Anyone who is a practicing Catholic knows that there is a crisis in the Catholic Church, and that the recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemous. What books should one read to understand this, and what the answer to this crisis is? I've been conservative Novus Ordo for a while but I'm slowly drifting more trad. What are we thinking of Leo's writings so far?Books I'm planning to read:>The Destruction of the Christian Tradition by Rama P. Coomaraswamy>The Great Facade: The Regime of Novelty in the Catholic Church from Vatican II to the Francis Revolution by Christopher Ferrara>Marcel Lefebvre by Bernard Tissier de Mallerais>The Second Vatican Council - An Unwritten Story by Robert DeMattei
>>24867641I don’t know how this stuff doesn’t just cause you to become a lapsed Catholic like me. The gates of hell shall not prevail, right? So if the church lacks authority…
>>24867641It's not the first time we had a bad hierarchy.The Church has kind of a cyclical history. We have times of decandence and times of recovery. Whenever the Church is in a great crisis, great saints appear to lead it forward.In two big examples:The Aryan Heresy and Saint Athanasius (plus others).The Avignon Papacy and Saint Catherine of Siena (plus others).
>>24867649Reading the Bible and the Saints is what causes me to hold on. We know that before the end of the world that the Gospel will spread to all corners of the earth, that there will be a great falling away and apostasy, and that the Antichrist will come. We have seen the evangelization of most of the earth to one degree or another, and we have seen Christendom steadily erode into nothingness. Everything I see aligns with this. I think we're at a stage where many buildings that say 'Catholic' are just apostate for all intents and purposes, in line with the general great apostasy. The Church will be punished just like Israel was by the Lord for its unfaithfulness to the Covenant until we repent, unless it's truly the end of the world.Are these shepherds at the Vatican true shepherds or false shepherds? I remain agnostic, as no one has declared them to be false shepherds, but I have grave concern about their behavior, but I know that promises were given to Peter. If Judah could lack a king for centuries, and Christ still come to fulfill the promise to David, a rupture in the Petrine office isn't entirely inconceivable.
>>24867641Robert DeMattei had written a book about this.I think Scott Hahn has too, right? Or was it Peter Kreeft?
>>24868068It seems like Hahn is drifting trad over time.
>>24867641One more book! One more rule! One more addition to the catchesim! One more Vatican summit! One more change to the doctrine of salvation! One more man made thing! Then it will be complete and perfect!
>>24868098Sorry, it was not Hahn, it was Trent Horn.
>>24868111This is one of those passages that looks okay in theory but then when you see what it means in practice, it's terrible.
>>24867641There is some literature out there about disagreeing with the pope for sure.
>>24868350We shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater and go heretic just because the hierarchy is not ideal, like Luther did.
>>24868358But Luther was a christian and jesus is the baby. Saul’s kike “church” is the bath water.
>>24868363This is not /his/ for those idiotic kind of takes.
>>24868387No, this is /lit/, where literature is respected. Proclamations by some pedophile in a dress about the world as recently as 1975 is not literature. I suggest you take your ass to /his/ and /pol/ where you can cry about your political theatre you call a church. The rest of us Christians will rely on the gospel, thank you.
>>24867641I think Leo is kind and well-meaning but ultimately ineffectual. It doesn't help that he's LITERALLY a Boomer. I think he's very obtuse and doesn't appreciate the magnitude of the crisis, multiple crises, really, facing Christendom. We have problems in the Holy Land. We have problems in Europe. We have problems in Africa.He's not decisive enough, I think. Frankly, not ferocious enough. The Church could badly use a wartime consigliere and instead we've been given a man who's almost peaceful to a fault.It makes me long for a guy like John Paul. John Paul was a bad motherfucker. Even when he erred like in >>24868194 he was still decisive, and he DID topple the Soviet Union without firing a shot. I just can't imagine Leo walking into Soviet Poland with all that bravado like John Paul did.
>>24867641https://vaticancatholic.com/The works of Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp.The works of Garrigou-Lagrange, OP. I used to be a Catholic. But it's just not rational. Just because it's the most successful and compelling cult in history doesn't mean it's the truth. It's truth doesn't set you free it makes you a slave to fear. And if you're not afraid of hell then I don't think you understood it.
>>24868550It’s remarkable that you can swap out Christianity for Islam and you would sound exactly like a Sunni preacher. You are all very sick people and I’m happy that capitalism has obliterated your insane ancient idols.
>>24867641More book recommendations for you, OP:>The Problems with the Other Sacraments: Apart from the New Mass by Rama Coomaraswamy>Infiltration by Taylor Marshall>The Voice of the Trumpet by David Allen WhiteAs a Catholic I say Rama Coomaraswamy is more than enough. Irrefutable and universally hated by Novus Ordo cucks and wannabe Traditionalists alike, he was right on everything. His letter exchange with Mother Teresa is hilarious.
>>24868113Trent Horn? I thought he loved Vatican II
>>24868350The Reformation is literally what caused our modern decline
>>24867641I miss the tradcath thread, it was actually one of the only good threads on this awful board.
>>24868550I think we expect too much of the hierarchy and expect too little of ourselves. What we need is a Catherine of Siena. Sometimes recovery is not top-down but bottom-up.>>24869611There are different ways of interpreting Vatican II...He has written a book called "Confusion in the Kingdom: How 'Progressive' Catholicism Is Bringing Harm and Scandal to the Church"
>>24868350Luther is not the answer. Luther succeeded in tearing apart a united Christian civilization and struck at the foundations of Christian piety and practice in his relentless attacks on penance, good works and above all (and most blasphemously) on the sacrificial nature of the Mass. True Catholics will look to people like Savonarola as heroes of the faith, not heretics like Luther who were too prideful to repent from obvious novelties and errors stemming from his own neuroticism.A Sedevacantist does not reject any Catholic dogma and believes in the Papacy, he only opposes the numerous errors and semi-Modernism of the post-Conciliar Popes and concludes they are no true Pope at all. Same with Trads except they recognize the Pope. Much different than Protestant errors
>I'm a Catholic, but reject papal authorityNo, you're a Protestant. Welcome, brothers!
>>24869710Sedevacantists don’t resist papal authority, only the so-called authority of anti-Pope imposters.
>>24869715Six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.
>>24867641Is this how Catholics felt during the Pornocracy?
>>24869708>"On every level except physical I respect the Papacy"You're a prot.
>>24869740>"On every level except physical I respect the Papacy"Audibly kekd
>>24869620A large part of our problems in the post Vatican II period came from Protestant influence, even.Downplaying popular piety, for instance.Or the adoption by some of the "higher critical methods", something without real evidence and very faddish but that eroded the faith of some clergy.
I'm leaving the Catholic church. I was thinking about how Christ knew Judas would betray him, went down a rabbit hole and the Calvinists won me over. I like how intellectual their faith is, too. They seem more willing to talk theology than us. Not to say we're not intellectual, just that nobody in my church ever discusses theology and everyone seems to get mad if you ask any questions.
>>24869852You are worse than German Bishops
>>24867641A 'sedecavantist' is just a heretic who is still attached to the material substance of the Church while rejecting the spiritual teachings. That's all there is to it.
>>24869860Nta but whats wrong with German bishops?
>>24869901There are some good ones, but in general, they are terrible. They don't really believe in Church teaching in many areas. The most famous example being in sexual morality.For example, once someone introduced himself as the "representative of German Bishops" to which Pope Francis (of all people) questioned "are you Catholic"?And the problem is, due to how German Bishops are chosen, it is hard to improve their Church medium term. Given their quality, I imagine that given the poor quality of their clergy their Seminaries are complete trash and if someone wants to have good formation they have to go to France or something. And they have a huge vocation crisis already.The only solution would be to treat Germany as "mission territory" and send foreign priests there.
>>24869901The German Bishops are some of the liberal in the world. There is a movement there known as the Synodal Path (Synodale Weg) that wants to push for ideas like women’s ordination, reforming the Church’s sexual ethics, allowing married priests, blessings for sodomites, etc. They also don’t dismiss employees at their churches anymore for having same-sex partners or ‘spouses’ anymore. It’s an utterly apostate part of the Church. They even bless sodomites officially now since early this year
>>24869925Hm. Thanks for the insight anon :)
>>24869925>They don't really believe in Church teaching in many areas.Nonsense
>>24869872What heresies do Sedevacantists espouse? Religious indifferentism? Religious liberty? Salvation outside of the Church? Oh wait these are all heresies espoused in the post-Conciliar Church
>>24869852I left years ago, best thing I've ever done.
How many years without a Pope does it have to be before Sedevacantists call it a day?
Cristina Campo, Gli imperdonabili
>>24870230Half of young, male internet Catholics have never actually been confirmed. It's a LARP. It's probably closer to 90% for Orthobros.
>>24870430They can't realistically be confirmed anyways because they likely do not have access to a valid Priest assuming Sedevacantism is true, lol
Every single time
>>24870430Source: your ass
>>24870484I'm a cradle Catholic. I don't see adult converts as particularly uncharitable. Or more uncharitable than us.But they tend to be far better educated in theology than cradle Catholics. We, cradle Catholics, tend to be poorly catechized on average.
>>24870484I've always thought these kinds of arguments were disingenuous. *Does* the Archon of Constantinople's sermon imply that women shouldn't have drivers' licenses? If a religious text supports ultra-conservative moral norms, that doesn't say anything about the truth or falsehood of the text itself. The implicit argument here is: "Social liberalism is true and righteous, therefore a religious text/tradition that arrives at conclusions contrary to social liberalism is false."
the pope is basedshut up larper
>>24870508I think it more of a status game. Some cultural Catholics dislike some converts because the converts take the fate more serious than "just be nice".In my country, something even weirder happened. Catholic laity suddenly started to pray the rosary in droves. Cradle Catholics with a cold faith suddenly injected with this devotion. And this got some Catholic people angry, because those rosary praying people were mostly apolitical rather than fighting for socialism.
Christianity is a fabricated religion. Youre all sheep being herded.
>>24870484>acting like it’s an either/orThe convert probably understands his faith and its history more.
>>24870541The plain facts of the matter is that our modern world, basically the entire Postwar Era, IS deeply un-Christian in a fundamental way, and Christianity, including Catholicism, HAS been compromised to a large extent, and subverted, and undermined.To be a truly faithful Catholic in the modern world is, basically, to support revolution. We need to overthrow it all. American Hegemony, the UN, the EU, all the NGOs, all of it. It all needs to go, peacefully or otherwise, because in ways both great and small it all supports a world order that is not compatible with the Social Kingship of Christ.A lot of converts seem to realize this, if not overtly then on some subconscious level. It's why they're so edgey. Frankly, I think they're right to be edgy. It's better to know about the problem, and try to work to solve it, than to stick your head in the sand and just be a heckin good person.At least I think so. I'd rather know the Truth, and be miserable and angry, than live happily in a lie.
