So these are a giant flop apparently? On top of it all it seems all the sellers are having “trouble” fulfilling orders. Bullshit, more like these faggots are drop shipping Ukrainian sloppy seconds in an attempt to smash and grab some cash from all of us. I just requested a refund through PayPal and will hit up ole navy fed and request a charge back if that don’t work. Probably would’ve said fuck it and rolled with it if the faggots I made the purchase with would’ve send me a confirmation email or fucking ANYTHING upon purchase to let me know that shit was processing.
>>62910354Buy Hoplite. The owner named the jew.
>>62910354Apparently they're an attempt to get quick money from a stock of cheap materials, with little to no QC to increase the profit margin. Buffman supposedly tested a couple from this new batch and they failed pretty badly, vids supposed to be up next week. Didn't think Highcom would stoop to "reintroducing" a 20 year old plate, and dangerously cheap out on both materials and QC at the same time, but here we are.
>>62910386why does everything have a catch in this gay world?
There's a number of theories discussed in the /gq/ thread.1. Ukraine wrote up a very poor set of design requirements, and either due to grift or just a plain lack of funding was unable to procure even 4SAS7s so Highcom had to pull a 20 year old design out of retirement.2. Highcom joined the dark side of sketchy armor manufacturers and relabeled 20 year old plates from a warehouse somewhere with 2024 date-of-manufacture stickers for the Ukraine contract, hence why they're underperforming.3. There is no contract and this whole thing was an excuse for Highcom to pass off rejected materials as super-cheap plates.I personally favor theory #1 but we won't know for sure until this actually blows up. Theory #2 is starting to look persuasive. If Buffman would release the video now instead of delaying it behind his Patreon or whatever then that would actually put a fire under Highcom's ass about these.I feel like these are going to "sell out" soon, get dropped from everyone's websites, and the Buffman video will release after the damage is already done. Highcom has enough time to run a statement by the legal team and somebody will get thrown under the bus. The notoriously shady armor industry goes on.
>>62910402There's some speculation that they're being made out of 4SAS7 components that failed QC checks. If that's the case they're effectively pistol-threat only, like a mystery Chinesium plate. Kind of sad that Highcom would fall like this, but as they say, no free lunches.
>>62910446An explanation for this is that, per an anon several /gq/ threads ago, Highcom Limited (formerly Xtek) is actually losing money. Their stock is trading at a mere fraction of what it was at in 2020 (0.85 AUD vs 0.16 now). Their books could be in really fuckin' bad shape and they're pulling last ditch bullshit like this to stay afloat. I think that might be the prevailing theory so far.
>>62910435#1 makes no sense. "Give us the worst armor you can possibly make! It has to be made out of the cheapest materials, and don't forget the fiberglass. Oh, and we don't really care about ballistics."Like what design requirement could they POSSIBLY write that would get them the 4SAS4 when everybody already knows how to make decent Level IV plates to 0101.06? "They need to cost $20/ea and be made in America?" Why the fuck would Highcom even comply with that? Are they RETARDED?
>>62910360what did he call him?
>>62910493That actually makes a lot of sense. Desperate people do shady as fuck shit.
>>62910497As I mentioned over in /gq/, I've conceded theory #1. It was the first one that popped to mind since Highcom had previously been an extremely honorable armor company. Even in the face of Hesco and RMA having frequent FIT failures, Highcom has never had a suspension except for one soft armor panel a while ago, which was promptly resolved.They used to, again, for two decades be a reliable standby in the armor industry. That's why I hesitated on the other theories, which unfortunately given Highcom's evidentially shitty financial status are looking more plausible than #1.
>>629104971 makes perfect sense they specify a bunch of shit but forget to mention something that should be obvious. they make a product that meets the specifications. but fails that thing they didnt explicitly point outsee sig 320s being dropsafe.well nothing said it had to be dropsafe
>>62910523So lemme get this straight. This scenario goes like this:> Ukrainians: We need low-cost Level IV plates> Highcom: We've got them! (Heh heh, they didn't specify 0101.06. We'll sell them the 20 year old 4SAS4 and save $1 on a few layers of foam and fiberglass. Profit! Penny stock go up!)> Ukrainians: WTF?! These plates fucking suck! We don't want them.> Highcom: Damn, uh, "Tacticalshit", we have a containerload of plates that were, uh, made for a Ukrainian contract. Want to sell them for $99? Don't worry nobody will ever shoot them. Is this what you're saying? lol, would make a funny slapstick comedy movie like War Dogs
>>62910523I'm the guy that came up with theory #1, and I'm now going to argue against it.1. Ukraine has been burned by shitty armor companies before. Hyperion, for example, sold plates to them that apparently never worked to begin with.2. Because Ukraine has been burned before, in 2016-2020 no less, they should know how to write a decent contract by now. 3. 0101.06 is the current NIJ standard, including the drop test that Buffman simulated and the 4SAS4 apparently mega-bombed, causing the failures. If the contract is at fault, Ukraine would have had to deliberately select 0101.04 - so they're not forgetting to mention anything.4. The 4SAS4 is an extremely old design Highcom brought out of the graveyard. It precedes the 4SAS7. Why did Highcom pull a 20+ year old design out of the graveyard for this? If Ukraine was sloppy or grifty they would have selected the 4SAS7 off-the-shelf (and grifted the cash that way off the top of what should have been 4S17Ms) and this wouldn't have happened.Either Ukraine specified the 4SAS4 for an unknown reason, which makes no sense since it's barely cheaper than the 4SAS7 under bulk pricing, or Highcom pulled together some graveyard plates using either old or reject materials and is selling them off to stay afloat. I used to think the former but anons have persuaded me to the latter. We won't know for sure until more info is out. We're all just theorizing right now.
