>all the means for developing production turn into different ways to dominate and exploit the producer; these means deform the worker, making him into a partial human being, leaving him degraded, a mere appendage of the machine; they also destroy the substance of labor as they recast his work as torture; they alienate the worker from the intellectual powers needed for the labor process, doing so in proportion to the extent to which science is incorporated into that process as an independent power; and they make the circumstances in which the worker works more and more abnormal, subject him to a hateful, supremely petty despotism during the labor process, turn his lifetime into labor-time, and thrust his wife and children under the wheels of the juggernaut that is capital. But all the methods for producing surplus-value are also methods for bringing about accumulation, and every time accumulation increases, this is, at the same time, a means of further developing those very methods. It follows that however well or poorly a worker is paid, his situation becomes worse in proportion to capital’s accumulation. Finally, the law that always maintains the equilibrium between the relative surplus population (or industrial reserve army) and the extent and energy of accumulation welds the worker to capital more tightly than Hephaestus’s wedges bound Prometheus to the rock. This law requires an accumulation of misery that corresponds to the accumulation of capital. So the accumulation of wealth on one side of the capital relation is simultaneously the accumulation of misery, torturous labor, slavery, ignorance, brutality, and moral degradation on the opposite side, where we find the class whose own product is produced as capital.Link to last thread>>534937062
>>534959831Communist countries and corporations operate identically
>>534960257You shouls tweet that, bro. A banger
It is happening broshttps://shazoo.ru/2026/04/27/183057/pomoshchnik-prezidenta-rf-nazval-iandeks-taksi-primerom-vozrozhdeniia-planovoi-ekonomiki
>>534959831vacuous jargon
>>534960431Is Putin's war going to lead to the same thing WWI did?Hopefulyl revolution in Ukraine too
>>534960530Hello, Dr. Peterson
>>534959831Commies are quite literally the stupidest people on the planet. Imagine shilling for your own brutal death. I guess on some level it makes sense when you consider the prevalence of mental illness on the left. Wanting to try some communism again in 2026 after over a century of death and failure is on par with asking for MAID as a treatment for depression.
>>534961343Most depression is labor alienation
>>534960603>>534961235>>534961419>>534961690ESL spambot.Communism doesn't work.Not a single successful example of it in history.
>>534961808>Not a single successful example of it in history.*ahem*
>>534961808100 trillion you mean
You know, it would sure be nice if the absolute mental retardation of the 19th and 20th centuries would just fucking die out already.
>>534961343>commies>people
>>534962330>heh you DON'T want to fill your mouth with Trump's and Elon's cum?>you are no longer a homo sapienHoly fuck, you are shit-sucking dumbfuck who probably cries that Trump didn't rape your mother
>>534962443you're literally a glownigger media watching retard with a mouth full of amazon cum, lil bro.
>>534959831Tranny book
>>534961872Your country going to shit in the post-Soviet vacuum isn't an argument. Their entire economic system collapsed in the 80s. And per capita was artificially propped up by shrinking Soviet birth rates. And the entire Soviet economy was meanwhile propped up by heavily subsidized agricultural exports from the US. The only reason the USSR went on for as long as it did was because it was the best "enemy" money could buy. But then the US let it fail after it got too expensive. Using the USSR as an argument for communism is literally a joke. You could try pivoting to China as a commie success story, but then I'd have to remind you that they switched to fascism a while ago. And 72 hour work weeks in the factory for $15k a year USD isn't so great. There is no economic argument to be made for communism, ever. It's impossible to make central planning work, at which point you're down to state capitalism without the internationalist factor, which is just fascism.
>>534960330Im not on Twitter. I dont have social media
>>534962599I read books, I don't watch media
>>534962676Too bad. Your thoughts have just the right brevity
>>534959831wtf based?? i thought this was a hellsite
>>534962631Retard. Look at the graph. We caught up to Austria and even briefly overtook England which has never happened since
>>534962443>can't stop thinking about cumuh-oh... Drumpf melty out of nowhere!
>>534962788I didn't mention cum little furryAWOOster
>>534962767>weYou were an artificially propped up satellite state. The Russians weren't letting you fail as quickly as they themselves were domestically. It also wasn't even real communism for you, with actual access to Western markets. But imagine thinking that 80s Slovenia was on par with Australia in any way... that goes to show the level of commie retardation. There are 30 other economic measures someone could pull to show you were living in a backwards shit hole back then, and if I had to guess 2/3s of your GDP at that point was going straight to Russia. The remaining 1/3 paid for your food and cool American black market Levis. It's extra funny when you consider the fact that 80s Russians were deeply envious of 80s Yugoslavs. That's how much worse it was for them.
>>534963264>all this Pragerdrivel Awooing in the wind
>>534962865Yea you did you mentally ill freak.Typical commie behavior.
>>534963417Uh oh did my other post strike a nerve, the one you weren't even responding to? is it still haunting your imagination?
>>534963513No idea what you're about faggot.Sounds like Drumpf is haunting your imagination though. Which is why you're fantasizing about his cum and him raping your mom instead of making any arguments for communism. I don't blame you, since the latter is an impossible task.
>>534959831This is the third time I've seen this guy's writing posted this week.I've never read Marx but it is a little too theatrical and poetic for my liking. It reads like a slam poet criticizing something normal like it's actually unbearable hell and their ability to recognize it for that is an example of their brilliance.Also, there is no correlation between capital and suffering, there is no 'suffering quota' like he's babbling about. Suffering work comes about from neglect, incompetence or inability, all of which are symptoms of human nature and not political systems. His gripe is that working for people who are retards sucks and makes you and your family retarded too. Well no shit, that's why we all want to buy ourselves a plot of land and get away from society and the retards. You can't do that under Communism though.
>>534963264>You were an artificially propped up satellite state. The Russians weren't letting you fail as quicklyWe literally were in a third block. We were not even part of the eastern block.
>>534963741So that negates your chart back here then? >>534961872Come on bro, work with me. You just admitted to my argument being correct.Thanks, I guess?Communism is gay and stupid. It's a much faster way for jews to kill everyone and take all their stuff. Giving jews the ultimate power over everyone's lives can never be a good system. The best case scenario for communism is be like China: so switch to a market economy but where they organ harvest you if you don't comply. This isn't good. No one should want this, not even retarded troon redditors like the one faggot with the non-sequiturs about Trump and Musk's semen.
