Let's talk PDWs. What's your dream PDW? Something that either went into serial production, prototyping, or was merely proposed. Something with the right balance of firepower, compactness, armor penetration, handling, and accuracy within 200 yards. I don't know how well pic related worked (I suspect not well given the fact that it's dead), but it always made me hard, and sometimes I dream about one chambering 300 blackout. Without that, something like PSA's Jakl looks like something that could hit hard and I could fit it in a backpack.
>>61432436Steyr ACR SBR that shoots a normal spin-stabilized bullet. .224 caliber CT, with a VLD bullet and slightly higher power from a 14" barrel than 5.56x45 from a 20" barrel. Think .224 Valkyrie but with 1.5" OAL.
The Desert Tech WLVRN micron is probably the one rifle on the market that really fits the bill for me. Eventually it will be offered in 300blk if you care about that. Id rather keep the 556 version or maybe an sbr'd .308.
>>61432436I've had one rolling around in my head for awhile and I just can't put it to paper.>bullpup>15" OAL for concealment under a jacket>9ish inch barrel>rotating barrel telescoping bolt recoil operation for maximum space saving behind the chamber (think a beefed up PX4)>chambered in 9x25 Dillon beefed up to 55k PSI>saber style handguard with a hand stop as a rudimentary foregrip Just a really tiny carbine with the power of an M4 that sits on a sling under a jacket ready to swing out and fire at similar speed to a handgun.
Bullpup Vector in 10mm
>>61432436Chest mounted claymore
>>61432753But is it actually good?
>>61432436Whatever it is, give it a suppressor. Not because it's for top secret solid snake bullshit, but because if you're a truck driver and actually need your PDW you probably won't have time to fuck around with putting on earpro.
>>61434024Sounds good except for the rotating barrel, should be a fixed barrel with some delayed blowback. Better accuracy.
>>61432436Honey Badger SD>light weight at 5LB 6OZ>well balanced>narrow foreend, very pointy>silencer>300 blackout good for shooting>standard AR mags>flared mag well for reloads>shoots good>short and compact when collapsed
The DAO-12
M2 Carbine in .22 Spitfire, ideally with reworked magazines to overcome some of the shortcomings in the design.
>>61432436I really like the PDR because aside from being a 10.5" rifle in a P90 package, it doesn't rely on any novel technologies or unusual design elements so theoretically it wouldn't be hard to create. as for mine, >5.56 or other intermediate caliber>bullpup>P90 magazine>side loading and side ejection>reversible feed/ejection>telescoped bolt and mainspringBy shifting the protruding mag from the rear of the pistol grip to the side, you can push the grip/trigger further back and get a really low OAL and LOP at the cost of making the gun unusable for wrong-handed people. Also, since a 5.56 magazine would be extremely wide, side loading would keep the overall width of the gun at the cost of increasing height. pic unrelated, but when else am I gonna post this >>61434043the Vector is literally the anti-bullpup, it sacrifices OAL to get the most optimal bore axis height
>>61434492What gun is this?
>>61434608Famas 9mm conversion kit
>>61434624Ah yes, the legendary 9mm CT conversion for the downward ejecting FAMAS.
>>61434055Signs point to yes, but its a bit early to make a concrete assumption.
>>61434633>he doesn't know
>>61432436VZ58 pistol with folding brace or SBR with folding stock. Conceals well under a jacket and you don't have to carry bulky mags to further conceal that you're armed with a rifle. You can carry clips.Alternatively an AK with Kochevnik bullpup kit. You won't get to carry clips but mags load quicker anyway. If cut to a 12" barrel it's about the size of a P90 so can pie and corner easily. I acquired one of these kits just haven't put it on yet.
I would like to change my answer to the TKB-022 but with the pistol grip moved to a couple inches in front of the magazine and the barrel chopped down to just in front of the trigger guard.
>>61434833
>>61435161It's just as beautiful as I envisioned thank you anon
MP7 in hybrid case 221 fireball/22 spitfire/5.56 MARS
>>61435380Edit: and that’s more like a PDW-sized assault rifle
This is now an MKR thread. Blessed be the name of George Kellgren.
>>61435570
>>61435575
>>61435579
>>61435583
>>61434055My 14" tavor is as long as a Micron.This is why I did not bother buying a micron.I'm waiting on a 5.56 10" bullpup as long as a P90.
>>61435587
>>61435591
>>61432436I wish magpul had the balls to make that.total niggers teased it and then made more shitty mags.
>>61435594The bottom one. The cute lil machine pistol with the half-moon mag sticking out the side. Ergonomics be damned, that's my dream PDW right there.
