What Gundam MC had the most underwhelming upgrade to their Gundam?
I always preferred original Freedom over Strike Freedom.
Underwhelming in terms of "wow that shit was useless" or "HURR IT DOESN'T LOOK COOL ENOUGH!!!"?If the former then Stutterta, if the latter then Amuro.
>>22582993The full armoured look is much cool than the regular ZZ.Its combiner nature is fucking stupid, should never have been part of it. Should have been a big fucking tank gundam from the start.
>>22583005>Not liking the black and white colors of Nu
>>22583009>NuThat's a new ms entirely.
>>22582993barbatos, mostly because every single one of the upgrades is still an ugly piece of shit
>>22583005>Hating the Nu GundamShit taste detected.Even the worst piece of trash looks so much better when done up Nu.The Hi-Nu is actually a massive visual downgrade because of its colorscheme (also because its not asymmetrical)
>>22583023Hi Nu (cca-msv) is the best looking UC Gundam matched only by Mk-II and F91
>>22583008Nah the combiner is cool and iconic.
>>22582993I have no idea why S2 dropped the ball so hard on mech design after the stellar everything in S1.
>>22583032It's not even the best Nu Gundam. Also, as much as I hated the ff at first I did grow to love it when I went to Side-F and saw it presented well
>>22583076S1 Gundams were too complicated to animate. S2 Gundams had more simple designs.
>>22583101Animators of major animes are just lazy and the companies behind them penny-pinchers
>>22583108And your skin is the color of wet cardboard.
>>2258307600 is cooler than ExiaRaiser not do much but still
>>22583095RG's proportions are FUBAR and the face is fucked. It's like a clean, sanitizer and generic lowest common denominator "heroic" design with giant legs, giant v fin and insanely small torso. It's like someone was told what Hi Nu looked like by someone who hasn't seen it (in any version) in years.It has none if the unique flair that makes Hi Nu great like the long, pharaoh-esque chin or the remarkably small size for a high performance suit if that era, particularly when contrasted with Nightingale. And yet it keeps that relatively small size in equilibrium with a prodigious sense of bulk, giving the feeling of a true ace machine that's designed with balance in all qualities while also elevating them all to absolute peak, truly earning the title if the greatest mobile suit of its age.On other words, get bent normie.
>>22582993Depends on what you're after when it comes to the meaning of upgradeLike if replacing the entire is allowed and we're talking capability then that goes to Suletta and Caliburn. She went from remote weapons and big gun to just a big gun.If you mean upgrade as in what's added to the suit then that's the original Gundams Magnetic Coating. It was a very minor performance boost for the thing.If you mean upgrade and we're talking aesthetically that's the God/Burning Gundam. It's a huge step down from Shining.If you want a general opinion then to me it goes to Altron EW. It doesn't look particularly good,it doesn't have its beam weapon the TV version anymore because it just doesn't nor is it exactly more capable than the TV version either and might as well be something used for construction.
>>22582993All the 00 Setsuna shit because I can’t tell any of them apart
>>22583135
>>22583131Look, you've clearly thought about this a lot and I will give you every bit of credit for that, but I disagree. Well, I actually agree the torso is too small, bur broadly I disagree. I like the somewhat generic face because it makes it feel very iterative of the RX-78-2 and brings it full circle, Amuro's ultimate suit more than the ultimate newtype suit. I was put off by the bulk, it gives me an impression of a Full Armor variant which I've never cared for (though the FA Nu is probably my favorite of the FA suits) and the more slim frame of the RG reflects against the bulk of the Nightingale better to my sensibilities. In other words: Fuck you, I liked it
>>22583197It was actually a completely spur of the moment thing fueled entirely by love, my anger, and all of my sorrow together with autistic rage at the sight of a different opinion
>>22583008>Its combiner nature is fucking stupid, should never have been part of it. It was the 80s, dude. It was the 80s.
>>22582993the million Barbatos upgrades
>>22583273They weren't upgrades in the strict sense, and more just salvaged parts they kept slapping onto the barbatos's frame since the original parts are long gone
>>22583131RG Hi Nu is everything the 2006 redesign should have been, which is an actual offense to MS design.The more generic face is offset by the still sharp helmet which keeps it its characteristic menacing side-profile and depending on the angle even main profile. While no longer a pharaoh it still gives off a monstrous insect demon-like look. The smaller torso is weird in a standing pose but this is easily offset by giving it a more dynamic pose. Most importantly however the RG gives Hi Nu back its chunk in the legs and the backpack, the removal of which is what completely killed the 2006 redesign. The majorest of flaws with the RG Hi Nu may perhaps be the 2006 redesign colorscheme, again excusable if one grew up with the Wipeout series of game and their favorite team was Assegai (such as me).But as for the root of my argument>normieNice job invalidating your whole opinion, mcfuckface.
>>22583292*series of games.Please excuse my angry typo and lack of attached image.
>>22582993The V2 Assault Booster was trash in the show, taken out in its first deployment (half of it by freaking handheld bazookas). I'm really surprised so many games give it actual final suit treatment, because in the show itself it was thrown away like trash.
>>22583135The EW versions are in general fucking stupid from that perspective. All of them are strictly downgrades from the TV version's armaments except arguably the heavy arms(trading a dinky knife for more gatlings is reasonable). Nevermind their nonsensical existence from a lore perspective where they were supposed to be the exact same machines as were in the show, despite being obviously different.
>>22583302>I'm really surprised so many games give it actual final suit treatment, because in the show itself it was thrown away like trash.It's mainly due to the base V2 having very basic options so V2 with the AB parts ends up naturally as a powerup in most cases.
>>22583302Victory era suits are made out of tissue paper in general. It's not really surprising that they can get fucked by a zook when you have weaker armor than a zaku.
>>22583309The explanation for the EW designs being a weapons downgrade was that they were in the same condition from the end of the last war and they didn't bother repairing or replacing much because they planned on dumping the Gundams into the sun. That said, there are still too many visual inconsistencies to cleanly tie end of Wing TV into start of Wing EW.The Glory of Losers manga is kind of an attempt at retelling Wing with visual consistency, with the EW style designs from the beginning. They also emphasize that the Gundams did have extra equipment used during the war against OZ (conveniently all new and different stuff they could use to sell models and merchandise) that wouldn't survive all the way to the events of Endless Waltz, again tying into the idea that the Gundam and their pilots took on Mariemaia's rebellion with just what they had on them.
