*Outmaneuvers your plane*
most aircraft shot down have no idea they are in a fight.
>>61430169> *tanks all of your machinegun fire and flies away*
>>61430169Vaffanculo.
>>61430169*explodes because I gave it an angry glare*
>>61430169Thread themehttps://youtu.be/JoC3EU_H2tc?si=EDCuuTOlxYRynOOo
>outmaneuvers, outclimbs and outruns your planehow is the A6M more popular than this thing?
>>6143017522 nips on the side of my plane22 nips on the sideshoot one down, pass him around 23 nips on the side of my plane.
>>61430169Not in that riced-up T-6 you ain't.
>>61430169>Proceeds to get attrit'ed so hard you run through your entire veteran and elite pilots because it goes up like a Christmas tree from stray gunfire because of its paper thin armor and fragile fuel tanks
>>61430220Delete this post. It is very offensive.
-ACK
>>61430212too late, too little.
>>61430212Zero is a simple and easy to remember name, also with its range "it was everywhere", it could be here too ,woosh.Homare was an almost complete failure that doomed many airframes, it never performed as planned and the engine life seems to be mediocre because it's a tiny engine with continuous WEP.
>>61430320When they passed him around everyone used his asshole like it was a cheap imported Japanese cock sleeve
>This terrifies the Zero
>>61430169*dives*
>>61430169didn't out maneuver those tow nukes did it????
>>61430333>engine life seems to be mediocre>seems to benice sources>with continuous WEPCry about it 5 minute WEPlet.But yes Homare was a mess thanks to wise Nakajima still relying on old type carburetor. They finally started production of a new model with carburetor similar to US radials, but that was in spring or summer 1945.With the earlier 1800hp Homares Ki-84 and N1K1-J were just underpowered.
>*Outmaneuvers your plane*
>>61430668Animu was a mistake
>>61430212Because it existed for longer then 20 mins
>>61430169
*Looks cool*Really, that is all I have, though some of these caused a flight of P-38s to shit themselves.
>>61430169Feel free to cope to your heart's content.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yc94Tj7SP8o
>>61430169Yes, I'm sure that T-6 Texan that was painted up to look like a Zero for a movie probably could.
>>61430913are modern propeller planes more agile though or are they just faster.
>>61430883Forgor pic.
People love to shit on Zero forget that when it was first introduced, it's the best carrier plane in the world.But for me? I prefer inline-engine fighters. Never like radial.
>>61430957
>>61430169*Fucks your face*
>*hypnotizing you*
>>61430169> gets shot with a BB gun> bursts into flames
>>61430957They don't forget, they just don't care. They just want their school yard game of grabass and shit talking. Actually knowing shit, forming a coherent opinion, stating it... that's like school stuff.
>>61431171>ooooooo you like dogfighting boys, don't you?
>>61431986Fag
>heh. nothin personal, tojo
>>61430169It was good at the start of the war, but it and the Oscar didn't really receive upgrades like western allied or German planes did. By 1944 it was getting easily dabbed on by spitfire Vs, VIIs, Hellcats and corsairs.
>>61430169Outmaneuver this, ricefag
>>61430169>>61432032Wait, i just remembered Pearl Harbor. Actually it is personal
>>61432044The Oscar was extensively upgraded and re-engined (later Ki-43s, production and later prototypes Ki-44). Only the IJN was retarded.
>>61430957What is the purpose of the wire connected to the tail?
>>61430495My favorite thing about the Corsair is that the USN decided it wasn't raping japs hard enough, so funded an improved version with the R4360 24 cylinder engine along with tweaks to perform better at low altitude. It was better, but the Bearcat was just as good and still used the R2800.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBUKiKvl29QAlso, the last ever combat between piston engine airplanes was a Honduran Corsair downing a Mustang and two opposing Corsairs, so that's neat.
>>61432237VHF Radio antenna
>>61432237Antenna for the radio. You'll see similar setups on lots of ww2 planes.
>>61432237Antenna for the IJN's Type 96 Ku Radio (Medium wave and short wave).
>>61430175>>61430220Nowadays it'd be a roping yellow wojak.
>>61430169>those wingsthis is an imposter
>>61430495>got royally BTFO in its first run against Zeros in Guadalcanal>was bad enough that it got grounded and the allies ceased daylight aerial operations for weeks this piece of shit was only good for CAS. against real competition and real pilots it was cannon fodder.
>>61430324>requires a two on one advantage to work
>>61432405Ok Tojo, go home.
>>61430169>Outruns your plane>19:1 K/D
>>61430169YWNBARZ
>>61433213>he's retarded enough to take wartime claims, especially WW2 ones, at face value
>>61433657Prove the number wrong faggot
>>61430169Actually quite excellent at the start of the war, the maneuverability was a meme, but the climb, fast cruise speed, and long range made it great.
>>61430169>*kills your admiralmagic
>>61430840Leave the poor weeb Texan alone, it's trying its best.
>>61430933>modern propeller planes>fasterThere are a couple of turboprops that are faster, but by and large, warbirds are faster than modern prop planes.
>"Get your butt up here, Mav. I've got 3 Jap Zeroes on my tail!!
>>61430212Man, late war Japanese fighters like the Frank were so pretty. Although. The bubble canopy on late war fighters and basically ALL of the last piston engine fighters are peak aesthetic.
>>61430212By the time these were in service in numbers, Japan’s best flyers had been bbqd
>>61433213I don't give a shit if it's a normie opinion, the Mustang was objectively the best fighter of the war. Could it ground attack as well as a jug? No. Could it maneuver like a spit? No. But it was designed in a fraction of the time and could do literally any role competently and do it thousands of miles away, was still better than the majority of planes it would face, this while being a 1/3rd of the unit price of the jug. It was designed to enable the strategic bombing campaign, which it did, and then went further by actually wrestling air superiority over Germany from the Luftwaffe by combat air patrol. I've noticed this hipster tendency to say the jug was better or did more for the war effort but that's horseshit.
>>61430970Damn that's a pretty plane
Over 7000 americans died in kamikaze attacks
>>61437677Wow is that footage real?
>>61437613> the Mustang was objectively the best fighter of the war. No. It was perhaps the most useful fighter of the war, but objectively it was pretty mid.
