The medieval state was called Kievan Rus not Kievan Ukr.
Russians and Ukrainians are for all intents and purposes the same people arbitrarily divided by the happenstance of erstwhile imperial boundaries and the (past and current) cynical machinations of westoids trying to undermine their rival to the east
>>545778467Capitol cities have to be in the middle of the country?
>>545778467Russia can try and take it.
>>545778644Yeah, that's how I see it too. I just don't understand the basis for Ukrainian statehood that's all. If that land was supposed to be part of Ukraine it would've been called Kievan Ukr not Kievan Rus. >>545778752Taking more every day last time I checked
>>545778467Picrel.
>>545778467Hohols are the niggers of europe, anything slavic dey wuz dat
>>545778467>The medieval state was called Kievan Rus not Kievan Ukr.
>>545778776>Taking more every day last time I checkedWhen was that? Might want to check again.
gorilla coco have higher IQ!
The Russians are the communists, the Ukes, are not
>>545778831So Ukraine is Lithuanian now? Still wouldn't justify Ukrainian statehood.
>>545778962Just nowSuriyakmaps
>>545778995Doesn't Zelensky literally look like Trotsky and is also a jew? Lol
>>545778995People who want us to be communist the most are westerners.
>>545778995>>545779129Lol
>>545778467KievanSo its owned by KievSo rus are to he owned by ukranians
>>545779544>So rus are to he owned by ukraniansBut then it would've been called Ukrainian Kievan RusOr Kievan Ukrainian RusBut it's just called Kievan Rus, which means that Kiev is owned by Russia
>>545779495They do not look alike whatsoever?
>>545778467
>>545779628the ukraine lost.you're stupid and poor.
>>545778467who were the rus, they were vikings. they were not some stupid hohol or hivan slavs
>>545779677
>>545779628You have facial blindness
>>545778467Because with the same logic the UK belongs to France due to them being "Saxons"Ie, you are talking about bs a million year ago (that wasn't even relevant during the, 100 year war, or ww1) whilst the current divide is about political systems and which nation you want to belong to.The current Ukrainian/Russia divide pretty much is about Communism/Capitalism, and which side of the Iron Curtain you wanted to belong to. And yes, Russia may not currently be officially "Communist" but in reality, it and the Moscow elite always behaved as if the USSR was its own personal project. And its leftovers still think of themselves as "temporarily shamed" rather than having lost. And are collectivist as fuck, largely surpressing other people from making their own thingsPeople dont give two shits about the Kievan Rus and for that matter dont give two shits about "Bandera" either. Anyone talking in these terms ironically reveals that they are essentially, collectivists, who imagine themselves as glorious leaders painting the map. And then when it turns out that Individualists who actually want to do -other things- because they have THEIR OWN Lives/Busness/Hobbides etc dont like them and start droning their butt they make surprisedikatchuface.jpg
>>545778644>>545778467Its not 900 AD you fucking morons.
>>545778467They did not call themselves "Kievan Rus" either at the time. Kievan Rus is a definition created by historians for convenience. Only Rus.
>>545778467Those vikings really mindfucked everyone in that region.
>>545778467>Ooga booga da N haplogroup Swedes wuz our ancestors not yoursFucking sl*vs
>>545778467>MontenegroSlavs are rootless cattle with no real national identity of your own
>>545778467Does Romania have a claim on all this land?
>>545778467History isn’t a claim to land either, Ukraine is the aggressor though
>>545778831>wild fields>crimeaJust another proof what huge chunk of the Hruckraine(with borders established by bolsheviks) was freed of muslim churkas menace and colonized by Russia and thanks to Russia only.
>>545779964>To France due to them being "Saxons"What the fuck are to talking about
>>545780268linguistically, yes.
>>545779964>Ie, you are talking about bs a million year agoIt's not bs according to St. Augustine's just war doctrine, where a state has the right to restore stolen property. If Kiev belonged to the Rus in the middle ages then Russia has a right to retake it. >>545780232The origins of the Rus is irrelevant. What matters is that Russia is its successor state (obviously, it's in the name), and that Kiev originally belonged to the Rus. Moreover it never belonged to Ukraine.