>>61435599
>>61435607
>>61435613
>>61435617
>>61435621
>>61432436>bullpup, HK 4.6, 14-18 OAL>cheeked>ejects parallel to neck>TOP LOADS (rock & lock) presented in typical 'workspace' orientation, clockwise right wrist to to present (parallel to shoulders) for reload hammer gripped in>FORWARD trigger [electronic] housed integrally in ventral hand grip [if pistol caliber, holds another mag>receiver area contours such as facilitate 'shrugging/pinching' said area in addition to cheeking>incidentally 'ambidextrous' by virtue of ejecting down from Southpaw [behind the back]>intermediate rifle caliber version returns the magazine to downward facing while retaining other features, except the trigger (electronic) housing abutts (discretely) the magazine which is held AK style as the ersatz pistol grip>>61434717>>61434833>>61435161These but the ass backwards.
>>61435866are we closing in on the ideal PDW yet?
>>61435866>>61436047or perhaps this is what you meant
>>61435161I have to wonder how this one would work. I know it would, Korobov would make it work.
>>61436059Heck of a shotgun
>>61436161this is it, we're reaching the ultimate PDW
>>61436176OH FUCK GO BACK
>>61432436Might fail on compactness, but it makes up for it in firepower. Maybe beef it up to an intermediate cartridge too.
>>61432436
>>61432436who doesn’t love .300 blackout in a MP7 size package?
Hi
>>61435628>Interdynamic Foreskinnings
>>61432436Two types:the ultra lightweight and compact folding braced pistol. Effective out to 100m and otherwise the convenience of a pistol, but stable enough to be accurate beyond typical pistol accurate ranges of 25m.Actual SBR PDW, lightweight and accurate to 300m, and carbine performance with a fast bullet that causes hydrostatic wounding.In both cases, neither are "offensive" weapons, but defensive in nature, although the PDW should have good enough performance to be competitive as a service rifle, at least within 300m.
a machine pistol with a small folding stock, shooting saboted pistol ammo with steel penetrators. top it off with a red dot sight.
>>61432436I think you're approaching your own thread wrong.If I can wish for anything, then I don't want to use my hands operating it. I want it to shoot where I look, without me having to worry about aiming, bullet drop and recoil. Basically the shoulder thing from predator.Given I'd aim with "just my eyes", I'd want it in a caliber that punches through all armor I may expect within 250m.
>>61436203>intermediateLike 12 gauge?
>>61438394I was thinking something like .300 Blackout since it's whole schtick is being straightwalled, but that works too.
>>61436203>FN 5.7×28mm>1.594 inch length>0.313 inch diameter>5.56 CT>1.556 inch length>0.419 inch diameterWhy can't someone make a P90 in 5.56 CT, gun width wouldn't change as the bullets are mounted perpendicular to the gun and shar a similar length. Mag might be a little thicker but vertical height is easier to adjust for than have a gun too wide to hold.
>>61438880You misspelled .350 LegendBrought to you by Winchester™
>>61432436An MP7 is basically my ideal PDW.
>>61439428Can an MP7 crack level 4 plate
>>61432436>What's your dream PDW?Single line helical magazine like on the PP90M1 or a Calico M100/110 with Très Haute Vitesse or Monad ammo in 10mm or .45 but with the pressure upped to 63ksi and chamber walls to match. Magazine placed over the gun like a P90 feeding to the rear, ejecting down. The THV bullets may be either copper or a polymer but whatever the case it should have a hardened steel or tungsten core that protrudes out the point of the bullet and extends all the way back into the case so that the softer shell can peel away on impact with hard armor while the pin digs in. The ammo may be slightly longer in the case to prevent it from chambering in older guns made for the pistol counterpart ammo and should be electrically ignited. The gun will still have a mechanical firing pin so it will be backwards compatible with the pistol ammo, letting users switch seamlessly to subsonic 10mm or naturally subsonic .45 without the need to swap barrels. Integrally supressed, of course.
>>61436142Stop posting this garbage, it's not how that works.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5x_clmnUjoYour picture was lambasted years before this video was made.
>>61436176>>61436186Lmao, nice one. Realistically, you could make a pretty nice PDW out of the Zip .22 if you fixed the reliability issues and lengthened it by about 6". Move the trigger assembly and put a pistol grip near the front of the lengthened forend, give it a red dot mount, and put on a P90-esque trigger guard/foregrip. It even has a stock inherent to the design. 3 points of contact, 9" OAL, and practically zero recoil. You could probably IWB conceal the thing.