>>22583477
>>22582993The one that still gets me to this day is AGE-3 Orbital. It gets advertised in the opening as one of the two main alternate forms to the AGE-3, but it barely lasts half of its introductory episode and half of the next before being scrapped. Yet another victim of Hino's poor directing.
>>22583547It really was a baffling choice. Such a waste of a design.
>>22583493That doesn't really work when manga D-Hell EW has a scythe with two blades and the movie version has one. Though, the newest version has like 4 scythes including the original anime and movie versions so you could argue it lost all except one in the final battle. Really, Wing's MS are kind of crazy with how many redesigns they get and since it never gets any new animations, you can't argue what's canon and what's just merchandise fluff.
>>22583578Doesn't help that the manga came almost 15 years after the show aired either, so even as an attempt to try to reimagine things to fit together it feels weird.
>>22583244>>22583046I never got the internal logic of the transforming mechs in Zeta and ZZ. You're in space, there's no wind, shape does not matter. Turning into more of a dense brick is not going to make you go faster. At least the Zeta has some reason to exist as an atmospheric entry machine, but is that really better then just giving the Mark II a disposable flyer?
>>22583620Hypothetically, if you point all your boosters in one direction it would give you greater thrust. However you don't really need a transformation to do that.
>>22583620why are americans like this
>>22583493desu I don't particularly care about visual inconsistency; I like the designs more and I think that's a perfectly fine tradeoff.
>>22583620
>>22583009>>22583023I think he means the magnet coating on the OG Gundam dummies
>>22583477Amazing.
>>22583672All that downsizing and gotta go fast had to come at a cost. That cost was armor, under the logic that beams are gonna fuck you if your armor gets hit regardless. They forgot about ballistic weapons older MS would have shrugged off.
>>22583620>I never got the internal logic of the transforming mechs in Zeta and ZZBeing able to transform means all your thrusters can be pressed in one direction and also enables you to lower your size,change the cockpits area and create new attack opportunities. That's why they did it and yes it was better than just giving MS' disposable flyers because of what I said about size.I'll give though that the ZZ had no real reason to be doing it. It was.... Way too big and actually put the cockpit EXACTLY in front of it>>22583497I don't think the issue there was the armor. That's a death from explosion. It's more so unstable as fuck tech.
>>22583692>That's a death from explosion. It's more so unstable as fuck tech.Why do you think there was an explosion in the scene to begin with? The only damage she took was being smacked by a beam launcher.
>>22583692That's debatable. While it's true the pilot got exploded the reason it exploded in the first place is that the armor was insufficient to withstand a simple blunt impact. I mean just look at the result, the arm is completely crushed, the backpack is shattered, and all of that force went straight into the torso and reactor. This coming from suits that could straight up fist fight each other without any sort of specialization without causing all that much damage to either suit not that many years prior. I don't think it's really that controversial to say victory suits are very lightly armored by design compared to suits prior to the shift to small MS. Like if the Nu punched a victory era suit it would be like a semi truck hitting a modern aluminum car. It's just much larger, heavier, and harder.
>>22583547This is definitely the one. Orbital is just pathetic. I can't even remember what it's particular advantage was supposed to be because it gets tossed so quickly.
>>22583625Why are you like this?
>>22583703It had those homing beam shots I think? That ended up doing nothing.
>>22583620Sell toys.
>>22583497The deaths in Victory were fucking stupid.
All the EW versions of the Wing suits are a common answer, but they really are a step down as far as armaments and features go. At least GoL re-added some stuff to them. And while not a Gundam, I prefer the vanilla Alteisen to the Riese. Replaying OGs and I forgot how much I prefer the sort of blockier look the original Alt has over the rounded look of Riese.
>>22583620>I never got the internal logic of the transforming mechs in Zeta and ZZ.Probably want to capitalize transforming mecha trends at the time
>>22583855Yeah, it was clearly a marketing move, hence why so many fucking MS in the zeta anime have the gimmick forced into them
>>22583135Was the Caliburn even intended to be better than the Aerial in any way other than "this one won't reject you for being a shitty clone" and actually being a mech that her side were in possession of? Normally Gundam upgrades take one of two forms, either "the original mech but better" or "the original mech but more optimised in one direction at the cost of something else." In that sense it feels like the Aerial Rebuild was the "upgrade" Gundam for GWitch and the Caliburn was just the suit she piloted at the end of the series. Man, that show still has me questioning the production decisions and I'm not sure if that is a good thing because it still has me thinking about it, or a bad thing because most of those thoughts boil down to "were they just all pretending to be retarded or were they actually so?"
The Zeta, outside of being the "protagonist MS", it doesnt do much to show that its the premiere gundam of the time. Most of the time while Kamille uses it, its usually somehow has the lower hand. They shouldve just stuck to the Mk2 or introduced the zeta alot sooner. For being a Gundam, its vastly underwhelming and more often than not portrayed as just another run of the mill MS. If anything there was more of a "OH FUCK ITS A GUNDAM" thing with the ZZ. Zeta had only "oh look another gundam lol"
>>22582993The magnet coating for the original was pretty lame, and then he ended up tossing out the big upgrade that daddy Tem tried to give him
>>22583892There's no reason a Gundam should be the be-all and end-all, it was that during the OYW because it was the first Federation MS and happened to be notably higher performance than the Zaku II thus putting Zeon into shock.The Zeta is also a pretty huge improvement over the MkII, which has nothing going for it beyond the Gundam face.
>>22583101>S1 Gundams were too complicated to animate. S2 Gundams had more simple designs.And yet we got stuff like Gundam Hathaway's Flash or Seed Freedom or G-Reco
>>22583901>first Federation MS and happened to be notably higher performance than the Zaku II thus putting Zeon into shock. What shocked Zeon pilots wasn't the performance of GMs. It was the beam weapons GMs used. Also the fact the Federation could make so many GMs.
>>22583855>>22583857>noo don't make a cool design in my hecking serious military operaWhy the fuck are americans like this?
>>22584042Why are you so obsessed with Americans, whenever something upsets you personally suddenly you whinge about America.
>>22584055Maybe stop taking his shitty bait.
>>22583901>MkII, which has nothing going for it beyond the Gundam faceAt the time of its deployment, Mk2 was the most agile Ms in existence by a comfortable margin. It was undergunned for its time period but the movable frame was a big deal. >>22584042Transformation is only cool until you need to transform the model kit
>>22584055He is not wrong though.
