as the place of Zeus' birth being an obscure sacred cave on mount Ida, or Zeus symbolically dying every year and then rising from the dead. All this suggests that the Cretan Zeus was an amalgam of IE Zeus and a local Minoan god, whose name might have survived as the epithet "Velchanos" (notice the similarity to "Vulcan"). Also, Velchanos was the name of a spring festival and a month according to a calendar or two found in Gortyn (Crete).The name "Hephaistos" (Mycenaean Apaitijo) contains possibly the same root as the Greek name of a city on Crete, "Phaistos" (Myc. Paito). We know that Phaistos is an originally Minoan word because the Egyptian records mention it in this form at a time when Mycenaeans haven't reached Crete yet.
>>16602589Several Greek testimonies trace Dionysus’ provenance to Canaan. Herodotus specifies (II, 49) that this god was introduced in Greece by Cadmus, the Tyrian founder of Thebai and the personification of the Phoenician colonization in the Aegean. This is confirmed in the seventh Homeric hymn, which reports the capture of Dionysus by pirates who wished to ransom his parents and friends in the Canaanite eastern Mediterranean for his freedom. Dionysus’ Canaanite origin is reinforced by the Dionysian cortege or retinue, constituted of couretes, corybantes, cyclopes, telchines, and dactyls, all of whom are daimones frequently considered in Greece as originating in the eastern Mediterranean.The first Homeric hymn traces Dionysus’ origin to “Nysa, a mountain most high and richly grown with woods, far off in Phoenicia, near the streams of Aegyptus…” In the seventh hymn, he first appears “on a jutting headland by the shore of the fruitless sea.” The only “fruitless” that is to say, fishless, sea between Phoenicia and the Nile is the Dead Sea, and the tall forested mountain to its south is Mount Seir (Edom), the mountain of origin of YHWH. This transforms Dionysus into an Aegean version of YHWH, whose cult was probably propagated and adapted during the ‘Orientalizing revolution’ that followed the settlement in Greece of a population originating of east Mediterranean during the first half of the first millennium BCE.
>>16595587>>16595607Gad is the semitic deity of luck and is tied to the planet jupiter.This is why we refer to both the italic, norse and semitic deity as "God", as it's a composite of Gad, Godan, Yovi and Odins luck (Who's the norse memory of the actual Thoth priesthood, the allfather descendant of Atlantis/Asgard)Europes history used to be quite unified for most periods, with peoples recognizing that the main difference was linguistic and not theologic.
>>16605557I didn't say Romans were the only ones with an ethos. Every people (populus / ethnos) has its own ethos, the thing is many Romans saw in Hellenism a menace against their own ethos, like Greeks saw a menace in Macedonian centralization for their polis' ethos.What I tried to say is, contrary to the popular vision of Greco-Romans being always chill, many Romans were against the "Greco-" part, todays parallel example is the "Judeo-Christian values", many christians hate the "Judeo-" part.
>>16606663Aren't you going a little far by connecting Gad (semitic word) with God (germanic, aka indo-european word)?
>>16606474>Theos = Deus = Zeus = JovisRemember Platonism, Neo-Platonism, Stoicism, etc. Hellenism evolved to a semi-monotheism being Zeus = Monad and the rest of the gods parts of him.
>>16607063>Gad (semitic word)well, heres when etymology comes in handy."Gad" means "allotter" and stems from the same root as the PIE word "Cut".And if you know a bit of mythologic history, you'd also know that Thoth-Osiris had a daughter-partnee by name of Seshat, which is THE god of allottment and measurement.Thoth is also the Waterbird of Osiris, which is THE root of Wotanaz of the Aesir, or, Odin the father/partner of Gridr. Gridr literally means "grinder/allotter" as well, and is from the same root as one finds words like "grid", "grill" or "garden".tldr;Thoth/Seshat is the very same father/apprentice as Odin/Gridr.Both, respectively, being the father birdgod scribe of the Asir with their apprentice specializing in measurement and allottment.
>>16607224the "Hebrew" remember the waterbird priest through their own placenames, as the "Hebron" is the Horus of the River, aka, the Waterbird Ibis/Heron.