As an addendum to 62910548, it is worth noting that the 4SAS7 was not certified under 0101.06 either. However, unlike the "4SAS4", the 4SAS7 has seen more than a decade of reliable use in recent memory. If it's the absence of drop protection foam, by itself, that caused the Buffman test failure on the 4SAS4, then we should have heard about 4SAS7 test failures from other people in the 15+ years the 4SAS7 has been around. Somehow the 4SAS4 is defective in more ways than just drop durability. I think it's underbuilt and is built to bare-minimum spec, at most.
>>62910568Substandard/QC-failed materials are another possibility, and would explain the ridiculous defectiveness as well, especially in conjunction to extreme underbuilding. Highcom is in such desperately bad financial circumstances that all of the above seem plausible.
>>62910543The vast majority of plates sold in the domestic US market go their entire life without being shot, youtube testers like Buffman aside. I can see the angle for Highcom possibly knowing the plates were defective and offloading them to some upstart. Buffman really shouldn't be stalling the video release given how much of a concern this is. It's odd to me that OP is saying the sellers are having trouble filling orders for the 4SAS4 right when teasers of the Buffman test are coming around. What happens next week when the video comes out? They're all conveniently out of stock and the 4SAS4 pulls an RMA 1145 and vanishes from everybody's site? I'm not insinuating Buffman has an angle on this, other than his Patreon subscribers getting videos early, but the timing is nonetheless a little convenient if what OP says is true.
>>62910578I agree. If it turns out Highcom is offloading defective materials as armor this could finish them as a company, especially if they were really intended for Ukrainian military. Real shitty move, honestly. What's the budget armor sector going to turn into, a three-way pissing match between RMA, Hesco, and Militech? Yikes.
>>62910586Literally everything about this "Ukraine contract overrun sale" is so weird and fucked up that it's really quite likely to end in lawsuits (class action and otherwise), mainstream media attention, and a shitstorm for the ages. Archive the Buffman video as soon as it comes out, because Highcom might pull an American Blast and send him a cease and desist.
This is a bad look for the armor industry in general. This is speculation, but I doubt the 4SAS4s are the first instance of Highcom cheaping out. If anyone has 4SAS7s, 4S17Ms, or 4S16s I'd be cautious about whether they meet spec. They can't be randomly deciding to just cheap out now, right? It's such a spontaneous face-heel turn and they've been having financial issues for a while.
>>62910610The uproar will be even bigger if that happens. That said, what will the defective 4SAS4s actually stop? I'm guessing they'll be like overbuilt IIIA/HG3 equivalent.
>>62910360>all you have to do to get me to buy your things is say shit that i say
>>62910598Galaxybrain move: Botach Battle Steel/LAPG. Because if you're going to go Chinesium, you might as well go all the way.
>>62910663I wouldn't even bet on that. The problem is that IIIA is a six hit requirement against .44 Magnum and the 4SAS4 is only required to stop one hit of a much more powerful .30-06 M2AP. Being a Level IV, the 4SAS4 is not required to pass the III, IIIA, or even II or IIA six-hit tests. The fundamental problem with the 4SAS4 is that the strike face is fragile and will crack easily. The backer is antiquated fiberglass, so if the strike face is compromised by a drop test or prior hits, you're basically trusting fiberglass to handle the threats.It might honestly fall either into an SRT category or maybe Level II, but that's pointless outside of academic discussion because it's a seven pound plate and running it as pistol armor is... goofy.>>62910752Judging by what we know so far, the LAPG Level IV is actually more than comparable to the 4SAS4. If the video turns out the way Buffman's comments on reddit are implying it will, AR500 is going to be doing fuckin' jumping jacks now that they have video proof that CERAMICS ARE FRAGILE AND FAIL IF YOU DON'T TREAT THEM LIKE FINE CHINA. Ridiculous.
>>62911218The LAPG plate has a cheat-ring, but the central portion is very robust and it has a thick PE backer. It's ackshually a very strong plate. The 4SAS4 is a joke in comparison, and I don't trust the 4SAS7 either. Fuck.
>>62911218I'm just curious as to what level of protection those who didn't get the memo on the defective new 4SAS4 will have. Like if the night goes bump and they toss on those plates, would the usual home invasion robber have them dead to rights or do they have some protection from a rusty Hi-Point or switched-up Poly80, assuming the usual calibers of 9mm, .40, or .45?