>>534963707Labor alienation is hell and you are gaslighting yourself if ypu say otherwise
>>534964182>So that negates your chart back here then?No, because we were communist. Just not part of eastern block
>>534962678>I read booksX
forgot pic
>>534964389>>534964449Very original, highly witty
>>534964257Did Yugoslaiva set its economic policy independent of Moscow then? I'm down to hear about this communist economic miracle that was sadly curtailed by the collapse of the the colonial power in charge. But I'm not so sure that's how your grandma would describe life in 80s Yugoslavia though.Communism fails even harder in a global economy btw. It was a different time in the 80s, before US jews went all out with "free" trade. So any arguments you could have for Slovenia having been a relatively nice subsidized satellite state with okay economic metrics on paper, would not work today. Not without strict border control, i.e., keeping people from escaping. But then you just end up with a USSR/Nork situation, with zero growth due to lack of incentive for innovation. Norks are another funny case study, totally dependent on China and Putin to continue their existence, all for one fat manlet.
>>534964717yugo wasn't communism. yugoslavia was awesome conceptually though. shame about the shitty economics
Serious question: did Marx ever have an actual job/profession?
>>534964717We were not subsidized by anyone.>I'm down to hear about this communist economic miracleIt really was nothing else than smart economic planning (like Luka Koper) and early adoption of modern technologies (through Iskra Delta)
>>534964901journalist, author, correspondent, editoryI guess german journalists back in his day had backbones
>>534962443>a homo salientthis nigga thinks "homo sapiens" is the plural of "homo sapien" kek
>>534964814There is no communism. As soon as you take away the incentive for innovation the entire system goes on a clock towards total collapse, or a bait and switch over to fascism. Modern day commies fall into two groups: retarded or they actually want Chinese style fascism. But that's where I have to remind them of the organ harvesting, 72 hour a week factory jobs, and tiny bathroom/kitchen/bedroom combo apartments. Communism is just a kike trick to get the stupidest goyim to give them power to murder them. And it's never been anything more than that.
>>534964965>we were not subsidizedwe recieved IMF loans and did get bankrolled after WW2 for the damagesstalin's system was better, no IMF loans
>>534965220Yu's entire external debt was 15% of the GDP. In Slovenia specifically it was probably even less due to our high industrial output.
>>534965066incentive for innovation is a cia argument. but you are american so I would not expect you to understand. when the revolution comes your whole world will turn upside down and you will finally have to work for your keep
>>534959831Serious explosion of commie threads the past week. Why?
>>534965299your data is wrong. maybe this is the number in the 60s or something. by the 80s debt and unemployment crawled up together. big issue. the only long-term solution was a planned economy. yugo had strayed too far
>>534965012So that's a no. What the fuck I thought he was like a sailor or an ironworker or something.
>>534965354I am being paid by the head office of the Democratic Party and the China lobby. isn't everyone else also?
>>534965510TIL working for newspapers isn't a real job. does he really look like a sailor or ironworker? he was fat bro
>>534965583I mean, if he was making the paper or maybe doing all the typesetting or something. But just a wordsmith? Hell no.
>>534965325>CIA argumentYou're a low IQ brown. There will be no "revolution" of any kind without elite support, as per always.>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elite_theoryAnd the elites aren't so stupid as to try communism for themselves some more. Even the people in charge hate it, hence why China stopped doing it voluntarily. The thing you need to always remember about Communism is it's just one of many failed jewish experiments for fucking over the goyim. Even a stupid brown person should be able to understand this.
>>534965633what an odd way to look at itpeople are either labor or capitalyou're either paid a wage to perform some task, or you pay others a wage and profit from the surplus they produce
>>534959831>no, *I* won't be working the fields, I'll be one of the free thinker types.K. Keep us posted.
>>534966280>If Hitler really wanted to be a friend to the German worker, he should've just been one himself and not done all that political stuff. What a hypocrite!
>>534959831Imagine working a communist bs job
>>534966383i've had a couple bs jobs right here in the USA
>>534966280Boy you sure piz and shid and cum yourself over working in the fields. This must be why I keep hearing about why we need Mexican labor
>>534965734typical yank education on display again. So cucked by neoliberal policies that you kneejerk into a failed ideology that speedran capitalism into the dirt like the naps they all took in the end. Yet somehow you ignore the same glaring issues you cope over with "communism." No child left behind really made yall stupid as fuck
>>534959831fuck your isms
>>534966383yanks already do...must be why all of you continue to spout retarded things but perceive them as profound.
>>534962723It's not good that they run the same way. Everything bad about corporations is what happens large scale in communist countries.Nothing good beyond short term "benefits" happens in either. Long term, only the people at the top benefit
>>534967922I trust and prefer elected representatives of labor running large scale industry over representatives of the shareholders
>>534959831Sounds jewish
>>534967788Imagine having to work because the state wanted it to look like they had full employment
the corporation is an externalizing machine. it externalizes as many costs as possible. ecologically this means the destruction of the environment. economically it means the transfer of costs onto the public to repair the damage done to "nature's machinery." As climate change gets worse we'll see more and more costs transferred to the government. that means higher taxes (and so less money to spend on the real economy) or a larger national debt (or both).
>>534968265The state does not have to fake everyone having 40 h/week employment. If that's not required they xan cut hours with no harm to you
>>534968265why do you keep describing current day yankville? You trialing meds again?
>>534968420>>534968427Someone's gotta clean the toilets.At least in America you can quit.
>>534969164Are you worried about a demand for toilet cleaners spiking under communism and a demand for other jobs vanishing?
>>534969260Imagine being stuck counting nuts and bolts for the rest of your life
>>534965734lol @ the racecopechina did not stop doing it voluntarily either. there was a period of protracted struggle. your view of history is shallow. elite theory is bs
>>534969401That's capitalism for you. Thankfully communism offers free, unlimited education so your ambitions are only limited by your talent
>>534969488Someone's gotta do inventory for the soviet state
>>534969565Yes, and someone has to for capitalism too. What is your point?
>>534959831Marx was jewish
>>534969688Imagine having a bs job in a state that has no concept of money
>>534969911the concept of a moneyless but not stateless society lmfao please just read the fucking books
>>534969911If you lack the ability to learn enough to get a better job, it is optimal and not bullshit because it is the best you can do
>>534970041Imagine being stuck with a bs job in a stateless classless society without the concept of money
>>534959831Labor theory of value is debunked. Subjective theory of value is correct. Surplus labor value is not a real thing.
>>534970188What does the subjective theory of value say that value is?
>>534970147you would simply be able to get another job. communism is post-scarcity. ie probably a long way into the futurealso love the idea that bs jobs don't exist now and people aren't stuck in them
>>534970188so you posted Kapital but ur not a commie? what kind of weird hellsite is this.