>>16607049> Every people (populus / ethnos) has its own ethosyes, and they're all remarkably similar to each other. But keep pretending that they all developed on different planets for thousands of years, with no contact with each other at all, for thousands of years, each developing their "individual ethos that has no similarities to each other beyond the coincidental".>What I tried to say is, contrary to the popular vision of Greco-Romans being always chill, ...yea they didn't get along with each other, just like they didn't get along with themselves either (civil wars, even class conflicts between the patricians and the plebeians). When you worship a war god, it's not surprising at all that you'd fight with other worshipers on a constant basis. But what does that have to do with your original tangential argument that these cultures are "unique and developed in complete cultural isolation from each other, ergo their gods are unique and not near carbon copies of each other"?There are more similarities between these ancient cultures than there are differences, because they all spawned from a single source in the unrecorded past, they all worship a god of war that requires blood sacrifices and delights in bloodshed, a hierarchical political structure.
>>16606663>>16607224>>16607247>t. schizo Sources about people of those times connecting Gad with Odin??
>>16607247Hebrew isn't an ancient word. If anything, the Arameans brought it first.
>>16607049>Romans saw in Hellenism a menace against their ownYou're insane. They never called themselves Greco Romans either . The relationship between Greeks and Romans is like America and Britain.
>>16607809The "vikings" stem from someone who brought egyptian shipbuilding to the north when they fled the (out come of?) battle of Actium which egypt lost.The Sea is named after the city of Sais, and the norse god of the sea is Njordr, going on FROM around The early 1st century, just as with all scriptural sources of the version of Odin known in the sagas.the city of Sais is THE shrine of the seagod Neith/Nerthus.I don't give a damn if you don't see the piling mirror mythologies along with perfect window and cause of the northern introduction.Read up on both mythologies or go back to your videogaymes.
>>16607979Schizo shit
>>16607836>You're insane.Read about what Quintus Fabius Maximus and his disciple Cato the Elder thought about Hellenism.
>>16595836>>16606539What about Jupiter being Zadkiel?
>>16609253I only see a connection in the fact that he is the ruler of Chesed (Sephirah of Jupiter).
>>16595611kind reminder to shut the fuck up
>>16607072This is incorrect and did not occur.>>16606474They're cognates in that they both derive from *dyew-. However, you are correct that Ζεύς derives from *dyews and that DEVS derives from *deywos.
>>16605807>it is a race insofar as any of the other groups in norse mythology are considered a "race."If we can say that it's a kenning for a class of people that aren't actually genealogically related then it could just as well be referring to the "race of witches" thing mentioned elsewhere.>Jotnar are descended from Ymir and have a similar composition as Ymir,As are the Aesir. Clearly, the Jotnar aren't inherently evil, as the Aesir take in Gerdr and Skadi despite them being "racially" Jotunn.>why can't we presume We have no reason to do so. Just reading the two texts presents evidence that supports there having been an Aesir-Vanir war. You have to enter the texts with the idea of that not being the case and looking for evidence to support this before you've even read the text. >He created the light elf/ dark elf dichotom"Dokkalfar" is mentioned in Hrafnagaldr Óðins, which is only not considered of Medieval vintage because it screws up Bugge's theories of all gentile religion just being discount Judaism. Even if he was the one to coin the terms it doesn't change that the Alfar are associated with the dark and swarthiness and the Alfar are associated with the light and brightness, meaning that he's just coining terms.
>the supreme god of the canaanite pantheon is YHWH>pronounced "Yah-way">the supreme god of the roman pantheon is Jove>pronounced "Yah-way">atheoids and nordicists insist this is purely coincidence
>>16609896Yup, this one is going to have all the boards fuming for years to come. Can't wait to see the copes.
>>16609912Imagine if Hercules and Sigmund were inexplicably both pronounced "Arthur". The odds of that happening by accident are fucking zero.
>>16609918I mean you're right. The odds can't be that high, especially between different language groups. Yeah, I'd say around 0%.
>>16609924This could be a coincidence if it were a completely random pair of objects. If, say, "Yahweh" appeared in Latin as a name for a kind of eating utensil, then you'd probably just assume it's happenstance. If "Jove" appeared in Hebrew as the name of a medicinal plant, it wouldn't really raise any eyebrows. But the name of the Sky-Father creator gods both being pronounced the same? Impossible.
>>16609896Firstly, Jupiter's name only pronounced "IOVE" in the ablative singular. Secondly, "Yahweh" is a modern English reconstruction to create a singular word to refer to the entity in question, Afro-Asiatic words simply don't work in the way that you're suggesting (his name was "YHWH").
>>16609937>But the name of the Sky-Father creator godsBut Yahweh isn't a Skyfather, he's not of Indo-European origin and has none of the traits of one, and he's not only not the creator deity of Judaism but he doesn't even create the cosmos in the IE fashion.