>>62912548Whatever level of protection it can offer is greatly below what a 7.4lb plate should be capable of. Replace immediately with something better. Hesco 4403MC looks to be the best budget Level IV option right now. However, those calibers you listed can all be handled with IIIA. Investigate good certified IIIA on the CPL too. Stealth Armor Systems has some certed budget IIIA. The company has some weird history (inventor of DragonSkin is the CEO) but the certs stand.>>62912308If Highcom is using reject materials in the 4SAS4, I am going to operate under the assumption all of their other non-certified plates are also now compromised, that includes - sadly - the industry legend 4SAS7. They aren't subject to FIT tests, so there's no opportunity for them to be suspended for failures. Anything below 0101.06 is not required to pass the drop test and be subject to FIT tests as of 2024. Shop replacement armor accordingly.
>>62913276I didn't buy any of the 4SAS4s myself. I'm fully aware they can't be relied on (especially the ceramic holy shit it's trash) and need immediate replacement, but am curious as to how strong their fiberglass backer actually is, since I've got some fiberglass UL 752 Level 1 building/vehicle armor plates that'll stop 9mm by themselves. Let's try another scenario: Gangbanger finds some of these 4SAS4s in a dumpster, doesn't know they're defective, and tries robbing my place with them on, since homie thinks they make him look cool/scary. Will one of my handguns suffice to deal with his stupid ass, or should I get my AR with M855 out?
>>62914069Since the plates are in a dumpster, I will assume they've already been drop "conditioned" so to speak and are in condition similar to the Buffman test.The fiberglass backer is not the component that fractures because of a drop test. It will still be in decent condition. When dealing with armor you never want to pull punches. Get the AR with the M855 out. If you get three hits in on the plate, the compromised ceramic should give and at least one of the M855 should have no trouble putting a hole in the fiberglass. Closer the impacts are to one another, the harder it is for the plate to stop them. You have a lot more energy coming out of a rifle, that's all the more energy going into fracturing the strike face. Don't short yourself with a handgun if you have a rifle on deck. I don't like the prospects of pistol terminal ballistics after getting through armor.If you can get some M995 black tip out of a 16" or preferably 20" barrel, that'll no sell the plate likely even in mint condition. Honestly, since armor is only going to get cheaper from here on out, everyone should have a stock of WC-core AP ammunition prepped. Armored home invaders are unheard of now, but that's liable to change. A cheapo airsoft vest and two 4SAS4s are the same price as two hi points and a box or two of 9mm. That's not a big investment.
>>62914322Fair enough. I wonder if my 10mm G20SF will do the trick, especially with the Norma NXD lead-free screwdrivers at 1700+ fps I got. I've also got some Liberty Overwatch at 2100+ fps but those are fragmenting hollow bullets. It's a lot easier to grab my Glock than my AR with the way my gun cases are arranged, and due to CA I can't realistically get anything more penetrating for the AR than M855.
>>62914394End of the day, you're up against dubious Level IV. Pistol ammunition of any stripe is not ideal. Since Level IV plates are only required to stop one round, albeit a very good steel-core .30-06 M2AP, use non-AP rifle ammunition to fracture the strike face so only the fiberglass can contest your rounds. You shouldn't need more than three in a close 2" circle. You would need to "dig through" with lower-powered pistol rounds, even 10mm. Either that, or aim for the pelvis and femoral arteries. Maybe look into a shotgun with 00 buck and a "spreader" choke so you have meaningful spread at HD distance. Slugs could delaminate the layers but won't brute force the armor unless they're AP (hardened steel or WC).
>>62914644Apparently it has a very thin and low quality fiberglass backer. I think that a glock with a switch would manage to punch through. A few 10mm rounds would probably also do it.
>>62914644I guess I'll have to bank on rapid firing M855 steel tips out of my 16" AR if I run into some 'banger with scavenged 4SAS4s. Sucks, but until the state ammo transfer law gets overturned (fucking 9th circus court), that's the closest to AP I can get. At least M855 will do better against it than M193 out of my barrel length, right?>>62914690Would the cracked/crushed ceramic absorb some of that energy though? I'd need quite a few shots according to >>62914644, and I'm not some hood rat with a switched Poly80 who can just spray and pray.
>>62914709M855 definitely ought to do it. A couple shots and that shit-tier plate is done.
>>62910676Should we support the israel bootlickers instead?
>>62910354>Not labeling /bag/You retarded fucking faggot double-bitch nigger.
Do you guys actually load M855 in your home defense mag, or is this just a hypothetical?
>>62914871What kind of faggot buys greentip?
>>62914787It's not really /bag/ you goof. It's an OP about that particular shit-tier plate and the developing scandal surrounding it.
>>62914771That's good. I've had a mag or two loaded with the stuff since just before the election, just in case someone with cheap Chinesium PE plates went postal in my area. My actual HD load is M193 because that's what I've been able to stack deep here in the big ban state. Got some solid copper BTHPs for home wildlife defense (apparently CA F&G will fine you for using lead bullets on wild animals even in clear cut defensive shoots inside your own fucking home) but I have no idea how they'll work on people.
