An all knowing, all loving, all powerful God created a universe where his love is so powerful that he damns you to hell if you don't believe him and he wants a personal relationship with me yet he appears totally hidden and basically everything can be explained without him and he made the universe knowing he was going to damn 6 gorillion people to hell but apparently that's his perfect justice even though he makes all the rules and our souls and in heaven nobody can reject him so clearly free will isn't that imporatant but we probably don't have free will anyway since he made the universe knowiing all outcomes and he also really really really loved the smell of burning flesh and demanded animal sacrifices even though he's an all powerful god so why would he give a fuck and he's so loving that he said slaughter a bunch of babies and infants but that's okay because they went to heaven but abortion is still bad but also he flooded the world killing everybody because he messed up even though he's an all powerful all knowing god so he knew he was going to mess up just like he knew eve would eat the fruit but then he punushed women with painful child birth even though his plan knew she would eat the fruit...And THIS is what Christian Nationalists want to base the entire country on? Really?
>>516986811God is Satan in disguise. Earth is Hell. Enjoy your stay.
>>516986811What if monotheism is just human cope for my god beats up your god?
>>516986811Rent Free
>>516986930I remember &T, good times from the old internet
>>516986811kill christcucks, behead christcucks, roundhouse kick christcucks into the concrete, slam dunk a christcuck baby into the trash can, crucify filthy christcucks, defecate into christcucks’ food, launch christcucks into the sun, stir fry christcucks in a wok, toss christcucks into active volcanoes, urinate into christcuck’s gas tank, Judo throw christcucks into a wood chipper, twist christcucks’ heads off, report christcucks to the IRS, karate chop christcucks in half, curb stomp pregnant christcucks, trap christcucks in quicksand, Crush christcucks in the trash compactor, liquify christcucks in a vat of acid, eat christcucks, dissect christcucks, stomp christcuck skulls with steel-toed boots, cremate christcucks in the oven, lobotomize christcucks, mandatory abortions for christcucks, grind christcuck fetuses in the garbage disposal, drown christcucks in fried chicken grease, vaporize christcucks with a raygun, kick old christcucks down the stairs, feed christcucks to alligators, slice christcucks with a katana
God lives vicariously through you and sent Jesus to redeem himself.
>>516986811I don't see a single period in that entire paragraph. You should have some self awareness and realize actually you might be a retard.
Freewill blows this nigger the fuck out of the water
>>516987543>Freewill blows this nigger the fuck out of the waterHow? It's literally accounted for
>>516986811congratulations you passed occult 101, if god is omniscient he knew satan would "betray him" aka he planned it and everything I can't be arsed to carry on typing religion is nonsense.
>>516986811The jewish god "Yahweh" is a demonic force that pretends to be God
>>516986811Flawed premise. God did in fact, give us a world without evil, and it was called Eden. We were effectively pets. There was no knowledge of morality, of pain, of science. There was endless food, perfect health, and no responsibility.Then a pissed off intern decided to fuck with the big boss's favorite pets, and elevated them into sentient beings by tempting them with 'the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil'.When the boss came back to find that his pets were aware of moral weight, he knew it would be cruel to keep them locked away forever. As such, he sent them (us) out into the broader world to suffer, to triumph, to despair, and to rejoice. Just like a parent watching their kid put their hand on the stove, the big man has left it up to us to unfuck things (until he gets bored and alters the very fabric of reality with the end times).
>>516986811Yes god is not good or loving he’s also not bad or hateful.He’s subhuman, that’s literally what Christianity answers and no Jesus is not all powerful.Are we done?
>>516986811Kek this flowchart keeps getting gayer as you fags try to cope with free will
>>516987698>God values love and freewill >Sees love ultimately being stemmed from freewill Btfo
>>516986811God doesn't damn you to hell he just sets rules, you damn yourself to hell when you break them.
>>516988799>Then a pissed off intern decided to fuck with the big boss's favorite petsGod made the universe knowing that would happen. It was part of his plan. God literallty wanted that to happen kek >>516988867>Free will exists How? Is there anything you can do now to change the outcome of the universe that God has known before you existed?>>516988875>Sees love ultimately being stemmed from freewillSo God doesn't love us in heaven anymore?
Proof the Bible is the word of God: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l5ZEsXjNVI1 Cor. 15:3-4: “For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VRT2FFXntcRomans 3:23: “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;”Jesus Christ is God who has come to earth from heaven in the flesh. He died as a sinless sacrifice for the sins of the whole world to save you from eternal hell, the punishment for your sin. He was buried, then resurrected and is now in heaven. John 3:16: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Romans 10:9: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. John 10:28: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."God wants to forgive you, but you have a choice: Either choose this evil world and be punished along with it, or choose to submit to the will of God and be saved. Your own deeds, no matter how good you think they are, can NEVER justify you. You're corrupt and need to be saved. Romans 5:9: “Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ, in what HE did for you. Only He can wash away all of your sins with His blood. Salvation is a gift, it can't be earned. Do you choose the righteousness of God or your righteousness? Heaven or hell?Eph. 2:8-9: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbPchtYsXNohttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yS78mFJcvhQ
>>516989387>So God doesn't love us in heaven anymore?Yeah, problem?
