books for someone interested in the history and philosophy of protestantism?ideally addressed to people coming from an exclusively catholic environmentbtw didnt we have a non-ficiotn general to post these kind of requests on?
Paradise Lost
>>25079274The BibleThe Reformation by MacCulloch (his biography of Cranmer is apparently also good)On the Freedom of a ChristianConfessional documents (39 articles, Book of Concord, Westminster Catechism, Three forms of Unity, etc)Consider dipping into a systematic theology like Calvin's or Barth's (though there are many) and checking out whatever topic you might be interested in.The Book of Common Prayer (1666). Make sure to pray the offices every day anon!The Pilgrim's ProgressTaylor's Holy Living and Holy DyingBonhoeffer's prison lettersRutledge's The CrucifixionMoltmann's The Crucified GodI've heard good things about Sproul, though I have not read him myself.>>25079292Paradife Loft expresses a heretical understanding of the Holy Trinity and its theodicy is (in my opinion) unconvincing.
>>25079444>Paradife Loft expresses a heretical understanding of the Holy Trinity and its theodicy is (in my opinion) unconvincing.Woosh
>>25079292ok but who won?
>>25079549>Protestent>winningYou did, bud. You did.
>>25079274* apology of socrates by plato. pay attention to where socrates prefigures [Acts 5:29]* the Bible, read the kjv because by Providence its the default and has the right provenance* justin martyr, first apology, trypho* eusebius history of the church* aquinas summa theologica* luther isnt interesting for what he wrote, hes interesting for what he did, which was actually done by fredrick iii hohenzollern elector of brandenburg* calvinism is obnoxiously heretical* read the theological works of euler and boyle to find out about the freethinkers and cartesians who teamed up to overthrow the university* foxes book of martyrs is essential history. moreover, my favorite saint is elizabeth young, described therein is how she repeated the heresies of the papist bigot back to him in the terms that the papist thinks license them so the papist would have to concede that he exceeds his claimed authority in order to condemn her * pastor steven anderson is mostly non feminist and has excellent commentaries on whats going on today as well as some very insightful comments on Bible books, his podcast is nominally https://www.faithfulwordbaptist.org/page5.html but his rss is broken so his content is on allthepreaching.com and theres rss at nifbpodcasts.com
Reformation Thought and Christianity's Dangerous Idea by Alister McGrathProtestants by Alec Ryrie
>>25079864>* luther isnt interesting for what he wroteThat's a ridiculous statement, although perhaps understandable if you don't speak German.
>>25080039luthers testament wasnt in german, it was in God's language of civilizational action. like a holy ghost, luther isnt even quoted directly, but calls to mind what was written in the Scriptures
>>25079274Roland BaintonJusto GonzalezNicholas NeedhamPick out the volumes covering thr Reformation
>>25080103The Lutherbibel and hymns are core works of German literature and his writings, well known for their eloquence and originality, have had a continual influence on German thought.
>>25080025Ryrie sounds familiar, I think he's been suggested to me before
>>25079274HERE I STAND: A Life of Martin Luther
>>25079274>philosophy of protestantismthis is an oxymoron.
>>25079864>>25080139Catholics have never recovered from getting BTFO by a German autist. You love to see it.
>>25079274Anything by Kierkegaard.>I have wanted to prevent people in Christendom from existentially taking in vain Luther and the significance of Luther’s life.
>>25080156Quoted the Anderson cuck on accident
>>25080039Lutheran here.I second this. He is a shitty writer and his ideas/reasoning are not at all respectable beyond the rather obvious insight that maybe organizing the entire society around/subverting the Bible toward running thousands of daycare centers for adult intellectuals and using the remainder as agnostic bureaucrats for the administration of the HRE on behalf of an importer who didn’t want that land passing into the hands of a hereditary nobility- was perhaps a bad idea.It’s cattycuck behavior to glaze up mortal men because religious tradition says so. Luther was a bad writer, that’s just a fact. He doesn’t remotely compare to an Augustine or really any of the church fathers. He was probably a very good speaker thoughever and a decent politician, and he did good work for the right team (gods team).
>>25080171emporer*
>>25080171Typical Lutheran behavior. They love spitting on tradition, and organizing immigration support efforts with their female and transexual church leaders.
>>25080177Emperor* I hate phone posting
>>25080178Sure whatever big fella. There’s not really any point arguing with a catty, they’ll just legalese their way out of having to respond to any point.(Which is ironic since the main theme of the gospel is Jesus going around to various locations and pointing out to various people all the retarded contradictory conclusions legalistic bs had brought men to and why that sort of nonsense has god very very upset…)But anyway, seeya.
>>25080187Being accused of being Catholic by the most Catholic denomination in all of Protestantism, rich
>>25080025>Christianity's Dangerous Ideathanks for reminding me I have a copy of this on my e-reader.
