>German engineer's face when putting the timing chain at the back of the engine for no reason at all
>>27585018The reason is to charge engine out time.
>>27585018When will poorfags learn?Cars are only any good when they are new.Older than 5 years MAX equals junk
>for no reason at allengineerlet
Timing CHAIN will outlive an engine
>>27585024post toolbox, won't happen. Fuck automatics btw.
>>27585024I'm happy to learn the "engineering" behind the decision anon>>27585025Nice timing chain you have there.... it'd be a real shame if it stretched...
>>27585035wrenchlet>>27585044packaging, since the engines need to be 100% in front of the axles and have zero space to spare in the front but plenty in the rear
>>27585044timing chain in the back of the engine makes the engine package shorter so it can fit in more places
>>27585067>>27585070>a timing chain at the front of the motor adds length to the motor>but a timing chain at the back of the motor doesn't add length to the motor
>>27585086dude never touched a screwdriver in his life
>>27585089>it just does bro trust me bro>STOVES bro
>>27585044If it stretch, you shouldn't change it. The new chain is too short and will break.Never change timing chains.
>>27585103>If it stretchstopped reading right there, anyone else know this feel?
>>27585105A guy replaced his BMW's perfect timing chain. Come the next week, the new chain broke. Don't be this guy, even if you are a native englishman.
>>27585103>*bends your valves*Heh... nothing personnel, kid.
>>27585086here you go
>>27585112You can bet more to a chain that has naturally elonged during the years, than a complete new chain. Would you want your spine replaced?
>>27585115Ah yes, of course - the timing chain and the flywheel occupy the same space.Why didn't I think of this obvious explanation?
>>27585116When the chain stretches it puts off the valve timing retard.Yes I would love a new spine of the proper length when I get old and my spine shrinks 2 inches.
>>27585117because you are not an engineer and your iq is too low to think in 3d
>>27585121>because you are not an engineer and your iq is too low to think in 3dpost a timing chain occupying the same plane as a flywheel.
>>27585122no
>>27585128>it was real in my mind
>>27585115more like this, little wrenchlet
>>27585131>spelling the shit out for ricers>not just ridiculing thenyoure doing it all wrong
>>27585115this board is so funny
>>27585115Dumbasss
>>27585120The valve timing will be completly off when the new chain snaps. The valves will hit the pistons. But be my guess, it's a day's work and fingers crossed for a week or two.
>>27585158It is a common problem for GM V6s to stretch their timing chain and bend valves.
>>27585086the relevant part is the cylinder heads which need to house thick variable timing adjusters on the cam sprockets. with the chain in the back these can effectively hang over the transmission bellhousing freeing up ~2-3 inches in the front of the motor. the engine would not fit if these were in the front.>>27585089wrenchlet
>>27585246>wrenchletman shut the fuck up you dumbass ricer. post a timing chain and flywheel on the same plane. post a single wrench. wont happen. N
>>27585251here, hopefully this picture will help clear things up for you
>>27585246That might make sense on an Audi with plenty of room above the transmission due to an engine-forward AWD system, but German's be doing that shit to FR BMWs now too. For a traditional FR layout there is less clearance behind the head than in front of it.
>>27585268bro you have never touched a wrench in your life and you are retarded as fuck. stick to discussing LED interior mood lighting and carbon fiber trim.
dumb fucking troon doesnt even understand what a plane is lamo. so fucking stupid
>>27585273can't speak to the BMWs, all the BMW engines i've worked on and owned have had the chains in the front>>27585274wrenchlet
>>27585280>can't speak to the BMWsyou cant "speak to" shit retard
>design drive system for oil pump in the back of the engine >It's a wet belt
>>27585268Those VVT pulleys don't seem to extend any further than the second chain.The space required to run the two chains would be the same on the front of the engine as it is on the back.
>>27585290they stick out past the rear of the flywheel
>>27585292Oh I see they've double stacked the cam chains too so they're actually in line with the forward oil pump chain and therefore the pulleys stick out further.A complex solution to a complex problem if you ask me.
