Confucian morality makes no sense. So Liu Bei is righteous for quietly obeying the Emperor even though he was disrespected, but Song Jiang is also righteous for rebelling so long as he doesn't actually try to overthrow the Emperor, but Cao Cao is bad because he cuts out the middleman and takes power from an Emperor who sucks? What makes the Yellow Turbans bad but the Outlaws of the Marsh good?
>>23281843Exactly
>>23281843>Confucian morality makes no senseYou might even say it's Confu-sing!
>>23281843Orthodox Confucian morality is really a roundabout version of might makes right.It espouses socially harmony through submission to established orders and avoidance of novelty. The inherent contradiction, namely that the established order was once novel, was already pointed out everywhere in ancient China by every other school of thought.Confucianism then was originally a sort of romantic conservatism, and only became a system of morality capable of governing a country with the Han. This Confucianism elevated all forms of submission to authority to the level of a virtue. This naturally caused an arms race of obedience. Read 二十四孝/24 Filial Exemplars for a look at the perverse culture that resulted. There are stories of people acting like infants to amuse their senile parents and tasting their shit.To hold such an incontestable authority naturally takes brute force. That's why Chinese authority has always been so brutal. That's also why Confucian morality functionally needs Legalist practicality, and why every effective Chinese leader has been some version of 外儒內法 (Confucian outside, Legalist inside.)
>>23281843>but Cao Cao is badWrong, Cao Cao was based.
>In the last chapter it was recorded that Zhang Fei was about to end his life with his own weapon in Xuyi. >2 But Liu Bei rushed forward and caught Zhang Fei in his arms, snatched away the sword, and threw it on the earth. >3 Liu Bei said, "The ancient had a saying: 'Brothers are as hands and feet; wives and children are as clothing. You may mend your torn dress, but who can reattach a lost limb?' Confucianism is based, simple as
>>23282023For me, it's the Sun family. Let the losers tire each other out and sweep in to claim the prize like a true Sigma.
What's best English translation for Romance of the three kingdoms?
>>23282521I've learned this lesson in Starcraft several times. If I consider myself to have one personality flaw it is failure to identify the one who is waiting.
>>23281843CaoCao is immoral because he lostshrimple as that
>>23282664Chinese history is very dense and complicated even according to Chinese historians. It is basically people overthrowing each other again and again, and if you win, well then according to Chinese philosophy you deserve to rule and the mandate of Heaven.
>>23282677It would true to say that he lost because he was immoral, this ties into the idea of the mandate of Heaven, which espouses that the immutable natural and sacred moral law is the basis by which rulers maintain their rule (the obedience and loyalty of the people) and by which generals win wars.
>>23282684Some historical anecdotes on various uprisings and battles in Chinese history as translated by the USMC from Mao's famous war book, On Protracted War, which incorporates Chinese philosophy and history such as Buddhism, Wuxing, and Sun Tzu>Chengpu, situated in the southwest of the present Chuancheng County in Shantung Province, was the scene of a great battle between the states of Tsin and Chu in 632 BC. At the beginning of the battle the Chu troops got the upper hand. The Tsin troops, after making a retreat of 90 li, chose the right and left flanks of the Chu troops, their weak spots, and inflicted heavy defeats on them.>The ancient town of Chengkeo, in the northwest of the present Chengkao County, Honan Province, was of great military importance. It was the scene of battles fought in 203 B.C. between Liu Pang, King of Han, and Hsiang Yu, King of Chu. At first Hsiang Yu captured Hsingyang and Chengkao and Liu Pang's troops were almost routed. Liu Pang waited until the opportune moment when Hsiang Yu's troops were in midstream crossing the Szeshui River, and then crushed them and recaptured Chengkao.>In 204 B.C., Han Hsin, a general of the state of Han, led his men in a big battle with Chao Hsieh at Chinghsing. Chao Hsieh's army, said to be 200,000 strong, was several times that of Han. Deploying his troops with their backs to a river, Han Hsin led them in valiant combat, and at the same time dispatched some units to attack and occupy the enemy's weakly garrisoned rear. Caught in a pincer, Chao Hsieh's troops were utterly defeated.>The ancient town of Kunyang, in the north of the present Yehhsien County, Honan Province, was the place where Liu Hsiu, founder of the Eastern Han Dynasty, defeated the troops of Wang Mang, Emperor of the Hsin Dynasty, in A.D. 23. There was a huge numerical disparity between the two sides, Liu Hsiu's forces totalling 8,000 to 9,000 men as against Wang Mang's 400,000. But taking advantage of the negligence of Wang Mang's generals, Wang Hsun and Wang Yi, who underestimated the enemy, Liu Hsiu with only three thousand picked troops put Wang Mang's main forces to rout. He followed up this victory by crushing the rest of the enemy troops.