>>61432436The ideal PDW is either a stocked Wonder9 pistol or a 10.5" AR15.Anything else is a pure meme.
>>61440303Stocked pistol sucks. 10.5" AR too big. There needs to be a middle ground that has the stability and power of a short rifle (no, a stocked pistol does not do this) but is small enough to be concealed.
>>61440594Why couldn't a stocked pistol have the power of a short rifle?
>>61434043If hi point would make a double stack carbine in 10mm and high tower made a compatible bullpup stock i would be happy and i wouldnt have to shell out 1500 for a vector even though i want one.
PDR in .300 Blackout with a detachable suppressor. Literal perfection.
Something like this in 10mm. Ideally 9x25 Dillon, but that ain't happening.
>>61440605They can. You just run into barrel length constraints. You can get the energy, but you need high velocity and energy to match the wounding mechanics of an intermediate rifle round. 7.5FK is the only thing that even gets close, and it'll still need at least an 8" barrel to get clean past 2000 fps. At that point, it loses the utility of a pistol by being over a foot long.The real problem is stability and rapid deployment. Pistol stocks add a fuckload of unnecessary length to get support that's far inferior to a bad rifle stock. If you fold the stock, it's still not going to be as concealable as any handgun and it won't be usable as soon as you draw it while also making the gun harder to handle than a stockless pistol.You have to work from the ground up to make a gun that circumvents the issues of stocked pistols. They're a dead-end of compromises.
>>61440594If you dropped the stupid forward magazine, the Flux Raider already solves most size issues with stocked pistols by having a conventional retractable stock. PDWs don't need to be that powerful. They're either for home defense, where a defensive 9mm load is more than enough, or they're for truck drivers in the Army, where you want something soft shooting because the guy isn't well trained anyhow. Is it as good as a fixed stock, no. But it is better than nothing and more than good enough. Sans fore-grip, it'd be bigger than a conventional full size handgun, but still carryable. A 10.5" AR is easier to carry and use than 90% of the bullshit people posted in their thread. Plastic fantastic bullpups look good in Ghost in the Shell and video games but aren't interesting at all IRL and take up more space than an AR pattern SBR.
>>61440774at least they're trying
>>61440835The problem is all the bullshit forward of the trigger guard making the thing basically useless as a carry piece. A dremel should be included with the kit so you can de-retardify the package. Still, its fine for HD, but for a military context would need to slim down to fill any role than an AR pattern SBR doesn't already.
>>61439532>crack level 4 plateFull size rifles don't crack level four plates dipshit.
>>61440730Yeah, you'd have to make something completely from scratch, but I don't think the problems are insurmountable. I think the formfactor of >>61440691 is close to the best option, but put a hefty spring in the stock to snap it into place when you press the button to deploy it. Then instead of a normal pistol action, use a rearward ejecting rising chamber bullpup like >>61434492, and a 5.56 CT cartridge like >>61439339. The compacted powder used in CT cartridges is more efficient than normal ball powder, so you could certainly outperform the performance of .22 TCM out of a 5" barrel: 40gr at ~2050 FPS. If you could get that up to 62gr at 2200 FPS, that would be enough to reliably fragment an M855A1 bullet out to 150 yards or so. No point in going further than that in a PDW. Also keep in mind that you're getting a free 3 cartridges of barrel length by moving the chamber from 1 cartridge length ahead of the magazine to 1 cartridge length behind. That's going to be about 4.5" on top of the normal 4-5" barrel length, so you might end up going significantly faster than that anyway.The drawback would be that it would dump hot brass (plastic, not quite as bad) on your wrist when fired as a pistol, but pressing the relatively short stock back into your shoulder will probably flex your wrist enough that it's not a problem. Add a brass deflector on the stock to keep it from dumping brass down your jacket and it shouldn't have any issue when used as a PDW.
>>61440774>If you dropped the stupid forward magazine, the Flux Raider already solves most size issues with stocked pistols by having a conventional retractable stock. The "not a foregrip" mag holder is a key point in improving stability. You want your hands apart with a stocked gun and the Raider system at least manages that, but compromises HARD on the shitty wire stock design.>PDWs don't need to be that powerfulBut at the point where you're compromising on size, you might as well beef up the cartridge it fires. It's the same reason you gimp yourself by going with a PCC for serious use.>A 10.5" AR is easier to carry and use than 90% of the bullshit people posted in their thread. >Plastic fantastic bullpups look good in Ghost in the Shell and video games but aren't interesting at all IRL and take up more space than an AR pattern SBR.This is just wrong. Bullpups have outright superior handling qualities to a conventional layout rifle. They "take up more space" until you cut down the barrel to below 16", then they blow any 10.5" AR out of the water.
