Now the recent drone warfare has brought back anti-air guns from their long sleep, which calibre fits best for the job? Also, does size matter in this case?
RETVRN TO TRADITION
>>61450208>does size matter in this caseNo FPV drones are made out of carbon fiber that a .22lr would shatter into a million pieces if it got a proper hit>Which calibre fits best for the jobModern grape shot
>>61450233Can I buy that powder? I want to fuck around with large rod gunpowder.
>>61450208so glad we are gonna get more shorad /K/ino
But we never left.
>>61450208Drones will adopt jet engines and again be too fast for gun-based AAs. Hobbyist jet engines are available for cheap. The current use of prop engines is because they are cheaper than jet engines.
>>61450208Gatling guns with 1 million rounds of 22LR.
>>61450587The current use of prop engines is because instant electric motor torque is how a drone can stay levelJet engine thrust does not have enough throttle response time for quads
>>61450552>30mmabsolutely heretic
Tunguska loveOto malera loveGepard loveBofors love45 mm COMVAT love
>>61450316NoAlso tanks use a triple-base gunpowder thats got a much higher explosive velocity than normal smokeless powder, this is what happens when you use artillery ammo in regular guns
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=294ziJLa8wQ
>>61450208those big ass flak guns from ww2
rheinmetall has a turret with programmable 35mm airburst ammo for shooting down drones.
>>61451755
>>61450607they'll do fine for small fixed wing FPV size drones but since that sort of thing basically doesn't exist at the moment it's hard to tell if it would be better at hitting a dodging target. it certainly wouldn't be able to chase some poor fuck around and around a tree until he trips.
>>61451823I love this
>>61450316This guy sells surplus powder when in stock, but large caliber burn rates are very fucky with small arms.https://www.gibrass.com/gunpowder.html
>>61450542I just realized: Because of the Russo-Ukrainian war, we've seen the return of virtually every Soviet armored vehicle since the 1950's to the battlefield, but I can't recall seeing ANY footage of a Shilka in action! Photos, yes, a bit, but nothing of them in action, which is weird when you consider the drone/air threat.
>>61451893I think we've gotten some clips of them being used against some light ground forces
>>61451840Frankly small fixed wing aircraft will never compete with high end racing drones at anything more than top speedPicrel is a high end turbojet for RC aircraft, it produces 10 pounds of thrust and weighs 1.1 pounds (~500G), while costing 1,800 USDIn comparison a high-end 7 inch quad motor (a Supernova 2807, for specifics) produces 5.6 pounds of thrust (22.4lbf because you'll need 4), weigh 47 grams (188, you'll need 4), costs 33 dollars (132, you'll need 4)For minimum specs comparison, jet VS DC motor you get>10lb thrust vs 22.4lb thrust>500g vs 188g>1800 USD vs 132 USDAs fun as it would be playing IRL War Thunder CAS with Saab 105 recreation using CCIP hand grenades, turbo jets dont produce enough thrust to compete with DC motors at small sizes
>>61451944that's all true.but a jet runs on fuel, not batteries. and it's going to be a long time before a battery is going to hold even half as much energy as gasoline. even accounting for the jet being much less efficient.
>>61451960Battery energy density doesnt matter much except loiter time, its very easy to outrun the 5~ mile radio signal range for FPV goggles before your battery runs out, even with heavy loads like an RPG warheadIn fact the Racing/Suicide drones you see carrying these RPG warheads even use LiPo instead of Li-Ion batteries - LiPo has even lower energy density than Li-Ion, but can discharge higher voltage for higher motor performanceSmall drones that fill the loiter time gap already exist as well, Orlan-10 and ScanEagle
>>61451893>which is weird when you consider the drone/air threat.Why is it weird? Shilka and Tunguska are shit at AA job
>>61451960These miniature turbojets have relatively poor SFC for their thrust rating. So endurance isn't great.
>>6145175557 naval smart rounds r the future not this poopifvs will not be 40 or 30 or 25mm anymore BUT 57!!!! https://youtu.be/rldn9Hvzih4?t=14
>>61452135>each round costs more than the target it destroysyeah, nah
>>61450208I create a squad of electric powered red barons.
>>61450542>>61450208aa dedicated vehicles will never be purposeful again.probably will just be Boxer IFV with targeting for drones role too. i assume tanks and ifvs will both have secondary gun systems which can repell both drones and infantry>>61452135How small would a gun have to be to effectively hardkill drones?
>>61451985>Shilka and Tunguska are shit at AA jobsays who? your aching behind?
