Why are you not vegan annons? There are no ethical arguments against veganism. If you are not vegan you are uninformed, a hypocrite or a psychopath. Please start give me a counterpoint to the name the trait argument.
I've tried but I have recurring stomach issues and I really struggle to get enough calories without meat. I'm sorry.
>>84375809>Why are you not vegan annons?Meat tastes good.>There are no ethical arguments against veganism. Yes there is. The animal is dead and it tastes good and food tasting good alleviates suffering because it releases dopamine.>It you are not vegan you are uninformed, a hypocrite or a psychopath. Asooooooomptiooooooor>Please start give me a counterpoint to the name the trait argumentI eat plants too
>>84375809I don't make money or have a choice over what I eat. Parents cooking up already dead meat so, there's nothing wrong in there.Eating meat can be fine as well as long as they are taken out with anesthetics or similar first. Animals like chicken don't have any future oriented plans and their relatives don't get sad over their death. No one is harmed in the process if they are killed with anesthetics. All necessary nutrients are not easy to get otherwise.
>>84375809i'm eating 1lb of chicken, and some sauteed broccoli right now. u jelly?
Nothing wrong with killing animals for food. It got us to where we are.
I was vegan for five years and then went back to dairy, then poultry, then everything.Unfortunately, the reasoning behind becoming vegan never left me. I have just accepted a certain unavoidable amount of horror in being conscious and human.
I care more about the wellbeing of humans, and especially my own wellbeing, than the wellbeing of other animals
>>84375809Most vegans are on pills and vitamins because a vegan diet is not nutritional at all
>>84375809Because I live on 100 acres of land and kill the animals myself for the purpose of eating every last bit of it.
Cholesterol is required for the synthesis of hormones. Gylcine is required for collagen productionSynthetic B12 is an ineffective bandaidThe concept of "complete protein" meals is disingenuousRuminant animals naturally filter out toxins before they get to youWe evolved to eat animalsSuffering is the default experience of all living organisms Any animal you spare would happily commit violence to meet its evolutionary drivesTo abandon your own is arrogance To think of humans as something greater than animalsMore moral and pure. Above them. This is hubris, snobbery, narcissism, and vanity
>>84375905Deer meat? Gramps own some land. Always killed to eat. Never bought from the store once for meat. Delicious.
>>84375809>There are no ethical arguments against veganismThe animals are dead anyway so like eat them or they died for nothing
>>84375916Elk, moose, deer etc anything I can find. I make killer jerky. No pun intended.
>>84375889Eeexactly, vegetarian and vegan diets are unsustainable without those pills.
>>84375809>Why are you not vegan annons? Because I have an ethical argument against it.>There are no ethical arguments against veganism.Yes there are.>If you are not vegan you are uninformed, a hypocrite or a psychopath.So, in other words, you think veganism correct axiumatically, and it can't be falsified? Why argue with you? You admit there's no condition by which you'd change your mind?But, for my entertainment:Being vegan means accepting responsibility for a systemic problem one isn't responsible for. Vegans put the blame of animal cruelty directly on the consumer. To be vegan is like buying an electric car or trying to reduce one's carbon footprint. The problem of mass animal cruelty is really out of your hands. Your diet isn't going to change much about the meat factories that are legally allowed to persist. All being vegan is going to do is make you personally feel better and like that your hands are clean and other people's hands are dirty for eating meat.It's something I like to call blame laundering. If a bif business can get the consumers to blame themselves for buying their products, then the businesses don't get legislated. Lots of humans are going to eat meat if it's available. It's in our nature as omnivores to desire to do so. We shouldn't be letting grocery stores and meat factory owners launder their responsibility in the public's eye.Whenever you're publically vegan and for ethical ressons rather than health ones, you're worsening the very problem you state you're trying to resolve.
>>84375939Kek I bet this faggot vegan anon would say some shit like "ohhhhhh you're so immoral for instantly stopping all potential suffering from the existence of this being to create something that distracts from suffering and creates good to another existing being"
>>84375813calories in 100g of chicken> aprox 160 kcalcalories in 100g of black beans>aprox 140 kcaljust eat 15% more beans than chicken?>>84375840If you have no choice fair enough. >Eating meat is fine if anesthetics used first.I'll agree with you for the sake of argument. this is not how animals are killed today. They are abused, gassed, electrocuted and more. So you shouldnt eat meat until that day comes when animals are killed with anaesthetics>>84375851jelly i could never
>>84375959not OP, but if you'd vote to reduce or eliminate needless animal suffering even if it'd increase taxes to implement or cover cost - then I'd count you as vegan. you agree with the core concern
>>84375971>for the sake of argumentany argument against?