>>22583901If Mk-II had nothing going for it, why did they base Barzams and GM-IIIs on it?It was useful at least until the end of war with Neo Zeon, even after losing G-Defenser.
>>22583897>he ended up tossing out the big upgrade that daddy Tem tried to give himOh; you'd love the SRW 30 Hi-nu Gundam DLC, where it turns out that it's not "T for Tomino" but is actually "T for Tem" as the perfected psycoframe in 30's Hi-Nu is at its core, Tem Ray's original circuit that Amuro originally binned, but then in later years found its way into Chan and Bel's hands who ran with it and that lead to perfecting the imperfect psycoframe that Char handed them before. The kicker is that the Hi-Nu plotline was apparently written as a joint effort with the original writing staff and with their blessing, so it's semi-official to boot.
>>22584208That's fun.
>>22582993This guy. It's just a whatever upgrade. I love barbatos in general so it's not a bad thing.>>22583547Didnt it also get fucked up by darkhound soon after?
>>22582993>ZZ full armor>Anons saying any Barbatos upgrade, even Lupus Objectively it's Aerial Rebuild, they just slapped a flight pack on it and that was it, that was the only upgrade it got in the entire show and it didn't improve the design.
>>22584459>more mobility>more firepowerWhat else do you want? I guess it could've used some extra armor but it's not so bad.
>>22584459Barbatos upgrades are underwhelming like it or not.
>>22584459Whats wrong with it? It already had everything else it needed. If anything Aerial started with TOO much bullshit.Not every gundam needs a fucking double ultimate super mode.
>>22584459>it didn't improve the design.The darker blue improved its appearance immensely, gets rid of the generic Parade Colors paintjob.
>>22582993Domon. God Gundam is ass.
>>22584513The God Gundam carries the rising sun on its back. Nippon Damashii!!
>>22584513Rising is the real upgrade to Shining
>>22584576Nah. Rising is gay too. So is Shining. In fact all of G Gundam sucks.
>>22584583>Man without taste
>>22583886>Was the Caliburn even intended to be better than the Aerial in any wayIt's not being better it's just you expect more. They gave Caliburn quite a bit of hype like with how it kills its pilots which is often a sign of a badass unit(See: Blue Destinies,Zero System, Alaya-Vijnana,Unicorn, probably some others) or how it's the literal crutch unit of the final battle raid and then you see it fight and the most notable thing the unit pulls off is that it flies around like(haha what a kicker) a witch.
>>22584654Unicorn is also trash with how it hypes up its shitty signature beam rifle.Like in the following series when bannanas is using it with the Silver Bullet and for absolutly no reason it destroys the arm with each shot, despite there being examples of much stronger beam weapons in Gundam that don't wreck the MS upon firing.
>>22584590>HAHA le spic gendum with power of le crossing le border XDDDDDDDThanks for proving my point.
>>22584521"Burning" Gundam was a better name than God Gundam, even if it was just the result of US censors being afraid to piss off Christian conservatives. >Shining>Rising>Burningit all works so well, God Gundam just sticks out.
>>22584697This is fair, but Dark Gundam is lame.
>>22584697>>22584698All of G Gundam is lame. Normies and casuals only remember it for memes and funny racism. Ignoring all of that it's just Dragon Ball and Fist Of The North Star for dumb robot loving babies
>>22584697Absolutely not. Shining and Rising are sister units, whereas God is a successor and Neo-Japan's flagship for the final stage of the tournament. Plus, it's just more appropriate given the design, it's positively oozing in religious symbology yo the point it is like a Buddhist war deity turned into a robot. It's just that a lot of these design cues are lost on western audiences which expect it to be associated with Abrahamic God.
>>22583095>>22583032Hi Nu looks like shit.
>>22584914Objectively wrong.
>>22583131Fans of the MSV Hi-Nu really ought to drop the complaints about the RG and Ver.Ka's proportions considering the comically oversized head and dangly arms of the MSV lineart.
>>22585009The head is the best part though. Especially the chin.
>>22583892I got the idea the Zeta's forte was that it was fast. Hell even in ZZ there are moments in which team Judau has to rely on the Zeta over the ZZ because it's both quicker and lighter than the ZZ.
>>22583620Turning mecha into personal starfighters is quite useful.
>>22584891Must be a sad existence to type this all out.
I think it's pretty funny how Nu is just the classic movie design and the recent models that give the original design more greeble whereas Hi Nu has a bunch of different revisions that mix and match different elements between one another. Almost like one was carefully planned out and the other is an afterthought
>>22584656you have no idea how any of that works
>>22583135All the EW designs are downgrades.
>>22583140Even this?
>>22583620I assume it was to change the shape and make normally less useful parts like legs floating into folded parts. Smaller target I assume.Or be like the Bawoo and split.
>>22583901>MkII, which has nothing going for it beyond the Gundam face.It's possibly the most influential mech in several decades due to the movable frame concept. In that sense, it's one of the most realistic prototypes in Gundam in that it's meant to test this feature and not be some one-man army. In that role, it set the stage for what would be the norm for years.
>>22582993Maybe Garrod.DX kicks ass but Divider is arguably better
>>22582993Full Armor Unicorn. Totally wasted. >Novel version - solos fights an entire Neo Zeon battle fleet. Including several battleships and several dozen Neo Zeon mobile suits. Wrecks Neo Zeon and forces them back. A total Chad suit. >Anime version - spends half the episode getting smacked around by Banshee. Gets 75% of its equipment destroyed by Banshee. Arrives to fleet battle with barely any equipment left. Disables maybe 5 Neo Zeon suits. The suit is largely forgotten and not rebuilt. Banagher doesn't want to use it again. I have no idea what the anime creators were thinking. The novel version is so much better. Why waste Full Armor Unicorn fighting Banshee? It's not dueling suit. It's a suit meant to take on lots of enemies. Wasted potential.
>>22585717gee whiz almost like you don't get to use things in perfectly optimal conditions and you're just putting together what you got and using it when you must
>>22585740Anon you faggot, it has nothing to do with that. Its entirely down to the writers of the anime being shit at creating action scenes.There's no reason to stick that amount of bulky crap to the unicorn if it isn't going to fullfill a specific mission.