>>27585307>A complex solution to a complex problemabsolutely. that is german engineering for you
>>27585044Audi's AWD system puts the engine ahead of the front axle, so any centimeter saved on engine length helps. Putting the chain setup at the back and making it drive the balance shaft, oil pump, water pump and AC compressor let them package things very tightly. The only accessory on the front of the engine is the alternator.Another benefit is the crank being put under less twisting force, as all the load is at one side (as opposed to the gearbox pulling on one side and the timing and accessories loading down the other), which contributes to the RS4/RS5/R8 version of the V8 revving all the way to 8500 despite being a very undersquare design.
>>27585318Once again it does not make the engine any shorter, if anything it pushes the main bulk and weight of the engine further forward.
>>27585324It all but eliminated the front accessory drive and put the cam phasers above the bellhousing, if you compare the chain-driven Audi V8s to their belt-driven predecessors the belt-driven ones are about 50mm longer.
>>27585025>Timing CHAIN will outlive an engineTell that to VW. The 1.4 TSI I4 they put in some of their smaller cars is infamous for the tensioners going bad and the chain getting ruined after it loosens a bit (along with the engine burning and/or leaking a bottle of oil a month).At least you can usually hear chain issues happening, unlike the ecoboom wet belt that just destroys the engine---either very quickly or very quietly.I think the 1.5 TSI I4 that replaced it just used a dry belt, which is a perfectly adequate solution for a cheap shitbox engine.
>guy at work has one of those 4 banger Colorado diesels>timing belt back of the engine>acts like it is more capable than a 3/4ton>trash talks my old dodges all dayIs there a way where I can reach out through the astral plane and make the belt break sooner or will I have to sacrifice a small child. I really want to laugh at him when it breaks because he hasn't even deleted the belt even though we don't have inspections
>>27585386*deleted the truck
>>27585022My car is 45Is NOT junk
>>27585335so lets make the chain system super hard to work on in the back of the engine so we dont have to have a 2 inch cutout on the radiator support... such a big brain move, or better yet, lets make it an engine out procedure.
>>27585162>GMManufacturer issue. Does not happen with Ford
>>27587382Tell that to the 4.0 SOHC
>>27585251>>27585246>>27585268>>27585274calling people wrenchlets is insane to me because it tells me there's people who genuinely like to work on cars for fun and not because they have to like some sort of mechanic larper or wrenching enthusiast weirdo. I'm not gonna sit and pretend I love working on cars, shit sucks but I'm not paying a mechanic $200 a hour to do a worse job than I'm capable of doing most of the timeit's a bad design end of story not helped by the chain guides self destructing and the engine having nasty oil consumption problems, it's obviously not DIY friendly but fine if you work at a Audi dealer and can drop a powertrain using your lift in a day>>27585345Honestly idk how VW can still not make a good timing chain. Iirc even the Mk7-7.5 2.0Ts have chain tensioner issues at higher miles. Ford is another one guilty of that, 4.0 Cologne V6, 5.4 3vs, and now the 3.5 Ecoboosts and 5.0 Coyotes. It's like BMW not mastering the water pump after 35 years.
>>27587397I don't always enjoy working on cars, sometimes it sucks, but a lot of the time I do.But it helps to choose a good make and model of car that's designed to be easy and sensible to work on.*cough* OLD TOYOTAS *cough*
>>27585285While anon is defending engineering decisions please explain why wet belts exist.
>>27585018I sure hope these engines don't use plastic chain guides.
>>27585268https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NPBIwQyPWE
>>27585018>putting the timing chain at the back of the engineI want there to be a recall on something to do with the timing chain so the dealerships are fuck by hundreds of to thousands of engine out jobs.>>27585086>>27585115>>27585131I saving a 3 inches is so fucking important.