>>61450208>>61450221>>61450233>>61450542>>61451893>>61451983>>61452135>>61452154>>61452163
>>61452163I figure that it will be more akin to an active protection system, but scaled towards being more budget friendly. Mount that on most every tank and IFV should allow armored vehicles to create drone no-fly zones and keep their supporting infantry safe.I do sort of wonder if such a system would accidentally splatter every songbird along the frontline though?
>>61452183https://youtu.be/gG-i-Rx6RII?t=39vid shows stormer HMV being destroyed by lancettargeting systems have not caught up with dronesthey do not existthey are not autonomous or fast enough there is no technology or weapon system that is an APS for drones
>>61452210>>61452230>>61452183>>61452163>>61451755https://www.msi-dsl.com/products/msi-ds-terrahawk-vshorad/read it and weep
>>61452230The Stormer doesn't have a stand alone radar, its effectively a stack of Starstreak shoulder-launched ATGMS put on a tractor >there is no technology or weapon system that is an APS for dronesTrophy APS has a .3s reaction time and can hit RPG-7s out of the air traveling at 657MPH, plenty of reaction time for a 172MPH droneBtw this specific layout of racing drone is designed for straight-line speed with no payload, the suicide drones Ukraine is using top out around 75MPH
>>61451893Yeah I love the original operation flashpoint game so this war has been a dream for me. With all due respect to the Ukrainians on this board of course.
>>61452269>trophy aps>run out of ammo>dietrophy aps useless against top down attack aswellnew aps must be made
>>61452289>trophy aps useless against top down attack aswellAmerica said otherwise when they bought it>run out of ammoThey've got 12 shots each you can get out of an FPV operators range before they can send 12 drones at you
>>61452306do you mean they actually said otherwise or are you saying it as a metaphor because they bought so that must mean its impenetrable to top down attack
>>61452377Did you think Israel fighting in urban warfare central designed an APS that can only fire sideways?
>>61450552>>61451755>>61451823>>61452256>30mmWhy do they think this is adequate enough? You obviously need more firepower than that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRE3HY0IRGY
I wonder what it would take to mount a Mk 110 57mm onto a ground vehicle. Would recoil be too much and result in something too heavy? Imagine these things with smart sabot rounds able to strike 5+ km away accurately with only 1 or 2 shots needed, and can also defeat other armored vehicles at range. In any case, the main challenge with these things being effective in the modern battlefield is their sensor tech and data networking. It has to be cost-effective because no one is going to put a 20 million dollar high-end radar system onto a flak vehicle.
>>61452405Looks adequate enough to me.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdwjcayPuag
>>61452436>Looks adequate enough to me.>bludgeon people into believing company propagandaNo, thank you.
If I were to build an AA gun with drones in mind it'd be a dual weapon system. Use a single barrel 20mm cannon with a respectable but conservative fire rate and airbursting rounds for things in the shahed size range and a mini CIWS/CRAM type gun made to fire 3 1/2" full brass 12 gauge shotgun shells loaded with a good diameter shot to get plenty of pellets in the air and still have the oomph required to down things like FPVs and lancets before it's too late. 20mm ought to handle any drone threat out there while the shotgun minigun can vomit out a wall of lead and steel shot at smaller drone threats and possibly even incoming missiles. The system would also be plenty effective against helicopters, low flying fixed wing aircraft, light vehicles, and infantry. If necessary though it could be made/modified use a 30mm M-230 as long as it can fire the necessary airbursting rounds. Honestly though, I think 30mm is excessive for this. Anything legitimately worthy of 30 is probably better dealt with by a missile.Both guns generally radar guided with two radars present. A large proper system you'd expect for a SPAAG, and a smaller system that's basically something along the lines of a modified small nautical radar. I'd also integrate something along the lines of the Sky360 camera system. That would give the gun the ability to exclusively rely on that if anti-radar missiles are a big risk and still be able to quickly detect and engage threats. Allow a battery to network wirelessly or via cable between guns and other batteries for faster and more accurate data analysis due to multiple camera systems working together potentially over a much wider area. Running silent would also allow more effective AA ambushing.Goal would be an effective system that can be mounted to vehicles, ships, towers, etc or set up as mobile systems like >>61452405 that is capable of effective operation regardless of if it's solo or a battery of several systems.
>>61452405it's 35mm and yes the programmable amo just turn everything to mush
>>61451755Finally germany has caught up with 1990s swedish technology.
>>61452676>drones move bunched upVery realistic, Anon.
>>61452705> what is a test range
>>61452752>test>meant only to be used for demonstration purposesVery impressive indeed.
>>61452676>>61452705Also, why is it shaking left and right?