>>25080171This is a schizophrenic post. I disagreed with someone that said Luther was a bad writer so now you're accusing me of acting like a Catholic. There seems to be a strong element of resentment in your post. On the one hand you gleefully use religion as a means of downplaying the achievements of great men, and on the other hand you seem to think religion is a useful means of excusing yourself from ever having to acknowledge and thus deal with the opinions of people who are perhaps more intelligent than yourself. Instead of acknowledging, for example, that both Hegel and Kierkegaard have regarded Luther as an eloquent writer and important thinker, and that therefore there is some weight to the claim, you insist on your own subjective observation that Luther was a bad writer and thinker and anyone disagreeing with you must be a slave to tradition and a pseudo-Catholic. It is utterly insane and a very sad perversion of religious reasoning. As a Lutheran you should know the difference between an arbitrary tradition and a genuine tradition. There is nothing wrong with collecting the thoughts of the worthiest minds and having respect for them, as well as testing them against your own observations.
>>25080171>It’s cattycuck behavior to glaze up mortal men because religious tradition says sofor example thats why lutherans still do their compromise on transubstantiation, luther was right not to argue and if wycliffe had been less argumentative he could have prevented his death or the death of tyndale. elizabeth young, Christ, and luther on transubstantiation, are the examples of not arguing with the government
>>25080838Wasn't Luther was a true believer in transubstantiation. Before and after his awakening? There's that famous account of him at his first mass, where he chokes when he realizes the gravity of being in the literal presence of the blood of Christ, and his father is all like "bro, you quit being a gifted lawyer to be an inept churchman??"
>>25079568>>25079549Secularism, liberalism, and materialist athiesm are basically evolutions of Protestantism, so they did sort of win.They don't call it the "Protestant to athiest pipeline" for nothing.
>>25080843No, he believed the bread and wine continued to exist in substance, rather than appearance, along with the body and blood of Christ. It’s a subtle heresy.
>>25080869There objectively more ex-Catholic atheists than ex-Protestant atheists
>>25080843what luther said to zwingli was "hoc est poc est" from like the Bible to demonstrate his indifference to the question. im not interested in debating luthers position because luther wasnt. he did the Lord's supper ritual as commanded by the Lord.logically, communion and baptism are not necessary, sola fide. eating the flesh of the Lord is a metaphor for recognizing that youre not a passive observer of sin who would have stopped the Crucifixion if youd been there and basically the evil kikes did it and theyre the only ones who need to be forgiven. the metaphor requires that the system of sacrifices and eating sacrifices be explained to the bored cradle Christian and when that cradle Christian is an adult he tells his kid, be respectful at communion thats the body of Christ and for God's sake dont come to communion on a guilty conscience, and then his kid explains that the substance of the bread becomes Divine and this is a mystery of faith like the unknowable nature of God
>>25081030What's up with this board and Calvinists coming out of the woodwork lately
>>25081040i havent seen a calvinist in over a decade since they were rebuked by yarvin
>>25080869i'm currently reading a book by a catholic philosopher and he claims that protestantism dooms christianity with the claim that salvation comes from faith alone; while catholicism had found a way to integrate faith with reason (reaason as in the logic of greek philosophers), by preaching sola fide protestants take a step back basically de-legitimizing christianity to an act of fideism, which excludes it from being an essential components of social life and government.is this what>They don't call it the "Protestant to athiest pipeline" for nothing.means?
>>25081263>catholic philosopheris faggot for>tendentious wordcel
>>25081263Yes, you get the gist of it. Reason decoupled from faith becomes its own self-serving master. Every error imaginable will follow.
>>25081384ok but then catholicism affirms itself as the cult of the church and not the cult of the bible.claiming the infallibility of the church when we all now that it's not
>>25081455The Church is infallible in teaching faith and morals (dogma), not infallible in practice. Don't conflate the two. Infallibility is essential for authoritatively interpreting scripture. Scripture alone is quite mysterious, and liable to be misinterpreted.
>>25081511>The Church is infallible in teaching faith and morals
>>25081538>”Certainly God is great and almighty, good and merciful and all that one can imagine in this sense, but He is stupid.” Martin LutherHe knew better that to trust in God’s Church, hence the sly smile.
>>25081384shut the hell up and go back to raping choir boys faggot. serious men who follow arguments instead of spouting vague "meta" bullshit are talking
>>25081511>Church is infallible in teaching faith and moralskill yourself tendentious wordcel
>>25081840You rape strawmen.
>>25081842But enough about the Novus Ordo…
>>25081843think with your heart its the only organ for salvationthink with your heart dont deduce yourself to eternal damnationwhose ever heard of the bleeding brain of Jesus
>>25081849Heart and mind. Faith and reason. We need to use both.
>>25081846thats the Magesterium of the Holy Father teaching you about faith and morals that you should log off and practice the gift of love with choir boys
>>25081855No it’s not. That is the Novus Ordo church. It’s is a different religion run by masons and kikes since ‘58.
>>25081854exmotions are new age freudian pseudoscience supplanting the passions that the Holy Father Leo XIII Commanded you to recognize in His Scripture Aeteri Patris which you should find in your Bible because its infalliable
>>25081860thats the ex opere operato Holy Father and you will conform to His teachings
>>25081864A lot of Prots are cool, but people like you are just judiazers or outright kikes.