>>534959831Communism is GREAT!As an academic theory or a setting for a fictional novel where you can control every element of reality and author characters exactly as they need to be in order to operate successfully under such a system.The issue is that human beings are not fictional creatures in a Game of Thrones who can be rewritten to ignore hundreds of thousands of years of evolution.IF Marx stopped at his critiques of the jewish monetary system he would be a genius, but he didn't. His diagnosis was very good, but his treatment and his prescriptions for how to deal with the jewish financial system are insane and counter to human nature. We WANT our culture. We WANT to provide for our families. We WANT identity, Being and belonging. We NEED these things to be productive as Marx half correctly identified in his theory of estrangement. The problem is Marx is the ultimate materialist. He knows we need to see ourselves in the output of our labour in order to feel a sense of meaning, but he says that it is bourgeois to see ourselves reflected by our societies according to our racial or cultural identities.IF you take Marx and add transcendence and metaphysics to his work you get 50% of National Socialism. Humans need competition, humans need struggle, humans need identity, so there is the other 50% of National Socialism. It provides the race soul an outlet for it's eternal overbecoming.
>>534970484Capital says use value is subjective but becomes labor value when social. Just like what a sound means is subjective but becomes a word with mutually understood meaning socially.Surplus value = profit, the value created above the cost. Presumably he means surplus wealth though
>>534970540>>>/mlp/>>>/ptg/
>>534970540what you want and what the collective humanity needs are two very different, clashing things. your identity and culture must be crushed for the greater good. there is no room for race science and white supremacy in the human family
>>534959831>all the means for developing production turn into different ways to dominate and exploit the producerIf Marx just had someone sit his retarded ass down and explain the concept of time preference to him millions of lives could have been saved.
>>534969874So is Stallman, Einstein and Jesus's Apostoles.Although Marx doesn't look jewish. Someone ought to dig up his bones and analyze his actual genes. Because he looks nothing like his father
>>534970347The STV says that value is determined by what people are willing to pay rather than an intrinsic property of the good/service.
>>534970664hi, this is not accurate to marx. what does this have to do with you posting capital quotes though?
>>534970709>as a billionaire I will jot do menial labor because...I have a high time preference! Yeah, that's the reason. Also if you don't, it's because you have a LOW time preference
>>534970765That is like saying "weight is what the scale says". It isn't a theory of what weight is, just a fucking drooling fully auto retard taurology
>>534970116Imagine being stuck in a bs job in a state that has no concept of money with a phd because the state said they have enough doctors
>>534970821You should finish chapter one
>>534970840I have no idea what your point is because you're not even setting your strawman up effectively.
>>534959831>exploit the producerWhat sort of things do you produce and who is exploiting you?>the workerWhat do you do for work?What do you feel your role will be once we abolish private property?
>>534970914>we need capitalism because under communism we would have too many doctorsHmmm
>>534970914>guy who has no idea about anythinggo back to watching Fox News please.obviously experts with phds would be preferred for jobs after a revolution. just like before. just like anytime in history
>>534971017We have too many doctors now
>>534971056>t. the AMA
>>534959831Communism has failed, repeatedly. Marx himself would say that his thesis has failed and the dialectic requires a new synthesis.
>>534970945what? I have finished Ch.1. You are muddling theories and mixing up Marx's words. I encourage you to read more of the work.The book isn't organised like a textbook. It's laden with irony and sometimes you need to read multiple sections far from eachother to understand the concept.
>>534971086>>534971043Imagine how pointless that existence would be
>>534970987nice, cute cake bro. i love your hair too
>>534971196what existence? being a doctor? it seems pretty fufilling to me. a surplus of doctors would mean better quality care and shorter working hours for them too. awesome all round
>>534971249Imagine all that work for not
>>534971452sorry, I really can't tell what you're trying to say here. not what? do you mean naught? like all that work for nothing? why would it be for nothing? you would be treating people
>>534971137I'm aware Marx uses sarcasm and puns and literary references
>>534971452Cuba mandates one teacher for every fice children. Castro says this is the only reason why their literacy rate is better than America's
>>534970903People can value things for any reason they like. You may value an object because it serves some utility, or because you think it's beautiful, or because it reminds you fond memories, etc. And that determines what you are willingly to pay, which when aggregated with what other people are willing to pay determines market value.
>>534971530that's good but you've still absolutely butchered marx's LTV and warped it into some kind of STV thing. maybe pickup Michael Heinrich's reader alongside capital
>>534959831
>>534971581Post pics of your work boots with timestamp, comrade.
>>534970435Someone's gotta maintain the machines>>534971526Counting nuts and bolts?
>>534970903
>>534971646What IS value though? If you can just say, "weight can say anything on the scale" you aren't telling me what weight is. What do you mean by value? It is an economic term. If you can't say, that is NOT a theory of value.>>534971891I think you have enough fap material with your pictures of your dad
>>534972133why would a doctor be counting nuts and bolts? are they autistic in this hypothetical? seems like a strange career move but they'd be free too. do you think doctors should be forced to treat people against their will?
>>534971891STFU reactinoary
>>534972247LTV is socially average labor a commodity needs to be created, not individual labor
>>534972247>guy who hasn't read the first five pages
>>534972321Is labor fungible?
>>534972275So you've never actually worked a day in your worthless life, produce nothing besides shitty threads on 4chan, but somehow you're going to come out ahead when the WORKERS seize the means of PRODUCTION.Good luck with the glorious revolution, comrade.
Marx's ignorant bullshit derailed any real critique of capitalism. It's like trying to criticize a theory in physics when you have nutball Flat Earthers around every corner.
>Total Billionaire/Neoliberal death btw comaradeshttps://youtu.be/BF7J78C3aRo?si=FAiLudi015uZ4J26
>>534972498nice to see there's sane people on this hellsite
>>534972300>why would a doctor be counting nuts and bolts?Inventory has got to be done.
anyone who replaces u's with v's always turns out to be some total niggerfaggotit's like the text form of blue hair, no one cares retard, go to africa and test your communist theories there
>>534972387No, because it is, ultimate, a qualitative value. Converting it into something fungible, however, is the process of commodification
>>534972726It's just an imitation of Roman writing
>>534972677I'm no medical professional, but isn't taking inventory usually done by nurses/aides? And are nuts and bolts really that prevalent in hospital environments? And what does this have to do with communism or socialism or anything?
>>534972659Aye!https://youtu.be/cu9EYHjohp0?si=oV9ycMdaBVt0Zn_8
>>534972884nevermind
>>534972834Define value, since you're clearly using a different definition than what normal people use.