>>16609943>Yahweh is not a creator god in Judaism10,000 IQ post
>>16609967I don't care about what the Zohar or the Talmud says, I'm talking about the Torah. I obviously have to be as you're trying to assert that the ancient Romans practiced discount Judaism, which would by necessity predate whatever Chasidic garbage you think characterizes Judaism. Yahweh is not the creator deity in it, he doesn't create the cosmos.
>>16609993>I'm talking about the Torah>Genesis 1:1 - In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth
>>16606539>>16606544In c.1630, Gerardus Vossius, in his On the Origin and Progress of Idolatry, is historically well-cited as having been the first to make some kind of Moses and Bacchus parallelism connection (Ѻ); English translations of his works, however, are wanting.In c.1650, Samuel Bochart (1559-1667) asserted the following: (Ѻ)“Both Bacchus and Moses were born in Egypt, shut up in an "ark," and put on the waters. Both fled from Egypt toward the Red Sea and had serpents (in Moses' case, a bronze serpent). For both, water flowed from a rock and milk and honey were provided. Both were called legislators, turned sticks into snakes, saw light in the darkness, and had unknown tombs.”In 1679, Pierre Huet, supposedly, had produced the following equation: (Ѻ)Mnevis (Ѻ) = Osiris = Bacchus = Moses
>>16610827In c.1750, American theologian Jonathan Edwards (1703-1753), in his Notes on the Bible, equated Bacchus and Moses, in an apologetic way, to the effect that he believed that the Bacchus legends were ‘based on’ the stories Moses; the key section is as follows: (Ѻ)“[408] Exod. ii. Moses is the same with the Egyptian Osiris; for:1. Moses is the same with Bacchus, as has been shown before, No. 401; and Diodorus tells us that Osiris was called by the Greeks Dionysus, the name of Bacchus.2. Diodorus tells us that Hercules [Horus] was the chief captain of Osiris' army, who was Joshua, as has been shown, No. 402.3. Diodorus tells us that Osiris had in his army Anubis covered over with a dog's skin, which thence was pictured with a dog's head, and called the dog keeper, &c.; all which seems to refer to Caleb's name, which signifies a dog.4. Pan is said to war under Osiris, which is the same with Christ, whom god promises should go with Moses when he says Hebrew 1 or "my presence shall go with him." See No. 404."5. Osiris is said to have horns from the mistake of Moses's character, who is thence pictured with horns, because of his beams of light—the word in Hebrew for horns and beams being the same.6. Moses with the princes of the tribes carried up the bones of Joseph into Canaan: hence the poets fable of Osiris' bones, &c. See Gale's Court of Gen. p. 1, b. 2, c. 7, p. 94, 95.”
>>16610830In c.1769, Voltaire, in his Philosophical Dictionary (Ѻ), citing Vossius (c.1630) and Pierre Huet (1679), stated that Moses is a rewrite of the Bacchus; the opening section of which is as follows: [5]“Of all the true or fabulous personages of profane antiquity, Bacchus is to us the most important. I do not mean for the fine invention which is attributed to him by all the world except the Jews, but for the prodigious resemblance of his fabulous history to the true adventures of Moses.The ancient poets have placed the birth of Bacchus in Egypt; he is exposed on the Nile, and it is from that event that he is named "Mises" by the first Orpheus [c.680BC], which, in Egyptian, signifies "saved from the waters", according to those who pretend to understand the ancient Egyptian tongue, which is no longer known. He is brought up near a mountain of Arabia, called Nisa, which is believed to be Mount Sinai. It is pretended that a goddess ordered him to go and destroy a barbarous nation, and that he passed through the Red Sea on foot, with a multitude of men, women, and children. Another time, the river Orontes suspended its waters right and left to let him pass, and the Hydaspes did the same. He commanded the sun to stand still [compare: Joshua 10:13]; two luminous rays proceeded from his head. He made a fountain of wine spout up by striking the ground with his thyrsis, and engraved his laws on two tables of marble. He wanted only to have afflicted Egypt with ten plagues, to be the perfect copy of Moses.Vossius is, I think, the-first who has extended this parallel. The Bishop of Avranches, Huet, has pushed it quite as far; but he adds, in his Evangelical Demonstrations, that not only Moses is Bacchus, but that he is also Osiris and Typhon [Set]. He does not halt in this fine path. Moses, according to him, is Esculapius, Amphion, Apollo, Adonis, and even Priapus.”