>>84375964Shut up. I don't even disagree with veganism. I kill to eat and am a great shot. If a saw a deer suffering with 3 legs I would kill it and eat it. Factory farms are evil. I'm not replying to you anymore you sound retarted.
>>84375809no lives matter.nothing has needs or should ever have rights, rights are a human made mind game to get you to surrender to inferiors who will drag you down to nothing. if you are strong you should use that strength for ANYTHING you want.whatever is strong will continue to exist, if existence is good then strength is good.
>>84375971trust me I've tried, I like to eat vegetarian and still do when I can but meat and dairy make me feel so much better
>>84375987Damn dude you are literally agreeing with me but ok
>Why are you not vegan annons?1) I'm unconvinced that the vegan diet is viable and equal to a diet with meat. I don't trust your research on this topic so don't bother putting it forward.2) My going vegan would not change anything. If I was the last person alive eating meat, I would go vegan, but since I'm not, I don't see any utility in going vegan. It would be a pointless toll on my quality of life that would save exactly 0 animals.3) I don't believe animal suffering is a big problem. I'm okay with animals suffering for human benefit. To be perfectly honest, if I had to eat humans for some reason, I would make peace with that very quickly as well.4) To me, going vegan is like being a death camp manager and deciding to spare 4-5 people out of thousands because they're cute and it's kind of convenient. Yeah maybe you're better than the guy who killed 100%, but is it really a material difference, or did you just make a small and comfortable compromise? The moral highground doesn't really hold up unless you cushion it with 1000 self-serving caveats.
>>84375809>hes an immoral vegan instead of a tuber only nudist chad who refuses to step on insectsDrop the moral posturing while you remain an immoral monster>noooooo i cant just give up fossil fuels and electricity! I NEEEEEEED to use it!!!In your next life ill be sure not to step on you, the insect
>>84375876yea the sheer amount of suffering that goes into everything is terrifying.Shame you fell off the saddle I hope you become veagn again we can allways strive to reduce the suffering >>84375889>vegan diet is not nutritional at allnot true there are plenty of healthy vegans you just need to eat more than 3 diffrent foods.Even if you have to take a pill the amount of animal suffering a pill avoids should be worth it to any compasionate person>>84375905The immoral action is killing the animal the fact you eat all of it is not important. it is not moraly right to kill something that is able to suffer regardless of what you do with the corpse.
>>84375809I like to exert my domination on the animal kind
i have been for almost 10 years.i have gotten lazy with cooking, i am having a block of tofu with air fried potatoes tonight
>>84375971i agree that factory farming is evil and needs to stop. however, i will not sacrifice my own health for a pointless protest. also, i buy free range whenever i can
>>84376033>Objective morality>Opinion discardedI will kill an animal in a second, lights out, and then eat all of it because that animal would have likey died suffering from diseases or a painful horrific death for days otherwise on my families land.
>>84375809Because vegans are anti-nature and anti-humanThey are only based on anger
>>84375973>not OP, but if you'd vote to reduce or eliminate needless animal suffering even if it'd increase taxes to implement or cover costI would be swayed by candidates who were against animal cruelty, yes.>then I'd count you as vegan. you agree with the core concernKek. You're absurd. So, i'm a vegan except I eat meat? Why consider me vegan, and not vegetarian?
