What are his essential prose works? Guy wrote way too much
>>23324177How can people listen to Wagner and seriously not consider it degenerate. It's as degenerate as the life he lived.
>>23324249How was his life degenerate? What I do know is that you're easily susceptible to propaganda
>>23324177Wagner? Prose? What
>>23324177Recommended reading order is to start with The Music of the Future, written by Wagner as an introduction to his ideas for the French public, then the three 'big' writings from his late period, German Art and German Politics, Beethoven and Actors and Singers. With a small lecture entitled The Destiny of Opera as an essential preliminary reading before Actors and Singers. These are the ultimate maturation of his ideas and do much to clarify and build upon the most important writings of his life, as named by himself, Art and Revolution, The Artwork of the Future and Opera and Drama. In these latter, and for the first time, he unhesitatingly stepped into his own direction as artist and thinker. Everything he had written prior on art had only been leading up to them, very gradually. Now suddenly, through a mixture of a renewed study of Greek culture and German philosophy, his ideas exploded onto paper. Though rash and confusing at points, they are the centre of his thought and should be read in exegesis with the named later works. Their revolutionary import for our civilization, from a highly reactionary perspective, has never been lost. Other writings, of a secondary importance, include Judaism in Music, Some Explanations Concerning "Judaism in Music", A Communication to my Friends, What is German?, On Conducting, On Poetry and Composition, On Operatic Poetry and Composition, On the Application of Music to the Drama, Against Vivisection, Religion and Art and Know Thyself.
>>23324249I tried listening to Wagner many times but I just cant get into it...
>>23324299I read the Carr book and multiple excerpts from composite books on composers. Of all the composers to ever live he was by far the most degenerate in his life and aims. He committed adultery multiple times, took and never repaid debts, lived extravagantly with little means, and above all had meglomanic visions of replacing Christanity (yes he converted but it was bs) with the artist and his Gesamtkunstwerk. All while pointing the finger at da jooz. Yes they are degenerate weseals but relying on ambigous chromatic wizardry in your music while fucking your donors wife is as J as it gets.
>>23325295>He committed adultery multiple times, took and never repaid debts, lived extravagantly with little meansNothing wrong with that.>had meglomanic visions of replacing Christanity (yes he converted but it was bs) with the artist and his Gesamtkunstwerk.This is a clear misrepresentation by (((academics))). He wanted his art to preserve and celebrate Christian culture in a way no different from Bach or Raphael, only in an atheistic world it would serve to inspire people with the faith anew.>ambigous chromatic wizardry [...] is as J as it getsYou don't know anything about Western music, let alone about Wagner's music, which uses just as much diatonicism as chromaticism. The pushing of tonal boundaries was a natural process in the common practice period and it's something Mozart, and many other composers I'm sure you consider healthy, are famous for.
>>23324249>>23325155https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZy_kZjM0GQWhat is hard to appreciate about this?
>>23325295T. Ben Shapiro
>>23325295He’s one of the least degenerate men to ever exist. You’ll never be a fraction of the man he was.>while fucking your donors wife is as J as it gets.Never happened.
>>23325325>He wanted his art to preserve and celebrate Christian culture in a way no different from Bach or Raphael, only in an atheistic world it would serve to inspire people with the faith anew.This is pure cope. You expect me to believe that he was an actual Christian and build what is basically a worshipping ground for his own works? His philosophy is precisely what was attractive to the flustered painter turned politician that sent his people into a meat grinder and then died at his own hand. Wagner just continues down the line originally fronted by Beethoven to replace God with the artist and so it is reflected in what you believe was 'natural' in the development of music. It was a degeneration into autotheism and the techniques in dissonance where the permission.
>>23325416What do you mean by “actual Christian”? Do you have an idiosyncratic personal definition or do you just mean bending the knee to the Pope?