>>25081867Alright, I’m convinced you’re a kike. You won’t address Jews co-opting the Church with the Novus Ordo, false Popes, and V2 documents like nostra aetate. Everything the Catholic Faith has taught for 2,000 years remains intact, even if the Church herself is nailed to the Cross. This is your last (you).
>>25081881>Jews co-opting the Churchsquid ink. the Holy Father is the Holy Father ex opere operato, not contingent on Him agreeing with you. youre not a Francisist or a thomist so youre not a papist
>>25081887Cum ex apostolatus officio. A heretic can not be Pope. Your argument is fraudulent.
>>25081893so basically, the Magesterium can make mistakes. welcome aboard fellow protestant
>>25081904You Jews take over legitimate institutions, like the Holy Catholic Church, and turn them into a farce, so you can strawman your own creation. You thrive off gaslighting, but the truth doesn’t bend or break. Nice try, kike. But you don’t fool me.
>>25081912youre the God forsaken reprobate pedo rape pimp tendentious wordcel kike faggot, try posting a damned argument instead of pretended credentialist browbeating and pretended spiritual mysticism, you cant because you havent even read summa theologica let alone the Bible plus the papist apocrypha and the other infalliable documents that as infalliable are equal to the Bible especially when they all contradict each other
>>25081920Rich.
>>25081922its ridiculous that we finally have a place to be free to say true things and the pride parade comes through demanding equal respect for their ignorance superstition and bigotry, the dirty little secret of the 20th century is that those jew kikes banned Christianity from public schools with the assistance of the papists, that was in the 50's and 60's and its why the boomers were so un-Christian
>>25082048>those jew kikes banned Christianity from public schoolsOk>with the assistance of the papistsYou lost me
>>25080446Nigga I ain’t reading all that shit by you, have some economy in your spergouts
GR
>>25082066the first campaign of lawfare against the Bible in school was prosecuted by papists. they couldnt just go to catholic school, they had to remove the Bible from normal people school
Against Heresies Irenaeus>is nothing original?never has been
>Luther’s Influence on Philosophyhttps://plato.stanford.edu/entries/luther-influence
>>25082129Vague.
>>25082176>For contrary to common newspaper usage, I am not the Catholic candidate for president. I am the Democratic Party's candidate for president, who happens also to be a Catholic.jfk pretends that theres a conflict between being a papist and a communist> I do not speak for my church on public matters, and the church does not speak for me.jfk pretends that theres a conflict between being a papist and a communist>Whatever issue may come before me as president — on birth control, divorce, censorship, gambling or any other subject — I will make my decision in accordance with these viewsjfk pretends that theres a conflict between being a papist and a communist
>>25082334You’re uniquely retarded.
>>25082348father coughlin and fulton sheen are interesting for the same reason as nicholas j fuentes, heres a papist whos willing to criticize communism a little. look at any history of how communism was resisted in america in the 20th century and find those two papists glazed as the right wing desperately seeks papist approval. the only church groups communists fear are church groups led by pastors who arent from universities and dont have a denomination to demand communism of them
>>25082402>Fuentes Probably a fed and gay>sheenAlright but an ecumenist>father coughlinGood>19th century jargonNigger
>>25082408so lets do a deep dive on this. at the end of the 19th century the popes were condemning communism because they were feeling threatened, so leo xiii tried to require thomism and also lay out an alternative to communism in rerum novarum, the pope before him pius xi who was the first infalliable pope published the syllabus of errors, which was considered by john henry newman to have no doctrinal force, similarly to how the blogger father zuhlsdorf considers vatican ii to have no doctrinal force. newman is the namesake of the newman center on your local college campus
>>25082458The Syllabus of Errors was published before the close of the First Vatican Council at which the dogma of Papal Infallibility was promulgated, which retroactively makes the Syllabus infallible church doctrine. As for what Newman said, and when he said it, I don’t care, it makes no difference. The Second Vatican Council (V2) produced documents containing heresy. Those heretical documents notably include: Unitatis Reintegratio, Orientalium ecclesiarum, Lumen Gentium, Dignitatis Humanae, Ad Gentes, Nostra Aetate, Sacrosanctum Concilum, and Gaudium et Spes. Giuseppe Roncalli and Giovanni Montini, the two men that presided over V2, were both suspected heretics prior to their elections (usurpations). As heretics, they were not Catholics, and therefore, not viable candidates for office (see Paul IV’s Papal Bull Cum ex apostolatus officio). Their tenures were both illegitimate and any changes enacted for that period (and ever since) are null and void by the dictates of Pius XII’s encyclical Vacantis Apostolica Sedis. For reason of their falsity as Popes, and the heresy promulgated in the Second Vatican Council, V2 has no doctrinal force. On that I agree with Father Z, even if I couldn’t care less what he thinks.
>>25082482right, you believe that the corruption was at v2 and want to rollback to v1. i would prefer to rollback v1 also because infalliability is silly and the immaculate conception is not thomist. the newman center movement began just before the 20th century and would have been a vector for the corruption you identify at v2
>>25082521I agree to disagree there. Infallibility has been the only thing that’s protected the integrity of the papacy, as it is the doctrine of previous popes that is necessary for denouncing their recent usurpers. The clowns parading around as pope since ‘58 can never undo the words of previous true popes, which accuse them as imposters, because their doctrines were made dogmatically infallible at V1.