>>23282692>Kuantu was in the northeast of the present Chungmou County, Honan Province, and the scene of the battle between the armies of Tsao Tsao and Yuan Shao in A D 200. Yuan Shao had an army of 100,000, while Tsao Tsao had only a meagre force and was short of supplies. Taking advantage of the lack of vigilance on the part of Yuan Shao's troops, who belittled the enemy, Tsao Tsao dispatched his light-footed soldiers to spring a surprise attack on them and set their supplies on fire. Yuan Shao's army was thrown into confusion and its main force wiped out.>The state of Wu was ruled by Sun Chuan, and the state of Wei by Tsao Tsao. Chihpi is situated on the south bank of the Yangtse River, to the northeast of Chisyu, Hupeh Province. In A.D. 208 Tsao Tsao led an army of over 500,000 men, which he proclaimed to be 800,000 strong, to launch an attack on Sun Chuan. The latter, in alliance with Tsao Tsao's antagonist Liu Pei, mustered a force of 30,000. Knowing that Tsao Tsao's army was plagued by epidemics and was unaccustomed to action afloat, the allied forces of Sun Chuan and Liu Pei set fire to Tsao Tsao's fleet and crushed his army.>Yiling, to the east of the present Ichang, Hupeh Province, was the place where Lu Sun, a general of the state of Wu, defeated the army of Liu Pei, ruler of Shu, in A D. 222. Liu Pei's troops scored successive victories at the beginning of the war and penetrated five or six hundred li into the territory of Wu as far as Yiling. Lu Sun, who was defending Yiling, avoided battle for over seven months until Liu Pei "was at his wits' end and his troops were exhausted and demoralized". Then he crushed Liu Pei's troops by taking advantage of a favourable wind to set fire to their tents.
>>23282695>Hsieh Hsuan, a general of Eastern Tsin Dynasty, defeated Fu Chien, ruler of the state of Chin, in AD 383 at the Feishui River in Anhwei Province. Fu Chien had an infantry force of more than 600,000, a cavalry force of 270,000 and a guards corps of more than 30,000, while the land and river forces of Eastern Tsin numbered only 80,000. When the armies lined up on opposite banks of the Feishui River, Hsieh Hsuan, taking advantage of the overconfidence and conceit of the enemy troops, requested Fu Chien to move his troops back so as to leave room for the Eastern Tsin troops to cross the river and fight it out. Fu Chien complied, but when he ordered withdrawal, his troops got into a panic and could not be stopped. Seizing the opportunity, the Eastern Tsin troops crossed the river, launched an offensive and crushed the enemy.>In A.D. 383, Fu Chien, the ruler of the state of Chin, belittled the forces of Tsin and attacked them. The Tsin troops defeated the enemy's advance units at Lochien, Shouyang County, Anhwei Province, and pushed forward by land and water. Ascending the city wall of Shonyang, Fu Chien observed the excellent alignment of the Tsin troops and, mistaking the woods and bushes on Mount Pakung for enemy soldiers, was frightened by the enemy's apparent strength.The recurring theme is these generals overcome difficult odds through their cleverness and decisive thinking.>Chao Hsieh's army, said to be 200,000 strong, was several times that of Han. >Liu Hsiu's forces totalling 8,000 to 9,000 men as against Wang Mang's 400,000>Yuan Shao had an army of 100,000, while Tsao Tsao had only a meagre force and was short of supplies.>Tsao Tsao led an army of over 500,000 men, which he proclaimed to be 800,000 strong, to launch an attack on Sun Chuan. The latter, in alliance with Tsao Tsao's antagonist Liu Pei, mustered a force of 30,000.
Confucianism is compliance more than anything else. You can't have diversity of thought or dissent or even competing polities separate from the mandate of heaven. Compliance has to trickle down from the emperor to the lowest peasant. If the swarm moves left, then you move left, I think japan is a better example of what succesful confucianism can achieve especially tokugawa japan onwards, china was just too big back then for that to work.
>>23282664But he won, his children lost
>>23281869Kek
>>23283468Doesn't matter. Truth is flexible, might makes right, and the baby must be thrown out with the bathwater every time. See the practice of family exterminations, collective punishment, and the CCP's own approach to history today.
>>23281946Why do such nice replies as yours so frequently go without comment? Good reply, anon. I found it interesting and tought-provoking.
"XV. The Master said, 'Who can go out but by the door? How is it that men will not walk according to these ways?' ""CHAP. XXVI. The Master said, 'It is all over! I have not yet seen one who could perceive his faults, and inwardly accuse himself.' "What's there not to get? Confucianism is about simplicity, humility, righteousness. What is there to be confused about ? Maybe you should start with a companion if the stories of the kingdoms are confusing.