>>84375906>Cholesterol is required for the synthesis of hormonesThe liver produces cholesterol all by its self>Gylcine is required for collagen productionMany amino acids can be made from other amino acids in the body glycine can be made from serene. Serene is readily found in vegan foods.>Synthetic B12 is an ineffective bandaidB12 is B12 the body doesn't care what food the chemicals come from>The concept of "complete protein" meals is disingenuousIt's true the amino acids are there in the foods i dont know what to say to this.>Ruminant animals naturally filter out toxins before they get to you???>We evolved to eat animalsWe can do what is ethical not what we evolved to do. We have the luxury of higher thought and can avoid causing more suffering>Suffering is the default experience of all living organisms May or may not be true i dont live in peoples minds. But there are levels to suffering i would rather stub my toe than be tortured for the rest of my life. we can work to reduce suffering.>Any animal you spare would happily commit violence to meet its evolutionary drivessee "we evolved to eat animals">To abandon your own is arrogance I havent moved from eating cows to people. my own should be fine.>To think of humans as something greater than animals. More moral and pure. Above them. This is hubris, snobbery, narcissism, and vanityI try to respect them as peers, I would not eat my peers. we are not purer than animals we just have greater ability to reason and act to realise we dont have to inflict suffering on them just for pure pleasure of it.long one sry
>>84375809you're literally wasting your breath, I don't think anything short of force-feeding someone either LSD or MDMA and tossing them into a factory farm to be engulfed by the misery that's necessary for them to be able to consume meat is going to break the cognitive dissonance inherent with being a carnivore. Until then they're just going to keep jumping through their mental hoops to justify their selfishness no matter what you say.Humans fucking suck.
>>84375918The animals raised and killed in farms are specifically because there is a demand for meat if the demand for meat went away they wouldnt be born and so wouldn't suffer. >>84375959Just do both. Minimise the impact you do and show the horrible things corporations do. The idea the individual action (on a collective scale) cannot change anything plays into the hands of the status quo and forgets historical collective individual actions (eg sufferage) that caused massive change.>>84375981it is not compassionate to kill something that can suffer and live a longer life of happiness.
>>84376329Vegans are anti-human. No lie will cover that upIt's not for animals It's because you are angry at humans
>eating raw alaskan pollock while reading this thread
>>84376008This is a dangerous line of thought this can be used to justify genocide or rape. These should be reprehensible to anyone>>843760281) I exist I am healthy2) see middle reply>>843763293) if you truly believe this do you think kicking a dog just for the fun of it is acceptable. its for human benefit.4) It is always better to do something than nothing. Sticking to the nazi analogy it's more like trying to combat the genocide and being against the nazis whilst still having to live in germany vs actively supporting the genocide>>84376041King shit, I have eaten just a raw block of tofu before and bread for dinner.
>>84376435>1) I exist I am healthyOnly one of those things are true
>>84376065>Objective moralityEvery moral framework has to make something arbitrary up at some point. Complete moral relativism can be used to justify anything. Ive chosen to draw a line at animal suffering. We cannot know what is in the future we wouldnt kill a person if had a feeling that they could maybe suffer in the future>>84376077>>84376344I have nothing but love brothers
Finally reached the end thank fuck GO VEGAN
I agree with you OP but not for ethical reasons, only spiritual ones. >>84375840Animals do get sad over each other's death though. Of all the arguments I've seen that's one of the most blatantly incorrect ones. >>84375889Vegan is entirely different than vegetarianism. Vegetarian still allows for milk, eggs, and cheese, which has all the b12 and other such things one needs. >>84375918I went vegetarianism a few days ago. I have several pieces of meat still in the freezer. I'll consume those as the demand has already been effected on the factory / supply line, but i won't buy more until I decide to not be vegetarian anymore.
>>84375959>Being vegan means accepting responsibility for a systemic problem one isn't responsible for. Vegans put the blame of animal cruelty directly on the consumer. To be vegan is like buying an electric car or trying to reduce one's carbon footprint. The problem of mass animal cruelty is really out of your hands. Your diet isn't going to change much about the meat factories that are legally allowed to persist. All being vegan is going to do is make you personally feel better and like that your hands are clean and other people's hands are dirty for eating meat.Buying eggs equates out to roughly 300 chickens alive solely for your sake; the numbers have been run. You're correct in that you wouldn't change the existence of factories on your own, but if everyone did so the factories would close. You have a small part; much like how many less cows are killed in India as a result of mass societal adoption of certain religious views. >>84375971100g chicken = 30g protein100g black beans = 8gIf you're going to attempt to argue or provide alternatives, you should do a better job. To the other guy, if you struggle with calories just add more butter or olive oil to whatever you cook / eat. Bread with olive oil and vinegar is my preferred snack.