>>24867641Thinking this is a "Catholic" specific thing is insane, society is degrading everywhere in general. The Church at some level has a natural function and that depends on in tact social structures to function. EMJ's stuff covers some specifics but marshall mcluhan and heidegger's stuff is probably the most relevant. That and just aristotle/platohttps://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Discourse-on-Thinking.pdfPg 43 of this memorial address is a great introductory essay.Charles taylor and Alisdair Macintyre are the two big catholic authors who have the best understanding of the specifics of this probably. IMO the main issues are what sort of came in the enlightenment/with modern science and descartes and that general instinct that came about from the printing press. Protestants wanted a basically totally alien view of nature that rejected the ordered creation of medeival times, and Catholics basically completely capitulated to this in the council of trent. Banning folk practices, enforcing standardized views on everyone, banning astrology, making things explicit remove the local and "pagan" component in a way to seem more respectable to protestants was a big factor.The black death killing 70-80% of people in every major city and most clergy in particular in 1350 was A HUGE factor no one ever talks about. But basically Catholic culture got disrupted, enlightenment/scientific views of reality dominated, this became the norm. Eventually all locla/particular cultures were destroyed by the financier class starting with england. There was widescale genocide of Catholic ethnics in ireland, scotland, france, germany, spain, mexico, etc. where they specifically tortured kids to stop speaking their local language to make them subservient to the state. (No one ever talks about htis for some reason)The social underpinings that orient the Church are totally destroyed, you can't just magically fix the Church in to a large extent functions in the actual context of the world. Is it largely captured by finance, NGOs, and basically is frustrated from actually clearly articulating doctrine (though it still is clear and constant by what is actually protected by the magisterium, contraception is a great example). How could it be anything else?If you want it to stop acting retarded, you have to restore order in your own coutnry. Don't be a gay pussy and blame "what mass" there is, that just is not a causal factor at all. This stuff has been going on for centuries way before vatican 2 or the new mass or whatever.
>>24870625also tl;dr the past like 4 centuries is basically the total domination of the financial class, in particular jews, who have intentionalyl destroyed all particular cultures to ensure their domination. Traditionalism is basically a psyop to get people to not talk about jews and other factors going on and actually deal with them. Thinking the new mass or vatican 2 is even a significant causal factor at all is legitimately just completely ignorant historically and insane.
>>24870541>>24870508>Some cultural Catholics dislike some converts because the converts take the fate more serious than "just be nice".kek>converts: no the pope is fake and also the Church is gay now and also you have to say Mass in Latin and also the priest must be facing in this particular direction here read this PDF it explains everything wrong with neo-Augustianism and its malevolent heresies concerning - >cultural Catholics: Yeah I've been volunteering at the food bank. Idk feels like what Jesus wants us to do >converts: what are you a fucking LIBERAL >>24870503>But they tend to be far better educated in theology than cradle Catholics.kek again>converts: look see this sermon by the Archon of Constantinople is clearly referring to a tripartite division and when held against the -- GO AWAY I DON'T WANT TO GIVE TO CHARITY FUCK YOU YOU FUCKING LIBTARD -- anyway when compared to the encyclical proffered by Pope Latinname IXIVIXI one can clearly ascertain the true nature of the -->cultural Catholics: Yeah I've been volunteering at the food bank. Idk feels like what Jesus wants us to doEvery single time. Never wrong
>>24870625>>24870630The old mass had a prayer for perfidious jews, and the church didn't start this propagating this ecumenical "elder brothers of the faith" nonsense about the kews until after Vatican ii. You had mainstream Catholic writers openly discussing the jq well into the 29th century before V2. Jews were behind many of the changes at v2 including Liturgical changes, so clearly they were threatened by it. You can't just act like a gay little faggot slave and dismiss all this as irrelevant. Traditionalism will do more good for the west than reading some German autist.
>>24870687>29th century*20th century
>>24870687im talking about the 1500s i don't give a fuck what bullshit you heard about in a youtube video that was released a year ago
>>248706761. That's a Strawman of converts 2. I'm about as much of a cradle Catholic as you could find. I just don't look down on converts
>>24870676Okay, but are the converts here right or not? Not a Catholic, so I have no stake in a particular side being correct here.
>>24869852The entire problem with Calvinism is that its logic leads it to some abhorrent places. Calvin was very smart, but the system he comes up with out of his brilliance results in a God that is, frankly, tyrannical. A God who actively wills our committing of sin specifically to damn us to Hell for His own satisfaction.I think there's a reason so many Christians who become atheists come from various strains of Calvinism. I wouldn't want to worship Calvin's God. The Catholic view of God taking a much more libertarian approach to the governance of human affairs feels more just, to me.
>>24870774Catholic believe in predestination too.
>>24870803Catholics believe that God is omniscient, and thus knows everything a human being is going to do for their entire life. This is because God sees all of time in a single glance. But this is not the same as God ACTIVELY WILLING humans to do certain things, including sin. God certainly manipulates the world, and sooner or later His will is always done. But humans have freedom to act. They have free choice of the will. Numerous Doctors of the Church have expounded on this, including both Augustine and Aquinas.One of the great hallmarks of Who God Is is that there's a lot of things God COULD do, but He CHOOSES not to. God could strip us of our free will and rule us as automatons. But He chooses not to, because God is kind and merciful and benevolent.
>>24870774Well nowadays the Reformed tradition often solves this by just never mentioning Hell. I was just at a retreat where most of the clergy were reformed and it had a ton of talks and the word Hell or judgement didn't get used a single time. It wasn't all bad, but I did wonder how much of this "you are always worthy," and unconditional self-regard comes from modern psychology. In the old Eastern Hours you praise God for not destroying you in your sleep upon waking and pray things like:>O spotless, undefiled, incorrupt, immaculate, pure Virgin, Lady Bride of God, who by thy wondrous conceiving hast united God the Word to man, and joined the outcast nature of our race to heavenly things, O only hope of the hopeless, and succour of the embattled, the ready help of them that have recourse to thee, and refuge of all Christians: abhor me not, the sinner, the accursed one, who have altogether made myself unprofitable by shameful thoughts, words, and deeds, and with the heartsease of life's pleasures am become a thrall in mind. But as the Mother of the man-befriending God, do thou, in man-befriending wise, take pity upon me a sinner and prodigal, and receive my supplication, offered thee on unclean lips. And using thy boldness as a mother, entreat thy Son, our Master and Lord, that He may open even unto me the loving compassions of His goodness, and that, overlooking mine innumerable trespasses, He would turn me to repentance, and make me the approved doer of His commandments. And be thou ever with me, as thou art merciful, and compassionate, and the lover of good, being in this life a fervent protectress and help, to defend me from the assaults of adversaries, and guide me unto salvation; and in the hour of my departure, to care for my wretched soul, and drive far from it the dark countenances of evil demons; and in the terrible day of judgment, to deliver me from eternal torment, and show me forth as an heir of the unspeakable glory of thy Son and our God. This be my lot, O my Lady, most holy Theotokos, by thy mediation and help, through the grace and love for man of thine Only-begotten Son, our Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ, to Whom is due all glory, honour, and worship, with His Father which is without beginning, and His All-holy and good and life creating Spirit, now and ever, and unto ages of ages. Amen.
>>24870859You know, this reminds me of a question I've always had. Why do Protestants always attack Marian devotions as some sort of specifically Roman Catholic and later "Medieval" thing when Eastern and Oriental churches have if anything even more prayers to Mary and normally put her where the Cross is in Latin-descended churches, right at the center (Christ as God being in the ceiling; I think the idea is to showcase the Incarnation up front and the deity of Christ when you look up IIRC).
>>24870875Rhetorics.It is one thing to attack something only Rome has.It is another to attack something all the Apostolic churches have.If they attack Rome only, it feels like Rome is an exception, rather than being the same as all Apostolic churches.
>>24870707>are the converts here right or not?the point is that the converts do nothing but bicker over the minutiae of Catholic theology while culturals know that the minutiae aren't really important. like, which matters more, feeding the poor or whether or not the priest is facing the right way>inb4 no it's very important if we say this phrase vs that phrase in latin vs english in this specific mass when the priest is wearing the -
>>24870903>cultural CatholicsStatistically speaking, they donate less often to charity than mass-going Catholics.A lesser knowledge of theology doesn't make you more charitable.Neither does defaming a group of people you don't know just because they are too conservative for your tastes.And again, I'm a cradle Catholic.
Also, I wonder if Jesus would be like.>Nope, no converts. Bloodline Catholics only, please. And no need for piety, just focus on the social part. We are a Bloodline secular NGO now.
>>24870945when I say "cultural catholics" I don't mean "raised in the faith and left it," I mean "not an adult convert">a lesser knowledge of theology doesn't make you more charitable never said it didn't>you're defaming I don't care>because they're conservative!!liberals do this too but there's way less liberal adult converts than conservative adult converts, and way way way way less online liberal adult converts than online conservative adult converts, who care less about the faith than they care about looking "heckin BASED" to other anonymous posters online
>>24870993>I don't careVery charitable
>>24870903I am a cradle Catholic. I find that many cradles are actually what you describe, pharisees who go to mass and do the motions for tha culcha and would probably just be agnostic liberals if they weren’t Mexican/Irish/Italian and liked staring at pretty paintings. Many don’t even know you can’t take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin or truly believe in the presence of Christ’s body and blood within.Meanwhile most converts I’ve met are typically very intelligent, devoted, and active people who actually show Christ through their works and the way they live their lives. Also they often know way more about Catholicism and church history than I do, and that’s definitely not a bad thing.
>>24870962>jesus: so you're dead. Catholic, that's good. let's look at your life. what did you do for your fellow man?>heckin based online catholic anon: I defended the Church! I told everyone everyone everyone the pope was fake and gay!>jesus: you didn't volunteer at the soup kitchen? organize a donation drive for a charity? dig a well somewhere? did you do anything like that at all? what did you do for your fellow man?>heckin based online catholic anon: oh oh I made a lot of glitchwave edits of icons interspersed with paintings of crusaders over footage of crying faggots! And I did a lot of posts about how the pope is fake and gay!
>>24871007>I defamed people because they were too pious and were not bloodline Catholics. I tried my best to make the Church hostile to converts, specially those who disagreed with my liberal politicsBravo. And I'm a cradle Catholic, my family comes from a region that has been Catholic for over 1,600 years without ever being Protestant or anything else after that
>>24871007>heckin based online catholic anon: oh oh I made a lot of glitchwave edits of icons interspersed with paintings of crusaders over footage of crying faggots! And I did a lot of posts about how the pope is fake and gay!Gave me a good laugh. Sometimes these people are so pitifully educated they don't even know about devotions to saints or Maryt. born Catholic
>no it's really important that we're heckin BASED online because... because... uh... >I think feeding the poor and things like that is way more important than bickering over whether or not the pope is fake and gay >FUCKING LIBERALLmfao
>>24871054You are defaming converts, calling them uncharitable without any evidence and trying to make the Church more hostile to those who genuinely want to convert.People like you are the kind of people who make people not eager to go to Church.I wonder what Jesus thinks about people who cause scandal and makes them want to leave the Church.
>>24871061>trying to make the Church more hostile to those who genuinely want to convertI don't want converts who are converting because they think the Church is heckin based and heckin trad and not because they genuinely believe it to be true>inb4 but but but you can't know that what if they Right, yeah>dropped the liberal thingVery funny that when I say "feeding the poor is important" you immediately assume I must be liberal therefore wrong. Literally what I said in >>24870676 . Looks like you realized how fucking stupid you sounded and tried to move on. Log off and go volunteer>oh yeah oh yeah well why aren't youI am, my shift starts in about 30 but there's always traffic so I gotta leave now. Homeless shelter in my city. Go ahead and call me liberal and seethe etc, I'll be back in about 4 hours
>>24871088The complaint about converts always come from liberals who complain they are too conservative. And you have already made those anti-convert posts tons of times here. You are defaming them because of that.Jesus hang out with publicans and prostitutes to convert them. But you want to exclude people based on their politics by creating a story on your head that they are not being sincere.Do you think Jesus wants the Church to be hostile to new converts depending on how you feel about their politics?>I gotta leave now. Homeless shelter in my cityReminds me of a Bible verse:>The Pharisee took up his position and spoke this prayer to himself, ‘O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity—greedy, dishonest, adulterous—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week, and I pay tithes on my whole income.’