>>27587428personally i fucking hate it and would skip it 8/10 times but i also dislike getting jewed by shopsnothing better than covered in grease/oil, rolling around on concrete, ruining nice clothes, scraping the fuck out of my arms/knuckles, having to plank on top of my engine to reach the back until my abs are sore, dealing with rusted/stuck bolts, getting shit in your eyes/hair and having to shower with dawn dish soap body scrub, etc. the way people on /o/ throw wrenchlet around makes me think they dont actually work on cars, it sucks half the time and the older i get the less i look forward to doing it. often when i get shit done i have to take the next few days to relax
>>27587428>OLD TOYOTASyeeaaap>sips monsteralthough mind you, pic related is now wrecked :(engine and gearbox still good though. next weekend im gonna pull it out and put it into an intact one i got
>>27587492the engine bay is meant for 4cyl turbos and v6s so yeah, same reason the b5 s4 was a shitty cartiny engine bay and big motor
>>27587391>The SOHC version was introduced in 1997 in the Ford Explorer, alongside the original pushrod version. It features a variable length intake manifold and produces 210 hp (157 kW; 213 PS) and 254 lb⋅ft (344 N⋅m)f. (The variable length intake manifold was discontinued in 1998, replaced by a standard intake.) It uses a jackshaft in place of a camshaft to drive a timing chain to each cylinder head. Three timing chains are used, one from the crank to the jackshaft, one in the front of the engine to drive the cam for the left bank, and one on the back of the engine to drive the cam for the right bank. In addition, the 4WD Ranger with the SOHC 4.0 had a 4th timing chain driving what Ford called a balance shaft. Ford has since phased out the engine in favor of the more powerful and efficient Duratec 37.[5]what. nvm, just buy duratec/duratorq/powerstroke
>>27585335>>27585268>>27585335Harmonic balancer sticks out just as much as those cam lumps would have. Could have taken the 1inch of chains and chain drives off the back and kept it on the front since itd shift everything back 1 inch
>>27585115
>>27587531Have you given up on the yank tank?Or are you swapping that stuff over with the hope of selling it for a higher price?
>>27585018>No reasonIt's money. Everything about a car's engineering has a reason.
Meanwhile British engineers be like
>>27587382>*explodes in 1.0 Ecoboost*
>>27587647what the fuck is this?
>>27585115There are some real busriders in this thread.
>>27587685Uses a timing belt... that explodes.
>>27587782iirc thats the grandiose britannica way of making a V6>grab a V8 blok, and only bore/ reem out 6 cilindersbut Im as new here as you, so if anyone knows more, feel free to correct me
>>27587782To make a V6, they grabbed a V8 block and filled out 2 cylinders, instead of cutting them off like Alfa or GM
>>27585018>French engineer's face putting timing belt in oil and sac for dpf fluid
german engineers when they used an air-cooled 6 cylinder engine to win le mans 7 times in a row in the 1980s against water-cooled twin-turbo V8s and 7 litre V12s:
>>27585318>Another benefit is the crank being put under less twisting force, as all the load is at one side (as opposed to the gearbox pulling on one side and the timing and accessories loading down the other), which contributes to the RS4/RS5/R8 version of the V8 revving all the way to 8500 despite being a very undersquare design.You can rev a 7.0l LS to 8500 if you just change the valve springs. Nigger.
>>27587782The tooling costs-saving way to make a V6.
>>27585318>revving all the way to 8500 despite being a very undersquare designDo wrenchlet nongineers really still believe the over/under square cylinder shit affects the rev range? There is no correlation between torque, RPM range, and stroke/bore ratio. Oversquare engines can offer a larger valve area relative to their displacement, so a "highly specced" one can rev higher and faster than a comparable undersquare engine because it's got bigger valves, more flow. The biggest advantage of an undersquare engine is packaging, making a smaller engine, which is why they're expected of engines designed specifically for front-wheel-drive applications.