>>84376507what are the spiritual reasons? I havent met any people vegan/vegetarian for spiritual reasons. Im interested to hear your beliefs
>>84375809I am too weakwilled. Also I have personal issues to solve first like my mental stability. I would like if vegan foods became the norm, then I wouldn't have to try.
>>84376489>Ive chosen to draw a line at animal suffering>Wants me to not end all potential suffering and allow guaranteed suffering.
I encourage anons to check out this vegan chef on YouTube. he makes stuff that genuinely looks fucking delicioushttps://www.youtube.com/@TheeBurgerDude/shorts
>>84376154>B12 is B12 the body doesn't care what food the chemicals come fromThat's not true at all. It's not a synthetic or natural difference but a chemical one. B12 is -cobalamin. The two main ones here will be methylcobalamin and cyanocobalamin, though there are others. Methylcobalamin is the more bioavailable one, however it can be from either natural or artificial sources. Cyanocobalamin however is only artificial sources. The body does prefer one over the other, and what you meant is "natural or artificial variants of the exact same kind of b12 are treated the same", but no not all b12 is created equal.
>>84376533>If you're going to attempt to argue or provide alternativesmb bro, He was only talking about calories those are just what first came to my head. if protein is a large concern for someone lentils have a pretty good protein 17g per 100g plants will never beat meat in terms of protein density, the amount of proein availble there is plenty to be healthy.
>>84376579>vegans have to mold their plants into the shape of animal foods to cope with how badly they want to eat real foodWhat an awful existence that must be
>>84376630>animal foods natural come in burger shapes!
>>84376554Also I did try for a time to limit my intake of meat, and it was great and I discovered interesting, kind people, and tasty foods. But then my mother died in her sleep (I ignored a 4chan copypasta), it took attention from everything.
veganism is just another meme
>>84376329>Just do both.It's not possible. One of the maxims you commit to when you choose to be vegan is "I will take responsibility for the animal cruelty".>Minimise the impact you do and show the horrible things corporations do.The two shouldn't be put in the same sentence as if they're comprable degrees of awful. Again, your blame laundering for the mean factory owners.>The idea the individual action (on a collective scale) cannot change anything plays into the hands of the status quo and forgets historical collective individual actions (eg sufferage) that caused massive change.You're only looking at the rare times it worked, and it only did so because people eventually put the blame on the correct people. Slavery existed as a personal choice for the longest time because slave owners would say "if you don't like slavery, then don't own a slave."The massive change of the civil rights movement was largely due to technology changing and images of cruelty spreading rather than people taking individual responsibility for what's the fault of businesses. >>84376533>Buying eggs equates out to roughly 300 chickens alive solely for your sake; the numbers have been runThey weren't for my sake. They would have been produced anyway. But, either way, that's not the point I'm making. How many chickes do you suppose are alive for the factory owner's sake?>You're correct in that you wouldn't change the existence of factories on your own, but if everyone did so the factories would close. If.>You have a small part; much like how many less cows are killed in India as a result of mass societal adoption of certain religious views. It would be cool if we could get the factory owners to adopt those religious views. Then they'd kill themselves and there wouldn't be any cows killed. Why do you want us to use the worst solution that's probably not going to do more than make "less" cows be farmed?And if the meat industry were outlawed, then it would become taboo anyway
>>84376630Most vegans will admit that we like the taste of meat, we don't eat it because of ethical reasons. Plus do you really think vegan meat is less processed than most of the "meat" that you eat. Picrel is what hot dogs are made of. You're really gonna tell me that vegan meat is disgusting but THIS is real food??
>>84376575>wants me to allow guaranteed suffering.I do want you to end the guaranteed suffering of animal agriculture.>Wants me to not end all potential suffering I don't understand what you mean by this
>>84376540I'm not fully invested or committed to it yet, but look into Jainism. The issue with the ethical argument is that one can entirely mitigate suffering with a clean and fast kill. Anesthesia would get into the body and would potentially give complications, but would also allow for the "lack of suffering" argument. However, even if there isn't suffering, there is the still the act of violence which is the killing itself, and one of the tenets is non violence.