>>24871007Actually, I believe before anything else, Jesus would ask>Did you believe that I am Risen?This is why cultural Catholics are so easy to mock. So many of them are frauds. They treat the Church like some ethnic thing. They don't believe in the Incarnation. They don't believe in the Resurrection. They don't believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist."These people honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me."Charity is good, but only if motivated by true Faith. Atheists can do charity, too. We do charity not to pat ourselves on the back, but because Jesus Himself said He would be in the midst of the poor.It's either all about Jesus Himself or it's worthless.
>>24867671Do you need somebody else to tell you that those in the Vatican are false shepherds ?By their fruits you shall know them
>>24871054To be honest, part of the problem is a disconnect between the needs of the new generation of people raised outside the Church, or very loosely attached to a church in an environment of moralistic therapeutic deism, who come wanting real formation and a deep intellectual alternative to modernity and find churches merely going through the rout motions. I don't really blame parish priests here since they can only do so much on their own, especially as their numbers dwindle. The problem is that people think you can be a secular liberal pursuing worldly goods 95% of your week and a Christian the other 5%, and so mentors for actual formation are few and far between.Just for example, it's pretty much impossible to be a lay member of an order in most places now because they have dwindled so much. Numbers are deceiving because many people will report a faith on a census even if they have very little to do with it on a day to day basis. I think people have an overly sunny vision of the past as well, that even in the era of Christendom it was perhaps only a third of society who held to strong piety, but today it's probably more like 1%, and so when new people enter the Church doors they are desperate for a life raft but then find it sinking.
>>24871088Pretty sure we got that you were a lib from the 10 posts seething about Chuds and conservative converts, not from the stuff about the poor.I have also never experienced what you're talking about except in online spaces. Normally the zealous converts who are into theology are also the ones most into charity and outreach.
>>24871324That was a pretty good diagnosis. This is the biggest opportunity the Church has had in over a century. Smart, driven young people want to join the Church.And the frustrating thing is: parts of the hierarchy are fumbling it.I go to a NO Mass. I love the Charismatic movement. I dont even know where there is the TLM in my region or even if there is one. But many young people like the TLM. And what happens? Boomers go out of their way to persecute them.They want clarity, they want guidance. And then they see parts of the hierarchy trying to change Church morality in order to please atheist liberals. Or maybe they are sincere and dont believe in Church teaching, which is not much better.I remember some Irish leader some years ago saying he would rather have no seminarians than to have seminarians who believed in Church teaching on sexuality. Well, his wish was granted and no one wants to be a seminarian in Ireland anymore and their super old priests are overworked.Let's see how things change from now on. I sense an improvement. Let's pray so that the Pope can be wise.
>>24867641>the recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemous.Anon, since when has this not been the case?
>Born into happy-clappy ecumenical church>Didn't even know the TLM existed until adulthood>Find SSPX chapel short drive away>Literally moved to tears>Wtf why was this never talked about, and why would the church go away from this? >Angry I'd made it as old as I did before discovering TLM and want to learn more about the faith. >Read a collection of Papal Documents >Hey wait a minute>This is incongruous with what I'd been taught previously. >Get told "No it's not, this is the same thing" from the hierarchy when it's obviously different. >Also the TLM is evil and we're banning it. >Flirt with sede stuff. >"Yeah so some, or all, of the ordinations / consecrations are invalid- and if that's the case there's no hierarchy able to validly elect a True pope">????>Angered by the NO>Can't just ignore the inconsistencies that have been pointed out >No tenable or understandable future for as a Sede. So like, what now????
>>24871463The SSPX is not Sede.
>>24871464I never claimed they were.
>>24870625>Protestants wanted a basically totally alien view of nature that rejected the ordered creation of medeival timesElaborate
>>24871505It's complicated but this is a understood difference between Catholic views of reality & islamic and protestant. The general category it falls under is 'analogia entis' or the analogy of being. You'll see a bunch of people talking about this still and thomists bring it up but it's removed from the medeival context. The idea there is basically through interacting with created things through the analogy of understanding their effects we can understand their cause, ie God to an extent.This is why we built gothic cathedrals Chesterton has a good short essay on them that captures the vibe.https://www.online-literature.com/chesterton/alarms-and-discursions/1/It's again just the idea everything created is at root God and in a way particularly reveals something about God. In medieval times this was expressed through hierarchically ordered reality, things like the outer spheres which were moved by angels (Benedict Ashley still defends this) and impacting us through astrology was just kind of common sense. It was used for everything and was just part of their worldview, as it was for the greeks. This also extends toward the national variation/litrugical vairation. Each particular people express their being in their own way so it's okay to have liturgical or even theological variation expressed in different ways. Folk saints, folk traditions were just okay. The desire for absolute clarity on everything was something that basically came about after the death of medieval culture w/ the black plague and the technological shifts like the printing press. Protestants attacked Catholics for being superstitious because of the lack of clarity on certain things and their tolerance of the folk traditions. (Because of the sort of more abstract universal worldview the printing press/enlightenment/scientific revolution kind of created there was a demand for this, there really just wasn't before) The whole "witch" thing and attacking them only came about after protestants because Catholics were basically fine with folk practices, they may have not been like huge fans but it wasn't a problem. St. Albert the Great (doctor of the Church) himself talks about carving sigils of planets into clay and using it to channel the power of the planets. All medicine used astrology/sigils.Basically Catholics totally gave into this "Universalist/scientific" culture Protestantism came from and rejected the medieval worldview. Again a huge part of this was like active intentional genocide of Catholic cultures that occurred in nearly every fucking country and no one ever talks about it or cares. It was specifically establishing universal rule over things basically so banks could do usury and control everyone.The actual end of the "universal intelligibility" is just bankers destroying every culture and that's where we all now. The attitudinal shift the counter reformation was basically just giving in totally to that. (not that it's doctrinally wrong)
>>24871592Cont. As I said before the key thing is this isn't really a Catholic specific thing. This is a general historical trend that has actually occurred before.Heidegger's analysis of the Greek view of aletheia going to the roman verum also fits the general attitude quite well I think. Mcluhan attributed that greek shift to the phonetic alphabet destroying oral culture and it seems like the printing press/cheap paper basically did the same thing in europe around ~1500We are now coming to the end of that failed imperial shift. It would kind of just be silly to expect the Church to be functioning well.
>>24871592>It's again just the idea everything created is at root GodHuh?>>24871592>Protestantism came from and rejected the medieval worldview.What did they reject specifically?
>>24871592>St. Albert the Great (doctor of the Church) himself talks about carving sigils of planets into clay and using it to channel the power of the planets. All medicine used astrology/sigils.this sounds like tiktok girls with their crystals and astrology my inclination is to be dismissive, because I can't make any real sense of anything you just said except that protestantism bad because they reject the medieval worldview, which is apparently in your opinion an embrace of superstition, but also one of science and worldly reality.hope you post more because i'm generally interested
>>24871950i reread, and has misinterpreted what you said about the scientific worldview.how do you compare this with the catholic church today affirming evolution, with most protestants being in favor of a creationist point of view?
>>24870568What religion isnt a fabricated religion
>>24867641> Rama P. Coomaraswamylol
Despite my pessimism about Leo I am willing to continue giving him a shot. He is the Pope, after all. And he seems, at least, less dramatically absurd than Francis was.
>>24871943>Huh?rooted in, typo. this is just normal thomism.>What did they reject specifically?That good and beautiful things in creation can reveal an aspect of God to us. For them like muslims causliaty is largely disconnected from God and basically any regular cause we see is basically just a matter of God doing it directly. This comes from their rejection of Aristotle/greek philosophy, and again basically trying to set up some deterministic scheme where you can say what "everything" is and measure everything by.>>24871954It's not being pro or anti science, that's why I recommend reading heidegger/mcluhan this stuff isn't really understandable from a "Catholic" theological perspective or something because it's not a theological issue. The issue is having a fundamental stance towards reality that everything should be systematized and ordered and anything that cannot fit into that system doesn't exist or is evil. Heidegger calls this the technological attitude. Mcluhan considers it something that arises from the printing press partly it's a combination of both. It's not anti-science it's anti science as "the only arbitor of what's valuable" or any arbiter of that. This is a position some authors have talked about, the radical orthodoxy people like pickenstock's after writing. Any actual medieval history will touch on this. This is something modern theologians talk about but I haven't read much modern stuff but most of them don't go all the way.Fr. Benedict Ashley was a thomist I'm a big fan of who explicitly argues we can know through natural reason that planets are moved by angels as the medievals and aristotle argued and those arguments still hold, which I quite like he was rather unafraid to state true things clearly. Any serious medievalist will be aware of this and touch on it to an extent.I actually got into it reading about the history of public education and how it was basically always used to oppress local cultures and folk traditions. >which is apparently in your opinion an embrace of superstitionTraditional cultures that had traditions that were rooted in their particular place, language, people, etc were the norm for like all of human history. It wasn't an embrace of superstition but rather a rejection of "organizing everything into an absolute system" the clergy wasn't necessarily a fan of some of the stuff people did or even much of it, but they did find some of it quite good and didn't have the means or interest to destroy everything else. If all of human culture until like now functioned on that stuff, the Church functioned with it happily using astrology regularly basically up until the 18th century including by doctors of the Church... Then we get rid of it... and things go to shit?
>>24872108It happened at the same time as those Catholic ethnics being genocided, protestants were accusing Catholics of being superstitious then torturing their kids to get them to stop using the language. It's just part of this same technological instinct where everything most be extracted and subjected to this totalizing system and anything that does not fit in it is destroyed.I think the easiest way to look at this is linguistically. These were the languages before the french revolution. They explicitly and intentionally destroyed them including genociding the Catholics in the vendee as a way of asserting one dominant culture and ensuring they don't have rebel groups pop up. It's the same thing the prussians did to Catholics, and the english did to the highland scot catholics. That started as far back as like 1608 and even arguably back to the late 14th century in ireland. The point is more, if you allow particular individual cultures. GRANT that "Hey I won't understand all of this or be able to systematize it, and that's fine." you will get that spooky/weird folk stuff that people cringe at now, That stuff just comes up and the only way you squash it is by straight up destroying cultures. There has been an instinct to do that going quite far back to the end of the medieval period, but different technological shifts made it far easier (printing press caused the reformation, telegram/railway caused the national suppression of local cultures in a more final way, ww1 and ww2 mass war was used to destroy any local sovereign countries) and now we are all basically just dominated by financiers. That is how the will to universalize and have abstract systems running everything ends up and how it always ends up. Catholicism just structurally, having local priests and bishops who can evaluate what's functioning in that culture or not is just kind of adequate like, the system makes sense. But hey we've destroyed all those cultures, and now everything is retarded and dysfunctional and ran by banks. How to actually get out this is a separate question (i think there are good answers to it) but as to why is the Church like it is? Like are you kidding me? We are in a techno dystopia and have basically just been raped by tyrants for over a century Most of this language destruction was fairly recent. only after the telegram/railway was it really effective around the time of the civil war. So yeah the Church isn't going to be great. You are in a dystopia, you've had your culture destroyed and robbed, you are poisoned, you are raped, you are constantly being degraded and this applies to like everyone alive now. How the hell do you expect anyone to do anything reasonable? Is our ability to even reason not rooted in our having a culture and place and people that orients us? How could it be otherwise?
>>24871416I go to a NO Mass. I love the Charismatic movement. I dont even know where there is the TLM in my region or even if there is one.You are not Catholic.
>>24868550>he DID topple the Soviet Union without firing a shotDelusional.