>>61452772because it's on a truck and it's firing at 1000 rpm ... ? sound crazy if you never get out of your room but tiers and suspension tend to compress and bounce when subjected to pressure and vibrations, same thing can be seen on literally any truck mounted gun platform the difference here is that the gun is actually compensating for this if you look closely
>>61451893Probably because their radar is too shit to pick up or target drone sized targets.Upgrading those things to make them useful again should have been top priority, but I guess Russia prefers to do Russia things.
>>61450208I love Tatra 8x8 artillery, so let's embrace the mantra that there are just two units on the battlefield - Artillery and Targets - by doing one in a common naval dual-purpose caliber, 76mm or 127mm. In this age of open vehicle systems architecture, integrating a proven chassis with existing hangar-compatible turrets is low risk, high return and ready to meet emerging threats. It's time for STROP III.
>>61452418Entirely doable, the SpH DANA family uses 152/155mm, both heavier and more energetic. And thanks to modern networked sensors, it's possible to have just 1-2 radar vehicles per battery instead of integrating recoil-resistant sets on every gun.
>>61450655>>61452405>30mm35mm
>>61452163streetshitter opinion discarded
>>61452755>not testing my weapons make them superior
>>61450655>>61452405Over half a ton lighter because of 30mm and 30mm ammunition, the same vehicle.40mm is a meme, they only put it on the CV90 because they had shitfuck of them in stock.30mm offers comparable lethality, same programmable options, better feeding system, and lighter.It's the current year boomers, not WW2 anymore.
>>6145290640mm has way bigger radius of effect and a modern programmable version of CTAS would be killerit's at >57mm where the tradeoffs really start becoming disproportionate for land vehicles, which is why only the Russians were retarded enough to prototype it
>>61452902>>not testing my weapons make them superiorNo one said that but anyways it sucks that no one cares about puny demo stunts done at a point blank range.
>>61450208Sure, but make them looking cool too
>>61452906>40mm is a memeBeing able to deliver a 800g projectile at a muzzle velocity of 1100m/s is no joke. >It's the current year boomers, not WW2 anymore.40mm is still widely used across western countries especially as a naval gun.
>>61453020>demo stunts done at a point blank range.the point of that test was probably to validate the shell, not the FCS
>>61452289>>61452306I don't know how much the counter-munition costs for an APS system, but I'd wager that they're expensive and overkill for engaging a drone. I suspect that you'd want a secondary anti-drone turret that's equipped with buckshot or some kind of cheaper counter-munition that can be carried in greater quantities for anti-drone work. I'm assuming that the sensors of existing APS systems are up to the task of tracking incoming drones and that they're not specialized in a way that they can only detect high speed targets.I honestly don't know much about the topic of APS systems. It just sounds to me like intercepting an ATGM is a much harder task than intercepting a drone, and that development of an anti-drone APS system sounds like a reasonable solution either as a standalone solution or something to be integrated alongside existing APS systems that will reserve their more advanced counter-munitions for higher threats.
>>61454154>but I'd wager that they're expensive and overkill for engaging a droneSo that's the cope ? "-The drone cost less than what's killing it ?"Your average MBT costs about 10 millions USD.How much is too much for interception cost ?
>>61451893We got some footage of them used in the first few months, mainly against ground targets.It seems that their fire control and radar (do they even have radar?) is too shit to be used as anti air.
>>61454154It's far easier to intercept fast movers because nothing in nature goes mach .8You have drones moving the same size and speed as birds, how is some shitty military radar going to recognize that
>>61451893those use dumb munitions designed to take down choppers and such - so you need to actually directly hit a drone - and that's not really easy when you cant program those rounds to explode in vicnity and spray fragments everywhere...
>>61452977show me a 40mm gun with a 1000 rpm the rheinmetall skyshield does it with 35mm
>>61451383>Quad cannon>Not the Chad Octo Cannonngmi
>>61454498>rpm cultistone shot one kill, chud
>>61454770Which is why it should be 120mm airburst roundsNo reason why an Abrams can't be redesigned to be able to elevate guns to 90 degrees
>>61452154Anon... Do you know what an amm is?
>>61451755that failure shit shootz whole ammunition container attacking a drone which released aluminum foil strips container. fuckers wasted 200 000 dollars against 100 dollars aliexpress drone with 1 dollar aluminium foil..
>>61454154TROPHY and Iron Fist both use explosively formed penetrators (EFPS), these are effectively the exact same thing as an RPG warhead, theres no reason to believe they would be more expensive to shoot than the explosives these drones are carryingThe expensive bits are AESA radars but thats multi-use as long as your tank doesnt get blown up
>>61454586The ring mount with the ammo going through it is kind of clever.