>>62910354>a pic of body armor>endless rants>no background storyis all this like actually based off an event, did something happen, or is this another schizo motherfucker who forgot their meds and uses 4chan to vent by ranting?
>>62914871I keep it depending on the situation. For HD I'd rather use a lighter higher speed grain for stopping power. LA riots I'd rather have more penetration
>>62915305tl;dr: Highcom is selling off a shitload of ridiculously defective plates, everyone who bought them is trying to chargeback once they found out.
>>62915305/gq/ has the details.Basically, Highcom has been shilling these "contract overrun" plates that were supposedly leftovers from a shipment to Ukraine. They were being sold at $99/plate, which is a very low price for a US-made Level IV plate.Then a very experienced Youtuber tested a pair. The video isn't out yet, but he's already noted that the plates don't stop shit. They're probably the worst "Level IV" plates ever made, worse than the worst Chinesium from wish.com. He also noted that the plates he received have a manufacturing date of Nov 2024.Complicating matters even further, the plate is a 20-year-old design that was brought out of retirement for reasons that nobody understands.So it looks like hundreds of people bought $99 "Level IV" plates that don't work, and the whole "Ukraine contract" thing might have been a scam to convince suckers that the plates are milspec. All in all, it's a scandal.
>>62914709M193 does better against steel, M855 does much better against polyethylene and composite materials like fiberglass. M855A1 will par M193 against steel, but defeat PE and composite / ceramic even better than M855 or M193. M995 will outperform all of those rounds against any armor material, but its terminal (wounding) ballistics are weak. M855A1 is your best general bet that isn't some unobtanium badass ammo like Nammo Powerball. It's strictly gray market though like M995. M193 is a better HD round than M855 against unarmored opponents.The 4SAS4's shit ceramic will run interference the best it can, so you need to sling something with some kind of penetrator to have good odds. M855 is better than M193 there. It has a steel core.>>62914771Agreed. 3 shots in a 2" circle and you're probably getting through the armor. Cheap Level IVs, unless they're fatass "tank plates" like the Hesco 4403MC, suck at multi-hit and crack arresting. Even the RMA 1155 is very questionable.>>62914990M193 does better against steel like AR500, M855 does far better against polyethylene. A ghetto but workable solution is to "candy cane" load M193 and M855 in your HD mags to defeat either material. This is half-ass though and will do you no favors against competent ceramic armor. Even a meh SRT like the Hesco L210 can easily handle either round, and the L211 that replaced it can even handle M855A1. To reliably defeat good ceramic armor with 5.56, you really need M995. It's a real bitch to get, but out of a 16-20" barrel, it can beat even basic Level IV plates that no other common 5.56 load can. Even the earlier milspec ESAPIs (REV. A through F) couldn't handle it at 3,300ft/s (20" barrel).There are loads above M995, like Nammo AP4 / AP45 and the new ADVAP replacing M995, but it is almost impossible to source those. They can handle almost anything below XSAPI, which is the de facto Level V.
>>62910499Synagogue of satan
>>62915602M995 is a III+ threat that isn't much tougher than M855A1. Even back in the day, like 20 years ago, Ceradyne was beating it with 3.9-pound ICW plates. AP4 is no big deal. Even the RMA 1155, the definition of the budget fiberglass plate, has defeated it. I don't think there's a 5.56mm bullet that will reliably defeat good Level IV armor.
>>62915645M995 was not listed under the ESAPI standard until REV. G, so it's able to defeat Level IV-equivalent plates, especially those using a B4C strike face, at higher velocity. 3,300ft/s is the REV. G standard. Softer alumina plates like the 4SAS4 should be no problem at that velocity.Ceradyne is an extraordinary armor manufacturer and they had plates that replicated XSAPI performance in 2004 at far less weight. Highcom can't compare, especially not with the 4SAS4.The RMA 1155 failed a FIT test, failed on the second round of 7.62x51 FMJ at 100 meter standoff per an anon's test, and its manufacturer has previously sent 10oz overweight plates (RMA 1192) to Buffman, whose test I assume you are referencing. There's a discrepancy between the 1155 Buffman got and the ones tested by anons and the NIJ, the latter of which resulted in its CPL suspension.I agree M995 is not an ideal solution, but against the 4SAS4 and the other sketchy IVs below the 1155, it is anon's best bet. The best bet is ADVAP or maybe FN PROPASS, but nobody is getting their hands on those.