>>24872108>>24872110You put into words what I didn't think to express. The main reason I have been attracted to the Bible were the mannerisms, customs and behaviors of ancient man. I knew that the root of the solution is connected to ancient/medieval man. Theology is secondary for today's issues, the issues are sociological and metaphysical, eroding of what makes man a man. No Christian I have met has ever recognized this issue. Only some New Age types could grasp the issue somewhat in a corrupted manner. Strangely, Hideo Kojima mentioned the problem of eroding language, culture and people extensively in Metal Gear Solid V: The Phantom Pain. Despite being a leftist faggot, he could tell what the problem of modernity is, only through his twisted lense.Thank you and God bless you for your posts. You put things succinctly and into layman's terms what Guénon refused to do. Guénon chipped at it but from a purely metaphysical context and "objective" attitude. He left out the psychological and sociological core out entirely, maybe on purpose, maybe because he was a mathematician and couldn't conceive of them as relevant in his highly systematized approach.
>>24872110What book do you recommend by Heidegger?
>>24872153memorial address is a good introhttps://www.holybooks.com/wp-content/uploads/Discourse-on-Thinking.pdfPg 43 here it's 10 pages and is a public speech.Going deeper I'd just get a collection of his essays and read some of the short ones, some are just public speeches he gave I have no idea why people normally recommend 600 page books to start.Question Concerning Technology, What is Metaphysics, The essence of truth are relevant. What is called Thinking is a book of his that I think goes into it quite well. Gabriel Marcel also talks about similar things and I find him clearer but people also argue about his language. He's a Catholic Existentialist he has his Man against Mass Society book>>24872148thanks... now i need to play phantom pain again to remember all the stuff with language in that.
>>24872145That's something I find quite interesting with Catholics. Obviously JPII was a celeb as big as Michael Jackson at the time and he certainly played a role in the agitation of nationalist attitudes that eventually knocked down the USSR, but I really don't see where all the "JPII beat Communism!" Stuff comes from outside of patriotic poles.t.Aussie Catholic who grew up under Benedict
>>24872191He prevented the Soviets from cracking down on Solidarity by declaring he'd throw his full weight behind it, and even if necessary go to Poland to face the crackdown himself. It prevented the Soviets from stopping it as it grew in power, and it basically started to unravel the unity of the Warsaw Pact, at a time when everything else was also going wrong for the Soviets.
Can someone give me advice with regards to my faith? I’ve been considering fully converting to Christianity for a while now because I do genuinely believe in God, but I’ve never felt compelled to go to church each Sunday because I don’t feel like I’d fit in. Also, even though I’ve prayed in private and visit churches in private, I feel as though God doesn’t always listen to me when I ask for help, especially when I ended up suffering some life trauma when I asked for His protection. Lastly, I struggle with labelling myself as a Christian because I don’t go to church despite my beliefs and I’m also really sex obsessed, which I feel like is just part of who I am, so I’d feel like a fraud if I fully called myself Christian. I’m also highly suspicious of the fire and brimstone interpretation of Christianity. For reference, I grew up in a secular household that believed God existed, but didn’t practice religion.Is there any advice you’d give or literature you’d recommend to help me make sense of all of this? It feels strange to have faith, but feel as though my life is incompatible with aspects of the faith.
>>24872220It should be a step by step thing. Read a little bit more, start going to Mass (but don't go to communion until you are ready), eventually talk to a good priest.Other than by a miracle, you are not becoming an 80 years old Discalced Carmelite monk overnight.What kind of book do you want?Fundamentals of faith or something about spirituality and practice?
>>24871463Holy Orthodoxy or the Eastern Rite churches in communion with Rome?
>>24872484I guess something to help me figure out if this is for me or a vain pursuit. I don’t doubt God’s love, but I feel like I wouldn’t be welcome in traditional faith circles because my relationship with God is complicated. I guess perspectives from someone who wrestled and struggled with figuring out their spirituality, but still sought meaning in God would help.I need to know its is valid to identify as Christian when I’m not a model Christian and probably never will be.
>>24872110>and the english did to the highland scot catholicsLmao at tradcucks not understanding scottish historyThe Scots highlanders were not "based catholics", the vast majority were episcopalian protestants, not catholics, and gaelic was never wiped out by the english. Lowland scots had been suppressing the gaelic language since before the reformation
>>24872538If you believe in God deeply and don't have any doubts about God's love for you, this is a pretty easy situation.Just love God back. Other than some old monks and nuns, nobody is a "perfect Christian".I don't know if you agree with me, but I think devotional literature would help you. Saint Francis of Sales' "Introduction to the Devout Life" is a classic guide for laypeople. If you are more theoretically minded and don't want anything devotional, there is Garrigou Lagrange's "The 3 Ages of Interior Life", which is a masterpiece.(By the way, neither of them are sedes or anything of the kind, they are older than this discussion, they are just orthodox good theologians that ALL Catholics should admire, traditional or not). Francis is a Doctor of the Church. I hope Garrigou one day is declared.In regards to chastity, both of those authors treat it. The why and the how. That said, easier said than done and you will eventually fight it. And I hope you will win.If you are more literarily minded, "En Route" by Huysmans is great. There are some long winded descriptions of things and places but the spiritual part of the book is amazing and the protagonist has the same chastity issues you have.
>>24872554im sorry you've been lied to. The first actual official policy for using public schools to destroy a language was on the highland scot clans. It at the time the english speaking lowland scots who were basically dominated by english culture, but it continued through to the clearances when it was explicitly highlanders fighting for the Catholic monarch against the parliment bought out by bankers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_Establishment_Act_1616>'Inglis' be universally established, and Gaelic be obliterated because it is a main cause for the barbarity and incivility of the people of the Isles and Highlands.>Protestantism be everywhere fostered and promoted.Just like in ireland children were tortured for speaking gaelic and there was a centuries long campaign to destroy their culture. Modern day scottish people are so fucking cucked they refuse to accept this happened though, it's truly pathetic.There was some conversion among the highlanders but there was still a substantial portion that were Catholic, and they didn't really care about what religion people were. Within the same clan you'd have different variations. Western highlander clans in particular were basically largely Catholic though. (these are the ones the acts originally targeted) The lowland scots were were basically pseudo-english were the ones who enforced it. The destruction of the language and forced education was in part motivated to finally get rid of it among the highlanders
>>24872220Conviction for one's own sins expands over time. Pray. It is also good to pray the words of the saintly that they might become yours over time, even if you just pray and abbreviated morning and compline service.And pray Psalm 50 (51 in most Western Bibles) every morning and evening at least (this is said quietly by the priest at every mass, in fragment in the West and in whole in the East). Or don't. There is no formal recipe. But participating in the Liturgy of the Hours is one way to participate in the life of the Church and to become conformed to it. I will warn though that the Eastern version is really too long for lay people outside the small compline service, but the Western one is quite doable without modifications.Or try going to a retreat at a monastery if there is one near you, since their rule will give you an example.Or for some people, particularly those who have a problem quieting their mind, the Rosary or a prayer rope and the Jesus Prayer help. I also find having a prayer list to be very helpful, because when I pray for others I am reminded of my own sins and shortcomings but also of God's love, so I have people I pray for every night, as well as larger groups and events.But these are just things that have worked for me. I think the biggest thing is just sticking with a prayer rule and having it be frequent, throughout the day, but short enough to manage. I do find having a bit of a ritual for my longer night prayer is helpful. I have two small icons of Christ and the Blessed Virgin, some candles, and incense, and the prostrations help center me, but I don't always use them. With young kids, this can be particularly challenging (although it is also good to set a good example; I have had my three year old once sit through the entire 25 minute small compline service).
>>24873104BTW, I am part of an NO Western Church. IDK what a priest would say about mixing rites for the Liturgy of the Hours. Mine had done the Eastern Rite in seminary and liked it and seemed to think it was fine. There are certain things I really like about it (the dedication of each day of the week is much clearer) and other things I don't (it is too long to do often, even if you skip the kathismas), so I use the Western Hours more often.
>>24870840>sees all of time in a single glance. Did you also watch that christian guy on the streets? Forgot his name. Nice fellow.
>>24873080Presbyterian Walter Scott did more to preserve Scottish culture than the highland chiefs ever did.
>>24873182No one even knows the name of the gaelic poetsthe scottish are a completely raped people im sorry brother. James macpherson and ossian stuff rooted in actual gaelic was what actually created the world wide affection for scottish culture that was a significant part of romnaticism and even that is largely forgotten now. Napoleon and Thomas Jefferson and Walter Scott were all largely inspired by that. You can't seperate a people from their language.
>>24869715>>24869708>he only opposes the numerous errors and semi-Modernism of the post-Conciliar Popes and concludes they are no true Pope at all.How is this not just Pride, arrogance, hubris and sin to think you can interpret god's will more than the head of the church?
>>24874185There are 3 opinions of Vatican II:>It should be interpreted as being in continuity with perennial Church teaching and is not a breakI'm of this opinion>It was a break and this is badSedes and some traditionalist groups>it was a break and this is goodProgressive CatholicsOpposition to Papal policies is more or less common in the history of Catholicism. We have had anti-Popes, for example.In the case of Benedict XVI, it was an interesting thing. He was a "moderate liberal" (sorry for the political analogy) in the Church, but he saw the progressive wing growing increasingly more unhinged and had to discipline them when he was the Head of the DDF. So, later when he became the Pope, progressive Catholics more or less opposed him (and some continued to keep his books blacklisted in seminaries). Interestingly, Sedes and some Trads don't like him either because he was a "moderate liberal" (or not that moderate in the beginning of his career).
>>24869708>>24868358You haven't read Luther.
>>24869935>What seems to me white, I will believe black if the hierarchical Church so defines.>The obedient man should permit himself to be moved and directed by Divine Providence through the agency of his superior just as though he were a dead body which allows itself to be moved and handled in any way whatsoever, or as an old man’s staff which serves him who holds it in his hand wherever and in whatever way he wills./thread
>>24867641>What books should one read to understand this, and what the answer to this crisis is?To be honest with you, the answer is to reject the Papacy and become a true Orthodox Christian.For start, read about the false union of Florence.>The History of the Council of Florence by Ivan N. OstroumoffThen you can read this book by a french ex-catholic clergyman who became disillusioned with Vatican I, was an old catholic for a period and then joined the Orthodox Church.>The Papacy by Abbe Vladimir GuetteNow we are getting into the 20th century, the era of ecumenism, the first step of implementing this heresy was through the adoption of the gregorian calendar, the following book will explain how that calendar was both condemned by pan-Orthodox Councils and is scientifically inferior.>The Calendar Question by Fr Basile Sakkas The following book approaches different issues of ecumenism in the 20th century.>Against false union by Alexander KalomirosNow the final one, a collection of patristic and contemporary true Orthodox witnesses in the face of heresy.>The History of Resistance: From the Apostles to the Twentieth Century by Subdeacon Nektarios HarrisonUnrelated to the thread but I also happen to have a /lit/ discord server where we have a theology channel as well. https://discord.gg/gKyXEsef
This thread makes me think Catholics are totally insane and much of their theology is based on extrabiblical philosophical thought.
>>24874615>totally insaneNo, we're the sanest people in the modern world. It's all the rest of you guys who have gone nuts.
>>24874664so, essentially what you're saying is "you're mad and you're not like us?"if only i had started with the geeks and progressed to heidegger, i'd have found God!