>>22585740Anon they completely changed the role of Full Armor Unicorn in the anime. In the novel It was meant to spam a bunch of weapons at the Neo Zeon fleet and protect the Nahel Argama. Think of FA Unicorn like Gundam Heavyarms. Spam missiles and bullets everywhere to defeat a large enemy force. But in the anime they made FA Unicorn fight Banshee 1v1 for some reason.
>>22585717>power level and kill count shitIt's as if you didn't understand the whole goddamned point of the OVA.
>>22585755many such cases, Unicorn is the best filter in Gundam
>>22585755That's literally what happened in the novel
>>22585765>muh novelalmost like things were FIXED for the ova
Unicorn fans are thin-skinned and refuse to accept there's anything wrong with their shit show.
>>22585771woooow anon, you really showed us! such a clever comeback
>>22582993>just the Build Burning but with more blueKamiki Burning should've been his mid season upgrade. In fact, he should've built his own Gunpla midway through the show, not literally at the very last episode.
>>22585633Fitting to its name, it really was a true leap on the level of the Gundam. The RX-78 wasn't the first mobile suit, but it refined the concept to the core performance needs and equipment loadout that every conventional suit after would draw on. Even before the end of the war you see its influence spreading with the Gelgoog.Similarly the MKII set the standard for how to actually build the damn things. Its internal design, mobile frame, streamlined core feature set and focus on performance and agility over protection really defined how to make a proper high performance mobile suit. It's not really until CCA that you start seeing a creep towards size to maximise generator size and output changing the game, and even then the basic designs remain similar. Amuro designed the Nu to be his Char-killer and it's basically just a modernised MKII, I don't know how much higher praise you could really give it.
>>22585755>point of the OVA.Which is what?
>>22585717Agreed. The novel battle with full Armor was way better.
>>22585291The only bad Hi Nu is the 2006 one, All the rest are good.
>>22585974HI-Nu is for people with OCD and hate asymmetric designs.
Wow Unicorn anime fans are touchy. They got upset as soon as anon said FA Unicorn didn't follow the novel story.
>>22586160More power to people that like it but I'll never get the appeal myself. The entire draw of the Nu is that it's this powerful, sleek refinement of the classic Gundam look. It's the final evolution of that the RX-78 and RX-178 started. Such a dominating visual presence without having to resort to massive stacks of guns and equipment or major gimmicks.The Hi-Nu isn't a complete betrayal or anything, but it moves away from that trimmed back rawness. I also think the colour scheme doesn't do it any favours but apparently Hi-Nu fans love the white and purple so whatever.
>>22584899>A localization that makes sense and a better name too.NTA, but I see it as a win-win.
>>22586481I think you replied to the wrong person
>>22584583Not as much as you do, sister
>>22586480Amuro doesn't consider weapons and external equipment as particularly important or worth saving. The only thing that matters to Amuro is the Gundam body itself. That's why Amuro is always tossing away rifles, using decoy bazookas, throwing away his shields, or sending his funnels to do random suicide missions. He uses equipment as part of combat style. Lots of decoys and sacrifices to take down the enemy.The fact they tried to make Hi-Nu 'pretty' and give it funnel angel wings is kinda disgusting. It looks like something from Gundam Seed. Like Freedom Gundam. Amuro wouldn't bother doing that. When Amuro sends a funnel out, he isn't expecting it to return and redock. Thats why Nu Gundam just has a basic disposable rack to hold the funnels until deployed. Then Amuro dumps the extra weight and jettisons the rack. It's unimportant to him. What matters to Amuro is getting the job done. Totally focused on utility and practicality. Nothing fancy.
>>22586487Honestly I don't think the wings look very good either. I much prefer the single wing look of the funnels docked on the regular Nu.But the Nu also looks complete without them, which I think is important.
>>22586494To be fair, it's intended as a field-expedient modification more than an upgrade. Some extra kit rigged from salvaged hardware, and stuff that's more on the ergonomic side than the performance one. Like switching to the apparently less vulnerable antenna over the v-fin.
>>22586482>It was the wrong personShit
>>22586487>Having a reusable funnel rack and complete MS instead of a hacked together rush job is impractical Thanks for reminding me some people here are genuinely just stupid
>>22586487>The fact they tried to make Hi-Nu 'pretty' and give it funnel angel wings is kinda disgusting. It looks like something from Gundam SeedSeinfeld effect. Hi-Nu was the first ever Gundam with angel wings.
>>22586511Amuro would just purge the empty funnel rack. He doesn't like extra weight when piloting. He wants a lean mobile suit. No wasted mass dragging him down.Why do you think he ordered a Nu Gundam (which is just a modernized Rx-78) when he could have ordered another Zeta or even a ZZ Gundam?
>>22586531Reusable funnels and extra thrust are kinda a necessity considering its rival in the story.
>>22584208>semi-official>paid DLCInto the trash it goes
>>22586539I don't think Amuro recalled any funnels against Nightingale. Any funnels Amuro sent against Char were destroyed. And vice versa.
>>22586531Nu is what came after Zeta and ZZ. It was much more advanced than those 2. According to the MG's manual book, it was the peak of Gundam technology at the time with newest and up to date components.
>>22587165Another note, not only highly advanced, Nu is not supposed to be "light weighted and lean". The plan was for it to receive additional upgrade, becoming Full Armor Nu Gundam.
>>22583008>>22583046>Its combiner nature is fucking stupid, should never have been part of it.They had toys to sell, anon. But yeah you're right. The only Gundam pilot who actually used a combining suit effectively was Uso, who often broke into pieces on purpose as a feint or distraction.Anyway, here are the worst updates, in my correct opinion: The Gundams from Endless Waltz. They look so bad compared to the OG and mid-season upgrade versions
>>22587165I've heard conflicting accounts from secondary sources. One source says that Amuro was on a budget and the Nu Gundam was the best they could do with the money they had available.
>>22587222both can be true. It is probably the best MS active in the Earthsphere at this point with only Sazabi as a close competitor.The actual production was also a lightning quick rush in just about 2 months and the deployed machine was anything but complete. The jurry-rigged one-use and imbalanced fin funnel rack is the most notable element.
>>22586494Ez8 seems to use Ground GM armor. They had plenty of that lying around.
>>22587234A rushed super weapon is still a super weapon. Nu is definitely not a weak or outdated mech according to the lore.