>>61432405>piece of shit>11:1 kill ratio>lowest attrition rate of any fighter plane in the Pacific>only good for CAS>2,140 air combat victories against 189 lossesK bud
>>61438050>>11:1 kill ratioJarvis, divide this number by 3 then filter out the aerial fodder after mid-1943>effective ratio is actually between 1 and 1.5:1
>>61438074>nooooooo it doesn't countIt counts.
>>61438523> The pilots lied about their numbers!!!That’s true though. Pilots always lie. Either intentionally in order to get the glory, or unintentionally because they thought they killed something that actually limped back to base.Certainly not by a factor of ten though.
>While on a lengthy mission from the Halmahera base in the Moluccas to northern Mindoro (south of Bataan), West spotted a Nakajima Oscar above and behind him, closing slowly. Fuel was getting tight but West and his wingman went for him. West did the unthinkable; he slowed way down in the climb, dropped full landing flaps and turned into the Oscar while climbing steeply. Having ultimate confidence in his P-38L, at something less than 100 mph, he went to full power to hang the Lightning on its props as the surprised Oscar pilot broke to the right and upward.As West phrased it, "I left the flaps down, and stuck the nose at a spot I though he might be at pretty soon ... Sure enough, he rolled it out at the top of an Immelmann. Neither of us is doing 65 mph, and that old L hung on the props and didn't even shudder." West blazed away with all guns, and the frail Oscar began to shed skin like a molting snake.
>>61430169*outmaneuvers your plane*
>>61438523>The pilots lied about their numbersyes, even the leadership at the time knew this and accounted for it by halving or thirding claimed numbers. this didn't just apply to pilots, it applies to all claims. next question?
>>61438664How do you account for the missing 5000 Zeros that never showed up on airfields or in scrap yards that seemingly "disappeared into the ocean"
>>61438677do you derive pleasure from behaving like a retarded faggot?
>>61430212>shit pilots>planes made like dog shit and never came close to meeting performance numbers>made no meaningful impactIt's a wonder why.
>>61438682>The pilots say they shot down 6000 zeros>The naval gunner say they shot down 1000 zeroes>The bombers say they shot down 5000 zeroes>We cut these numbers in half to 6000 shot down>We expect to find 4000 production line zeroes in Japan according to Japanese production numbers of 10,000 numbers>Uhm actually theres like 250 spread across fields and maintenance yards throughout JapanCrazy how that works
>>61437953Are you the same type of autistic that says the tiger was a better tank than the Sherman because you think that wars are won by 1v1 deathmatches instead of mass production?
>>61437953>was perhaps the most useful fighter of the warYes, therefore the best fighter of the war.
>>61438827not whoever that is but yeah the Tiger is objectively a superior tank and the one I'd rather be in than the mutt tommy cooker.>mass productionlargely ambiguous and subjective metric that has as much to do with industrial wealth, geographical location, production methods etc, perhaps even more than the product itself.
>>61438809if that's how it works in your head, then so be it. usually it's the other way around, though>Japanese record shows 10 planes were scrambled and 8 returned>Allied pilots claimed 50 kills
>>61438883So where are the 8000 zeroes that returned?Destruction and Production numbers add up in they official records
>>61438835By that metric it were P-40s and Wildcats that stopped the japs and let you babble in English now.
>>61432413It works as long as you have two planes and the enemy follows you like an overaggressive retard. Could have 5 of them chasing you.>>61432413
>>61430169that's a t-6, dummy
>>61438868Midwit take. The Sherman was optimized and standardized for mass production in automobile factories by design, and able to be shipped anywhere in the world easily and function reliability. The Tiger was not. It did not achieve overall power parity with the Sherman not only because Germany didn't have the resources but because it was a wholly inferior design in terms of reliability, ease of maintenance, complexity, and cost. It would have been unsuitable even with America's resources. Same principle applies for the Mustang. Many planes could do individual roles better, but no plane could do as many roles as well as it did, or match its performance in the escort role. This for a cheap, mass-producable design conceived in 150 days during wartime.>the one I'd rather be in than the mutt tommy cooker.No, it's the one you'd rather be in in a 1v1 in war thunder. Stop coping. You wouldn't want to be inside any tank on the losing side of a war outnumbered 10 to 1 by Shermans. Autistic, overly complicated maintenance hogs lose wars. Proven designs that are cheap and easy to produce win them. Overall strategic impact is the ultimate test of which weapon is the "best". Simple as.
>>61438905this but unironically. The pre-war aircraft designs like the P-39, P-40, F4F and P47 etc played a major role through 1942 and in the P47's case through to the end of the war.
>>61438905>it were P-40s and Wildcats that stopped the japsYes, two vastly underrated planes that have been vindicated by their combat records in WW2. But the Mustang was both in the upper tier of individual performance in aerial combat, AND had a larger strategic impact because it was cheap and easy to produce. And no other fighter could deliver its level of performance in the long range escort role. A jug with drop tanks or a P-38 isn't going to cut it against the Luftwaffe over their home turf. The Mustang did, and contributed to allied air superiority over Europe more than any other individual design.
>>61440616>Yes, two vastly underrated planes that have been vindicated by their combat records in WW2they both got brutally mogged. the wildcat was underperforming really hard until Guadalcanal where it was aided by EW and coast watchers allowing squadrons to take off and prep with altitude advantage against Rabaul-based attackers. Having early warning was basically the only combat condition in which Wildcats could achieve parity, let alone air superiority.
>>61440659Pick nits you are. You must be yellow.
>>61437768That's GTA Chinatown wars dumbass
>>61440616> A jug with drop tanks or a P-38 isn't going to cut it against the Luftwaffe over their home turf.For the record, the first allied fighters over Berlin were P-38s of the 55FG on 3 March,1944. They were doing it before it was cool and when it was difficult.
>>61443222>the first allied fighters over Berlin werenight fighter Mosquitos supporting RAF raids
>>61443592Well, they weren't exactly being used as fighter escorts forcing their way through.
>>61443222>the first allied fighters over Berlin were P-38s of the 55FG on 3 March,1944allied bombers were doing runs on Berlin since 1940, Timmy.
>>61430169Even the Spitfire was destroying the Zero.
>>61444411Okay.Bombers are not fighters
>>61444424Not when it mattered.
>>61443647the RAF didn't exactly have to do large scale fighter sweeps since they weren't bombing in daytimeWW2 nightfighting was a lot like modern aerial combat, or at least 80s aerial combat; pinging for targets on radar, finding a blip, guessing if it was friend or foe, chasing it down, identifying it with eyeball and killing it
>>61438905yes
>>61432413Shouldn't be a problem unless you fight a country with so much heavy industry they can spare shipyards to make ice cream ships.