>>62915669>M995 was not listed under the ESAPI standard until REV. G, so it's able to defeat Level IV-equivalent platesThat doesn't follow. There are lots of other reasons they could have left it off. I don't think that M995 has ever penetrated a clean Level IV plate, unless it's something like the 4800 or 4SAS4 (not really Level IV plates. Kind of IV-minus on a good day.) Also, I don't think that AP4 is really that much better. It's marginally better. Propass might actually be worse than M995.But this is about the 4SAS4, and just about anything will penetrate the 4SAS4, lmao
>>62915449>>62915450This is probably the worst armor scandal since the Shotstop raid. We need to see the Buffman video to see the whole story, but what we have so far is grim. Either way Highcom has some explaining to do. >>62915319M855 is your guy for engaging polyethylene armor and 80s soviet helmets. If you want either true AP or true barrier-blind performance, look elsewhere. Like I mentioned before, everybody where they can should really stock some AP for emergency situations. Home invaders won't be running without armor forever. Like other anon mentioned, M995 is not a guaranteed armor killer. If you want to guarantee defeating all but the very best armor, you need a .308 with better AP than M993 (XSAPI threat) at 3,050ft/s. Running that in HD scenarios is iffy, so it's a game of probability and compromise either way. Prep based on probability.>>62914892Someone who wants to make the home invader who bought 3lb polyethylene plates look like a fool.>>62914690Plates only cover your vitals. If you can aim for the pelvis, you can get around them.
>>62915602I'm well aware of M855 PE/M193 steel penetration, being an on-off /pfg/ lurker. Just never thought I'd be on the other end of having to penetrate even defective ceramic armor (theoretically, given how many 4SAS4s will potentially be scavenged from dumpsters soon), and realized I was potentially lacking. Thankfully I can still score M855 in this liberal hellhole, unlike its far better successors. I'd buy a few M855A1s or M995s in a heartbeat if my local FFLs accepted shipments from non-major online retailers, which they don't. Fuck this state.
>>62910354I also fell for it. Wanted to get a cheap pair for my fiancé in an emergency. Have sent two emails now requesting order cancelation and refund.
>>62915776We won't ever know for sure, but it's telling that the ESAPI, commonly regarded as equivalent to a IV+, wasn't required to handle M995 until REV G. This is getting super technical, but B4C strike faces tend to do poorly against tungsten penetrators due to amorphization. Reaction bonded worse than hot-pressed. ESAPIs traditionally use a B4C strike face, so they're not doing hot against M995 until REV. G when they were revised to handle it. Alumina strike faces like the 1155, 4SAS4, and 4SAS7 are the softest of the big three ceramics and will accordingly struggle against WC threats M995. Why are none of them special threat tested against it? Indeed, why isn't RMA saying outright the 1155 is rated for M995 / AP4? In all situations, including this and why the 4SAS4's problems didn't show in the early 2000s when it was actually a new plate, there is indeed a shortage of testing data. We have to make reasonable leaps here and there based on the info we do have.However, if Level IVs were consistently able to stop M995, they would test against it more frequently. It's not an obscure threat like Propass - which is advertised specifically by FN to defeat Level IV armor. Only a handful of plates show test reports against M995. As I mentioned previously with the RMA 1192, any youtube tests showing the plate overperforming its own test reports need to be taken with a grain of salt.
>>62915839This is an interesting situation. Apex, Titan, Tacticalshit, and the other vendors could deep discount the 4SAS4 once the word fully gets out and wind up turning it into the saturday night special of armor.
>>62915850Your experience is unfortunately why nothing "new" in the armor industry can be trusted, not until it gets some experience through test reports and certifications. Almost every time someone tries something too good to be true, they get burned. This industry is just so damn sketchy.
>>62915824Yeah, it's a huge deal. Highcom used to be one of the big boys just a few years ago, to see them reduced to defective plate scamming like some no-name Chinesium outfit is absolutely shocking.>>62915914Think Jamal will buy/steal them for all his homies? Might push PDs to switch to M855A1 or similar projectiles for SWAT and jump out boys if the local bangers start kitting up.
>>62915949My own personal pair are Hoplites; like I did my research in excess years ago when I got mine. This just seemed like a great opportunity to grab something extra but yeah, unless Hoplite has some crazy sale (because I trust Lyman), no other armor company will be getting my business again. Like you said, far too sketchy.
Buffman is now reporting on Reddit that an overly weak/thin fiberglass backer is the worst part of these defective "new" 4SAS4s. That's not good at all, since it's the part that SHOULD be the most intact after a strike face drop/rough handling.
>>62916053>Yeah, it's a huge deal.I think it's because of their financial situation. Their stock is at a fraction of where it was four years ago. They are likely just trying to stay afloat.>PDs pushed to switch to M855A1...I think DocGKR's posts on Lightfighter and P&S from fifteen years ago, advocating for the adoption of a 6.8 SPC or equivalent caliber with barrier blind and tungsten AP loads for LE use, are going to make him look like armor Nostradamus down the road. Armored criminals are inevitable. Armor will only get cheaper from here on out. The Chinese manufacturers are learning and the 4SAS4s are about to get discarded en masse if the Buffman video turns out the way we think it will. Start practicing anti-armor drills if you can't procure suitable AP ammo.
>>62916118So it's not the drop test that's killing the plate. Okay, this keeps looking worse and worse. Thanks for the intel.
>>62916124You're quite right about their finances causing desperation and a drop into outright criminal activity, but it's still shocking. Like seeing the rich kid from high school robbing liquor stores for rent money 20 years later. As for police using AP rounds, since they've got a legal exemption I'm sure a lot of big-city SWAT teams have a couple boxes of steel core penetrators stashed away for emergencies, especially after North Hollywood. If this gets bigger I can see them stocking up on it, and smaller departments buying a few boxes as well. All I can get is M855 so I'd better practice my groupings, so if I have to face a 4SAS4 in banger hands I can crack my way through if I can't aim around.