>>27588475What did you expect from a euronigger who unironically defends shut like >>27585268Clearly the only tool that fag has ever held is his boyfriend's
>>27588497wow that post has still got you shook a day later huh
>>27585025No the fuck it won't wrenchlette.Hondas BARELY get by the 2-300k km mark at which point it's likely burning oil/rest of the car is rusted out
>teenage boys spend hours online and in person trying to compete stats with different dream cars>engineers get bored and need performance car projects to not quit>as a result, highly specialized engine designs begin to come out to maximize power, handling, etc.>everyone complains that their performance-based German engineering car isn't as simple to put back together as a Honda Civic, must have done it on purpose out of spiteI'm pretty sure most Corvettes and the Supras are gonna be much harder to work on and with specialized decisions made in the engine bay than your average Camry, too.
>>27588630It's also due to emissions and fuel economy around the world including Japan and even China which is why every car company is doing stuff like direct injection, gasoline particulate filters, small displacement turbos, 10 speed autos, and 3 cylinders.
>>27588653Direct injection actually makes more power
>>27585044Unironically packaging. Audi did it because cam adjusters are wide (figure 2-3 inches for the gear and actuator) and the space above the transmission is free. BMW does it now because pedestrian impact requirements means that extra inch or two up front is a hard point that can hurt heckin pedestrianinos.Im an audi fag so I can list the following examples:2.5 inline 5 - already a long engine designed for fwd. It even has a twin belt setup to save space similar to later volvo 5 cylsVr6 - also fwd and almost a fucking inline 6, space concerns4.2 and later V engines - audi puts the motor so far forward because the front diff is integrated into the transmission, there is NO room up front in a b6/b7 s4.Youll notice the 1.8/2.0 tsi has the chain upfront because that fuckers short
>>27589020Yes but it also makes cars more difficult to own long term with carbonization issues, fuel dilution, expensive spares that can be difficult to service (seized injectors that can fail and flood cylinders, expensive high pressure pumps that leave you stranded when they fail), and wear on the valvetrain from the pump (cams, VW was known for this on the FSI motors + Mazda on the 2.3 DISIs)Toyota is the only brand to get it right with D4S where they combine port and direct injection to avoid the first issue.
>>27589083See >>27585324 and >>27587628There is NO REASON those chains NEED to be on the back of the engine
>>27589105Take your meds.
>>27589083>chain upfront because that fuckers shortDont the more recent V6 also have the chains at the back? Whats up with that?
>>27589211NTA but after reading your autism I can assure you that YOU need meds if you think German slop is good. There is NO reason for the Krauts to put all of their shit in the worst place imaginable. Cool you saved 3 pubes worth of room for a tiny talking point to boast with as your wallet bleeds the second any regular maintenence is needed. >Audi dog ass S4 thermostat location is a act against God and all things wrenches.>So many fucking wrenchlets in this thread it hurts and none will post their ride, their toolbox, or their hands.
>>27589249Please don't project your autism onto me.
>>27589232Shared engineering, all those Audi V engines are part of the same family, V6, V8 and V10. Same bank angle, same bore spacing, share a lot of the same parts.
>>27587382Nothing happens with ford because those turds can't even start.
>>27589274>Shared engineering,Aka laziness
>>27589249If you want a boring car that's reliable and easy to fix, buy a Honda Civic. That's what they're made for, and they're excellent commuter cars. Cars that have more bells and whistles than just "gets me to work, has air-conditioning and radio" are going to cost more and generally be more complex, and cost more as a result.
>>27589263That's a self report if I've ever seen one lmao! God speed wrenchlet. You're gonna have a hard life haha.
>>27589282Theres a plethora of exciting cars that are actually well designed to be pro-technician.No I'm not going to list all of them. But hey you can continue riding in your cuckmobile and be the paypig mama always wanted you to be by hanging your slop over to a real wrench or stealership
>>27589290Okay list some of them then.
>>27585318>>27585335>defending g*rman sloppost toolbox, you won't
>>27588366bruz you can't even rev an LS to the stock limiter without bending rods, munching lifters and slipping the crank angle cog.