>>24873080>im sorry you've been lied to. The first actual official policy for using public schools to destroy a language was on the highland scot clans. It at the time the english speaking lowland scots who were basically dominated by english culture, but it continued through to the clearances when it was explicitly highlanders fighting for the Catholic monarch against the parliment bought out by bankers.No it wasn't you retard.>DUDE 1616When James the 1st, the scottish king ruled both kingdoms?The Gentlemen adventurers of Fife were sent to colonise the gaelic western isles in the 1500s before the crowns of England and Scotland were unified>Just like in ireland children were tortured for speaking gaelic and there was a centuries long campaign to destroy their culture. Modern day scottish people are so fucking cucked they refuse to accept this happened though, it's truly pathetic.Irish children were never tortured for speaking gaelic LMAO.>There was some conversion among the highlanders but there was still a substantial portion that were Catholic, and they didn't really care about what religion people were. Within the same clan you'd have different variations. Western highlander clans in particular were basically largely Catholic though. (these are the ones the acts originally targeted) The lowland scots were were basically pseudo-english were the ones who enforced it. The destruction of the language and forced education was in part motivated to finally get rid of it among the highlandersMost highlanders were protestants. Catholics were a minority within the highlands by the time of the last jacobite rebellion. the Lowlander's weren't "controlled by the english" or "pretending to be english", they were descendents of Anglic, brittonic, dutch, german and flemish people who had always hated the highlanders. But unfortunately you tradcucks like destroying scotland's native lowland culture and embracing the gaelic ethnoLARP>>24873190>their languageScots, a germanic language is the national language of scotland. Gaelic is just as "foreign" as scots as it came from irish invaders in the 5th century.
>>24870774>I wouldn't want to>... feels more just to meWell isn't this the problem? You're making it about yourself and what you wish to believe rather than what is actually true. "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding." Amos 3:6, Isaiah 45:7, Proverbs 16:4
>>24874778>When James the 1st, the scottish king ruled both kingdoms?Yes, from london, where he lived. The nobility in general was very involved with the english prior to that as well.>Irish children were never tortured for speaking gaelic LMAO.This is actually common among the origins of all public schools, it wasn't just irish it also occurred in the US, france, and prussia. Beating and publicly humiliating children and alienating them from their parents was normal and is part of cultural homogenization. Confiscating folk instruments, even punishing certain types of folk dance and singing was just normal. This isn't seriously historically disputed at all.And just in terms of the language family, yes lowlanders speaking germanic languages and them anglicizing so they could participate in the english economy was the case. It was the elite financial class who advocated for union and pushed anglicizing stuff and people rioted about it when it originally happened. I think looking at this in terms of language family as an extension of trade and nobility networks is honestly much easier. Scotland as a single thing is sort of a anachronistic. You have anglos, birttonic celts and gaelic celts. Brittonic ones are still functioning in wales but gaelic ones are largely wiped out, due to the intentional actions of the anglo.>>24874778All of western europe (including spain/france, celtic people went all the way to greece even alexander fought them) spoke celtic languages until the romans. The national borders aren't actually the clearest metric the western scots/eastern irish, welsh and brythonic celts in northern france were actually kind of a semi-consistent group genetically because the water trade (easier to go by boat then travel by land). So "Scottish" people even as a general descriptor isn't really historical, eastern scottish people were brythonic celts, then gaelic celts (in most places), then germanic/anglo linguistically and to get the benefits from that tried to undermine the western highland culture. South eastern england had easier trade with the germans and that's where english came from quite a bit later.This kind of touches on the issue you are pointing at yes the issues were coming from the "inner scottish" stuff but linguistically those people had already been linguistically brought into the anglo/germanic world, and just had an incentive to destroy the people in their area who undermined their ability to function economically in that world. The idea the dal riata kingdom was invaders is just completely baseless historically. It was rooted in the pre-existing trade that existed among those people and there's no evidence there was ever like a transition in the populations there.All of western europe was almost exclusively celtic for millenia, including all of england.
>>24871054>the first gamer pope gets into arguments with alt right twitter users with anime profile picsPope Pius XIII 2 is going to be dabbing and flossing and posting skibidi rizz memes.
>>24874810It does also happen to be the official Catholic position. Augustine has a legendary dialogue called "On Free Choice of the Will" that is exactly what it sounds like.
>>24867641>he recent Popes have been confusing, scandalous and at times simply blasphemousPapal infallibility chud
>>24872110How is this any different from the Catholics squashing down heresies over the years, particularly the Albigensians?
>>24874832he also thinks it's limited to recent popes, kek
>>24874825>Yes, from london, where he lived. The nobility in general was very involved with the english prior to that as well.James the 1st did not live in London when he ordered the gentlemen adventuers of fife to colonise the western isles you absolute spastic. This was over five years before the union of the crowns>Confiscating folk instruments, even punishing certain types of folk dance and singing was just normal. This isn't seriously historically disputed at all.None of that ever happened in ireland or scotland>And just in terms of the language family, yes lowlanders speaking germanic languages and them anglicizing so they could participate in the english economy was the case. It was the elite financial class who advocated for union and pushed anglicizing stuff and people rioted about it when it originally happened.Lowlanders didn't adopt english because of english pressure. They were speaking english before england as a nation ever existed. The Kingdom of Northumbria spread from the Humber to the firth of forth you absolute spastic.>Dude le celtsThe """celts""" never existed. Romans never once described the people of britain as """celtic""". Celtic identity is a pathetic ethnolarp with no basis in reality. the "celtic" peoples of britain actually descend from PRE CELTIC bell beakers who adopted celtic languages in the 4th century BC. These bell beakers were genetically scandinavian which is why the populations of the british isles cluster so closely with scandinavians and dutch/north germans in genetic charts.>The idea the dal riata kingdom was invaders is just completely baseless historically. It was rooted in the pre-existing trade that existed among those people and there's no evidence there was ever like a transition in the populations there.Taig Lies>All of western europe was almost exclusively celtic for millenia, including all of england.No it wasn't. Celtic identity was invented in the 18th and 19th centuries. No Roman or Greek sources refer to the british isles as celtic. Not in any way.
>>24875069He won't respond to your apt rebuttal because he's a LARPing tradcath retard with no knowledge of actual history.
>>24874832Papal infallibility doesn’t apply to non-ex cathedra statements. Just because Pope Leo wants to worship with idolators doesn’t mean we have to follow him or think that it’s Catholic dogma now. Not even Vatican II had infallible definitions
Vatican II didn't make any dogmatic pronounciation. It was a pastoral council. But in some ways, it is binding.People malign it too much. The causes of the problems were not Vatican II. It is "Spirit of Vatican II" stuff and modernism.If anything, Vatican II even supported the universal call to holiness from Garrigou Lagrange, which is a pretty good thing.
>>24876398Thank God for John Paul, if he hadn't come along when he did I don't know where we'd be. He really does deserve his moniker of "the Great" for the help he did in saving the Church.I think it's pretty telling that Francis tried, but failed, to erase a lot of John Paul's legacy.
>>24871007>heckin based online catholic anon: I believed in you with all my heart, received the sacraments, prayed, and died within your mystical body not in a state of mortal sin >Jesus: Welcome to Heaven good and faithful servant, now, come see my mother. She talks about you a lot
>>24876398I don't think Vatican II is the problem. What I do think is the problem is after surviving two world wars and with the Soviet Union still a real threat the Church decided to not change any doctrine (duh) but softened it's messaging. The prayer for the perfidious Jew may offend Jews and Prots? Remove it. Sexual sins upset sexual revolution types? Focus on redemption and love instead of condemning them harshly. I think this is a bad move because these people the Church wants to appease will and always will hate Christ's Church on the grounds that they are evil and it is not. The Church should return to being bold and combative and I pray that day will come soon
>>24876848Hopefully the current crop of old men are the last gasp of the "Spirit of Vatican 2."
>>24876848>>24876884There is an issue of priorities too.Look, I like Ecology. I really do. I like clean water, clean air, more trees in cities, less micro plastics, etc.But you know, the core business of the Church is saving souls. It is not being a NGO. It sometimes seems like the spiritual get 2nd place to the material.
>>24867641Turmoil & Truth by Philip Trower makes a good and sober read on the historical background of the modernist tumor festering upon the Bride of Christ. >What books should one read to understand this, and what the answer to this crisis is? It's helpful to read the history of the Church and the many, many heresies and controversies that have always accompanied her right from the beginning—it was an Apostle, after all, who betrayed Our Lord, the first Pope, after all, who almost fell to the first heresy when he sided in public with the Judaizers. If the answer to the problem does not involve becoming a saint then it is of no use to you.
>>24876421John Paul II allowed Buddha idols in the Vatican, urged for praying with heathens in Redemptor Hominis, and issued in a reformed code of canon law which allowed the Eucharist to be given to non-Catholics. He’s just as big of a modernist as Paul VI and John XXIII. It’s in his name. He said that the 1986 Assisi meeting was a literal catechesis or exegesis of Vatican II. Not to mention that JP2 contributed to the abuse crisis by shielding and promoting terrible abusers. People look past him because they have been wooed by a personality cult. The reality of JP2 is him kissing the Qur’an and calling for St. John the Baptist to preserve IslamBasically every post-Conciliar Pope has been utterly terrible since Pius XII. Benedict was the best though
Thank God for Marcel Lefebvre, if he hadn't come along when he did I don't know where we'd be. He really should be given the moniker of “saint" for the help he did in saving the Church.
catholic doctrine is so at odds so much of my interpretation of christian faith. the only argument for catholicism i've ever read that's made sense to me was that it'd be better to stay within the church and seek reform. i love my catholic brothers, but you guys are just too far "out there" for me to wrap my head around. mary as intercessor, prayers to the dead, papal infallibility, levitating saints, it's just too much.
>>24877638I think his schism was a mistake, but he unironically was an instrument of God during Vatican II.You can't read the history of Vatican II without coming to the conclusion that him, Castro Mayer and Sigaud were heroic.My favorite anecdotes of Vatican II were about Sigaud. One modernist Bishop said "we should throw Sigaud to the space".In another one, a young, liberal Ratzinger was talking to a journalist about how things were getting hard to them. Unknown to them, Sigaud was in a table close by and was smiling.
And I really meant it when I say God used this trio to save the Church.I hope eventually Lefebrve gets rehabilitated and that Sigaud gets the recognition he deserves.
>>24877688>mary as intercessorLike in the Book of Revelation, saints are alive in heaven and are with God, and continue to show charity and pray for the people of God on earth. Mary as the Mother of God is the greatest of the saints and the mother of Christians. We see the deceased Jeremiah praying in 2 Maccabees, too. All Christians did this before the 1500s, even among the Orthodox and the Copts and Ethiopians>prayers to the deadThis is an ancient Christian practice. This is also in 2 Maccabees. We can find old Christian tombstones from the first centuries where the dead request prayers of passerbys.>papal infallibilitySimply, since the Pope is the head of the Church militant (Christ alone is the head of the whole Church, whether in heaven or on earth), he can act in the name of the Church as vicar of Christ and bind the faithful for the protection of the faith and is guaranteed by the promises of Christ to not be led into error on issues faith and morals. We still have lots of scandalous and evil popes, but not ex cathedra decrees against the faith.>levitating saintsGod tells Ezekiel to cook food over poop and makes Isaiah wander around and preach naked. Joshua stops the sun. Levitation is a bit tame haha
how did christ know that judas would betray him, or that peter would deny him if predestiny wasn't a thing? it seems to me that if it wasn't predestiny, then it was god interfering with their free will. are we able to resist god? if no, how does one explain an opposition to irresistible grace?i don't have much of an understanding of catholicism or calvinism, but this came to mind and i'd like to hear some thoughts on it, or even criticisms of the questions themselves.
>>24877743im a very indecisive and doubtful person in general, feeling being drawn to god has me overwhelmed with the choices one must make. i have so much prayer and study ahead of me. i may never get back to nonfiction ever again.