>>22586489>But the Nu also looks complete without them, which I think is important.That's the thing about Nu Gundam. It's not just a one off mobile suit. It's a "Platform". Similar to how Zaku or GM can be modified and customized many different ways. That's why Nu Gundam looks complete without anything attached to it. Amuro focused on making the core mobile suit Nu Gundam frame be high performance, and probably realized that relying on external equipment for extra performance is limiting. That's why any "wings" are pointless for Nu Gundam. (Like other anon said....People want funnel wings because they are OCD and can't stand asymmetry. Everything must match) Nu Gundam is the exact opposite of Sazabi. Char made Sazabi into a extremely fine tuned machine built exactly to his wants and desires. Unlike Nu Gundam, Sazabi had no room for customizing it for different people. Not unless you want to remove entire pieces from the Sazabi to make room. It's a highly bespoke suit.
>>22587248Char did make fun of Hi Nu Gundam. He called it very disappointing in one depiction. Unworthy to be used in battle against him.
>>22587248I never said it was?
>>22587254tbf I kind of doubt many non-MA suits could last long against a zippy dodgeball equipped with lots of beam swords and funnels. Hi Nu is fundamentally the same suit as Nu just with the addition of a reusable funnel rack and some extra thrust power.
>>22582993V2 was kind of weak when It debuted but think that was tomino deliberately playing with expectations. The games just tend to make the wings of light overpowered. It's the opposite for Full Armor ZZ where the games always nerf it.
>>22587254Yeah but Char was a faggot who was causing genocide and war purely out of ego to begin with
>>22587165I read that Amuro designed Nu Gundam himself and didn't want any fancy designs. He wanted something rugged and back to basics. That's why he didn't make something like ZZ Gundams head cannon or Zeta's transformation.
>>22587271Uso also just doesn't run the wings of light at max all the time either
>>22587372I read that Amuro wanted a Zeta but they refused to give him one
>>22583023what makes you think he's talking about the Nu? the Dijeh was his ace suit after the Gundam before the Nu was, not to mention the Re-GZ after that.
The attachments on the Hi-Nu symbolize Amuro's burden as a family man. It's that schrimple.
>>22585009The purple gradient patches on the funnels look like shit too.
>>22583131>It's like a clean, sanitizer and generic lowest common denominator "heroic" designAnd what's wrong with that? The only people who'd see anything wrong with standard Gundam design elements are pretentious contrarians.
>>22583907Two of those are modern films with mostly CGI mecha, the other one is half as long as 00 and was helmed by Tomino who has the clout to hog all of Sunrise's top animators.
>>22587372No, Amuro designed it to combat Sazabi, which is one monster of a mobile suit. He wanted it to be powerful, and especially more egoistic than usual. Nu Gundam was the first Gundam to be equiped with Psychomu, making it superior to every previous Gundam models. In old manual books, Nu was called as " Ultimate Gundam type MS "
>>22587545To clear up some confusion, despite the name, the previous "Psycho Gundam" is a mobile armor, not mobile suit so this manual counted Nu as the first Gundam MS to have Psycommu.
>>22587545>Nu Gundam was the first Gundam to be equiped with Psychomu, making it superior to every previous Gundam modelsyou mean psycoframe, not psycommu
>>22587568No, the manual said Psycommu. The psychoframe part is in the cockpit description and not that significant. This is pre Unicorn afterall.
>>22587563Zeta's biosensor is a custom form of psycommu so that defeats the idea of nu being the first gundam type with Psychomu
>>22587585Zeta's ver was quasi psycommu, a truncated and inferior version of actual Psycommu.
To add to this discussion regarding Nu and Amuro, Zeta and ZZ are basically dead-end lines. no further improvements can be made.basically, Delta Plus is the current last product of Zeta line and its still surpassed Zeta's raw specs and Sazabi quite mogs it in output and thrustand Ex-S is the pinnacle result of the ZZ line but we know EFSF are quite the faggots and dont want to give Amuro one.so they really need a new generation of MS that can keep up or trash Sazabi and 𝛎 is the answerthough if they just give Amuro the Narrative, even without psycoframe instead of the ReGZ, Amuro would have killed Char before the first asteroid drop
>>22587607Kind of hard since it didn't fucking exist until the incredibly pointles Unicorn followup.
>>22587594No it's not. Quasi-psycommu is meant for wired weapons and doesn't get invented until Neo Zeon introduces it with the Hamma-Hamma which came months after the Zeta.>>22587607>basically, Delta Plus is the current last product of Zeta line and its still surpassed Zeta's raw specs and Sazabi quite mogs it in output and thrustSazabi still mogs the Nu in output and thrust and it didn't let Char win anyway.
>>22587632>No it's notTruncated form of the original superior ones commonly called "quasi", a Latin word for inferior bootlegs. Zeta's simplified version of Psycommu called "Bio Sensor", basically a bootleg psycommu. Those old manuals refer to Nu as first Gundam MS to have actual Psycommu for a reason.
>>22587616Narrative is literally an unfinished leftover copy of Nu, you can see it having the exact same Nu head and most of its body has exposed inner frame. During the event of Narrative, they just sloppily bolted red Psychoframes on its body and called it an upgrade.
>>22587607Narrative didn't exist during CCA.
>>22587719>Truncated form of the original superior ones commonly called "quasi", a Latin word for inferior bootlegs.Gundam frequently steals words from other languages to use for its tech but does not use the original meaning (Latin or otherwise), so you using it to mean "inferior copy" is confusing since it conflicts with the in-universe "quasi-psycommu" system that already exists. For example, they keep calling certain weapons "beam rifles" even if they don't have rifled barrels. They also don't really bother to provide a distinction between beam weapons and mega particle weapons, and often the terms are used interchangeably. They also use "energy capacitor" to store minovsky particles but not electricity. There's probably more examples elsewhere. Anyway, the specific name "quasi-psycommu" in UC Gundam is used for a certain psycommu type invented by Axis Zeon that is designed to work with oldtype brainwaves, and is unrelated to the biosensor in the Zeta Gundam that came before the quasi-psycommu.Even so, there is nothing that suggests the biosensor is an inferior copy. There is so little information on the biosensor that it qualifies as a poorly written plot device and generic anime powerup, but how do you know if it is inferior or superior to any specific version of the psycommu? If anything, it does do extra things that the original psycommu from the OYW never did, in the form of useful temporary powers.>Those old manuals refer to Nu as first Gundam MS to have actual Psycommu for a reason.And the reason why they don't claim that anymore is because it's no longer true. There's no question that psycoframe is more powerful than psycommu, but what makes the Nu's psycommu truer than the psycommu in the older prototype Psyco Gundam?