>>16610833Voltaire, to note digresses for several pages beyond this. Here, however, we do note that connecting Moses with Bacchus and both back to Osiris is a cogent synopsis for 1630 (Vossius) as well as for 1769 (Voltaire).In 1802, William Hort, in his The New Pantheon: an Introduction to the Mythology of the Ancients (Ѻ), describes Bacchus as follows:“What appears to be the true history of Bacchus? The best historians, Herodotus, Plutarch, and Diodorus Siculus, assert that he was born in Egypt, and educated at Nysa, a city in Arabia Felix, whither he had been sent by his father, Jupiter Ammon. From them it appears, that the Bacchus of the Greeks was no other than the famous Osiris, conqueror of India. This Bacchus is supposed, by many learned men, to be Moses. Both are represented as born in Egypt, and exposed in their infancy upon the Nile. Bacchus was educated at Nissa or Nysa, in Arabia, and in the same country passed forty years. Bacchus, when persecuted, retired to the borders of the Red Sea; and Moses fled with the Israelites, from the Egyptian bondage, beyond the same sea. The numerous army of Bacchus, composed of men and women, passed through Arabia in their journey to India. The army of the Jewish legislator, composed of men, women, and children, was obliged to wander in the desert, long before they arrived in Palestine, which, as well as India, is part of the continent of Asia. The fable represents Bacchus with horns, which may be supposed to allude to the light that is said to have shone around the countenance of Moses, who, in old engravings, is frequently represented with horns. Moses received the Jewish law on Mount Sinai. Bacchus was brought up on Mount Nysa. Bacchus, armed with his thyrsus, defeated the giants.
>>16610837The miraculous rod of Moses was the means of destroying the descendants of the giants. Jupiter was said to have sent Bacchus into India to exterminate a sinful nation; and it is recorded, that Moses was commanded, by the true god, to do the same in Palestine. The god Pan gave Bacchus a dog to accompany him in his travels; Caleb, which, in Hebrew, signifies a dog, was the name of the faithful companion of Moses. Bacchus, by striking the earth with his thyrsus, produced rivers of wine. Moses, by striking the rock with his miraculous rod, caused water to gush out to satisfy the raging thirst of the Israelites.”In 1803, Charles Lebrun, in his Doubts of the Infidels, argued the following:“The history of Moses is copied from the history of Bacchus, who was called Mises by the Egyptians, instead of Moses. Bacchus was born in Egypt; so was Moses... Bacchus passed through the Red Sea on dry ground; so did Moses. Bacchus was a lawgiver; so was Moses. Bacchus was picked up in a box that floated on the water; so was Moses.... Bacchus by striking a rock made wine gush forth... Bacchus was worshipped...in Egypt, Phenicia, Syria, Arabia, Asia and Greece, before Abraham‘s day.”In 1817, Edward Stillingfleet, in his Sacred Origins: Rational Account of the Grounds of Natural and Revealed Religion, summarizes the main 15 points of overlap between Bacchus and Moses as follows: [1]
>>16609611>Gerdr and Skadi despite them being "racially" Jotunn.Gerdr was Galatian/manx celtic and Skadi was scythian celtic.The aesir are the cattleherders of the old r1b-V88 branch that ruled/founded many of the early civilizations, and the Vanir are the Q horsemen.tldr; the "gods" comprise the most powerful domestication factions, whereas the jotuns are the strongest warriors.Jotuns are celts.
>>16612011>Drops of poison>fell from Elivagar>they gelled, and formed the giant (Ymir).>All the families of us giants>have our origin there;>that's why we're bad, through and through.I don't think this is the path you really want to go down, euhemerist faggot.
>>16606544>>16610827>>16610830>>16610833>>16610837>>16610840Bro, what all those names didn't understand is that mythological and folkloric myths spread everywhere, and are no accurate mean to identify "which story is a copy" of another.
>>16612067the "celts" (celto-germanics) stem from the caves at the icefront, where pathogens thawed out all the time.This is why they grew bigger, and were dangerous for other populations to mix with, because their immune systems had many dormant ice territory diseases, as well as cow-domestication diseases from living inside with them during winter.seethe more, fantasizing manchild.the "gods" are that which we manifest, yes, but to forget the men that manifested them in the first place is the act of an inbred idiot.you don't comprehend the concept of abstraction and integration, fine.keep on being a bluepilled baby.
conspiracy theory schizophrenia is so fucking boring at this pointyou can't go to a single thread on this website without some faggot telling you that aliens are demons from hell, and we need to lend jesus our energy so he can charge up his spirit cannon to beat them
>>16612241just take comfort in that your headcanon would be considered schizophrenic to most people in 300 years as well.learn to control your ego. most people are retarded compared to any leading scholar of their time, but nearly nobody stands the passing of scrutiny through time.