>>62916137Yeah, we were convinced the big problem was the ceramics, but Buffman's now saying it's the backer, and if one comment is to be believed 6.8mm SPC may have punched through during his test. That is very, VERY bad.
Dumb question. I'm not up to snuff with all of the NIJ rating numbers. If this does in fact turn out to be a complete scam, what's the highest caliber that could actually be defeated by the plates in their real state?
>>62914782>I can only see the purchase of goods and services through the lens of my political views. You're just as retarded as the lefties that boycotted Chick-fil-A over muh gays.
>>62916229We have no real idea until Buffman drops his full video and penetration spreadsheet next week. The defective 4SAS4s might only be good for handgun threats, they might stop .308, we just don't know for sure. If the backer truly is the weakest link (and there's nothing defective with the ceramics, which is still a possibility) then it might be like the similarly thin-backed Hesco L210, good for 5.56/7.62x39 FMJ but even generic .308 FMJ blows through like a rocket. It's all speculation at this point.
>>62916266Understood. If that turns out to be the case, I don't feel entirely fucked over after spending 200 dollars... but if I can get my money back and not support this type of nonsense, I'd like to.
>>62916292We're talking a 7+ lb plate with the 4SAS4. The L210s were like 5 lbs and much thinner. It's like buying a giant winter coat that makes you look like the Michelin Man but protects from the cold like a cheap hoodie from the discount store. It's a lot of extra weight and bulk for vastly substandard protection. If worst-case-scenario the plates turn out to only protect against HG3/IIIA handgun threats you could've bought $70 Militech soft IIIA panels that are like 1 pound each and thin as a pair of jeans. Even Botach Battle Steel III+ would've been better, since they're like 4.5 lbs and actually stop .308 according to Buffman's tests. He's been said to skew his tests to give the plate manufacturer the benefit of the doubt (apparently American Blast hit him with a C&D over a failed test and he's been legally skittish ever since), so anything straight up failing this badly is a massive, MASSIVE surprise and a supremely bad thing. We're wondering if the real reason he's delaying the video this late is that he's running it past a lawyer first so he doesn't get in legal hot water again.tl;dr: If they're failing a Buffman test, then something's gone very wrong and you NEED to ditch them, or at least give them to your least favorite relative.
>>62916163Several police departments actually have stocks of tungsten-core SWISS P in both 5.56 and 7.62x51, and even some other calibers. It is superior to tungsten-core M995 and M993. The 7.62 and .300WM versions are candidate XSAPI busters. The .338LM version is nasty. On the other hand, the US military has replaced M995 and M993 with ADVAP penetrators like 7.62 M1158, and SOCOM's got a real scary .338 Norma version, M1154. Steel core like M855 and M855A1 won't cut it for real deal Level IV, unlike the 4SAS4. Militech is the natural upgrade path once 4SAS4 users find out their armor is substandard. Prep accordingly.>>62916266If it turns out to be like a heavier L210 then it's still pretty much over. That's crap that would have been subpar in 1974. Variable body armor plates from 1965 would laugh at it.AR500 and the other steel plate manufacturers are going to be on the offensive now that they have dubious ammo behind their claims of ceramic fragility. I think a new wave of steel-backed, heavily-padded ceramics might appear once the 0101.07 CPL drops. Would be interesting to see how they do. Newer steel-backed LIBA plates from Tencate are promising but they aren't monolithic strike faces or tile arrays, and they use better steel than budget plates do.Still, with all the recent debacles and scandals, it feels like we're going back to the 0101.03-0101.04 dark ages. The NIJ standard is behind. We're swamped with Dragonskin, tungsten-rated no name plates, flexible rifle armor, revolutionary "duritium" fibers and other wonder materials, sketchy fragile ceramics, fake-origin import plates, spall-heavy steel, and formerly reputable armor that doesn't hold up to basic testing. Nobody can be fully trusted and we have to rely on SMEs. There's fake ratings and a fleeting respect for the NIJ. Not much has really changed, except we've got better and faster methods of independent testing (Youtube!) - hence why it's taking weeks, not years, to discover sketchy armor.
>>62916362Understood, thank you for the no b.s. assessmentHopefully I just get refunded and the order is canceled
>>62916402Like I said in >>62916362, when even Botach's lower-rated/much lighter Chinesium plate beats you in a Buffman test, it's over. No redo, just over, you're done. As for the armor scene, it's always been a wild west full of scammy snake oil, but as you said, it's just far easier/faster to catch them thanks to Youtubers shooting every new plate that comes out. It's always been there, we're just seeing it in public now.
>>62910360Based
>>62916408Depends on who you bought it from, unfortunately. Thankfully, chargebacks are a thing as long as you don't plan to do business with that seller ever again.