>>61430169whittu piggu go home
>>61430957>inlinethat's inverted V you stupid fuck
>>61437677What is this even from? Seems to have a production value. In the actual war, the Marines loved it when the nips charged. Made them easy targets. The swords were good souvenirs for the family back home with the whole 'ashtray out of a Jap's skull' thing got no-no'd. That and claiming those little nip flags. Actually, part of reconciliation has seen a number of these flags returned to kin/the villages where the dead squint came from. Pretty interesting.
>>61438891>Destruction and Production numbers add up in they official records>official recordsWhy don't we bring up those Japanese claims where they "probably" shot down five times B-29s as they really did? In any military document they count as "official records". At the end 99% of B-29s were scrapped anyway, so they might have been close.By modern day standards even Americans had horrible loss rate to accidents and mechanical failures. In comparison Japanese with many times less flight hours, always lacking spare parts and overburneded groundcrews were simply a lost case.
>>61430169An AI test pilot has successfully flown a jet fighter in dogfights against human opponents. It's the latest development for DARPA's Air Combat Evaluation program, which is trying to develop aerospace AI agents that can be trusted to perform safely.Human test pilots have a bit of a reputation thanks to popular culture—from The Right Stuff to Top Gun: Maverick, the profession has been portrayed as a place for loose cannons with a desire to go fast and break the rules. The reality is pretty far from that these days, especially where DARPA is concerned.The agency instead wants a machine-learning agent that can safely fly a real aircraft autonomously, with no violations of training rules. After all, neural networks have their own reputation—at this point well-earned—for finding ways to exploit situations that hadn't occurred to humans. And the consequences when controlling a real jet fighter can be a lot more severe than just testing in silico.In this case, the jet fighter is called the X-62A Variable Stability In-Flight Simulator Test Aircraft, or VISTA. It began life as an F-16D (Block 30) two-seater, which spent most of its 32-year career working at the US Air Force Test Pilot School at Edwards AFB.Over the years, the plane, previously designated the NF-16D, has been modified to simulate the flight characteristics of other aircraft while in flight. "It has given almost a thousand students and staff members the opportunity to practice testing aircraft with dangerously poor flying qualities and to execute risk-reduction flight test programs for advanced technologies," said William Gray, chief test pilot of VISTA and the USAF Test Pilot School.That made it a natural candidate for DARPA's ACE program, and in 2021, the process of modifying the aircraft began once again as it became the X-62A.
>>61452027The USAF and DARPA started conducting X-62A test flights under AI control in December 2022, logging 17 hours by the time we first learned of the program in early 2023. Although DARPA's AI agent flew the X-62A, there was always a pair of human pilots onboard to monitor the test flight and, if necessary, take control. But in those early tests, the X-62A flew against simulated adversaries.By September 2023, the program had completed 21 test flights, including the first-ever AI versus human aerial engagement within visual range, flying against a human-piloted F-16. During that time, DARPA says the team made over 100,000 lines of flight-critical software changes, which it called "an unprecedented rate of development."That's certainly an achievement, but just focusing on the dogfight is a mistake, according to Gray. "That misses the point. Dogfighting was the problem to solve so we could start testing autonomous artificial intelligence systems in the air, but every lesson we're learning applies to every task we can give to an autonomous system," he said.https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/04/darpas-ai-test-pilot-successfully-flew-a-dogfight-against-a-human/
>>61449730It doesn't matter if you put the inline upside or down, retard, it's an inline.
>>61449906Battlefield V.
>>61452031>Doesnt lay out the dog fight scenario Into the trash it goes
Which is better, Zero or Hayabusa?
>>61430220We know the Vietnam kill counts are complete bs, imagine how much bullshitting there was in WW2 in hopes of getting a medal.
>>61430169>outmaneuversEnglish isn't a real language.
>>61452490>He moved>He moved further>Huh?
>>61433657Oy vey that’s anti-Semitic
>>61433673>Prove a negativeI bet you think carrots make your eyesight better, propagandized faggot
>>61452091They had to have a witness, in some cases it was multiple witnesses.
>>61452083Zero, obviously. Ki-43 was deeply flawed and a double-edged sword for pilots who didn't know how to tame it. It also had a vastly inferior powerplant and armament. Still was good for what it did but the A6M was an engineering masterpiece so there's no comparison.
>>61452072like i said, it's a v engine, not inlinedumb fuck doesn't know when to stop
>>61452984In aviation terms, 'inline' means straights and V's you fucking mongoloid.
>>61430169>Gets transported to be a dog to a pink-haired tsundere Yeah, okay.
>>61430731
>>61430169>Out-climbs, out-dives, and out-speeds your plane
I really wish the Bearcat had made it into WWII combat. Would be interesting to see how it performed against the Japanese planes.
>>61454110>Would be interesting to see how it performed against the Japanese planes.>Zeroes blown out by Hellcat>Bearcat on paper is faster, climbs better, and nimbler than the Hellcat while also packing a full cannon armament>Wikipedia claims that pilots compared the Bearcat's performance to early jet fightersThat would be interesting food for thought, especially if the imperial japanese forces managed to scrape together a few Kikkas.
>>61437613Jugs blunted the Luftwaffe before the Mustang showed up.P47s were also superior at altitude, fudd.
>>61440595>F4FFM Wildcat stayed on CVEs until the end.
>>61440659You need to read the First Team books by Lundstrom.You probably won't because you enjoy wallowing in stupidity.
>>61440616P47 did long range just fine when drop tanks arrived. Greg has an entire YT on the subject.
>>61443592>>61444411Bombers aren't fighters.
>>61454037Was this supposed to prove him wrong?
>>61452519By providing better numbers, dumbass.
>>61430173>Describes my dates insteadPlease stay on topic.
For me?Its the ki-61
such a pretty plane, the zero has always been one of my favorite aircraft
>>61455554Id add Guadalcanal by R.B. Frank and Toll's trilogy to that reading list
>>61455572>night fighter Mosquitos
>>61455554>You need to read propaganda from the 70's that relied exclusively on allied sources and took primary accounts at face valueI actually already did. Here's my breakdown of the wildcat's perf against the Zero up to Guadalcanal. Omitted here is one encounter between Zuiho CAP Zeroes and a surface attack group escorted by Wildcats in which two wildcats were shot down and two Zeroes were shot down while attacking a formation of torpedo bombers.