>>516989452I mean yeah he does.
>>516989452Then he's not all loving
>>516989387>How? Is there anything you can do now to change the outcome of the universe that God has known before you existed?Endless easy answerable questions everytime this debate is brought up. Free will is naturally understood by everyone to be within the bounds of our being and limitations. Retarded poster
>>516989540My God isn't a whore. God loves only me.
>>516986811People are better if left to contend with evil themselves. You forget the human product at the end is better if God leaves you your will. The removal of pain is not the end all be all.
>>516989540When you sin you become a child of Satan, God offers forgiveness for such sin that you might be adopted into Christ's family. Jesus literally died so that you might be saved. There is no greater love than that. The problem is not that God doesn't love them, it's that they rejected that love.
>>516989540Why? There is no logical point whatsoever in your statement
>>516989623>Free will is naturally understood by everyone to be within the bounds of our being and limitationsThat's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking you how you have free will if before the universe God knew what you were going to do and there's nothing you can do to change that reality
>>516989695I'm talking about in Heaven.>>516989696Correct. It's only logical when responding to yout statement>God values love and freewill>Sees love ultimately being stemmed from freewillIf free well = love then when we go to heaven we either lose free will (No love) or God is able to give us free will with a total absence of evil somehow so why didn't he just do that in the first place lmfao
>>516989739There's nothing I can do to change God's foreknowledge, yes. Do have any arguments or do just ask pointless questions?
>>516989266Only if you agree to his satanic "Covenants." Then he can legally damn you because you agreed to it. This is how Satan/Yahweh enslaved the Israelites and forced them to worship his corruption
>>516989840>or God is able to give us free will with a total absence of evil somehow so why didn't he just do that in the first place lmfaoGod made man originally with the ability to not sin if he chose. It's not going to be any different in the new world. Looks like you not only dont have the ability but also have no idea about the religion you are talking about
>>516989842>There's nothing I can do to change God's foreknowledgeNo there's nothing you can do to change outcomes God created the universe and when he created it he did so knowing all outcomes according to his plan. Eve had to eat the apple, Satan had to fuck with Job, you had to read my post. Free will is impossible if an all knowing God creates the universe. But if you want to try to hand wave that away, that's fine. But surely an all powerful god could create a universe with free will and no evil and suffering.
>be Epicurus>teach about Gods who are perfect and therefore don't get involved in human affairs (essentially an ancient form of Deism)>centuries later some christcuck falsely attributes some gay fedora shit to your name>others also accuse you of being a sex-obsessed hedonist despite promoting asceticism and celibacy>said christcucks then proceed to burn all of your workspoor guy
>>516989990>God made man originally with the ability to not sin if he choseSo in heaven can people chose to sin or not? The Bible says there's no sin in heaven. So do they still have free will?
>>516990047Knowledge does not equal fatalism. Nobody believes that. Demonstrate why you believe foreknowledge necessitates fatalism? Christianity believes God intervenes in time.
>>516990095>The Bible says there's no sin in heavenWhere does it say that? I believe this but am curious as to what you are referring to. The Bible speaks more about the new earth but there is no details on how the new earth will remain pure. What's your reasoning here?