>>62916478It'd be interesting to see if old BBS archives showed similar controversies in the 1990s, during the 0101.03 period. Quite humorously that would have been closer to when the 4SAS4 was actually new than today. Valid points about Botach. Like I said earlier, the Chinese manufacturers are learning how to make armor more consistently and at ahigher grade. It is only a matter of time before $50 Level IVs are a thing and people are rocking them in airsoft carriers with three mags for their ARPs.
>>62915449>>62915450: (okay
>>62916607Full disclosure, I bought some Botach III+ plates a while back, thanks to Buffman's video showing they worked. Long story short, they were good enough (they stop what the label says and nothing more), affordably priced, and most importantly were available when most everything else was out of stock and I needed rifle-rated armor. I have no delusions about them stopping anything hotter than their listed threats, or resisting a bunch of impacts. They're currently backup/family loaner plates, stored in packing peanuts to prevent handling damage. I still trust them more than the "new" 4SAS4.>>62916748It's a very sad and shocking tale.
I found more direct Buffman comments from Youtube. The strike face is okay but the backer is indeed a massive problem; the 4SAS4s do stop a couple of 5.56 and .308, but the backer fails quick and won't stand up to repeated hits like most other plates he's tested. The 4SAS4s even fail Level III testing in that some will only stop two hits from .308 before failing (minimum spec for III is stopping three .308 hits). He does note that if you used them ICW some additional IIIA backers they MIGHT be okay. But for a 7+ pound plate to require ICW in this day and age, and even then only a maybe? Absolutely ridiculous.This is a giant mess.
>>62916862I picked a pair of their lvl 4 plates. I'd trust them on stopping what they say they can stop.
As an addendum to >>62917003, Buffman says the plate also failed single hit .30-06 M2AP until he dialed down the velocity way down, to like 16" barrel tier. This thing is basically a super overweight IIIA+++ plate pretending to be IV.
>>62917018The way I see Botach, they're the king of the Chinesiums. There's talk that Botach sources their Battle Steel plates via diversions from the PLA production lines, so the overall quality is higher than usual Chinese white label mystery meat. I've seen a torn-down PLA/PAP issue plate that looks identical to a Botach except for the cover, so maybe there's some truth to it. Either way, I have my III+ plates from them, and zero delusions about their effectiveness. Don't toss it around like an NIJ certified plate and don't expect it to counter even mildly above-spec threats. They'll save your life against their rated threats and absolutely nothing more.
>>62916163Yeah, I think that's it. They've lost $12M so far this year. They must have been on the brink, to make selling defective plates seem like a good idea. Fucking scummy move.
>>62917202Well, then they were willing to dump decades of goodwill and reputation on one last gamble. I see bankruptcy and lawsuits in their near future once word of this disaster spreads. That said, of all the last-ditch scams they could pull, dumping an overweight, defective "Level IV" (really IIIA+++/SRT) plate on the market was one of the last things anyone expected. Didn't they realize Buffman or another Youtuber would catch on quickly and spread the word, given how rapidly Youtube armor testers latch onto armor deals? What brainiac in Highcom management approved this abject stupidity? On that note, who do you think is going under the bus to try and salvage what little rep they have left?This just raises more and more questions.
>>62917003Minimum spec for III is actually six hits. It's normal for IVs to fail the III test, but not usually this badly. The RMA 1155 failed on the second hit of 7.62x51mm FMJ too, albeit at 100 meter standoff per an anon's test. The 4SAS4 at best is basically a downgrade from the RMA 1155 in the Level IV department, and at worst basically a crap alternative to even Botachs. Not as bad as some of us were fearing but still rough.>>62917018My only concerns with them are quality control and long term durability, but for loaners they're fine.>>62917019That's depressing.>>62917026Militech is really the Chinesium king. Their plates are an upgrade from Botachs in terms of build quality, but come at a premium price increase.>>62917316Word hasn't even gotten out yet on other forums. Arfcom dudes are still buying them.
You guys are really getting way too worked up over this nothingburger
>>62918247They probably sold thousands of those things, and it turns out that they don't fucking work. Even Chinese plates are 10x better.I have so many questions.> Were these plates even tested to NIJ 0101.04 standards, or did Highcom skip that process? > Why did they dust off a 20-year-old design when better, more proven options exist? > If these were truly "contract overruns" for Ukraine, does that mean they knowingly sent defective plates to a war zone? > If not, was the "Ukraine contract" just a marketing lie to move rejected materials or substandard plates? > Were there no internal alarms, no QA staff raising red flags? Did nobody say that this was a bad idea?> What role did financial desperation play in this? > Did they think no one would test these plates or notice how poorly they perform?They're not going to be able to explain this. It's inexplicable.
>>62917995Oops, I got my NIJ test standards all mixed up again. Still, that's pretty bad, an overweight SRT plate masquerading as a IV, with boomers still buying them like crazy. Even my Botach loaners are better. I still can't get my head around how far Highcom's fallen.