>>545780268Yes. If they were full citizens at the time of these borders and are still calling themselves Roman (which is what Romanian means), then they have the right to restore the Roman Empire.
>>545778467That little strip of land between Kiev and Crimea was known as the Khazar Empire. A reigion with historic trade routes reaching all the way to the Tyre and Carthage.
>>545780528>What you call yourself gives you claims on reality Ok troon
>>545780444>The origins of the Rus is irrelevantYou made a thread about it you fucking idiot
>>545779964You're clearly clueless about the lore.Ukkies react to the claim we may defend the russian speaking population based on the premise that this is russia in the past, with an idea that we don't belong to here.It's the hohol that is not hesitant to use the retarded historical claim as we DO NOT deserve to think we're interconnected because we're mongrels, finnougric and barbarian. Yet the land was called RUS, the faith was ORTHODOX, and the economics was about exporting GOODS. Seems like Russia, eh? Not hohols who betrayed their faith to catholism, betrayed their dynasty, and all about leeching rich states instead of providing goods like russia does.Come to think about, there is no real and practical reason for hohols to exist, all of their claims work against them. And this thread abuses this cow to get some lols from butthurt hohols and their adherents.
>>545780663There was no self-delusion, the Roman Empire recognised the Romanians as Roman. >>545780722No, I made a thread about whether the land belongs to Rus or not.
>>545780941Holy retard. This has to be the most retarded shithead on the whole 4chan
>>545781028Yes, exactly what I said. The origins of the Rus isn't the topic at all.
>>545778467Moscow was a backwater frontier village when Kiev was a thriving urban capital.There is no such thing as rightful russian land.The rus are a single tribe within the Kievan empire
>>545780892>Not hohols who betrayed their faith to catholismHohols slaughtered Polish Catholics in Galicia and Volhynia, sanctioned by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church.You are clearly talking entirely out of your ass
>>545778644Russians are what happens when you take white people and male them subservient to asiatics for 400 years.Rusification is the fate that awaits us all if china dominates the world.
>>545778467all that ukrainian identity touches becomes shit, disfunctional and brokeneastern slavic population share old rus heritage same as france, germany and few more share carolingianzog (to be precise soros) wanted ukraine to associate with old rus heritage to make it shit thus making russia weaker claiming that its fundation is shit (pigsty, look at ukraine)ukraine as a political & ideological formation did not exist before late 18 century, it was created by austrians and polesits cheaper to buy expandable ukrainian goyim and turn all to shit than trying to bribe academics in russia to publish shitty books and engage in debatesvery simply
>>545781028Also it's quite funny, that you, a Gallo-Italian-Greek mutt, who calls himself Frank, would take issue with peoples taking their names from others. >>545781208>The rus are a single tribe within the Kievan empire>Kievan empireThat's not what it was called. The state was called Rus.
>>545778644>westoidsi.e. jews and masons
>>545781261>Rusification is the fate that awaits us all if china dominates the world.Sounds like paradise
>>545781387vs what if America dominates the world
>>545781413more American "supremacy"shit skins + faggots + jews raping kids
>>545780044And the capital was Kiev.Moscow was the territory of Kiev.You are a rogue province stolen by Mongols.
>>545781208The earlier seats of power were Old Ladoga and Novgorod.
>>545781355The capital was kiev, the pepple who ruled it were from kiev, Moscow, and the muscovites were a primitive tribe on the frontier.Modern Ukrainians are the true Rus.Kiev is the seat of the true Russian empire.Muscovites are Mongol pretenders
>>545781226Clueless about the lore.According to hohols, they came from Kievan rus right into the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. This is what keeps the integrity back to the rus claim. Rus to the polish serfs to the soviet occupation = eu to the core, no asiatic russian federation, y'know.Yet bohdan khmelnitsky asked the russian tsar to defend the orthodoxy in the 17th century, all of the time under polish pans before the orthodoxy was dismissed. Bohdan ruled 3% of the ukrain which is at the current time the russian terriory mostly, lol. And yeah, after that this was the age of russian empire occupation. Modern-day hohols consider the epoch where they were the literal RUS from all the angles as the occupation time.And 3 years of slaughthering poles that were mean to them all the time, specially since the end of ww1, is nothing in the grand scale of things. If you also realise, most of the victims were not poles, but orthodox ukrainians (russians, you know), the claim will be ridiculous.