>>23325416You have serious issues, but it's hardly the first time someone has had an irrational hatred of Richard Wagner.>Probably the most lifelike, verbal portrait of Wagner is that of Villiers's. In a memorable passage, which I commend to Mr. Finck as testimony with which to snub recalcitrant clergymen and others, Villiers notes Wagner's violent disclaimer that his Parsifal was merely the work of the artist and not of the believing Christian. "Why, if I did not feel in my inmost soul the living light and love of that Christian faith, my works . . . would be the works of a liar and an ape. My art is my prayer." Thus Villiers reports Wagner—Wagner, whose marvelous soul changed colour every moment, like one of those exquisite flying fishes which paint the air and waters of the tropics.
>>23325440My definition is irrelevant because what I demonstrated as degeneration would apply to most Christian sects (outside of the most permissive Protestants and "Catholics") which is namely replacing God with the self.
>>23325456ye shall know them by their fruits
Paul recounted a conversation to us that Wagner had one day in 1881 with his influential banker friend, Friedrich Feustel, who was chairman of the Bayreuth town council. A factory owner, Friedrich von Schon, was present, and he recorded with surprising objectivity their argument about factory workers’ conditions. Wagner suddenly lost his temper. 'Yes,' he shouted, 'and they stand there all day in their factories and see and hear nothing but bare walls and noise and pounding of the machines - is that an existence fit for human beings?' Feustel tried to bring up mollifying counterarguments, but Schon recalled Wagner “flared up in a fit of the most profound and painful emotion, summing all that he had to say on the subject in a single exclamation: 'Children, children, have you forgotten Jesus Christ?' He uttered those words with so indescribable an expression in his eyes and with so shatteringly powerful a sense of fellow-feeling for the darker aspects of our social lives, and with such a moving reverence for the divinity of the name that he had just spoken, that we were all moved to the depths of our being. The effect was as if the master had placed the figure of the Redeemer before our innermost eye: 'I saw him - then his gaze fell on me!' Not another word was spoken. We rose and took our leave, our hearts profoundly stirred."
>>23324177Picrelated.>>23325458That was Wagner's retarded disciple Nietzsche though.
>>23325458Your definition is highly relevant since you seek to position yourself in the judgement seat>>23325462We can say we can know you by your fruits—obfuscation
>>23325472Wagner was uncommonly vivacious and rapid in his movements. To look at him no one would have thought that he was less than a year short of seventy, still less that he would not live to see his seventieth birthday. He was already inclined to corpulence, but his splendidly shaped, though by no means excessively large head clashed with his under-sized figure no more than did his small hands and feet. In comparison with the already aged-looking Liszt he looked disproportionately young, though Liszt was only two years his senior. The eyes flashed out from his pale features with varying colours, now light, now dark. Restlessly he strode around, drawing this friend and that into conversation.The party was already breaking up when I approached Porges and reminded him of his promise. My two friends were with me, and Porges introduced us. Wagner extended his hand in a friendly manner, and asked us if we had already heard any performances. He appeared to notice that I was excited, for he suddenly laid his hand on my chest and cried, 'How your heart is beating!' When, in my surprise and embarrassment, I made no reply, he added in broad Saxon: 'Now, you see, for such a young man as you, the Flower-Maidens are the principal things in "Parsifal," but don't lose your heart to them.' Then he shook hands with us once more. We had just reached the door as he shouted after us, 'But don't lose your heart.' I turned round, and there stood Wagner alone in the middle of the room, smilingly waving his hand to me.
>>23325472>>23325491>>23325474No arguments. Just posters posting Wagner's wizardry. I doubt anyone here even studies music or is familiar with the spirit that dwells in the most zealous of artists.