>>24877747Just because God knows something will happen, doesn’t mean that he forces it to happen. Judas made his choice and damned his soul. God saw it in eternity without compelling his hand.
>>24877752Study the Scriptures carefully. The Ignatius Study Bible is wonderful
>>24877761>Just because God knows something will happen, doesn’t mean that he forces it to happen.that's hard to wrap your head around.
>>24877847i guess it's the experience of time that makes it's confusing.
>>24877632Compared to John XXIII and Paul VI he was a lifesaver. I've heard from so many older Catholics who lived through the period about how John Paul came along at just the right moment to save the whole thing from collapsing.Was he perfect? Of course not. But he was exactly what the Church needed in that moment. Hell, people had literally stopped praying the Rosary until he revived it as a devotion.We wouldn't be in the comparatively-better shape we're in today without Lefebvre, as >>24877638 says. But we wouldn't be there without John Paul, either. You talk to any older Catholic and they'll tell you.
>>24878216>Hell, people had literally stopped praying the Rosary until he revived it as a devotion.The post Vatican II era was a heck of a drug
>>24867641Catholicism is false
>sedevacantistYou're a Protestant. Just admit it.
>>24867641Bumping for sedevacantist literary interest.
>>24870840But I thought according to divine simplicity God's knowledge is God's will?
>>24879275Sedevacantists believe that Christ established the Papacy, but there is currently no true Pope. No Protestant believes this. Orthodox believe that the Bishop of Rome is a heretic and thus he has departed from the primacy. Yet they are not Protestant for this.
>>24867641If this is erroneous or untrue then I pray God stops this from spreading and He punishes me alone. The problem with Vatican II and subsequent Church documents citing Nostra Aeteta specifically is that the Magisterium cannot talk about other religions' members as a group infallibly. The Church can say that statistically Muslims believe, or intend to believe, in our God, but without saying if Muhammed's Qu'ran speaks about God accurately then you cannot say that.>>24868111Imagine if this said Platonists and not Muslims. That's effectively the same issue, Muhammedism is from Muhammed and to speak of Islam without Muhammed is to speak of Platonists without Plato. It is, in the final analysis, impossible for the Church to speak infallibly of "the Jews" but totally possible for them to say that particular self-described rabbis have made certain correct theological statements or errors. The reason is because Catholics are ontology units, the Mystical Body of Christ, whereas other "religions" are statistical units, bound together by human and demonic things. To say other religions have the elements of salvation is like saying so does Hitler. All people do and other religions are primarily human with God's mercy and wisdom pervading all those who seek it truly.
>>24870098How so? Why was it bad?
>>24876358Catholic Social Doctrine has more authority than you'd expect, e.g. Encyclicals, and we are bound to submit intellect and will. That being said, the Popes have written some long documents that don't define sins so that isn't binding.
>>24879022>I like sinning and haven't seen the consequences yetThe post
>>24867641>What are we thinking of Leo's writings so far?He seems to at least want to bring clarity. Delixe Te and the CDF doc on Marian titles had clear punch-lines and commands.>give alms even though the government does tons more than they used too>don't use these titlesIt was funny to see my fellow Catholics groan over the titles being "lost."
>>24874832Recent Popes of the Holy Catholic Church have abused their teaching office by writing excessively long and unclear documents. I have read probably 10-25 papl encyclicals and they're way too long, have too many single sentences without context that can be intepretated too many ways, and don't have clear action items. The prudence of Popes is not infallible. For example, read Humane VitE >>24874832 and you'll see the beauty of the Holy Office. Define sins and errors or zip it is my view. Syllabus of Errors is bedtime reading of course too.
>>24867641For me, it's the compiled letters of Mr. W.F. Strojie. Paul VI was The Antichrist. He took the Holy Sacrifice away (Daniel 12:11). Also, Paul IV's bull 'Cum ex Apostolatus' invalidated the papal election of a heretic or suspected heretic, which John XXIII was. John XIII was never a true Pope but a usurper. This was the Great Apostasy. The katechon was removed (the Pope), and the man of lawlessness was revealed (Paul VI). Pius XII's encyclical Vacantis Apostolicae Sedis invalidated (a priori), all liturgical and sacramental changes, as well as jurisdictional appointments to follow in the absence of a true Pope (which we haven't had since Pius XII). The number twelve is symbolic of completion throughout the bible. Should it any different in the case of Popes? We have reached the consummatio saeculi (end of the age).Thank you for reading my blog.
>>24872191>I really don't see where all the "JPII beat Communism!" Stuff comes from outside of patriotic poles.I'm a Catholic from another ex-commie Euro country, and I can tell you he never did shit for us. Still a thousand times better than the last two though.
>>24879663I think those documents are more "Francis' documents". You can kind of even see which part of the first one was authored by Francis and which ones by Leo.I think the second one was good in intentions, but bad in execution. It didnt take away titles, it just gave a prudential advice on what to "say in public".I think overall it makes sense. Titles like co-redemptrix and mediatrix can lead to malicious actors to misinterpret it to weaken the Church. They do have a proper usage and I agree they can be misunderstood.But I dunno if THIS is what they should be thinking about now and in the end the document ended up being misunderstood (ironically) and causing scandal.Frankly, the Pope should just replace Fernandez with a better, more concise and clear theologian.The next document will be in defense of monogamy and I'm sure it will be Orthodox but I fear there will be clumsy parts in it.Whenever someone says "the DDF is preparing a new document" the overall mood seems to be "oh, God, no" rather than "ah, this is nice".
>>24877688>MarySee: >>24870859, that's an Orthodox (not Catholic) prayer that is said every night. See also: >>24870875This goes back to the earliest days of the Church. Understanding the role the saints play in death is, IMHO, a huge part of understanding the radical nature of human freedom and the height to which man is raised in theosis (and also the depths to which we have fallen in sin). The Blessed Virgin is in a way the perfection of creation because she, through obedience and love for God, gives birth to God in history. This is exactly the role the Church plays. We, through thought and deed, give birth to Christ in the world (through grace and the action of the Holy Spirit). This isn't something that denigrates the role of grace, rather it shows how incredible grace is.Mary is also considered the height of creation in the East. A common refrain in the Hours and Liturgy is:>It is truly meet to call thee blessed, O Theotokos, the ever-blessed and pure and Mother of Our God. More honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, thee who corruption gavest, the very Theotokos, thee do we magnify.Actually, the Eastern compline also has essentially the Hail Mary as well. We say:>Theotokos and Virgin, rejoice, O Mary full of grace; the Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the Fruit of thy womb; for thou hast borne the Savior of our souls. But you repeat this in a triad and then finish with:>Awed by the beauty of thy virginity and the exceeding radiance of thy purity, Gabriel called out unto thee, O Theotokos: What worthy hymn of praise can I offer unto thee? And what shall I name thee? I am in doubt and stand in awe. Wherefore, as commanded, I cry to thee: Rejoice, O Full of Grace.So too, the churches are covered in icons of saints because the Divine Liturgy takes place with God (the very presence of Christ's flesh and blood) and the saints are, looking in as it were, and participating with us.
>>24880971I sometimes wonder what the Puritans who freaked out about post iconoclasm Protestant churches would think had they ever visited the East.But man is in the image of God, and God took on our flesh. To be honest, the disparagement of not only sacred art, but what is far more consequential, the sacred Mysteries has always seemed to me almost gnostic in a way. Sure, God can act anywhere at any time and is not reliant on the material world, but rather uses to reveal Himself and to empower us. Yet to wholly move beyond the material and discount it seems to deny the goodness of creation. To be sure, the contemplatives like Evagrius and Saint Maximos say we must move beyond images in prayer, but that doesn't mean we aren't involved with creation else wise, and they never included the Mysteries with that.
>>24880813Candidly, I didn't read it. I just opened it and it's 80 paragraphs to say, "Stop saying these two words in public." This is simply too long and admits that us laity needs codling. I think the Church thinks that if the laity is as loathsome, detestable, and hating of all things good beautiful, true, and merciful that I am, we will all respond like we did to Humane Vitae and Humana Persona so they just hide their opinions in thousands of words because we are such disobedient whores of laymen.
>>24881342The response to Humanae Vitae was a disgrace and an eternal shame on the Boomers. I'm very grateful that a lot of Millennial Catholic parents seem to be taking it very seriously. Millennials and Zoomers in general are taking it more seriously and avoiding birth control and condoms as a result.Sometimes I think these gloomy times are part of Ratzinger's prophecy that the Church would shrink to a "faithful remnant." We're so much smaller than we used to be, but the people who stick around, or convert, all seem to really believe.
>>24871006>Many don’t even know you can’t take the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin or truly believe in the presence of Christ’s body and blood within.Dude I'm a Catholic from a formerly 99% White European country and I have no clue what any of that is lmfao.
>>24881549Mortal sin is a sin that severs the link of Grace between you and God. The Church defines certain serious sins as Mortal, usually those specifically enumerated by Jesus or by Paul, like murder, fornication, adultery, that sort of thing.
I’ve never read something more true than this book. Completetly eye opening to the lie of St. Paul and the development of Canaanite Yawheh into the God the Jews needed when civilized.I’ve been a lapsed Catholic for a long time, and between pic related and Fear and Trembling by Kierkegaard idk if I can go back. Faith, true faith, is impossible.Weirdly enough both seem to understand Jesus more than the Catholic Church ever did. The Kingdom of God is within you.Stop tradCath LARPing, you don’t want the heaven the Bible actually teaches.>New Earth>Will subsumed by God so that you won’t care that your family is in hell burning>Eternity of thisIt’s insane
>>24881666You waited to get those trips didn't you
>>24881668No but that’s hysterical
>>24881666I've had too many mystical experiences not to believe in the transcendent. My faith, by the grace of God, is very strong. I fully believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Jesus really did rise from the dead, and that the Catholic Church truly is the Mystical Body of Christ.So I don't know, I kind of feel like I do have faith.
>>24881681That’s fair I don’t want to take anything away from you, I just don’t believe the church as we know it does Jesus justice. I orient my life towards Christ and believe heaven and hell are earthly states not eternal places with gold streets or fire. Also the Adam and Eve stuff is ridiculous in light of evolution so yeah.
>>24881666And I’d appreciate it if we can ignore the fucking post numbers and actually discuss what I said, I get it HAR HAR NERO NUMBERS, let’s not be gay
>>24881684Is it? The world is so much stranger than basic public school history teaches, once you get into the weeds a little.I'm pretty convinced that most of the earthly history of Genesis actually happened. The Nephilim, the Flood, Abraham's exploits, Sodom and Gomorrah. They apparently found Sodom's ruins a few years ago, but they've tried to keep it under wraps.I also believe Exodus really happened. I see no reason not to. And of course the giants were real.
>>24881688Ok I take it back, maybe you’re a schizo
What do we think of our girl Dorothy Day?
>>24881879I dislike her support for the Republicans in Spain. It makes me suspicious of her.
>>24870625>MacIntyreCrypto marxist
>>24881691There are more things in Heaven and on Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
>>24871493>>24871464Which is better between Opus Dei and the SSPX?
>>24882046Opus Dei is a lay society, SSPX is a priestly order. They are not the same genus of things.
>>24867641There's nothing "trad" about Sedevacantism, in the current form espoused by twitter tradlarp converts it's just a modern heresy.
>>24881666>Weirdly enough both seem to understand Jesus more than the Catholic Church ever did. The Kingdom of God is within you.What is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Alex?