>has no clue what God's infinite and eternal love is>proceeds to define God's love by goy slop logiccool story, jew-slave atheist
>>516990167>Knowledge does not equal fatalismGod doesn't just have knowledge you retard he made the entire system. If I have total perfect knowledge of the future and somebody shows me two automatrons talking and I can predict what they say then sure I'm not affecting their free will. But if I design the automatrons and the system that surrounds them and design every factor in the universe then yes obviously they can't possibly have free will.Foreknowledge alone is not enough but foreknowledge plus being the guy making literally everything in the world and knowing how everything influences everything means no free will and no randomness. >Christianity believes God intervenes in timeKEK he literally made the universe and is everywhere WTF do you mean in time he's apparently always the unmoved mover
>>516990306>Where does it say thatThe Bible doesn't straight up say "No sin" but it would kind of defeat the whole purpose of Jesus' sacrifice if people were raping each other and being faggots in heaven. That's why there's a a new incorruptible body you go to heaven in according to Paul. if there was sin in heaven then Jesus' death didn't pay the price and all those heavinly sinners should go to hell >>516990444>I love you so much I'm going to torture you forever in a huge fire pit
>>516990518>then sure I'm not affecting their free will. But if I design the automatrons and the system that surrounds them and design every factor in the universe then yes obviously they can't possibly have free will.You unfortunately are confusing freedom of all ability and with freedom within ability. Again when we speak of freewill we speak within the confines of our ability and who we are. We have freewill the confines of human ability just as an animal has some freewill within the confines of being a bird or a pig or whatever. You're making the mistake that freedom of will is freedom of absolute ability which nobody understands it to be. The fact that we are mortal and that sin brings death only proves the point that God creates the system and that freedom of will necessitates consequences. >Christianity believes God intervenes in time>KEK he literally made the universe and is everywhere WTF do you mean in time he's apparently always the unmoved moverNot even sure what argument you are trying to make here but Im talking about Christianity and how it sees the world not aquinas
>>516990850>according to Paul.>if there was sin in heaven then Jesus' death didn't pay the price and all those heavinly sinners should go to hellYou dont have robust view on Christian after life nor do you on what Christ did on the Cross. What Christ did was defeat death for everyman, that is sin. The elect, that is those who chose righteousness will be raised to a body no longer having the sickness of the propensity to sin. And since these are the elect, those who chose God and righteousness they will not choose sin in the next life. So that argument is done with. Anything else?
>>516991018>We have freewill the confines of human abilityHow? God made the entire universe knowing how you would react to every sitaution>B... But I'm still reactingBut God designed your soul/brain chemistry/etc. so no there's nothing special about you reacting you're just a cog in his cosmic machine >You're making the mistake that freedom of will is freedom of absolute ability I'm not saying free will is when you can choose to lift a 6 gorillion pound rock. I"m saying you've never made a free decision in your life. >The fact that we are mortal and that sin brings death only proves the point that God creates the system and that freedom of will necessitates consequences.Except it doesn't because theres a ton of verses saying God already knows who he's going to damn so I guess he made them anyway so they can test out their free will even though he made the universe that necessitates their damnation before they even existed. That's why only Calvinism is honest about free will and maybe some other sects I'm not aware of. >Not even sure what argument you are trying to make here but Im talking about Christianity and how it sees the world not aquinasGod made the universe and is everywhere. He doesn't intervene in time. Everything that exists and happens is his intervention since he made it all
>>516991200You literally said what I stated in a longer more drawn out way...But anyway we seem to agree that sin doesn't exist in heaven. So if free will is an expression of love as you claimed earlier then clearly free will must be able to exist without sin... so why is there any sin in the first place. Why damn anybody? OR there's no free will in heaven in which case, according to you, god is not all loving because as you said>God values love and freewill>Sees love ultimately being stemmed from freewill
>>516989266>sets rules>sets punishment >sets people with not only a capacity to break rules but an inclination to as well>does all of this knowing full well what will happen>still wants to be loved and worshipped the battered bride of christ
>>516986811Counterpoint, god sealed part of his divinity in a subconscious known as free will.
>>516991345This whole post, again, is the idea that foreknoweldge must necessitate fatalism or that we are only instinctual beings. You must set out to prove why you believe this because you are in the vast minority of mankind and human history on this. When someone commits a crime we all immediately conclude that someone committed this crime of their own volition and they had the freedom to do so. Then comes consequence. Consequence because they chose to do this. You are hung up on the idea that free will can only exist if you are God and can create from nothing your the materalizaion of all thoughts. On this point you are recognizing not that freewill exist but that ultimate free will is God's. We are made in His image and as other like attributes of His we have a limiting version (reasoning, knowledge, free will, etc)
>>516986811>An all knowing, all loving, all powerful God created a universe where his love is so powerful that he damns you to hell if you don't believe himIn the end God's love will permeate all creation. God's love is bliss to those who have been reconciled with him, an anguish to those who hate God.>he wants a personal relationship with me yet he appears totally hiddenGod wants us to seek him voluntarily instead of us being coerced to bowing down to him due to the immense pressure of his concrete presence.>and basically everything can be explained without himWhy does something exist at all?> and he made the universe knowing he was going to damn 6 gorillion people to hellWe cannot begin to fathom the epistemological realities of God's thought processes.>in heaven nobody can reject himWe cannot know such thing.>we probably don't have free will anyway since he made the universe knowiing all outcomesNon-sequitur.>he also really really really loved the smell of burning flesh and demanded animal sacrifices even though he's an all powerful godIt's not about the flesh, but our atonement that is pleasing to God, to which the flesh is just a vehicle.>he's so loving that he said slaughter a bunch of babies and infantsWe don't know the full moral context of said situation. but that's okay because they went to heaven >but abortion is still badYes, because you'd be playing God.>but also he flooded the world killing everybody because he messed up even though he's an all powerful all knowing god so he knew he was going to mess upOnce again, we cannot know the realities God was faced up with. You're repeatedly over-anthropomorphizing the cognition of a transcendental being by projecting your own sensibilities onto it.