>>25082911aquinas wrote down a geistesgeschichte as the first wikipedian. the spirit of thomism is the spirit of scholarship and long before boyle, so the summa can either be built on or mocked and ignored. like wikipedia, the summa has pages of politically required bullshit that thomas passively accepts. original sin and infant baptism are contrary to the meaning of sin, as ezekiel says, the soul that sinneth, it shall die, but no man shall be held responsible for the sin of his father. infalliability is an outrage against the jealous God as it is His unique attribute and the proof of the Divinity of Christ, moreover, Christ uses the question, are you infalliable, to ask the pharisees if they were God when they wanted to lynch the adulteress. thomas accepts what is politically necessary in the spirit of elizabeth young and Christ who refused to argure with ananias and herod
>>25082957The Pope (true and legitimate) is the Vicar of Christ. Infallibility is a privilege of his given by God. The Church only defines what was already present by the dogmatic declaration of his infallibility when teaching ex cathedra. You disagree. Fine.
>>25083003>Vicar of Christ. Infallibility is a privilege of his given by Godright. you were supposed to have said, and now say, that it was always part of the deposit of faith at pentecost, then as vague as the New Testament text, now pronounced in the 19th century.in the summa, thomas claims the pope has the right to revise the nicene creed, or, to publish the syllabus of errors (ii-ii q1a10). thomas claims this based on the right of the pope to convene a council, which would then have the right of governmental force over the church.thomas knew that he was not God and the summa was not Scripture, nevertheless, the summa describes what was believed several centuries ago. if papal infalliability had always been part of the deposit of faith at pentecost, that was unknown to aquinas, who merely claimed the pope had the authority of governance that his subjects must treat his legitimate pronouncements as if they were infalliable
>>25083844Aquinas is not the Church, and he was never Pope. Anything the church pronounced through her councils, papal bulls, and encyclicals which overlap with Aquinas' thought are infallible. Anything else he wrote is not, but surely worth considering, as he is the greatest doctor of the Church. You're really hung up on this infallibility thing, and we've pretty much discussed it to its limit. No more yous for (you). Have a nice day.
>>25084006infalliability is exclusive to God and Scripture. the claimed infalliability of the pope is derived from the Scriptural infalliability of the ecclesia that is then claimed to be this institution here, its core magesterium, and finally its leader. it is no longer possible to claim infalliability of the magesterium and the leaders infalliabiity rests on the claim that popes you dont like arent popes. the ecclesia in Scripture doesnt clearly mean this institution, it is more likely that it means all believers
>popes you dont like arent popesStrawman. See >>25082482
>>25084220cf> The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. [1 Pe 5]
>>25081117Post the actual verses mentioning the Elect.
>>25084006pilates question is what is truth, demonstrates here is the communist believes that the institution is God, thus communism produces compelled over the shoulder looking communists instead of free towards heaven looking Christians
>>25079274>Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldviewhttps://www.bookfinder.com/isbn/9780830851874>A History of Western Philosophy and Theologyhttps://www.bookfinder.com/isbn/9781629950846
>>25079274Luther's Shorter Catechism would be a good start.The Heidelberg Catechism, the Belgic Confession, and the Canons of Dort, the Westminster Catechism and the 1689 London Baptist Confession as well. All are essentially mini systematic theologies.The Great Awakenings and the Restoration movement for perspective on modern evangelism and the fairly wide range of views.
>>25079274The Westminster Standards
>>25079274Luther himself advocated the Bible (apocrypha optional), Augustine and Theologia Germanica. Meister Eckhart, while Catholic, was pre-Reformation and shunned by the Catholic Church, and likely influenced Luther, and worth reading. For ancient philosophy, Platonism is useful for concretely understanding what is meant by "soul" as every time the term is referenced in the NT, the speakers are almost always influenced by Platonism and the Hellenization of Judaism that was prevalent in the times of the NT. Augustine himself was also influenced by the later Neoplatonist movement. Still, Neoplatonism took the ball and ran with it to some degree, so studying basic Platonism and Augustine should be enough. Almost all of post-Reformation Christian philosophy is due to Lutherans. Liebniz' views on God is worth reading. Kierkegaard is great for an existentialist, faith-based view of Christianity akin to the Teacher of Ecclesiastes. Kantianism and Hegelianism are both technically Lutheran philosophies as Lutherans created them. Kantianism gives a strong foundation to ethics and epistemology that is extremely relevant to modern ethics and science. Hegelianism can be used to view history, whether the OT, human history or natural history. Insofar as these philosophies as well as other writers of German Idealism can be interpreted and seen in light of Scripture instead of naturalism as secular philosophy attempts, they are worth reading.
>>25088198>Eckhart influenced LutherAbsurd.
>>25088198>>25088210I read further. You may actually be retarded.
>>25088210>>25088214>samefaggingcalling someone retarded while spamming replies faster than Starbucks Stacy without reading the entire thing, on the fucking /lit/ board of all places...