>>534972865Got stuck in a factory. Too many doctors. Imagine having a bs job in a state that has no concept of money
>>534962865>>534963398i knew the mascot threatened you
>>534959831communism is a jewish inventionsorry but i dont support the genocidal people of israel and its diaspora
>>534972974Alwaysmind
>>534972475>i don't like the most widely-accepted criticism so it's bullshit
>>534973011why would you be forced into a factory? in what scenario would having too many doctors even be a bad thing? the lady doth protest too much, methinks. if there is a surplus of doctors then wait times will simply shrink, quality of care grow, and working hours be cut.
>>534972986Value is a social function (like language, words are only words when they have a social meaning, otherwise they are just yapping), it arises when a society (can be as two persons, theoretically, to hundreds of millions) evaluates the average effort that said society must exert to produce said commodity.
>>534973169It's bullshit on its own merits.
>>534973095your obsession with animated schoolgirls betrays your degeneracy
>>534973057
>>534973193>why would you be forced into a factory?If you don't work you don't eat
>>534973256>degeneracy
>>534973340why does the doctor work in a factory, instead of as a doctor?
>>534973237>Value is a social function (like language, words are only words when they have a social meaning, otherwise they are just yapping), it arises when a society (can be as two persons, theoretically, to hundreds of millions) evaluates the average effort that said society must exert to produce said commodity.I see, well when normal people talk about value they mean either the amount of currency or other goods something is exchangeable for, or its desirability in an abstract sense. When you talk to people outside of your little cult you might want to keep the normal definition in mind. It makes it very hard to communicate with you.
>>534973375Too many doctors
>>534973415that's great news for this hypothetical communist societyit seems more likely he would go overseas, though, to a place where there aren't enough doctors
>>534959831Is this from Das Kapital?Every single word is correct. The problem is that Communism doesn't work, and Marx gets blamed.We CANNOT escape classism within the governing structure.Another classic case of the Deutschman being misunderstood by lesser humans.Hey, guess what, seethers in the thread, most people aren't Capitalists; the same way most people are Liberals.Even in your 'based' movement.2000 years later and noone has improved on the Tribune as a balance.
>>534973340that is for is right after the revolution, under the dictatorship of the proletariat. not communism
>>534973513Who's going to maintain the machines?>>534973488Too many doctors all over the world
>>534973402The price is indeed a reflection of the market, a social function, appraising the value of a commodity. It is not always accurate, when they overestimate a value wildly, it leads to bubbles like tulip mania
>>534973507It's from Capital yes specifically that edition, volume one
>>534973575in the dotp? the engineers and workers who maintained them before the revolution.
>>534973666After? Someone's gotta do it
>>534973575>>Too many doctors all over the worldwho dropped the ball in the education system here? if one out of every three people on earth is a doctor, catastrophic systematic mistakes were made and one doctor having to work in a factory is probably the least of humanity's concerns
>>534973375The doctor of brushing up in the factory..
>>534973375Turbo Trvth Nuke: Once the doctor seizes the means of production and anihilates the filthy oligarchy he will be free to do whatever he wants, including being a Doctor
>>534973737after what? the revolution? I just told you. the same people who did it before
>>534973340>If you don't work you don't eat..If you don't eat you don't work..
>>534962599I electrocute my dog all the time. Sometimes just for fun. It’s no big deal
>>534973779Everyone was following their passion. They all just wanted to be doctors.>>534973948After communism is achieved
>>534973601>The price is indeed a reflection of the market, a social function, appraising the value of a commodity. It is not always accurateSo according to you there is some platonic value which exists independent of context? I am going to go out on a limb and say that you probably believe the state has the ability to magically divine this platonic value.>it leads to bubbles like tulip maniaNo, that was caused primarily by currency manipulation by the Dutch central bank. Its effect on the Dutch economy has also been massively overstated in popular culture.
>>534974144The more people who become doctors, the more rigorous the qualifications and performance required to be one
>>534974183No, no, no. I don't think the state can always appraise value perfectly. I think however it would have more perfect access to informationThere are have been countless bubbles. There are also market corrections. Both come from something being overestimated in value
>>534973261>muh early Slav communal livingThey weren't unique in this, as many peoples have lived that way in one time or another throughout history. Communal living dates back to early hunter-gatherer societies, where shared resources, food, and childcare were essential for survival. Early historical examples span from ancient philosophical schools to religious and social utopian experiments designed to create equality, such as early Christian monasteries, the Shakers, and the Oneida community.
>>534974144after communism, we can't really imagine it exactly. it's too far away. probably something like a household. my housemate doesn't pay me to clean but I do it. I don't pay them to empty the dishwasher but they do it. A doctor under communism wouldn't pay a nurse to count pills, but they both understand they have a role to play, and are happy to. just how I'm happy to alternate cleaning the coffee machine at work with my coworkers, even though its not in our job descriptions and we don't pay eachother
>>534972275A thing's value is how much of a person's resources they are willing to exchange for it which is itself determined by their desires.
>>534974415This is like saying a thing's weight is how much it takes to equal it on the scale. It's a tautology, it isn't actually saying what weight is
>>534974474You are confusing price with value.
>>534974144>They all just wanted to be doctors...All that studying to be paid shit wages..You make more as a builder than a doctor in the UK..You only get paid well if you been in the MD world for many many years... Many people drop out of university because they cannot do the study work or fail the test as they go through it so not everyone can get a DOCTORATE DEGREE for everyone to want one..
>>534974253>I think however it would have more perfect access to informationI'd suggest you read Mises's "Economic Calculation in the Socialist Commonwealth". It addresses this issue extremely thoroughly.https://mises.org/library/book/economic-calculation-socialist-commonwealth>There are have been countless bubblesYes, caused by currency inflation>There are also market corrections.It's pleasant to see that even Marxists recognize that recessions are not caused by animal spirits like Keynesians do, and instead understand that they are corrections for malinvestment.>Both come from something being overestimated in valueOr underestimated, but you are fundamentally correct. Bubbles are not merely the result of a single business or person making an error in their economic calculations, but are instead systemic and sustained clusters of errors. Those do not happen by accident, they are caused by the currency supply and interest rates being manipulated in such a way to cause people to spend when they otherwise would have saved. This happens almost exclusively because of the actions of government backed central banks.
>>534974474the root of this idea is that value can't be measured scientifically, that it's ideological and price is the only characteristic that can actually be measuredam i understanding this right?