>>516991544Unfortunately you are bringing up something i dont believe. You believe that if something is possible (sin in the new world) no matter how small the chance is most happen. I disagree and the onest is on you to prove why you believe this?
>>516991981*must
>>516991855>When someone commits a crime we all immediately conclude that someone committed this crime of their own volitionWhat do you mean by "of their own volition" You need to prove to me free will exists, other wise I'm not convinced it does. I don't think it can be proven. If you're an atheist then it clearly doesn't exist. If you're a theist you can think of frameworks where it exists but certainly it makes no logical sense to have an all powerful all knowing god create you and everything around you knowing how you will react and knowing this before you were formed and knowing if you'll be damned.>On this point you are recognizing not that freewill exist but that ultimate free will is God's.Yeah in Christianity only God can have free will nothing else makes any logical sense>We are made in His image and as other like attributes of His we have a limiting version (reasoning, knowledge, free will, etc)Nowhere does it say that in the Bible. All it says is we were made in his (technically "our") likeness. It doesn't say exactly what that entails
>>516986811God simply has a good purpose in allowing evil to exist temporarily. Read Romans 8&9.
>>516986811yes, christians are retarded. every non-moron knows this. the average person is too stupid for democracy to be successful.
>>516989540Why should he? God is righteous, he punishes sinners
>>516986811Yrs that’s white Jesus and european yhwh
>>516991921>believing the demiurge
>>516991921>In the end God's love will permeate all creation.Nothing says total love and bliss like burning in hell forever > an anguish to those who hate God.Why does hate even exist if God had to create it but he's all loving >God wants us to seek him voluntarily instead of us being coerced to bowing down to himOkay explain all the Bible verses where it says god draws the elect to him, they don't come of their own volition>“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day.”>“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”>“Those whom he foreknew he also predestined… and those he predestined he also called; those he called he also justified; those he justified he also glorified.”Sounds like most people are just destined to be damned for no reason other than god made them to be damned, but he somehow still absolutley loves them>Why does something exist at all?Why does god exist? >We cannot begin to fathom the epistemological realities of God's thought processes.If God’s thought processes are by definition unfathomable, then humans cannot claim to know what they are. So why are you talking for God in this post. You clearly can't possibly do that according to you.>We cannot know such thing.Accept we do... that's kind of the whole point of Jesus lol >It's not about the flesh, but our atonement that is pleasing to God, to which the flesh is just a vehicle.Le all powerful god loves when we sacrafice animals just seems like something dessert tribes obssesed with animal sacrafice would say... but to be fair that's just me
>>516991921>We don't know the full moral context of said situation.Uh yeah we do. God was giving le ebic divine judgement on Amalekites for attacking Israel >Yes, because you'd be playing God.If theres a heaven and you go there by dying before you're old enough to be responsible to sin and by living I risk eternal damnation then obviously please fucking kill me (before I'm old enough to know what sin is)
>>516991981Why do I think that sin is impossible in the New Earth?>>516992573If God hates sin why did he create sin? >he didn't create itWho did? If something else can make sin from nothing then God is not the creator of everything.
>>516986811"Could God have created a universe with free-will but without evil?" literally doesn't make sense. It's like saying "can God draw a square triangle?" or "can God create a universe where God doesn't exist?". If there is free will, someone will at one point do evil (evil isn't created, it's the absence of good). The paradox falls apart because it assumes God can do even illogical stuff, and because the options it provides as answers aren't all the answers you can give to said questions.
>>516986811>evil existsFirst error, evil doesn't exist on an ontological point of view because since evil is the "lesser being" or "the lesser good", the absolute evil is the total absence of good therefore the total absence of being so it would be identified with the not being itself and "not being is not", so evil doesn't exists.However in creation we observe different levels of good that gives us the perception of evil but this is logically necessary to fullfill the concept of free will because the choice would be meaningless in a world in which you have all identical things.
>>516986811Life makes alot more sense if you run under the impression god is real, but hes a bit of a dickhead.
>>516993014This trick works on 95% of people though. Someone writing a story really has to hamfist before people start questioning his character's behavior and the underlying point as a whole. Most of the time people will just blindly agree with the author.
>>516993014>assumes God can do even illogical stuffIf someone gets the label all powerful, that label tends to be seen as stronger than human logical ideas.
>>516986930Polytheists understand that everyone has their own gods, unlike monotheists who believe that only they are right. Monotheism has done great harm to humanity
>>516986811>evil existsProve it.
>>516994835
>>516993005He didn't create sin, he created law, humans created sin when they disobeyed him using free will