>>61454586What the actual fuck.
>>61454498>muh rate of fireIt's meaningless in the era of precision weapons. Besides, an ordinary 40mm L/70 already has a rate of fire of 375r/min which already equals that of a machine gun. The amount of explosives per round is more important, which is why the US military is seeking 50mm instead of 35mm.
>>61454154>Your average MBT costs about 10 millions USD.>TROPHY and Iron Fist both use explosively formed penetrators (EFPS), these are effectively the exact same thing as an RPG warhead, theres no reason to believe they would be more expensive to shoot than the explosives these drones are carryingI'm sorry, I wasn't thinking about the tank killer drones. I was referring to the drones featured in all of the drone-gore videos where random infantry in ditches and fields are being chased around by FPV suicide drones or hit with fragmentation grenades/mortars. I'm envisioning supporting armor providing a defensive umbrella to protect infantry from such attacks. I figure that cost savings matter since the enemy just needs to pay for the cost to make a strike while you need to extend defenses everywhere, so even small savings add up to a lot at scale.>>61454303>It's far easier to intercept fast movers because nothing in nature goes mach .8It's far easier to identify it as a threat vs something natural, but I suspect that the equipment necessary to calculate and successfully perform an intercept is harder with less tolerance for error. I think it's worth noting that you do have more time to assess a potential target to determine if it's a bird or a drone since it's not coming right at you at mach 0.8. Push comes to shove, fuck the birds.
>>61452155Why do reenactors use small scale reproduction planes?
>>61451339Who said I was gonna put it in a gun?
>>61456860It's 4 dual 23mm AA guns put on a pretty clever towed mount then radar automated, 4 ZU-23-2s. Consider: 400rpm per barrel, 8 barrels per gun 6 guns per battery=19,200 rpm. Total low level air defense is within your grasp!**19200x$25 per round=$480,000 per minute. Please consult your Finance Minister before choosing to defend targeted location. Government of North Korea not responsible for results of helping to develop this weapon. All sales final.
>>61454586>>61456860>>61457858Ironically would probably be amazing at shooting down their own drones.
>>61452269>The Stormer doesn't have a stand alone radarThat's cause a lot of the west realized search radar is just painting a giant target on your anti air capabilities for anyone with decent anti radiation missiles, so they are abandoning search radar for passive IRST. It's classified, so take it with a grain of salt, but the stormer supposedly has a really good IRST system.
>>61456443Is this thirdie ESL zigger talking about the blatantly fake "destroyed skyranger"?
>>61454253>Your average MBT costs about 10 millions USD.Try thirty million. At least.
>>61450603Is there a round that’s effectively just birdshot but longer range? I don’t know how high these drones fly but any well placed pistol round would rip a drone to shreds. It’s not like they have armor or some shit.
>>61450603Tungsten .17 Mach2/HMR would be good to 300-400 meters and be a useful anti infantry weapon..9mm flobert with a pinched neck and tungsten #b shot would work at 100 meters or less, less range but better up close.Both would require a tiny minigun because misfires would require powered extraction. Besides the 9mm flobert you would be lucky that you can carry tens of thousands of rounds as the troops would fire them at anything that moves.Honestly even 9mm flobert firing tungsten bbs out of a gattling gun with teflon smooth bore barrels should keep anything within 100 meters suppressed.
>>61458162See:>>61458400https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Nicolas_FlobertMake it with a crimped neck like 7.62 Nagant, use 3.5mm-4mm tungsten shot. Fire from a 3 barrel teflon lined minigun. They would be effective to 100 meters where they would destroy a drone or do 2-3 inches of soft tissue penetration or 1-2 after clothing.36 pellets per round out of a smooth bore at 6000 rpm, its 2160 projectiles per second. They are weak and useless past a few hundred feet but there is alot of them, a 10 second burst would be a hail of 21,600 bbs.
>>61451755Wotan is outright superior to Bofors I agree.
>>61452755>>61452752Right like WTF? You need to see what the radius is.
>>61458016IRST is pretty useless without a very robust automated pattern recognition AI. If you don't automate it, you just have an enhanced version of the mk 1 eyeball. Not to mention that radar can simultanously cover all azimuths, whereas it's a lot more difficult to do that with IRST. Hence why a lot of the latest anti-drone set-ups use 4x "ribbed tuna can" AESA mini-radars for search, and IRST only for tracking.