>>22587741Narrative and Mu Gundam were prototypes of Nu Gundam. Mu Gundam was just a more completed prototype of Nu Gundam while Narrative is a half prototype of Nu and half prototype of Unicorn
>>22587764You can see that Narrative didn't even have shoulder armor in that shot. It was never a prototype, just some a leftover of a spare Nu.
>>22587767because at that point, they were fixing Narrative and removed the shoulder armor since it sustained some damage against Phenex even with using the A-packs
>>22587584it's not that it's pre-Unicorn, CCA already established psychoframe has tremendous potential, half the plot is about it.But it wasn't part of Nu's design originally, only added at the very last moment when Char leaked it. IIRC the very first lines in the movie are Chan questioning why the hell Nu is lighter than planned specs intended and the engineer explaining they added the new stuff around the cockpit.
>>22587762Except they literally list Bio Sensor as a type of quasi psycommu. Nu is still the first Gundam MS to have actual psycommu installed, making it a cutting edge technology. https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%B5%E3%82%A4%E3%82%B3%E3%83%9F%E3%83%A5
>>22587793mate did you read the article? it's clearly states different sources that call it either quasi-psycommu or a simpler or cheaper psycommu.In other words, it's not to be taken as absolute undeniable gospel.
>>22587783The movie's site describes it as a test MS for psychoframe during the development of Nu. Literally just a spare part of Nu with similar function and never truly exist as an actual MS during CCA.
>>22587799>it's clearly states different sources that call it either quasi-psycommu or a simpler or cheaper psycommu.So i'm right, then?
>>22587813so you're an idiot, then
>>22587793Dude what the fuck, why would you argue that but intentionally fail to tell us the article also says that in the end the biosensor reached a state where:>このシステムはサイコミュのコンパクト化・高密度実装化の点で有利であり、機体の追従性並びに運動性向上に対する効果は、フル・スペックのサイコミュと同等以上のレベルに達している>This system is advantageous in terms of the compactness and high-density implementation of the psycomputer, and its effectiveness in improving the followability and mobility of the machine has reached a level equivalent or superior to that of a full-spec psycomputer.
>>22587793Wasn't the innovation of the Nu and Sazabi the fact both had a Psycho*frame*? IIRC, psychoframe refers to psycommu systems weaved into the MS's frame at the atomic level, compared to machines with conventional psycommu, like the Psyco Gundam, which was fuckhuge to fit the entire psycommu system in it.
>>22587805in short, its a prototype. it was just iglooed since Nu and Unicorn was developed from it.Luio dragged it out of AE's warehouse since it is the closest thing that has the specs that can keep up with the Phenexspecifically, Narrative is a prototype alongside Mu Gundam for the next generation of Gundam after Z and ZZ.
>>22587828correct, it's the next step after miniaturizing psycommu to fit within conventional sized mobile suits, like Qubeley. It just turns out to be exponentially more effective and powerful than anyone could have expected, something like inventing nukes in the middle ages.
>>22587830>since it is the closest thing that has the specs that can keep up with the PhenexDon't they have a spare Sinanju laying around?
>>22587841nta but first time I'm hearing of a third unit, and if there is one then evidently AE wasn't willing or able to provide it for any number of reasons
>>22587831Yeah, so what's this nonsense about it being the first Gundam with a psycommu when there's literally other fucking Gundams with different psycommus running around years before? Nu's claim to fame was always psycoframe, not psycommu.
>>22587850dunno, i'm not the anon trying to argue that random offhand claim is relevant
>>22587831Which reminds me, why was the Psycoframe so powerful compared to other psycommu systems? I mean, it's basically the same thing as a normal psycommu, but fused into the frame. Is it even a problem of the tech itself, or is it due to the freakishly powerful Newtypes that piloted psycoframe equipped suits?
>>22587790It's a neat tidbit how in-universe the v2 in the Hi-Nu's model number indicates the addition of psychoframe and how otherwise it had the exact same model number as the regular Nu.
>>22587830I think this proves that Nu Gundam is a really solid design. Amuro knocked it out of the park with how he made Nu Gundam. He didn't just slap a bunch of the latest high performance parts together like every other Gundam, Zeon suit, or Sazabi. Nu Gundam is really solid, modular, and can function as a platform for testing other equipment. Even 5 years later it can keep up with latest Gen Gundams with only a few minor upgrades.
>>22587855because instead of whatever size psycommu hardware is usually, now it was downscaled to microscopic level, which means the same space can be occupied by several orders of magnitude more processors and so on. And it's been repeatedly proven psycommu can resonate with itself when channeling pilot's wills so pushing this up to 11 is another level of technology compared to anything else invented at that point.
>>22587859in fairness Sazabi also had an extensive development process, including the lion's share of inventing and perfecting psychoframe
>>22587841all I know is that Luio provided Zoltan's sleeves unit with a Neo Zeong, don't know if the Sinanju Stein comes with it.
>>22587856in modern settings it's typically included in mainline UC as a theoretical "perfected" Nu design that had time to fully complete development AND integrate the new psychoframe properly. In other words, what Nu should have been. So the model number is very appropriate.
>>22587862So it's basically as if the MS in question had thousands upon thousands of systems operating simultaneously?Holy fucking shit, suddenly Amuro trashing everything in his path up to (and including) the Sazabi in what's basically a halg-baked prototype makes a lot of sense.
>>22587875some later materials go as far as to describe psychoframe as OOParts. An archeological term that stands for "out of place artifact", describing finds that seem to be utterly incongruous with the environment. Think coins in areas without any mints or even metallurgy, or the odd mechanical computer ancient Greeks made. Of course in real life and with archeological finds these have explanations like simple trade, but here it's another matter entirely.Just like how Unicorns are considered a technological singularity, psychoframe is an invention far, far ahead of the technological level of the Universal Century and by any reasonable thinking should not have been invented at this point.In other words, it's all Char's fault.
>>22587866>theoretical "perfected" Nu design that had time to fully complete development AND integrate the new psychoframe properlyYes for the first, but no for the second. Hi-Nu was rolled out of the factory without a psycoframe, and was originally not designed with one. In the version of events that Hi-Nu is from (where it is also just named the Nu Gundam) Char intentionally abandons a Psyco Doga, knowing that Londo Bell will recover it and refit the captured psycoframe to the Hi-Nu.