>>61455802NAYRT but I believe the Midway AAR's focus on out-manoeuvring the Zero is attributable to the relative inexperience of US carrier pilots then.What Buckmaster reported are slashing hit and run attacks which late-WW2 review considered to be the most effective method of "dogfighting", ie, not actually dogfighting. Speed and climb rate is what should have been emphasised, not turn rate.
>>61430220The Mustang is such a pretty plane.
>>61455564Greg Boyington was the best fighter ace! I watched Black Sheep Squadron. They always won.
>>61455802>the rest ditched due to the sinking of the EnterpriseThat's not right. The Hornet sank in that battle, not Big E.
>>61430169Looks perfect for shooting lawnmower drones
>>61437677>quick, rush that jap! he can't kill all of us!
>>61457053I really don't understand how an anon could be so proud of his analysis and cap it with that kind of a mistake.
>>61455494A jug would get eaten alive by a mustang in a dogfight, while costing three times as much to build. It was inferior in maneuverability and kinematic performance and was a worse air superiority fighter by every metric. It was superior at CAS and would have been a better plane for Korea. That's about it.
>>61437677>GRORIUS NIPPON STEEL DIE AMERUCAN PIGGUU
>>61463592Nonetheless the Mustang was late to the party, and the P47 and Spitfire was what really killed off the elite Luftwaffe pilots. Mustangs ate the remains.
>>61430169>>61430840Is that what this is? I knew it wasn't a real Zeke, the wings looked off.
>>61463592Facts mean little to you.
>>61432316Love this video. Love me Corsair. Simple as.
>>61455658Yes.
>>614558021984 is the '70s.And USS Enterprise sank.
>>61455564Right up until the Germans figured out they could bounce them in France, forcing the fighters to ditch their gas and fight, and then return to England because they couldn't make the round trip without the tanks.
>>61463397Clearly a plane autist and not a ship autist.
>>61452519But they do
>>61455802No (great) offense but there's a few things I'd object to in that assessment. The theme of highlighting any factor which could mitigate Zero performance while ignoring similar factors for the Wildcats also seems disingenuous.
>>61455918>NAYRT but I believe the Midway AAR's focus on out-manoeuvring the Zero is attributable to the relative inexperience of US carrier pilots then.In Midway, task force 17 was involved. This was the most experienced carrier group in the US Navy at the time, and many of the pilots participated in the Coral sea and the raids before those.>>61457053>>61463688typing mistake.
>>61430169>survives a 1 vs 3 dogfight against zeros because it can make higher-G turns for a tighter loop and structually take damage on repeated head-on passes>>61446310>takes out the third zero with a wingtip collision
>>61463648That's a big plane.
>>61432405You'd have a point if the Corsair's operational history began and ended in the course of a month, you retarded zipperhead.
>>61465640F4U
>>61463726Same applied to the P-51s.
>>61430212It was still slower than corsair and Bearcat.
>>61463619It's a T-6 Texan painted like a japanese plane for airshows/movies.
>>61438578Imagine experiencing aileron inversion below VNE, or requiring more force/g on the stick than a mustang at any real speed.
*is better than anything's in your path*
>>61463941You might have missed the point.
>>61465459Dauntless secretly the best fighter in the US early-war arsenal?
>>61467302Nah it was a boat but that pilot in particular had balls of steel and the endurance and will to live; doing high-G turns for a long time and repeated head-ons with the zeros because the tight inside turn and forcing the Zeroes into head-on engagements was the only way to survive; unfortunately those maneuvers made it so the back gunner was never able to do anything. Just had to hope he didn't get hit directly and wait until the zeros made a mistake so he could pop them. The last Zero came too close during the head on and the Dauntless' wingtip popped open the Zero's wing and so he had to dishonorabry bug out.
>>61468105> the Dauntless' wingtip popped open the Zero's wingGLORIOUS AMERICAN IRONPLANE WING DULL LIKE AXFOLDED APPROXIMATELY ONCE
>outclimbs your shitty rice burners
>>61468131
>>61468105>The last Zero came too close during the head on and the Dauntless' wingtip popped open the Zero's winghow much do you wanna bet that this never happened
>>61430173reddit meme and even if there's a kernel of truth to it, it certainly doesn't apply to fighters
>>61430169Outmanuver this, slint eye!
>>61469082>noooooo air combat was a big neverending furball with friend or foe markers on all the planes just like warthunder and ace combat told meeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!The only reddit here is you
>>61449906I pretty much doubt the loved it when a guy with a sword came that close.
>>61430169>flies higher and faster
>>61452091>assmad yellow manlet>verification not required.
>>61438523Why in the fuck would chinks shill for Imperial Japan lmao. They're still eternally assblasted over Nanking.
>>61454066>plane several years newer is betterwhoa
>>61478780A few
>>61452091all the higher-ups knew a lot of bullshit was involved, not necessarily because personnel wanted medals, glory and rewards, but also that warfare is a chaotic and volatile environ, combined with the fog of war, leads to outrageous misinterpretations and misreadings of situations. take a look >>61438664, in the action off Cape Esperence (oct 1942) one Japanese CA (Furutaka) and DD (Fubuki) were sunk, those tallies on the USS Boise claim 6 ships; two Mogami CA's (none were present), a CL and three DD's.
>>61483368>two Mogami CA's (none were present)Always kills me when this happens. Makes for funny historical records.
>>61483368>take a look >>61438664, in the action off Cape Esperence (oct 1942) one Japanese CA (Furutaka) and DD (Fubuki) were sunk, those tallies on the USS Boise claim 6 ships; two Mogami CA's (none were present), a CL and three DD's.Reminds me of how the IJN kept "sinking" the Enterprise like 7 times, and kept mistaking fleet oilers for carriers (and then missing)
>>61484508>Reminds me of how the IJN kept "sinking" the Enterprise like 7 timesthis is a great example, especially in Midway when pilots reported a CV sunk to Nagumo & the staff, then the 2nd strike reported another new CV sunk, Nagumo and his staff saw through it pretty quickly that it was the same CV instead of two.
why do zero threads always boil down to muh k/d comparisons from late war superprops that outclass it in every way? no shit America won and built better planes later but it needs to be remembered and appreciated that the zero firmly impressed and caught America off guard with its range and performance and was the best fighter in theater till 1942
>>61485903Because the Zero took a real nosedive in performance compared to other pre war designs like the Spitfire and BF-109 that remained competitive to the very end. That being said in 1940 the Zero MOGGED every single carrier plane in existance.