>>545781476>>545781585>Moscow was the territory of Kiev.Again, the state was called Rus and not Kiev. A city doesn't doesn't inhabit a territory, but a people, and the people from Kiev to Moscow were Rus. >Modern Ukrainians are the true Rus.Awesome, then they should call themselves Russians. I fully agree with that.
>>545778467All 3 countries can claim the heritage of the old Ruthenia. Even Lithuania or Poland can, depending on your region. This is a literal non-issue. if you argue against that you're like those retarded Indian nationalists who deny Proto-Indo-European because >Sanskrit is teh oldest language saar
Russia is a fake country that doesn't exist.
>>545781689>All 3 countries can claim the heritage of the old Ruthenia. Even Lithuania or Poland can, depending on your region.Possibly, but "Ukraine" can't, that's the point
>>545778644the question is are russians kievan rus through continuuity of government or ukraine through territory. In my opinion, even if it's silly to do, only Russia can claim Kievan Rus cause Ukraine is just at most 19-20th invention of russians living in that territory and starting to come up with retarded thoughts that they are better/different than regular russians.
>>545781646They should call themselves what they want.Apparently they don't want to be called russians
Lmao both these cunts are Mongolians camping on Yamnaya clay none of them speak proto indo European and they can't even make a decent fucking wagon
>>545781476The old capital of Japan is Kyoto. Now it's Tokyo.
>>545778467Your flag has a "negro" in it, wtf dude. Weird flex that.
>>545781754Ukraine is a relatively young nation but I don't see how that matters. Palestinian wasn't an identity before mid 20th century either because they were a part of the larger arabic caliphate and didn't need to differentiate themselves except as a regional group. Same thing here
>>545781261>Russians are what happens when you take white people and male them subservient to asiatics for 400 years.you are repeating lithuanian and polish anti-rus meme that was invented when lithuanians lost a war against russia to represent slavs and orthodox christians. Since then lithuania united with poland and was seething that russia is mongols and not russia but asiatic muscovites. Unironically ukrainiaj territories has more asiatic dna cause there mongols raped and killed where in northern regions they just took taxes.
>>545778776>last I checkedAugust 2026 then? Because Russia lost ground since September.
>>545781890>Ukraine is a relatively young nationSo they have no historical claim to the land then. That's what the thread is about.
Like every noble from Ruthenia in the Poland-Lithuania self identified as Ruthenian. Technically the same word as Russian even back then. Austria-Hungary also used the term "Ruthenian" up until WW1.Politics can influence how nationalities and ethnicities view themselves. Yes Ukrainians and Russians are very similar but it's for each of the nations to decide that, not just for the bigger of them. I could see Ukraine naturally getting closer and closer to Russia if Putin didn't start killing Ukrainians he loves so much
>>545781908Not what my maps say but ok. Won't matter when the war ends. >>545782111>I could see Ukraine naturally getting closer and closer to Russia if Putin didn't start killing Ukrainians he loves so muchWas the Maidan before or after Putin started killing Ukrainians?
>>545782023about 500 years isn't enough for you? Ukrainians didn't split off Russians, both split off from the same Ruthenian ethnicity around that same time.
>>545782200Show me a 500 year old map with Ukraine on it
>>545782234you're a fucking moron or a shill.
>>545782200Also Russia didn't split off from anything. Russia just means Rus.
>>545782200no, ukrainians didn't split off kievan rus. Moscow continued from kievan rus into 20th century. Ukraine split off from russian empire.
It's Kievan Rus, not Muscovy Rus, which was a completely seperate entity.