>>62918247It's straight up blatant white label Chinesium tier fraud, from one of the more trustworthy giants of the civilian body armor industry no less. That's why everyone is worked up about it. Highcom just threw away 25 years of reputation for a failed small-change money grab and potentially upended the entire industry in the process, because if you can't trust Highcom then who can you trust?>>62918440Yeah, in some ways it's actually worse than SRTs like the L210 in that it's fraudulently advertised/marked as being a proper IV. Anyone who bought an L210 knew what they were getting into, but if you believe the 4SAS4's labeling you're going to die, or at least end up in the hospital getting a steel core dug out of your chest.
>>62918440The situation thickens. I have new intel.1. I found two old test videos of the 4SAS7 done by some other guy from over a decade ago. Their multi-hit performance was excellent.Part one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-0KtG8gRAgPart two: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNwNmFq2cXQSee the description of both videos to see tested rounds and whether they penetrated or were defeated. Spoilers, the 4SAS7 from ten years ago did a hell of a lot better than the 4SAS4 did in Buff's test.2. The 4SAS4 is actually slightly newer than previously thought. It is from 2008, not 2004. Not that it's any consolation, but it's only a 16 year old design. The 4SAS7 replaced it around 2012-2014. See pic related for a snip from Highcom's archived site via the wayback machine. It was preceded by the 4SCS-1 from 2006-2007 and the HEODS-85A from prior to 2006.
Also take a look at the 4SAS12 from back in 2011. It was advertised to have a v50 velocity against M2AP (penetration 50% of the time) of 3,628ft/s.https://web.archive.org/web/20111009031233/http://www.highcomsecurity.com/body-armor/ballistic-plates-&-hard-armor/guardian-4sas-12.htmlI'm having trouble finding the 4SAS7's page here, so it's possible it's slightly newer than previously thought and the 4SAS4 was around for longer. Earliest reference I can find to the 4SAS7 is 2014, so it's still a damn old plate. Still way after 0101.06 was introduced in 2008, so the situation remains awkward as to why the plates were never certified to the newer standard. The 4SAS12 was certified though, so if anyone has a pair of those still sitting in the closet they seem to be great plates. Discontinued though.
>>62919068>>62919099So it's a combination of dangerously substandard materials/QC and China-tier fraud, got it. Also, /gq/ is now saying after this shitstorm hits Highcom will be in such dire financial straits that even /gq/ could pool their money and buy them out. I'd put a few bucks towards that potential Kickstarter just for the lulz.
>>62919099> It was advertised to have a v50 velocity against M2AP (penetration 50% of the time) of 3,628ft/sAnd somehow the $99 4SAS4 repeatedly doesn't stop it at 2880 fps? Something is seriously fucked here. It's sure looking like they were trying to pass off garbage materials.
>>62919106>>62919127What the videos and webpages I found show is that Highcom's armor, back in the 2010s, was seriously top notch. The 4SAS7 in that video knocks the socks off the 1155 in pic related, and the 1155 was certified (lol) to the more difficult 0101.06 standard! That's why everyone trusted Highcom. I definitely think the 4SAS4 of 2024 is made using sub-par materials. It just performs too poorly compared to the other examples.
I'm actually struggling to figure out why Highcom didn't break the 4SAS12 out of retirement for the Ukraine contract. .06 certified, drop test ready, bloody outstanding v50 velocity against M2AP, not too expensive and not too heavy. That v50 would translate to tremendously better odds against out-of-spec threats at standoff distances. No guaranteed performance against rounds like 7N37, but I'll take those odds over the 4SAS4's chances any day.
>>62919203Why the 4SAS4 at all? It's like bringing a Vietnam-era plate out of retirement. There's no reason for it. It's inexplicable.
I bought a set of multicurve 4SAS7 for $340 right before the 4SAS4 dropped. Did I do good?
>>62919225Indeed. Honestly, if the 4SAS7 performs like it does in those two videos, bring that out of retirement. It makes no sense to bring some bottom-barrel plate out when the rest of the lineup is way better. It would be almost like Ceradyne showing up to the 2005 ESAPI trial with a chicken plate from 1972. Funny thing is, the chicken plate actually stopped threats as-advertised.
>>62919294Assuming the issues with the 4SAS4 are contained to the 4SAS4, you did fine. Per the above two videos the 4SAS7 is rock-solid, even in the multi-hit department that IVs aren't usually too good at. However, those videos are a decade old, and we don't know though if Highcom has started half-assing more non-.06 plates, so please exercise a little caution.
>>62919311Highcom was sold off in 2018 or 2019, and the people who made plates 10 years ago probably don't work there any longer. "Updated" designs could be much worse. The materials they use now could also be worse. They could also be selling pure snake oil.
>>62916253>Freedom of choice, expression and capitalism is le BAD!
>>62920374> chicken plate from 1972Probably used better ceramic and better fiberglass than the Nov 2024 4SAS4, and had better QC and design fundamentals. I'm not joking at all.
>>62921018oops this was meant for >>62919304
>>62919203>>62919225>>62919304Maybe whatever materials or labor they had on hand forced that choice. Cranking out something primitive is easier than more modern stuff if you've got an inexperienced workforce like >>62920295 suggests, and if you don't have the money to buy modern materials, that can affect it too.