>>25088295I quoted myself and said I read further, you 80IQ materialist cretin.
>>25088320>kant, hegel, kierkegaard were materialistBehold, the absolute state of /lit/
>>25088885You are an idiot. Stop posting.
>>25088198>Platonism is useful for concretely understanding what is meant by "soul" as every time the term is referenced in the NT, the speakers are almost always influenced by Platonism and the Hellenization of Judaism that was prevalent in the times of the NTor maybe after Malachi 4 God sent socrates plato aristotle to prepare the way for His elijah that He sent to prepare the way for the Lord, and the philosophical Logos was the closest to Christology that could be reasoned instead of revealed
>>25088961Maybe. One must also keep in mind that in the Bible, Jesus does not reject the ideas of soul, God and other parts of Jewish theology that were undoubtedly Hellenized at that point, but instead uses them. There is no explicit rejection or revision of these ultimately Greek philosophical concepts in His words, for He found them appropriate and useful for describing and teaching Christianity.
>>25081455>the Catholic Church, through guidance by the Holy Ghost, INFALLIBLY compiled the Canon of Sacred Scripture, INFALLIBLY excluded countless texts and gospels which were, by the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church, INFALLIBLY discerned and INFALLIBLY proclaimed to be heretical or uninspired>Protestants reject the INFALLIBLY of the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church>Protestants proclaim Sola Scriptura (Scripture Alone), using the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church's INFALLIBLE Canon which was INFALLIBLY compiled by the INFALLIBLE Catholic Church, of which the INFALLIBILITY they rejectmake it make sense
>>25089348i'm pretty sure Luther had nothing against the Church Fathers who selected the canon.The stuff he condemned came up centuries after that.also protestant bibles dont include deuterocanonical books so technically they reject part of the catholic canon
>>25079274Read the Bible and become a traditional Roman Catholic:"For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you." (1 Corinthians 11:19)
>>25089348This is where you jump the gun on things. Lutherans do not deny the importance of the Church Fathers and the early church in compiling scripture. They also admit that the Catholic Church was right about many things for which it had a clear scriptural basis. However, from the high medieval period onwards the Catholics had started emphasizing extra-biblical theology (think Aquinas and other scholastics), and had started making additions to sacraments otherwise prescribed in scripture, that were entirely due to these new developments in theology. This resulted in a movement back towards scripture within the Catholic Church, initiated by Luther, and the Reformation came to be.You may say that the Catholic Church, especially post V2, is now largely based on scripture instead of tradition. But it was not so back in the 16th century or the high middle ages.
>>25089928You place too much authority on the Bible, and don’t understand that tradition on its own has merit. Fr. Josiah Trenham of Eastern Orthodox makes the point that when Paul taught the church at Thessaloniki, he could have taught them practices that were not mentioned in his letters to them. Such practices would’ve not been mentioned in writing if he considered the church to already have learned them and not need more guidance and counsel in his written words. The same could be said for the other epistles to the churches of Rome, of Greece, of Asia Minor and elsewhere. It is incredibly probable that he taught them all practices and guidelines that he did not commit to writing down himself so as to not repeat things they already knew. Then these practices, not found in the Bible, would be passed down as Tradition, and would have been as important as the guidelines of the epistles themselves. But if we take the sola scriptura route, there is no way to verify the validity of these practices based on the Bible alone if one is in the 16th century or the 21st century. This is problematic as key Christian practices and doctrine taught by Paul/the apostles and maintained by the early church would be thrown out, much like throwing the baby with the bath water. One needs an external authority that has preserved Tradition and maintains methods to ensure its validity - the Church. Indeed, the Bible itself speaks in the epistles to follow the traditions handed down to the churches by Paul and the apostles. The attempt at verifying Tradition based on the Bible will thus necessarily result in key doctrine and practices being seen as false.
>You place too much authority on the Bible
>>25090226>can’t argue, so let me pull goyim meme instead
>>25090266>argues rome is the authority that keeps scripture from being misinterpreted>ignores that rome’s doctrine has been all over the place for the last 2,000 years
>>25090309>rome’s doctrine>ignores that papal magisterium or the catholic church was not mentioned at all, only an orthodox priestThanks for confirming you can’t read, Saar Rajesh!
>>25090216Circular reasoning. If the Bible is too unclear to be interpreted without an authority, the verse you use to (erroneously) establish yourselves as that authority is, also, too unclear to be interpreted. You cannot claim the source is unreliable for the layman while simultaneously relying on that same source to prove your own reliability.
>>25090318I usually don't bother to read Roman or Eastern nonsense, so you'll have to excuse me, but the same argument applies. Actually it's far more applicable to the Eastern Church that is in constant flux.
>prots talking about unchanging doctrine when they have 1 million denominations that are constantly in mitosisEven the Lutherans weren’t spared from the eternal Protestant desire to prove that somehow one’s own backwater church knew better than any central authority, even if that authority was Lutheran itself.
>>25090322>scriptures are too unclearThis isn’t my point, rather it was that key traditions might not be recorded in written scripture. Scripture might be clear in what it contains, but not contain everything needed for Christian practice that would’ve been taught orally by the apostles. And the Scripture itself affirms that tradition must be upheld.