>>61485903>best fighter in theater till 1942the story of Imperial Japanese glory can be measured in months
>>61430324this name was "Thach" and the move he invented is called the "Weave". go figure.
>>61486294what a really dumb analogy that oversimplifies a lot of things. first of all and most importantly, the cadre of pilots in the luftwaffe didn't take a nosedive unlike the IJN, where the vast majority of pilots by 1944 were still wet behind the ears by the time they were deployed. in turn, the Luftwaffe pilots that had to be contended with were often a very experienced elite that had thousands of sorties in the eastern front. The Zero, just like the planes you mentioned, continued to be capable in the newer variants, when placed in the right hands. the few remaining experienced pilots who weren't worn through the attrition still continued to fly them effectively even against Hellcats. Saburo Sakai had a famous dogfight with more than two dozen hellcats over Iwo Jima and managed to escape with his plane completely unscathed. second of all, as mentioned above, the Zero didn't remain frozen through the war, it continued development. newer variants were in technical spec really capable and really strong. In some aspects, like range and weight to firepower, it was never eclipsed for the entirety of WW2. Finally, the Zero was a carrier based fighter unlike those land based fighters you're comparing. the Hellcat would be roflstomped by 109's or 190's any day of the week. the Zero on the other hand was capable against land-based fighters until the middle of the war. This asymmetric dynamic also had a lot of implications on the continued development and serviceability of the Zero; there were barely any Japanese carriers towards the end of the war, and less and less reason to do more R&D or production on it unlike in Germany and England where the spit and 109 continued to be the main workhorse. Those planes weren't miracle machines that had an edge on the Zero (ironically, the Zero is widely considered to have been a miracle machine, you can't find a more bang for buck fighter in the entirety of the war), but because there was no reason to replace them.
>>614869993/10
>>61430957If it was so good how come Hurricanes buried it deeper than GIs in Tokyo Twats?
>>61486999Spitfire Vs would've raped Zeroes>until the middle of the waryeah so a few months after Japan joined then>In some aspects, like range and weight to firepowerwhich is a turbo niche that nobody really needed
>>61432413works the same with 2v2
>>61486780For the longest time I thought it was "Thatch weave," for exactly that reason. Wasn't until I saw his name spelled out that I realized my error.
>>61486999>the Hellcat would be roflstomped by 109's or 190's any day of the weekThis particular analysis seems to disagree, with the USN fighters comparing favorablyhttps://youtu.be/i2aqeALGWL8?si=cMQsl2k-8vOPRZdw
>>61485903American pilots in the AVG were shitting all over Oscars (basically IJA clones of Zeroes) in P40s. The biggest issue was American commanders not taking the AVG’s warning seriously and as a result never training their pilots to fly against Japanese fighters.
>>61438074Nice cope weeb.
>>61487301Hurricanes as well. The USN's problem with Zeroes was literally skill issue
>>61487224>which is a turbo niche that nobody really needed>Long range while maintaining firepower is niche for a carrier fighterYou are legitimately retarded
>>61487878At the expense of being made of paper and being unable to communicate because lolnoradios? Yes
>>61430169>OutmanAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCCKKKKKKKKK-
>>61488650>At the expense of being made of paper and being unable to communicate because lolnoradios? Yes>Every single Zero built is an A6M2 and they never made any changes to it past 1940Ok retard
>>61487878>for a carrier fighterthis is the niche I was talking about, fuckwitJapan went all-in on sooperdooper longrange flimsy carrier fighters when an intermediate-range fighter with better protection would have been much better
>>61468150>misses by miles at altitude due to literal divine wind
>>61487224>yeah so a few months after Japan joined thenif you're going to be retarded, announce so at the top of your post so I don't waste time reading anything.
>>61489582>waahh wahhh weeaboo wahhthe death ride of the Kido Butai lasted only six months
>tfw Toho Studios actually built a full-scale replica of Shinden to use as a prop in Godzilla Minus One
>>61487224>which is a turbo niche that nobody really neededmaybe not in the video games you play, but operational range is definitely not a 'turbo niche', it is one of the most powerful and potentially battle determining factors in warfare, especially in carrier based aircraft. longer range means longer strike range, and an overhead in which an enemy with shorter ranged carrier craft will not be able to retaliate. it was also absolutely needed and a necessity in the geography of the pacific. the entire guadalcanal campaign wouldn't have been a possibility for the Japanese if their aircraft didn't possess insane range. less mumbling about shit you're clueless in and more reading up on it, monkey.
>>61491268>gives up armour for muh long range>loses>N-N-N-NO UR THE MONKEY RANGE IS IMPORTANT MKAY JAPAN WOULDA WON I-I-IFrorrmao
>>61490937Welp, guess I officially need to watch this movie now.
>>61491268This is actually a fair point. It's not until like mid-43 or perhaps even '44 that you stop reading about aircraft from Truk or Rabaul harrassing every Allied movement in the Pacific.
>>61491268Question.Was there ever a battle or operation where the Zero’s range actually made a difference in the outcome?
>>61491268>the entire guadalcanal campaign wouldn't have been a possibility for the Japanese if their aircraft didn't possess insane range>giving up combat ability for range allows you to lose further from homeimplessive
>>61491602Pearl Harbor.
>>61491602Pearl Harbor, Indian Ocean and Santa Cruz. Not that this bears any kind of direct correlation to the proposition, and can easily change depending on your criteria of victory. Is being able to strike beyond the enemy's range a win? in that case many Japanese aircraft (not just the Zero) had many victories.
>>61449906>Marines loved it when the nips chargedYeahThey loved it so much that sometimes people abandoned their position only because piles grew too highSame story can be heard from eastern front and finnish frontIt is almost like some humans have kill limit
>>61449906>Actually, part of reconciliation has seen a number of these flags returned to kin/the villages where the dead squint came from.Yes because those "good luck flags" were actually personalized farewell presents from the parents, siblings, wives, children, friends, etc. of Japanese draftees rather than battle flags as they were assumed to be by the Americans.
>>61492872Wouldn't blame any Marine that wanted to keep theirs, but I do think it's a nice gesture to return them. Not my place to decide.
>>61491602Depends on how much range you give up?