>>84376626Yeah it's fine, not a big deal and you're not doing badly so far, I'm just a bit sensitive to bad arguments on the topic because it can turn people away on the subject. In fairness to you he never mentioned protein, I just assumed because meat. But yeah calorically g for g carbs = protein, but fats blow them both out of the water. That said seed oils will just make people sick so never recommend those. Sadly, that's the fats used in most meat alternatives like beyond meat.
>>84375809Why should we treat animals the same way we treat other humans?
>>84376720you shouldn't, just leave them alone to do what they want, if they try to harm humans then kill them
>>84376693Processing has nothing to do with what I said, and I don't eat any of that. When I said "real food" I was referring to any animal product in any form at all. Even the most processed animal foods are superior to everything vegans eat, and vegans must agree seeing as so many of them try to replicate highly processed versions of animal foods. Just know that there are more reasons to desire those foods than taste/texture alone; it is also nutritional
>>84376688>"I will take responsibility for the animal cruelty".I take responsibility for what I can control, my actions. Calling out and campaigning for change on the corporate level while living my beliefs on a individual level i see no hypocrisy in thisHow do you think i should go about affecting change. You seem to think personal sentiment plays no role in societal change, but societal beliefs are just a sum of lots of personal beliefsam i misunderstanding?
>>84376697I've heard of Jainism only know some of the stuff from the wikipedia page. I heard a story that they dont eat root vegetables as harvesting them would harm the insects thought that was a based belief
>>84375809I am vegan and been for almost 10 years. But I always say:>If you were vegan and stopped being vegan because of a 4chan post, you are an idiot.>If you were not vegan and became vegan because of a 4chan post, you are an idiot.I say the same about political positions. Only an idiot would take the things posted here seriously.
>>84376717no worries bro some people are very bad faith when it comes to veganism. This thread is helping me practice some arguments.>But yeah calorically g for g carbs = protein, but fats blow them both out of the water. good info thx
>>84376779NTA but your argument is self defeating upon reflection. >I take responsibility for what I can control, my actions. Your actions (buying meat from the store) are thus funding and providing demand for the practice which you disagree with (factory farming).I'm not even saying you shouldn't, just own up to it. "Directly because of me, several lives are lost every month; I pay the ones responsible for this".>How do you think I should go about effecting changeStart small as with all tasks. Change your diet, and go from there.
>>84376820bro im OP (A v*gan) no friendly fire
>>84376800Yeah that's uh... certainly something. I guess in theory it would be fine if you grew them in a sterile environment with no insects? I mean I'm no ascetic monk (yet), they also advocate for celibacy and minimizing attachment.
>>84376833Kek, my bad, reply chain gets fuzzy sometimesOne day I bet I will make the following greentext>be me>vegan>I fucking hate vegans reeeee
>>84376837>they also advocate for celibacy and minimizing attachmentdont know about celibacy but minimising attachment seems like a good goal to have it seems like a surefire way out of the cycle of suffering.
>>84376779>Calling out and campaigning for change on the corporate level while living my beliefs on a individual level i see no hypocrisy in this Well that's not what you're doing. If you were actually living your beliefs, then you would eat meat because you wouldn't launder corprate blame for free.>How do you think i should go about affecting change.Voting. Spreading awareness about the futility of veganism and the necessity of legal change. Exposing meat factory owners to the public. >You seem to think personal sentiment plays no role in societal change,No, I do. That's why I'm making this argument. Your personal sentiment is misplaced. >societal beliefs are just a sum of lots of personal beliefs They aren't. That's wishful thinking. Societal beliefs are the simplist narratives possible to explain most people's suffering. The Nazis blame the Jews. The feminists blame the men. BLM blames the whites. Commies blame the borgeosie. Capitalists blame the socialists. And who do vegans blame? Vegans blame you. What kind of societal change do you think will come from that?Your first mistake, maybe, was thinking the public zeitgeist is a democratic phenomenon where eveyone gets a say. No. The public as a whole is incapable of that level nuance.
>>84376154>long one sryDon't feel bad, I didn't read. Enjoy your depression and rapid aging
>>84375809I like meat. I don't care if it's unethical
>>84376962I like rape. I don't care if it's unethical>>84376947you're my next victim btw
>>84376489>I have nothing but loveExcept when you don't against humans and nature