>>25089784>Read the Bible and become a traditional Roman Catholicoxymoron
>>25079444>Paradife Loft expresses a heretical understanding of the Holy Trinity and Subtly so. iirc people mostly know this due to Milton's private writings rather than sussing it out of the poem itself. >its theodicy is (in my opinion) unconvincing.So? OP didn't ask for convincing philosophy.
>>25090388Scripture affirms that a unwritten code must be upheld by a central authority? Was it an oversight on the part of God to have left it out of the Bible?
>>25090436You decide, christcuck. It’s your book after all, with all its failures and woefully human character imbued into its every verse instead of anything divine. When Iron Age Buddhism was talking about cultivating compassion for beings in other worlds your “saints” and “fathers” were advocating for “just war” and paying lip service to turning the other cheek.
>>25090707What an outburst
>>25079274How about general history books on european countries since?
>>25091785>>25079274There’s been some recommendations on Protestant philosophy on this thread, but if you’re looking for post-Reformation history a general history of the early modern period of North & West Europe and America will suffice. A biography of Luther, with some academic historical commentary added, will give a reasonable understanding of the Reformation as it happened to the Protestants. The development of Protestantism (specifically Lutheranism in Continental Europe, Anglicanism in England, and the Presbyterians and Methodists in America) is closely tied to “secular” history in these countries, and there is no point in looking at specifically religious sources to study Protestant history.Pre-reformation history depends a lot on your denomination. Lutherans tend to view themselves as the Catholic Church but reformed through a foundation in scripture, so Catholic history is still worth studying. A Pentecostal on the other hand would denounce the entire medieval period as the church being lost and wandering.
>>25091947I attended a "Church of Christ" which believe similarly to the Pentecostals that they're a continuation of the original apostolic church of the first century. They refuse to be called a "denomination", and view all other denominations as being in error. They don't hold that the church was ever lost, just widely corrupted by false teaching, and that there have always been Christians practicing the true faith. Ironically, I'm not aware of any historical accounts of any groups following their particular beliefs and practices to a T. Great acapella worship music, though.
>>25091982I was a Pentecostal for most of childhood (no longer, thank God kek). Here’s what I was taught, and yes I was a Bible and Sunday School nerd:>early churchWas mostly Pentecostal, but heretics like gnostics and others remained>ecumenical councilsMostly heretical, Constantine is single-handedly responsible for fucking Christianity up, and the other councils are just fat clergy spouting dogwater.>medieval periodPockets of “true” Pentecostal Christianity remained in Europe, but were always suppressed by the oh-so-evil Catholic and Orthodox churches with their beard-twirling priests burning on the stake the poor, poor Pentecostals to whom the Holy Spirit revealed truth to. The iconoclast controversy was a partial return to truth, but ultimately failed.>reformationLuther was based at first but ultimately failed to completely filter evil Catholicism and purify it to get the “true” Pentecostal Christianity. Oh, and the Anglicans are corrupt.>early modernThe Methodists got almost all of their shit right, and only lacked in an actual central emphasis on the power of the Holy Spirit and tongues in facilitating “true” Christian practice. This was remedied by the 19th century revival movements that spawned Pentecostalism, which were interpreted as the Holy Spirit working through men directly as it had done so in all previous periods of history, except back then the men who had the Spirit were suppressed violently and now they weren’t.>modernNow, it is the Laodicean period, the “end times”, the last years before the promised Rapture, and we muzt evangelize!!!
>>25092011Church of Christ is against any creed or confession, and seem to be against systematic theology. They're often accused of being a cult, because of the inherent lack of assurance in their doctrine. They don't seem to like bringing up the Restoration movement they sprang from, either. Preferring to think of themselves as the one true faith having been practiced since the time of Christ. I still attend the CoC, I'm just a secret Calvinist because I don't think the Presbyterians would welcome and accept h'yuck poor white trash like me. I'm not a hardliner on anything, and a lot of my study is trying to discern what is essential, and what is merely tradition or cultural.
>>25092039Yeah, desu a lot of the history is from my personal reading than what was explicitly taught to me at church. The Pentecostal church I went to also preferred to refer to itself as the authentic early church, handed down to us in the modern age through the Holy Spirit’s guidance. They had doctrine, but a lot of it was about the saving power of baptism and the “baptism by the Spirit” than anything else, as well as an emphasis on frugal living.I’m no longer a Pentecostal, as the emphasis on the Spirit and its power did not line up at all with the obvious lip-synced gibberish that they called “speaking in tongues”. Currently leaning towards Lutheranism, but the lack of churches in my immediate area is a bummer.
>>25090327>Eastern Church that is in constant fluxpapism changes faster driven by the whips of their masters. the high priests had the crystals and caiaphas had the authority to prophesy truly about the Lord, and they still got it wrong
>>25092059start from your fundamental belief in matthew mark luke john paul peter james jude and what they believed, the ευαγγελιον, evangelical is a great name for a church. i just wish evangelical pastors were less deracinated, the reason for deemphasizing greek in schools is to prevent understanding of Christianity
>>25092110Crystals? No idea what you're talking about. Aren't you the guys who hot glue crystals onto skeletons then blow smoke on the bones and whisper incarnations?I'm not a fan of Catholicism either, but I'd take a Catholic in my foxhole over you weirdo mystics any day.