>>23283955how do you go from those two lines to torturing women to death in Water Margin
>>23282777>Confucianism is compliance more than anything elseLoyalty != compliance, it was acceptable to rebel as long as you blamed the Emperor's corrupt advisors for all the problems and stayed loyal to the dynasty.
>>23281843>Confucian morality makes no senseCorrect, which is why they switched to Legalism
>>23285200This is true for every ideology, every religion, every person, and every thought, on and on for all of time. This is some kind of fallacious idea about ideological purity that is frivolous and insane. Confucius himself did not consider himself perfectly virtuous, perfectly wise, or even significantly great. An action that goes against humility, modesty, honor, respect, and morality, goes against Confucius.
>>23285200Confucianism was always a reaction against the popular worldview. >>23281946>>23282777>>23285489The ideal Confucian official would criticize the current direction of the government and then accept the consequences of his criticism with equanimity, acting essentially as a martyr. There were whole official positions created with the sole (nominal) purpose of giving pushback against the emperor's whims.
FUCK Song Jiang for what he did to my nibba Li Kui
>>23281946not according to mencius>The king Xuan of Qi asked, saying, 'Was it so, that Tang banished Jie, and that king Wu smote Zhou?'>Mencius replied, 'It is so in the records.'>The king said, 'May a minister then put his sovereign to death?'>Mencius said, 'He who outrages the benevolence proper to his nature, is called a robber; he who outrages righteousness, is called a ruffian. The robber and ruffian we call a mere fellow. I have heard of the cutting off of the fellow Zhou, but I have not heard of the putting a sovereign to death, in his case.'
>>23281843Because the morality of things isn't what's important to begin with. Confucianism is very practical, concerned with what really happens in the real world not the principle of the matter. Whatever you do if it benefits society in a real way it is good no matter the intention and no matter how roundabout it may be. To put aside your personal feelings and obey for the greater good, yes that is good. To rebel in a way that seeks positive change without upsetting things more than they need to be, that is also good. To seek power purely for your own benefit and undermine the rules of society, no that is bad.But then to truly understand you have to absorb the historical context of China as a nation with an immense history of conflict and rebellion. To "benefit" society is really in many ways to strengthen it and make it resilient from the constant pressure of outside forces. Even if your rebellion is justified with good intentions if it destabilizes and weakens the nation for 20 years you have risked the wellbeing of everyone and everything. Really I think this is key to understanding China as a nation.
>>23285886>This is true for every ideology, every religion, every person, and every thought, on and on for all of timeok but liu bei fucking ate a dude's wife and then wept because he was touched by the husband's loyalty to him
>>23282533Moss Roberts'.
>>23282533Subtitles of the TV show
>>23281843>Cao Cao is badI too was once 16
>>23282311>bros before hoes, but chinese
>>23281843>different literature written by different authors in different times espouse conflicting viewsWoah, how unusual.Why do fucking retards like you try to pidgeonhole several millennia of Chinese history as belonging to one ideology like Confucianism as if everyone 100% believed and acted that way as well? Imagine trying to do that with European history or even just the Romans. Even within a piece of literature like Outlaws of the Marsh you can contradictions in the story and morality, likely because a second author added the bit at the end.
>>23288650High quality post
>>23288669First Cao Cao, then Benjamin Franklin, which other historical figure was a Christmas cake chaser?
>>23288586surely you mean the better one
>>23288697Napoleon
For me, it's Taosim, the perfect religion for a man who wants to assassinate Xuanzang on his Journey to the West
THE GREAT SAGE EQUAL TO HEAVEN WAS FUCKED AND GOT THE RAW DEAL. ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT MY MAN DOES THE BEST FOR HIS PEOPLE TO CURE DEATH AND WHAT DOES HE GET? TRAPPED UNDER A ROCK FOR 500 YEARS ONLY TO BECOME A SLAVE TO SOME STICK IN THE MUD. WHY DIDNT HE JUST TEACH THE MONK HOW TO CLOUD WALK?
>>23289116haha le funny contrarian post :D
>>23289581Monkeys aren't people, kiddo. Buddha says so.
>"Hey what if we actually had laws instead of vague honor bullshit">Greatest Chinese philosopher in history
>>23290724>we must construct more fortifications!>greatest logician in China
>it's a Zhang Fei gets drunk and ruins everything chapter
>>23281843I think it is secular daoism personally.Do your thing, soothe the situation and go back to where you came from.
>>23281843>chinese moralty is badwho wudda thunk?