>>16612067>>Drops of poison>>fell from Elivagar>>they gelled, and formed the giant (Ymir).You speak as if you know the terms you dangle before me.
>>16612261>your "headcanon," meaning the least inferential interpretation of the poetic edda, would be considered just as schizophrenic by a reasonable observer as my baseless conspiracy theory that is at least partially based on a completely ahistorical misnomer!yeah, no, that's wrong.
>>16612275>ahistorical>>16612275>interpretation of the poetic eddasince you seem to have a specific post in this thread in mind, why don't you point out the difference between your holy non-inferential stance and the blasphemous ahistoricity of the post in question.Stand up to your own words instead of whining on the sideline, dick.
>>16612310>why don't you point out the difference between your holy non-inferential stance and the blasphemous ahistoricity of the post in question.my stance is pretty obvious, I think, if you have more than a double digit IQmy stance: the events of the poetic edda occurred roughly as writtenmy understanding of your stance: the poetic edda is a fiction based on cultural memories of humans interacting in the past.You refer to the jotnar (jotunn is singular, and the plural form is jotnar, not "jotuns," btw) as being celts. You at least partially make reference to their size as supporting this conclusion, failing to realize that jotunn doesn't mean giant. It's etymologically connected to the word "eat," making jotunn something along the lines of "eater." That jotunn is often translated as giant is due to a historical mixup based on the usage of loanwords in english. Jotnar in norse mythology, outside of a couple of individuals, are no bigger or smaller than the gods.
>>16612340>my stance: the events of the poetic edda occurred roughly as writtenNTA but ???
>>16612351I'm an asatruar, so I believe that my religion is real, yes. Crazy, I know.
>>16610046>Caligo created Caelus and GaiaIf Genesis had been written by a Hellenist.
>>16612371How do cope about the indo-european precedence of the nordic folkloric motifs such as Thor vs World Serpent?
>>16612340>my stance is pretty obvious, I think, if you have more than a double digit IQi'll start with pointing out that this is a blue board without ID's. contemplate that.and my pointing out that they were big (yes, that post was me, but how would you know? retard) tied in with their warrior culture.>>16612210>grew biggeryou're clearly a neurotic idiot who infer things left and right from your small pool of short-span memory buzzwords.You should make a habit of reading things twice, with a 5 minute window in order to let that ADHD brain of yours come up with alternative interpretations and readings.also, every single post here aside from your own could be a new person.take a break.
>>16609285Both are also paladins of Dea Iustitia (Goddess Justice) and protectors of oaths.
>>16612400corrupted emanations of an original story (the underlying events that later went on to be the basis for voluspa)>>16612401>le how do you it was le moi??? >:)/his/ is an extremely low traffic board. Back before they removed the IP count, threads like these would usually have about like 20 unique IPs.Add onto that that the whole "norse mythology is actually all just le metaphors" vargshit is a fringe belief, even amongst us pagans, who are already fringe.There's just not enough people here, and not enough people with your dumb beliefs for you to do the whole misdirection bit.
>>16612428>metaphorsthat assumption goes out the window when you dont even know the native meaning of the words yourself.even worse when you call people out without pointing out your specific disagreements, or even which post it was.if you want dialogue I'm here, but you seem more interested at throwing out ad hominem and empty shots rather than tackling topics head on.>>16612428>us pagansoh wait, HAHAHA, you're actually personally offended from stumbling across something slightly questioning your world view??I'm sure it won't help the continuing of our conversation to mention that I'm the most native norwegian you could have possibly dreamt up.my family tree is your worldview.cope.the door for conversation is still open if you want to go into specific concrete things.
>>16612484of course, here's the classic>I'm white, so it's ok for me to engage in blasphemythe god's aren't yours, faggot, you're theirs.My entire family is danish. I don't use that as a license to revise history.>even worse when you call people out without pointing out your specific disagreements, or even which post it was.My specific disagreement is that I believe that the poetic edda is true as written, you don't. How many more times do you need me to explain this?>the door for conversation is still open if you want to go into specific concrete things.I'm afraid if I did that, it would only be a matter of time before you started posting haplogroup charts, and I have less than 0 interest in that.So chalk this up as a win for yourself (a win in what? Who even knows.) and lets call it a day.
>>16612541>true as written, you don'tagain, point out where, to the actual post and sentence you think was me, and then try to explain why your stance is different than mine.not that hard, if you really have the disagrement you claim yo have.