>>27585345I had a 2010 Jetta 2.0tsi that had the same issue. Scrapped that bitch for $500. Newest car I ever had and it was the worst car I’ve ever owned.
>>27589284Weirdo.
>>27587646>>27585020Some board room somewhere:>We're losing too much money on people keeping their cars too long or buying more than lightly used and still enjoying it. Does anyone have ideas to get these things off the road sooner after the warranty expires?>Some engineering manager whose soul was ground to dust by decades at VW pens this
>>27588630>we put the timing chain at the back of the engine because THIS IS A HIGHLY SPECIALISED ENGINE WHICH MAXIMISES POWER AND HANDLING Yes tell me all about how the timing chain maximises power and handling
>>27589308This makes no sense, vws have always been GAY as FUCK unreliable shitheaps
>>27589313dont bother trying to enlighten terminal wrenchlettes, that way madness lies
>>27589282>umm akshually designing my car like dogshit is what makes it excitingCOPE
I'm not really going to argue with someone who won't post evidence to back his claims and I know 90% of this board has never paid more than $5,000 for a car but the whole "why is it so hard to get to????" arguments I see are most of the time from illegal alien mechanics who are mad at the idea of having to invest more time and money to fix something more complex than a Honda Civic.
>>27589083Who the fuck briefed you audi fags with this "muh cam phasers" cope? Did you all watch it on a popular youtube video or something? How come you're all saying the same thing?A cam phaser can overhang the harmonic damper and accessories belt at the front the same way it overhangs the transmission at the rear, the overall engine length is not changed.
>>27589329FOR NOREASON AT ALL
>>27589329Post ride, toolbox, or hand, wrenchletYou won't
>>27589338Post a car you own that was built within the last decade.
>>27589352>the guy who's defending rear timing chains is an NPC who thinks cars older than 10 years are bad
>>27589313Overall shorter engine -> better weight distribution + better aerodynamics because the front of the hood can be lower
>>27589380The engine doesn't magically become shorter because you moved the timing chain to the rear retard.If anything it makes weight distribution worse because instead of having the heavy block of the engine at the back and the mostly empty and light timing cases at the front, you have the light timing cases at the back and the whole block has to be shifted forwards.
>>27587640the yank tank is on its way to me. getting my neighbour to drive it here, i can definitely trust him with itfound a company that can drop off and pick up an engine crane for rent, and they have a deal going on where if i hire it over the weekend, i only pay for one day.getting a mate to pull out the front end of the wreck, gonna hold onto it as a backup while i decide what im going to do with the old dodgeworst comes to worst if i dont like the tank i'll just drive it for a bit then sell it, already see someone in sydney who's been looking for one for a while now.
>>27587528Yeah, working on cars sucks. Between my last three cars I’ve spent a non-negligible amount of time under cars, cursing, bashing my knuckles, breaking something that turns my 2-hour fix into a weekend-long ordeal. It’s not fun. I imagine building a project is pretty fun, but maintenance or fixing broken shit really isn’t. Now that I have a decent paying career I can afford to just have some mechanic get his hand dirty while I go home and relax. It’s honestly a good feeling after being on the other side for years.
>>27590097as with pretty much everything in life, too little not good, too much also not good. one day i said fuck it and just got a shop to do replace the brake master cylinder for me because at the time i really could not be bothered fucking around with brake fluid, bench bleeding the cylinder and worrying about the painthaving a wrenching buddy that you can goof around with really does change a lot of this though.
>>27588630Fuck off wrenchlette, literally half the car opens up on a Corvette they couldn't be any more easier and accessible than any comparable sports car
>>27591951Ok so drop the transmission or do the harmonic balancer on one mechanic enthusiast
>Removing clutch cover on my fancy V4 honda10 minutes>Removing clutch cover on single cylinder BMWway fucking longer and you have to drain all the fluids and unbolt everything else on the engine to get the cover off
>>27589290Still waiting
Clearly the solution is to get rid of timing chain altogether and invest in freevalve