>>23325491The first rehearsal for this Wagner concert [in Vienna] took place in the small room of the Musical Association. On making his appearance in the orchestra Wagner was greeted with the customary Tusch, or flourish of trumpets. When his attention was drawn to the fact that the Conservatorium pupils occupied the auditorium, through which he had not passed, the composer-conductor advanced towards them and said: 'My young friends, we all belong to one another, so stop where you are,' thus inviting them to listen to the rehearsal. No wonder that Hellmesberger called for a cheer 'in honour of Herr Wagner,' and that the students responded thereto with all their might and main. The concert proved to be a great success, so much so that at its close Wagner addressed the audience in these words:Years ago, when I was staying within your walls, I received a welcome which surpassed all my expectations and afforded a proof that on the uncontested ground of this city, as elsewhere, German art had obtained the upper hand. This gratifying fact is manifested to-day in a still greater extent by the reception you have accorded to my art. In the name of that art, I thank you for the sympathy you have so liberally exhibited towards me to-day, and which is a guarantee that a great national enterprise, to which I have, for years, been devoting all my energy and strength, will not remain uncompleted. Whenever the old Greeks set about a great and important work, they supplicated Jupiter for some sign of his approbation; the eagle he caused to soar aloft, and the lightning flashes he hurled through the air were regarded by them as foreboding good. Similarly will we look upon the lightning, which so unexpectedly accompanied to-day the performance of the Feuerzauber, as a propitious omen, and hope that an undertaking which you have promoted in so gratifying a manner by your sympathy will attain to a successful conclusion. (Musical World, June 1, 1872.)The students were so delighted with Wagner, especially his pleasantly-spoken words of encouragement at the first rehearsal of the concert, and for allowing them to attend both the rehearsals, that they decided to present him with a silver goblet entwined with laurel.
>>23325502You think dissonance is Jewish, you can't pretend to know anything about music.
>>23325502There's no argument that can persuade someone from an arbitrary judgment totally divorced from historical fact. Aquatinting yourself with the truth is the "argument" provided. Or you can find relief in your smug mediocrity. I hope it's working for you
>>23325295Mozart was fascinated and obsessed with scat and farts, and even includes it extensively in his famous piece behind the lines a bit. He did other gross stuff I heard but those are more guesses and one-note accounts.
>>23325325>You don't know anything about Western music, let alone about Wagner's music, which uses just as much diatonicism as chromaticism. The pushing of tonal boundaries was a natural process in the common practice period and it's something Mozart, and many other composers I'm sure you consider healthy, are famous for.The cope here is unreal kek. If Mozart or Beethoven heard Tristan they would have literally shat themselves. It's perfectly healthy to admit Wagner is extremely chromatic and as far as tonality went before breaking apart.
>>23325412>Never happened.A second source of inspiration was Wagner's infatuation with the poet-writer Mathilde Wesendonck, the wife of the silk merchant Otto Wesendonck. Wagner met the Wesendoncks, who were both great admirers of his music, in Zürich in 1852. From May 1853 onwards Wesendonck made several loans to Wagner to finance his household expenses in Zürich, and in 1857 placed a cottage on his estate at Wagner's disposal, which became known as the Asyl ("asylum" or "place of rest"). During this period, Wagner's growing passion for his patron's wife inspired him to put aside work on the Ring cycle (which was not resumed for the next twelve years) and begin work on Tristan. While planning the opera, Wagner composed the Wesendonck Lieder, five songs for voice and piano, setting poems by Mathilde. Two of these settings are explicitly subtitled by Wagner as "studies for Tristan und Isolde".The amount of dickriding Wagner gets from his culty fanboys is hilarious. I absolutely love his music and some of his writings but I'm not a retarded cultist who worships him and fails to admit that Wagner was, in fact, pretty degenerate. Idolatry is silly, don't do it.
>>23324177You better be careful while drowning in Wagnerian abyss, there is a great chance that your body gets raped into oblivion. After "that" there is no coming back.