>>61459104You need to look into IRST again, the newer stuff is damn near as good as radar, albeit with shorter range. The IRST on the Gripen is supposedly able to detect other aircraft out to around 40km. Considering a starstreak only has a range of about 8-10km, IRST is fine.And you don't need AI for a scanning IRST, just someone who can look at a screen when the system alerts that it detected something. Biggest downside of IRST is weather, clouds, rain, fog, smoke and dust are all going to reduce it's capabilities. Short range radar is still the best bet for anti drone, as it's cheaper and easier to deploy in mass, but against an actual capable military (not russia) running radar in a combat situation is painting a giant target on your back.
>>61462341>able to detectnobody said otherwiseability to detect is not the same as speed of scanning and identification however>just someone who can look at a screen when the system alerts that it detected somethinghave fun spending all your time poring through hundreds of false positives
>>61462355>have fun spending all your time poring through hundreds of false positivesNo different than existing radar. All the rules that apply to refining radar data transfer over to IRSTAnd IRST isn't any slower than radar for searching. See that ball on top of the missile launcher? That's the IRST search mechanism, little fucker spins around a a couple hundred RPM scanning the skies.Like I've said before, radar is the better choice if you don't have to worry about shit like AGM-88's. If your enemy is competent though, a passive system is the safer choice.
>>61462536forget image
>>61462536you're missing the point, which is that>you don't need AI for a scanning IRST, just someone who can look at a screenis 70s era tech; yes, you do in fact NEED digital signals processing to identify BOTH radar and infrared returns in time to engage the enemy before he engages you
>>61452687Nigger how the fuck did you forget about the Gepard from the 80s?
>>61462603>you do in fact NEED digital signals processing to identify BOTH radar and infrared returns in time to engage the enemy before he engages youAnd you missed the part where I said their is little difference in the processing needed between radar and IRST, I would put money on the code for IRST processing just being modified radar processing code. And it doesn't require AI, this shit has been figured out digitally for decades.
>>61457914The thing has only impact fused rounds, Zsu-23s are shit and have been shit for quite a while now, no matter how many you string together
>>61452676They should mount it on a tank chassis, looks bit fragile on the track.
>>61452183hurr durr lasers are le cool
>>61452793Even if you updated the radars, that 23mm is too small for airburst fuses. You'd need to be landing direct hits.
>>61451893I think in mid 2023 we got a footage of it being used by Ukrainians against Russian ground forces in Zaporizhzhia. The footage was even more unusual because the operator was a young woman, which spawned a lot of coomer posting. Hope she's alright. Probably not tho.
>>61463012>you missed the part where I said their is little difference in the processing needed between radar and IRSTnobody said that was a problemyou're chasing up the wrong tree
>>61463463Sheeds are regularly shot down with manually aimed ZU-23-2s in Ukraine, the idea that a automated ZU-23-8 couldn't is utterly fucking moronic.>>61463766>You'd need to be landing direct hits.Which happens on a daily basis, Iranian drones get hit by small arms all the time.
>>61450208R E T V R Nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KsXYK_CNoQ
would the 35mm Skyranger with AHEAD rounds be able to shoot down 155mm artillery shells or 120mm mortar rounds?
>ITT nobody realizes that lasers are the future
>>61450607Well not as the hover propulsion, but for speed
>>61451960Why not hydrogen powered drones? Doesn’t even need to be liquid hydrogen either at that small scale
>>61469513An unironically good weapon, when remote-power-controlled via radar director, and updated with HV munitions. It had an absolutely gargantuan amount of ready ammo compared to its contemporaries, being the only medium AA gun which could continuously shoot over a minute using only its internal stores. Only issue was its immense size and weight. The octuple RPC mount (the design with the highest to-hit efficiency and ammo capacity) was roughly the same weight as a twin 4-inch turret.
>>61452705If it can kill multiple drones that are bunched up, it can kill a single drone that's by itself.
>>61456443>Dumps chaff>Which increases the overall radar return of the immediate vicinity around the target>To defend against a radar-directed gun>Which fires airburst shells that are designed to fill the immediate vicinity around the target with a cloud of fragments>Shells with time-delayed fuses that aren't affected by radar countermeasuresCongratulations, you done played yourself.
>>61458162
The boys are back in town.
>>61466622So you don't in fact need >automated pattern recognition AIBecause the exact same task can already be done by decades old electronics.
>>61450208I like rapid fire 35mm Oerlikon with radar for early detection and optronic target tracking.
>>61474118this needs a larger gas tank thus larger fuselage in order to make it worth using it.something like a shahed grade fixed wing drone
>>61451893>ShilkaUkies reported it is pretty much useless against anything that isn't a yuuuuge helicopter that rises over the hill, Hollywood style, right next to you.iirc they had some radar upgrade in the pipe before the war, but that fell to the wayside.