>>25092152Incantations*
>>25079274How’s your gf faggot
>>25092152in the mosaic covenant God gave the judges two crystals to ask God questions with, the urim and thummim, the nature of how they were used isnt recorded but the fact that they were used to ask God questions is. but they were unable to keep the israelites on track
>>25092133They are not the same. Simply by reading Mark and John side by side I could tell one was written at least a generation or more after the other. The epistles are not free of forgery, and a heavy amount of literary interpretation is needed to reconcile Paul with Christ. Not that this is impossible, but rather that if you think that scripture is "clear" in the way many protestants believe it to be, you are wrong.After all, it was from this same scriptural basis that Pentecostalism, Baptist churches, Lutheranism and Reformed Christianity all used to inform their many varied beliefs. Do not attempt to say that these churches are wrong when they too started from the gospels and the epistles put above all tradition and ritual. Do not attempt to say that they all speak of the same truth either, we both know that isn't true.
>>25092319dang u could really tell all that by urself? U r so smart
>>25092319>heavy amount of literary interpretation is needed to reconcile Paul with Christpaul james peter and john did actually disagree, famously at the council of jerusalem, but theyre also emphasizing different aspects of the same doctrine, and matthew mark luke and john are compared to the four faces lion ox man eagle of those angels. to be Christian is to be free to have your own opinions and preferences, as seen in the original Christians, if not in pauls arguments about grace>Pentecostalism, Baptist churches, Lutheranismthese are broadly the same>and Reformed Christianitythis is a communist coup, as yarvin explained a decade ago, dedicated to declaring yourselves elect and therefore arrogating the right to stone the adulteress
>>25093099>As Yarvin explained Shalom
>>25093104does that make yarvin wrong about progressivism, calvinism, and the left as a social forcecalvin: ....but you are the elect, and have the right to rule over these reprobates for their own goodmarx: ...but you are the scientist, and have the right to rule over these lumpenproletariat for their own goodrosenbaum: ...but you are the capitalist, and have the right to rule over these collectivists for their own good
>>25093246psyarvin: ...but you are the neoreactionary dark elf, you have the right to rule over these hobbits for their own goodafter he stopped being moldbug, yarvin had a choice, he could of followed the logic of neoreaction and become a Christian, but he chose to say we live in the 2000's because he wanted that sense of year zero of perfect human felicity that the 20th century had
>>25093259>he chose to say we live in the 2000's because he wanted that sense of year zero of perfect human felicity that the 20th centuryhe asserted this on a podcast somewhere
>>25093099>broadly the sameunless the catholic ecumenism actually works, I'm gonna take that with a giant boulder of salt, thanks. pentecostals genuinely do believe the holy spirit works through them and that the baptists and lutherans are wrong as fuck, for instance.>reformed=communismdamn I guess marxists gotta owe their philosophy to fucking calvin instead of marx kek. lets not forget marxists give great credit to hegel, a lutheran philosopher, for their dialectic philosophy. not even reformed kek. do you even read bro?
>>25093272>pentecostals genuinely do believe the holy spirit works through them and that the baptists and lutherans are wrong as fuckpentecostals say they have the gifts of the apostles. theyre wrong, those had faded by the time paul told timothy to drink some wine for his health. but thats not damnable heresy, just the charming kind, bless their hearts. lutherans are hung up on the express words of luther who was a political figure and have somewhat less magical things to say about the Lord's supper and infant baptism than papists, bless their hearts. an honest lutheran follows sola scriptura and is a reformer like luther and is functionally an evangelical. i once heard a pentecostalist pastor preach a correct sermon about speaking in tongues, that it is an extraordinary gift of the Holy Ghost to help a Christian reach someone who doesnt share a language. also you forgot methodists because as noted on king of the hill by cartoonist mike judge no one really know what methodism is. also pastor anderson thinks paul was telling timothy to drink grape juice
>>25093272>marxists gotta owe their philosophy to fucking calvinmarxism is calvinism is yarvins big claim that got him so famous and got so many Christians interested in the neoreactionary criticism of progressivism. whereas previous Christians had seen progressivism as not a thing or just politics or even Christian politics as social Gospel (n.b. social is the english version of anti, meaning the opposite of a thing that also stands in its place), moldbug identifies progressivism as heresy against Christianity. thats why the neoreactionaries retvrned to the fundamentalist churches as a becoming of who they are
>>25093289don't disagree, just wanna add>correct sermon about speaking in tonguesLanguage is only useful if it has certain patterns. Every linguistic analysis of glossalia and speaking in tongues has resulted in the same conclusion: it's not even random noise, but a conscious attempt by the human mind to create something that superficially sounds foreign to them. To get mogged by science this badly is quite horrible, even the pagans don't stoop that low.>no one knows what methodism isBased. "Wesleyan Quadrilateral" my ass, if they truly kept scripture and tradition on the same level and developed proper techniques for applying reason and experience they'd end up with the Orthodox Sacred Tradition view where the Bible is on the same level as Tradition and reason and mystical experience are both synergistic instead of antagonistic.>Luther was politicalIt tells you something when materialist (Marxist) historiography can predict the spread of Lutheranism entirely based on how Northern Europe wanted to be free from the clutches of Rome for the sake of materialistic economic growth. Those kings and princes did not seek Lutheranism due to its truth in Christian practice, they simply did so for more $$$, this is the simplest explanation based on the real, historical spread of Lutheranism in Europe.