>>545782265>Ukraine existed 500yrs ago>>ok show me where>noooo, you're a moron or a shillkek
just because Muscovy took the name "Russia" for themselves and the rest that stayed under poland-lithuaniua kept calling themselves Ruthenians but were subjects to king in krakow/warsaw doesn't make them magically more valid
>>545782299But they're both Rus and not Ukr.
>>545782327>doesn't make them magically more validYes actually it does. If you abandon the claim on something you lose it. And like I said, the Ukrainians are free to start calling themselves Russian again.
>>545780354Ukraines borders were established by germans you dumb negro.
>>545782272North Korea calls themselves Joseon while south korea calls themselves Hangook. Because the naming, are they thus the only true successors of the Joseon dynasty?What about netherlands and belgium? Belgica is the oldest name mentioned latin times while low lands is the newer name for the same exact region. that must mean they're the "less fake" country right
>>545782344If we are playing that game that makes you a nigger.
>>545782316I said the nation existed. a nation doesn't have to have a sovereign state to exist. especially back 500 years ago when ethno-national states weren't as important as they are now
>>545782390Joseon sounds like Jason = jewish.Hangook sounds like Gook = true successor.
>>545782327lol, it was polish-lithuanian commonwealth who gave russians name Muscovites to delegitimize them. You are just eating the meme like an idiot 500 years later.
>>545778467Russia isn't even going to exist by the end of the century
>>545781476>Moscow was the territory of Kiev.Rus has shattered due to feudal disputes prior to Moscow becoming city, kek. The formal end fixed in papers happened in 1097. After which Kiev gradually lost it's importance, becoming a ground for feudal wars and intrigues, keeping only symbolic value akin to Aachen for Frank empire successor states. In 12 century Vladimir(200km north-east of Moscow) became a main center of power in Rus. Moscow, when it was their time to grow, funneled it's legitimacy from Vladimir, not from now irrelevant Kiev. Tldr Kiev is Aachen, Moscow is Paris/Wien.Not like murrican would ever understand the world history nuances, anyway.
>>545782390>Because the naming, are they thus the only true successors of the Joseon dynasty?Yes.>Belgica is the oldest name mentioned latin times while low lands is the newer name for the same exact region. that must mean they're the "less fake" country rightNo, because they stopped calling themselves Belgians. If they had kept calling themselves Belgians from Roman times until now they would obviously be the more legitimate country.
>>545782511>>Because the naming, are they thus the only true successors of the Joseon dynasty?>Yes.congrats you're a moron
>>545782461You just gotta believe, right.Hohols betrayed the dynasty, the faith, the foreign policy of rus, the economics of rus to the scale where they have nothing to do with the statehood of rus yet somehow they are their spawn?Hohols are like gypsies, no belongings of their own, history stolen and all teh gold has been given by others.No wonder they are used as a meatshield to die for the others.
and remember ukrainians did call themselves and were called Ruthenians until about WWI.Manchus definitely are the same as Jurchens, just because they changed their name doesn't mean anything. Japan changing their name from Wa to Nihon doesnt change anything either.
>>545778467Yeah, that's because all the east Slavs are Rus, but only some are russians (russian meaning Rus+asians
>>545782461>a nation doesn't have to have a sovereign state to existIt does if it wants to lay a sovereign claim. I'm not arguing whether Ukrainians exist, but whether they have a claim to their land. >>545782542Then all of North Korea are morons as well>>545782698>Japan changing their name from Wa to Nihon doesnt change anything either.Because there is no nation with the previous name
>>545782693your entire post is driven by being nationalistically mad at ukrainianstry to get some open minded perspectiveaccept that nations can and will appear. >betrayed the dynasty>the faith, >the foreign policy of rus>economics of rus to the scaleyou **literally** just described what the soviets did to the Russian Empire and yet no one ever claims that one wasn't successor to the other
>>545782754>gay sex cartoonsI see EU values have arrived in Poland
>>545782698>ukrainians did call themselves and were called RutheniansThey did not. Ruthenia bullshit was entirely created and used by Poland for ideological war purposes, it's artificial entirely. I know they push that shit into your throats in school curriculum even today, but it's not like you should spread this on others. None will believe it anyway.