>>534974652No, you are. I already said price is an appraisal of value. You said some nonsens that exchange value is desire (use value) or something, even though the overwhelming majority of futures contracts are bought and sold by people who never intend to either take or give delivery
>>534964717"Innocents". Sure buddy. I'm extremely skeptical of any claims of innocents when it comes to domestic political violence. Whether it comes from the left or right. You don't get to that level of actually killing people in your own society for no damn reason.
>>534974722Except gold coming into Spain from the New World caused a similar problem because the market was initially using the socially average labor required to obtain gold without factoring in the new world, which was of course almost impossible to accurately appraise
>>534974732The root of this is that value is something social, like language. It's certainly not a chemical compound but it exists in a very firm way
Marx was a retard.Bakunin was right.
>>534975007saying this in big 2026 is crazy
>>534974816No, you literally are. The price is the number on the scale in your analogy, the value is the amount of resources people are willing to exchange. Have you never experienced this? Have you never seen something for sale and thought to yourself >wow that's a good deal or >wtf I'm not paying that That's your personal value of the thing being different than the market value.
>>534974914Yet another example of a cluster of errors caused by an expansion of the currency supply. Your attempts to cram your labor theory of value into this are unnecessary. The Cantillon effect explains the problem adequately.
>>534975180>The price is the number on the scale in your analogy, the value is the amount of resources people are willing to exchange.This is more tautology. If I give you ten sheep for your mother, it is still a price>and thought to yourselfThat's use value. Not exchange value. Exchange value is when I evaluate what it is worth on the market because I am buying it as capital. Exchange value is what governs the market. The price of wheat is discovered in futures contract trading
>>534975280Currency supply can't be excessive or inadequate, unless it is over appraised or under appraised. Currency signifies social power, e.g. command of labor. How much labor x currency commands is the key factor here. There is "too much currency" when the labor supposedly commanded by the currency in circulation, is far over the labor that it can physically command
>>534975362>This is more tautology. If I give you ten sheep for your mother, it is still a pricePerfect example. So do you understand that if you give me ten sheep for my mother then that means I value my mother less than ten sheep and you value her more than ten sheep?
>>534975362>That's use value. Not exchange value. Exchange value is when I evaluate what it is worth on the market because I am buying it as capital. Exchange value is what governs the market. The price of wheat is discovered in futures contract tradingExchange value and use value are the same thing. A brewer might decide to buy bottles to put his beer into instead of cans because they are less expensive or the other way around, and he might choose to pay more because he simply prefers bottles or cans in spite of them being more or less efficient.>>534975528>Currency supply can't be excessive or inadequate, unless it is over appraised or under appraised.absolutely correct. The issue is that when currency supply changes people's evaluation of how much a dollar is worth does not immediately change, thus leading to people still buying and selling at the old prices while the reciepients of the new currency get a first mover advantage to bid away scarce factors of production from people who got their currency through exchanges, and it also diminishes the value of people's saved currency, diminishing the utility of saving money for later, encouraging wasteful spending.>How much labor x currency commands is the key factor here.No, it's not. Labor is just one of many factors of production bid for with money.
>>534975642Among us, it means we appraise the average labor of our society (in this case a society of three people) required to obtain ten sheep, and required to obtain your mother, are of equal weight. Even though a sheep is obviously much more difficult to shag, it remains our appraisal, socially.
>>534971196As opposed to what? The "meaning of work" in America? A country who's seeming goal is to destroy whites world wide and make sure the future of humanity is in the hands of judiazed satanic billionaires? Holy shit dude ANY work done in "capitalist America" is not only pointless but is leading to your own people's destruction long term. The only work "worth doing" at this point is against this demon system.
>>534975821>Exchange value and use value are the same thingAbsolutely not. Like I said, the vast majority of futures contracts are bought by people with zero (0) desire for the commodity and no intention of ever taking delivery.Labor is the ultimate factor because it is the *one common factor* among all commodities.
>>534971043Except when the communists purposefully kill those who know what they're doing. Like they did in russia, china, and cambodia.
>>534975841Incorrect, if we determined that they were of equal weight, then the exchange would not take place. Our evaluations must be different. Would I trade you ten sheep for ten sheep? Obviously not. In this example, the price is likely an inaccurate measure of either of our evaluations. It's possible you would have given me twenty sheep or that I would have sold my mother for one sheep.
>>534975989to make an omelet... nice try claiming cambodia btwI wonder how many kids would've spent their short lives in fields without the russians and chinese lifting them up into education?
>>534976156Much, much less than the communists pushed into mass graves.
>>534975821>Exchange value and use value are the same thingthis is more neoclassical nonsense like the efficient market hypothesisfor this to be true, every market participant would have to have complete and perfect information about all other market participants (an impossibility)
>>534975951>Absolutely not. Like I said, the vast majority of futures contracts are bought by people with zero (0) desire for the commodity and no intention of ever taking delivery.So their intended use is reselling it for a profit. Exchange is a type of use.>Labor is the ultimate factor because it is the *one common factor* among all commodities.So we return to the question of if labor is fungible. You say it's not, so if it is not, then how can value be assessed in terms of labor?
>>534976079Wrong, we can still believe they are of equal weight, your issue is you forget were talking about *socially* average labor. It might be I can easily get sheep and you can easily get mothers, at least more easily than fathers, but the appraisal is based on an average exertion, socially, required.You wouldn't trade me ten sheep for ten sheep because you can't have an exchange value in that. That is to say, "ten sheep are worth ten sheep" is a meaningless statement. Exchange value requires a commodity to be evaluated in terms of another
>>534976235put down the big black book of communism and pickup anything else not written in collaboration with israel, the CIA, or a billionaire
>>534976235Ok cool story. Now do all the 'mass graves' capitalist imperialist countries created to secure markets and stop uprisings in other people's countries. Billion people in the ground easy.
>>534976353>stop pointing out that my philosophy does nothing but murder the very people it purports to help en mass.Nahh.
>>534976447Not even close to true. Now you're going to do the slight of hand that the greeks attacked troy for the sake of capital, and thus poor hector is a victim of dole.
>>534976493it does help. it has helped hundreds of millions. the few that got shot deserved it btw. sorry but burning grain during a famine or plotting to install fascist regimes should be punished.the greatest mass murders have been and are the bourgeois states
>>534959831Hmm.