>>24882046Neither..? Opus Dei is at least obedient. Obedience can look like error but honestly disobedience can look way sexier and is less sanctifying. I prefer the TLM pretty much totally and avoid it, where women actually dress decently modestly and the Liturgy is actually gorgeous. Why? I offer up my NOVO Masses as a reminder that I don't even deserve that, let alone a single half-reverently said blessing from a priest that long ago stopped caring or believing.
>>24881684>Also the Adam and Eve stuff is ridiculous in light of evolution so yeah.Humani Generis is the Church document on required beliefs regarding evolution if you hold to it. Also, check out Thomistic Evolution 2nd Ed. for an extended discourse on the logical implications of evolution. Evolutionists can't even explain where humans come from because our sophistication is quite excessive for any and all environments nor the exact moment when humans become humans so of course we can't sit evolutionary human creation within the Catholic framework fully because, well, it's half-baked. Does evolution make humanity look less special and the Incarnation like a random blip we're overreacting to? Yes to the former but really the latter is more an expression of God's great patience, unfathomable love, and even, most poignantly, totally humiliating to the status of man. I have a monkey's body and brain and yet the mind of God. It should be noted that original sin is original disaster in the Latin and yes it does make the idea of hereditary sepration from God less pallatable. In my opinion, Adam was given a soul at conception and after he grew up he had sex with a non-souled woman and had a daughter, Eve. He then has sex with Eve, which by the way parent-child incest is nearly unheard of biologically among mammals unless it's insanely desperate times and even then is rare but depraved humans do it all the time. Essentially, we're daddy-daughter rape products and it's a blood curse because Adam thought because of his soul he was master of the world. May God rebuke any error in this post and punish me alone.
>>24871324You're right in your guess. The portion of the population attending church more than twice a week has remained the same throughout our general modern secularization
>>24882032im not sure how you can read what I wrote and come to the conclusion "it's a problem if people are considering the impacts of capital and usury on society and the Church" Anyone trying to ignore how the Church is basically functioning as a part of the financial domination of the world through usury even though it claims to be against it is just trying to manipulate you. Marxists were quite aware of the whole techno-dystopia thing and talk about it quite accurately (they just think it's a good thing because it overcomes nature). Any Catholic curious about why the Church is doing so bad right now would be better off reading Marcuse's one dimensional man than any trad slop about vatican 2 or whatever.This is a good podcast series of two Catholic philosophers working through that book in particularhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqcgYTJlz_4&list=PL6T1Pj98hD6Oupt7Kd3vDn5g8L6KHm_-SIf you want to return to a semi-functional society where the local is prioritized and the Church can be functioning normally again figuring out how to deal with the machine and finding a way out is the like #1 priority. I think the existentialists like heidegger/gabriel marcel/marshall mcluhan are much more helpful than the marxists but the marxists are quite competent at actually identifying some of the key causes.
>>24867641>SedeGo back to your suburban megachurch prot boy. Rightoid converts are not welcome in our culture.
>>24872166>thanks... now i need to play phantom pain again to remember all the stuff with language in that.Just watch the Skull Face jeep speech, it's pretty much the gist of everything and he's 200% right.
>>24882275I never got why evolution was supposed to be such a big deal. It doesn't really cause issues for formal causality of realism, the only people who think this are people who never really bothered actually understanding the former. And it doesn't really cause problems for many Patristic understandings of the Fall either. Or medieval Jewish commentary I am aware of for that matter. No one thought God possessed a body and literally crafted man with his hands and then put his mouth on him to make him come alive. Explicit denials of this abound throughout early commentaries.
>>24874264Christkikes post shit like in complete earnesty this then wonder why their churches are totally deserted jfl
>>24867641I just made this post on /pol/ before coming to /lit/ and seeing this thread. How extremely relevant to what I just posted. I won't rewrite it all, just check the picture but if anyone wants a really literary, modern, catholic power fantasy check out this book by Brendan Connell I should be recommending this more on /lit/ considering how many of you are obsessed with Catholicism and Christianity in general. Also be sure to check out Gianni Vattimo if you're interested in one of the few modern Catholic philosophers in contemporary society. His works are also mentioned in the pic
>>24868550>he DID topple the Soviet Union without firing a shotDelusional
>>24884142The problem is that “the fall” denies what would have been billions of years of evolutionary competition and strife. We’re to believe Adam and Eve were biologically immortal in a perfect world, and death didn’t exist before they did “something” to cause it.In reality there was always death and sickness and natural disasters long before humans, and we would have to believe two random hominids from different parents were born immortal and rational close enough to meet eachother and have sex and it just doesn’t make sense evolutionarily.I’m not saying evolution is perfect but it’s blatantly obvious Adam and Eve weren’t real.
>>24884529
>>24884528The Fall is often read as a fall into materiality, or what we now call materiality. Thus, there is no sound reason why we must read it with the presupposition that:>If the Fall happened it happened in exactly the historical order of this fallen cosmos, with exactly the same laws of physics.Of course the history of this cosmos is filled with strife, we live in the aftermath of the Fall, that's exactly what is suggested. Not only man rebels, but also the archons and principalities over nature, and Satan who is the "prince of this world."But the supposition that "physics is inviolable and self-subsistent and immune to change" is a later post-Reformation heresy and essentially denies that is is "God in whom we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17: 28), and instead substitutes some sort of "pure nature" (natura pura) with God as merely the strongest being sitting outside and beside the world.But there is nothing to ground that assumption for reading Genesis except for sheer modern aesthetic preference that is literally built on heresy.
>>24884528>We’re to believe Adam and Eve were biologically immortal in a perfect world, and death didn’t exist before they did “something” to cause it.The fact that literally the Tree of Life sustains Adam and Eve in the text proves that death was a feature of even the Genesis account, which isn't even interested in imparting scientific factoids to wow the bored and cynical of the 21st century.
>>24884250What is the novel mentioned? The pic is too low res to see unfortunately.I've been looking for good Christian fiction after Laurus and the Saint Outside the Gates (both good but very Eastern). I did find Volker Leppin and Nikos Kazantzakis' fictionalized stories of Saint Francis but that's about it.
>>24884603A lot of fancy words when Paul literally says in Romans “Death entered the world through sin”. Physical death, as in we as humans die, and we didn’t before this inciting event.The Fall implies we fell OUT of perfection, when in reality, even if Adam and Eve were slightly more evolved homo erectus or something, or bodies as they are are animal bodies that were always imperfect. The Fall is more like a CLIMB, out if evolutionary competition. Fancy words can’t negate the science behind it.>>24884645I’m not the one who claimed death entered the world through SIN, Paul was. It’s dogma that they were immortal and all the world lived in harmony. Also the fact that in the account God says to stop them BEFORE they eat of the tree, proves they never ate of the tree of life.The whole thing makes no sense, almost like it was written by sub 50iq sand people
>>24884672>I’m not the one who claimed death entered the world through SIN, Paul was.You seem to think that St. Paul here refers to death as such, but the relevant text only concerns the death of man and any other meaning seems entirely imposed upon it. "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned." (Rom. 5:12)Note that death ever follows sin, as St. Paul soon reminds us, "for the wages of sin is death" (Rom. 6:23). Without the sin of Adam, no man would have to suffer death. >Also the fact that in the account God says to stop them BEFORE they eat of the tree, proves they never ate of the tree of life.Again, that is incorrect. 'The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”' (Gen. 2:15-17)Also, note: we here have evidence of at least one kind of prelapsarian death: plant death, since fruit eaten suffers decomposition. Again, it is a text about God and man, not a cosmology textbook.
>>24884719>Without the sin of Adam, no man would have to suffer death.Yes and this is evolutionarily and biologically ridiculous. We evolved as animals. We still have vestigial animal pieces inside of us. Where was the demarcation between hominids and mankind? Adam and Eve had parents, were they just stupid ape people? Adam and Eves brains would have been 99.99999% similar to their parents, they likely had no language, and were born into the evolutionary struggle of survival. The story also implies they were born relatively close enough to find eachother and mate. It’s retarded.So two random pre society hominids were born to seperate parents, were the only two people alive with souls, and were…immortal, while everyone else wasn’t.This also doesn’t even factor in the polygenism is very likely true, and consciousness was a cascade effect amongst generations. What were these two immortal hominids doing amongst their tribe? Just watching everything suffer and did around them? The Bible was written before we knew Homo Erectus and Neanderthals existed as well, Neanderthals especially being clearly rational, human people.
>>24884603>But the supposition that "physics is inviolable and self-subsistent and immune to change" is a later post-Reformation heresy and essentially denies that is is "God in whom we live and move and have our being" (Acts 17: 28), and instead substitutes some sort of "pure nature" (natura pura) with God as merely the strongest being sitting outside and beside the world.It’s either “God literally created these two humans out of dust and a rib with magice” or “God set up evolution and was not able to interject himself at all in it until chimps stood upright for some reason”.If he didn’t need nature, or was able to simply bypass it, there’d be no evidence for evolution, Adam would have actually been made out of dust
>>24884672>It’s dogma that they were immortal and all the world lived in harmony.Only their souls are dogmatically immortal. I believe how you mean this is incorrect.
>>24884815>What were these two immortal hominids doing amongst their tribe?The only doctrines of the Faith is that Adam was real and he caused original sin and we're all descended from him. Eve can be read symbolically technically. Again, we don't ever know the origin point nor their dynamics beyond genetic statistics
>>24884815>Where was the demarcation between hominids and mankind?The soul. When was the first blue jay a blue jay? Evolution, candidly, doesn't explain speciation properly nor the creation of insects versus plants.>Adam and Eve had parents, were they just stupid ape people?Only Adam needs to be real as an individual for the theology and Eve could be symbolic. After the fall, it is stated that Cain runs away with other groups of people. A priest once joked that we might actually find it harder to detect if someone has a soul than you'd think. However, point being, there was a first man and we can all interbreed with one another. There was a first blue jay and they cannot interbreed with cardinals. How? You need a first female and male blue jay, right? When were they? IMVHO evolution doesn't even have half an idea where species come from.
>>24884650Oh sorry it's "The Translation of Father Torturo" by Brendan Connell.
>>24884672You're just repeating the same metaphysical assumption dogmatically re the Fall though.
>>24884851Humani Generis states Adam and Eve were real people, the only true human couple, from which we all descend. If only Adam existed that means polygenism exists theologically and there are people descended from a sinless Adam with sinless women before he sinned.>>24884858There was no first blue jay, the genetic variation of a blue jay was generationally evolved over time as bird species branched out. This is evolution 101. Homo Erectus didn’t just magically give birth to the first homo sapien, there was no first homo sapien, there were slow cascades of genetic mutations that culminated in the label homo sapien when enough of the mutations became common.Blue Jays can’t breed with cardinals for the same reason I can’t get a chimpanzee pregnant, becuase despite having common ancestors and similar structures the branching out of our dna over time gave way to differences that make breeding incompatible, this is like basic biology man, you sound retarded.
>>24884878The implication of the Bible is that sin begot physical death for humans.Which means that, if you want to stretch the definition of creation, God alowed evolution to happen for billions of years just to get to the point where chimps stood up and he breathed a soul into two of them.Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? Why would he need evolution, he’s God.
>>24884882>>24884884>There was no first blue jay, the genetic variation of a blue jay was generationally evolved over time as bird species branched out. Yet there was a first man, since what distinguishes him from any beast is a rational soul, composed of intellect and will, which are immaterial powers not subject to a purely naturalistic process such as evolution. >God alowed evolution to happen for billions of years just to get to the point where chimps stood up and he breathed a soul into two of them...Do you not see how ridiculous that sounds? Why would he need evolution, he’s God.You do know that God literally transcends time and space? This is strictly a you problem.
Cardinal Sarah should have been Pope.