>>22587855>Which reminds me, why was the Psycoframe so powerful compared to other psycommu systems?A better question is wtf is Psycho Shards and why does the story treat them as far more dangerous than Psychoframe? Why is the Neo Zeong such a danger that ghosts need to stop it?
>>22587892In Beltorchika's Children, yes. I'm talking about the MSV way of introducing it to the mainline continuity as a paper plan where it's only a what-if design.
>>22587828According to this, Nu already had psycommu in control system and psycoframe is simply a light improvement to enhance responsiveness. Before Unicorn, Psycoframe was not space magic, just an additional upgrade to the already perfected Psycommu.
>>22587896Everything about the plot is fucking nonsense, as expected to a follow-up of Unicorn
>>22587896Full Frontal has bits of Char's souls grafted to him and is in-universe rumored to some way or another acquired knowledge through that. Knowledge that doesn't belong in this world. Psych Shards spontaneously create crystalline formations of psychoframe circuits in a giant ring, providing more enhancement than even an entire MS's worth of psychoframe.In other words it's a mecha eldritch abomination.
>>22587896So, consider how much of the Psycho Shards are just psycoframe. A cockpit-sized amount in a mobile suit caused the Axis Shock. The Unicorn is a mobile suit's entire frame made out of the thing. What would happen if you made a 100+ meter tall mobile armor's main weapon out of it?
>>22587908>Full Frontal has bits of Char's souls grafted to himFucking stupid.
>>22587900>Before Unicorn, Psycoframe was not space magic,like that time the tiny fragment of it spontaneously manifested a barrier and blocked a beam shot? Not even mentioning Axis Shock itself and everything around it.
>>22587850"Psycho Gundam" is a giant mobile armor, not a mobile suit. Nu was first mobile suit to have it.>Nu's claim to fame was always psycoframe, not psycommu.=>>>22587900 It has psycomu and that's still the best aspect of it. Psycoframe simply improved the responsiveness. Even the movie didn't said Psycoframe was some sort of wacky space magic.
>>22587896its not the Psycoshards that are dangerous, its the psycofield it creates. full psycoframe units like Unicorn, Banshee, Phenex and Narrative can create psycofield to basically reject reality and replace it with their ownhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2J3EjYBYuUpsycoshards make it easier for non-newtypes or weak newtypes like Full Frontal and Zoltan to use psycoframe and create psycofields that warp reality
i swear these mecha lore threads are always just a bunch of people talking at one ignoramus troll that refuses to even read his own sources
>>22587900>Before Unicorn, Psycoframe was not space magicThe Axis Shock was literally the psycoframe facilitating willpower made manifest, or by said phenomenon's common name: magic.(More accurately: sorcery, though. Magic is formalized spells. Sorcery is innate intuit.)
>>22587921Well, the older and less advanced biosensor was also able to manifest barriers..>>22587923Qubeley had the first psycommu on a mobile suit. And don't give me that shit about it being bulky, the giant wing thruster binders and pointy arm and leg armor is purely for looks, not because it's required by the psycommu. Or are you going to talk some kind of shit about how that is a fake and weak psycommu that suddenly doesn't count as a real psycommu anymore?
>>22587921You can argue about how Judau could go super saiyan to beat Haman or Kamile transformed his beam saber into bigger beam saber. New type bullshit, usable on any technologies.
>>22587929Ok Fukui, calm down.
>>22587929>>22587926Unicorn was dumb power creep.Axis Shock as a mysterious miracle caused by the combined wills of everyone present is not the same as a mobile suit become a literal god able to wave his hands and have his will be done.
>>22587931manifest barriers when piloted by Newtypes and typically in extremely tense and emotional situations. When we see the same thing happen without hardware, like the Moon sisters, it is still done by Newtypes and saps their lifepower.Meanwhile Chan didn't even know what happened, didn't feel a thing.
>>22587931>QubeleyNot Gundam
>>22587929begone, anon. Reason and not seething over Unicorn is not allowed here.
>>22587928More like retards saw official data book and manual from Bandai but decided to sniff copium. Nu has psycommu along with psycoframe, simple as that. I swear, Unicorn made up alot of weird shits.
>>22587950>mtllolololololololI'm glad you knew I meant you tho <3
>>22587914>So, consider how much of the Psycho Shards are just psycoframe. A cockpit-sized amount in a mobile suit caused the Axis Shock. The Unicorn is a mobile suit's entire frame made out of the thing. What would happen if you made a 100+ meter tall mobile armor's main weapon out of it?Ok by your own words....if that's the case then so how did Neo Zeong lose to Unicorn Gundam? If Neo Zeong can create giant fields of crystal psycho frame, then Neo Zeong should have easily. It's much more than Unicorn has. Why was Unicorn Gundam ripping apart Neo Zeong like it was tissue paper?
>>22587958because mobile suits aren't everything
>>22587958the quality of the psycofield. in terms of color, Green>Blue>Orange>=<Red>deactivatedUnicorn is now green while Neo Zeong was still orange, just like Banshee at that point. Unicorn has fully awakened to bend reality according to its pilot's will.therefore, at that point Unicorn could still kick Neo Zeong's ass even when it has boat loads more of psycohards
>>22587958Banana's will was stronger than FF's or whatever.This is a terrifying precedent since ideologically brainwashed people tend to have the strongest and most unshakeable wills. I don't even blame Fukui for this, Tomino pulled this bullshit first in Zeta when he had Kamille defeat Scirocco purely on blind anger alone.
>>22587972That's very much so intentional
>>22587967Fucking stupid SSJ bullshit.
>>22587972>Banana's will was stronger than FF's or whatever. How? He's just a kid. Full Frontal is literally a bio-engineered clone grown only to know and believe one thing. FF is the perfect soldier with an unshakeable will and even has fragments of Char's soul attached to him and helping FF. Banana is just...a kid. A very sheltered kid who may have social and developmental issues.
>>22588022...did you watch the show?
>>22588023Struck a little too close to home with Banana having social issues huh? Lol.
>>22588022>why does the protagonist who has hope for humanity win against a literal empty vessel?
>>22588035FF can activate the psychoshards using his will, and even TIME TRAVEL using pure willpower.
>>22588042ok, and?
Banana is barely a character, he's just a shit milquetoast 'protagonist' throwing out shallow platitudes
>>22588069yes, yes and the last good gundam series was in the 90s, when you were born.