>>61440998>Also keep in mind that you're getting a free 3 cartridges of barrel length by moving the chamber from 1 cartridge length ahead of the magazine to 1 cartridge length behind. That's going to be about 4.5"Oops, I realized I'm retarded and it's only 2 cartridge lengths. Still, that's a 7-8" barrel in the footprint of a standard service pistol.
>>61441022Use the flashlight as the VFG instead. Have the battery tube flip down and hold it from there.
>>61440998I like your ideas, but we're talking about multiple unproven technologies with zero manufacturing infrastructure to work off of.
>>61441054I would go even simpler and use asaber-style trigger guard as a foregrip.
>>61441085There's some question marks involved with the CT cartridge, but the rising chamber action worked fine in the Steyr ACR and Textron NGSW. It's a pity Sig stole the contract, if Textron got it we would have seen the first true paradigm shift in small arms in over a hundred years.
>>61441022There are many ways to hold a pistol shaped object that have been developed. And they're good enough with the introduction of a third point of contact that the not-a-foregrip is purely unnecessary bulk. The a pistol based PDW should fit in a holster on your belt, at the very least. And it should be easily forgettable.If you're increasing size to some meme cartridge used by one gun in Eastern Europe or something, because its SAAMI specs look nice, you might as well go all the way to an SBR. Otherwise, 9mm kills like the plague and already is good enough for self-defense or holding off attackers. And it is already in wide use among people carrying self-defense pistols or sidearms in militaries. You don't actually have to go to a stronger cartridge at all. That is totally unnecessary overcomplication. >posts some retarded tavor that is somehow still bulkier than an AR carbineCarry that around while someone else carries a 10.5" AR and see who is happier. It won't be you. You made an awkward monstrosity that takes up more physical space than a normal SBR. Just stick with what is already good instead of betting on a meme gun.
>>61441118>worked fine in these two totally irrelevant and failed gunslol
>>61441132>Carry that around while someone else carries a 10.5" AR and see who is happier.It looks even chonkier than usual because it's so short. It's 10" shorter than your 10" AR.
>>61441146It worked fine in a gun that wasn't selected because flechettes are a meme and another gun that wasn't selected because of corruption.
>>61441192Textron dropped out many months before the NGSW program finalized, on their own terms. The decision was only between SIG and True Velocity. True Velocity also applied for a GAO review of the contract given to SIG and then dropped it themselves. Stop loving meme guns.
>>61441173Also wider in bad spots, potentially heavier and doesn't have anywhere useful to put your hands.
>>61441219>Brass informs GD and Textron that Sig had the contract before the "competition" even began>GD and Textron voluntarily drop out since they can just get themselves free contracts for tanks or missiles or something>TV chimps out because they spent a million billion dollars developing their plastic bullets and the the company is doomed without a contract>GAO informs them that they're in on the corruption and all TV can do at this point is throw away the rest of their investment capital>TV gives up and goes home
>>61441293Or the waste of time LSAT project shit the bed and the company that tried to sell a combat rifle with a recoiling barrel in 2022 both failed compared to SIG who just made another piston AR, aka the most successful modern rifle pattern.
>>61439846this.. this is what you wanted right?
>>61441132>good enough>good enoughThere's your problem. You're compromising for the sake of staying with inferior designs.>a pistol based PDW should fit in a holster on your belt, at the very least.A 15" micro carbine PDW could easily work with a drop leg holster design. If you want concealment, you could have one under a jacket with a shoulder rig.>If you're increasing size to some meme cartridge used by one gun in Eastern Europe or something, because its SAAMI specs look nice, you might as well go all the way to an SBR. Except there's a massive difference in OAL, which achieves the end goal of shortening the action. Most SBR rounds also need a lot more barrel than a high pressure pistol round. .300 blk has identical ballistics at the muzzle to 7.5 FK out of a 6" barrel.>9mm is already in wide use among people carrying self-defense pistols or sidearms in militaries. >You don't actually have to go to a stronger cartridge at all. That is totally unnecessary overcomplication. Except every military and police force in the world is switching from SMGs to SBRs for CQB. Anybody that just carries a pistol to have a gun isn't going to want a stock on it anyway.