>>24884861This sounds cool
>>24884959Ideally, yeah. But the Modernists would vote block for anyone competing with him.
>Why doesn't the pope validate my hecking epic tradpilled based schizo online zoomer catholicism>Yes I'm a 500lb screendamaged retard who joined a pakistani tradcath discord rp server out of shame from fapping to BBC scat threads on /gif/ for the 50000th time, why does that matter, bigot? My faith is hecking VALID!
>You all need the Puritan boardThe Puritan Board provides Christian discussion in a Confessionally Reformed Evangelical context. We are Evangelical because we protest the authority, truth claims and idolatry of the Roman Catholic Church. We are Reformed because we believe that men and women are dead in trespasses and it requires the power of God in salvation through Christ. Christ has broken the power of sin to enslave us and has purchased our faith so that, in Him, we rise to newness of life. We are Confessional because we believe that the Scriptures are clear regarding matters of life and salvation. Confessions are not the Scriptures, but they faithfully represent the core truths of the Scriptures and provide a unifying body of teaching that has stood the test of centuries.https://puritanboard.com/
>>24884963It's quite cool. As I said in the picture/post I feel like there's a good chance I could find relevant threads to post the book in on Pol or Lit fairly frequently because of just how many people on 4chan are looking for a sort of "Neo-Christian" mindset. Brendan Connell is a fairly old author though and this book is from 2005 so you know it's not corrupted. Everything changed when social media attacked of course so almost nothing past ~2012 is decent. But yeah, The Translation of Father Torturo is basically a Christian/Catholic power fantasy. Written with an extremely erudite tone though. Most people, even the average lifelong boomer reader would drop it in 5 pages (trust me, I've literally tried)But if you're capable of enjoying something about a guy doing miracles in the modern age until he becomes a pope and then a saint...with some of the most erudite prose you can find in the modern age, then this is the book for you. Enjoy! And I'm sure I'll be called a shill for this random 2005 book but I swear I just remembered it recently and realized how relevant it is to all the Christians on here. They're rabid for decent christian fiction and this one is badass.
>>24877632>John Paul II allowed Buddha idols in the Vatican, urged for praying with heathens in Redemptor HominisBased
This seems like a good place to talk about this, so here goes nothing >Been an atheist since my mother died when I was 10>Recently started calling myself a non-believer to distance myself from cringy reddit atheist >Also became more open to the stories of Christianity as morality tales and such>Been struggling with my purpose in life, want to be a role model/success for my wife and two sons, want to leave a legacy for them>Been trying to write for nearly 15 years with only a slight bit of success (8 or so published short stories, only 3 were for pay)>Slight mental breakdown after questioning my purpose >Come to the conclusion that, if God has a plan for us all, His plan for me is to be a failure and a bad example for others >Start going back to church to try and find some sort of guidance or meaning >Only been two weeks of church, but have been talking to God again for a few months>Starting to feel even worse, like even being a failure is too lofty of a goal for meI still plan on going to church, at least for a while, but I'm really not understanding what to do? All I want to a hint as to how to proceed. I don't need a big flashing neon sign telling me what to do next, but a hint would be nice. I just feel like God wants me to do nothing but play videogames and be an utter failure. I just don't know what I'm supposed to do. Sorry for bothering you guys with my idiocy. Not even sure why I'm here asking.
>>24885284And where does your money come from? What inheritance did you get? Where do you live? Who's financing you?
>>24885288My wife is the breadwinner and we live in a very rural community in a very rural state so the cost of living is low enough to accommodate certain single income household. I don't have a skill set or degree that allows for me to provide for my family.
>>24885284One thing I have learned over the years in my relationship with God is that He often answers, or doesn't answer, our prayers to get us to ask the right questions. To understand the right things. The relationship with God takes the form of a dialectic, basically, with us praying to God and God acting in our lives accordingly, one way or another.What questions have you been asking of God? Maybe you've been asking the wrong questions. Maybe He's trying to teach you to ask the right ones.
>>24881688>I'm pretty convinced that most of the earthly history of Genesis actually happened.It did. Just not in the way the bible lays it out.>Sargon of Akkad>world's first emperor>conceived by a "humble" mother>birthed in secret>placed in a basket>rescued by a gardener>blessed by Ishtar, virgin goddess>became cup-bearer to the king>grew in favor and influence>rebelled>displaced the king>called himself the "King of Universal Dominion">the semites of Akkad built myths around him>chosen by the god Enlil>a frequent sacrifice on their altars was the lamb>"The lamb is the substitute for humanity; he hath given up a lamb for his life."
>>24885296Not a Catholic, but man, you need to figure out how to bring in some income. That's probably the main source of your depression and low self-esteem. Keep seeking Christ and figuring out ways to let you stand on your own two feet. Praying for you.Also, you don't know God's plan for you or anything else. Don't ever allow yourself to believe you're fated to anything in this world except eventual judgement before Him. Get after it, son. Stop calling yourself a loser and failure. Cultivate a mindset that is more conducive to success than failure. Earning enough to afford an apartment and food is a good starting goal. That's self-sufficiency. Imagine what that income would do for you and your wife when you're already surviving on one income, imagine what it would do for your self-esteem.
>>24885777Right, if there's one thing the Bible really hammers home it's that if you ask nicely God will make you wealthy.
>>24885782How on earth did you extrapolate that from what I said?
>>24885855I was giving the guy some worldly advice, not promoting some ridiculous prosperity gospel nonsense. He said he felt as if it were God's plan for him to be a loser, and it's obvious he's depressed. My advice was to get a job and learn to provide, so he'd feel better, and to keep seeking Christ. Nowhere did I imply he should pray for wealth.
>>24885777You know what's actually crazy? No one expected women to work, they cooked and cleaned and that was it, while men paid for everything. Now that women are the majority in college, majority of new hires, majority new income gained (all because of bias towards women on two fronts - simps and other women).Now that men are hired less than 50% of the time as women (and that number has nothing but increase exponentially). After all this, we still have people acting like the average man can find work. Unless it's fucking construction which is not possible for a lot of people because we're all chronically ill there is virtually no work and the work there is chooses women basically 3 out of every 4 hires. Yes men should work and have a purpose. But that's not possible in America. It's already impossible and it's somehow only going to get worse. The statistics are incredibly clear by now but people STILL act like you can find work. Like wtf. 60% or recent college grads can't find ANY work compared to 25% just a decade ago. And that number is also expected to continue to increase at a near exponential rate. I've predicted the next 5 years of America near perfectly since 2015 and now I'm predicting we will be in a severe civil conflict for resources like food by 2030. Its clear as day.
>>24885296How the fuck did you not only get a wife for free, but also get her to provide you with an entire life for free too?
>>24885912It's crazy how much this actually happens. I knew a scrawny white kid heroin addict who was not very cute and he kept getting nice 6 or 7/10 women to date him because they wanted to "fix him" (they didn't know he was an H addict of course). His last girlfriend gave him $150 every week for "bills" while he never worked or did anything but struggle with addiction/withdrawal and she did this for like 6 months before he finally got kicked out of her apartment. And that was like the third girl he had doing this for him. Its insane. Like wtf! I'm almost 100% certain it's because women in the modern age only like dating men they believe they're smarter than, and to be fair they were smarter than this fuck but he was just a good liar. They think men smarter than them are all rapists because of Law and Order SVU.I just saw this new netflix show, idk the name it just came out. It's about this journalist white woman writing a book about a smart rich tech bro CEO who is rumored to have killed his wife and the entire show is just him standing and looking and talking MENACINGLY to this journalist. Like he's about to rape and murder her. It's like 50% of every episode. This is also why Trad women exist because the few women who aren't afraid of men who make more money than them want to make it obvious they're not crazy like other bitches. Thank you for reading my Ted Talk
>>24885909Are you the anon with the wife who's the breadwinner?
>>24885930>>24885909meds NOW.
>>24885950Nope I'm this guy >>24885930Not the anon I replied to. I just think it's crazy that women only hire themselves to the point where men can barely find any work outside of back breaking labor and people still say it's a mans job to provide. In America, statistically it is absolutely not a man's job to provide. It's a woman's because they make more money and find much better paying and cushier jobs then men ever could now.
>>24885960that much was clear. get some help, you're allowing the state of the country to derange your mind.
>>24885733>What questions have you been asking of God?Basically been asking about my place in the world, how to provide for my family in a way I can actually do well, what my purpose is. I don't really know what else I should be asking at 40 years old.
>>24885968Nope, just aware of the basic trends because I work 9 - 5 in retail. Not hard to see if you're actually active in a corporate environment.
>>24885974that's not really the sort of thing you can ask of God and expect to receive an answer to. God gave us a framework from within which we operate. It's your job to figure out the rest. Continue to pray for guidance and understanding, but maybe pick up a classifieds ad in the meantime, you know? don't expect an employer to burst in your door and hand deliver a job application because you prayed on it. we're here to glorify God. sitting in your home and feeling doomed to failure doesn't bring him any glory. be a little more proactive. refer to the parable of the talents in Matthew 25:14
>>24885930Ok so can you find me one please, thanks. I don't want to be homeless. I don't have a drug addiction or anything like that though.
>>24885979In my experience it's quite rare to see people on 4chan, outside of /pol/, who actually work in public facing retail positions that show them the reality of the everyday public and "coworkers" and "Corporate". These boards are very nerdy hobbies, most nerds are fairly smart and don't end up working in shit retail jobs dealing with retards so they have a skewed image of just how bad the general public actually is. It's not the same if you work at say, an engineering firm or something like that despite the fact they're technically corporations. They're getting bad too of course but it's nothing like the average service jobs/corporations that the majority of low-income people are employed by. And those low-income people almost never end up on 4chan, hell they don't even get on Reddit and they virtually never leave comments online so Internet forums give a very skewed image of the world.
>>24885988That's the thing...all I've ever remotely been good at is writing. Everything else, creative or more labor based, has ended in utter failure. At least with writing there's been a slight modicum of success. You'd think that would be a call of some sort, but the second I start trying to include Christian values and/or themes in my stuff, I get a wave of rejections and obstacles.
>>24886020Christians want cool Christian stories, even if publishers don't. Publishers are staffed by 80% white women according to one study btw. The New Yorker hasn't published a story by a white male in something crazy like over a decade. But Christians of all people are willing to read a book, or at least try. Any religion with a book of teachings gives adherents an innate draw toward reading.
>>24886018How exactly do you get a "smart" job without being from a rich family already?
>>24886028Which is why I started submitting stuff to right wing and/or Christian publications. I assumed they'd be my best bet, but I honestly had more luck writing secular coded fiction. I haven't written anything since about April, and I feel bad about almost everyday, but I'm not sure if I should even try. I mean, if God wanted me to succeed, wouldn't I already have succeeded?
>>24886039Everyone I know from my highschool friend group with a good job and career had it handed to them in some way. One had his college paid for and got an internship in highschool at an amazing tech firm through a random lottery at our school. One had a dad who was literally a head-hunter for fortune 500 corps so he just got him a job with an acquaintance. My other friends who didn't get lucky are struggling. One has a PhD in chemistry and makes like $20/hr doing chemistry work. I work at a gas station making $18/hr. But I am very lucky for that. This job market is absolutely insane.
>>24886042No? No that's not how that works. Idk how it works, but it ain't that
>>24886039Just go to your local church and ask for a job, God will provide.LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
>>24886028>Christians want cool Christian stories, even if publishers don't. I wonder how this can be fixed. This is an underserved marketIn my country, old Christian books sell well.
Thread is now a mentally ill unemployed and demoralized man samefagging with himself about the hopelessess of American culture and politics lol.