>>534976338Yes when your only interest in something is for what you can exchange it for, you depart from use value and enter into exchange value, because now how much x is worth to you is not your concern, rather how much it is worth to others is. Air for example has enormous use value, but no exchange value. And here the commodity of the contracts is not even taken or delivered at all, never even bought or sold>So we return to the question of if labor is fungible. You say it's not, so if it is not, then how can value be assessed in terms of labor?>how can value be assessed in terms of labor?It is assessed by socially average labor, the average labor society must exert (which is perhaps purely hypothetical), not any specific this labor or that labor
>>534976544>the greeks attacked troy for the sake of capitalwell, women WERE property in those days
>>534976640No, the greatest mass murderers in human history are the communists. They primarily prey upon the worker. Communism is a philosophy of the bourgeoisie.
>>534976338>Exchange is a type of usethis is the kind of thinking that makes me extremely suspicious of neoclassical economicswhy does it work so hard to erase useful distinctions?
>>534976749pure fabrication. in reality it was the communists who did more for the workers than any monarchist regime ever did. and it was the socialist states who pulled mllions out of poverty and forced the west to develop mature welfare statesthe only people telling you that the commies were the greatest mass murderers are the epstein class
>>534976824The epstien class is the commie class. The sad truth of history is fascism has done more for the working class than communism has. This is because communism uses an knowingly incorrect praxis. It is the ideology of the elite, used to pacify the worker. You have been successfully pacified.
>>534976331I'm sorry, what? Can you explain the concept of exchange value and use value in Austrian terms instead of Marxian ones?>>534976699Even if I don't intend to use it, merely to exchange it, my evaluation of how much to buy and sell it for still depends on how much I think other people will want to buy it for, thus making its value still purely subjective. So its exchange value is still determined by its use value.>>534976799>this is the kind of thinking that makes me extremely suspicious of neoclassical economicsI'm not a fan of neoclassical economics either, but I've never heard the terms exchange value or use value used in Austrian economics.>why does it work so hard to erase useful distinctions?I don't see how it's a useful distinction.
>>534976348Wrong. You are only assuming that the price is the average without offering any mechanism to determine that. I could value my mother at one sheep and you could value her at 1,000. There would be no reliable way to get a price of 500. If we introduced another person who also valued her at 1,000 then the price would skyrocket to 999 at an auction between you two, rather than the average.
>>534976913Fascism is a shit ideology about sucking banker dick. WWI forced proles to kill each other for capitalists interests and fascist were outraged that communists hated it and said it the job of proles to kill other proles to make capitalists hard
>>534976913fascism has done nothing for the proletariat except lead to many millions of them dying. epstein was not a communist. billionaires are not calling for their self-abolition. there are no billionaires waging a maoist revolution in the appalachians
>>534977022>communists>complaining about sucking banker dick.Communism is the philosophy of the banker. A strong banker class is core to the idea of communism.
>>534976950Your valuation doesn't come from dimension x, it comes from information the market has access to, and you evaluate it with others in a social sense. Not as some atom in a vacuum, which is what you seem to be implying>>534976991We are each appraising the socially average labor quite differently, and both of us could be wrong. But that is what we are appraising.
>>534977070This is your brain on orange furry dick lol
>>534977033>the moneyed elite are not the backbone of communism.Laughable. Who was engles? Who backed stalin? Who backed mao? Communism purports and uses a knowingly toothless organizing principal to eliminate effective action. Class is not an effective organizing principal, and the elite know it. Thus they push it. Did it never strike you as odd that elite production centers and propaganda organs push communism?
>>534977155This is what communist theory actually says. If you read, you'd know this.
>>534977134>Your valuation doesn't come from dimension x, it comes from information the market has access to, and you evaluate it with others in a social sense. Not as some atom in a vacuum, which is what you seem to be implyingI am not implying some sort of platonic price exists. I'm saying precisely the opposite. The valuation comes from an understanding of what other people will pay for it. I am in fact accusing you of arguing for platonic prices. Your labor theory implies that labor has some absolute value, in spite of your having admitted that labor is not even fungible.
>>534976950>I'm sorry, what? Can you explain the concept of exchange value and use value in Austrian terms instead of Marxian ones?the exchange value of a widget is $1, and a sprocket is $2i have a secret machine that can turn a widget into 10 sprockets once a dayso long as i don't tell anyone about my machine, the exchange values don't change, even though the use value of a widget for me is 20x its exchange value according to the market
>>534977255I am rather saying exchange value is an estimation of socially average labor required to obtain something
>>534977242Nah commies will never admit this, they're basically women
>>534959831like many things he wrote, extremely well statedthe problem is when modern “communists”use their association to marx as a cudgelto advance their anti white societyall critiques of capital and power asymetry asideyou cant have an honest society when itbinds the people a priori with double standardsand legal “rights and standards” asymetrically distributed as a result of this“intellectual conpartmentalization”so we cant fix this by attacking capital aloneyou have to address the way in which modern societylegall discriminates against white people in order to shoehornin “racial egalitarianism”
>>534977203communism is a bourgeois movement because Engels was bourgeois and Stalin... robbed banks? what is the mao connection even? because he had a wealthier peasant background? that's like being a beggar with meat instead of bread in your coat pocket. they expropriated the wealthy after achieving power regardless of who supported them or not.class is very effective. that is why post-structuralism has been so heavily promoted, to obscure class relations. please do pray tell which elite propaganda organs push communism and not toothless social democracy for edgy college students
>>534977242Communism says interest should be abolished and the state provide interest-free loans
>>534977397and ironically the state empowers “minorities”like women at the expense of menso you cant address capital and power asymetrieswithout first addressing the fact that the state is forcingeveryone to follow these fake rulesand therefore violating the notion of freedom of association right off the batso i think approaching the problem from a strictly economic lenseis simply reductionisticyou have to address the racial elementsand the way in which modern people distortreality in so many ways to make any of this shit seem plausible or reasonablewhen its nothing more than covert slavery
>>534977326Okay, that makes sense. I hadn't ever heard those specific terms used in Austrian economics before, although I'll admit I only discovered Austrian economics about a year ago.
>>534977397We are never allowed to actually address the problem of labor alienation, always, "something else first"
>>534977660excuse me? i just said it was well writtenslow down and respond to the entire post
>>534977534are you really an adult? is this meant to be written like a poem or something? you keep doing it
>>534977551i'm not sure any of the major schools of economic theory, including marxism, really account for the reality of asymmetrical informationreal-life markets are more like players sitting around a poker table trying to take each other's money than these idealized exchanges where people are honestly trading commodities and labor the way economists talk about them
The law of Capitalism is simple, and it is merciless. A system built on profit must, in time, devour itself. In the beginning it speaks of freedom, of enterprise, of the strength of the individual. But freedom without duty becomes license. Enterprise without honor becomes exploitation. And so Capitalism decays. It always decays into Late Stage Capitalism.Look at what the Elite do when decay sets in. They are not blind. They are cunning. They know the deepest truth of power: that a man’s vices are easier to govern than his virtues. Virtue makes him stand upright. Vice makes him crawl. And so they build an empire on the crawl.They fill the cities with drink. They flood the schools with drugs. They plaster the walls with images of sexual depravity. They call it industry. They call it culture. They call it progress. But it is poison, measured out in doses, sold for profit, and it hollows out the spirit of a nation. A drunken people cannot march. An addicted people cannot think. A debauched people cannot fight. This is how the Elite remain Elite. By making sure the people are weak.