>>61441461OH MY GOD SHE'S SO CUTE THANK YOU ANON
>>61441990No one wants to carry a 15" long carbine on their hip all day. That sounds utterly terrible and completely unergonomic. Even the biggest meme handcannons like the Deagle aren't that big. PDWs are aimed at people behind the line who need to be armed, but aren't expected to fight. Ease of carrying is key. Either the gun is attached to them, so it needs to be comfortable to carry and easy to ignore while they do their real jobs, or it's accepted that it will be stored off their person, but it still needs to be comfortable to carry when necessary. The Raider chassis fits the first potential shape with a little adjustment. And it provides a reasonably effective stock for increase effectiveness over a standard handgun. But if we don't want that, then we move to an SBR, as a 10.5" AR can be kept in a truck door just fine or stored elsewhere conveniently. And are very easy to shoot. PDWs are made for either people at home, for whom 9mm is a pretty good choice for home defense. Or it's for people who aren't carrying a standard carbine in the military. 9mm is soft shooting, doesn't blow out your ears from a short barrel, and effective at killing or maiming human targets. There's no need for a boutique cartridge that comes with its own set of issues, like recoil, noise, cost, or anything else.
P90, 60k PSI 5.7 rounds, non-simple blowback.
>>61442418300 blk is fine out of a 7 inch barrel and it's shockingly cheap these days, as cheap or cheaper than .308, I'd rather have that than an SMG. I wouldn't want it on my hip, but It'd be more than fine on a sling or in a bag.
>>61442736See >>61439695The issue with getting a cartridge that small up to that pressure is getting a new propellant that doesn't have a ridiculous pressure spike but is still able to generate those pressures. NC/NG is probably out unless you upped the ratio of NG to something approaching gelignite and that has problems with long-term stability when it starts sweating the NG. You might try running a little rich on the NG and mixing in some aluminum to soak up the spare oxygens or 1-amino-3-nitroguanadine nitrate and a good stabilizer because that's at least oxygen balanced. Possibly a mix of NG, cyclonite, and TNT with a paraffin stabilizer could work. This is just me spitballing, I haven't crunched any of the numbers yet.
>>61442798Then a 10.5 inch or shorter AR pattern SBR is your best bet. .300BLK can be reasonably quiet, so it's not a bad choice.
>>61432753I'm waiting for them to make an 8.6 micron desu
>>61443232Meme gun in an even memeier caliberBased and gunsaretoyspilled.
>>61442418>No one wants to carry a 15" long carbine on their hip all day. >That sounds utterly terrible and completely unergonomic. Even the biggest meme handcannons like the Deagle aren't that big. Picrel is a 20" OAL lower ~4 lbs. I can move however I want, get in and out of my car with no problem and without adjusting it, and don't bump my arm on it when I walk. Tethering it down to my lower quad (like a drop leg holster), it perfectly follows the motion of my femur like it's hardly there. I would have zero issue walking around with something this size and weight all day, much less something 5" shorter with a less goofy form factor.>a 10.5" AR can be kept in a truck door just fine or stored elsewhere conveniently. And are very easy to shoot. Or you can have that capability in a gun you don't have to store off your person. There's no reason not to just have a full-sized rifle or even an LMG in your vehicle if you're not going to carry it.>PDWs are made for people at home, for whom 9mm is a pretty good choice for home defenseYou're not going to convince anyone here that you're better off with 9mm when you can opt for a rifle cartridge. The unanimous consensus is that pistol rounds are a compromise of trading lethality for concealability.>9mm is soft shootingNot compared to most intermediate rifles>doesn't blow out your ears from a short barrelEvery gun "blows out your ears" if fired unsuppressed. 9mm to 12 gauge all fuck your ears up for a few hours if you have to fire them without earpro. The difference is marginal.>effective at killing or maiming human targetsIt's actually at the bare minimum of acceptable lethality.>There's no need for a boutique cartridge that comes with its own set of issues, like recoil, noise, cost, or anything else.The US Army just adopted a "boutique cartridge" that has all of those issues.
>>61432436i'd kill to even get an airsoft version at non highway robbery prices. Real shame more games don't include it, was really fun in BF3&4
I like to make a silent takedown
>>61443718>goofy curved mag that holds like 15 rounds and ensures you have the worst grip imaginable>unusable slide release>Itty bitty trigger guard with even less space for the rest of your fingers, requiring a very specific motion to just put it in your fucking handI think this is the worst handgun design in the world.
No PDW has ever beaten the Bushmaster ARM at being a pdw. Wicked fast 5.56 on demand from a barrel only slightly further from the firing hand than a magnum revolver, and an offset magazine acting as an arm brace.
>>61444394It would be really nice if you could put it in your fuckin shoulder.