>>545778467We created russia and now we want it back.
>>545782809>land claim = same name on a mapthis is the most retarded thing i've ever readpakistan is just Muslim india, they do have the claim to the ancient indus civilization and to all history of punjab kashmir etc. just because india took the name doesn't erase history
>>545782834>yet no one ever claims that one wasn't successor to the otherThe whole White Russian diaspora claims it>>545782864Feel free to take it anytime
>>545782856by "invented by poland" you mean "used by actual ruthenians who just were subjects to the polish king"
>>545782834>accept that nations can and will appearNot if the """nation""" in question is a Jew project to sow discord and kill white people.
>>54577895390 is not a flex
>>545778467It was called Ros, or Rossia in Greek annals. Same word we use for Russia today.The whole """"Kievan"""" is historian propaganda just like "Byzantium"
>>545782856"Ruthenia" is just the Latin mispronunciation of "Russia".
>>545782952Locals called themselves, until they were ukrainized by hohol nationalists(with help of bolsheviks), PУCИHЫ(rusins, not ruthenian polish bullshit you spread here). Rusin is a just local dialect of name pycкий(ruskiy, later becoming russkiy, when second S was added to it during russian language evolution).None but you, polacks, ever talk about this ruthenia rubbish, notice that.
>>545782903>>land claim = same name on a mapYes that's exactly what it means. Try going to the city registry and saying "I own this piece of land because I lived there, but my name isn't on the map". You'll be laughed out of the room. Ukraine's claim to the land goes back to 1990 or 1920 (depending on how you view the USSR), but it doesn't have a historical claim.
>>545783133Did I invent the distinction between pyccкий and poccийcкий?
>>545783079Thanks for the factz Greekbro
>>545783205>Try going to the city registry and saying "I own this piece of land because I lived there, but my name isn't on the map".by that logic a daughter isn't related to her parents because she married and changed her name. What kind of retarded logic is that. Companies, people, nations, etc etc change names all the time
>>545778831Too many spelling mistakes.Novgorod is a name of a city, not of a region. Same with Rostov and Ryazan'.Couldn't be bothered to squint my eyes further, but the artist probably did that with every region."Muscovy" is not cognate with any Russian word, does that faggot Elon live rent free in artist's head or what.
>>545778831>Love from Nogay Horde
>>545779001lithuanians basically "liberated" empty lands after mongols slaughtered them. This was because rus in current Ukraine refused to pay tax to mongols - cities got razed and people killed, Vladimir/Moscow didn't even fight, agreed to pay tax - were left alone. That's why lithuanians had to fight Moscow then, cause they weren't wiped by mongols.
>>545783338>by that logic a daughter isn't related to her parents because she married and changed her nameWe're talking about states and land here, not people and companies, so don't change the topic. Besides while your daughter is related to you she legally (in Traditional jurisdictions) belongs to her husband's household, so name = property applies there too.
>>545779028Hohol
>>545783133Even for a russian churka pig it takes a real big stretch to justify how rusin ≠ ruthen, but = russky.
>>545780444>according to St. Augustine'sLmao
>>545783591so pakistan can't claim ancient indian history that happened within their borders because they didn't get the name "india"
>>545778467Like your pic suggests dumbass luganda and crimea are not Russia so why does Russia lays claim on that?
>>545778831Reasonable borders.
>>545778467Novgorod was the original capital of the Rurikids. Then they moved it to Kiev which was originally a Khazarian border fort the Rurikids turned into a town and their new capital. Then Kievan Rus split into several different principalities bickering with each other until the Mongols invaded them all. The mongols never occupied or annexed the Rus principalities entirley. Just made them pay tax to the Khan and do other humiliation ritual shit. Moscow grew into a new center for the Rurikids during this time. Then they threw off the Mongols and united all the principalities into the tsardom with Moscow as capital. The Rurikids lasted until 1598 as a direct hereditary line (Vasili IV does not count since he had no real power). Unless either Putin or Zelensky are related to the Rurikids this topic is a dead end. I doubt either of them are so it all becomes nonsense really.
>>545783497this