>>225880712/10Its all you deserve.
>>22588073>cyber newtype weirdo is after the cute girl>beats her up>captain dude is participating in zeon attack on a city>beats him up>masked cunt is going full doomer>beats him up>all the while going through at least 3 separate mental breakdowns, but also retaining hope for humanityBanagher is the quintessential mecha protag, the very embodiment of the genre's greatest qualities
>>22588023>>22588035>Banana has no backstory. >No characteristics of his own.>His only defining trait is saying "But even so!" and "I love you Audrey">only known for piloting a Gundam>Anon calls Full frontal the empty vessel.Sure anon. Sure.
>>22588143literally the only thing you proved is that you're a speedwatching tard. What next, Kamille is an annoying brat and Amuro deserved to get slapped?
>>22588145Do you have an actual complaint or question? You've avoided saying why he's wrong.
>>22588187 I'm just making fun of him. No sense in having a discussion when I know I'm better than him.
>>22587958Don't get me wront, I agree that Unicorn is inconsistent as all fuck and don't care much for it, but I usually understand psycommu stuff to work like a tunind fork. You hit it really hard against something and it'll make a much bigger noise than if you just flick it. For example, Kamille on the Zeta managed to essentially pull off a Shining Finger Sword before G Gundam even made it a thing, and the Zeta had just a bio-sensor on it. Sure, the Neo Zeong had much more psycoframe on its weapons than the Unicorn and the Nu, but thankfully for everyone in UC, he was still a weak newtype, so he couldn't bring that freak of nature to its fullest potential. And thank fuck no one will ever see its full potential.
>>22588022>Full Frontal is literally a bio-engineered clone grown only to know and believe one thing. FF is the perfect soldier with an unshakeable will and even has fragments of Char's soul attached to him and helping FFFull Frontal is not a clone, he's a dude who was so hollow inside he agreed to become a physically identical replica of a deceased figurehead to further the political agenda of his group's higher-ups. And he didn't even fully commit to becoming Char, because he decided to act in a levelheaded pragmatic way instead of being an incredibly petty, childish, irresponsible and crazed lunatic like the original was.
>>22588229You missed the part where he’s possessed by half of Char’s soul
>>22588233Yes, only half of it.
>>22588193I think it bears to mention that Full Frontal was not itching for a fight at that point. If FF wanted to fight, Banana and Unicorn might have lost.on the other hand, Zoltan was really itching for a fight and you can see how much destruction his control over the psycoshards was, if he was a better newtype or even at the same level of Full Frontal, Phenex will lose
>>22588229He's possessed by Char's soul and literally giving him knowledge about technology from Newtype heaven that's beyond anything humans have ever dreamed off.
>>22588241>He's possessed by Char's soul and literally giving him knowledge about technology from Newtype heaven that's beyond anything humans have ever dreamed off.Fucking retarded.It goes from Lalah having spooky ghost communications which was focused on the idea of humanity being able to communicate on a spiritual/higher level, to newtype ghosts giving you hookups for superpowered bullshit because all the writers care about is powerlevel escalation.
>>22588242You're fucking retarded, yes.
>>22583032INCORRECT
>>22588316That's just a Döven Wolf with two eyes
>>22588329How about this?
>>22588359god I love Mk-IV so fucking much
>>22588329 (Me)>>22588359Okay, I'll concede. The Mk IV looks really fucking sick
>>22585755The OVA was the version that went full retard power level shit with the crystal Unicorn and Neo Zeong.
>>22587607>basically, Delta Plus is the current last product of Zeta line and its still surpassed Zeta's raw specs and Sazabi quite mogs it in output and thrustThe last of the Delta/Zeta line is the Delta Kai and outside of lacking a psychoframe it's definitely at least on par with the Sazabi.
>>22587899I think this entire conversation perfectly encapsulates why I hate people getting too hung up on side materials and later retcons.
>>22590431???
>>22582993pic unrelated, newfag
>>22590475Not saying someone's wrong because of it, just what a web of bullshit we end up with from 40 years of people trying to fix other people's shit, and retconning their own stuff around it and all that.
>>22590484That's the fun part though. Just accept things might not always fit in perfectly and make up your own explanations as to why.
>people think psycommu jumped the shark in Unicornlol
>>22585717>fukui fanslopWho gives a fuck
>>22590507Why did you post an Evangelion?
>>22585818To sell plastic, hence all the grunt fights between MSVs throughout the OVAs.
>>22590624Fuck you
>>22590507>posts some random fucking shit nobody cares aboutgreat argument faggot
>>22590725Why so mad?
>>22590624>>22590751>>22590764ignorant trash
>>22590768No really, why are you suddenly absoluitly seething after a few light comments?
>>22590707>To sell plastic, hence all the grunt fights between MSVs throughout the OVAs.Then why did they screw up the Shambloo Mobile Armor battle? It was completely changed from the book. It was supposed have even more Zeon grunts VS Federation grunts.
unicorn seethers are worse than /u/ tourists
>>22583901>theres no reasons gundam should be end all be allThats... not what anon was saying
>>22583886>>22583135Calibarn is just a prototype MS,, it is infact supposed to be worse off than Aerial because it's literally the suit that lost in the competition to the original Lfrith, only thing special about it is that when they built it they didn't give a fuck about safety
>>22586494>deletednu-4chan
>>22591166Yet the mods would rather zoomer shitposting stay up for weeks straight. Really makes you wonder.
>>22591166based
>>22590045Sazabi is still 30000kg of thrust faster and 6000m longer range than the Delta Kai.
>>22591606The Sazabi is also a fat fuck with a ton of thrusters so that's to be expected, the specs are still higher than the Nu which absolutely crushed the Sazabi.
>>22585621The ZZ's hi-mega cannon is 50MW and the S Gundam's beam smart gun is also 50MW.
>>22590507Who painted sperms all over it?
>>22591695That has absolutly nothing to do with the post you replied to.
>>22591700Isn’t it obvious?
>>22583692Pretty sure the reason for the ZZ Transformation was to save on propellant fuel.
>>22583703It was just AGE-3 High Mobility Space Type
>>22583700>simple blunt impact
>>22584583You're not even worth The Undefeated of The East's time.
>>22583140As opposed to all of Kira's Freedom Gundam variants. Only telling them apart by the backpacks is shit design.
>>22587364Was it the real Char?
>>22591166It's honestly pathetic yeah. Just remember they do it for free.