>>61438664
>>61494221kek
>>61491602The longer range of Japanese carrier fighters was a constant issue for the USN because that gave the IJN a large window to attack USN carriers without fear of reprisal if they were spotted early enough. This did play a large factor in several of the major carrier battles, but was largely negated by inferior communication on the IJN's part and generally much better recon for the USN. But it eventually did come down to whether the tradeoff in range was acceptable for the vulnerability to damage every plane had. As the war went on, it became clear survivability was becoming more important than range when Zeroes started going down in droves and the K:D ratios started to flip.
>>61494334>generally much better recon for the USNDon't forget, as in the case of Midway, either luck or Providence, depending on your preferred belief system.
>>61430169you're*
>>61455979>
>>61494429Why didn't the kamis help Japan?
>>61494529Why didn't God help the US win in Vietnam? From an atheistic perspective, the answer is easy: it's all made up. From the Christian perspective, it's equally easy, the kamis aren't real, false gods for a heathen people and it was God's will the US should prevail and teach the heathens a lesson. To answer Vietnam from that perspective, the US grew fat on its success, like ancient Israel before it, forgot who deserved the credit for that success, and had to be humbled.
>>61433213>the dumbass yanks didn't fly into the eclipse You could have had it all.
>>61494334>eventuallyMidway was only six months after Pearl
>>61494334>The longer range of Japanese carrier fighters was a constant issue for the USN because that gave the IJN a large window to attack USN carriers without fear of reprisal if they were spotted early enough.Wouldn't that be more of a function of the range of the torpedo and dive bombers.>>61494429Depends on your threshold for calling something lucky. More both sides bungling and the inherent difficulties of what they were doing.
>>61466146>and Bearcat.Which wasn't used in WW2. If you want to bring in the Bearcat, then compare it to the Shinden, Ki-94-II or Reppu.
>>61496020The Bearcat actually existed though
>>61432413>getting into a fair fightngmi
I think a major complicating issue with determining the worth of the Zero's range is that it's subject to so many other factors. Sure, a Zero can leave Rabul, fly to Henderson field to dogfight the Cactus Air Force then fly back to Rabul, something no Allied fighter at the time could. But that also means having a pilot fly formation in a plane with no autopilot, an uncomfortable seat that for some reason only comes halfway up your back and poor radios for hours until getting into combat, whereupon a single rifle caliber round striking a fuel tank equals doom. Yes, a Zero could launch at a carrier from a different time zone, but by the time he gets there the carrier is probably a hundred miles elsewhere and you have no way of reliably communicating. How much of the Zero's range could have been sacrificed for some other benefit?
>>61496035>The Bearcat actually existed though>J7WFirst flight 8/3/45>Ki-94-IIFirst flight was scheduled like 1 month after the war>A7MFirst flight 5/6/44
>>61489275>Japan went all-in on sooperdooper longrange flimsy carrier fightersWhich literally made it one of the best carrier fighters of the early war and allowed for raids like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines and Darwin to be so successful.>intermediate-range fighter with better protection would have been much better>Hurr durr the Zero never changed after 1940Google the A6M5 retard. As the war progressed and needs pivoted, Japan started armoring and putting self sealing fuel tanks on the Zero.
>>61494429Midway was intelligence:https://warontherocks.com/2016/06/the-battle-of-midway-the-complete-intelligence-story/btw, I would bet that the American command did know about planned Pearl Harbor attack but the constant problem of both British and American intelligence was that they had to be extremely careful to not spill the beans and raise suspicions about how much intelligence data they really gather. In case of Pearl Harbor they likely decided to just minimize losses for that purpose, but it is sensitive (and morally vague) enough that an open admission is unlikely. You may read "The Spies Who Never Were" for detailed account of an enormous success of ww2 British intelligence.
>>61496482I believe you are clinically retarded
>>61496507Check you psychiatrist about your believes.
>>61496482>American command did know about planned Pearl Harbor attackThere's a difference between strategic and operational intelligence. The Americans certainly knew that Japan was meditating war, since November if not October there were ongoing diplomatic talks to try and avert war. However this isn't operationally useful; unlike Midway, it was not possible to determine where the Japanese would strike and crucially, when.
>>61496531>unlike Midway, it was not possible to determine where the Japanese would strike and crucially, when.sure thing it wasn't
>>61496350>allowed for raids like Pearl Harbor, the Philippines and Darwin to be so successful.because the operational range of Zero fighters were the critical success factor for Pearl, it would have been totally defeated if not for that amirite>Japan started armoring and putting self sealing fuel tanks on the Zero.and I'm sure it didn't affect operational range one bitand the Zero totally didn't need them before
>>61496537>America just let half it's navy get sunk because, uh, they wanted to keep their intelligence efforts secret>crippling the entire japanese carrier fleet on day zero 3,000 miles from home wouldn't have been the most incredible start to the war imaginable
>>61496679Do you mean that the US should have just _attacked_ Japanese navy?Give up fucktard, I already had to teach you that Midway wasn't a "luck or Providence" and I gave you the source which further explains that SUCCESFULLY COMMANDING A FUCKING WAR includes making morally vague decisions. Have you even heard about "hold your ground no matter what"? Fuck off idiot.
>>61496732I am not the same person you were talking to about Midway. "Morally vague" and "spread your asshole open for Kido Butai at Pearl" are not the same thing. If the US knew about the attack, then 'Midway' should have happened on Dec 7th off Hawaii.
>>61432413>retard charges at your team in a game, kill him instantly>"woooow it took four of you to kill me"
>>61487255He called it the 'beam defense position' himself. The catchy name was thought up afterwards, as a pun on his name.
>>61496551>and I'm sure it didn't affect operational range one bitYou should look it up, it looks like armor plates and self sealing fuel tanks were only going to be installed in the A6M5c of which 93 were built and self sealing fuel tanks might not have been used.
>>61496324And the Bearcat was in service in May 1945, with a thousand total built. How many of the Jap wunderplanes existed?>J7W2>KI-94-II2>A7MA whole 9
>>61452091>imagine how much bullshitting there was in WW2considering how many complete newbies japan was stuffing into zeros im really not surprised americans got so many kills late in the pacific campaign. air combat is basically just MMO PVP, if you have no experience you are just going to die.