>>534977777argument not detected
>>534977811But no lie lasts forever. There comes an hour when the people stir. When the worker sees his wages buy only bottles and filth. When the mother sees her sons made into slaves of pleasure. When the young man sees no future except servitude to appetite. Then the streets begin to murmur. Then the cry goes up: Down with Capitalism. End the system.And in that hour, as if on cue, the Communist enters. He wears the mask of the savior. He speaks of equality, of justice, of the end of exploitation. The masses, desperate for relief, open the gates to him.Yet observe what happens. The palaces do not empty. The masters do not vanish. The Elite are not destroyed. They only change their coats. Where once they were bankers and merchants, now they are commissars and professors. Where once they called themselves the Moneyed Class, now they call themselves the Intellectual Class.They no longer need vice to rule. Why should they? The old game of selling alcohol and pornography was only necessary when they had to purchase power in the shadows. Now the State is theirs. The law is theirs. The schools, the newspapers, the courts, all are theirs.So vice peddling dies, not from morality, but from obsolescence. The new Elite rules not through addiction, but through decree. Big Government becomes the new opium. Regulations replace the bottle. Propaganda replaces the brothel. And the people, who once were slaves to their own desires, become slaves to the State’s desires.That is the cycle. Capitalism breeds weakness through vice. Communism pretends to cure it, only to breed a new weakness through obedience. In both, the nation bleeds. In both, the Elite remain. Only the names change. Only the chains change.
>>534977798Capitalists always have this mindset, either with each other, or with the working class. That is the reason they heavily restrict collective bargaining by labor but encourage corporatization of capital in shareholders
>>534977400Communism says you should issue a non-backed currency and all things should be owned by oligarchs. This is banker philosophy.>>534977398The bank of london, along with british and german elite backed stalin. Mao was backed by the bank of london, along with other international elite. They were not rags to riches stories. They were deliberate attempts to kill workers, and they did.>name organs that push communismThe fed, almost every american college, our newspapers. It's harder to name the organs that don't. You know what they don't dare push? Effective organization.
>>534977798you can never have perfect information. you just have to make do with good enough. what's nice about the Marxist approach is the possible integration of mass-computerised planning. so you can get exact accurate input/output data straight from workplaces, like the big corporations do now at amazon or walmart or whateverit's a more enticing future than whatever is going on now
>>534977862yeah, i've been warming up to marxism recently because it seems to handle the dirty reality better than any of the other economic systemsin many cases the economic theories themselves are another card being played by capital against labor
>>534977959“theories on top of theories”words and endless words for what?to manage the miscegenated masses?the spiritually dead golem homo economicuslol what a pathetic thread
>>534977924Mao being backed by the Bank of London? source?? How did the Brits and Germans back Stalin? and why should I care about workers who tried to betray the revolution? what's wrong with taking money from the rich and turning around on them even?the fed is not communist. american colleges spit out social fascists, not communists. same with newspapers. you just have a very american view of communism
>>534977924Communism says all things should be socially owned by the working class. Capitalism says everything should be privately owned by oligarchs. You can see for yourself when communism ended in Russia, all the social property was privatized by, literally referred to as, the oligarchs, and the standard of living plummeted and crime skyrocketted
>>534978009get your boring racial dogshit out of hereyou have the rest of the board to spam with your caveman politics
>>534977134>We are each appraising the socially average labor quite differently, and both of us could be wrong. But that is what we are appraising.Is it your contention that at scale this measurement(price) will become more accurate? If so, how?
>>534978064we will see how this post ages
>>534962756That's a picture of OP
>>534977798I think the Austrians account for the problem to some extent with things like Hayek's knowledge problem and Mises's economic calculation problem. I do think there are limitations with Austrian economic theory in regards to that though. Economists generally could do with learning about what people outside their field have discovered. Like history and math for a start. Information theory and graph theory could probably revolutionize economics, but it seems like most economists aren't even aware those exist.
>>534978094Information availability
>>534978100two more weeks until the "white race" rises up, right? nevermind that the "white race" is nonsense invented by the bitter defeated southern bourgeoisie after they lost their slaves in the civil war
>>534978194still waiting for an argumentim seeing lots of idsavoiding argumentsi dont think you guys are going to be getting any movements off the groundwith such weak and shaky intellectual strcutures
>>534959831The kinds of people who get promoted from the ground floor at an American corporation are already subhuman. They are r-selected, neurotypical manipubullies who arrogate themselves shepherds of a greater man's conceptual creation. They're bottom feeding parasites whose only value is producing ignorant slave labor.
>>534978194what is the actual diversity of thought on 4chan? is it just this thread that seems to be more civilised or this is common?
>>534978187Information about the average social labor required to produce something, ok. So how does that account for something like trading cards that everyone knows are cheap to produce but still sell for a lot?
>>534977959>i've been warming up to marxism recently because it seems to handle the dirty reality better than any of the other economic systemsFrom what I understand Marx's two big failings in economics were his labor theory of value and his inability to grasp the concept of time preference.
>>534978040During communism everything was owned by oligarchs too. Same as everything is owned by oligarchs right now in china.
>>534978248why are youtalking like you'rewriting haiku?
>>534978330argument not detected
>>534978329>during communism everything was owned by oligarchsthis was not at all the nature of the economy in the early to mid soviet period, and definitely not in China during the Cultural Revolution
>>534978194There's references to the white race that predate the usa.
>>534978376It definitely was. All communism was is an excuse to kill the worker.