>>23281869kys nigger
>>23281946>>23282777But Lu Bu constantly betrayed his masters and was also regarded as an honorable and all around cool dude
>>23288650I refuse to believe in a religion that deems Cao Cao anything but based.
>>23281946>The inherent contradiction, namely that the established order was once noveleh, I feel like if it was so inherent it wouldnt be so easily pointed out for a system that servived modestly robustly for a good few thousand years.I think novelty/established order might be a poor way to see it and its more sublimated into the idea of closer and further from the absolute ideal. ideally everyone would work together in an orderly way, so going towards that is good and from it bad.Of course the byproduct of this is the obedience/novelty thing you mentioned, sure, but im not sure if that is the conceptual heart of the matter.But dont take my word for it, my understanding of eastern sociology isnt the most brushed up on.
Threadly reminder that Liu Bei is a cannibal
cao cao and liu bei do the same things except liu bei employs patience does them with great optics whereas cao cao is crude one cannot be a person to look upto if people can easily misunderstand your intentions
>>23293695>cao cao and liu bei do the same thingsCao Cao has will to power and refuses to watch while incompetents run China. Liu Bei swears fealty to a literal infant and wonders why he ends up dead.
>>23295054he had basically nothing that helps him amass an army and contend for power
10/10 philosophy would follow again
>>23295069Literally every person he meets tells him "you are a great man who can lead people to greatness" but Fraud Bei fumbles his chances time after time
>>23296852pretty good for a mat weaver
>>23292024>constantly betrayed>constantly thats the virtue
>>23281843Confucius was a childish demon man who grew up with a single mother. He then proceeded to infantilize amd castrate the whole of Asia.
>>23281843You have to have a high IQ to understand the Mandate of Heaven.If you overthrow the emperor and succeed, heaven has mandated your reign and you are blessed and righteous. If you failed, then of course you did not have the Mandate of Heaven and are a dishonourable fool. The only righteous ones are the winner and those else who humbly accept their righteousness.
>>23287446Women and children are like garments to be used and discarded. They repeat this in the book multiple times. If you have any honor or filial piety you’d understand this fundamental truth
>>23281843Confucianism at the end of the day is primarily about ultimate surrender to authority. The more you prostrate yourself to authority, the better of a person you are.Its literally the most cuckolded philosophy ever created, and Chinese governments have been wielding it as a sword to threaten its subjects and maintain obedience for centuries, even today.
>>23298821that's pretty heckin problematic
If Cao Cao was so great, why couldn't he conquer the Western half of China?
>mfw pang tong dies
>>23301542>mfw Liu Bei's wife throws herself down a well because she thinks Zhao Zilong wouldn't be able to escape while also protecting her and Liu Bei is so angry that Zhao Zilong almost died saving his wife that he refuses to look at his newborn son
>>23302244>mfw cao pi kills his younger brighter brother but cao cao does nothing about it despite knowing because being able to lie makes him a more cunning leader
>>23295311that wasn't even his advice
>>23301409My brother in Confucius no Chinese leader did that until modern times because it's just a big fucking desert. The Cao family is so kino though, they won AND they were classic poets.
>>23302276facts are facts
>>23281946>There are stories of people acting like infants to amuse their senile parents and tasting their shit.I will eat my eyemy father and mother created my eye I must pay obeisance to my familyI must not let it go to wasteI will eat my eye
>>23282695>Tsao Tsao>Sun Chuan>Liu PeiWade-Giles gives me the ick
>>23281869Carlos!
>>23282699He who can maintain his sense of calm and centeredness remains rooted in immediate reality and thus has the freedom to move. He who loses this is rendered either paralyzed or delusional.
>>23286098i need this deck of cards
>>23286098>Queen of Spades You just KNOW
I played the dynasty warriors games and think these gooks were pretty cool. What's the best thing to read about them? Is there some giant English translated three kingdoms book or do I have to read like twenty fucking things? I'm not gay so I don't really care about Japan and shit like that but I like that they generally behave hyper masculine which is how I try to live every fucking day
>>23304625There is a giant English translated Three Kingdoms book, which you can read for free on the internet, which is exactly as riveting as you would expect 14th-century Chinese literature to be. If you want a more streamlined version there's the Sangokushi manga translated by /a/'s own Hox >>23282023 >>23292254
>>23304714Thanks bro, I fucking hate Japanese picture book and cartoon shit so no mangos for me, I'll see if I can find the free ebook of the real shit, appreciate you man, this'll be my next project after finishing Rousseau's Confessions
>>23304714Oh hey want to ask too, if I like something like le Mort d'Arthur would I enjoy this kind of writing in the big book? I can only do bits at a time but I guess I'm hoping for something similar to that
>>23281946cool coment