>>61498762Japan made the mistake of keeping its best ace pilots in combat until they were eventually shot down instead of rotating them into instructor roles at their flight schools. It would then take the best pilots from those flight schools and send them on suicide missions. The military junta that controlled Japan at that time fundamentally saw the lives of Japanese citizens as disposable for the greater cause of maintaining the empire, even though most young pilots sent on kamikaze missions weren't fanatics for the Emperor at all.
>>61496551you retarded armchair shitstorians contribute nothing to discussion with your hot takes. please take it to /his/ or some other midwit imageboard.
>>61468150>attacks at high altitude during the day bristling with defensive guns>minimal effect on target and 10% losses per sortie>attacks at low altitude at night with all guns removed in favor of more bombs>extremely effective and only lose 4% maximum per sortie>crewmen still maintain the high altitude flights were saferI guess the golden rule as a commander is to always ignore the grunts mewling.
>>61499300>mistakeThey didn't have a real choice, skilled pilots were in short supply even before the war, they had to pull instructors from the schools to fill out the Pearl Harbor raid crews. From then on it was harder to justify pulling the skilled pilots out of combat because doing so would lead to a massive plunge in overall frontline pilot quality. The hope and prayer was that those old guard pilots could hold the line long enough for a peace to break out.
>>61500132Turns it into potential for discussion instead of a circle jerk. Seems like you're only capable of calling that anon a retard.
>>61500630nah they made some terrible conscious decisions to keep airmen, even surplus ones that should've been sent home to reconstitute their groups, at the front line. take the pilot cadres from the best carriers after they were sunk in Midway, contrary to popular belief only less than a quarter of them perished during the action. the IJN dispersed them at various places in the pacific, mostly Rabaul, because they didn't want them to go home and spill the beans about the disaster. this also happened to the vast majority of personnel involved in the action around Midway, including crews of the carriers in question. the IJNAS and IJAAF had a lot of surplus and potential to rotate some airmen to the rear to train newer airmen. this is only a microcosm of the problem anyway, the few expert airmen who were rotated to the rear noted that junior pilots often outranked veterans and had a conceited and arrogant attitude that made it hard to pass down the knowledge.
>>61486780Thach called it the Beam Defense maneuver”.
>>61495789>Wouldn't that be more of a function of the range of the torpedo and dive bombers.Japanese fighter bombers typically had more range than their equivalents as well, for mostly the same reasons.
>>61499300It wouldn't have helped, since there was no fuel to train their new pilots further. Furthermore there was usually no time or place for proper conversion training. Any advanced fighters or multi-engine bombers would eat much more fuel than the early trainers they had.
>>61430169>defends midway while being adorable in your path
>>61430310Through 1942 to early 1943, USN and IJN fighter losses were pretty close. The IJN's inability to replace pilots with newly trained ones wasn't due to any failing of the A6M, but a worse pilot training pipeline that was overly harsh prewar and unable to expand to the same extent as the US after war began. Which is to be expected given Japan had almost half the population and less industrialized economy than the US. The A6M was long in the tooth by mid-1943 and not having a replacement by then was also a failure of the IJN, but the pilot attrition up to that point was in line with what the US experienced and can't be held against the aircraft itself.
>>61501394>suffers 65% attrition in one engagementI don't think you can call that "defending," anon, more like "dying gloriously."
>outmaneuvers your outmaneuver of a different outmaneuver
>>61501841paintings of modern wars always look comically bad to me, because it's artists trying to depict the drama of pre-modern/early modern warfare in an era where it doesn't happen.
>>61433929I'm generally not a fan of WW2 American fighters, but I love the P-38 for the nerdiest reason possible.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zg1OSM7sTXA
>>61501801President heika banzai!
>>61501015Its going back to >>61489275If all three were used together which aircraft would likely set the limit on the range and would this range change much if a more intermediate fighter was used. Though this may require a more concrete idea of what anon was thinking an intermediate fighter would be.
>>61502132You are retarded. With that aside, the Japanese doctrine was based around offense. exerting air superiority over larger distances is a key factor in offense. escorting other aircraft is also just a subset of what the fighter would do. carrier ops are also a primary design direction but not the only one. the fighter would be employed as the main fighter for the navy air service. it would be dispatched to all air groups and the majority would be operating from the ground. providing escort or air superiority over longer ranges here is vital in the geography of the pacific. in the escort role the fighter would not only escort carrier borne aircraft, it would also provide air cover for vessels and for twin engine bombers that had extreme range. finally, adding self-sealing fuel tanks isn't just reducing the range, it's increasing the weight, reducing climb, reducing maneuverability, it went entirely against the design specs and philosophy they were going for. The Zero had superior speed, climb rate and maneuverability. it already had a lot of offensive defense. Adding self-sealing fuel tanks would also have almost definitely damned the Zero into being dwarfed by the combination carrier attack bombers it was meant to operate with, by the way.
>>61502233To add to anon's point about self-sealing fuel tanks, they were bleeding edge new technology that still had kinks in 1939-41. Whether a plane could even use them depending on whether the wing was thick enough to fit them without unacceptably crippling the fuel load. F4Fs we're being retrofitted with self-sealing tanks in the field in 1942, and only F4F-4s were coming out of the factory with them. There's also the problem where fuel could cause the rubber bladder of the fuel tank to break down, allowing small rubber particles to enter the engine and cripple it. It took time for the combatant nations to solve these issues, and the really the only uncompromised designs that had self-sealing tanks were mid-late war ones that both had the greater power of newer engines and had wings and fuselages designed with the extra space necessary from the start. A 1937-38 design wasn't going to have that.
>>61502233>it went entirely against the design specs and philosophy they were going forwe knowwe're disputing that the design philosophy provided an actionable advantage> The Zero had superior speed, climb rate and maneuverabilityat the expense of protection and firepower, which is how theoretically inferior opponents managed to beat it - Hurricanes, P40s, and F4Fs. Dissimilar air combat is about playing on the strengths and weaknesses of each aircraft type.If the Zero had traded a little bit of its range and manoeuvrability for protection, it might have done better at being a fighter. Offensive fighter sweeps, if any were carried out, didn't alter the outcome of any major battles Zeroes were involved in.>bbbbut PearlThe fleet was blasted to pieces either way, Zero or no Zero.
>>61494221I like Air Group 88's scoreboard the most.
>>61503137Why do you think the P40, Hurricane and F4F 'beat' the Zero when every single allied WW2 pilot thought otherwise?