>>23326155>>23326163>>23326144Your a complete moron. I am well versed in the circumstances behind Tristan's composition. You used the word "fucking", which is what I was in the strongest terms objecting to, but this is simply indicative of the nether regions where your mind resides. You are a degenerate. "Dick riding" -- perhaps this language could be excused if you were from the ghetto, instead of an e-Cath larper harping about degeneracy, a fool trying to waste everyone's time.You have no respect for what is sacred. Go back to your Marquis de Sade masturbator books. At the end of the day there's a simple explanation for your and those like you who hate Wagner: you are a slave envious of someone who achieved real freedom.
>>23326144Yes, Wagner is harmonically further along than Mozart and Beethoven, but they all pushed their harmony forward. As soon as you criticise Wagner on the grounds of his dissonance you have to do the same for Mozart, whose music, though in briefer periods, was astounding in its almost atonal experiments. The difference of degree doesn't change the point.
>>23326155That anon meant the relationship was never consummated. They were romantically affiliated, it's extremely well known and there's no need to post wikipedia extracts, but as far as you or I know Wagner never slept with his patron's wife. Nothing degenerate about having unconsummated romantic feelings.
>>23326163That's a Marquis de Sade quote. Don't know why it's attributed to Wagner, who always stressed the importance of love as the prime motive in sex.
>>23326272The anon’s either a dishonest troll or an ignoramus for falling for that quote. In either case his campaign against “degeneracy” is not legitimate and he’s merely following (evil, but common) impulses to spread nonsense online
>>23326226Sorry, I don't take cultists seriously.>>23326243>but they all pushed their harmony forwardThe difference being that Wagner's Tristan is the furthest tonality goes before breaking apart. Perhaps only rivalled by Elektra, but Strauss was obviously influenced by Wagner.
>>23326337Undoubtedly now you seethe and cope, tactfully using smug understatement to conceal it
>>23326386Whatever you say, dickriding cultist lol
>>23326409>lolNever say "lol" when there's no good reason to laugh, the only explanation is to hide the seethe. This is pretty basic tell. You're really not so good at this, are you? >dickriding cultistStop speaking the degenerate patois of ghetto, then you can come back and complain about degeneracy.If you think admiring a great man makes one a "cultist" (a meaningless 20th century term by the way), then everyone should be a cultist, rather than a smug mediocrity.
>>23326422You can stop seething now, pseud cultist lol
>>23326423>No, your mom's fat!Look, I know I hurt you and I'm sorry, but sometimes you need wounds to grow
>>23324342Yes, Wagner wrote things. Stupid fuck.
>>23326433>still seething
>>23326337>The difference being that Wagner's Tristan is the furthest tonality goes before breaking apart.Yes, and? This doesn't change the point about dissonance.
>>23326460Forgive me for my ignorance, I'm an ESL, but don't you usually call fictional literary works in ordinary form "prose"? I know Wagner wrote essays and philosophical stuff, but I didn't know they count as "prose".
>>23325325>Nothing wrong with that.Thats just plain facetious.
>>23326594The point is that it's in no way comparable to what Mozart (whom you mentioned) and Beethoven did. It's way, way more extreme, and "pushing tonal boundaries" is not something Mozart is exactly "famous for" (which is also what you've claimed). In some way, yes, but there's about 3-5 things you could say for him or Beethoven that they are much more associated with.
>>23326599Don't try to reason with cultists, it's a fruitless endeavor. They're always dishonest or straight up lie.
>>23326600>The point is that it's in no way comparable to what Mozart [...] didIt's exactly comparable, they're using dissonance for the same reason, both indulging in it for its own sake, sometimes not that far apart in the degree of dissonance. Mozart is extremely famous for his dissonances, that belongs to the well known attributes of his genius. As far as general harmony is concerned, there is no conservatism in Mozart or Beethoven. They are moving forward, expanding the expressive possibilities of music as much as possible, so it is inevitable that music like Tristan would arise after them, especially after Beethoven. For hundreds of years music was moving to the harmony of Wagner and Liszt.
>>23326596Apologies, I shouldn't have been rude. Prose means any writings that isn't in verse.
>>23326693Thanks for clearing that up.