>>53497826695% of the board is maga spam and republican psyops, they even seem to have driven most of the unironic nazis that used to post here awayever since trump first started bombing iran last year, there are a decent number of people sick of the republicans but without an ideological homethe socialism threads that have been showing up for the last few weeks are a breath of fresh air, it's the first time in a long time that i've seen any real debate and discussion here
>>534978293Because there is a fetish for them being produced by one producer in particular, which makes the socially average labor perverted since the labor of others is counted as inadequate and produced only "forgeries", which represents the socially average labor as much higher than it technically should be. This is an extreme form of what Marx called commodity fetishism
>>534978446under the various structures, production did often take on the form of a dialogue from the bottom up and vice versa, sometimes with elected managers etc depending on the period. I don't know what book you're reading but it's inaccurate.you're also seriously overestimating the death toll outside crisis periods
>>534978463these idiots dont even have argumentsi came in to the thread with an olive branch and i got shit in with non argumentspathetic faggotsthe lot of you
>>534978463how long have you been around? I've only been popping in infrequently for a few weeks to see whats what. I'm surprised that all it is is nazis and MAGAs and those homeless republicans you described slinging mud. it seemed more mythologised from the outside
>>534978525The people that owned and profited from the production were oligarchs. Just about the only city treated half fairly under the soviets was tulla.>the mass killings of people was confined to only short crisis periodsSo the holocaust didn't matter and wasn't important?
>>534978607you came into a discussion about economics to say that we should stop talking about economics and go back to talking about woke progressive identity politics like we've been doing ad nauseam for the last ten yearsit's understandable, to me, why people in this thread don't want what you're selling
>>534978737thats a lot of buzzwords for someone with nothing to say
>>534978769govt parasite detected
>>534978739there was no profit in the bourgeois sense of the word, not before 1956 really. and it didn't go into the pockets of 12 people or whatever. wtf are you talking about the holocaust for? wrong country
>>534978021The fed is communist, and produces and funds communist ideologues. America has been mostly communist since wilson. You don't understand what a fascist is, nor what a communist is.
>>534978466Ok, so in that particular case the profit is not surplus labor value, correct?
>>534978901McCarthy was a Bolshevik. The John Birch Society are the vanguard party!
>>534978887I'm pointing out its monstrous to say an ethnic and religious genocide didn't matter because it was a "short crisis period"And yes, most of the profits of labor were concentrated in the hands of the few. That's why the party grew fat, and the worker starved.
>>534978737not long enough to remember the good old dayseveryone has a different opinion about what went wrong, but the way i see it, at some point around 2018-2019 the trump media machine started dedicating a lot of money to spamming this board to deathi think they targeted this place because it was one of the main sources of right-wing criticism of trump's policies
>>534978949There are non-communist elements of the fed, but by and large, post banker takeover it has been a communist organ.
>>534978911It includes surplus labor value. And must. Despite the perversion, the cards are still valued according to labor required to obtain them, for it they took no labor to obtain, they would have no value.
>>534978901you have a very different definition of communism than Marx, or most communists then. in regards to your other message - the holocaust didn't happen in the USSR? there was no ethnic genocide. if you're referring to the ethnic cleansings, those were around concerns in the war, and no group was genocided, just moved around (albeit wrongfully so). all nations did this thoughthe party was the workers, and the workers were the party. outside of the famines, which were caused by the wars/kulaks and weather, no one starved either.
>>534979017I have noticed BAP keeps saying the CIA are communist and it has convinced me that this is the new tactic after the new left lost steam, the CIA realizing it is odious and so labelling communism as a product of itself even though it funded dictators to overthrow socialism and massacre socialists and tried to kill castro over it
>>534979106There was multiple genocides of ukrainian christians because they were ukrainian and christian by the bolsheviks. You've dismissed this as a "short crisis period". Considering your lack of understanding of what communism is, I am not shocked you don't understand who they were, or what they did.
>>534979008you're right wing too? where did everyone migrate to then? I know 8 chan was a thing but I heard it got raideddesu I'm still not used to having identities behind the people posting and stuff. what draws you here?
>>534959831Waaaaaahhhh I'm a lazy grifter engles please pay for my lazy whining worthless ass
>>534979221the holodomor was not waged against the ukrainian christians for being christian or ukrainian. this is a falsification of the class struggles that occured in ukraine
>>534979008>not long enough to remember the good old daysThere were no good old days, 4chan was always shit. I've been here since 2007 and even back then people were saying that /b/ had always been shit.>everyone has a different opinion about what went wrongThat's because it started out wrong and just kept getting wronger. Aside from the Ron Paul days /pol/ basically only ever existed as a plague ward to quarantine off groups of people who migrated to 4chan after being banned from other websites. Be they Stormfront, /r/thedonald, or gamergate or that NAFO thing, it's basically just a leper colony.>everyone has a different opinion about what went wrong, but the way i see it, at some point around 2018-2019 the trump media machine started dedicating a lot of money to spamming this board to deathNaw, that started in 2015.
>>534979339It was indeed done because they were ukrainian and christian. It was a genocide.
>>534979339Nobody believes a word you vomit. Get a job you worthless embarrassment
>>534978463This mongolian throat singing forum is bleeding its userbase left and right. Not that many people are left now.
>>534979391source? the texts from the period seem to indicate it was the kulaks burning grain and resisting collectivisation. especially since this problem went beyond ukraine
>>534979403sorry I'm stopping you from properly enjoying your christian victim fantasy.
>>534979473The texts from the period indicate it was done for religious and ethnic reasons. The soviets had a huge hard on for destroying both christianity, and the slavic peoples. It was in their branding. Official communications say nothing of the reasons in that manner of course, just like there are no official communications for the genocide of jewish people at the hands of the germans. It was all work camps, and shortages in that short crisis period.I think you are just astoundingly unfamiliar with the ideology you carry.
>>534979473It was a bit like the whole thing where they conducted witch hunts for wreckers who were supposedly to blame for shortfalls in production. People didn't want to give up their property and the communist officials didn't want to admit that they hadn't produced as much grain as they were supposed to.
>>534979687Resentful former large landowners almost surely did try to hoard because they knew they could make a killing by reselling it and saw the soviet as a thief not a legitimate community government. It might have been exaggerated as a scapegoat for the famine but it still had to have been rampant and such hoarding would be noticable
>>534979847No, the soviets just wanted to kill workers for religious and ethnic reasons. Considering communists keep killing workers by the millions every time they gain power, that's the most likely explanation.
>>534979847>Resentful former large landowners almost surely did try to hoard because they knew they could make a killing by reselling itWhich was fine and proper.>the soviet as a thief not a legitimate community government.All governments are thieves, taxation is theft.>such hoarding would be noticableThere is nothing wrong with hoarding.
>>534979939Seems unlikely
The bake is in>>534980615>>534980615>>534980615
>>534979596the communists were largely slavs.. and they knew you don't destroy christians by killing them. lenin wrote on this. no one wanted to just genocide a whole ethnicityyou are simply picking up nazi and cold war propaganda and regurgitating it