>>25093306right. which is why it was remarkable that this pentecostal assembly of God pastor had a correct Biblically sourced sermon about tongues. and later said he does it in private, which is weird. you can believe me or not about this one pastor because he had that contradiction. but being silly doesnt make them not saved any more than baptising babies and consequently refusing to be baptized as adults, which following the logic of the New Testament is urged but not strictly necessary
>>25093360It differs imo as baptism is a ritual with supernatural benefits while speaking in tongues has no connection to any spoken human language. I have heard some describe it as "the language of heaven", but when the sounds can be statistically analyzed that's a tough sell. The doctrine of "baptism saves" is much more disconnected from anything physical.
>>25093400yeah. the pastor was saved and had read the Bible and the Holy Spirit came upon him and had him speak in the tongue of the people who were listening.the problem with baptizing people who dont choose to be baptized is those people didnt choose it. but beyond offering salvation, [1 Jn 1] says the Lord is just to clease of unrighteousness the person who confesses his sins to the Lord. typically asking for a miracle would be putting the Lord to a test but this is a supernatural right that the Lord gives His votaries. but it all starts with metanoia, which isnt just intellectual knowledge shared with every angel and demon but a decision
>>25093424>and the Holy Spirit came upon him and had him speak in the tongue of the people who were listeningI’ve heard this many times on many a pentecostal pulpit. It so happens that the “speaking in tongues” is never a complete language, but bits and pieces legible enough for someone to correlate and let confirmation bias do the work. Pentecostal pastors are great at giving thunderous speeches halfway through the sermon, raising their voice and speaking with authority as if they were Jesus himself. It’s a classic trick, and after a decade of having a hundred pastors peddle the same thing it wears off its magic and you see the emotional conditioning that they lead you on, from the initial worship session to the sermon to the final prayers.>the problem with baptizing people who didn’t chooseMaybe try reading why Lutherans prescribe infant baptism before you go off with your “the Bible says…” and start quoting verses by themselves without any literary and contextual interpretation of other verses or books.
Every lit thread on Christianity is filled with non-Christians offering unorthodox views on Christianity and then getting very upset when someone says "huh? that doesn't sound right"
>>25094980and inter-denominational bickering, of course, but thats to be expected.
>>25094980>>25094983Acting like this isn’t seen in the Islam or Buddhism threads is great cherrypicking. Buddhism threads have a tendency to not last five replies before someone mentions Theravada and Pali Canon-only views as the only “true” way to do things, then a ruckus only Sun Wukong could dream of is made between the Tibetans, Zen, Thai Forest and Tantric schools. Islam threads get junked up with Sufi wannabe mystics and Guenon fans on one side and Quranists on the other, with Sunni orthodox believers in the middle trying to end a shouting match with more shouting.
>>25094998lol oh okay
>>25094998>>25094980
>>25095088>I posted epstoon look at me senpai im so edgy
>>25095108Take a deep breath, Mohammed
>>25079274>btw didnt we have a non-fiction general to post these kind of requests onThe real question here. /lit/ has fallen.
>>25094943>“speaking in tongues” is never a complete languageright. this was enough of a problem in the first century that [1 Cor 14] was written to address it. im not here to say pentecostalists arent being silly, they need to read [1 Cor 14] and listen to that one pentecostalist pastor who correctly identified what the gift of tongues means. furthermore its possible to question the dedication of their churches, dismiss them as cranks, as everyone who isnt a pentecostalist has for the entire 20th century including matt judge in that king of the hill episode about religion. i never really knew any pentecostalists but they seem like kind of a bantown like 4chan really
>>25094943>why Lutherans prescribe infant baptismthere are two ways of identifying as a Christian, you can either give your salvation testimony making the other person have to be an inquisitor and listen and figure out if youre telling the truth: for example listening to the salvation testimony of nikki haleys son on tucker, hes obviously bullshitting and didnt want to say why he got saved, because it was personal or political. or you can say 'i was baptised by pastor paul johnson at first Bible evangelical in moralton, statesota' and the other person has to decide whether he trusts paul johnson, first Bible evangelical of moralton, statesota, the evangelical movement. so i told the mormons who came a knocking the other day about the day i was baptized, which wouldnt have had any informational content if i had been baptized as an infant.paul says hes glad he didnt baptise many people in corinth so they wouldnt talk about being baptized directly by an apostle, also he has some people who were baptized with the baptism of john baptized properly. i think all the people who were baptized as infants need to every man dunk his brother in the pool> Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
>>25079274>addressed to people coming from an exclusively catholic environmentI wonder what you mean by this
Calvin