>>61503137>we're disputing that the design philosophy provided an actionable advantageBeing able to escort your bombers for the duration of their mission is generally considered an actionable advantage.>at the expense of protectionProtection for nearly every plane of the era consisted of a thin steel backplate for the pilot's chair and a small bullet proof front windscreen. It's marginal and doesn't help at all against deflection shots.>and firepowerThe A6M had two 20mm cannons. Not as good as the Hispanos, but a 20mm HE shell is a 20mm HE shell. It's going to fuck a plane up. >If the Zero had traded a little bit of its range and manoeuvrability for protection, it might have done better at being a fighter.These aren't sliders on a statboard that you can adjust willy nilly. Self-sealing fuel tanks and armor plate are physical pieces of kit that have to fit somewhere, and the engine has to be able to haul that additional weight. Not to mention the follow-on effects. You cut the A6M 's range, now the G4M squadrons are unescorted and get cut to pieces a la the Lexington attack in Feb '42.
>>61503302>is generally consideredyes, most advantages on paper are, but in operational practice, did it matter?were the Zeroes able to stop CAP fighters from disrupting the attack?conversely, on strike missions where the Zeroes were absent, did the attack fail?>It's marginalExcept it wasn't>and doesn't help at all against deflection shots.You mean "high deflection" shots, and not all shots were>The A6M had two 20mm cannons. Not as good as the Hispanosit seems they had very bad synchronisation problemsit was also an option to mount more machine guns and make up for firepower with volume>You cut the A6M 's range, now the G4M squadrons are unescorted and get cut to pieces a la the Lexington attack in Feb '42.Or, as the US Navy's carriers did, you simply move closer to the target.
>>61502233>carrier ops are also a primary design direction but not the only oneIt's the main one being discussed. Using a separate ground based design for long range escort is also a possibility.
>>61503368>Or, as the US Navy's carriers did, you simply move closer to the target.Land based bombers look up the Lexington off Bougainville and laugh at that anon.
>>61430173most aircraft shot down have no idea they are in flight
>>61503368>did it matter?Yes anon, if you had read literally any literature on the matter you'd know this.>on strike missions where the Zeroes were absent, did the attack fail?I mentioned one fuckwit, Lexington on 2/20/43. Unescorted G4M attack gave Butch O'Hare his medal of honor.>Except it wasn'tIt was. These are two very small target areas that only protect the pilot, and even then only in two engagement directions. There's a lot of places a plane can take a disabling or destructive hit other than the pilot.>it seems they had very bad synchronisation problemsWhat? You really have 0 idea what you're talking about about. The main issues with the 20mm were a lower muzzle velocity and low ammo count. Ammo count was a tradeoff that the UK and Germany also made for the Spitfire and 109 respectively. >Or, as the US Navy's carriers did, you simply move closer to the target.Bad idea for the IJN. Being closer to the target means they're in range of the target longer, and unlike the US their shipyards do not have the ability to make good capital ship losses.
>>61503544>2/20/43Damn a G4M flew all the way to the Caribbean to attack the Lexington on its shakedown?
>>61503571Meant 2/20/42
>>61503600Doesn't matter, I will now ignore all your arguments because you made a minor mistake. I have won.
>>61440659And yet Wildcats managed to achieve a slightly better than 1:1 kill ratio against Zeros during 1942, when JNAF pilot skills were at their peak. 129:111 or something like that. Source: "Wildcat vs Zero" Osprey book.
>>61503694That's not because they were better plains! Tell the truth about the fucking superiority of the Zeros! The Americans just had better tactics and superior numbers in dogfights!
>>61504124> The Americans just had better tacticsIf it can be overcome with simple tactics, it’s not a superior aircraft is it?
>>61503694That's pure fighter to fighter ratio?
>>61503694>And yet Wildcats managed to achieve a slightly better than 1:1 kill ratio against Zeros during 1942Wrong. See >>61455802
>>61501841What did that artist smoke before painting this shit?
>>61503203>OyodaA relative of Oyodo?
>>61503368>but in operational practice, did it matter?Does being able to conduct an entire military campaign without CV's matter? if so, yes.
>>61505101I think it is supposed to be Ooyodo. Quick check of Wikipedia reveals she was sunk at Kure in '45, which is also what happened to Haruna. The page on the strikes there note both ships were damaged on the 24th of July, and sank after a second round of attacks on the 28th.
>>61501955NES port was so shitty. Arcade version is great.
>>61496230You also have to account for mechanical problems.
>>61430173Only if you were on the wrong side of Erich Hartmann's plane
>>61433673The luftwaffe was barely even still an entity by the time that thing came to Europe, not to mention its common knowledge how much the allies outnumbered the Germans in the sky by that time too. Total bullshit numbers sorry retard
>>61432335I always thought it was for preventing the tail from ripping off kek
>>61506350Also less rescued aircrews. If its a question of what is the best option for how to modify it to achieve their objectives within their means, it doesn't really matter much they're fucked either way. There's some room to wonder about what kind of design or design combinations would yield the greatest efficacy, but it'd probably end up with an answer they never could have implemented.
I judge planes based solely on their looks
>>61508553I judge planes on how drunk i can get on the coolant fluids.
>>61508553Based fellow Fulcrum enjoyer. Sukhoi will never be the real Russian fighter producer.
>>61496230Nice hot take but elementary stuff like this is accounted for with the help of the arcane inventions called nav charts and radios (seldom used for this). >it is uncomfortable for the pilotcomfort is superfluous in warfare. getting the job done uncomfortably is better than being unable to do it entirely. If I was going to launch an offensive on Midway or Hawaii, I would rather have aircraft that can make Wake Island part of the game even on the tactical level even though it is nearly 1000 kilometers away from Midway atoll.On the other hand, I've read about entire squadrons of US planes crashing in the sea because they failed to locate their carriers, even with tactless frequent radio messaging and zed baker homing devices. This discussion is dumb and filled with brainlet whatifisms anyway, because the entirety of the Japanese doctrine was built around offensive capability, and honestly just a swift skim in google earth over south Asia, the Philippines and the Pacific should give one a clear understanding why that happened, even if you didn't read the history on the Japanese blitz in 1942 and how air superiority from bases in Taiwan and south China sea eliminated ABDA presence in the Java sea & Indian Ocean.
>>61430169Outmaneuver this, fag.
>>61511666>This discussion is dumb and filled with brainlet whatifisms anyway,The irony
>>61511679Cool. That's like saying USS. Constitution is a shit ship because she couldn't win a gun duel with Nagato.
